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shifty

Originally posted by Galan007
'The Brothers' Respect Thread: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/432383_1-respect-the-amalgam-brothers-the-most-powerful-duo-in-comic-history

shouldn't the 'brothers' win

Yes they should, but I have seen some other people argue that because Beyonder was "beyond" the MU, that The Brothers couldn't defeat him.

I just want to see what the general consensus is on the matter.

don't people get sick of these silly all-powerful being debates? They're lame and pointless

I'm waiting for the mountains upons mountains of scans that take pages and represent an awful lot of wasted time.

Squirrel Girl

Originally posted by boriquaking55
don't people get sick of these silly all-powerful being debates? They're lame and pointless

I'm waiting for the mountains upons mountains of scans that take pages and represent an awful lot of wasted time.

Squirrel Girl So this thread is lame and pointless because you think it is?

If you don't like the topic, you don't need to spam the thread.

Originally posted by Galan007
So this thread is lame and pointless because you think it is?

If you don't like the topic, you don't need to spam the thread.

I figured I would get that kind of response.

The Beyonder 10/10, I've seen nothing from the Brothers that would say otherwise. Brutal curbstomp in favor of beyonder

Originally posted by boriquaking55
I figured I would get that kind of response.

The Beyonder 10/10, I've seen nothing from the Brothers that would say otherwise. Brutal curbstomp in favor of beyonder And what has Beyonder done that would lead you to believe that?

Killing Death and creating a Universe?


The Brothers were everything in their respective compaines (Marvel and DC).

LT and Spectre were so miniscule in comparison to them, that the Brothers didn't even register them as threats.

Originally posted by Galan007
And what has Beyonder done that would lead you to believe that?

Killing Death and creating a Universe?


The Brothers were everything in their respective compaines (Marvel and DC).

LT and Spectre were so miniscule in comparison to them, that the Brothers didn't even register them as threats.

Beyonder has more feats than the Brothers did, right? What did they do that wasn't hyperbole? Any scans?

Originally posted by boriquaking55
Beyonder has more feats than the Brothers did, right? What did they do that wasn't hyperbole? Any scans? Dude, Spectre and LT actually tried stopping the Brothers, and it was like a speck of dust against an 18 wheeler truck.

The Brothers were responsible for the creation of both Marvel and DC. There was nothing above them.

i was just under the impression since the brothers created the universe's that they were more powerful then anyone in either marvel or dc

Originally posted by Galan007
Dude, Spectre and LT actually tried stopping the Brothers, and it was like a speck of dust against an 18 wheeler truck.

The Brothers were responsible for the creation of both Marvel and DC. There was nothing above them.

Really? I thought it was Stan Lee and Malcolm Nicholson, with help from Kirby, Siegel, & Shuster. Bah, I guess I was wrong.

Edit: Anyone have any scans?

Originally posted by boriquaking55
What did they do that wasn't hyperbole? Any scans? For starters, the Brothers were responsible for ALL of creation:
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1076/bro5vc5.th.jpghttp://img207.imageshack.us/img207/9568/bro6dw0.th.jpg

LT and Spectre were awed by the power of the Brothers:
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/9734/bro15qz2.th.jpghttp://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5062/bro16bi3.th.jpg

Spectre and LT tried stopping the Brothers, but their powers were so miniscule in comparison, that they weren't even noticed:
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/9656/bro18ln6.th.jpg


Beyonder was badass, but come on........

Originally posted by boriquaking55
Really? I thought it was Stan Lee and Malcolm Nicholson, with help from Kirby, Siegel, & Shuster. Bah, I guess I was wrong.

Edit: Anyone have any scans? I made a respect thread dedicated to the Brothers. It can be seen here:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/432383_1-respect-the-amalgam-brothers-the-most-powerful-duo-in-comic-history

that was jla/avengers correct?

Is that even canon anymore?

Originally posted by boriquaking55
Is that even canon anymore? It's just as cannon as Secret Wars II

The Brothers have since been retconned.

Thats why I said pre-retcon Brothers

Originally posted by Galan007
Dude, Spectre and LT actually tried stopping the Brothers, and it was like a speck of dust against an 18 wheeler truck.

This doesn't really mean much because LT was nothing to the Beyonder aswell.

Heck, LT didn't even try to attack Beyonder.


Originally posted by Galan007
The Brothers were responsible for the creation of both Marvel and DC. There was nothing above them.

I don't know about that, I just read those scans, it clearly says they were a Multiverse each.

Beyonder was from beyond the Multiverse.

and Beyonder's Universe was an Ocean, while that Marvel/Brother Multiverse is a Drop of water in comparison.

Originally posted by Mr Master
This doesn't really mean much because LT was nothing to the Beyonder aswell.

Heck, LT didn't even try to attack Beyonder. They never actually fought though, so who knows?

You think that Thanos /w/ THOTU>Beyonder correct?

So why would you think differently of the Brothers who were clearly of AT LEAST equal power?

Originally posted by Mr Master
I don't know about that, I just read those scans, it clearly says they were a Multiverse each.

Beyonder was from beyond the Multiverse.

and Beyonder's Universe was an Ocean, while that Marvel/Brother Multiverse is a Drop of water in comparison.
The scans also say that they were responsible for the first creation as well. They were ALL of it.

And does the Beyonder Universe scan say that our Multiverse was a drop of water in comparison?

Originally posted by Mr Master
This doesn't really mean much because LT was nothing to the Beyonder aswell.

Heck, LT didn't even try to attack Beyonder.




I don't know about that, I just read those scans, it clearly says they were a Multiverse each.

Beyonder was from beyond the Multiverse.

and Beyonder's Universe was an Ocean, while that Marvel/Brother Multiverse is a Drop of water in comparison.

Now why should the living tribunal go fight against the beyonder, he had no reason to do so.

And the general thought on beyonder is that he is fromt the universe of the beyonders, this universe exist in a different reality, so the beyonder is also part of one of the brothers (don't know which one is marvel and dc) If we follow your logic then the infinites would also be outside oure multiverse, which i don't think it is, here we are talking not about a universe but a omniverse. (The marvel and DC) combined

So this can go either way then, correct?

Originally posted by boriquaking55
So this can go either way then, correct? If Beyonder>The ones responsible for ALL of creation within Marvel and DC, then yes it could go either way. If not, then Beyonder looses horribly

The scans say that they each Brother encompassed a Multiverse, and by Mr M's own definition....... each universe in a Multiverse is infinite, and a Multiverse is composed of an infinite ammount of universes.

Beyonders Universe was only compared to one universe. It was never compared to a Multiverse.

so going by that

Brothers>Beyonder

Originally posted by Utrigita
Now why should the living tribunal go fight against the beyonder, he had no reason to do so.

And the general thought on beyonder is that he is fromt the universe of the beyonders, this universe exist in a different reality, so the beyonder is also part of one of the brothers (don't know which one is marvel and dc) If we follow your logic then the infinites would also be outside oure multiverse, which i don't think it is, here we are talking not about a universe but a omniverse. (The marvel and DC) combined

living tribunal helps the 'brothers', how's that

Originally posted by Galan007
They never actually fought though, so who knows?

Beyonder's presence in the Multiverse is more than enough reason for LT to act, because he is a Mystical Imbalance of power to the Multiverse.

This proves LT did nothing, because he could do nothing.


Originally posted by Galan007
You think that Thanos /w/ THOTU>Beyonder correct?

Not really.

Beyonder demonstrated more power than THOTI.

Beyonder took over TOAA's Multiverse (Omniverse back then)

Beyonder created a Universe roughly over 20 Quintillion times more Infinite than said Multiverse.


The biggest Feat the HOTI has, is the LT absorption, that's unimaginable but not when your comparing it to the Beyonder.


Originally posted by Galan007
So why would you think differently of the Brothers who were clearly of AT LEAST equal power?

Ah, but you thought I thought the Beyonder<THOTI.

When in fact I think, Beyonder>THOTI.


Originally posted by Galan007
The scans also say that they were responsible for the first creation as well. They were ALL of it.

I'm not arguing they were all of creation with in their respective Multiverses, but this Marvel vs Dc came out in 96-97, and it was NEVER continuity Canon.

The Infinity Being was established in Continuity Canon Titles as the First and ALL, back in 1990.


Originally posted by Galan007
And does the Beyonder Universe scan say that our Multiverse was a drop of water in comparison?

On the top of every First Page in Secret Wars II.

A UNIVERSE to which OUR OWN is as a DROPLET of Water to the Ocean
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/6536/buni1sh8.th.jpg

"Our Own" means our Multiverse, because the Beyond Realm lies Beyond it.


Multi-Eternity (as Eternity) was the one that spoke to Beyonder, pleading NOT to erase Multi-Death:

"I, Eternity, am ENEMY to NONE...I take no sides, for I ENCOMPASS ALL"
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/5199/death7tq4.th.jpg
"It is MY DESTINY we consider here ... MY DESTINY you hold in your hands"


MY DESTINY?


A SINGLE Universe is representing the Multiverse?

So this must be the Multiverse ("Our Own" or (ALL Eternity) representing itself.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Now why should the living tribunal go fight against the beyonder, he had no reason to do so.

Really?

What do you think the Living Tribunal's function is?

To safeguard the Multiversal Balance
http://img320.imageshack.us/img320/7840/ltny5.th.jpg


Beyonder ERASED Death from the Multiverse:

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8712/d1ve2.th.jpg

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4596/d2jb9.th.jpg

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7426/d3qm1.th.jpg

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/6859/beyonderkillsdeath3tq0.th.jpg


What do you think this would lead to?


A Multiversal Imbalance! (ALL the reason in the Multiverse for LT to ACT)


Originally posted by Utrigita
And the general thought on beyonder is that he is fromt the universe of the beyonders, this universe exist in a different reality, so the beyonder is also part of one of the brothers (don't know which one is marvel and dc)

Your confusing PRE-RETCON with POST.

PRE-RETCON Beyonder has NOTHING to do with the "Beyonders."


Originally posted by Utrigita
If we follow your logic then the infinites would also be outside oure multiverse, which i don't think it is,

I don't see how this fits with what I was saying.


Originally posted by Utrigita
here we are talking not about a universe but a omniverse. (The marvel and DC) combined

I didn't see that word Omniverse, where did you?

Hey Mr M

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/438700_1-genesis-marvel-premiere-issue-10-14-1974-vs-phoenix-or-anything-else-at

Originally posted by boriquaking55
So this can go either way then, correct?

Beyonder takes it.

Originally posted by By Crom!
Hey Mr M

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/438700_1-genesis-marvel-premiere-issue-10-14-1974-vs-phoenix-or-anything-else-at





Sis-neg wasn't "God"

And the ONLY Natural Big Bang in any of those events was the Entropy destruction and Creation of the 616 Universe/Eternity.

Which I have come to except as the TRUE Big Bang of Marvel.

It took place ON PANEL, it involved the 616 Universe/Eternity and it cycled END in the form of Entropy,

Entropy then initiates a Big Bang with his body and Eternity the 616 Universe is Created again, until the next appointed time for Entropy to do it all over again.



NEVER once is Phoenix mentioned in your Marvel link,

So thanx, I'm right

First question: Is erasing death not survival of the fittest, beyonder was stronger then death, so thats survival of the fittest.

Now we are using pre then you must accept this! The Beyonder was the sum total of a pocket dimension called the Beyond-Realm or simply "Beyond", hence the name "Beyonder". This dimension was accidentally accessed by nebbish lab technician Owen Reece. Now I don't khow about but from what i have learned from a multiverse, is thats it consist of universes and possible dimonsion. And again if he is so powerful and capable of beating the Brothers then I find it strange that he needs a accident to look into oure univers. And again you saying its the multiverse that is ofcause you analyse i analyse it as oure own universe not everything.

Originally posted by Mr Master
A UNIVERSE to which OUR OWN is as a DROPLET of Water to the Ocean
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/6536/buni1sh8.th.jpg Nothing in this scan leads me to believe it is refering to a Multiverse. Never once is a Multiverse refered to.

Here is the same scan blown up so people actually read it:
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/5518/bey6cb.jpg

Where is a Multiverse refered to in that scan?

You think Beyonder is more powerful then beings whom created ALL of Marvel and DC, which equals at least 2 Multiverses?

Overhyping him a bit aren't you?

He erased death, and created a Universe much bigger then our own. How does that lead you to your conclusion?

I agree Beyonder never did anything on panel than the HOTU.

Originally posted by Mr Master


Sis-neg wasn't "God"

And the ONLY Natural Big Bang in any of those events was the Entropy destruction and Creation of the 616 Universe/Eternity.

Which I have come to except as the TRUE Big Bang of Marvel.

It took place ON PANEL, it involved the 616 Universe/Eternity and it cycled END in the form of Entropy,

Entropy then initiates a Big Bang with his body and Eternity the 616 Universe is Created again, until the next appointed time for Entropy to do it all over again.



NEVER once is Phoenix mentioned in your Marvel link,

So thanx, I'm right

Actually by recreating the universe he becomes "God" of that Universe.



It's not a natural big bang it's magic induced.



Of course Phoenix isn't mentioned you lack comprehension skills.

Originally posted by By Crom!
Actually by recreating the universe he becomes "God" of that Universe.



It's not a natural big bang it's magic induced.



Of course Phoenix isn't mentioned you lack comprehension skills.



So be becomes god of that univers great for beyonder, but that universe is still under the survalliance of the LT like all others.

Try again

Originally posted by Utrigita
So be becomes god of that univers great for beyonder, but that universe is still under the survalliance of the LT like all others.

Try again


My Response to all scans and arguments in this thread if they happened is........

I don't dispute the creation event took place, however, the event is only a moment in Marvel History and

As anyone sane knows:

Perhaps the fact that multiple beings have experienced multiple origins of the universe actually means that the 616 reality is always in a state of flux, constantly re-writing itself as time goes on.

By Crom!

Marvels own words it was a big bang

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe

Originally posted by Mordum
I agree Beyonder never did anything on panel than the HOTU.

ur saying beyonder<hoti

does anyone know when the name beyonder appeared?

its a ff issue, just don't know the issue

Originally posted by guy222
ur saying beyonder<hoti

does anyone know when the name beyonder appeared?

its a ff issue, just don't know the issue


My Response to all scans and arguments in this thread if they happened is........

I don't dispute the creation event took place, however, the event is only a moment in Marvel History and

As anyone sane knows:

Perhaps the fact that multiple beings have experienced multiple origins of the universe actually means that the 616 reality is always in a state of flux, constantly re-writing itself as time goes on.

By Crom!

Marvels own words it was a big bang

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe

Originally posted by Galan007
Nothing in this scan leads me to believe it is refering to a Multiverse. Never once is a Multiverse refered to.

You have that right to your opinion.


Originally posted by Galan007
Here is the same scan blown up so people actually read it:
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/5518/bey6cb.jpg

I can read my scan just aswell as this one.

If you can't actually read it, you should say, "so I can actually read it" NOT people.


Originally posted by Galan007
Where is a Multiverse refered to in that scan?

Beyonder was from OUTSIDE the Multiverse, so Beyonder NOTICED the Multiverse, not just a single Universe of the Multiverse.


Originally posted by Galan007
You think Beyonder is more powerful then beings whom created ALL of Marvel and DC, which equals at least 2 Multiverses?

You mean a whole TWO Multiverses mega_shok


You have MANY MILLIONS of Multiverses to go before you reach Beyonder:
http://img431.imageshack.us/img431/7524/beyondermillionsofxmorepowerfu.th.jpg
Beyonder is Millions of Times More Powerful than ALL the Rest of the Multiverse Combined.


Originally posted by Galan007
Overhyping him a bit aren't you?

http://img431.imageshack.us/img431/7524/beyondermillionsofxmorepowerfu.th.jpg


Originally posted by Galan007
He erased death, and created a Universe much bigger then our own. How does that lead you to your conclusion?

He erased Multi-Death, and created a Universe Quintillions of times more Infinite than the Multiverse.

Is this surprising?

Of course not,

Beyonder is Millions of Times More Powerful than ALL the Rest of the Multiverse Combined. (ON PANEL)

Originally posted by Mr Master





He erased Multi-Death, and created a Universe Quintillions of times more Infinite than the Multiverse.

Is this surprising?

Of course not,

Beyonder is Millions of Times More Powerful than ALL the Rest of the Multiverse Combined. (ON PANEL)


My Response to all scans and arguments in this thread if they happened is........

I don't dispute the creation event took place, however, the event is only a moment in Marvel History and

As anyone sane knows:

Perhaps the fact that multiple beings have experienced multiple origins of the universe actually means that the 616 reality is always in a state of flux, constantly re-writing itself as time goes on.

By Crom!

Marvels own words it was a big bang

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe

Originally posted by Mordum
I agree Beyonder never did anything on panel than the HOTU.

What did the HOTU do, that surpasses Beyonder?

Just great,

we have a spamming troll in the house.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Just great,

we have a spamming troll in the house.

Not really I am pointing out that;


Multiple beings have experienced multiple origins of the universe actually means that the 616 reality is always in a state of flux, constantly re-writing itself as time goes on.

Marvels own words it was a big bang

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe



That's not spam it's a fact hence retconns and multiple reasons and why you can never have a hierarchy

It's no more spam than multiple reposting of scans of "events" snapshots of moments.

Crom posting the same exact thing three times is spam.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Beyonder was from OUTSIDE the Multiverse, so Beyonder NOTICED the Multiverse, not just a single Universe of the Multiverse. .It never says anything about a Multiverse in that scan, you may think that's what it's talking about....... But the bottom line is that a Multiverse is never once mentioned.


By your definition, even though the scans of the Brothers is refering to a Multiverse, I could argue that it must mean that the Brothers created trillions of Multiverses, even though it isn't even mentioned in the scan.

How well would that hold up?


Originally posted by Mr Master
You mean a whole TWO Multiverses mega_shok


You have MANY MILLIONS of Multiverses to go before you reach Beyonder:
http://img431.imageshack.us/img431/7524/beyondermillionsofxmorepowerfu.th.jpg
Beyonder is Millions of Times More Powerful than ALL the Rest of the Multiverse Combined. Hyperbole at it's best.

What did Beyonder actually do that would warrant that claim?

Erasing Death?
Creating A universe much bigger then our own?
Beating some Celestials?


Come on.

Nothing he actually did on pannel equates to him being that powerful.

Originally posted by Stupid Rookie
Crom would you please stop, that is so stupid.

Why is it stupid it's Marvels own opinion as to why different creations have taken place. Are you saying Marvel is stupid?

Multiple beings have experienced multiple origins of the universe actually means that the 616 reality is always in a state of flux, constantly re-writing itself as time goes on.

Marvels own words it was a big bang

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe

LOL to think I only started staying Beyonder to yank Galan's chain - I was waiting for people start posting huge posts of scans.

Guess my bait worked

Originally posted by By Crom!
Not really I am pointing out that


multiple beings have experienced multiple origins of the universe actually means that the 616 reality is always in a state of flux, constantly re-writing itself as time goes on.

Marvels own words it was a big bang

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe



That's not spam it's a fact hence retconns and multiple reasons and why you can never have a hierarchy

It's no more spam than multiple reposting of scans of "events" snapshots of moments.

You posted this Three times already, and no one cares.

You insult others quickly and without merit.

You said I lack comprehension skills cause I said it didn't mention Phoenix, uncalled for.

You actually made a thread trying to diffuse what we see and believe that has occured On Panel.

It ain't gonna happen, not now, not ever. (so do what you do)

Originally posted by Mr Master
You posted this Three times already, and no one cares.

You insult others quickly and without merit.

You said I lack comprehension skills cause I said it didn't mention Phoenix, uncalled for.

You actually made a thread trying to diffuse what we see and believe that has occured On Panel.

It ain't gonna happen, not now, not ever. (so do what you do)

Originally posted by Mr Master
You posted this Three times already, and no one cares.

You insult others quickly and without merit.

You said I lack comprehension skills cause I said it didn't mention Phoenix, uncalled for.

You actually made a thread trying to diffuse what we see and believe that has occured On Panel.

It ain't gonna happen, not now, not ever. (so do what you do)

Marvel cares

It's their own opinion as to why multiple origins exist in continuity. Are Marvel wrong I don't think so. "Diffuse" isn't really the right word to use, but then it's all about comprehension, no insult intended.

Multiple beings have experienced multiple origins of the universe actually means that the 616 reality is always in a state of flux, constantly re-writing itself as time goes on.

Marvels own words it was a big bang

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe

Originally posted by By Crom!
Why is it stupid it's Marvels own opinion as to why different creations have taken place. Are you saying Marvel is stupid?

Multiple beings have experienced multiple origins of the universe actually means that the 616 reality is always in a state of flux, constantly re-writing itself as time goes on.

Marvels own words it was a big bang

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe



Should have been more specific, It was in response to you posting the same thing three times. I am not mad at your argument, only that you felt the need to duplicate it 3 times.

Originally posted by Stupid Rookie
Should have been more specific, It was in response to you posting the same thing three times. I am not mad at your argument, only that you felt the need to duplicate it 3 times.
It's the perfect response to all the rubbish people spout and it's Marvels own opinion to the multiple creation ideas and rather than saying any of them are wrong it embraces them all.

Multiple beings have experienced multiple origins of the universe actually means that the 616 reality is always in a state of flux, constantly re-writing itself as time goes on.

Marvels own words it was a big bang

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe

You are an IDIOT.

Stop posting the same exact thing numerous times.

Posting the same thing three times is not the perfect response.

Originally posted by Galan007
It never says anything about a Multiverse in that scan, you may think that's what it's talking about....... But the bottom line is that a Multiverse is never once mentioned.

As you wish.

I already explained why it was the Multiverse, so I'll leave it at that.

Beyonder was Million of times MORE powerful than the Multiverse combined, but it's impossible that he created a Universe bigger than the Multiverse.

Got it.


Originally posted by Galan007
By your definition, even though the scans of the Brothers is refering to a Multiverse, I could argue that it must mean that the Brothers created trillions of Multiverses, even though it isn't even mentioned in the scan.

How well would that hold up?

Not very well indeed since you have nothing else to back it up.

But I thoroughly explained why it's a Multiverse in Beyonder's case, besides just the term.


Originally posted by Galan007
Hyperbole at it's best.

Funny, could of sworn I saw you using the same scan to defend Beyonder in the Mxy vs Beyonder thread.

Now it's "hyperbole"

Even though it's not just a statement, even though we can SEE the power of Millions of Multiverses FLOWING into the Beyonder.


Originally posted by Galan007
What did Beyonder actually do that would warrant that claim?

Erasing Death?
Creating A universe much bigger then our own?
Beating some Celestials?


Come on.

What the hell did the Brothers do?

Fight each other?

Not noticing LT and Spectre?


Originally posted by Galan007
Nothing he actually did on pannel equates to him being that powerful.

If you say so.

IMO, Beyonder>Brothers


Beyonder took over what would have been the "OMNIVERSE" back then, since there was ONLY the Multiverse and the Beyond Realm.

And Beyonder was ther Beyond Realm.

Originally posted by Mr Master
As you wish.

I already explained why it was the Multiverse, so I'll leave it at that.

Beyonder was Million of times MORE powerful than the Multiverse combined, but it's impossible that he created a Universe bigger than the Multiverse.

Got it.




Not very well indeed since you have nothing else to back it up.

But I thoroughly explained why it's a Multiverse in Beyonder's case, besides just the term.




Funny, could of swron I saw you using the same scan to defend Beyond in the Mxy vs Beyonder thread.

Now it's "hyperbole"

Even though it's not just a statement, even though we can SEE the power of Millions of Multiverses FLOWING into the Beyonder.




What the hell did the Brothers do?

Fight each other?

Not noticing LT and Spectre?




If you say so.

IMO, Beyonder>Brothers


Beyonder took over what would have been the "OMNIVERSE" back then, since there was ONLY the Multiverse and the Beyond Realm.

And Beyonder was ther Beyond Realm. Ok, fair enough.

You know as well as I do, that we would just go back and forth for hours reiterating the same points over and over.

You respected my opinion, so I'll respect yours as well.

Originally posted by Galan007
You are an IDIOT.

Stop posting the same exact thing numerous times.

Outburst

Anyway back to the point.

What:-

Multiple beings have experienced multiple origins of the universe actually means that the 616 reality is always in a state of flux, constantly re-writing itself as time goes on.

means is that the Phoenix Force (questionable but some evidence exists) created the Universe, The Brothers created the Universe, Genesis created the Universe etc, etc, because the "plan" blueprint if you like for 616 is constantly changing. At the time each of these events happened.

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe




Originally posted by Stupid Rookie
Posting the same thing three times is not the perfect response.

Seems perfect as it's Marvels own opinion and makes perfect sense.

All we have to do is REPORT this person and the thread will stop being swamped with spams.

I just did

Originally posted by Galan007
I just did

Originally posted by Galan007
I just did


Originally posted by Mr Master
All we have to do is REPORT this person and the thread will stop being swamped with spams.
Cool

For posting an opinion from Marvel which contradicts your many scans

lol

I don't see it working.

LOL You guy's took my bait, I was just messin' at the beginning of this thread.

Originally posted by boriquaking55
LOL You guy's took my bait, I was just messin' at the beginning of this thread.

Trust me, I took no bait. I admire your pluck though.

Originally posted by By Crom!
Cool

For posting an opinion from Marvel which contradicts your many scans

lol

I don't see it working.



Oh damn! I'm quoting myself....

And makes sense of the myriad creation events wich befuddle fans and make continuity at Marvel a nonsense!

Originally posted by Stupid Rookie
Crom posting the same exact thing three times is spam.

You made your point Crom. Start making new ones, or take it somewhere else....it's just needlessly beligerent to post the same thing rather than engaging in actual discussion.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
You made your point Crom. Start making new ones, or take it somewhere else....it's just needlessly beligerent to post the same thing rather than engaging in actual discussion.

Surely though my point has not been addressed.

Instead I have been called an "idiot" for stating Marvels own opinion in regards to the multiple origin continuity issue.

Please explain to me over p.m. rather than for us to interfere with this thread how that is beligerent .



Although I agree, I have made my point in regards to continuity arguments.

Originally posted by Mr Master
What did the HOTU do, that surpasses Beyonder?

They created a multiverse. Where Beyonder only created a singe universe. And that universe is contained in the multiverse.

Originally posted by h1a8
They created a multiverse. Where Beyonder only created a singe universe. And that universe is contained in the multiverse.

Incorrect my friend.


Beyonder Created an Infinite Universe OUTSIDE the Multiverse,

and it was EVERYTHING OUTSIDE the Multiverse.

Into the Infinite Beyond!

Originally posted by Mr Master
Into the Infinite Beyond! That's a moot point though.

Even you have said that each Universe within the Multiverse is infinite.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Incorrect my friend.


Beyonder Created an Infinite Universe OUTSIDE the Multiverse,

and it was EVERYTHING OUTSIDE the Multiverse.

Into the Infinite Beyond!

Ha Ha Ha
That's silly. You can never create a universe outside a multiverse.
There exists more than 1 multiverse thus proving that it also couldn't be everything outside the multiverse (singular). Lastly, to disprove your argument, whatever universe Beyonder on anyone creates, and it is shown in marvel, then it is in the marvel multiverse by definition (because it is in marvel comics). Thus automatically making the Brothers greater.

Originally posted by h1a8
Ha Ha Ha
That's silly. You can never create a universe outside a multiverse.
There exists more than 1 multiverse thus proving that it also couldn't be everything outside the multiverse (singular). Lastly, to disprove your argument, whatever universe Beyonder on anyone creates, and it is shown in marvel, then it is in the marvel multiverse by definition (because it is in marvel comics). Thus automatically making the Brothers greater.

It's true, if it's a Universe in Marvel comics it has to be by definition part of the Marvel Multiverse. Although more than one Multiverse may exist like DC and Marvel.



Originally posted by Galan007
That's a moot point though.

Even you have said that each Universe within the Multiverse is infinite.

If something resides within something else it's finite.



Although cosmologists might argue it's a matter of perspective.

Originally posted by Galan007
That's a moot point though.

Even you have said that each Universe within the Multiverse is infinite.

That's not a "moot" point at all duke.


This is how Marvel, the company that creates these characters measures INFINITY!

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/8929/infipo9.th.jpg

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/958/infi2lt7.th.jpg


"Thus are demonstrated TWO LEVELS of Infinity, there are of course, an INFINITE number MORE"
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/1130/infi3rl5.th.jpg



Dr Strange and the Concept of Infinity ...


"the very Concept of Infinity is relative, Numbers are Infinite, so are odd Numbers, yet by definition, there are Twice as many Numbers as there are odd Numberse
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/4600/infinitymoremx9.th.jpg
"One "Infinity" is included within a larger "Infinity"


The Infinity in Beyonder's Universe FAR exceeds the Infinity of the Multiverse in the PRE-Era.


Let's think it through before we flash the "moot" around here.

Originally posted by Mr Master



"One "Infinity" is included within a larger "Infinity"




If something resides within something else it's finite.



Although cosmologists might argue it's a matter of perspective.

Which means infinity is a term which is often used when dealing with numbers on a scale to large to be calculated.

i.e. Black hole calculations go infinite (and they do)

Originally posted by Mr Master
The Infinity in Beyonder's Universe FAR exceeds the Infinity of the Multiverse in the PRE-Era. Even though a Multiverse was never once mentioned in comparison to Beyonder's Universe?

Ok.

Originally posted by By Crom!
If something resides within something else it's finite.

FALSE

there are an infinite number of prime but they all reside within the infinite set of real number which is itself within the infinite set of complex numbers

Originally posted by h1a8
Ha Ha Ha
That's silly. You can never create a universe outside a multiverse.

If you would have read Secret Wars you would realize it isn't that funny.

Read Comics friend then laugh at others.


He's Beyond the Multiverse! .. and He is EVERYTHING Beyond the Multiverse!
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/9851/beyondspaceandtimefk9.th.jpg

Just like the Omniverse is everything in Marvel Now.

So the Multi-verse was EVERYTHING upto May 84' and the Beyond Realm was EVERYTHING OUTSIDE of the Marvel Multi-verse between May 1984 and Nov. 86' (when the New Universe was introduced)


Beyonder was All there was outside the Multiverse
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6606/beyondspacetime2pq7.th.jpg


Originally posted by h1a8
There exists more than 1 multiverse thus proving that it also couldn't be everything outside the multiverse (singular).

Not in the PRE-Retcon Era.

Let's pay attention yall.

There was ONLY ONE Multiverse and the Beyond Realm upto Nov. 86.

Originally posted by h1a8
Lastly, to disprove your argument, whatever universe Beyonder on anyone creates, and it is shown in marvel, then it is in the marvel multiverse by definition (because it is in marvel comics). Thus automatically making the Brothers greater.

I think not.

Again, go pick up the Series Secret Wars, and realize that there was ONLY ONE Multiverse in the MID 80's.

Your really talking without knowing and claiming your disproving my argument when you don't even know Marvel History.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Just like the Omniverse is everything in Marvel Now.

So the Multi-verse was EVERYTHING upto May 84' and the Beyond Realm was EVERYTHING OUTSIDE of the Marvel Multi-verse between May 1984 and Nov. 86' (when the New Universe was introduced) Wait.

The whole 'Jaspers Warp' arch was originally published between 1981-1983 if I'm not mistaken...

So at the time of the Beyonder (1984), wouldn't have there technically been an Omniverse within Marvel?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
FALSE

there are an infinite number of prime but they all reside within the infinite set of real number which is itself within the infinite set of complex numbers

Actually true, however when used in the context of a region this is not the case.

Originally posted by Galan007
Even though a Multiverse was never once mentioned in comparison to Beyonder's Universe?

Ok.


If the Beyonder was Millions of Times More Powerful than ALL the Rest of the Multiverse Combined.

http://img431.imageshack.us/img431/7524/beyondermillionsofxmorepowerfu.th.jpg

Then it stands to reason his Universe was exactly that.


Even if we take your interpretation, what difference does it make?

It still does not put a limit on the size of the Beyond Realm.

How many "drops" does it take to make a Multiverse?

How do you know?

You don't, and neither do I.

Originally posted by Mr Master
If you would have read Secret Wars you would realize it isn't that funny.

Read Comics friend then laugh at others.




Secret Wars is incredibly stupid.

Stupid highlights of the Trade, just about the whole story. My fave stupidity is page 333 where Ben Grimm in his Black trunks decides to stay on a planet with just the dodgy locals or page 194 when Cap knocks out the Enchantress. In fact lets forget the whole book shall we.

Read comics not scans my friend.

But then it wasn't any better as individual comics although I am to young to know this

Originally posted by Galan007
Wait.

The whole 'Jaspers Warp' arch was originally published between 1981-1983 if I'm not mistaken...

So at the time of the Beyonder (1984), wouldn't have there technically been an Omniverse within Marvel?

I explained this before, maybe you wasn't in that thread.


The Continuity was not linked at that time between Captain Britain related titles and Continuity Marvel Multiversal stories.

This is why the Jaspers Warp series was Remade, in the form of X-Men Archives #1-7. (95')

Originally posted by Mr Master
I explained this before, maybe you wasn't in that thread.


The Continuity was not linked at that time between Captain Britain related titles and Continuity Marvel Multiversal stories.

This is why the Jaspers Warp series was Remade, in the form of X-Men Archives #1-7. That's what I thought.

I know it started out as a British comic, so I figured it may have been out of continuity with the mainstream MU.

I just thought I'd ask.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I explained this before, maybe you wasn't in that thread.


The Continuity was not linked at that time between Captain Britain related titles and Continuity Marvel Multiversal stories.

This is why the Jaspers Warp series was Remade, in the form of X-Men Archives #1-7.

The Jaspers War was published originally in black and white in the U.K. in the early eighties in the one that reprinted the Avengers stories and Captain Britain Monthly.



I loved the nod to Miracleman in Warrior with his death at the hands of the fury.

It was of course Earth 238 if I remember correctly

and I usually do

Originally posted by By Crom!
The Jaspers War was published originally in black and white in the U.K. in the early eighties in the one that reprinted the Avengers stories and Captain Britain Monthly. Yeah, it's well worth it to buy "X-Men Archives: Featuring Captain Britain" #1-#7, instead of the original comics.

They at least have color.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, it's well worth it to buy "X-Men Archives: Featuring Captain Britain" #1-#7, instead of the original comics.

They at least have color.

I have the original English issues. It was Earth 238 if I remember rightly. Warrior was a much better comic though. Shandor and Miracleman were far superior strips as was the original V for Vendetta.

Originally posted by By Crom!
I have the original English issues. I'm sorry.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, it's well worth it to buy "X-Men Archives: Featuring Captain Britain" #1-#7, instead of the original comics.

They at least have color.

I'll send you the copies if you want.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I'll send you the copies if you want. Actually I just ordered and recieved them a few days ago.

I plan on reading them later on tonight.

-Thanks for the offer though!

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm sorry.

No probs, i'm going to post some scans from the most famous comic of the last 20 years Miracleman 16 this week in the comic books section in fact quite a few.

Originally posted by Mr Master
If you would have read Secret Wars you would realize it isn't that funny.

Read Comics friend then laugh at others.


He's Beyond the Multiverse! .. and He is EVERYTHING Beyond the Multiverse!



I've read Secret Wars many times as a kid. There is more than 1 multiverse, so saying "Beyond the Multiverse" is incorrect (must use plural noun unless you are referring to the Marvel Multiverse). In conjunction to that, there is no mention that he is outside the Marvel multiverse (maybe UNIVERSE) for that would be impossible due to the definition of the Marvel Multiverse.
You missing a very easy point.
By definition: The Marvel multiverse is the collection of all the universes that exist in the marvel comics. Also by definition: any universe that is shown by Marvel then it is in the Marvel Multiverse. Thus making the statement "He's Beyond the Multiverse! .. and He is EVERYTHING Beyond the Multiverse!" false.

Originally posted by Galan007
It never says anything about a Multiverse in that scan, you may think that's what it's talking about....... But the bottom line is that a Multiverse is never once mentioned.


By your definition, even though the scans of the Brothers is refering to a Multiverse, I could argue that it must mean that the Brothers created trillions of Multiverses, even though it isn't even mentioned in the scan.

How well would that hold up?


Hyperbole at it's best.

What did Beyonder actually do that would warrant that claim?

Erasing Death?
Creating A universe much bigger then our own?
Beating some Celestials?


Come on.

Nothing he actually did on pannel equates to him being that powerful.

What ive been saying to the child since his registration. Happy to see someones caught on after a year.

Originally posted by By Crom!
Why is it stupid it's Marvels own opinion as to why different creations have taken place. Are you saying Marvel is stupid?

Multiple beings have experienced multiple origins of the universe actually means that the 616 reality is always in a state of flux, constantly re-writing itself as time goes on.

Marvels own words it was a big bang

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe

Thanks for highlighting that. Works for me.

equates who to being how powerful, the beyonder at the end of secret wars from what i can remeber released power that was like the multiverse time hundreds of millions of times.

Originally posted by Mr Master



Beyonder took over what would have been the "OMNIVERSE" back then, since there was ONLY the Multiverse and the Beyond Realm.

And Beyonder was ther Beyond Realm.

Not true in the slightest as you very well know.

During the pre retcon period the New Universe was made known to readers. The New Universe had nothing to do with the Beyonder.

Originally posted by h1a8
I've read Secret Wars many times as a kid. There is more than 1 multiverse, so saying "Beyond the Multiverse" is incorrect (must use plural noun unless you are referring to the Marvel Multiverse). In conjunction to that, there is no mention that he is outside the Marvel multiverse (maybe UNIVERSE) for that would be impossible due to the definition of the Marvel Multiverse.
You missing a very easy point.
By definition: The Marvel multiverse is the collection of all the universes that exist in the marvel comics. Also by definition: any universe that is shown by Marvel then it is in the Marvel Multiverse. Thus making the statement "He's Beyond the Multiverse! .. and He is EVERYTHING Beyond the Multiverse!" false.

Read it again then:


"Here we are someplace OUTSIDE Earth's Universe AND ALL the Infinite Adjacent DIMENSIONS which MAKE UP the MULTIVERSE,

in other words, BEYOND ALL KNOW EXISTENCE!

This must be the "BEYOND REALM"
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6606/beyondspacetime2pq7.th.jpg
"I AM the SUM of EVERYTHING BEYOND"


Don't bother me with this,

everyone knows Beyonder was from Beyond the Multiverse.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not true in the slightest as you very well know.

During the pre retcon period the New Universe was made known to readers. The New Universe had nothing to do with the Beyonder.

I know very well that the New Universe was introduced in publication in Nov. 1986

Secret Wars II took place in 1985.


Your point is moot.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I know very well that the New Universe was introduced in publication in Nov. 1986

Secret Wars II took place in 1985.


Your point is moot.

The Beyonder retcon as you well know took place in Fantastic Four in 1988.

Silly boy.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Beyonder retcon as you well know took place in Fantastic Four in 1988.

Silly boy.

AND?

How does this stop Beyonder from being Everything OUTSIDE the Multiverse upto Nov. 1986? (when the New Universe was introduced)

Originally posted by Mr Master
AND?

How does this stop Beyonder from being Everything OUTSIDE the Multiverse upto Nov. 1986? (when the New Universe was introduced)

You cant say that. It happened Pre retcon therefore during the pre retcon period Beyonder was NOT all there was outside the Marvel multiverse. He was JUST all we knew of outside the marvel multiverse up until the point we were told otherwise.

See the difference?

Acknowledge it.

in my opinion the brothers win.
the bros = both the marvel and dc writers and editors working together to create the most powerfull beings ever.

the beyonder = marvel writers and editors working together to create the most powerfull being ever.

i would say the 2 companys together represent more power

Brothers win, it's 2 against 1.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You cant say that. It happened Pre retcon therefore during the pre retcon period Beyonder was NOT all there was outside the Marvel multiverse. He was JUST all we knew of outside the marvel multiverse up until the point we were told otherwise.

See the difference?

Acknowledge it.

Acknowledge what?

If the New Universe was introduced in Nov. 86

and Secret Wars II took place in mid 85'


the only thing to acknowledge is that Beyonder was everything OUTSIDE the Multiverse until Nov. 86.


The New Universe wasn't just sitting there waiting to be discovered, (this isn't real life) it was CREATED for the Nov. 86 publication.

I don't care if it was imagined 20 years before Secret Wars.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Read it again then:


"Here we are someplace OUTSIDE Earth's Universe AND ALL the Infinite Adjacent DIMENSIONS which MAKE UP the MULTIVERSE,

in other words, BEYOND ALL KNOW EXISTENCE!

This must be the "BEYOND REALM"

"I AM the SUM of EVERYTHING BEYOND"


Don't bother me with this,

everyone knows Beyonder was from Beyond the Multiverse.

First of all, look who is talking in the scan. Second, the multiverse mentioned in the scan isn't the Marvel multiverse but a smaller subset (If there exists such a thing).
I reason as follows:
The definition of the Marvel Multiverse is either true or false.
But it has to be true since all definitions are true (they are not theories). And since it is true then the universe that the Beyonder is from is part of or included in the Marvel Multiverse since it is a universe shown by Marvel comics.

If not, then the assumption that the definition of the Marvel Multiverse is true is actually false. But we all know that this cannot be. Hence the Beyonder and his realm is apart of the Marvel Multiverse. It doesn't matter who says what (not even stan lee). For example, if I define the Marvel Multiverse to be the collection or set of all the universes that Marvel comics has ever shown and then say that the Beyonder's universe (a universe that marvel shows) is outside this multiverse then the second statement is wrong since both they contradict each other (making at least one false) and the first statement (the definition) is always true.

Originally posted by h1a8
First of all, look who is talking in the scan. Second, the multiverse mentioned in the scan isn't the Marvel multiverse but a smaller subset (If there exists such a thing).
I reason as follows:
The definition of the Marvel Multiverse is either true or false.
But it has to be true since all definitions are true (they are not theories). And since it is true then the universe that the Beyonder is from is part of or included in the Marvel Multiverse since it is a universe shown by Marvel comics. If not, then the assumption that the definition of the Marvel Multiverse is true is actually false. But we all know that this cannot be. Hence the Beyonder and his realm is apart of the Marvel Multiverse. It doesn't matter who says what (not even stan lee). For example, if I define the Marvel Multiverse to be the collection or set of all the universes that Marvel comics has ever shown and then say that the Beyonder's universe (a universe that marvel shows) is outside this multiverse then the second statement is wrong since both they contradict each other (making at least one false) and the first statement (the definition) is always true.

firefirefireph

I used a deductive argument. Meaning if the premises are true then the conclusion is necessarily true. But if the conclusion is false then at least one of the premises is false. So if my conclusion above is false then explain which one of my premises is false.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Acknowledge what?

If the New Universe was introduced in Nov. 86

and Secret Wars II took place in mid 85'


the only thing to acknowledge is that Beyonder was everything OUTSIDE the Multiverse until Nov. 86.


The New Universe wasn't just sitting there waiting to be discovered, (this isn't real life) it was CREATED for the Nov. 86 publication.

I don't care if it was imagined 20 years before Secret Wars.

You need to care because it matters as far as debating Pre Retcon Beyonder is concerned.

If we're debating Pre retcon Beyonder, then its Beyonder up until Fantastic Four #319 when the retcon was introduced. NOT a specific date in a specific comic that YOU want to focus on.

If you want to tailor a matchup so that Beyonder stands a better chance then by all means make your own thread stating we can only reference how Beyonder seemed in issue blah blah on date blah blah.

Otherwise acknowledge that as far as continuity is concerned, Pre retcon Beyonder was NOT all there was beyond the multiverse. He was JUST all we knew of beyond the multiverse until we were told otherwise in 1986 DURING THE PRE RETCON PERIOD.

Thats enough.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Otherwise acknowledge that as far as continuity is concerned, Pre retcon Beyonder was NOT all there was beyond the multiverse. He was JUST all we knew of beyond the multiverse until we were told otherwise in 1986 DURING THE PRE RETCON PERIOD.

Thats enough.

As far as Continuity is concerned the New Universe DID NOT Exist before Nov. 1986.


So Beyonder was everything OUSTIDE the Multiverse upto Nov. 1986.


Now,

that's enough.

I reason as follows:
The definition of the Marvel Multiverse is either true or false.
But it has to be true since all definitions are true (they are not theories). And since it is true then the universe that the Beyonder is from is part of or included in the Marvel Multiverse since it is a universe shown by Marvel comics. If not, then the assumption that the definition of the Marvel Multiverse is true is actually false. But we all know that this cannot be. Hence the Beyonder and his realm is apart of the Marvel Multiverse. It doesn't matter who says what (not even stan lee). For example, if I define the Marvel Multiverse to be the collection or set of all the universes that Marvel comics has ever shown and then say that the Beyonder's universe (a universe that marvel shows) is outside this multiverse then the second statement is wrong since both they contradict each other (making at least one false) and the first statement (the definition) is always true

Originally posted by Mr Master
As far as Continuity is concerned the New Universe DID NOT Exist before Nov. 1986.


So Beyonder was everything OUSTIDE the Multiverse upto Nov. 1986.


Now,

that's enough.

As far as Pre retcon Beyonder continuity is concerned he was never all there is outside the multiverse as were informed of the existence of the New Universe during the pre retcon period.

Thats all.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
As far as Pre retcon Beyonder continuity is concerned he was never all there is outside the multiverse as were informed of the existence of the New Universe during the pre retcon period.

Thats all.

Opinions vs On Panel evidence,

wonder who will win.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Read it again then:


"Here we are someplace OUTSIDE Earth's Universe AND ALL the Infinite Adjacent DIMENSIONS which MAKE UP the MULTIVERSE,

in other words, BEYOND ALL KNOW EXISTENCE!

This must be the "BEYOND REALM"
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6606/beyondspacetime2pq7.th.jpg
"I AM the SUM of EVERYTHING BEYOND"


This scan is from Secret Wars II in 1985.


The New Universe was NOT introduced in publication until Nov. 1986

So until Nov. 1986, this is how it was.

I think GS is talking about the entire pre-retcon Beyonder continuity as a whole, and during the reign of Beyonder (pre-ret) a new Universe was introduced.

But Mr M is saying that BEFORE 1986 Beyonder was everything outside the Multiverse.

So in a nuttshell....

Up to 1986 Beyonder was everything outside the Multiverse. After 1986, a new Universe was revealed, so Beyonder was no longer everything outside of the Multiverse............. Correct?

Both seem to be logical, I just don't think it's clear to both of you, what the other is talking about.

Either that, or you just want to argue, and in that case I'll keep my big mouth shut.

Originally posted by Galan007
I think GS is talking about the entire pre-retcon Beyonder continuity as a whole, and during the reign of Beyonder (pre-ret) a new Universe was introduced.

But Mr M is saying that BEFORE 1986 Beyonder was everything outside the Multiverse.

So in a nuttshell....

Up to 1986 Beyonder was everything outside the Multiverse. After 1986, a new Universe was revealed, so Beyonder was no longer everything outside of the Multiverse............. Correct?

The Beyonder's reign ended when he became an Infinite Universe at the end of Secret Wars II, March 1986.


The New Universe was introduced into publication in November 1986.


But we NEVER heard from the Beyonder again until October 1988, where he was retconned.


So between May 1984 and Mar. 1986, Beyonder was everything Outside the Multiverse, On Panel.

This continued (Off Panel) until later on that year in Nov. 1986, when the New Universe officially became another Universe Outside of the Multiverse.

Jst to mentioned something to support the brothers, it has been stated that before they split assunder they where everything ying and yang god and bad and so on, will you mr master say that the beyonder is beyond this ??? because there can be on beyond. He doesn't exist

Originally posted by Utrigita
Jst to mentioned something to support the brothers, it has been stated that before they split assunder they where everything ying and yang god and bad and so on,

They were everything, and so was the Infinity Being, so take your pick on who truly was the "Ying and Yang"

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/5920/ig3cz9.th.jpg

http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/5036/ig1hw6.th.jpg

It was ALL THAT WAS, and all that was....... was it.

No one would fault you if you were to call it GOD. What other name would fit?:
http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/9675/ig4ix6.th.jpg
(Galan thanx for the scans)


The only difference is,

that Marvel vs DC (where the Brothers were everything) was NEVER Canon.

And this issue with the Infinity Being IS Canon.

For the purposes of this thread we are using the Brothers

Originally posted by Mr Master
They were everything, and so was the Infinity Being, so take your pick on who truly was the "Ying and Yang"

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/5920/ig3cz9.th.jpg

http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/5036/ig1hw6.th.jpg

It was ALL THAT WAS, and all that was....... was it.

No one would fault you if you were to call it GOD. What other name would fit?:
http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/9675/ig4ix6.th.jpg
(Galan thanx for the scans)


The only difference is,

that Marvel vs DC (where the Brothers were everything) was NEVER Canon.

And this issue with the Infinity Being IS Canon.

OH you mean like the secret wars II, that with beyonder that was a controversial character amongst creators. Creators felt that Jim Shooter had abused his role as editor-in-chief, and forced the use of the omnipotent character upon other writers and editors. Some critics felt the crossovers didn't always mesh well with the main book. One of the most vocal critics was John Byrne. where beyonder is unstoppable MM reparering the multiverse, and beyonder being beyond Marvels multiverse isn't canon I get your point.

AND if i may correct you again from what i have learned, the brothers was believed/supposed to be TOAA and the Presence but this was droppede, and don't come here saying that beyonder can beat THOSE TWO POWERHOUSES

Originally posted by Utrigita
OH you mean like the secret wars II, that with beyonder that was a controversial character amongst creators. Creators felt that Jim Shooter had abused his role as editor-in-chief, and forced the use of the omnipotent character upon other writers and editors. Some critics felt the crossovers didn't always mesh well with the main book. One of the most vocal critics was John Byrne. where beyonder is unstoppable MM reparering the multiverse, and beyonder being beyond Marvels multiverse isn't canon I get your point.

always thought beyonder was a contro character

always brings about a ret con

Originally posted by h1a8
I've read Secret Wars many times as a kid. There is more than 1 multiverse, so saying "Beyond the Multiverse" is incorrect (must use plural noun unless you are referring to the Marvel Multiverse). In conjunction to that, there is no mention that he is outside the Marvel multiverse (maybe UNIVERSE) for that would be impossible due to the definition of the Marvel Multiverse.
You missing a very easy point.
By definition: The Marvel multiverse is the collection of all the universes that exist in the marvel comics. Also by definition: any universe that is shown by Marvel then it is in the Marvel Multiverse. Thus making the statement "He's Beyond the Multiverse! .. and He is EVERYTHING Beyond the Multiverse!" false.

All true

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thanks for highlighting that. Works for me.

Proof your comprehension skills are far greater than MMs bless him

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Brothers win, it's 2 against 1.

True

Originally posted by h1a8
First of all, look who is talking in the scan. Second, the multiverse mentioned in the scan isn't the Marvel multiverse but a smaller subset (If there exists such a thing).
I reason as follows:
The definition of the Marvel Multiverse is either true or false.
But it has to be true since all definitions are true (they are not theories). And since it is true then the universe that the Beyonder is from is part of or included in the Marvel Multiverse since it is a universe shown by Marvel comics.

If not, then the assumption that the definition of the Marvel Multiverse is true is actually false. But we all know that this cannot be. Hence the Beyonder and his realm is apart of the Marvel Multiverse. It doesn't matter who says what (not even stan lee). For example, if I define the Marvel Multiverse to be the collection or set of all the universes that Marvel comics has ever shown and then say that the Beyonder's universe (a universe that marvel shows) is outside this multiverse then the second statement is wrong since both they contradict each other (making at least one false) and the first statement (the definition) is always true.

true

Originally posted by h1a8
I used a deductive argument. Meaning if the premises are true then the conclusion is necessarily true. But if the conclusion is false then at least one of the premises is false. So if my conclusion above is false then explain which one of my premises is false.

I tried similar logic on Masters yesterday and was called an idiot, I don't think he understands what you are explaining.

Damn that Mr Masters took a hell of a beating.

Originally posted by h1a8
I reason as follows:
The definition of the Marvel Multiverse is either true or false.
But it has to be true since all definitions are true (they are not theories). And since it is true then the universe that the Beyonder is from is part of or included in the Marvel Multiverse since it is a universe shown by Marvel comics. If not, then the assumption that the definition of the Marvel Multiverse is true is actually false. But we all know that this cannot be. Hence the Beyonder and his realm is apart of the Marvel Multiverse. It doesn't matter who says what (not even stan lee). For example, if I define the Marvel Multiverse to be the collection or set of all the universes that Marvel comics has ever shown and then say that the Beyonder's universe (a universe that marvel shows) is outside this multiverse then the second statement is wrong since both they contradict each other (making at least one false) and the first statement (the definition) is always true

I think you finding out the limitations of the human language to describe things that transcend existence. You sound like a young David Hume.

Originally posted by Utrigita
OH you mean like the secret wars II, that with beyonder that was a controversial character amongst creators. Creators felt that Jim Shooter had abused his role as editor-in-chief, and forced the use of the omnipotent character upon other writers and editors. Some critics felt the crossovers didn't always mesh well with the main book. One of the most vocal critics was John Byrne. where beyonder is unstoppable MM reparering the multiverse,


Originally posted by Mr Master Read it again:


"Here we are someplace OUTSIDE Earth's Universe AND ALL the Infinite Adjacent DIMENSIONS which MAKE UP the MULTIVERSE,

in other words, Beyond ALL Known Existence

This must be the "BEYOND REALM"
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6606/beyondspacetime2pq7.th.jpg
"I AM the SUM of EVERYTHING BEYOND"


dontgetit


Originally posted by Utrigita
and beyonder being beyond Marvels multiverse isn't canon I get your point.

Apparently you did not get my point cause I never said that.

But don't mind me, continue to make stuff up while you're at it.



thanx...

Originally posted by Mr Master dontgetit




Apparently you did not get my point cause I never said that.

But don't mind me, continue to make stuff up while your at it.

It's you're......

Where to begin?

Originally posted by Mr Master
dontgetit


Apparently you did not get my point cause I never said that.

But don't mind me, continue to make stuff up while you're at it.



thanx...

No problem, thank you for thanking me, as I noticed in your edit you have corrected your basic error in grammar. Should you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me. Either on the board or through p.m. Anything, comprehension, grammar, comic interpretation as per the major companies, common sense, you name it I can help you.

Originally posted by By Crom!
Proof your comprehension skills are far greater than MMs bless him

I tried similar logic on Masters yesterday and was called an idiot, I don't think he understands what you are explaining.

You're a LIAR, I never called you an idiot, though you were SO wrong.
(you made a thread specifically aimed at me and another, thinking you had a valid point)


"Comprehension skills" my ass,


Dude, your trying to compare Genesis Manipulating with "Magic" or whatever a Big Bang event,

to Entropy (an Abstract EXERCISING his FUNCTION) to NATURALLY cause a Big Bang after the Universe/Eternity has Imploded into Entropy itself.

This is the Universal Law,


When Eternity the Universe has reached the end of a Cycle of Existence, Entropy comes into the picture and does just that. (Ends it)
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2430/en21be.th.jpg


And here we can see Eternity the 616 Universe had reached this point:


Eternity said, "AT LAST" before he was destroyed by them.


"the Universe was living on BORROWED Time"
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/5695/g16jb.th.jpg
"Eternity didn't want to keep going"


This is why Entropy and Genis were able to Kill Eternity so effortlessly, it was the Universes Time to go, in order to be Born Anew (Natural Big Bang)

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/5831/g24kc.th.jpg
"the Cosmos was already in its death throes"



The Universe became Entropy, (as it's suppose to)

Then Entropy initiated a Natural Big Bang,

Then Entropy becomes the New Universe/Eternity.


Originally posted by By Crom!
Damn that Mr Masters took a hell of a beating.

Had you known the difference between a Natural Big Bang and the one that many others can artificially produce,

you'd be singing another song.

Marvel didn't list ALL the cats that have Remade a Universe in your little link, I could add to that list

but my point wasn't about that, I was focusing on a NATURAL Big Bang.

Originally posted by By Crom!
Should you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me. Either on the board or through p.m. Anything, comprehension, grammar,

Perhaps.


Originally posted by By Crom!
comic interpretation as per the major companies, common sense, you name it I can help you.

Believe me when I say, your the last fella I'll be coming to for Comic interpretation,


Originally posted by By Crom!
I can help you.

ehwtf

Originally posted by Mr Master
Perhaps.




Believe me when I say, your the last fella I'll be coming to for Comic interpretation,

sorry but from what I've seen, ehwtf

shsssh pssst it's still "you're", as in "you are".

That's O.K. I understand you don't get what's going on much. No Problem.

You need to read a few real comics, maybe? Not just illegal downloads.
I suggest Watchmen
Miracleman
Moores run on Swampthing
Ex Machina
Slaine
Grendel
Bone
Y
Shandor
Fables
Starman
The Nazz
Esoterica
Sandman
Moores Supreme
Tom Strong

etc.



Stop reading the McDonalds of comics and read something decent. Then your understanding will improve.

Originally posted by By Crom!
shsssh pssst it's still "you're", as in "you are".

What's all this?

There's no point in taking you serious even for a moment ey?


Originally posted by By Crom!
That's O.K. I understand you don't get what's going on much. No Problem.

See what I'm saying, what's the point of this?

Are you really such a Dick?


I try and reply to your post (which included insults) and you return with more insults and NOTHING of consequence.

Originally posted by By Crom!
You need to read a few real comics maybe. Not just illegal downloads.
I suggest Watchmen

"illegal downloads?" dontgetit

And I read Watchmen and I have it in my collection but,

what does this have to do with anything?


Originally posted by By Crom!
Stop reading the McDonalds of comics and read something decent. Then your understanding will improve.

stfu2


I had enough of you.

Love this ignore button, now post whatever wish. swank

Originally posted by Mr Master
What's all this?

There's no point in taking you serious even for a moment ey?




See what I'm saying, what's the point of this?

Are you really such a Dick?


I try and reply to your post (which included insults) and you return with more insults and NOTHING of consequence.



"illegal downloads?" dontgetit

And I read Watchmen and I have it in my collection but,

what does this have to do with anything?




stfu2


I had enough of you.

Love this ignore button, now post whatever wish. swank


Ahh, the old ignore button


Bye

I imagine MM stamping his feet and bursting out crying as he types "I have had enough of you!".

By Crom! 1 Mr Masters 0

Since they're both retconned, they're both non canon.

Each of the Brothers' represented a truley omnipotent being, a being of the highest scale of infinity, the supreme being in all of Marvel and DC. -- Which are currently the supreme beings of each companies?
The One-Above-All and "Unknown Forces"/Presence?

Beyonder was limited all the time, million of times all the powers of the mutliverse combinded? -- If he was truley infinite, wouldent it be infinity times all the power of all the power in the multiverse combinded?
A drop in the ocean and so forth -- Discribed with limitations.

He even had trouble with Molecule man, lost a great deal of his power when removing the concept of Death.

Now the (Pre-retcon) Brothers who would be infinity times all other powers in their multiverse combided, would have no trouble defeating anyone or anything, the eradication of the concept of Death would be a thought away from them.

They could do anything without any trouble at all, the Living Tribunal and the Spectre was beneath their notecing.

The only reason they stalemated eachother was to prove that Marvel and DC was equal in both authority and power.

And I am porbably the biggest Beyonder fan in existance.

Pre-retcon Brothers = Supreme being of Marvel (TOAA) + Supreme being of DC (UF/Presence) > TOAA = UF/Presence > Pre-retcon Beyonder

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Since they're both retconned, they're both non canon.

Each of the Brothers' represented a truley omnipotent being, a being of the highest scale of infinity, the supreme being in all of Marvel and DC. -- Which are currently the supreme beings of each companies?
The One-Above-All and "Unknown Forces"/Presence?

Beyonder was limited all the time, million of times all the powers of the mutliverse combinded? -- If he was truley infinite, wouldent it be infinity times all the power of all the power in the multiverse combinded?
A drop in the ocean and so forth -- Discribed with limitations.

He even had trouble with Molecule man, lost a great deal of his power when removing the concept of Death.

Now the (Pre-retcon) Brothers who would be infinity times all other powers in their multiverse combided, would have no trouble defeating anyone or anything, the eradication of the concept of Death would be a thought away from them.

They could do anything without any trouble at all, the Living Tribunal and the Spectre was beneath their notecing.

The only reason they stalemated eachother was to prove that Marvel and DC was equal in both authority and power.

And I am porbably the biggest Beyonder fan in existance.

Pre-retcon Brothers = Supreme being of Marvel (TOAA) + Supreme being of DC (UF/Presence) > TOAA = UF/Presence > Pre-retcon Beyonder

Good Post, All true

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Since they're both retconned, they're both non canon.

Each of the Brothers' represented a truley omnipotent being, a being of the highest scale of infinity, the supreme being in all of Marvel and DC. -- Which are currently the supreme beings of each companies?
The One-Above-All and "Unknown Forces"/Presence?

Beyonder was limited all the time, million of times all the powers of the mutliverse combinded? -- If he was truley infinite, wouldent it be infinity times all the power of all the power in the multiverse combinded?
A drop in the ocean and so forth -- Discribed with limitations.

He even had trouble with Molecule man, lost a great deal of his power when removing the concept of Death.


This highlights the problem, of diffrenet levels of Infinity !

Originally posted by General Mess
This highlights the problem, of diffrenet levels of Infinity !

Agreed lol

Originally posted by General Mess
This highlights the problem, of diffrenet levels of Infinity !
Brother #1: Infinity Infinity-level of Marvel
Brother #2: Infinity Infinity-level of DC

There's nothing beyond it.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Brother #1: Infinity Infinity-level of Marvel
Brother #2: Infinity Infinity-level of DC

There's nothing beyond it.

Except Reality and the Readers Universe

Originally posted by Mr Master
dontgetit




Apparently you did not get my point cause I never said that.

But don't mind me, continue to make stuff up while you're at it.



thanx...

If I have missed your point would be as kind af to explain to my why you have then used to much time, explaining to ours all that beyonder is outside the multiverse greated by the brothers. Now we are using pre so explain it to my because you are going against your own arguments read them again

Originally posted by Utrigita
If I have missed your point would be as kind af to explain to my why you have then used to much time, explaining to ours all that beyonder is outside the multiverse greated by the brothers. Now we are using pre so explain it to my because you are going against your own arguments read them again

He is indeed

By Crom!

Originally posted by By Crom!
Except Reality and the Readers Universe

I agree totally with you

Sometimes Crom Mr M will not agree that he is wrong but you did great

Originally posted by Utrigita
If I have missed your point would be as kind af to explain to my why you have then used to much time, explaining to ours all that beyonder is outside the multiverse greated by the brothers. Now we are using pre so explain it to my because you are going against your own arguments read them again


Originally posted by Mr Master
Read it again then:


"Here we are someplace OUTSIDE Earth's Universe AND ALL the Infinite Adjacent DIMENSIONS which MAKE UP the MULTIVERSE,

in other words, BEYOND ALL KNOW EXISTENCE!

This must be the "BEYOND REALM"
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6606/beyondspacetime2pq7.th.jpg
"I AM the SUM of EVERYTHING BEYOND"


Don't bother me with this,

everyone knows Beyonder was from Beyond the Multiverse.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Sometimes Crom Mr M will not agree that he is wrong but

And you would know since you joined only Two Weeks ago.


Originally posted by Utrigita
you did great

Yes, he Dis-agrees with anything I post regardless.

That is, doing great.

I'm fascinated by all the information he has supplied us with, and his debating skills?

Off the chart.

"yes he is"

"he is wrong"

"he doesn't understand"

"you lack comprehension"

"no he's not"


hysterical2

Originally posted by Utrigita
Sometimes Crom Mr M will not agree that he is wrong but you did great



Thank you my friend

Originally posted by Utrigita
Sometimes Crom Mr M will not agree that he is wrong but you did great



if we use post ret con no one is above living tribunal save the one above all

Originally posted by Mr Master


By continuing showing me this post, your are refusing to answer my question again. Again I will tell what bothers me.

""I AM the SUM of EVERYTHING BEYOND"


Don't bother me with this,

everyone knows Beyonder was from Beyond the Multiverse. "

Your own words from these words I read that beyonder is infact beyond the Marvel Universe and DC according to these but that isn't possible since The brothers was the sume of EVERYTHING, now you are saying that you have never said anything about beyonder being beyond the marvel but with you continuing to post the exact same scan then i am sure i am right, And if I may say again the Brothers was meant to be TOAA and The Presence from the Marvel and DC. You say these isn't canon but nowhere have i found anything that implicates that Secret Wars II was meant to be canon, I have explain to you why it was writtend, and why marvel decided to change the universe.

Just my analyse of you words i have so far no reason to belive otherwise.

Oh and do you know how longe I have been reading these posts before I joined if you don't, quit saying that I don't know anything about you.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Your own words from these words I read that beyonder is infact beyond the Marvel Universe and DC according to these but that isn't possible since The brothers was the sume of EVERYTHING,

No it is NOT impossible,

Beyonder was everything outside the Multiverse between May 1984 and Nov. 1986.


the Brothers did NOT Exist until the 1997 publication, of DC vs Marvel.


A couple of Months later in 1997 Adventures of the X-Men came out, and your Brothers went from the TOAA and the Presence, to TWO Megaverses in the Living Tribunal's hand, to do with as he wished.
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/9741/ltrules2lu3.th.jpg
"Two SIBLINGS whom the Tribunal has a place for in his great scheme of things"


Originally posted by Utrigita
now you are saying that you have never said anything about beyonder being beyond the marvel but with you continuing to post the exact same scan then i am sure i am right,

Why would I say Beyonder is not from beyond the Multiverse, if I been arguing that he is for the longest?

Where did you see me say that?


Originally posted by Utrigita
And if I may say again the Brothers was meant to be TOAA and The Presence from the Marvel and DC. You say these isn't canon

That's nice.

The Brothers were published WAY after the Beyonder had been Retconned.

So what's your point friend?


And it's still NOT Canon.

Dude, those issues were voted on by FANS to determine the winners.



Originally posted by Utrigita
but nowhere have i found anything that implicates that Secret Wars II was meant to be canon, I have explain to you why it was writtend, and why marvel decided to change the universe.

Secret Wars was not Canon.

Interesting, yet it's mentioned all over the 2006 Bios.



Where do you think Spiderman's Black suit came from?

Which lead to Venom and Carnage.

Black costumed Spider Woman?

Titania?

Volcana?

First time we see Ben Grimm after becoming the Thing.

Molecule Man learns he can control Organic Molecules.


Pre-retcon Beyonder erased Death from the Multiverse, and it was counted as a POST-Retcon FEAT and it's CANON.

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8712/d1ve2.th.jpg

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4596/d2jb9.th.jpg

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7426/d3qm1.th.jpg


Death is ERASED across The Entire Multiverse

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/6859/beyonderkillsdeath3tq0.th.jpg

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2465/beyondernodeathjo1.th.jpg

excerpt from Official Hanbook of the Marvelk Universe v5 (2006)
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/7366/dbioge1.th.jpg


So much for Secret Wars not being Canon.

Evidently Secret Wars IS very much CANON.

Originally posted by Mr Master
No it is NOT impossible,

Beyonder was everything outside the Multiverse between May 1984 and Nov. 1986.


the Brothers did NOT Exist until the 1997 publication, of DC vs Marvel.


A couple of Months later in 1997 Adventures of the X-Men came out, and your Brothers went from the TOAA and the Presence, to TWO Megaverses in the Living Tribunal's hand, to do with as he wished.
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/9741/ltrules2lu3.th.jpg
"Two SIBLINGS whom the Tribunal has a place for in his great scheme of things"This scan was from after the Brothers were "retconned"...

For the purposes of this thread, that scan doesn't mean much.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Evidently Secret Wars IS very much CANON. It has to be canon, otherwise how could Marvel have kept Spidey's symbiote suit for all this time?

Originally posted by Mr Master
So much for Secret Wars not being Canon.

Evidently Secret Wars IS very much CANON.

Of course Secret Wars is canon. edited for lack of cruelty. However parts of it have been retconned. This alludes to the state of flux the Marvel Universe is in according to Marvel.

Originally posted by Galan007
This scan was from after the Brothers were "retconned"...

Yes I WROTE that around the Scan.

I didn't write how long the Brothers lasted before they were Retconned, 4 Months.

Originally posted by Galan007
For the purposes of this thread, that scan doesn't mean much.

I'm having a conversation with that dude, and this scan is very meaningful.

Read what I wrote around the scan buddy.


Originally posted by Galan007
It has to be canon, otherwise how could Marvel have kept Spidey's symbiote suit for all this time?

Originally posted by Mr Master
I'm having a conversation with that dude, and this scan is very meaningful.

Read what I wrote around the scan buddy. Your argument is with him not me, there's no need to get hostile....................... buddy.

I just didn't want anyone to misconstrue that scan, and get the false idea the LT>The Brothers (pre-ret).

Originally posted by Galan007
Your argument is with him not me, there's no need to get hostile....................... buddy.

I just didn't want anyone to misconstrue that scan, and get the false idea the LT>The Brothers (pre-ret).

Well if they Read instead of just entertain their eyes with pretty visuals, they'll know.


On the other hand, they probably have no idea what we're saying now

(waiting for those pretty little pictures)

Originally posted by Mr Master
Well if they Read instead of just entertain their eyes with pretty visuals, they'll know.


On the other hand, they probably have no idea what we're saying now

(waiting for those pretty little pictures)

why is this thread still going beyonder would win.

Originally posted by Mider999
why is this thread still going beyonder would win.

which beyonder

Wasn't the pre-retcon Beyonder basically an avatar for the writers? If so, the Bros stand no chance.