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does magic ultimately stem from the same energies that created the big bang? if so, HOW is it different from power cosmic, or power primordial, or any of the other obvious 'cosmic' powers?

if it does NOT stem from the same basic source, WHERE does it come from? is there a well of 'mystical' energy somewhere, seperate from the underlying 'cosmic' forces that are the source for all cosmic power?

inquiring minds want to discuss!

Originally posted by leonidas
does magic ultimately stem from the same energies that created the big bang? if so, HOW is it different from power cosmic, or power primordial, or any of the other obvious 'cosmic' powers?

if it does NOT stem from the same basic source, WHERE does it come from? is there a well of 'mystical' energy somewhere, seperate from the underlying 'cosmic' forces that are the source for all cosmic power?

inquiring minds want to discuss! Personally I think Magic was basically made to be its own thing seperate from everything else why.................

Because not every wirter is good enough to combine all points so Magic is the answer.

Originally posted by leonidas
does magic ultimately stem from the same energies that created the big bang? if so, HOW is it different from power cosmic, or power primordial, or any of the other obvious 'cosmic' powers?

if it does NOT stem from the same basic source, WHERE does it come from? is there a well of 'mystical' energy somewhere, seperate from the underlying 'cosmic' forces that are the source for all cosmic power?

inquiring minds want to discuss!

In Marvel it's extradimensional as most of the "Gods" strange call upon are in other dimensions. So this means it multiversal. I think in Marvel it must ultimately come from the laws the TOAA set to define the multiverse.

In DC it comes from Gods laws.

In Dr. Whos Universe the Timelords rewrote the Universal constant to remove it!! Side fact.

In Dr. Whos Universe the Timelords rewrote the Universal constant to remove it!!


I hate magic...just too deus ex machina for me.

edit

It comes from THOTU.

All energy comes from THOTU.

Originally posted by Mindship



I hate magic...just too deus ex machina for me.

Mindship, mindship, mindship......

And Power Cosmic isn't?

This is a good question. But I don't know if there is any real explanation.

Originally posted by By Crom!
In Marvel it's extradimensional as most of the "Gods" strange call upon are in other dimensions. So this means it multiversal. I think in Marvel it must ultimately come from the laws the TOAA set to define the multiverse.

In DC it comes from Gods laws.

In Dr. Whos Universe the Timelords rewrote the Universal constant to remove it!! Side fact.

the entities that strange calls upon are all contained WITHIN eternity -- that is within our "universe." (though a single eternity CAN be seen as a multiverse . . .)

eternity himself stems from the big bang, therefore it stands to reason all things within it stem ultimately from the big bang.

but, does magic ALSO stem from there, or does it come from an outside source? you could be right in saying it stems from toaa -- perhaps he gave us a set amount of magical energy to use within the megaverse of marvel? or perhaps it IS the same energy source that gives rise to cosmic power and it is just utilized in a different way . . .?

Originally posted by Newjak
Personally I think Magic was basically made to be its own thing seperate from everything else why.................

Because not every wirter is good enough to combine all points so Magic is the answer. I repeat this

Originally posted by leonidas
the entities that strange calls upon are all contained WITHIN eternity -- that is within our "universe." (though a single eternity CAN be seen as a multiverse . . .)

eternity himself stems from the big bang, therefore it stands to reason all things within it stem ultimately from the big bang.

but, does magic ALSO stem from there, or does it come from an outside source? you could be right in saying it stems from toaa -- perhaps he gave us a set amount of magical energy to use within the megaverse of marvel? or perhaps it IS the same energy source that gives rise to cosmic power and it is just utilized in a different way . . .?

You say that all the dimensions exist within Eternity Leo, however in Englebert and Brunners Marvel premiere run Strange witnessed the recreation of the Universe (Eternity) outside it and retained his powers whilst doing so.

Originally posted by By Crom!
Mindship, mindship, mindship......
And Power Cosmic isn't?



Natch. But I think the difference is in the way they're used.

Power cosmic gives the impression that it follows at least some physical laws. Yes, the Surfer can "magically" transmute matter, but mostly he just blows stuff up. And if he tried to fire a cosmic bolt through a capable forcefield, he may not succeed, depending on what doubletalk physics the writers decide to use.

Magic, on the other hand, would pass right through that physics-based forcefield. It seems to have no limits: whatever the user (writer) needs to get done is done. This is how beings like Strange can go up against beings like Galactus.

It just ain't fair, I tell ya.

Originally posted by By Crom!
You say that all the dimensions exist within Eternity Leo, however in Englebert and Brunners Marvel premiere run Strange witnessed the recreation of the Universe (Eternity) outside it and retained his powers whilst doing so.



He didn't really retain his powers- didn't Genesis absorb nearly all of them at that point? Genesis took all of the magic from the universe and used it to start the big bang again... so I guess if you count that as the start of the Marvel Universe, then the power cosmic, power primordial is actually just magic...

I honestly think that's my favorite arc ever.

Originally posted by tjcoady
He didn't really retain his powers- didn't Genesis absorb nearly all of them at that point? Genesis took all of the magic from the universe and used it to start the big bang again... so I guess if you count that as the start of the Marvel Universe, then the power cosmic, power primordial is actually just magic...

I honestly think that's my favorite arc ever.

Ahh, but Genesis didn't absorb all of them, the fact Genesis was able to use magic from the Universe outside it also begets the point. Yes a fantastic arc tj. Oh, sidenote for Leo Phoenix was not invented at this point in Marvel history and was not present for the big bang. I'd forgotten this, yet another Marvel "creation" event, kind of scuppers both GS and MM ho hum. PC, PP could well be variations on the wellspring of power, be it TOAA or the HOTU whatever. It could just be another writers ideas of course


Originally posted by Mindship

Natch. But I think the difference is in the way they're used.

Power cosmic gives the impression that it follows at least some physical laws. Yes, the Surfer can "magically" transmute matter, but mostly he just blows stuff up. And if he tried to fire a cosmic bolt through a capable forcefield, he may not succeed, depending on what doubletalk physics the writers decide to use.

Magic, on the other hand, would pass right through that physics-based forcefield. It seems to have no limits: whatever the user (writer) needs to get done is done. This is how beings like Strange can go up against beings like Galactus.

It just ain't fair, I tell ya.

Mindship, Mindship, Mindship

The Silver Surfer Brought Quasimodo to life in FF annual 5. He made a static computer into a living being. Power Cosmic = Magic.

Originally posted by By Crom!
You say that all the dimensions exist within Eternity Leo, however in Englebert and Brunners Marvel premiere run Strange witnessed the recreation of the Universe (Eternity) outside it and retained his powers whilst doing so.



nah, i didn't say ALL dimensions exist within eternity. there is a whole multiverse OUTSIDE eternity. i simply said the entities strange calls on ARE within eternity. strange has acknowledged a couple times that eternity is well above those he usually calls upon.

that arc you're talking about sounds cool. what issues if premiere? what year?

anyway, it would seem (if he DID retain his powers) that perhaps magic DOES extend beyond eternity and is a multiversal phenomenon. that would basically put magic ABOVE cosmic power. or at least SEEM to . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
nah, i didn't say ALL dimensions exist within eternity. there is a whole multiverse OUTSIDE eternity. i simply said the entities strange calls on ARE within eternity. strange has acknowledged a couple times that eternity is well above those he usually calls upon.

that arc you're talking about sounds cool. what issues if premiere? what year?

anyway, it would seem (if he DID retain his powers) that perhaps magic DOES extend beyond eternity and is a multiversal phenomenon. that would basically put magic ABOVE cosmic power. or at least SEEM to . . .

Well as i'm only 19 I can't be sure............ 1974............... I think

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/shumagorath3.jpg

Here is Strange facing a Conan foe from the same arc, the "God" is an "Old One" called Shuma Gorath.

Conan fights Dr Strange foes without magic

you're pretty knowledgeable for a 19 year old! damn . . .

Well, then...how would all these powers relate to one another:
Phoenix Force, Power Cosmic and pinch Magic?

All born of the the same thing (big bang), but all mutated or evolved into different forms of energy?

The Vishanti, or atleast Agamotto's dimension exists outside of Eternity. I clearly remember it stating that Agamotto can view ANY universe in the multiverse and see events in ANY point in time. AS for existing outside a single universe and still within the multiverse, I cant be certain. But readings led me to believe that The Vishanti realms exist on the borders of the multiverse, outside of multi-ternity.

Originally posted by Mindship
Well, then...how would all these powers relate to one another:
Phoenix Force, Power Cosmic and pinch Magic?

Warren Ellis gives the best scientific and original explanation for magic in Planetary. Quantum and string Theory are beginning to suggests that reality might be a infinitely huge information processor, similar to a computer. In accordance with this, Warren Ellis suggests that magic works in a similar way to the way in which a virus works on a traditional computer. I to really hate magic, unless depicted in the same way as shown by the power cosmic, i.e. it has some rules to it. For example if one was to magically increase the size of quantum wave functions one would be able to almost control probability as if it where magnetism or electricity. At the same time it would be still impossible to do certain things, for example one wouldn't be able to make cartoons real

Originally posted by By Crom!


In DC it comes from Gods laws.



Some of it exists outside of Gods rules, i.e. during Morison's run, there where various hints that suggested the 5th Dimension existed outside the bounds of creation. Hence the ease at which the imp was able to imprison the Spectre.

Originally posted by General Mess
Warren Ellis gives the best scientific and original explanation for magic in Planetary. Quantum and string Theory are beginning to suggests that reality might be a infinitely huge information processor, similar to a computer. In accordance with this, Warren Ellis suggests that magic works in a similar way to the way in which a virus works on a traditional computer. I too really hate magic, unless depicted in the same way as shown by the power cosmic, i.e. it has some rules to it. For example if one was to magically increase the size of quantum wave functions one would be able to almost control probability as if it where magnetism or electricity. At the same time it would be still impossible to do certain things, for example one wouldn't be able to make cartoons real

'Zactly.

Ellis' explanation sounds something like my idea of psiconsciousness, ie, being directly aware of quantum wavefunctions (interestingly, "psi" is used by both quantum physicists And parapsychologists). Although I've presented psiconsciousness as an explanation for all superpowers, it would certainly work quite well as an explanation for magic, power cosmic, psionics, reality-warping; pretty much all but the Phoenix Force (which I tend to view as a still-higher level of consciousness: something archetypal or divine).

Originally posted by Ethereal
The Vishanti, or atleast Agamotto's dimension exists outside of Eternity. I clearly remember it stating that Agamotto can view ANY universe in the multiverse and see events in ANY point in time. AS for existing outside a single universe and still within the multiverse, I cant be certain. But readings led me to believe that The Vishanti realms exist on the borders of the multiverse, outside of multi-ternity.

a watcher can view ANY universe in the multiverse as well, and take us to any point. that doesn't mean anything. strange himself HAS said the eternity is the sum of everything and he holds eternity in special esteem. the vishanti DO exist within the bounds of eternity, unless you have something that specifically states otherwise. and they certainky would NOT exist outside of multi-eternity . . .

i can live with the idea that magic transcends physics/cosmic control if it DOES come from a source OUTSIDE/BEYOND the limits set by the big bang. the fact that LT balances the existence of mystical energy as part of his job DOES seem to indicate that there is a set allotment of mystical/magical energy available in the multiverse. i wonder if magic could be viewed as a backdrop to the multiverse, ofver which universes are laid. magic may be the fundamental constant energy, and cosmic energy is simply laid overtop of it. that might explain how 'eternity' is granted life and sentience . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
a watcher can view ANY universe in the multiverse as well, and take us to any point. that doesn't mean anything. strange himself HAS said the eternity is the sum of everything and he holds eternity in special esteem. the vishanti DO exist within the bounds of eternity, unless you have something that specifically states otherwise. and they certainky would NOT exist outside of multi-eternity . . .

i can live with the idea that magic transcends physics/cosmic control if it DOES come from a source OUTSIDE/BEYOND the limits set by the big bang. the fact that LT balances the existence of mystical energy as part of his job DOES seem to indicate that there is a set allotment of mystical/magical energy available in the multiverse. i wonder if magic could be viewed as a backdrop to the multiverse, ofver which universes are laid. magic may be the fundamental constant energy, and cosmic energy is simply laid overtop of it. that might explain how 'eternity' is granted life and sentience . . . I already told you Leo magic as used in Marvel and DC are like the TOAA or the Presence. They are tools used by writers simply to fix problems and come to conslussions without much hassel.

A writer will never give magic an origin or a power source because then it looses it's PIS power.

Originally posted by leonidas
you're pretty knowledgeable for a 19 year old! damn . . .

Some say I am old beyond my years

I've read somewhere that Master Order & Lord Chaos are supposed to be the source of all magic in MU, but I could be wrong....

In general Magic is simply the ability to defy the laws of reality...whether it be in Marvel, DC, Image, Vertigo, Crossgen, Top Cow, etc.


Cosmic power is when one summons and wields the energy of the universe, allowing them to manipulate matter and energy to thier liking.

Magic is gathering of this same source, however, twisting this power to perform feats which totally defy logic:

Ex: In Crossgen's title Mystic, two young sorcerers perform a spell where the entire universe is sucked into a black top hat, and then spit back out....

Everyone knows that magic emits from Richard Simmons fro. That's why it glistens so.

Richard Simmons is eternal.

i always thought that magic stemmed from "god" himself and power cosmic (etc) stemmed from his creation.

does that make sense?

Originally posted by manorastroman
i always thought that magic stemmed from "god" himself and power cosmic (etc) stemmed from his creation.

does that make sense? Makes more sense than my theory.

I think all the above explanations for magic -- and how it differs from power cosmic -- make some sense; but By Crom's point is still valid: essentially they are still both plot devices, only "magic" is more blatant about it. As Newjac implied, Magic = Writer's ignorance + Writer's whim, whereas power cosmic (or psionics or reality-warping) appear to have some limits set on them (though not enough, I suspect, to prevent "magical" tinkering with a story, if the writer really needed that).

Originally posted by Mindship
I think all the above explanations for magic -- and how it differs from power cosmic -- make some sense; but By Crom's point is still valid: essentially they are still both plot devices, only "magic" is more blatant about it. As Newjac implied, Magic = Writer's ignorance + Writer's whim, whereas power cosmic (or psionics or reality-warping) appear to have some limits set on them (though not enough, I suspect, to prevent "magical" tinkering with a story, if the writer really needed that).

If one was able to view wave Functions of particles, would one be able to see particles in ALL states simultaneously, i.e. even states we can't even begin to comprehend ?

Originally posted by King Kandy
It comes from THOTU.

All energy comes from THOTU.

According to what source?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
According to what source?

Logic, if the THOU is transcendant of the known multiverse then ALL energy stemming from there makes rational sense. As De'carte put it to Hume, what is the need for a multitude of Gods ?

Originally posted by General Mess
Logic, if the THOU is transcendant of the known multiverse then ALL energy stemming from there makes rational sense. As De'carte put it to Hume, what is the need for a multitude of Gods ?

IF the hotu is transcendant . . .

neither gs nor myself believe that to be the case.

Originally posted by leonidas
IF the hotu is transcendant . . .

neither gs nor myself believe that to be the case.

I believe it is after all, the magical beings in existence where eradicated by Thanos's actions.

Originally posted by Mindship
I think all the above explanations for magic -- and how it differs from power cosmic -- make some sense; but By Crom's point is still valid: essentially they are still both plot devices, only "magic" is more blatant about it. As Newjac implied, Magic = Writer's ignorance + Writer's whim, whereas power cosmic (or psionics or reality-warping) appear to have some limits set on them (though not enough, I suspect, to prevent "magical" tinkering with a story, if the writer really needed that).

i hear what you're saying, i'm just looking for something more . . . concrete than it is simply a plot device. a set amount of it DOES exist within the closed multiverse, as LT has stated. he is the one who makes sure the balance of mystical energy is not tipped in any one dimensions favor. i like the notion that the magical wellspring stems from toaa, while the cosmic force stems from creation itself. it works for me because it should be IMPOSSIBLE. how can the multiverse contain MORE energy than was expended in its creation? cosmic power uses the allotted energies of creation. magical allottment was thrown in on TOP of that energy by toaa.

may be unproveable, but i like the idea. it's not fool-proof, but it's a start.

Originally posted by leonidas
IF the hotu is transcendant . . .

neither gs nor myself believe that to be the case.

Niether does "By Crom!"

Originally posted by leonidas
how can the multiverse contain MORE energy than was expended in its creation? cosmic power uses the allotted energies of creation. magical allottment was thrown in on TOP of that energy by toaa.

may be unproveable, but i like the idea. it's not fool-proof, but it's a start.



Magic obviously disobeys the second law of Thermodynamics, as does the vacuum of space.

Originally posted by General Mess
I believe it is after all, the magical beings in existence where eradicated by Thanos's actions.

just in a single universe.

by crom!

Originally posted by General Mess
Magic obviously disobeys the second law of Thermodynamics, as does the vacuum of space.

yep.

and i'm not sure if you're referring to 'zero-point' energy in a vacuum, but zero-point energy is not a thermal resevoir, so it is a rather special case.

Originally posted by leonidas
yep.

and i'm not sure if you're referring to 'zero-point' energy in a vacuum, but zero-point energy is not a thermal resevoir, so it is a rather special case.

Zero point may not be much, it depends what research you are reading despite real world examples. The quantity is questionable, damn inertia

Originally posted by General Mess
If one was able to view wave Functions of particles, would one be able to see particles in ALL states simultaneously, i.e. even states we can't even begin to comprehend ?
According to quantum theory (or at least, as far as I understand it), yes.

Cosmic energy and Magic stem from the same place. They are both natural forces that flow through everything, one just branched way to the right while the other stayed on course. Maybe, since it took a different path, it's evolved into something more than just simple energy.
It's like water that's been turned into ice. It looks different, acts different and the rules that water follows don't seem to apply, but it's still water no matter how different.

I don't see any reason to think magic doesn't come from the same place that normal energy comes from.

Originally posted by long pig
Cosmic energy and Magic stem from the same place. They are both natural forces that flow through everything, one just branched way to the right while the other stayed on course. Maybe, since it took a different path, it's evolved into something more than just simple energy.
It's like water that's been turned into ice. It looks different, acts different and the rules that water follows don't seem to apply, but it's still water no matter how different.

I don't see any reason to think magic doesn't come from the same place that normal energy comes from.

hmm, nice analogy.

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, nice analogy.

Although energy isn't really a thing, is more of a process. Its basically movement.

Well, for me Magic have always defies the Cosmic Energy in the sense that it transforms the logical to the illogical.

Meaning a wizard can tranform a toad into a prince.

Magic for me is a power and energy not bound by our science. But rather an independent and unique force outside of our own physics.

Where it came from? No one knows. But it is very probable that it was always there. Unmoved and undiscovered. It takes a great knowledge to obtain it.

So, would you see reality manipulation as only magic? Can science based energy manipulate reality as well?

Maybe

Maybe? I'd say 100% yes.

The only difference is Magic seems to do things quicker, like a short-cut.

Originally posted by long pig
Maybe? I'd say 100% yes.

The only difference is Magic seems to do things quicker, like a short-cut.

i didn't really read any of the thread before saying maybe,i just got bored and was trying to have the last post on the whole first page( i got bored halfway)

Originally posted by long pig
So, would you see reality manipulation as only magic? Can science based energy manipulate reality as well? Direct modulation of quantum wavefunctions ---> reality manipulation (magic). renske

Originally posted by Mindship
Direct modulation of quantum wavefunctions ---> reality manipulation (magic). renske

geek.

Originally posted by leonidas
geek.
bag
(You should see my latest post in Sentry vs Thor)
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/413534_9-sentry-vs-thor#post8249772

tEH ClAsw TeH clAwS!!!!11

Originally posted by long pig
Maybe? I'd say 100% yes.

The only difference is Magic seems to do things quicker, like a short-cut.

quicker? i don't know about that . . . but i'd also say reality manip could be done via either route.