Hmm, if you're tortured permanently in hell...

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lord xyz
Wouldn't you get used to it? I mean, everyone gets used to everything, so why can't we get used to torture? Therefore, if we get used to torture, hell seems to backfire doesn't it?

Shakyamunison
That hell does not exist.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by lord xyz
Wouldn't you get used to it? I mean, everyone gets used to everything, so why can't we get used to torture? Therefore, if we get used to torture, hell seems to backfire doesn't it?

I'm sure demons are clever.

Do you know how many types of pain there are?

Robtard
Originally posted by lord xyz
Wouldn't you get used to it? I mean, everyone gets used to everything, so why can't we get used to torture? Therefore, if we get used to torture, hell seems to backfire doesn't it?


"everyone gets used to everything" = false

lord xyz
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I'm sure demons are clever.

Do you know how many types of pain there are? True, best we see what the Bible says.

Originally posted by Robtard
"everyone gets used to everything" = false Do tell.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That hell does not exist. Well, we can't prove that can we?

BananaKing
Originally posted by lord xyz
Wouldn't you get used to it? I mean, everyone gets used to everything, so why can't we get used to torture? Therefore, if we get used to torture, hell seems to backfire doesn't it?

Do people get used to depression?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by lord xyz
True, best we see what the Bible says.

Do tell.

Well, we can't prove that can we?

Sure we can...

http://www.hell.com/

See heel is a privet place, with no access. laughing

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Sure we can...

http://www.hell.com/

Hell is a blacked out Google?

PVS
http://www.gildia.pl/film/wydarzenia_filmowe/2003/03_foto/pinhead/*w/300/

Symmetric Chaos
acupuncture?

FeceMan
Unlike adjusting to temperature, the body does not adjust to pain.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
acupuncture?

Are you having a questioning day today?

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Are you having a questioning day today?

Am I?

Robtard
Originally posted by lord xyz
Do tell.


Logically thinking... a glowing red hot poker shoved up your ass would hurt the 50th as it would hurt the 1st time. I don't think by the 51st time you would say "Ah, now it feels good!". In other words, people do get accustomed to pain, but there is a limit to which kinds/level of pain.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by FeceMan
Unlike adjusting to temperature, the body does not adjust to pain.

You seem to know too much about hell. eek!

Nellinator
Originally posted by Robtard
Logically thinking... a glowing red hot poker shoved up your ass would hurt the 50th as it would hurt the 1st time. I don't think by the 51st time you would say "Ah, now it feels good!". In other words, people do get accustomed to pain, but there is a limit to which kinds/level of pain.
You are right, nerves either fire or they don't. However, if the nerve receptors are damaged you can not detect the stimulant and you won't feel the pain.

So actually burning would hurt a bunch of times, until the the receptors were all damaged. However, a skilled torturer would be able to torture other parts of your body while they heal and then come back and start over.

Also, hell is not eternal.

WrathfulDwarf
Originally posted by lord xyz
Wouldn't you get used to it? I mean, everyone gets used to everything, so why can't we get used to torture? Therefore, if we get used to torture, hell seems to backfire doesn't it?

I could prove you wrong.

If I were to go to hell for all eternity. And if the Devil were to make me watch Titanic (1997) forever and ever.....trust me...I couldn't possibly get used to it.

It would be something like this:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/cultureshock/flashpoints/theater/images/clockwork_big.jpg

So trust me. I'm doing my best to steer clear of Hell.

Mindship
Originally posted by lord xyz
Wouldn't you get used to it? I mean, everyone gets used to everything, so why can't we get used to torture? Therefore, if we get used to torture, hell seems to backfire doesn't it?
When I was in Hebrew school, someone asked what heaven was like. The rabbi said, You know when you take a first bite of something, it tastes so good, especially when you're hungry? In heaven, every bite is like the first bite.

I imagine the same is true for torture in hell.

Lord Urizen
If that Hell does exist, then it's irrational by nature.


Therefore, there is no logic that can argue that you would get used to it. If Hell is meant to be eternal torture, then you will feel that torture and suffer equally every moment of that eternity.

Nellinator
Not eternal.

Council#13
Originally posted by Robtard
Logically thinking... a glowing red hot poker shoved up your ass would hurt the 50th as it would hurt the 1st time. I don't think by the 51st time you would say "Ah, now it feels good!". In other words, people do get accustomed to pain, but there is a limit to which kinds/level of pain.

shock *crosses Hell off of 'Places to Visit' list*

Seriously, though. I'm sure that the demons can find a way to make the pain just as unbearable each time.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by lord xyz
Wouldn't you get used to it? I mean, everyone gets used to everything, so why can't we get used to torture? Therefore, if we get used to torture, hell seems to backfire doesn't it?
hmmmmm...lets see....eternity in flames, or eternity in paradise........what will i ever do?

tabby999
Originally posted by Robtard
Logically thinking... a glowing red hot poker shoved up your ass would hurt the 50th as it would hurt the 1st time. I don't think by the 51st time you would say "Ah, now it feels good!". In other words, people do get accustomed to pain, but there is a limit to which kinds/level of pain.

in a case like that i'd say you'd be too busy being dead after number 10 to worry about number 50 wink

leonheartmm
theoretically there are limits to pain the mind can endure without passing out but assuming there is a biblical hell. it would be quite easy to remove these limits mystically and fire infinite pain into the bieing forever . the mere thought of such an exerience makes my hair stand out of excitement.

lord xyz
Originally posted by Robtard
Logically thinking... a glowing red hot poker shoved up your ass would hurt the 50th as it would hurt the 1st time. I don't think by the 51st time you would say "Ah, now it feels good!". In other words, people do get accustomed to pain, but there is a limit to which kinds/level of pain. You can't really be sure about that can you, given time, it may be possible to get used to it.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
hmmmmm...lets see....eternity in flames, or eternity in paradise........what will i ever do?


No one truly knows how to acheive Eternal Paradise. We could all be wrong...

Symmetric Chaos
Say what about masochists. Do evil masochists go to heaven or hell?

By Crom!
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Say what about masochists. Do evil masochists go to heaven or hell?

Some people like masochists and some people like sadists and some like both. Whatever floats your boat.

If it's consntual how can a forgiving god mind? evil face

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by By Crom!
Some people like masochists and some people like sadists and some like both. Whatever floats your boat.

If it's consntual how can a forgiving god mind? evil face

I meann't if masochists like pain then wouldn't hell be heaven for them?

Lord Urizen
Maybe only masochists go to Hell....because that is where they would want to be.

By Crom!
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I meann't if masochists like pain then wouldn't hell be heaven for them?

I know what you meant. smile

whip

Originally posted by lord xyz
You can't really be sure about that can you, given time, it may be possible to get used to it.

Are you volunteering?

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by By Crom!

Are you volunteering?

I volunteer to torture him!

DigiMark007
xyz has a good point here.

Most people are thinking too short-term. You have ETERNITY to condition your mind to whatever pain is being inflicted upon you. It might still be "pain" in the traditional sense, but given an eternity to work at it, you could train your mind to enjoy it, regardless of the type of pain (physical, emotional, spiritual, etc.).

The only argument I've heard that evens attempts to consider my point (and xyz's) is "Well, that's a good point, but Hell and Heaven are beyond what we can imagine." Ok, but the same principle still applies...it might just take longer to condition ourselves.

I've always said that if Hell does exist, I want to be sent there instead of Heaven. Then I'll make a Heaven of Hell just to spite teh "god" that sent me there.

erg
Hell does exist if you took the time to open a bible you would see, and one can ever get used to the torture they will receive

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by DigiMark007

Most people are thinking too short-term. You have ETERNITY to condition your mind to whatever pain is being inflicted upon you. It might still be "pain" in the traditional sense, but given an eternity to work at it, you could train your mind to enjoy it, regardless of the type of pain (physical, emotional, spiritual, etc.).

The only argument I've heard that evens attempts to consider my point (and xyz's) is "Well, that's a good point, but Hell and Heaven are beyond what we can imagine." Ok, but the same principle still applies...it might just take longer to condition ourselves.


The main problem is that there is no way to know what the body can get used to if it has eternity.

Demons could attack you psychologially and prevent you from building up and sort of defense against the pain. Alternately they could wipe the resistances from your brain once you constructed them.

erg
Originally posted by DigiMark007
xyz has a good point here.

Most people are thinking too short-term. You have ETERNITY to condition your mind to whatever pain is being inflicted upon you. It might still be "pain" in the traditional sense, but given an eternity to work at it, you could train your mind to enjoy it, regardless of the type of pain (physical, emotional, spiritual, etc.).

The only argument I've heard that evens attempts to consider my point (and xyz's) is "Well, that's a good point, but Hell and Heaven are beyond what we can imagine." Ok, but the same principle still applies...it might just take longer to condition ourselves.

I've always said that if Hell does exist, I want to be sent there instead of Heaven. Then I'll make a Heaven of Hell just to spite teh "god" that sent me there.

Good luck cuz you don't really have no say of what goes on in hell, not even of yourself. Just imagine getting cought in fire of 1000's of degrees more than the usual and just for a second do it every day for the rest of your life and see if you can endure it after the first time.

erg
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Say what about masochists. Do evil masochists go to heaven or hell?
No cuz even Satan will be tortured and if he cant stand the pain there is no way anyone else can

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by erg
No cuz even Satan will be tortured and if he cant stand the pain there is no way anyone else can

masochists like pain though

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by erg
Hell does exist if you took the time to open a bible you would see, and one can ever get used to the torture they will receive


Oh God...shut up... roll eyes (sarcastic)


I'm getting tired of these N00bie zealots resurrecting ancient arguments that have already been discussed....

Fatima
Quran said that satan followers will burn in hell ..and god will change their skins each time so that they feel the pain constantly ..

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Fatima
Quran said that satan followers will burn in hell ..and god will change their skins each time so that they feel the pain constantly ..

laughinglaughinglaughinglaughinglaughing



God is so sadistically loving.....


Why do you worship such a cruel being ? He's worse than Hitler !

erg
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Oh God...shut up... roll eyes (sarcastic)


I'm getting tired of these N00bie zealots resurrecting ancient arguments that have already been discussed....
You know what no one is making you come on line so if u don't wanna see it don't get online duh

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by erg
You know what no one is making you come on line so if u don't wanna see it don't get online duh

no one is making you come online either so if you don't want to loose every argument you have just don't come to this forum. smile

Mindship
Habituation (getting used to a stimulus) is a physiological response, and as such can be circumvented. Thus, we could subject an individual here and now, while alive, to torture w/o allowing him/her to get used to it.

By definition, Hell would be irrefutably and unequivocally intolerable, far worse than watching reruns of Joe and Valerie ( http://www.tv.com/joe-and-valerie/show/17554/summary.html ).

erg
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
masochists like pain though
yeah but because they receive as much as they can handle. in hell they don't decide what type of torture they want to get. ok let's put it this way how can you train your soul to get used to anything, we may have control over our bodies but no power over our souls

Nellinator
Originally posted by Mindship
Habituation (getting used to a stimulus) is a physiological response, and as such can be circumvented. Thus, we could subject an individual here and now, while alive, to torture w/o allowing him/her to get used to it.

By definition, Hell would be irrefutably and unequivocally intolerable, far worse than watching reruns of Joe and Valerie ( http://www.tv.com/joe-and-valerie/show/17554/summary.html ).
Exactly. If your nerve endings or receptors are still intact your nerves will fire and that will cause a pain response in your mind.

Regret
Originally posted by Nellinator
Exactly. If your nerve endings or receptors are still intact your nerves will fire and that will cause a pain response in your mind. But would your nerves reach that overloaded state where they never completely reached a resting state, and thus are incapable of firing, akin to a reaction to strychnine.

Nellinator
Yes, but since these people are thoroughly convinced that demons will expertly torture them for eternity I think it is safe to assume that that state will not be reached in the context. Or perhaps the demon torturers could neutralize your acetylcholine so they repeatedly fire causing repeated pain. Or perhaps they would be able to affect the pain centers of the brain and simply put you in continuous pain without even touching you.
I'm a little out of touch with the biological principles of psychology as it hasn't been relevant to me in a while, but I think it was something like that.

Good thing hell isn't eternal.

Mindship
edit

Mindship
Originally posted by Regret
But would your nerves reach that overloaded state where they never completely reached a resting state, and thus are incapable of firing, akin to a reaction to strychnine.

I would think you could play with threshold levels and recovery times to get around that.

Regret
Originally posted by Mindship
I would think you could play with threshold levels and recovery times to get around that. Probably wink But then I don't really believe in the hell portrayed by many modern interpretations of Biblical hell, just adding a fun physiological fact to the discussion.

Grimm22
If you ask me, the torture in hell is simply being forced to watch you're sins repetitively for eternity

FeceMan
Originally posted by FeceMan
Unlike adjusting to temperature, the body does not adjust to pain.
Since most of you seemed to have missed this...

People live with chronic pain. Their pain is the same, day-in and day-out. It does not dull with time. It feels the same on the tenth year of suffering as it does on the first day.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Grimm22
If you ask me, the torture in hell is simply being forced to watch you're sins repetitively for eternity

But I enjoy my sins, having to watch them isn't torture. (the repetition might get to me eventually though)

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by FeceMan
Since most of you seemed to have missed this...

People live with chronic pain. Their pain is the same, day-in and day-out. It does not dull with time. It feels the same on the tenth year of suffering as it does on the first day.

You are confusing missed with ignored. stick out tongue

peejayd
Originally posted by Nellinator
You are right, nerves either fire or they don't. However, if the nerve receptors are damaged you can not detect the stimulant and you won't feel the pain.

So actually burning would hurt a bunch of times, until the the receptors were all damaged. However, a skilled torturer would be able to torture other parts of your body while they heal and then come back and start over.

Also, hell is not eternal.

* mr.nellinator, i would like to ask why do you believe that hell is not eternal... wink

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by peejayd
* mr.nellinator, i would like to ask why do you believe that hell is not eternal... wink

I asked him the same thing once. To paraphrase his answer the Bible says something about instant inceineration of sinners.

peejayd
* i don't know about that... what i know was an everlasting fire for Satan, his angels and his converts... wink

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by peejayd
* mr.nellinator, i would like to ask why do you believe that hell is not eternal... wink

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I asked him the same thing once. To paraphrase his answer the Bible says something about instant inceineration of sinners.

Originally posted by peejayd
* i don't know about that... what i know was an everlasting fire for Satan, his angels and his converts... wink


laughing

Is the world flat?
How many angel can dance on the head of a pin?
Does the sun go around the Earth?

You guys are so lost! laughing That is in a knowing fact from fiction kind of way. laughing

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Is the world flat?

no its hollow

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
How many angel can dance on the head of a pin?

depends on the angel

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Does the sun go around the Earth?

the sun is a conspiracy created by aliens to control us it doesn't go around anything

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You guys are so lost! laughing That is in a knowing fact from fiction kind of way. laughing

My delusions are a perfectly valid source of information about how the world works buddy.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
no its hollow



depends on the angel



the sun is a conspiracy created by aliens to control us it doesn't go around anything



My delusions are a perfectly valid source of information about how the world works buddy.

eek! You scare me. laughing

Nellinator
Originally posted by peejayd
* mr.nellinator, i would like to ask why do you believe that hell is not eternal... wink
Originally posted by peejayd
* i don't know about that... what i know was an everlasting fire for Satan, his angels and his converts... wink
The words everlasting, eternal, forevermore, etc. do not actual mean forever. They are actually pertaining to an age. If you want I can go over each Greek word and the translations used for it as there is more than one Greek word used for it.

Psalm 37:20
"But the wicked shall perish, And the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

Ezekiel 28:17-19
"Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled my sanctuaries by the multitude of thy iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore I will bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt become a terror, and never shalt thou be forever."

An interesting thing to recognize here is the clear allusion to Genesis 3:14 in the line 'I will cast thee to the ground' because it is correctly translated 'I DID cast thee to the ground'.

Genesis 3:14
And the Lord said unto the serpent, "Because thou done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life...

'All the days of thy life' caught my attention and implies that Satan will be destroyed eventually.

Lord Urizen
So what you are saying is the the English translations are incorrect....am i right or wrong ?

Nellinator
Not incorrect, perse, they are incomplete I would say. The words do not convey the entire meaning, but do convey the meaning.

Alliance
How do you distiguish between "the meaning" and "the enitre menaing," because they seem like the same concepts.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Alliance
How do you distiguish between "the meaning" and "the enitre menaing," because they seem like the same concepts.

He is refering to connotation I assume

Alliance
Obviously, but he's not being specific.

How is "the meaning" not "the entire meaning?"

How is "the entire meaning" not conveyed?

If "the entire meaning" is not conveyed, isn't all we really need to know "the meaning?"

So what was the point of the comment then?

Lord Urizen
How does Everlasting, and forever more, not equal eternal ? What the f**k?

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Alliance
Obviously, but he's not being specific.

How is "the meaning" not "the entire meaning?"

How is "the entire meaning" not conveyed?

If "the entire meaning" is not conveyed, isn't all we really need to know "the meaning?"

So what was the point of the comment then?

OK this is a bad example but think of the meaning conveyed by Big and Gigantic respectively.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
How does Everlasting, and forever more, not equal eternal ? What the f**k?

Dunno I think it has something to do with the context of the word in this case not the specific word used.

Nellinator
Originally posted by Alliance
Obviously, but he's not being specific.

How is "the meaning" not "the entire meaning?"

How is "the entire meaning" not conveyed?

If "the entire meaning" is not conveyed, isn't all we really need to know "the meaning?"

So what was the point of the comment then?
Well in this case, eternal does convey the correct meaning that it is indeed an extended period of time, however it does not indicate that there is indeed an end which would be the entire meaning. Does that explain it?
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
How does Everlasting, and forever more, not equal eternal ? What the f**k?
The original Greek that is translated as eternal, everlasting, and forever more does not actually mean eternal, everlasting, and forever.

Regret
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
How does Everlasting, and forever more, not equal eternal ? What the f**k? Mormon theology often interprets these terms relative to Man. Thus everlasting, and forever more, and other similar type terms are only in relation to the time frame comprehended and not the literal term.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by lord xyz
Wouldn't you get used to it? I mean, everyone gets used to everything, so why can't we get used to torture? Therefore, if we get used to torture, hell seems to backfire doesn't it?

That is not a right question to be asking to begin with.

The question you should be asking is ''how can soul feel pain to begin with''? Is pain not marely conected to our physical body?

Greeks had a better explanation of hell. Greek hell was all about mental torture (or at least part of it was)

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
That is not a right question to be asking to begin with.

The question you should be asking is ''how can soul feel pain to begin with''? Is pain not marely conected to our physical body?


The soul could be forced to remember previous pain inflicted on the physical body.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Greeks had a better explanation of hell. Greek hell was all about mental torture (or at least part of it was)

Psychological torture would of course be more effective on a nonphysical entity and as has been brought up there is no way to build a defense against it (assuming your mind is that of a normal human).

Thundar
Originally posted by peejayd
* mr.nellinator, i would like to ask why do you believe that hell is not eternal... wink

I know this wasn't directed towards me, but I decided to answer it.

Here's a couple of verses for you.

Matthew 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

John 8:51
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.


Notice that "death" and "destruction" are referred to as the ultimate punishment for sin. "Eternal" death is just a reference to the opposite state one will be in if they haven't received "eternal" life. It doesn't in any way refer to "torture."

Any torture(or punishment) that one suffers before the second death will be brought upon themselves before it takes place. Paul makes this clear when speaking to the Corinthians.

Corinthians 2 5:10

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

So all will receive back exactly what they've given in this life. Be it good or bad. Those who Christ deems have done "good", will obviously receive heaven. And those who he deems have done "bad", he will punish with hell. I imagine Satan and the fallen angels will receive a greater and longer punishment than those men who have rejected God, seeing as how sin originates from them, and they have perpetrated it much longer than any man.

After punishment is over, all of those who have received hell will experience the second death. And again, this death will be "eternal", seeing as how no one will be resurrected from it.

Mindship
Originally posted by FeceMan
People live with chronic pain. Their pain is the same, day-in and day-out. It does not dull with time. It feels the same on the tenth year of suffering as it does on the first day.
"People live with chronic pain."
When people "live with" something, they have made it part of their daily lives (even if unwillingly). They have, in effect, "gotten used" to it, even if it is a lousy existence (as an Auschwitz survivor had said, people can get used to anything if survival is at stake).


I had a discussion once with a friend about the perfect torture, and it was psychological in nature.
At the pit of our psyche lies death terror. Remove the defense mechanisms which protect the ego, and one is confronted with the sense of their imminent death instant after instant.

Could a person "get used" to this? I don't know. Getting used to something involves psychological adaptation, but in this case, that very mechanism is what's being compromised.

Faceman
Originally posted by lord xyz
Wouldn't you get used to it? I mean, everyone gets used to everything, so why can't we get used to torture? Therefore, if we get used to torture, hell seems to backfire doesn't it? Their is no Hell, get over it. Religion is what you make of it during your time on Earth.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Faceman
Their is no Hell, get over it.

Ever heard of a hypothetical question? For the purposes of answering this question one must assume there is a hell.

Originally posted by Faceman
Religion is what you make of it during your time on Earth.

I agree. No matter what religion you follow your life is still yours to live.

FeceMan
Actually, lil b brings up a good point (something that I was ignoring for the sake of argument): in hell, our physical bodies are not present. There are only souls. Now, in assuming anything about pain in the afterlife, one is assuming that the soul feels pain as the body does.

Thus, there's really no point to this discussion at all.

Thundar
Originally posted by FeceMan
Actually, lil b brings up a good point (something that I was ignoring for the sake of argument): in hell, our physical bodies are not present. There are only souls. Now, in assuming anything about pain in the afterlife, one is assuming that the soul feels pain as the body does.

Thus, there's really no point to this discussion at all.

I agree. You can't really equate the spiritual and the physical.

Regret
Originally posted by FeceMan
Actually, lil b brings up a good point (something that I was ignoring for the sake of argument): in hell, our physical bodies are not present. There are only souls. Now, in assuming anything about pain in the afterlife, one is assuming that the soul feels pain as the body does.

Thus, there's really no point to this discussion at all. Unless one believes in a literal physical resurrection.

Thundar
Originally posted by Regret
Unless one believes in a literal physical resurrection.

I think one would also have to believe that those in hell will be a physically resurrected, to support what you've posted above. I don't think the bible alludes to a physical resurrection of those in hell. I believe it alludes to physical resurrection and life being intended for those who have accepted(or abided in) Christ.

John 15:4-6
4. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Oddly enough, the verse above can also be used to support the other argument about hell being "eternal." The "fire" obviously refers to the second death, and the "withered branches" refer to those who have rejected Christ. So once again this verse proves that all of those who have rejected him, will ultimately be destroyed.

Regret
Originally posted by Thundar
I think one would also have to believe that those in hell will be a physically resurrected, to support what you've posted above. I don't think the bible alludes to a physical resurrection of those in hell. I believe it alludes to physical resurrection and life being intended for those who have accepted(or abided in) Christ.

John 15:4-6
4. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Oddly enough, the verse above can also be used to support the other argument about hell being "eternal." The "fire" obviously refers to the second death, and the "withered branches" refer to those who have rejected Christ. So once again this verse proves that all of those who have rejected him, will ultimately be destroyed. This is merely stating that if you follow (abide in) Christ you will produce good fruit, if you do not produce good fruit, you will be pruned out and cast away from Christ. This parable says nothing definitive on physical state of the damned or of the exalted.

John 5:29

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Acts 24:14-15

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


Resurrection is for everyone. What occurs following resurrection is the difference.

reggie_jax
edit.

Lord Urizen
What is it with all these ppl posting porn >?

FeceMan
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
What is it with all these ppl posting porn >?
I'm proud of you. I was expecting:
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
droolio

Nellinator
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
What is it with all these ppl posting porn >?
I'm glad I missed all this... strange people.

Alliance
Shocking at worst. All I wanted to do was talk about religion, or politics, or the superbowl. sad

It was everywhere fear

So I made a thread about it in the OTF 31

FeceMan
Originally posted by Nellinator
I'm glad I missed all this... strange people.
From what I saw, it was all nasty-ass skank porn, anyhow. Not even worth partial arousal.

Alliance
It was all the same...and I agree.

Nellinator
Originally posted by FeceMan
From what I saw, it was all nasty-ass skank porn, anyhow. Not even worth partial arousal. laughing

Thundar
Originally posted by Regret
This is merely stating that if you follow (abide in) Christ you will produce good fruit, if you do not produce good fruit, you will be pruned out and cast away from Christ. This parable says nothing definitive on physical state of the damned or of the exalted.


You are correct. The original verses are indeed often interpreted as referring to the good works one can do through Christ. But if you look at the scripture a bit more in depth, you can also see that it is alluding to Christ being the giver and taker of life. Those who "abide" in the vine(or Christ), will continue to live in the vine and produce fruit. And those "branches" that do not abide in the vine, will be discarded into the "fire."

Originally posted by Regret
John 5:29

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Acts 24:14-15

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.



God will judge all, but I don't believe that the scripture above refers to a "physical resurrection" of those who are in hell. I believe "physical resurrection" is alluded to being given only to those who abide in Christ.

As it is stated in John 5:29, those who are deemed good by him, will be "resurrected of life." And those who have commited evil, will be "ressurrected of damnation." I believe damnation in this context refers to sending those in hell to eternal death, so again I think it would be very illogical for God to "physically" resurrect those who will be thrown into the lake of fire.

debbiejo
Originally posted by lord xyz
Wouldn't you get used to it? I mean, everyone gets used to everything, so why can't we get used to torture? Therefore, if we get used to torture, hell seems to backfire doesn't it? Many people get their views of hell from the sermon of Jonathan Edwards "In the hands of an angry god."

Quite disturbing stuff.

The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince; and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment.

And let every one that is yet out of Christ, and hanging over the pit of hell, whether they be old men and women, or middle aged, or young people, or little children, now hearken to the loud calls of God's word and providence.

Twisted stuff including wreathing and churning little children in hell.....

http://www.firstluv.org/edwards.html

Regret
Originally posted by Thundar
You are correct. The original verses are indeed often interpreted as referring to the good works one can do through Christ. But if you look at the scripture a bit more in depth, you can also see that it is alluding to Christ being the giver and taker of life. Those who "abide" in the vine(or Christ), will continue to live in the vine and produce fruit. And those "branches" that do not abide in the vine, will be discarded into the "fire."



God will judge all, but I don't believe that the scripture above refers to a "physical resurrection" of those who are in hell. I believe "physical resurrection" is alluded to being given only to those who abide in Christ.

As it is stated in John 5:29, those who are deemed good by him, will be "resurrected of life." And those who have commited evil, will be "ressurrected of damnation." I believe damnation in this context refers to sending those in hell to eternal death, so again I think it would be very illogical for God to "physically" resurrect those who will be thrown into the lake of fire. That is fine as an opinion, but that is all it is, your opinion. Resurrection (anastasin in the original Greek), by definition, is the raising of the dead, physically. Acts 24:15 clearly states that both the just and the unjust will be resurrected.

Thundar
Originally posted by debbiejo
Many people get their views of hell from the sermon of Jonathan Edwards "In the hands of an angry god."

Quite disturbing stuff.

The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince; and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment.

And let every one that is yet out of Christ, and hanging over the pit of hell, whether they be old men and women, or middle aged, or young people, or little children, now hearken to the loud calls of God's word and providence.

Twisted stuff including wreathing and churning little children in hell.....

http://www.firstluv.org/edwards.html

Edwards interpretation of hell was pretty hard core, but definitely successful in getting its primary message across.

Thundar
Originally posted by Regret
That is fine as an opinion, but that is all it is, your opinion. Resurrection (anastasin in the original Greek), by definition, is the raising of the dead, physically. Acts 24:15 clearly states that both the just and the unjust will be resurrected.

You're correct it is my opinion, I should have clarified that better in the preceding post. But if you think about it practically, what I stated does seem to be quite logical. If one thinks of Christ as being the "vine" of life, then of course..it wouldn't really make much sense for him to bring back to life those branches that are withered and going to be cast into the fire.

As you have stated above, one also has to take into account the true meanings of the words being used. I must say that I'm not completely familiar with the Greek origin of the word "resurrection", but I do know that from a modern perspective, resurrection can simply be defined as "bringing forth" something. It doesn't necessarily have to mean that one is bringing something back from the dead.

So I think ressurection within this context(as listed in Acts 24:14-15) is referring to "bringing forth" those dead in Christ before him once again, not literally bringing them back into physical bodies.

To me it would seem a bit unloving for God to bring back people to a physical body, just to have such a body destroyed again. This would fall along the lines of torture, and I know torture is something God doesn't do.

So will there be a "ressurrection" of those dead in Christ? Sure. But it probably won't be a "physical" resurrection you and I are accustomed to understanding, particularly since those "resurrected" will be quickly discarded into the flames.

erg
Originally posted by Fatima
Quran said that satan followers will burn in hell ..and god will change their skins each time so that they feel the pain constantly ..
They won't change their skin for the reason being that they won't have any. What is being tortured is their soul. No one is hell will have a physical body.

Nellinator
Originally posted by debbiejo
Many people get their views of hell from the sermon of Jonathan Edwards "In the hands of an angry god."

Quite disturbing stuff.

The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince; and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment.

And let every one that is yet out of Christ, and hanging over the pit of hell, whether they be old men and women, or middle aged, or young people, or little children, now hearken to the loud calls of God's word and providence.

Twisted stuff including wreathing and churning little children in hell.....

http://www.firstluv.org/edwards.html
I once heard an excellent sermon by Dr. Trickey that denounced this sermon and I tended to agree. God does not abhor us, he abhors the sin.

erg
Originally posted by Grimm22
If you ask me, the torture in hell is simply being forced to watch you're sins repetitively for eternity
Only if it was that simple. One can put up with what they did in the past. If that was the only thing that happened in hell no one would really care to go there.

Alliance
Originally posted by Nellinator
I once heard an excellent sermon by Dr. Trickey that denounced this sermon and I tended to agree. God does not abhor us, he abhors the sin.
Another argument that really makes no sense.

Thundar
Originally posted by erg
Only if it was that simple. One can put up with what they did in the past. If that was the only thing that happened in hell no one would really care to go there.

But having to repeatedly suffer the sins one commited against others, would definitely prove to be an extremely grueling and unbearable affair.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Thundar
But having to repeatedly suffer the sins one commited against others, would definitely prove to be an extremely grueling and unbearable affair.

But you don't have to wait until death to suffer that way.

erg
Originally posted by Thundar
But having to repeatedly suffer the sins one commited against others, would definitely prove to be an extremely grueling and unbearable affair.
Sure, but what I'm saying is that you could be able to put up with it. But that's not all one will encounter, the real torture is when one goe's to Hell, that will be intolerable there is no way out.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by erg
Sure, but what I'm saying is that you could be able to put up with it. But that's not all one will encounter, the real torture is when one goe's to Hell, that will be intolerable there is no way out.


Your God is SO loving roll eyes (sarcastic)

Thundar
Originally posted by erg
Sure, but what I'm saying is that you could be able to put up with it. But that's not all one will encounter, the real torture is when one goe's to Hell, that will be intolerable there is no way out.

*..umm Ms erg..how do you know you'd be able to put up with it, if you've never experienced it?

*BTW...there shouldn't be a comma before that..be careful..people will use such things against you when you debate...to admonish your credibility..and make themselves and they're arguments look more credible on a movie message board..my friend..wink

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Thundar
*..umm Ms erg..how do you know you'd be able to put up with it, if you've never experienced it?

*BTW...there shouldn't be a comma before that..be careful..people will use such things against you when you debate...to admonish your credibility..and make themselves and they're arguments look more credible on a movie message board..my friend..wink



Help her out Thundar, Erg makes it so easy to label her ignorant

Thundar
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Your God is SO loving roll eyes (sarcastic)

*Umm..mr. Urizen..yes he is Love..thats what the bible says..and righteousnous is a part of Love...so all those who reject Love..must be punished..or else my god wouldn't be a Loving one..my friend..wink

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Thundar
*Umm..mr. Urizen..yes he is Love..thats what the bible says..and righteousnous is a part of Love...so all those who reject Love..must be punished..or else my god wouldn't be a Loving one..my friend..wink



Love would never punish. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Thundar
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Help her out Thundar, Erg makes it so easy to label her ignorant

*only ignorant to to those who dont know that god is Love..my friend...wink

Thundar
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Love would never punish. roll eyes (sarcastic)


1 Corinthians 13:1-13
If I speak in the tongues of men and angels,
but have not love,
I have become sounding brass or a tinkling symbol.

And if I have prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge,
and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains,
but have not love, I am nothing.

And if I dole out all my goods, and
if I deliver my body that I may boast
but have not love, nothing I am profited.

Love is long suffering,
love is kind,
it is not jealous,
love does not boast,
it is not inflated.

It is not discourteous,
it is not selfish,
it is not irritable,
it does not enumerate the evil.
It does not rejoice over the wrong, but rejoices in the truth


It covers all things,
it has faith for all things,
it hopes in all things,
it endures in all things.

Love never falls in ruins;
but whether prophecies, they will be abolished; or
tongues, they will cease; or
knowledge, it will be superseded.

For we know in part and we prophecy in part.

But when the perfect comes, the imperfect will be superseded.

When I was an infant,
I spoke as an infant,
I reckoned as an infant;

when I became ,
I abolished the things of the infant.

For now we see through a mirror in an enigma, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know as also I was fully known.

But now remains
faith, hope, love,

these three;

but the greatest of these is love.


*Love does not enumerate evil..or revel in it..so logically it will not support evil actions..and condemn those who have commited evil when it takes place...wink

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Thundar
...
*Love does not enumerate evil..or revel in it..so logically it will not support evil actions..and condemn those who have commited evil when it takes place...wink

Why would you quote the bible? confused Love is not a person, love is an emotion, and people who are in love will see past a lot of faults in their lover.

PVS
Originally posted by Thundar
*Love does not enumerate evil..or revel in it..so logically it will not support evil actions..and condemn those who have commited evil when it takes place...wink

what desperately zig zagging logic.

the truth is that if god loves all his creatures, and he is ready to eternally damn and torture some of those creatures, then its obvious that they are not loved. therefore god's love is neither unconditional nor eternal. there would be no constructive purpose for eternal damnation, but rather the sick and sadistic semen-drenched revenge of a rather twisted diety. even if one was to suffer for almost eternity and reach some sort of closure, some purpose might be found in it all.

hell is a product of fantasies of revenge, and a method of control via fear.
there is no positive aspect of the human psyche that could conjure up such a wildly sadistic yet disturbingly common theme of eternal suffering in religion.

if the only way one can sell a belief is by enticing one's want for revenge and scaring the shit out of them, their religion is worthless.

then again, im not a real christian so what do i know?

Thundar
Originally posted by PVS
what desperately zig zagging logic.

the truth is that if god loves all his creatures, and he is ready to eternally damn and torture some of those creatures, then its obvious that they are not loved. therefore god's love is neither unconditional nor eternal. there would be no constructive purpose for eternal damnation, but rather the sick and sadistic semen-drenched revenge of a rather twisted diety. even if one was to suffer for almost eternity and reach some sort of closure, some purpose might be found in it all.

hell is a product of fantasies of revenge, and a method of control via fear.
there is no positive aspect of the human psyche that could conjure up such a wildly sadistic yet disturbingly common theme of eternal suffering in religion.

if the only way one can sell a belief is by enticing one's want for revenge and scaring the shit out of them, their religion is worthless.

then again, im not a real christian so what do i know?

sorry. i'm a bit of an empath, so of coarse im easily influenced sometimes by the posting styles of others.

Moving on to the actual argument, please provide an actual biblical verse, which supports the account of Hell being eternal "torture."

PVS
Originally posted by Thundar
sorry. i'm a bit of an empath, so of coarse im easily influenced sometimes by the posting styles of others.

Moving on to the actual argument, please provide an actual biblical verse, which supports the account of Hell being eternal "torture."

are you serious?

Thundar
Originally posted by PVS
are you serious?

yes. then again, i must admit, the first part of what was posted of coarse was a bit of parody.

That being stated, please provide scriptural evidence(from the bible) to support your claim of hell representing "eternal torture."

PVS
Originally posted by Thundar
yes. then again, i must admit, the first part of what was posted of coarse was a bit of parody.

That being stated, please provide scriptural evidence(from the bible) to support your claim of hell representing "eternal torture."

"the bible" meaning old and new testament?

Thundar
Originally posted by PVS
"the bible" meaning old and new testament?

Yes. From the old or new.

PVS
Luke 16:19-31

"The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades ... he cried and said 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'"

Matthew 13:41, 50

"The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practise lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Revelation 14:10

"If anyone worships the beast ... he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."

Matthew 10:28

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him Who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Revelation 19:20, 20:10

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.




ok, now whats your copout loophole? it doesnt actually say "torture?" but rather "torment"?

i know you're intentionally wasting my time. so spill it: whats the punchline?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Thundar
Yes. From the old or new.

hysterical I can't wait...


Originally posted by PVS
Luke 16:19-31

"The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades ... he cried and said 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'"

Matthew 13:41, 50

"The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practise lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Revelation 14:10

"If anyone worships the beast ... he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."

Matthew 10:28

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him Who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Revelation 19:20, 20:10

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.




ok, now whats your copout loophole? it doesnt actually say "torture?" but rather "torment"?

i know you're intentionally wasting my time. so spill it: whats the punchline?

jawdrop

PVS
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
hysterical I can't wait...




jawdrop

stfu

fini
lol

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by PVS
stfu

I did not know you were a bible thumper. laughing out loud

PVS
deja vu

there was some guy who wasted my time by telling me to prove that freedom of religion was part of the constitution. when i did i got the reply "no, it doesnt actually say 'freedom of religion' " then he juggled some bowling pins, made a few balloon animals for the kids, jumped in his little tiny car and drove off.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Thundar
*Umm..mr. Urizen..yes he is Love..


Then we all have God inside us, because we all love. Even Atheists are God then.....because Atheists give and feel Love just like we all do.






Originally posted by Thundar
thats what the bible says..



The Bible is proof of nothing, so this statement is mute






Originally posted by Thundar
and righteousnous is a part of Love...



Love does not envy or count faults according to your Bible. So logically, how could vengeance and punishment be a part of Love, if Love keeps no records of right and wrong ?






Originally posted by Thundar
so all those who reject Love..must be punished..or else my god wouldn't be a Loving one..my friend..wink



If Love keeps no record of right and wrong, like the Bible states, then why is thier punishment ? What the f**k?


Atheists and people of other Faiths do not reject Love, we only reject your concept of God.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by PVS
deja vu

there was some guy who wasted my time by telling me to prove that freedom of religion was part of the constitution. when i did i got the reply "no, it doesnt actually say 'freedom of religion' " then he juggled some bowling pins, made a few balloon animals for the kids, jumped in his little tiny car and drove off.


Originally posted by PVS
stfu

Lord Urizen
Why don't Shaky and PVS get along ?


Come on guys, we're on the same side of this issue...in fact, we're usually on the same side on almost every issue....

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Why don't Shaky and PVS get along ?

We are too much alike. laughing out loud

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
We are too much alike. laughing out loud



Uhhh......no......not really no

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Uhhh......no......not really no


You tell me then...

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You tell me then...




He's a lot meaner and far more judgemental than you are

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
He's a lot meaner and far more judgemental than you are

Just like I used to be when I was 20. I was a real ass.

PVS
yeah, you should both stfu and stay on topic

wait...before you reply, notice the tempation you both have to join up and group bash me rather than discuss the topic. like, have a two way conversation bashing me in the third person...kind of a mutual licking of wounds.


dont do it...that is why you fail.

Shakyamunison
What was the topic?

Oh, being tortured permanently in hell.

I think you would get used to it, even get to like it. In time it would be a heaven to you.

Thundar
Okay here we go. Here's the original statment presented:



Below are your scriptural responses:


Originally posted by PVS
Luke 16:19-31

"The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades ... he cried and said 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'"


No reference to "eternal torture" here. So we can disregard.


Originally posted by PVS
Matthew 13:41, 50

"The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practise lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."


Same as above.

Originally posted by PVS
Revelation 14:10

"If anyone worships the beast ... he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."


Once again, same as before. No reference is made to "eternal torture."

Originally posted by PVS
Matthew 10:28

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him Who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."


Same as above. We can disregard.

Thundar
Originally posted by PVS
Revelation 19:20, 20:10

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


If a man takes a piece of wood and throws it into the flames, after a while, the flame will completely consume the wood and become extinguished. However, if another decides to add more wood to the man's fire, the more they will continue to agitate and feed the flames.

So who's responsible for the flame continuing to burn?

Answer: The person who continues to feed it the wood.

So it is indeed possible for one to have started the fire, but that doesn't necessarily make one responsible for keeping the fire going. Once the wood ceases to be added to the flames and it ceases in agitating them, then the flame will be extinguished. However, as we both know..some pieces of wood are much more difficult to burn than others.

PVS
Originally posted by Thundar
Okay here we go. Here's the original statment presented:

Below are your scriptural responses:

No reference to "eternal torture" here. So we can disregard.

Same as above.

Once again, same as before. No reference is made to "eternal torture."

Same as above. We can disregard.

yeah, i already called you on your weak little copout:



Originally posted by PVS
ok, now whats your copout loophole? it doesnt actually say "torture?" but rather "torment"?

i know you're intentionally wasting my time. so spill it: whats the punchline?

and furthermore, the bible was not written in english but rather translated to it, and since torture and torment are synonyms, you are wrong and YOU FAIL.

now do your little juggling act, squirt shaky with your novelty flower, make a nice balloon horsey for urizon, and be gone.

k thx

debbiejo
Originally posted by Thundar
If a man takes a piece of wood and throws it into the flames, after a while, the flame will completely consume the wood and become extinguished. However, if another decides to add more wood to the man's fire, the more they will continue to agitate and feed the flames.

So who's responsible for the flame continuing to burn?

Answer: The person who continues to feed it the wood.

So it is indeed possible for one to have started the fire, but that doesn't necessarily make one responsible for keeping the fire going. Once the wood ceases to be added to the flames and it ceases in agitating them, then the flame will be extinguished. However, as we both know..some pieces of wood are much more difficult to burn than others. Actually the Bible doesn't speak of everlasting torment as is preached from the pulpit. It uses stories to portray a destruction of ones soul, but not a physical soul, it's the mind and life of a persons emotions. All old cultures spoke in this way to make a point. Word pictures were used and passed all through out history, unfortunately the Bible had some editing.

PVS
Originally posted by Thundar
If a man takes a piece of wood and throws it into the flames, after a while, the flame will completely consume the wood and become extinguished. However, if another decides to add more wood to the man's fire, the more they will continue to agitate and feed the flames.

So who's responsible for the flame continuing to burn?

Answer: The person who continues to feed it the wood.

So it is indeed possible for one to have started the fire, but that doesn't necessarily make one responsible for keeping the fire going. Once the wood ceases to be added to the flames and it ceases in agitating them, then the flame will be extinguished. However, as we both know..some pieces of wood are much more difficult to burn than others.

yeah wood fire blah blah

"And they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by PVS
yeah, you should both stfu and stay on topic

wait...before you reply, notice the tempation you both have to join up and group bash me rather than discuss the topic. like, have a two way conversation bashing me in the third person...kind of a mutual licking of wounds.


dont do it...that is why you fail.




Get over yourself , nobody was bashing you


I simply was curious as to why the two of you were spending more time dissin each other rather than discussing the topic. Don't be a hypocrite thumb down






Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What was the topic?

Oh, being tortured permanently in hell.

I think you would get used to it, even get to like it. In time it would be a heaven to you.





If Hell is meant to be eternal torture, then it will be. If Hell is meant to be eternal and unbearable suffering, then it will be unbearable for all eternity.

An all-powerful and cruel God can see to that.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Get over yourself , nobody was bashing you

I simply was curious as to why the two of you were spending more time dissin each other rather than discussing the topic. Don't be a hypocrite thumb down

If Hell is meant to be eternal torture, then it will be. If Hell is meant to be eternal and unbearable suffering, then it will be unbearable for all eternity.

An all-powerful and cruel God can see to that.

However, forever is a long time, and given enough time anything is possible. Even a planet filled with living beings that were not made by a god.

Thundar
I agree with you somewhat debbie joe. If you take note from what I posted above, I actually made reference to the flames being "extinguished" at some point. But all of that is really dependant upon when the wood stops being added to the flames.

Take note, that "Hell" itself is never refered to as eternal in scripture, however death is. That being stated, here are some additional scriptures supporting this(which were posted earlier within this thread)

Matthew 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

John 8:51
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Psalm 37:20
"But the wicked shall perish, And the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

Ezekiel 28:17-19
"Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled my sanctuaries by the multitude of thy iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore I will bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt become a terror, and never shalt thou be forever."

So eternal death really seems to be the ultimate punishment for all of those who reject God.

PVS
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Get over yourself , nobody was bashing you


I simply was curious as to why the two of you were spending more time dissin each other rather than discussing the topic. Don't be a hypocrite thumb down

whatever. please, ive had enough baby copout games in the religion forum for one day. just remember:

bash me if you wish. just quit looking for someone's approval/validation in doing so. it makes you come off as sycophantic and spineless.

PVS
Originally posted by PVS
Revelation 19:20, 20:10

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


*ahem*

Thundar
Originally posted by PVS
*ahem*

But you still haven't really acknowledged who's responsible for keeping the fire going. Nor have you acknowledged that Hell is not eternal.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by PVS
whatever. please, ive had enough baby copout games in the religion forum for one day. just remember:

bash me if you wish. just quit looking for someone's approval/validation in doing so. it makes you come off as sycophantic and spineless.


Why are you SUCH an angry person?


I've decided to stop dissing you a LONG TIME AGO, because you, for one, can't take a joke, and secondly you take things so personal that in response you sink to low and insensitive attacks on people.


I don't need to bash you, any more than I already had in the past. I don't need another to validate it, I've engaged in enough insult fests with you to care any further....


The funny thing is that you and I are usually on the SAME SIDE of every issue, yet we spend more time insulting each other than actually engaging in conversation.

I have no problem with you, personally, and I couldn't care less for your worthless attacks on me, but I can't fathom why you would ever tell Shaky to "stfu" or diss him in ne way....

PVS
Originally posted by Thundar
But you still haven't really acknowledged who's responsible for keeping the fire going. Nor have you acknowledged that Hell is not eternal.



i dont know dude, maybe i just dont have a proper grasp on what 'eternity' means. i though, in my pathetic little mind, that eternity meant 'for ever and ever'.

i guess i am mistaken.

debbiejo
Yeah, he doesn't like me either.......Heaven only knows why...... roll eyes (sarcastic)


The Bible speaks of forever and ever, but also Sodom and Gomorrah was to burn forever, and also Samuel was to be with (forgot his name, Eli by his mother Hannah?) forever.........soooooooo forever really doesn't mean forever.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by debbiejo
Yeah, he doesn't like me either.......Heaven only knows why...... roll eyes (sarcastic)


The Bible speaks of forever and ever, but also Sodom and Gomorrah was to burn forever, and also Samuel was to be with (forgot his name) forever.........soooooooo forever really doesn't mean forever.



I love how the Bible will use words, but not use thier "true meaning"



Maybe I should argue that when St. Paul said Male homosexuality is an abomination, that he really meant its "sacred roll eyes (sarcastic)

PVS
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Why are you SUCH an angry person?


I've decided to stop dissing you a LONG TIME AGO, because you, for one, can't take a joke, and secondly you take things so personal that in response you sink to low and insensitive attacks on people.


I don't need to bash you, any more than I already had in the past. I don't need another to validate it, I've engaged in enough insult fests with you to care any further....


The funny thing is that you and I are usually on the SAME SIDE of every issue, yet we spend more time insulting each other than actually engaging in conversation.

I have no problem with you, personally, and I couldn't care less for your worthless attacks on me, but I can't fathom why you would ever tell Shaky to "stfu" or diss him in ne way....

i always love when people post lengthy insulting diatribes and declare that they are above bashing.

also, i told shaky to stfu because he was patronising by implying that im incapable of research. of course you cant see that because you're being, as i said, sycophantic and spineless. at least thats how you come off on here, as i woudnt presume(nor want) to know you in your day to day life

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by PVS
i always love when people post lengthy insulting diatribes and declare that they are above bashing. also, i told shaky to stfu because he was being a patronising pecker by implying that im incapable of research. of course you cant see that because you're being, as i said, sycophantic and spineless.



droolio




P.S. I didn't insult you.....what is your obsession with conflict ? erm

PVS
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
droolio




P.S. I didn't insult you.....what is your obsession with conflict ? erm `


say what you want, bash all you want, just enough with the games.
whoever told you you're tricky and cute should have their balls stomped till they pop.

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