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Let's try my hand at Gauntlet thread:

This is NJO Luke at his peak, who will face the following duos, trios, quadrupos below:

NO REST!

1) Jango Fett, Boba Fett, Canderous Ordo, Han Solo
2) Quinlan Vos, Depa Billaba, Qui-Gon Jinn, and Grievous
3) Dooku, Sidious, and Asajj Ventress
4) Yoda, Mace, and Obi-Wan Kenobi
5) Jacen Solo, Revan, Anakin Skywalker, and Durge
6) He makes it!

I'd say he would have the hardest time at 5. Obviously if he gets past that he wins.

Note that he doesn't get any rest between matches...

I say he loses at 3. If by some miracle he makes it past that id say he definatly loses at 4. NJO Luke is uber but he is not unstoppable.

I would he :might: lose at 4 from exhaustion and perhaps any injuries.

I agree with Rampant Ox. 3 and 4 would be difficult if he had full rest (he'd certainly make it but it'd be difficult). I'm assuming it's ROTS Sidious and Obsession Asajj Ventress, btw. Yeah, if he makes it past 3 then 4 does him in. 5 is suicide...

Luke could tear Ventres, Obi-wan and Dooku like paper with no effort, so he'd probably make it to four at least....

If by some chance he makes it past 4, there's no way he makes it all the way given the fact he has no time to heal, or rest; personally, though, I'd say he'd stop at 4 after a decent fight.

Well, he won't take too long with the first couple, with Depa being the only one to present anything of an annoyance. But, I say he runs into trouble at three. Ventress is extremely skilled with a saber, and while she's obviously not surviving Skywalker for more than a few seconds on her own, I don't see why she couldn't hinder him with Sidious and Dooku - who happen to be two of the most powerful Force users of the era - launching Force attacks and debris from a distance. I'm pretty sure he can get past this, but it's not going to be easy at all, and it's probably going to put him in bad shape for 4.

Here, he's likely going to have a much easier time if he can keep the Jedi at a distance and take them down via the Force. However, considering the difficulty even Sidious - fighting from higher ground and constantly on the retreat - had with keeping away a lone Yoda, I doubt Luke's going to be able to pull this off - especially considering he'd just have come out of a rough battle with the Sith - and so will have to engage all three in saber combat. Obi-Wan isn't going to be quickly rendered useless with a lightsaber alone, given his defensive prowess, but it's not beyond Luke at this point to floor him with a quick Force attack or body blow like he did UnuThul. This is going to be next to impossible with either Yoda or Mace wailing on him from the opposite direction, but for the sake of argument we'll say he pulls it off. Now, Yoda and Mace, both of whom have more experience in combat, aren't going down so easily. Luke's only real chance here is to play to their one glaring weakness, which is the fact that they won't be able to mesh. Yoda's Ataru requires a hell of a lot of room to operate to its fullest extent, and while that alone'll piss Luke off, it likely won't be enough to overwhelm him. So if Mace can't assist Yoda, the muppet will go down after a grueling battle, leaving it a one-on-one. Personally, I can see Luke winning this scenario, as he has shown incredible fortitude in TUF, but he's going to be exhausted by this point, and against a Vaapad master armed with the shatterpoint ability he just doesn't stand much of chance.

This scenario is also being incredibly generous to Luke, whatwith the assumption that he'll take out Kenobi early on in the game and also manage to play Yoda and Mace into weaker positions. If either one of these points fail him, however, I don't see him doing too well at all. He falls at 4 is my verdict.

1) Jango Fett, Boba Fett, Canderous Ordo, Han Solo

I wouldn't be surprised if Han got a lucky shot in and killed him.

Luke wins.

2) Quinlan Vos, Depa Billaba, Qui-Gon Jinn, and Grievous

GG gets pwned with the Force. The rest go down after a few minutes of saber combat.

3) Dooku, Sidious, and Asajj Ventress

Asajj gets pwned with the Force fast. Dooku was strong enough to drop her to her knees with relatively little effort. Luke should be able to finish her with the Force quickly, which is good, because she'd complicate things in a lightsaber fight.

So, with Asajj out of the way, Dooku engages Luke in a saber fight while Sidious hammers away with Force powers. Assuming that this is both ROTS Dooku and Sidious, Luke wins. Dooku lasts a good minute or so before Luke manages to cut him down and then Sidious taken apart when he's on his own.

4) Yoda, Mace, and Obi-Wan Kenobi

Like Asajj, Obi-wan gets killed in the first few seconds by Force attacks. Luke should be able to keep from having to fight both Mace and Yoda for most of the fight and one of them eventually goes down. After the first goes down, the second much more easily.

5) Jacen Solo, Revan, Anakin Skywalker, and Durge

Luke dies here. Fast.
He's going to be VERY tired after his previous fights and at his peak Jacen rivals him. With Revan and Anakin on the scene Luke would probably go down even at full strength. He doesn't stand a chance in the condition he will be in at this point.

Jacen doesn't rival Luke, what are you talking about.

Yeah he does. Go read the LOTF books.

It's called "burden of proof."

I've said it half a dozen times in other threads. If he continues to ingore the evidence that I've provided there is nothing more that I can do.

Jacen does rival LotF Luke. That he was able to engage a Force phantom whose powers rivaled that of the real Luke and was not pushed to his absolute limit, as well as the fact that either Bloodlines or Tempest labels him as "more powerful than all the others except for Luke" (referring to Jedi), would be good enough to say that Jacen rivals Luke in power - though, for the moment, he would still be defeated by him in single combat.

I would like to point out, though, that I don't consider LotF Luke to be as powerful as NJO Luke, even though the passage of time would logically dictate that Luke would have progressed in power or at the very least have remained the same. Author inconsistencies seemed to have made him weaker (like a post-DE/JA Luke having serious difficulty with a single modified droideka with Mara on his side). For that reason alone, I doubt Jacen is even on par with NJO or DN Luke.

Alright then, how would you rate Jacen at his peak in comparison to Luke in TUF and Swarm War?

Luke is at his peak in the TUF, and if you're going to make an outrageous claim like "Jacen rivals Luke", at least define "rivals" for us.

Luke is at his peak is TUF? Prove it. Rivals, as in, is close to in power. And why do you call it outrageous.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Alright then, how would you rate Jacen at his peak in comparison to Luke in TUF and Swarm War?

I'd rank Jacen on par with the Top PT guys. But not much farther. I'd say Yoda or Sidious as of RotS could beat him, and Mace and Dooku would go down after an extremely hard fight.

Well that's a surprise. You rank Luke much lower than I thought you did.

No, because Escape recognizes the author inconsistencies. Luke was at his peak by DN, or more appropriately, TUF. He was supposed to get even better with LOTF, but who knows.

I don't think that he hasn't gotten even better with LOTF. Yeah, okay, the fight with Lumiya made him look a little less spectacular, but so what? Lumiya was using the crowd against him. If they had been fighting on a level playing field Luke would have owned. Luke was also more concerned with Mara than he was with his own fight. He was far from dedicated to defeating Lumiya.

Plus Lumiya is actually pretty powerful. She was recognized as having high potential. Also, she has a piece of the Kaiburr Crystal, increasing her power. Add that to the fact that she she has had a huge amount of time to train with her lightwhip and she is a very deadly foe, on par or perhaps even beyond the likes of Mace Windu.

Add that to the fact that she she has had a huge amount of time to train with her lightwhip and she is a very deadly foe, on par or perhaps even beyond the likes of Mace Windu. QUOTE]

on par or beyond mace? LOL

And why not?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I don't think that he hasn't gotten even better with LOTF. Yeah, okay, the fight with Lumiya made him look a little less spectacular, but so what? Lumiya was using the crowd against him. If they had been fighting on a level playing field Luke would have owned. Luke was also more concerned with Mara than he was with his own fight. He was far from dedicated to defeating Lumiya.

Plus Lumiya is actually pretty powerful. She was recognized as having high potential. Also, she has a piece of the Kaiburr Crystal, increasing her power. Add that to the fact that she she has had a huge amount of time to train with her lightwhip and she is a very deadly foe, on par or perhaps even beyond the likes of Mace Windu.

Pft it was confirmed that post suit vader is alot stronger than she is, and mace would wipe vaders ass with vaapad,

Btw lumiya got lucky during her fight with luke, and luke was distracted

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
And why not?

Your the one saying it why don't you prove it, unless having a peice of the Kaiburr crystal (So did ROTJ Luke) and training with a lightwhip = the level of Mace Windu. To answer that, no, it doesn't. Mace trained for over 40 years, perfected styles, created a new one, has the shatterpoint ability, was on of the greatest duelist EVER, Lumiya does not contend sorry.

Mace is nothing special in the movie, the highest form of canon, and the best and most valid source to go by. Given that Lumiya did so damn good against Luke speaks volumes, I would imagine, though I haven't actually read the book.

It doesn't speak volumes, it's called inconsistencies. Mace is among the best the order has ever produced, and he would wtfpwn Lumiya.

Originally posted by Mic Assassin
Mace is nothing special in the movie, the highest form of canon, and the best and most valid source to go by. Given that Lumiya did so damn good against Luke speaks volumes, I would imagine, though I haven't actually read the book.

Then STFU.

Lumiya says she could never master the dark side, has minimal Sith training, Mace beat Sidious the strognest Sith ever, now unless you wanna attempt to prove Lumiya > Sidious, then, Mace > Lumiya. The ABC's actually work in this case.

I love how Sith'Ari whines about the movies being highest form when he fails to consider the absence of proof fallacy he commits....and how his precious Bane doesn't exist in the movies. Whoops

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Then STFU.

Lumiya says she could never master the dark side, has minimal Sith training,

This relates to her skill with a lightwhip, how? Way to miss the point.



LMAO, you probably couldn't form a worse ABC argument, considering how there lots of evidence supporting the assertion that Sidious threw the fight. And I don't see what's wrong with Lumiya being better than RotS Sidious in a saber battle, considering how well she did against Luke. Did it not ever occur to you that she was just that skilled with a lightsaber.

@Sexy



You can't just call it an inconsistancy as an excuse, it still happened, so you'll just have to accept it, unless you can work around it by using an in-universe explanation?

@Lightsnake



I love how you whine about...everything. Stop being a woman.

She did well against Luke because she got a hit in when he was worried about his wife. That simple.

Oh, again: Lol @ Sith'Ari. sad

It doens't it wasn't in response to that section it was in response to her overall, she blows.



Cosidering how Lucas said Sidious LEGIT lost that the lightsaber portion, I'd say your pretty damn you know wrong. Now she is not just THAT skilled as said before, she was using the crowd, got a cheap shot in on Luke(cutting off his hand before the two began) and Luke was more worried about Mara then the actual duel. And she still lost. If she was THAT skilled with all the handicaps she had on her side she should have won.

LOL @ Lightsnake (wow, that was lame!)

1. Quit lying, you were only talking about saber skills. Here's exactly what you said:



^Not one thing is related to the force, there.

2. Lucas never said that, don't lie. And so what if she had all those handicaps, this is fricking Luke Skywalker, if she wasn't skilled, he should have been able to own her in a heartbeat.

Can you not read there were NUMEROUS extenuating circumstances.

Nebaris do you want to get pwned again?

How bout this, books confirmed that lumiya isnt even half of what vader is and mace windu is a mile ahead of vader in saber abilities and where mace would pwn vader in a duel? That proves mace > lumiya

Again i repeat, lumiyas fight with luke is a fluke, Luke wasnt paying attention, he got distracted, and it was too easy for him, He was twice as powerful as vader by the way

Originally posted by Kadesh
How bout this, books confirmed that lumiya isnt even half of what vader is and mace windu is a mile ahead of vader in saber abilities and where mace would pwn vader in a duel? That proves mace > lumiya

When did the books ever confirm that Lumiya isn't half of what Vader is?

Originally posted by Kadesh
Again i repeat, lumiyas fight with luke is a fluke, Luke wasnt paying attention, he got distracted, and it was too easy for him, He was twice as powerful as vader by the way

Luke is twice as powerful as Vader? I would say that he is MORE than twice as powerful. I think that there was some statement by Lucas that put Anakin's potential at ten times that of Sidious, as Luke's potential is close to Anakin's.

Your the one saying it why don't you prove it, unless having a peice of the Kaiburr crystal (So did ROTJ Luke) and training with a lightwhip = the level of Mace Windu. To answer that, no, it doesn't. Mace trained for over 40 years, perfected styles, created a new one, has the shatterpoint ability, was on of the greatest duelist EVER, Lumiya does not contend sorry.

Lumiya has trained for over 60 years. Longer than Mace has. And the Kaiburr Crystal is a big advantage. And for your information, ROTJ Luke was very powerful. As strong as Mace? No. But he'd have given him a hard time for sure. BTW, Shatterpoint is a common ability, Mace just has it to a much higher degree than most. It's not the end all, be all, though.

Lumiya says she could never master the dark side, has minimal Sith training, Mace beat Sidious the strognest Sith ever, now unless you wanna attempt to prove Lumiya > Sidious, then, Mace > Lumiya. The ABC's actually work in this case.

So what if she could never Master the Darkside? As far as I know even DE Sidious never managed to do that.

She doesn't have minimal Sith training. She was raised on one of Palpatine's estates and so would have recieved training for her entire life. She in her 60's by LOTF, so has more training than Mace.

Mace beat the strongest Sith ever 30 years before Sidious became that. As of ROTS he was far from all powerful. And Mace > Sidious isn't true. Mace defeated Sidious, but Sidious is still superior to him.


Here's the bottom line. Lumiya is a masterful user of the lightwhip. Mace has never fought against a lightwhip before. Unless someone has a shoto it's almost impossible for them to defeat someone who is using a lightwhip. Mace doesn't have a shoto. Lumiya wins.

The statement has been "ten times" to "two times", and at the last point in juncture, the statement was "two times", and as far as "mastering the dark side", that statement has been made all the time. One could interpret that as mastering Sith arts or whatever, and it could be metaphorical for simply gaining enough skill to be considered a master.

In either case, the quote is wrong. Lumiya said that she could never become a Sith, because her body lacks the power required to become a master. She goes on to say that Vader could never have really became a master either. I'd say that it's probable that the two were on par, given that - according to the book - Lumiya's (the dark man's) presence reminded Luke of Vader, given the power and darkness within.

It is still probable to assume that Vader's power (at the time) surpassed hers by a large margin, and that her potential has always been weaker, considering how if her power eclipsed his, Palpatine would have tossed him aside long ago. But given that she has had more years to study the Force, she may know more techniques. But her training isn't comparable to the kind that Vader got, in my opinion.

In either case, aside from Luke, Mace Windu may very well be the most difficult opponent for a dark sider.

By ROTS, Palpatine was one of, if not the strongest Sith. However, Mace is fast and good enough that we've seen to reduce her lightwhip advantae with speed that Lumiya cannot match.

The reason Lumiya did so well is she hit an attack that destroyed one of Luke's hands and burned a hole in his lung, since he was concerned about Mara.

And Kiel Charney wasn't doing too shabby against Githany. If he didn't still love her, he'd have probably killed her

The reason Lumiya did so well is because the author did a piss poor job. If Luke had been as powerful as he was featured in TUF, he'd have crushed her in seconds - regardless of the pedestrians.

Trained with what? She has minimal Sith training from Vader, and according to Evil Never Dies she has one holocron, compare that to Mace Windu who has the ENTIRE Jedi Archives, the great holocron ect ect. So much information that he COULD master styles and create his own. And didn't your little ROTJ Luke > ROTS Anakin get shitted on?




And your basing this of LUMIYA's random musings on him while he was LONG dead, Considering Palpatine literally was the Dark Side I'd say he mastered it.



Uh what are you talking about? She just an average joe who went through the Imperial Academy got discovered by Vader, trained a little auditioned for Palpatine, failed and was sent of missions to kill Luke.



Uh no as I've said in the other topic Sidious was the strongest in ROTS, He probably peaked during TMP, now do his actual techniques get better? Yes, because he gets more information on how to apply his extreme power. It was always there he just didn't fully know how to use it in ridicules feats. Proof of which him moving as fast as he does in DE in Pre TMP. Mace beat the strongest ever.




Kiel Cherny fought against Githany (the only other lightwhip user) without a shoto. LOL at your logic, "he hasn't seen so he loses" what makes you think Mace who was described as "invisible" in his duel with Kar Vastor wouldn't just lob her head off? And please has she seen Vaapad? No, therefore she loses automatically, nice logic isn't it.

Well the only reason Luke needed a Shoto was because Lumiya had Mandalorian Iron and the Kaiburr Crystal AND it was 4ABY in other words ROTJ Luke. Mace would shit on her, now its VERY probable that he has seen a lightwhipe before considering Obi Wan and Kit Fisto made one. And really Mace's Vaapad would shove every thing she puts out back in her face.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
When did the books ever confirm that Lumiya isn't half of what Vader is?
G-canon my friend, vader is 80% of ROTJ sidious who would pwn lumiya

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract

Luke is twice as powerful as Vader? I would say that he is MORE than twice as powerful. I think that there was some statement by Lucas that put Anakin's potential at ten times that of Sidious, as Luke's potential is close to Anakin's. Um lukes potential is the same as anakin.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract

Your the one saying it why don't you prove it, unless having a peice of the Kaiburr crystal (So did ROTJ Luke) and training with a lightwhip = the level of Mace Windu. To answer that, no, it doesn't. Mace trained for over 40 years, perfected styles, created a new one, has the shatterpoint ability, was on of the greatest duelist EVER, Lumiya does not contend sorry. Did i ever say lumiya was better than mace? Sorry, you are the one who is implying that and getting smashed to pieces at the same time


Originally posted by Darth_Glentract

Lumiya has trained for over 60 years. Longer than Mace has. And the Kaiburr Crystal is a big advantage. And for your information, ROTJ Luke was very powerful. As strong as Mace? No. But he'd have given him a hard time for sure. BTW, Shatterpoint is a common ability, Mace just has it to a much higher degree than most. It's not the end all, be all, though. By the way, when on earth did i ever say lumiya > mace? Just for your information yoda had 800 years of experience compared to sidious 60 years of experience yet sidious beat yoda, now what was it you were saying?
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract

Lumiya says she could never master the dark side, has minimal Sith training, Mace beat Sidious the strognest Sith ever, now unless you wanna attempt to prove Lumiya > Sidious, then, Mace > Lumiya. The ABC's actually work in this case. Mace beat somebody who was out-of-practise for 13 years, yet he managed to even survive was amazing
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract

So what if she could never Master the Darkside? As far as I know even DE Sidious never managed to do that. As far as i know, sources stated palpatine knew everything, FOC, DESB EAW etc...
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract

She doesn't have minimal Sith training. She was raised on one of Palpatine's estates and so would have recieved training for her entire life. She in her 60's by LOTF, so has more training than Mace.
So? Yoda had more training and experience than sidious

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract

Mace beat the strongest Sith ever 30 years before Sidious became that. As of ROTS he was far from all powerful. And Mace > Sidious isn't true. Mace defeated Sidious, but Sidious is still superior to him.
Thats lightsaber combat

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract

Here's the bottom line. Lumiya is a masterful user of the lightwhip. Mace has never fought against a lightwhip before. Unless someone has a shoto it's almost impossible for them to defeat someone who is using a lightwhip. Mace doesn't have a shoto. Lumiya wins. Wrong, remember githany? she has a light whip and yet bane is superior to her in saber combat and mace windu knows what a lightwhip is by the way, O wait, by your logic GG should pwn all cuz he has 4 lightsabers wow

Grandmaster Luke barely makes it.

He loses at 5, their's Jacen there.

no more debate: Luke wasn't trying against Lumiya.

Exile apparently clears this up

Has Exile come out yet or does it come out tomorrow?

He would probably down at 5 for sure...