Gorgon vs. Gamora

jinzin

oops didn't see that....

hmm without tp it's very hard to say but I'll STILL take gorgon simply based on his irregular healing factor....

wolverine described that he and shield had hit gorgon with everything they had, LCD rockets, flamethrowers, chainsaws, machine guns, teh!1! claws!...nothing was working on the guy, he didn't register damage inflicted on him whatsoever.. which tells me that gamora's pressure points and nerve strikes are practically useless in this fight... She seems to really be limited in what she can actually do to gorgon.... and the guys no slouch without his TP he trained blindfolded, blocked automatic gunfire, and proved himself faster than elektra AND wolverine by comparison.... he also broke a sword to peices with his TEETH.....

gamora would have to fight flawlessly to win this fight, and I don't think that's going to happen, I can't even fathom how she would plan to take him down in the first place.

darthgoober

Does Gamora have the "Godslayer"?

SpunkySmurph

Originally posted by jinzin
oops didn't see that....

hmm without tp it's very hard to say but I'll STILL take gorgon simply based on his irregular healing factor....

wolverine described that he and shield had hit gorgon with everything they had, LCD rockets, flamethrowers, chainsaws, machine guns, teh!1! claws!...nothing was working on the guy, he didn't register damage inflicted on him whatsoever.. which tells me that gamora's pressure points and nerve strikes are practically useless in this fight... She seems to really be limited in what she can actually do to gorgon.... and the guys no slouch without his TP he trained blindfolded, blocked automatic gunfire, and proved himself faster than elektra AND wolverine by comparison.... he also broke a sword to peices with his TEETH.....

gamora would have to fight flawlessly to win this fight, and I don't think that's going to happen, I can't even fathom how she would plan to take him down in the first place.

Gamora also has a quite powerful healing factor. I'll see if I can find the scan in a minute.

A healing factor does not negate pressure points- most pressure points work on the concept of either striking area prone to automatic reflex, or tricking the body. For example,

"The baroreceptor in the carotid artery is pressure-sensitive, allowing the body to control the bloodflow into the brain. Pressure against this region will 'trick' the body into thinking that blood pressure is too high, and thus will constrict and lower blood pressure - which can cause blackout."

That's one specific example of tricking the body. As you can see, a healing factor would, if anything, work against someone if this were to happen.

And Gamora DOES fight flawlessly. She's more then likley the best MA in the Marvel universe. Between her skill and her speed/strength, I'm willing to bet she can take the majority.

Theres still the matter of the match WITH telepathy as well...

SpunkySmurph

Originally posted by darthgoober
Does Gamora have the "Godslayer"?

No. That wouldn't be fair. erm

bigbran

jinzin

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Gamora also has a quite powerful healing factor. I'll see if I can find the scan in a minute.

A healing factor does not negate pressure points- most pressure points work on the concept of either striking area prone to automatic reflex, or tricking the body. For example,

"The baroreceptor in the carotid artery is pressure-sensitive, allowing the body to control the bloodflow into the brain. Pressure against this region will 'trick' the body into thinking that blood pressure is too high, and thus will constrict and lower blood pressure - which can cause blackout."

That's one specific example of tricking the body. As you can see, a healing factor would, if anything, work against someone if this were to happen.

And Gamora DOES fight flawlessly. She's more then likley the best MA in the Marvel universe. Between her skill and her speed/strength, I'm willing to bet she can take the majority.

Theres still the matter of the match WITH telepathy as well...

does has gamera been induced with a healing factor that will help her in this fight though?
wolverine put her down with one stab... she was out for a good long while... has she been inhanced in this area?

I'm not sure if I buy that having a hf works against you when dealing with pressure points, especially considering the evidence that bodes against it, in any case it's not just gorgon's HF that was at play there.. you didn't read more carefully but.. he didn't REGISTER pain either....
being one of the undead as it's advantages i suppose but he wasn't at all damaged nor did he react to pain.. THAT's why I say gamera's pressure points will do jack against him.

She fights flawlessly against big bricks with nowhere near as good a fighting ability, but that doesn't really mean a thing to me, all street levelers and their grandma's do that too...

all she needs to make is ONE mistake and gorgon takes her, and that's without his advantages that were stripped of him.

jinzin

Originally posted by bigbran
So, in other words... he is tougher than Ronin?

depends on what we're talking about....

but yes, i think it's safe to say that u.s. agent would probably fail to KO gorgon with a hit to the head....
what about ronin? wink

capt it up

first off that pressure point garbage makes no senses.

first how do people think normal people fix pressure point damage? the body fix'es it. If the body did not fix it then the person would remain KO or dead. So if the person has a healing factor that dmaage is beign repair are an extreme rate.

darthgoober

Originally posted by jinzin
does has gamera been induced with a healing factor that will help her in this fight though?
wolverine put her down with one stab... she was out for a good long while... has she been inhanced in this area?
Her healing factor is right on par with Wolverine's(by his own admission), and she got up right after he did after taking a shot to the head from US Agent. So which is harder to heal form, a cheapshot to the head with a blunt object from US Agent, or a cheapshot from Wolverine's claws to the stomach?

Originally posted by jinzin
I'm not sure if I buy that having a hf works against you when dealing with pressure points, especially considering the evidence that bodes against it, in any case it's not just gorgon's HF that was at play there.. you didn't read more carefully but.. he didn't REGISTER pain either....
being one of the undead as it's advantages i suppose but he wasn't at all damaged nor did he react to pain.. THAT's why I say gamera's pressure points will do jack against him.
She's still got super strength of her own, and superior skills to him.

Originally posted by jinzin
She fights flawlessly against big bricks with nowhere near as good a fighting ability, but that doesn't really mean a thing to me, all street levelers and their grandma's do that too...
Actually, I'm pretty sure that Maxam was supposed to be a pretty skilled fighter, and she was able to hang with him just fine.

Originally posted by jinzin
all she needs to make is ONE mistake and gorgon takes her, and that's without his advantages that were stripped of him.
Not unless you want to say that Wolverine would go down after making one mistake, since their healing factors are comparable.

bigbran

Originally posted by jinzin
depends on what we're talking about....

but yes, i think it's safe to say that u.s. agent would probably fail to KO gorgon with a hit to the head....
what about ronin? wink

Ronin... the same guy who fought Thor, and Surfer, pawned the hell out of Ravenous... Ronin would KILL Gorgon with a hit to the head.

SpunkySmurph

Originally posted by jinzin
does has gamera been induced with a healing factor that will help her in this fight though?
wolverine put her down with one stab... she was out for a good long while... has she been inhanced in this area?

I'm not sure if I buy that having a hf works against you when dealing with pressure points, especially considering the evidence that bodes against it, in any case it's not just gorgon's HF that was at play there.. you didn't read more carefully but.. he didn't REGISTER pain either....
being one of the undead as it's advantages i suppose but he wasn't at all damaged nor did he react to pain.. THAT's why I say gamera's pressure points will do jack against him.

She fights flawlessly against big bricks with nowhere near as good a fighting ability, but that doesn't really mean a thing to me, all street levelers and their grandma's do that too...

all she needs to make is ONE mistake and gorgon takes her, and that's without his advantages that were stripped of him.

First, let's get this out of the way- it's Gamora. Not Gamera. wink

Secondly, Gamora healed from that wound from Wolverine. And she was distracted and he took a cheap shot. And that was Gamora before her upgrade.

I didn't say anything about it causing pain, and I said the hf MIGHT work against you. Regardless, hf or no, your body still works against you. It doesn't utilize pain- it utilizes your body's ability to recognize blood pressure levels and compensate. And his body HAS to be able to do that, judging by the fact that if it couldn't, his hf would be fairly useless. Makes sense, no?

She's mastered 83% of the forms of MA in the universe... I doubt her fighting is anything but 'flawless'

And, with her huge strength, speed and skill categories, Gorgon really only has to make one mistake as well... and which do you think will come first?

jinzin

Originally posted by bigbran
Ronin... the same guy who fought Thor, and Surfer, pawned the hell out of Ravenous... Ronin would KILL Gorgon with a hit to the head.

but we're not talking about ronin hitting gorgon in the head... you asked me if he was tougher.. honeslty I think gorgon does have advantages and strengths that ronin lacks... why you had to turn that into "well if ronin hit him in the head" is beyond me.

bigbran

Originally posted by jinzin
but we're not talking about ronin hitting gorgon in the head... you asked me if he was tougher.. honeslty I think gorgon does have advantages and strengths that ronin lacks... why you had to turn that into "well if ronin hit him in the head" is beyond me. So, you were either talking about USA Agent KOing Ronin (wait did he do this?), or Ronin KOing Gorgon.
Not the clearest thing you gave me to work with, and I picked the latter, in which you weren't talking about.

But, Ronin is by far more durible than Gorgon, to say the least.

jinzin

Originally posted by darthgoober
Her healing factor is right on par with Wolverine's(by his own admission), and she got up right after he did after taking a shot to the head from US Agent. So which is harder to heal form, a cheapshot to the head with a blunt object from US Agent, or a cheapshot from Wolverine's claws to the stomach?

you think she can heal from being incinerated then? behead? burnt to a skeleton?

What the f**k?

also... wolverine didn't JUST take a hit to the back of the head.. he took loads of punishment earlier from wonderman, even a little bit from wild child earlier in the day... so don't just pretend that a head shot was all logan took...

Originally posted by darthgoober
She's still got super strength of her own, and superior skills to him.

superstrength's useless to someone who doesn't feel it, and skills are debateable.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Actually, I'm pretty sure that Maxam was supposed to be a pretty skilled fighter, and she was able to hang with him just fine.

so if maxim was a human in stats you think he could take it to cap? What the f**k?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Not unless you want to say that Wolverine would go down after making one mistake, since their healing factors are comparable.

again.. you think she's about to recover from what i stated above?

SpunkySmurph

Originally posted by jinzin
you think she can heal from being incinerated then? behead? burnt to a skeleton?

What the f**k?

When alot of that happens to Wolverine, he actually dies. You should know that Jinzin... his soul just returns to his body.

jinzin

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
First, let's get this out of the way- it's Gamora. Not Gamera. wink

Secondly, Gamora healed from that wound from Wolverine. And she was distracted and he took a cheap shot. And that was Gamora before her upgrade.

first part- okay.. sorry.

second- i don't care if she healed.. that's not the point.. the point was that one stab took her down... even if it was a cheap shot it was one stab to the gut... (well 3 i guess if you wanna get technical)... if she's effected that much then that's all gorgon would need to make an opening an unleash an arsenal of pain upon her.

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
I didn't say anything about it causing pain, and I said the hf MIGHT work against you. Regardless, hf or no, your body still works against you. It doesn't utilize pain- it utilizes your body's ability to recognize blood pressure levels and compensate. And his body HAS to be able to do that, judging by the fact that if it couldn't, his hf would be fairly useless. Makes sense, no?

I didn't say you did but you're talking about how things are registered upon the body... nothing registered on gorgon... nothin..., what i was doing was reclarifying myself.

no it's illogical to say his body has to be able to do that, he's undead.. he has an hf, but he's also induced with mysticism, you can't place any further logic upon his powers. erm

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
She's mastered 83% of the forms of MA in the universe... I doubt her fighting is anything but 'flawless'

shang chi fought multiple gaurdians who knew eevery martial art on earth, he beat them all without effort...

it's all contingent on how good you are, and if your opponent is better well...

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
And, with her huge strength, speed and skill categories, Gorgon really only has to make one mistake as well... and which do you think will come first? super strength only works against people who can feel it, or whom it will effect.. her speed is better? how so? logan stalemated her in combat.. couldn't do that to gorgon even with prep and help.... and skill again? just because she knows more styles doesn't make her better strictly speaking..

jinzin

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
When alot of that happens to Wolverine, he actually dies. You should know that Jinzin... his soul just returns to his body.

and his HF regenerates him...

stop acting like regeneration doesn't take place after such...

so was that a consession then?

darthgoober

Originally posted by jinzin
you think she can heal from being incinerated then? behead? burnt to a skeleton?

What the f**k?

also... wolverine didn't JUST take a hit to the back of the head.. he took loads of punishment earlier from wonderman, even a little bit from wild child earlier in the day... so don't just pretend that a head shot was all logan took...
No I don't think she can survive all of that. However, neither can Wolverine. When he sustains that much damage, he dies(he just comes back to life). And with Wolverine's healing factor, his condition should have been fine by the time they fought(at least, he should have been if his healing factor is as strong as you all make out). You also have to remember, the assessment of her healing factor came from Wolverine himself, and I think he's a reliable source as to whether or not they'd be on the same level.

Originally posted by jinzin
superstrength's useless to someone who doesn't feel it, and skills are debateable.
BS. Just because someone doesn't realize that they're injured, doesn't negate the injury. People on PCP or enough cocain have taken things like gunshot's without registering it, that doesn't mean that they didn't die afterwards.

And as for their skill being debatable, the last time I checked the Gorgon didn't know armed and unarmed techniques 83.4% of known space faring cultures, Gamora does.

Originally posted by jinzin
so if maxim was a human in stats you think he could take it to cap? What the f**k?

I'm not actually sure how skilled he is(though I know it's not in Cap's league), but I I know that he DOES have skill. I was just pointing out that her all of her good showings weren't against unskilled bricks like Drax.

Originally posted by jinzin
again.. you think she's about to recover from what i stated above?
No, and I know for a fact that Wolverine wouldn't recover from them without dieing first.

SpunkySmurph

Originally posted by jinzin
and his HF regenerates him...

stop acting like regeneration doesn't take place after such...

so was that a consession then?

Regardless of coming back to life, Wolverine still dies in between. Which is enough for a win on these forums... don't try and downplay Gamora's HF just because Wolverine is too much of a cash cow for Marvel for him to suffer through a legitimate death erm

jinzin

Originally posted by darthgoober
BS. Just because someone doesn't realize that they're injured, doesn't negate the injury. People on PCP or enough cocain have taken things like gunshot's without registering it, that doesn't mean that they didn't die afterwards.

And as for their skill being debatable, the last time I checked the Gorgon didn't know armed and unarmed techniques 83.4% of known space faring cultures, Gamora does.

I'm not actually sure how skilled he is(though I know it's not in Cap's league), but I I know that he DOES have skill. I was just pointing out that her all of her good showings weren't against unskilled bricks like Drax.

No, and I know for a fact that Wolverine wouldn't recover from them without dieing first.

I didn't ask what she can survive. i asked what you think she can heal..

wolverine may die but he HEALS back from it anyway.. even when burnt to crisp he HEALS back to normal...
considering that you think he can't survive then I'll take that as a conssession.. her HF isn't on wolverine's level.. nuff said.

wolverine's statment was made over a decade ago, before wolverine's admantium was ripped out of his body allowing his mutation to PROGRESS, and his regneration to become more powerful... it has little value to comparison of wolverine today... gorgon took it to wolvie and pushed him to his limit not 2 years ago, which is of MUCH more merit.. so that's that.

it's not BS though, he was shot in the face with a rocket, he had things done to him that would leave any living person crippled or pulp on the floor, he's not a living person... she can't register damage on him... sorry.

again it's not quantity of skill that counts but quality.. shang chi proved this, batman's proven this, cap has proven this.... no expression

Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm not actually sure how skilled he is(though I know it's not in Cap's league),

exactly.. then it doesn't matter.

srankmissingnin

Nothing that happened to Gorgon even gave him pause... nothing even slowed him down. He was a beast, and for all purposes pretty much impervious to harm. Out side of dues ex-machina there is nothing that can stop him. He would kick Gamora's ass.

jinzin

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Regardless of coming back to life, Wolverine still dies in between. Which is enough for a win on these forums... don't try and downplay Gamora's HF just because Wolverine is too much of a cash cow for Marvel for him to suffer through a legitimate death erm

I'm not discarding anything..

nor am I arguing whether wolverine would die from such trauma....
it was said her HF is equal to logans...

prove it...

unless her HF can help her recover from those injuries (and logan's CAN).. then her HF ISN'T on wolverine's level.. plain and simple.

jinzin

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Nothing that happened to Gorgon even gave him pause... nothing even slowed him down. He was a beast, and for all purposes pretty much impervious to harm. Out side of dues ex-machina there is nothing that can stop him. He would kick Gamora's ass.

cheers

srankmissingnin

Wolverine said Gamora healed as fast as him. Daredevil said that Wolverine's sense were superior. Both of these things are untrue. 'Sides no matter what was said, one example of getting stabbed and healing isn't enough to put her healing factor on Wolverine's level... considering he has healed from far worse, considerably faster.

capt it up

what people forget about gorgon is the fact he is dead. How do you stop a dead man with a massive healing factor. stabbing him in the heart would be like stabbing him any were else

darthgoober

Originally posted by jinzin
I didn't ask what she can survive. i asked what you think she can heal..

wolverine may die but he HEALS back from it anyway.. even when burnt to crisp he HEALS back to normal...
considering that you think he can't survive then I'll take that as a conssession.. her HF isn't on wolverine's level.. nuff said.
Yes, all that means is that his PHYSICAL healing factor is incapable of sustaining all that damage on it's own. ANY healing factor could heal someone from a skeleton, if the person didn't die first. Because the healing factor would slowly repair the damage. She may not have a spiritual healing factor like Wolverine, but their PHYSICAL healing factors are on par.

Originally posted by jinzin
wolverine's statment was made over a decade ago, before wolverine's admantium was ripped out of his body allowing his mutation to PROGRESS, and his regneration to become more powerful... it has little value to comparison of wolverine today... gorgon took it to wolvie and pushed him to his limit not 2 years ago, which is of MUCH more merit.. so that's that.
But unless I'm mistaken, he still had some insane healing feats back then, so it's still comparable. Remember, I didn't say they where equal, I said hers was on par with his(meaning in the same league.

Originally posted by jinzin
it's not BS though, he was shot in the face with a rocket, he had things done to him that would leave any living person crippled or pulp on the floor, he's not a living person... she can't register damage on him... sorry.
That's right. He's got super human durability and a resistance to pain so what? That doesn't mean that it's impossible to injure him, it just means that it's more difficult to injure, and he doesn't feel pain. So the PCP analogy stands.

Originally posted by jinzin
again it's not quantity of skill that counts of quality.. shang chi proved this, batman's proven this, cap has proven this.... no expression

Wait, so your saying that Wolverine's knowledge of all those different fighting techniques doesn't really matter, the fact that Cap normally shows more skill then Wolverine is an indication that Cap is a superior fighter.

Originally posted by jinzin
exactly.. then it doesn't matter.
Cap shows more skill than Wolverine normally, so I think he's a bad standard for the subject. I mean really, how many times has ANYONE fought someone on Cap's skill level? There's not really a lot of characters that possess enough skill to be on Cap's level, and still have the overall power to be a serious threat to Gamora. So it kinda makes sense that she doesn't have many showings like that.

capt it up

no her healign factor not. when you show her on fire with most of her body burnt away,but still able to heal and get back up them we talk. oh and wolverine was talking after it happen so he did nto die.

also when his heart below up that wa shis healing factor not the immortal thing. The immortal thing is when his body has really nothing to heal from when he is nothing, but a skeleton.

darthgoober

Originally posted by capt it up
no her healign factor not. when you show her on fire with most of her body burnt away,but still able to heal and get back up them we talk. oh and wolverine was talking after it happen so he did nto die.

also when his heart below up that wa shis healing factor not the immortal thing. The immortal thing is when his body has really nothing to heal from when he is nothing, but a skeleton.
Wait, so now we don't accept Wolverine's own assessments of his abilities? Hmmm........

capt it up

Originally posted by darthgoober
Wait, so now we don't accept Wolverine's own assessments of his abilities? Hmmm........
that was back over 10 years ago pre two major healign factor up grades. sweet she has wolverine healing factor from over 10 years ago big whoop. Not to mention in that same arc DD said logan had superior senses so is that true also?

SpunkySmurph

jinzin

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yes, all that means is that his PHYSICAL healing factor is incapable of sustaining all that damage on it's own. ANY healing factor could heal someone from a skeleton, if the person didn't die first. Because the healing factor would slowly repair the damage. She may not have a spiritual healing factor like Wolverine, but their PHYSICAL healing factors are on par.

But unless I'm mistaken, he still had some insane healing feats back then, so it's still comparable. Remember, I didn't say they where equal, I said hers was on par with his(meaning in the same league.

That's right. He's got super human durability and a resistance to pain so what? That doesn't mean that it's impossible to injure him, it just means that it's more difficult to injure, and he doesn't feel pain. So the PCP analogy stands.

Wait, so your saying that Wolverine's knowledge of all those different fighting techniques doesn't really matter, the fact that Cap normally shows more skill then Wolverine is an indication that Cap is a superior fighter.

Cap shows more skill than Wolverine normally, so I think he's a bad standard for the subject. I mean really, how many times has ANYONE fought someone on Cap's skill level? There's not really a lot of characters that possess enough skill to be on Cap's level, and still have the overall power to be a serious threat to Gamora. So it kinda makes sense that she doesn't have many showings like that.

again i ask you to prove her healing factor is on par with logan.. if she can't recover from a drop of blood, from a skeleton, from having her head cut off, or being incinerated then it's not on par with logans..
prove that it is... please, I'm all for you proving this beyond some comment logan made over a decade ago that doesn't even matter nowdays.. but go ahead..

again logan's healing factor allows his spirit to reclaim life, without his HF to heal so completely from practically nothing he's have nothing to come back to, other people with healing factors die, when they die so do their healing factors.. wolverine's doesn't... it endures..

no it's not comparible.. it's a FACT that wolverine's mutation progresed without his admantium.. he's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then what he used to be: not comparible..

it IS impossible to injure him though.. show one time where he was injured.. no expression

he took plenty of punishment so it shouldn't be hard.. unless... shifty

well that's what i would be saying if cap could prove he was a superior fighter.. which he hasn't.. lame counter on your behalf.. moving on.

and the one showing she DOES have against a skilled opponent on cap's level had her at a stalmate.. geeee willy! big grin

capt it up

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
erm

The majority of Gorgon's appearances were spent killing a few hand ninjas, and a ton of generic, nameless SHIELD soldiers. Hell, he didn't actually do much impressive beyond taking out Wolverine and Elektra... and none of that would even leave Gamora with a drop of sweat. You're going to need to find something a little more impressive before you even begin to think of beating her... much less ass-kicking.
how about beign able to move at the speed of thought or beign able to read others mind or beign stated of having superhuman strength, or be a dead man with a huge healign factor

SpunkySmurph

Originally posted by capt it up
how about beign able to move at the speed of thought or beign able to read others mind or beign stated of having superhuman strength, or be a dead man with a huge healign factor

*sigh*

1. Gamora, both before her power up and since is extremley fast, and probably stronger then Gorgon
2. For the last time, we're debating the no-telepathy match
3. And, again, the fact that he's dead means little. He can still take damage.

darthgoober

Originally posted by jinzin
again i ask you to prove her healing factor is on par with logan.. if she can't recover from a drop of blood, from a skeleton, from having her head cut off, or being incinerated then it's not on par with logans..
prove that it is... please, I'm all for you proving this beyond some comment logan made over a decade ago that doesn't even matter nowdays.. but go ahead..
My proof is Wolverine's assessment. Or do you not accept Wolverine's assessment's of his abilities as proof or not, because he's said plenty about himself that I disagree with.

Originally posted by jinzin
again logan's healing factor allows his spirit to reclaim life, without his HF to heal so completely from practically nothing he's have nothing to come back to, other people with healing factors die, when they die so do their healing factors.. wolverine's doesn't... it endures..
I'm not familiar of the intricacies of Wolverine's recton, but according to capt, his spiritual healing factor is a secondary mutation. That means that it's two separate powers. So the spiritual healing factor brings him back to life, until his physical healing factor has time to heal his wounds. As I said, ANY healing factor would heal someone in an instance like that, it would just be a matter of time.

Originally posted by jinzin
no it's not comparible.. it's a FACT that wolverine's mutation progresed without his admantium.. he's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then what he used to be: not comparible.. Well then on par with what it was at the time. He still had some ridiculous healing feats during that period, so her healing factor is still impressive.

Originally posted by jinzin
it IS impossible to injure him though.. show one time where he was injured.. no expression

Wait, you mean that NO ONE was able to injure him? Then how was he beaten?

Originally posted by jinzin
he took plenty of punishment so it shouldn't be hard.. unless... shifty
She can deal out plenty of punishment(just ask Drax or Maxam) so I'm sure she's covered.

Originally posted by jinzin
well that's what i would be saying if cap could prove he was a superior fighter.. which he hasn't.. lame counter on your behalf.. moving on.
He does on average if you think about it. You guys are always going on about Wolverine knowing all those styles like it means something, but in a situation like this, the rules get flipped suddenly.

Originally posted by jinzin
and the one showing she DOES have against a skilled opponent on cap's level had her at a stalmate.. geeee willy! big grin

It's a stretch to call that a stalemate. It lasted like 3 seconds, so it's not like they went toe to toe for a while before it got broken up.

darthgoober

Let's think of it like this, what are Gorgon's major h2h accomplishments?

SpunkySmurph

Originally posted by jinzin

again logan's healing factor allows his spirit to reclaim life, without his HF to heal so completely from practically nothing he's have nothing to come back to, other people with healing factors die, when they die so do their healing factors.. wolverine's doesn't... it endures..

no it's not comparible.. it's a FACT that wolverine's mutation progresed without his admantium.. he's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then what he used to be: not comparible..

it IS impossible to injure him though.. show one time where he was injured.. no expression

he took plenty of punishment so it shouldn't be hard.. unless... shifty

well that's what i would be saying if cap could prove he was a superior fighter.. which he hasn't.. lame counter on your behalf.. moving on.

It doesn't matter if she had the spiritual healing factor anyways though... even if she did, the physical healing factor (which she is equal to, by Wolverine's own admission). Beyond that, this most recent upgrade has left her with apparent major durability upgrades anyways.

It's not as if Wolverine wasn't accelling in the healing factor department back then... your downplaying it as if it's a minor capability.

Please... just because you think a bunch of kill-with-a-pillow SHIELD soldiers that he killed (who are apparently, according to Srank, worth (or was it Jinzin... whoever I was debating with in the Foot vs. Hand thread) 1/10th of a single Hand ninja) couldn't do much damage to him, you equate that to being entirley invulnerable? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Well, it seems that the main argument for Wolverine's skill is that he's hand tons of expierience with tons of different styles of MA... it's the same thing with Gamora, only extrapolated.

jinzin

Originally posted by darthgoober
My proof is Wolverine's assessment. Or do you not accept Wolverine's assessment's of his abilities as proof or not, because he's said plenty about himself that I disagree with.

I'm not familiar of the intricacies of Wolverine's recton, but according to capt, his spiritual healing factor is a secondary mutation. That means that it's two separate powers. So the spiritual healing factor brings him back to life, until his physical healing factor has time to heal his wounds. As I said, ANY healing factor would heal someone in an instance like that, it would just be a matter of time.

Well then on par with what it was at the time. He still had some ridiculous healing feats during that period, so her healing factor is still impressive.

Wait, you mean that NO ONE was able to injure him? Then how was he beaten?

She can deal out plenty of punishment(just ask Drax or Maxam) so I'm sure she's covered.

He does on average if you think about it. You guys are always going on about Wolverine knowing all those styles like it means something, but in a situation like this, the rules get flipped suddenly.

It's a stretch to call that a stalemate. It lasted like 3 seconds, so it's not like they went toe to toe for a while before it got broken up.

your proof is faulty..
one: wolverine was unaware of what his healing factor is really capible of due to admantium poisoning..
two: his statment has no value because his healing factor today is heads and shoulders above what it was at that time.. why do i have to explain this to you?

I have no idea why cap relates his spiritual healing factor (what the hell is a spiritual healing factor anyways?) as a secondary mutation.. nothing has been stated to equate to that..

when wolverine dies his soul wonders until he can consciously revoke "the light" when he does, his healing factors kick starts.. it allows him to come back from practically nothing..
if gamora's hf can't do that then she's not on par.. that simple.

he was defeated by dues ex-machina undone by his own superpower...
wiat so your arguing against him even though you're unaware of his abilities? doh

and she can deal all the punishment she wants.. point is it won't register on gorgon.. she can't in turn say the same about him though.. that that's a problem.

what do you mean by "he does on average"? you just said cap was superior to logan in fighting ability.. thus far I have yet to see that..
your argument relies on benefit of the doubt.. that doesn't account as fact.

is it as much of a stretch as pretending cheap shots on drax are fights?

jinzin

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
It doesn't matter if she had the spiritual healing factor anyways though... even if she did, the physical healing factor (which she is equal to, by Wolverine's own admission). Beyond that, this most recent upgrade has left her with apparent major durability upgrades anyways.

It's not as if Wolverine wasn't accelling in the healing factor department back then... your downplaying it as if it's a minor capability.

Please... just because you think a bunch of kill-with-a-pillow SHIELD soldiers that he killed (who are apparently, according to Srank, worth (or was it Jinzin... whoever I was debating with in the Foot vs. Hand thread) 1/10th of a single Hand ninja) couldn't do much damage to him, you equate that to being entirley invulnerable? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Well, it seems that the main argument for Wolverine's skill is that he's hand tons of expierience with tons of different styles of MA... it's the same thing with Gamora, only extrapolated.

can she take more punishment then wolverine?
can she heal from things as bad or as fast as wolverine?
the answer to both questions is no.. so she's STILL not on par with him...

and no, I'm not downplaying wolverine's healing factor.. he had a good healing factor.. but let's think geometrically here..

if gamora's hf was on par with wolverine's of the 1990's and gorgon took it to wolverine with a much more enhanced hf then his 1990 counterpart... well then her HF doesn't account for much here does it?

the value of the shield agents is inconsequential, you're logic has more holes then swiss cheese...

if it was a CHILD that shot gorgon with multiple rockets, the rockets would have done the same amount of damage... gorgon wasn't damaged that's the point.. no one said he's invulnerable.. just that damage doesn't effect him..

his proof of skill is concerned with the people he fights as well, when he's punking out guys like shang chi effortlessly, and guys who put iron fist down like a baby.. well...

Martian_mind

http://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=badmoveyn5.jpg
http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=army3vd0.jpg
http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=army4cl4.jpg

Don't have any feats of Gorgons....but i'll assume that he and Gamora are at least equal in strength

srankmissingnin

Wolverine crashed into Gorgon at 100mph and then dropped him 20 stories and he didn't even register it... and the whole time Wolverine was skewering him with his claws. Gorgon is a walking corpses, he is impervious to damage, aside from incinerating him or a handy Dues Ex-machina devices he is pretty much unbeatable.

Gamora isn't Quicksilver, her speed is low level superhuman if not peak human, she had no ranged options and needs to fight in melee combat. If she fights Gorgon, she is going to get hit and she isn't going to shrug of the damange like Gorgon will.

SpunkySmurph

Originally posted by jinzin
your proof is faulty..
one: wolverine was unaware of what his healing factor is really capible of due to admantium poisoning..
two: his statment has no value because his healing factor today is heads and shoulders above what it was at that time.. why do i have to explain this to you?

I have no idea why cap relates his spiritual healing factor (what the hell is a spiritual healing factor anyways?) as a secondary mutation.. nothing has been stated to equate to that..

when wolverine dies his soul wonders until he can consciously revoke "the light" when he does, his healing factors kick starts.. it allows him to come back from practically nothing..
if gamora's hf can't do that then she's not on par.. that simple.

and she can deal all the punishment she wants.. point is it won't register on gorgon.. she can't in turn say the same about him though.. that that's a problem.

what do you mean by "he does on average"? you just said cap was superior to logan in fighting ability.. thus far I have yet to see that..
your argument relies on benefit of the doubt.. that doesn't account as fact.

is it as much of a stretch as pretending cheap shots on drax are fights?

Get your head out of your ass Jinzin. We've been saying for the last few posts repeatedly that Gamora's healing factor is on par with what Wolverine's was back then... which is still no small addition. As well, she has shown pretty high durability post-upgrade

If you look at my last post, it shouldn't matter anyways...

He has a healing factor... not invulnerability. Show me proof of him, or anybody, saying that he is in fact invulnerable. The fact that a bunch of cuddle bears in SHIELD outfits didn't do more then minimal damage does not impress. erm

SpunkySmurph

Ugh! Triple Post. Sorry guys

Martian_mind

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wolverine crashed into Gorgon at 100mph and then dropped him 20 stories and he didn't even register it... and the whole time Wolverine was skewering him with his claws. Gorgon is a walking corpses, he is impervious to damage, aside from incinerating him or a handy Dues Ex-machina devices he is pretty much unbeatable.

Gamora isn't Quicksilver, her speed is low level superhuman if not peak human, she had no ranged options and needs to fight in melee combat. If she fights Gorgon, she is going to get hit and she isn't going to shrug of the damange like Gorgon will.

http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=annihilationronan3004bk3.jpg

Ranged Attack that stumbled Rhonan

http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=annihilationronan3005xy3.jpg
http://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?image=annihilationronan3006gn1.jpg

Shrugs off a hit from Rhonan

http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=annihilationronan3007vz4.jpg

Peak human speed my Arse

SpunkySmurph

Ugh! Triple Post. Sorry guys

srankmissingnin

Originally posted by Martian_mind
http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=annihilationronan3004bk3.jpg

Ranged Attack that stumbled Rhonan

http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=annihilationronan3005xy3.jpg
http://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?image=annihilationronan3006gn1.jpg

Shrugs off a hit from Rhonan

http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=annihilationronan3007vz4.jpg

Peak human speed my Arse

I thought that blue aura was coming from Ronan when I read it... he did a similar fuzzy blue energy thing a bunch of times in Annihilation. Anyway not much of a "range" attack when you are less then two feet away from someone.

She has some nice blunt trauma damage soak to be sure, too bad Gorgon uses a sword.

... What I'm I supposed to be looking at here? Jumping is a strenght feat, not speed. Nothing there suggests super speed, she Rhino charged Ronan while he was getting up... which is once again more of a strength thing.

SpunkySmurph

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wolverine crashed into Gorgon at 100mph and then dropped him 20 stories and he didn't even register it... and the whole time Wolverine was skewering him with his claws.

He shouldn't have 'registered' it, because he doesn't register pain. You've now become self-defeating with your arguments. However, that doesn't equate to being impervious to damage. Given enough damage, his body will still blackout, which is a win for Gamora. Just because you can't feel yourself being beaten into a bloody pulp doesn't mean it's not happening

darthgoober

Originally posted by jinzin
your proof is faulty..
one: wolverine was unaware of what his healing factor is really capible of due to admantium poisoning..
two: his statment has no value because his healing factor today is heads and shoulders above what it was at that time.. why do i have to explain this to you?

I have no idea why cap relates his spiritual healing factor (what the hell is a spiritual healing factor anyways?) as a secondary mutation.. nothing has been stated to equate to that..

when wolverine dies his soul wonders until he can consciously revoke "the light" when he does, his healing factors kick starts.. it allows him to come back from practically nothing..
if gamora's hf can't do that then she's not on par.. that simple.

he was defeated by dues ex-machina undone by his own superpower...
wiat so your arguing against him even though you're unaware of his abilities? doh

and she can deal all the punishment she wants.. point is it won't register on gorgon.. she can't in turn say the same about him though.. that that's a problem.

what do you mean by "he does on average"? you just said cap was superior to logan in fighting ability.. thus far I have yet to see that..
your argument relies on benefit of the doubt.. that doesn't account as fact.

is it as much of a stretch as pretending cheap shots on drax are fights?
Here let's be logical about this, because we could run in circles all night. What are Gorgons major accomplishments without using his TP or Stone Gaze? And how has he been beaten in the past?

jinzin

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Get your head out of your ass Jinzin. We've been saying for the last few posts repeatedly that Gamora's healing factor is on par with what Wolverine's was back then... which is still no small addition. As well, she has shown pretty high durability post-upgrade

If you look at my last post, it shouldn't matter anyways...

He has a healing factor... not invulnerability. Show me proof of him, or anybody, saying that he is in fact invulnerable. The fact that a bunch of cuddle bears in SHIELD outfits didn't do more then minimal damage does not impress. erm

Cap demonstrates more skill with his fighting on average... Wolverine slashes a bunch, growls and says bub. There is the occaision where he demonstrates skill, for sure. Apparently this is because he knows all the MA on earth... but it's about quality, not quantity, right Jinzin?

No, she's had actual full out battles with Drax.
Wait... you mean your making accusations about a fight without even knowing anything about it? doh

This is going nowhere...

Time for scans. Let's see some real MA feats of Gorgon's

that's a tad bit uncalled for...

lets not get frustrated with me because you have a hard time following trains of thought... gorgons HF was brought up and it was retaliated that she has one too.. but like beasts "healing factor" and spiderman's "healing factor"... if she takes damage in this fight her "healing factor" won't matter.. that's all my point is...
current wolverine couldn't keep up with the punishment that gorgon was dishing out what chance does gamora have if her best feat of a HF is being on par with classic admantiumized wolverine? none.. that's what.

and again.. clearly..he's not invulnerable.. BUT wolverine does discuss how much has gone into taking gorgon down, what gorgon's been hit with and how NONE of it's effecting him.. and....
AGAIN.. it's not the shield agents that matter.. it's the weapons that they were using on gorgon, the weapons that they were hitting him with.. nothing was working.. that SHOULD impress... if a toddler presses a button and a nuke hits wolverine in the face and he does't even register it as a threat that should impress.. whether the toddler pushed the botton or not.. why is that so hard to follow for you.. oh that's right.. the trains of thought just keep missing your station.. my bad.. next time I'll draw ou out a map in crayon.. okay?
okay.. wink

darthgoober

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Gamora isn't Quicksilver, her speed is low level superhuman if not peak human, she had no ranged options and needs to fight in melee combat. If she fights Gorgon, she is going to get hit and she isn't going to shrug of the damange like Gorgon will.

Taking down an entire UN platoon(at least, there may be more and they came complete with tanks no less) in 8 minutes implies more than peak human speed. And this was before her upgrade.

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/485/armybattalionln4.th.jpg

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/5220/army2strengthvz2.th.jpg
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/932/badmoveyn5.th.jpg
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/5163/army3vd0.th.jpg
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/7084/army4cl4.th.jpg

jinzin

Originally posted by darthgoober
Here let's be logical about this, because we could run in circles all night. What are Gorgons major accomplishments without using his TP or Stone Gaze? And how has he been beaten in the past?

okay let's see...

he's trained blindfolded to fight multiple opponents.... that's just for skill.
he's faster in combat then wolverine or elektra.
he's been able to deflect automatic gunfire from 10 feet away.
he's broken a sword to pieces by biting on it.
he's manhandled elektra without losing his advantage or taking one hit whatsoever.
he KOed elektra, killed 12 shield agents, and temporarily dropped logan all at the same time before any of them could react.. AFTER he'd been hit with multiple smart rockets and had his house torched.
he got right up immediately after being dropped 20 stories and being knocked out a window by wolverine coming at him 100 mph.
he took multiple stabbings, cuts, lacerations without registration of them.
he's got a healing factor that allowed him to continue to cloober wolverine after being gutted.. he didn't have cut marks on his stomach seconds later.

that's all i can think of for now..

see the thing is, his feats don't need to be overly impressive..

his skills are obviously enough to at least contend with gamora if not completely stalemate or defeat her.

and his damage soak, healing factor, and undead nature allow him to take anything she's got in stride..

again, she only need make one mistake.. considering she's made that mistake against maxim, and wolverine.. thinking her to do that against gorgon isn't a stretch imo.

SpunkySmurph

Originally posted by jinzin
that's a tad bit uncalled for...

lets not get frustrated with me because you have a hard time following trains of thought... gorgons HF was brought up and it was retaliated that she has one too.. but like beasts "healing factor" and spiderman's "healing factor"... if she takes damage in this fight her "healing factor" won't matter.. that's all my point is...
current wolverine couldn't keep up with the punishment that gorgon was dishing out what chance does gamora have if her best feat of a HF is being on par with classic admantiumized wolverine? none.. that's what.

and again.. clearly..he's not invulnerable.. BUT wolverine does discuss how much has gone into taking gorgon down, what gorgon's been hit with and how NONE of it's effecting him.. and....
AGAIN.. it's not the shield agents that matter.. it's the weapons that they were using on gorgon, the weapons that they were hitting him with.. nothing was working.. that SHOULD impress... if a toddler presses a button and a nuke hits wolverine in the face and he does't even register it as a threat that should impress.. whether the toddler pushed the botton or not.. why is that so hard to follow for you.. oh that's right.. the trains of thought just keep missing your station.. my bad.. next time I'll draw ou out a map in crayon.. okay?
okay.. wink

I do not believe that cap displays more skills on average.. he just displays skills more often then logan.. their feats of skill are roughly comparible.. and wolverine in direct comparisons has been shown superior.. so...
yeah..

and uh.. no.. i'm doing nothing of the sort..
gamora had one battle that was anything close to an actual fight.. aaaaand it didn't even take place in a coporial realm.. her other encounters with him were cheap shots.. that doesn't equate to a fight.

Perhaps, and I take back the head-out-of-your-ass comment.

But it wasn't because I can't follow a train of thought. You've been arguing the useless point of Wolverine's healing factor right now being a bit better then back then (good job thumb up

), and you only now decided to make the point at all considerably relevant by saying that Wolverine couldn't handle it with a better healing factor. But that is STILL, for all purposes, a waste of time to post, because we're not dealing with Wolverine here. We're dealing with a much, much better fighter. It still helps Gamora, as she will assuredly be getting owned by him MUCH less then Wolverine.

I made the second point about the SHIELD agents not in reference to your off-panel hyperbole-of-a-feat, but instead to the fact that, as I right this post, I have not yet seen a single feat from any of you, accept for retracted claims that he is impossible to damage.
How about next time you actually read the post, and THEN make an ass of yourself? Mkay, thanks. wink

You don't believe Cap displays more skills on average, you just think he displays skills more in general. What the f**k?

Good job, ace thumb up

And yet it was still all real battling... only Drax was more powerful... so.... what's your point? confused

darthgoober

Originally posted by jinzin
okay let's see...

he's trained blindfolded to fight multiple opponents.... that's just for skill.
he's faster in combat then wolverine or elektra.
he's been able to deflect automatic gunfire from 10 feet away.
he's broken a sword to pieces by biting on it.
he's manhandled elektra without losing his advantage or taking one hit whatsoever.
he KOed elektra, killed 12 shield agents, and temporarily dropped logan all at the same time before any of them could react.. AFTER he'd been hit with multiple smart rockets and had his house torched.
he got right up immediately after being dropped 20 stories and being knocked out a window by wolverine coming at him 100 mph.
he took multiple stabbings, cuts, lacerations without registration of them.
he's got a healing factor that allowed him to continue to cloober wolverine after being gutted.. he didn't have cut marks on his stomach seconds later.

that's all i can think of for now..

see the thing is, his feats don't need to be overly impressive..

his skills are obviously enough to at least contend with gamora if not completely stalemate or defeat her.

and his damage soak, healing factor, and undead nature allow him to take anything she's got in stride..

again, she only need make one mistake.. considering she's made that mistake against maxim, and wolverine.. thinking her to do that against gorgon isn't a stretch imo.
Ok now let's compare....

Been training to combat multiple opponents far superior to humans since she was a child.
Fast enough to speedblitz Ronan(and I believe all Kree are notably faster than humans, and even if not, this was an amped up Ronan the Accuser).
Has dodged nearly every shot that's been taken at her since her inception(except for cheapshots, of course).
Knocked the Power Gem out of Drax.
Manhandled Terrax
Taken down an entire UN platoon in 8 minutes, without a scratch on her.
Taken shot from Ronan the Accuser
Got a healing factor equal to Wolverine's in the 90's, which is still impressive.

So yeah, I think Gamora has been more impressive overall.

But the DO need to be more impressive for him to be considered in Gamora's league. The fact of the matter is that at this point Gamora ranks somewhere on the bottom rungs of a herald level character, and nothing you've said indicates that Gorgon is on that level.

jinzin

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Perhaps, and I take back the head-out-of-your-ass comment.

But it wasn't because I can't follow a train of thought. You've been arguing the useless point of Wolverine's healing factor right now being a bit better then back then (good job thumb up

You don't believe Cap displays more skills on average, you just think he displays skills more in general. What the f**k?

Good job, ace thumb up

And yet it was still all real battling... only Drax was more powerful... so.... what's your point? confused

again the hf does matter...

if one stab to the gut puts gamora down.. then she's not ready to fight this war.. if gorgon starts to hurt her she's not gonna bounce back up from it.. she'll go down and she'll stay down.. there was a point to that.. one stab to the gut is apparently all it will take... confused

dude i really don't know why you're being such a dick right now.. you're given the feats and you call them hyperbole? isn't hypoerbole spoken? this was DISPLAYED.... and again no one's saying he's invulnerable.. but these feats did happen.. swallow them..

the only one here making an ass out of themselves is you, you obviously have nothing more to fall back on in this argument, I stop you and crush you at every turn and so you become angry and throw around unprovoked insults..

it's sad. I'm trying to be civil here..

you downplayed what happened to gorgon because it happened by shield agents.. my point: it doesn't matter who hit him, but WHAT it was they hit him with...

uhhhhggg... okay... look, cap displays skills MORE OFTEN.. that doesn't mean his skills are MORE IMPRESSIVE, or MORE COMPLEX then what wolverine has shown he can do...
cap doesn't appear to have superior skill, he just uses the skills he has more often.. why is that hard to follow?

It was real battling in a non coporial realm where powers were assessed and distributed differently then in the 616 world.. it doesn't account for anything here as far as I'm concerned.. you may as well post up stuff from the manga verse to prove a point like that.

jinzin

Originally posted by darthgoober
Ok now let's compare....

Been training to combat multiple opponents far superior to humans since she was a child.
Fast enough to speedblitz Ronan(and I believe all Kree are notably faster than humans, and even if not, this was an amped up Ronan the Accuser).
Has dodged nearly every shot that's been taken at her since her inception(except for cheapshots, of course).
Knocked the Power Gem out of Drax.
Manhandled Terrax
Taken down an entire UN platoon in 8 minutes, without a scratch on her.
Taken shot from Ronan the Accuser
Got a healing factor equal to Wolverine's in the 90's, which is still impressive.

So yeah, I think Gamora has been more impressive overall.

But the DO need to be more impressive for him to be considered in Gamora's league. The fact of the matter is that at this point Gamora ranks somewhere on the bottom rungs of a herald level character, and nothing you've said indicates that Gorgon is on that level.

well I'm just going to say I don't hold most of those feats in as high reguard as you do since half of them are skewed.... but that nowithstanding..

gorgon doesn't have to be.. look.. gorgons attacks are going to be effective reguardless of her "level"
her attacks on the other hand will be for the most part unnoticed...

how will she put gorgon down?
punches and nerve strikes are useless.. grappling only gets her stabbed..

gorgon can damage her, she can't damage him... gorgon's punishment will last a while. her's won't last seconds..

their skills are comparible, and the only way we're even debating this now is by stripping gorgon of the more powerful half of his powers.. erm

darthgoober

Originally posted by jinzin
well I'm just going to say I don't hold most of those feats in as high reguard as you do since half of them are skewed.... but that nowithstanding..
What's skewed about them?

Originally posted by jinzin
gorgon doesn't have to be.. look.. gorgons attacks are going to be effective reguardless of her "level"
her attacks on the other hand will be for the most part unnoticed...
What makes you think her attacks are going to be ineffective? (You never answered about all the times he's been beaten in the past other than the once).

Originally posted by jinzin
how will she put gorgon down?
punches and nerve strikes are useless.. grappling only gets her stabbed..
Are you kidding? Your talking about shots from arguably the best fighter in the Marvel Universe, who also approaches class 100 in terms of strength.

Originally posted by jinzin
gorgon can damage her, she can't damage him... gorgon's punishment will last a while. her's won't last seconds..
And she can heal. Your going on the assumption that he's armed with his sword, while she's weaponless. But I'm pretty sure this is a h2h situation, and nothing you've said indicates that he's in league with Ronan in terms of strength. So she'll be able to take all the damage he deals, and probably hand out quite a bit more.

Originally posted by jinzin
their skills are comparible, and the only way we're even debating this now is by stripping gorgon of the more powerful half of his powers.. erm

And she's been stripped of the Godslayer too. I'm pretty sure that the Godslayer would take Gorgon out no problem(even Thanos fears that dagger).

SpunkySmurph

Originally posted by jinzin
again the hf does matter...

if one stab to the gut puts gamora down.. then she's not ready to fight this war.. if gorgon starts to hurt her she's not gonna bounce back up from it.. she'll go down and she'll stay down.. there was a point to that.. one stab to the gut is apparently all it will take... confused

you downplayed what happened to gorgon because it happened by shield agents.. my point: it doesn't matter who hit him, but WHAT it was they hit him with...

uhhhhggg... okay... look, cap displays skills MORE OFTEN.. that doesn't mean his skills are MORE IMPRESSIVE, or MORE COMPLEX then what wolverine has shown he can do...
cap doesn't appear to have superior skill, he just uses the skills he has more often.. why is that hard to follow?

*sigh* First off, let's stop the insults, bashing and whatnot. I know full well it wasn't only me, but I was certainly a perpetrator. So, let's agree to act like adults? Good.

Then I'll take out the insulting parts of your post because I'm not going to respond to them...
(Though... for the record... crushing me at every turn? Yeah... roll eyes (sarcastic)

)

As proven, she clearly has higher durability now, and the PIS aura of Wolverine isn't a factor here, so the hf will at least contribute. And she DID heal from that wound, in the comic.

Again, I was reffering to feats of on-panel people-unable-to-hurt him durability. Which, I concluded, would have to be all done by Elektra, Wolverine and SHIELD agents. I thought most of the 'thrown everything they could at him' WAS a stated comment, which was what the hyperbole thing was about. Regardless, let's carry on.

Well, the comment "I don't think Cap shows skills more on average, he just shows skills more often", seemed to me like "I don't think apples are usually red, they are just normally red" stick out tongue

I guess I misunderstood... confused

Anyways, I'm not trying to make an enemy here Jinzin, so I'll personally back off with all the insulting comments. Sorry again.

jinzin

Originally posted by darthgoober
What's skewed about them?

What makes you think her attacks are going to be ineffective? (You never answered about all the times he's been beaten in the past other than the once).
Are you kidding? Your talking about shots from arguably the best fighter in the Marvel Universe, who also approaches class 100 in terms of strength.
And she can heal. Your going on the assumption that he's armed with his sword, while she's weaponless. But I'm pretty sure this is a h2h situation, and nothing you've said indicates that he's in league with Ronan in terms of strength. So she'll be able to take all the damage he deals, and probably hand out quite a bit more.
And she's been stripped of the Godslayer too. I'm pretty sure that the Godslayer would take Gorgon out no problem(even Thanos fears that dagger).

that's because after his ressurection he was never beaten any "other times"... confused

they are, if you wish to discuss why I think they are feel free to PM me as i don't think my personal opinion on the matter.. well.. matters.. lol.

and again, what is she going to do to him?
blunt force won't work, grappling won't work, explosives and projectiles won't work...
what else does she got?
I also haven't seen evidence that she's anywhere NEAR class 100 strength.. but if you've got scans I've got the time...

sword's his standard weapon.. h2h is her standard style.. of course I would assume that.. no expression

the godsayer would work if she touched him with it, wih tp and his stare... she won't...

jinzin

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph

I don't see how her durability is proven whatsoever.. she can take blunt force trauma.. okay that's fine..
"as proven" she can't take stabs to the gut.. she has wonder woman sydrome simple as. She can heal fine, but if one strike drops her for any amount of seconds.. her hf is a virtual non factor.. she still loses.

well, it's no some to disregard.. those are the feats he has..

well, your perception of my statment should be cleared up now..

darthgoober

Originally posted by jinzin
that's because after his ressurection he was never beaten any "other times"... confused

they are, if you wish to discuss why I think they are feel free to PM me as i don't think my personal opinion on the matter.. well.. matters.. lol.
No come on. Do you think the feats are inaccurate? Am I lying or exaggerating or something?

Originally posted by jinzin
and again, what is she going to do to him?
blunt force won't work, grappling won't work, explosives and projectiles won't work...
what else does she got?
I also haven't seen evidence that she's anywhere NEAR class 100 strength.. but if you've got scans I've got the time...
Well, the UN soldier suggested that they classify her strength at the level of Ironman. And she's far more physically powerful now than she was then. I don't think she IS class 100, but she's probably somewhere in the area(seeing as how she was able to take on the likes of Terrax and Ronan physically).

Originally posted by jinzin
sword's his standard weapon.. h2h is her standard style.. of course I would assume that.. no expression

Actually, her dagger IS part of her standard weaponry. That's why I'm assuming it's h2h, and that's what I've been debating.

Originally posted by jinzin
the godsayer would work if she touched him with it, wih tp and his stare... she won't...
It would work if she threw it at him(she's skilled enough that it would likely hit.)

darthgoober

Here lets just clear up the whole matter of armament now. Smurf, does he have his sword or is it h2h?(If he gets his sword, she should get her dagger.)

jinzin

Originally posted by darthgoober
No come on. Do you think the feats are inaccurate? Am I lying or exaggerating or something?

Well, the UN soldier suggested that they classify her strength at the level of Ironman. And she's far more physically powerful now than she was then. I don't think she IS class 100, but she's probably somewhere in the area(seeing as how she was able to take on the likes of Terrax and Ronan physically).

Actually, her dagger IS part of her standard weaponry. That's why I'm assuming it's h2h, and that's what I've been debating.

It would work if she threw it at him(she's skilled enough that it would likely hit.)

if you want to discussed the skewed perspective pm me..

moving on..

see. scewed.. she avoided terrax, and then got in his face when he.. wasn't quite himself.

she has the dagger, but her standard style of fighting is in h2h engagment.. hell it even was during her fight with ronan...
h2h isn't a question here.. I just thought I'd point out that gorgon is severly depowered to make this interesting.. and he is.

unfortunately, he's skilled enough and fast enough to dodge... also, how will she land her target when she can't look to where she is throwing without turning to stone, how will she land her target when he can read her mind and know's what she's doing before she does it?

jinzin

SpunkySmurph

Originally posted by darthgoober
Here lets just clear up the whole matter of armament now. Smurf, does he have his sword or is it h2h?(If he gets his sword, she should get her dagger.)

Well, she normally would have Godslayer, however that would create a whole 'nother argument. I've barely seen Gamora fight without a secondary weapon on hand (be it sword, extra dagger, gun, etc.)

Since he has his sword, shall we assume that she has her sword?

(As depicted here)

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/SpunkySmurph/Marvel/Scans/img023kf5-1.jpg

Would that not work for the purposes of the debate?

If so, assume for the purpose of the fight, all material weapons are unbreakable

jinzin

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Well, she normally would have Godslayer, however that would create a whole 'nother argument. I've barely seen Gamora fight without a secondary weapon on hand (be it sword, extra dagger, gun, etc.)

Since he has his sword, shall we assume that she has her sword?

(As depicted here)

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/SpunkySmurph/Marvel/Scans/img023kf5-1.jpg

Would that not work for the purposes of the debate?

If so, assume for the purpose of the fight, all material weapons are unbreakable

then give her a sword.. she'll still lose.

darthgoober

Originally posted by jinzin
if you want to discussed the skewed perspective pm me..
Fine.

Originally posted by jinzin
she has the dagger, but her standard style of fighting is in h2h engagment.. hell it even was during her fight with ronan...
h2h isn't a question here.. I just thought I'd point out that gorgon is severly depowered to make this interesting.. and he is.
Wolverine's standard style of fighting doesn't really utilize much in the way of martial arts skills, so should he be assumed to be without them for tread purposes?

Originally posted by jinzin
unfortunately, he's skilled enough and fast enough to dodge... also, how will she land her target when she can't look to where she is throwing without turning to stone, how will she land her target when he can read her mind and know's what she's doing before she does it?
So it's a crap shoot. If she manages to hit him(possible, since her speed/reflexes are arguably better) he dies, if not and he catches her with the stone gaze she dies.

darthgoober

SpunkySmurph

While we're there, the next scan is a definite strength feat, seeing as she is able to lock blades and hold her ground against a charging Ronan, and the result creates huge noise and vibrations

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/SpunkySmurph/Marvel/Scans/img024iv5-1.jpg

jinzin

Originally posted by darthgoober
Fine.

Wolverine's standard style of fighting doesn't really utilize much in the way of martial arts skills, so should he be assumed to be without them for tread purposes?

not necassarily.. we say that the fighters fight to the best of their abilities...

we assume this to be true for cap: but we don't take away his shield...

Originally posted by darthgoober
So it's a crap shoot. If she manages to hit him(possible, since her speed/reflexes are arguably better) he dies, if not and he catches her with the stone gaze she dies. again.. the fact that she'd be throwing blind and the faact that he's got the speed reflexes and the tp to know what's coming kinda help the guy out don'tcha think?

jinzin

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
While we're there, the next scan is a definite strength feat, seeing as she is able to lock blades and hold her ground against a charging Ronan, and the result creates huge noise and vibrations

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/SpunkySmurph/Marvel/Scans/img024iv5-1.jpg

I don't know.. amazons have been able to do the same with supergirl.. amazonns are nowhere near class 100.

SpunkySmurph

Originally posted by jinzin
I don't know.. amazons have been able to do the same with supergirl.. amazonns are nowhere near class 100.

And create vibrations that cause people more then fifty feet away to fall to the ground, cause the ground is shaking to much to keep their footing?

jinzin

ahh i missed that part.

SpunkySmurph

Originally posted by jinzin

again.. the fact that she'd be throwing blind and the faact that he's got the speed reflexes and the tp to know what's coming kinda help the guy out don'tcha think?

She has the speed to keep up with him, possibly even the speed advantage, so it would be much harder to follow her every move and respons, unlike for Wolverine and Elektra.

And with her speed and strength, a thrown dagger (and thrown by an expert) would have to be coming pretty DAMN fast.

In addition, it's not like he reads every thought... if he did, he wouldn't have been tricked into turning himself to stone

Alternativley, Gamora could just wear the same glasses that he always did... no expression

jinzin

see i don't see her as having any speed advantage here..

what has she done that makes her have such?

wolverine and elektra were barely able to react to the guy.. that makes him faster than taskmaster, faster than spiderman, silver samurai,

he's got extraordinary reflexes.. I don't think a guy who deflects automatic bullet fire is going to have much of a problem responding to gamera...

wolverine reacted to her just fine.. so did maxam.. neither are registered as superhuman in speed.. gorgon is..

would her dagger be coming faster than a bullet?
he didn't get tricked into turning into stone wolverine just reacted on instint.. telepaths have a problem with wolverine when he stops thinking.. which he does against telepaths quite a bit...

he?

darthgoober

Originally posted by jinzin
not necassarily.. we say that the fighters fight to the best of their abilities...

we assume this to be true for cap: but we don't take away his shield...
Yes, and at the best of her ability, she'd be going for the kill with her dagger.

Originally posted by jinzin
again.. the fact that she'd be throwing blind and the faact that he's got the speed reflexes and the tp to know what's coming kinda help the guy out don'tcha think?
Smurf covered this here...

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
She has the speed to keep up with him, possibly even the speed advantage, so it would be much harder to follow her every move and respons, unlike for Wolverine and Elektra.

And with her speed and strength, a thrown dagger (and thrown by an expert) would have to be coming pretty DAMN fast.

darthgoober

My wife's kicking me off the computer, so we'll have to take this up tomorrow.

SpunkySmurph

Well, it's about 1:20 here, so that sounds like a plan

Nite all. Good debate.

SpunkySmurph

Originally posted by jinzin
see i don't see her as having any speed advantage here..

what has she done that makes her have such?

wolverine and elektra were barely able to react to the guy.. that makes him faster than taskmaster, faster than spiderman, silver samurai,

he's got extraordinary reflexes.. I don't think a guy who deflects automatic bullet fire is going to have much of a problem responding to gamera...

wolverine reacted to her just fine.. so did maxam.. neither are registered as superhuman in speed.. gorgon is..

would her dagger be coming faster than a bullet?
he didn't get tricked into turning into stone wolverine just reacted on instint.. telepaths have a problem with wolverine when he stops thinking.. which he does against telepaths quite a bit...

he?

Well, for example, she threw Ronan a LONG way's, and then covered the distance before he even raised his head, and, when he did, before he could react, she charged him and sent his body flying high.

Scan's of deflecting each bullet? I'd like to judge for myself

That was pre-upgrade wink

With her strength? Who could say? Not to mention it would be better aimed (in a place harder to block, I assume)

Also, is his sword made of anything special? 'Cause if it isn't, I don't see why it would be able to stand up to a blow from Godslayer like that, if he tried to deflect it.

erm

I don't buy it. You have scans of someone saying this in application to the Gorgon scenerio?

Jyppe

Wolverine is a moron, he didn't even try to cut off gorgon's limbs or head. I don't think he went for the head at all.

darthgoober

Originally posted by darthgoober
In that case, Gorgon probably gets chopped into little bitty pieces.

capt it up

Originally posted by Jyppe
Wolverine is a moron, he didn't even try to cut off gorgon's limbs or head. I don't think he went for the head at all.
ya going to the heads real smart when it the hardest part of the body to hit and your fighting man who can move at the speed of thought or faster

Jyppe

Originally posted by capt it up
ya going to the heads real smart when it the hardest part of the body to hit and your fighting man who can move at the speed of thought or faster

Hardest part to hit? Not really no. Everytime Wolverine got a shot in Gorgon he could have hit his head instead. Of course it's not certain wether he would have hit him, but it's worth the shot. Especially when nothing else seemed to work. He didn't even try!

And where do they state that Gorgon's faster than a tought, 30 m/s?

Alfheim

Originally posted by jinzin

wolverine reacted to her just fine.. so did maxam.. neither are registered as superhuman in speed.. gorgon is..

I think that was before the upgrade. Maxam defintely was.

Originally posted by jinzin

would her dagger be coming faster than a bullet?

Probably.

Alfheim

Ok this is what I think. I have not seen the scans of the fight between Wolverine, Elektra and Gorgon. From what I have read Elektra was like a non factor and beaten very quickly, Wolverine then took him down himself.

So basically Gorgon can be beaten by Wolverine one on one.

Gamora has owned Ronan The Accuser and Terrax.

Wolverine has fought The Hulk but even then as far as I know he has never beaten The Hulk, apart from that how many other class 100ers has Wolverine beaten, as far as I know none.

Gamora has owned Ronan and Terrax.

Gamora beats Gorgon 8/10

LORDSIDIOUS01

Gamora

SpunkySmurph

Alfheim

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
yes

Cheers. Further point to add.....Terrax and Ronan are more than class 100 they are cosmics., (well I think both Ronan and Terrax have class 100 strength). Abomination is a class 100 character but I would not consider him cosmic. (When i say cosmic I mean Herald level characters).

If Wolverine fought Terrax and Ronan he would die period. He doesnt just have to contend with strength but energy powers and reflexes that are probably greater than The Hulks.

Im even thinking of giving it 10/10 to Gamora considering Wolverine beat Gorgon, implying that Gorgon isnt as good as Wolverine.

SpunkySmurph

Originally posted by Alfheim

Im even thinking of giving it 10/10 to Gamora considering Wolverine beat Gorgon, implying that Gorgon isnt as good as Wolverine.

Well, to be fair, Wolverine didn't demonstrate enough skill to put Gorgon down. Wolverine pulled the Medusa thing and reflected his stone-gaze back at him.

But, as we know, Wolverine and Gamora arn't exactly on the same skill level.

Alfheim

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Well, to be fair, Wolverine didn't demonstrate enough skill to put Gorgon down.

Yeah but from what I understand from the fight, Wolverine and Gorgon were having a pretty mean scrap. Ok Gorgon seemed to have been doing better but Wolverine was putting up a fight. So gorgon seems to be a level better than Wolverine but not by a huge margin.

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph

Wolverine pulled the Medusa thing and reflected his stone-gaze back at him.

Well this is the thing.....if this guy is so smart why couldnt he have anticpated that? Wolverine aint dumb but hes no genuis either

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph

But, as we know, Wolverine and Gamora arn't exactly on the same skill level.

You can say that again.

jinzin

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yes, and at the best of her ability, she'd be going for the kill with her dagger.

Smurf covered this here...

sigh... okay... do we assume that sasquatch is just going to go all taneraq on people in fights on the boards?

do we assume that thor is going to go warrior madness?

no.. why? cause it's not their typical style...

...and?... he did a poor job, his entire argument relies on giving her the benefit of the doubt.

darthgoober

Originally posted by jinzin
sigh... okay... do we assume that sasquatch is just going to go all taneraq on people in fights on the boards?

do we assume that thor is going to go warrior madness?

no.. why? cause it's not their typical style...

...and?... he did a poor job, his entire argument relies on giving her the benefit of the doubt.
No, we ASK to make sure. Just like I asked if she had the dagger, when the answer was no, I assumed it was h2h. But given the rules for standard equipment, she would at the very least have the dagger on her, in case she needed it. However this is really all moot, because the fact of the matter is that she's equipped with her sword for the purpose of this battle.

And I think he did a fine job of pointing out that with her skill, speed, and strength, the dagger would have a VERY good chance of hitting.

jinzin

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Well, for example, she threw Ronan a LONG way's, and then covered the distance before he even raised his head, and, when he did, before he could react, she charged him and sent his body flying high.

Scan's of deflecting each bullet? I'd like to judge for myself

That was pre-upgrade wink

I don't buy it. You have scans of someone saying this in application to the Gorgon scenerio?

venom has thrown a van accross an island with one hand.. doesn't make him class 100...
and her covering the distance was by way of hopping.. spiderman's done as much the same..

k, see this is why i asked about her upgrades.. what feats does she have to support that she's far better off now?
spiderman was upgraded not once, not twice, but thrice, still doesn't mean he can take cap in a straight h2h... by his own admission...

that's why i'm not arguing for him to be able to deflect it, I'm simply arguing that he has the reflexive ability to see it and react to it accordingly.

jinzin

Originally posted by Jyppe
Hardest part to hit? Not really no. Everytime Wolverine got a shot in Gorgon he could have hit his head instead. Of course it's not certain wether he would have hit him, but it's worth the shot. Especially when nothing else seemed to work. He didn't even try!

And where do they state that Gorgon's faster than a tought, 30 m/s?

yes, wolverine's cis was highly suspect in that fight.

darthgoober

Originally posted by jinzin
venom has thrown a van accross an island with one hand.. doesn't make him class 100...
and her covering the distance was by way of hopping.. spiderman's done as much the same..

k, see this is why i asked about her upgrades.. what feats does she have to support that she's far better off now?
spiderman was upgraded not once, not twice, but thrice, still doesn't mean he can take cap in a straight h2h... by his own admission...

that's why i'm not arguing for him to be able to deflect it, I'm simply arguing that he has the reflexive ability to see it and react to it accordingly.
Has Venom ever been labeled as having Ironman's level of strength by a UN specialist?(And that was before her upgrade).

And the effects of her upgrade where demonstrated when she stood toe to toe with Ronan. At the time, he had taken his "Universal Weapon" to a higher level than he ever had against Thor or Surfer.

SpunkySmurph

Originally posted by jinzin
sigh... okay... do we assume that sasquatch is just going to go all taneraq on people in fights on the boards?

do we assume that thor is going to go warrior madness?

no.. why? cause it's not their typical style...

...and?... he did a poor job, his entire argument relies on giving her the benefit of the doubt.

Well, if you want to play it that way, then she's not throwing blind anyways, which gives her a much better advantage.

After all, it's not Gorgon's usual style to turn every enemy he sees into stone. He only did it with Wolverine at the very end of the fight.

My argument used common sense. She's just as fast as him. She's stronger then him. She's more skilled then him. And, as you've successfully pointed out, she won't be throwing blind.

Take into account also that despite his TP advantage, the guy still go hit alot. Also, having never battled Gamora before, he has no idea that the Godslayer is as powerful as it is. He didn't mind getting hit in the face with rockets... I doubt he'll dodge for what he considers to be a plain dagger.

SpunkySmurph

I wouldn't tell you that hopping made her extremley fast. I WOULD tell you that covering at least twenty feet (probably more) and charging Ronan with enough speed to send him flying into the air ALL before he could react (it's not like he should have been dazed, he has superhuman durability) was pretty fast.

In addition, pre-upgrade she took down an entire army platoon, with an overwhelming amount of soldiers, as well as military vehicles like multiple tanks and such, in 8 minutes.

And that was BEFORE her 'cosmic makeover'

jinzin

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok this is what I think. I have not seen the scans of the fight between Wolverine, Elektra and Gorgon. From what I have read Elektra was like a non factor and beaten very quickly, Wolverine then took him down himself.

So basically Gorgon can be beaten by Wolverine one on one.

Gamora has owned Ronan The Accuser and Terrax.

Wolverine has fought The Hulk but even then as far as I know he has never beaten The Hulk, apart from that how many other class 100ers has Wolverine beaten, as far as I know none.

Gamora has owned Ronan and Terrax.

Gamora beats Gorgon 8/10

se this is exactly why you need to read the comics before commenting about them alfeim...

okay look, wolverine showed up with elektra, with level 5 sheild agents, and tons of backup.. he also blew the shit out of gorgon with two rockets that leveled his home before the fight started.. everyone that attacked him was ALSO wearing psy blockers to counter his TP, the only way wolverine won was by using gorgons stare against himself.. which is also highly suspect to cis.. so no wolverine can't take him 1 on 1... not by way of proof at least.

wolverine has dropped hulk in wolvie 145, he won through use of plot device in hulk 8, scored a one hit KO in incredible hulk 345, and fought him to a stalemate in incredible hulk 455.

wolverine has also taken down,

ba'al a mesopotamian demon-god (killed)
hercules (KOed)
kierrok an N'garai demon god who owned collosus. (killed and KOed)
abomination (KOed)
tiger shark (KOed)
namor (KOed)
numerous variants of wendigo (KOed)

other bricks he's taken it to include:
roughouse (KOed)
thing (KOed)
death's head II (win by decision, we would have killed death's head by death's head's own admission)
rogue (stalemate, while he was using fists only)
warpath (was winning by disicion before distraction)
brood enduced rogue (stalemating again, and holding back.. again)
Multitudes of 3rd generation sentinals (the kind that took it to colosus)

and owned?
no... us agent own ronin (apparently)...
she stalemated him... at best...

terrax... he wasn't even fighting at full capacity, he was outside his mind during that fight.. confused

jinzin

Originally posted by darthgoober
Has Venom ever been labeled as having Ironman's level of strength by a UN specialist?(And that was before her upgrade).

And the effects of her upgrade where demonstrated when she stood toe to toe with Ronan. At the time, he had taken his "Universal Weapon" to a higher level than he ever had against Thor or Surfer.

laughing out loud

because suddenly the UN know everything there is to know about super's right? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Again, she's showed what? decent strength levels, good durability, and good fighting skill....

anything about hightened speed in combat? no
anything about enhanced healing factor? nope...

jinzin

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Well, if you want to play it that way, then she's not throwing blind anyways, which gives her a much better advantage.

After all, it's not Gorgon's usual style to turn every enemy he sees into stone. He only did it with Wolverine at the very end of the fight.

My argument used common sense. She's just as fast as him. She's stronger then him. She's more skilled then him. And, as you've successfully pointed out, she won't be throwing blind.

Take into account also that despite his TP advantage, the guy still go hit alot. Also, having never battled Gamora before, he has no idea that the Godslayer is as powerful as it is. He didn't mind getting hit in the face with rockets... I doubt he'll dodge for what he considers to be a plain dagger.

actually he did it to two groups of shield soldiers AND wolverine.. so that's 75% of his fights that he uses it in...
so much for that theory...
and if she's not fighting blind then she's stone..

common sense? no.. benefit of the doubt is not common sense..

He didn't kow rockets were coming... psy blockers....

erm

jinzin

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
erm

5 tops.. not superspeed.

the army feat is a non feat.. 60 soldiers and a couple of tanks in 8 minutes is hardly impressive.

SpunkySmurph

Originally posted by jinzin
she wasn't CLOSE to 20 feet away... erm

5 tops.. not superspeed.

the army feat is a non feat.. 60 soldiers and a couple of tanks in 8 minutes is hardly impressive.

erm

I was reffering to the entire distance that she punched him

He has superhuman durability, and he only had time to raise his head and say a few words when she had already crossed that entire distance, and then hit him fast enough to send him flying.

But, looking back, your right, it's not twenty feet...

It's more like fifty. no expression

SpunkySmurph

Originally posted by jinzin

common sense? no.. benefit of the doubt is not common sense..

He didn't kow rockets were coming... psy blockers....

erm

Explain to me how that's benefit of the doubt... erm

darthgoober

Originally posted by jinzin
laughing out loud

because suddenly the UN know everything there is to know about super's right? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Again, she's showed what? decent strength levels, good durability, and good fighting skill....

anything about hightened speed in combat? no
anything about enhanced healing factor? nope...
A UN solder thats been to sent to take on a group of metahumans SHOULD have some understanding about the relative strength levels of superhumans in general, yes.

As much as you try to downplay the abilities of Gamora, the fact of the matter is that the Gorgon has done nothing to indicate that he's anywhere near her level. Where is your proof that he is?

SpunkySmurph

Originally posted by jinzin

anything about hightened speed in combat? no

Pre-upgrade, she fought alone in the middle a HUGE mob of brutal aliens (many of whom had guns). Meanwhile Thanos was shooting at her

And none of them could touch her...

In addition, she always has her long range beam-attack that she got post-upgrade. It made Ronan stumble backwards-it's definitley going to do some damage to Gorgon, stall him even for a second which is all she needs to use Godslayer

jinzin

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
erm

she jumped to his location after throwning him... a feat of strength? sure... speed? no...

when she began running to blitze him was 5 feet away.. no expression

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Explain to me how that's benefit of the doubt... erm

And it wasn't just the rockets, obviously. Wolverine's torn at him with the claws while they were fighting, and if he's as fast and as good as you claim, that really shouldn't have happen. He just didn't care very much. If it's a measly dagger, he's not going to move...

as i stated before him being struck is highly suspect...
however wolverine has level 9 psy blockers, he's also highly resistant to telepath's in fights anyway...

ex:mr x arch, the villian rapture, jean gray in the danger room... no expression

not to mention the fact that every time wolverine struck gorgon he got stuck with a blade in him, gorgon was bating him...

I mean common the guy wasn't even touched by elektra offensively, and he speedblitzed wolverine before wolverine could even get a lock on him...

He's fast enough to dodge, he's good enough to dodge (remember he trained blindfolded in sword play BEFORE he was ressurrected by the hand), and he has the TP for reassurance......

as for the ben of the doubt.... you're saying she's faster.. and she's better... it's most certainly the benefit of the doubt.. her feats of speed have been duplicated and replicated by every streeter and their grandma, her feats of skill are against opponents who don't even stack up to kitty pride in the fighting ability department...

before that you were implying she was going to win with kicks and punches when rockets don't work on him. that she would effect him with nerve strikes when he's an undead character.... and that she's herald level because she beat up terrax who wasn't in his right mind... BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT.

Originally posted by darthgoober
A UN solder thats been to sent to take on a group of metahumans SHOULD have some understanding about the relative strength levels of superhumans in general, yes.

As much as you try to downplay the abilities of Gamora, the fact of the matter is that the Gorgon has done nothing to indicate that he's anywhere near her level. Where is your proof that he is?

about as much as say... the marvel directory? cause we've seen how much they know.. roll eyes (sarcastic)

another argument for the benefit of the doubt....

He clobbered logan, a guy who's kept gamora at bay in battle....
he did it inspite of having his abilities negated, inspite of logan being upgraded by shield tech, in spite of logan showing up with multitudes of backup, in spite of them landing a sneak attack, and finally, IN SPITE of blasting him with 2 rockets.. no expression

gamora's been planted by maxam, a guy who stated he couldn't take herc in a straight fight, herc, who's lost to wolverine....

there's at least two semi decent reasons right there....

better then "gamora's herald level" at least.. pffft.

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Pre-upgrade, she fought alone in the middle a HUGE mob of brutal aliens (many of whom had guns). Meanwhile Thanos was shooting at her

And none of them could touch her...

In addition, she always has her long range beam-attack that she got post-upgrade. It made Ronan stumble backwards-it's definitley going to do some damage to Gorgon, stall him even for a second which is all she needs to use Godslayer

speedfeat? no...

elektra killed over 1000 ninjas without being touched, batman's fought mobs of mutants and the entire jla in gorilla form without being touched, cap stomped an attempted prison riot without being touched... no expression

superspeed?

and how do you know that's going to effect him?

darthgoober

Enough of all of this. All I'm doing is HEARING about Gorgon. Let's see some scans of his feats, and we'll see if it's as easy to nitpick them as some people are trying to do with Gamora's. Cause the only reasoning at this point as to why Gorgon should win, is that Gamora's feats aren't all they're cracked up to be. So someone show me what Gorgon's done, and we'll see if they compare.

jinzin

Originally posted by darthgoober
Enough of all of this. All I'm doing is HEARING about Gorgon. Let's see some scans of his feats, and we'll see if it's as easy to nitpick them as some people are trying to do with Gamora's. Cause the only reasoning at this point as to why Gorgon should win, is that Gamora's feats aren't all they're cracked up to be. So someone show me what Gorgon's done, and we'll see if they compare.

don't have a scanner..

(*stands on sidelines till further notice)

jinzin

Originally posted by darthgoober
Enough of all of this. All I'm doing is HEARING about Gorgon. Let's see some scans of his feats, and we'll see if it's as easy to nitpick them as some people are trying to do with Gamora's. Cause the only reasoning at this point as to why Gorgon should win, is that Gamora's feats aren't all they're cracked up to be. So someone show me what Gorgon's done, and we'll see if they compare.

also, i really don't think you're understanding here... gorgon doesn't have to be as good, strong or fast as her. he only needs to land one hit and the fights relatively in his advantage...

darthgoober

Originally posted by jinzin
also, i really don't think you're understanding here... gorgon doesn't have to be as good, strong or fast as her. he only needs to land one hit and the fights relatively in his advantage...
Except that the same goes the other way also. All she needs is one opening to slice him to pieces. And given her superior overall abilities, that opening should present itself without to much problem.

srankmissingnin

Originally posted by darthgoober
Except that the same goes the other way also. All she needs is one opening to slice him to pieces. And given her superior overall abilities, that opening should present itself without to much problem.

Gorgon is at massive advantage in that he can take Gamora's attack head on for the sole purposes of getting in side her guard and delivering his own. It is an almost unstoppable offence for people like Gorgon (or Wolverine and Deadpool), who can take potentially fatal wounds with out serious repercussions, and allows them to overcome faster and more skilled opponents. When you consider that Gorgon has demonstrated superior speed and coordination compared to Gamora that only heightens his edge.

darthgoober

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Gorgon is at massive advantage in that he can take Gamora's attack head on for the sole purposes of getting in side her guard and delivering his own. It is an almost unstoppable offence for people like Gorgon (or Wolverine and Deadpool), who can take potentially fatal wounds with out serious repercussions, and allows them to overcome faster and more skilled opponents. When you consider that Gorgon has deminstated superior speed and corrordination compared to Gamora that only heightens his edge.
Has he ever survived decapitation? Or has he ever demonstrated the ability to instantly regrow limbs when they've been severed?

srankmissingnin

Originally posted by darthgoober
Has he ever survived decapitation? Or has he ever demonstrated the ability to instantly regrow limbs when they've been severed?

Assuming his heals at a comparable rate to mid 90's Wolverine (whos healing factor was clocked at healing a bullet wound 1 milimeter behind the bullet) I imagine that if his arm/head was severed the wound would heal behind the path of the sword/dagger.

darthgoober

Originally posted by jinzin
don't have a scanner..

(*stands on sidelines till further notice)
So what issue did it happen in, I probably have it.

jinzin

Originally posted by darthgoober
Except that the same goes the other way also. All she needs is one opening to slice him to pieces. And given her superior overall abilities, that opening should present itself without to much problem.

slice him to pieces? elektra and wolverine failed to do so at the same time... but she's going to? What the f**k?

jinzin

Originally posted by darthgoober
So what issue did it happen in, I probably have it.

it's in the entire enemy of the state arch, if you have it then why do you need someone else to post scans? confused

the more I see from you darth, the more disengenuine you appear to be.

darthgoober

I hate debating by PM...

Originally posted by jinzin

how are they not actual reason? simply because they are not infavor of your character, doesn't mean they are not actual reasons, you've stated that taking out 60 men and a couple of tanks accross a couple hundred yards in eight minutes is a display of superspeed... it's not...

(moving faster then people can see, anticipate, or even comprehend... being fired at and grabbing a soldier to use as a sheild after being fired at but before the bullets even hit, moving so fast that one can block the exit of a bullet from the berral after the trigger's already been pulled and the hammers hit, dispatching of a skin tight body suit from an opponent so fast and so thorogh they don't even think they've been touched, slicing a gun in half spinning and elbowing someone in the face before the peice as even begun to drop)... all of thse are displays that are actually permisable as evidence that superspeed of sorts is a part of the character.. none of the character's that performed these feats have superspeed...
Speedblitzing a mid to high end herald level character IS an indication of superspeed.The gravity of the Kree homeworld is higher than that of Earth, so ALL Kree are superior to humans in strength/speed/endurance.

Originally posted by jinzin
see the thing is, every thing you've stated for her speed, someone else has done... someone at street level.. meaning: she doesn't have superspeed..
What street leveler, has ever blitzed a herald level character with super speed?

Originally posted by jinzin
the only evidence of her healing factor and how effecient it is comes from hyporbole...

unreasonable to assume any different.
So we no longer accept Wolverine's assessments of his abilities? Ok...

Originally posted by jinzin
and no wolverine does not have superspeed comparatively... that's been my point..
Wait, did you just say that Wolverine DOESN'T have superspeed?

Originally posted by jinzin
and again are you honestly implying that wolverine's damage from earlier had no effect on his ability to take damage later on?
Given the amount of time that had passed, I think it's safe to assume the BLUDGEONING damage (which Wolverine fans like to say heals practically instantly) was healed, yes.

Originally posted by jinzin
thing is wolverine's taken a shot to the stomach from silver samurai and punched him in the gut for it, samurai stabbed him in the stomach again and wolverine lopped off his hand, wolverine was stabbed in the stomach by a spear and just stood there having a conversation and pulled it back out in the savage land, he's taken multiple stone spikes through his back and just stood there growling, he's had a man put a lady deathstrike sized hand through his stomach entirely and just cut it off while talking, he's taken automatic gunfire and mechete blows from 100 pirates, he took automatic gunfire from 100 well armed yakuza, he's had all his organs smashed to jelly by a hulk punched and healed them before hulk could land the next punch, he's had his entire lower torso blown away to a skeleton and stayed concious, his entire face blown literally off, and kept fighting... )
CLEARLY his HF supercedes her's by a fairly enormous amount, and considering the examples, clearly wolverine was mistaken in his hyperbole...
So once again your saying that Wolverine isn't the proper person to gauge his abilities. Well that's good, because there's plenty that he's said about himself that I find suspect. It's nice to know that you won't be using anymore of his statements on Wolverine threads.

darthgoober

Originally posted by jinzin
it's in the entire enemy of the state arch, if you have it then why do you need someone else to post scans? confused

the more I see from you darth, the more disengenuine you appear to be.
Well the thing is, I have over 100 gigs worth of comics, and I really haven't read most of them, I just reference them when it's needed. Anyway, I'll check and see if I have those...

srankmissingnin

Gamora gets stabbed in the chest? She goes down. Wolverine gets stabbed in the heart? His guard is down for half a second and Lady Deathstrike lands a fallow up attack. Wolverine wasn't even down as long as Gamora when his heart exploded. There is nothing to suggest that Gamora heals anywhere near as fast as Wolverine. All there is a throw away comment Wolverine made on her abilities. Daredevil has said that Wolverine's senses are supperior to his, no one buys that... but we are supposed to in this case because why?

capt it up

also gamora has no heal feats that put her even close to logans

darthgoober

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Gamora gets stabbed in the chest? She goes down. Wolverine gets stabbed in the heart? His guard is down for half a second and Lady Deathstrike lands a fallow up attack. Wolverine wasn't even down as long as Gamora when his heart exploded. There is nothing to suggest that Gamora heals anywhere near as fast as Wolverine. All there is a throw away comment Wolverine made on her abilities. Daredevil has said that Wolverine's senses are supperior to his, no one buys that... but we are supposed to in this case because why?
Unless I'm mistaken, Daredevil only said that Wolverine's sense of smell was better than his, which I personally find believable. But as I said before, if the consensus is that Wolverine isn't an accurate gauge of his abilities, that cool cause I've heard of him saying plenty of things about himself that I disagree with.

jinzin

oh for the love of....

Originally posted by darthgoober
Speedblitzing a mid to high end herald level character IS an indication of superspeed.The gravity of the Kree homeworld is higher than that of Earth, so ALL Kree are superior to humans in strength/speed/endurance.

spiderman's blitzed firelord, thor, silver surfer.. he's got superspeed?
(well kinda but against other high class streeters are comparible)

hell black night's blitzed firelord..

Originally posted by darthgoober
What street leveler, has ever blitzed a herald level character with super speed?
since when does ronin have superspeed?

and again.. spiderman... no expression

black night..

(i may be mistaken but i believe nightcrawler has as well)

Originally posted by darthgoober
So we no longer accept Wolverine's assessments of his abilities? Ok...

it wasn't an assessment of his ability, it was an assessment of her's and it was innacurate considering the fact that he wasnOriginally posted by darthgoober
Wait, did you just say that Wolverine DOESN'T have superspeed?

again superspeed's relative.. to people like me and you, hell kitty pride has super speed....
relative to the comic universe?
no.. he's inhumanly fast.. but that's it.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Given the amount of time that had passed, I think it's safe to assume the BLUDGEONING damage (which Wolverine fans like to say heals practically instantly) was healed, yes.

my god what don't you understand about this...?
it's like when cassandra nove burt his arm off, yes the arm healed, but it still felt like it was on fire, later on, it still hurt wolverine, it still effected him...

the more punishment wolverine takes the easier he becomes to take down... he has a healing factor but it takes it's toll on him... he needs rest and nutrients to properly replace what was damaged and get "caught up"...

Originally posted by darthgoober
So once again your saying that Wolverine isn't the proper person to gauge his abilities. Well that's good, because there's plenty that he's said about himself that I find suspect. It's nice to know that you won't be using anymore of his statements on Wolverine threads.

no, you're reading incorrectly again.. I'm saying that wolverine's not the proper person to make an assumption about SOMEONE ELSES power when he wasn't even awake to see it working...
nice try though wink

capt it up

Originally posted by darthgoober
Unless I'm mistaken, Daredevil only said that Wolverine's sense of smell was better than his, which I personally find believable. But as I said before, if the consensus is that Wolverine isn't an accurate gauge of his abilities, that cool cause I've heard of him saying plenty of things about himself that I disagree with.
the fact is even if he was accurate that was before two major healing factor up grades meaning she heals many times slower then he does

jinzin

Originally posted by capt it up
the fact is even if he was accurate that was before two major healing factor up grades menaign she heals many times slower then he does

there's my boy!

and considering that it's NOT accurate.. i guess she heals many MANY times slower eh? wink

capt it up

Originally posted by jinzin
there's my boy!

and considering that it's NOT accurate.. i guess she heals many MANY times slower eh? wink

yup lol

srankmissingnin

Wolverine once said that Yukio was one of the best fighters on the planet (he may have even said, second only to him but I forget)... and we all know that she isn't. More likely Wolverine just pays fruitless comments to women... how else to you think he gets laid so much?

jinzin

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wolverine once said that Yuriko was one of the best fighters on the planet (he may have even said, second only to him but I forget)... and we all know that she isn't. More likely Wolverine just pays fruitless comments to women... how else to you think he gets laid so much?

laughing out loud

he also said that his neck could be broken.. what a silly guy..

darthgoober

Originally posted by jinzin
spiderman's blitzed firelord, thor, silver surfer.. he's got superspeed?
(well kinda but against other high class streeters are comparible)
And unless I'm mistaken, those showings aren't allowed around here. In fact, don't we have a specific rule about that?

Originally posted by jinzin
hell black night's blitzed firelord..
Even worse than the Spidey example.

Originally posted by jinzin
since when does ronin have superspeed?

and again.. spiderman... no expression

black night..

(i may be mistaken but i believe nightcrawler has as well)
Again, not allowed.

Originally posted by jinzin
it wasn't an assessment of his ability, it was an assessment of hers and it was innacurate considering the fact that he wasn
No it was him assessing hers as compared to his. And he was awake quickly enough to see how fast she healed from the damage in comparison to him...

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5585/possiblehealingfactor4se6.th.jpg

Originally posted by jinzin
again superspeed's relative.. to people like me and you, hell kitty pride has super speed....
relative to the comic universe?
no.. he's inhumanly fast.. but that's it.
And being inhumanly fast means that he possesses superhuman speed in comparison to humans(which is what we typically guage such a thing by. So he has super speed.

Originally posted by jinzin
my god what don't you understand about this...?
it's like when cassandra nove burt his arm off, yes the arm healed, but it still felt like it was on fire, later on, it still hurt wolverine, it still effected him...

the more punishment wolverine takes the easier he becomes to take down... he has a healing factor but it takes it's toll on him... he needs rest and nutrients to properly replace what was damaged and get "caught up"...
So that means that Spidey should be fully capable of overloading his healing factor correct?

Originally posted by jinzin
no, you're reading incorrectly again.. I'm saying that wolverine's not the proper person to make an assumption about SOMEONE ELSES power when he was even awake to see it working...
nice try though wink

He was awake to inflict the damage, and he was awake to see her get up. That's plenty of info for anyone with half a brain.

Anyway, apparently I don't have the Enemy of the State arc, so would someone who does be so knid as to post Gorgon's feats?

darthgoober

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wolverine once said that Yukio was one of the best fighters on the planet (he may have even said, second only to him but I forget)... and we all know that she isn't. More likely Wolverine just pays fruitless comments to women... how else to you think he gets laid so much?
Originally posted by jinzin
laughing out loud

he also said that his neck could be broken.. what a silly guy..
And remember the time he said that he sees bullets in slow motion? laughing out loud

capt it up

Originally posted by darthgoober
And remember the time he said that he sees bullets in slow motion? laughing out loud

he not the only one who said it the doctor did as well. so nice try. also it was a stated fact by the narrator not wolverine him self

darthgoober

Originally posted by capt it up
he not the only one who said it the doctor did as well. so nice try. also ti was a stated fatc by the narrator not wolverine him self
But everyone has been saying that another person can't be counted on to accurately gauge the abilities of another person. And she was actually SHOWN to recover at about the same speed as him.

jinzin

Originally posted by darthgoober
And unless I'm mistaken, those showings aren't allowed around here. In fact, don't we have a specific rule about that?
Even worse than the Spidey example.
Again, not allowed.

"i dont't like it, it must be PIS!" ;rolleyes: weak..

Originally posted by darthgoober
No it was him assessing hers as compared to his. And he was awake quickly enough to see how fast she healed from the damage in comparison to him....

it was a comparison he made about something he WASN'T CONCIOUS TO SEE, how would he know how fast it worked?

Originally posted by darthgoober
And being inhumanly fast means that he possesses superhuman speed in comparison to humans(which is what we typically guage such a thing by. So he has super speed.

superhuman speed and super speed are two different categories..

but i digress.. look if your feats of her being a super speedster are those two things then they are suspect to what all street levels can do, gorgon proved to be faster than 2 very high class streeters... is it beginning to make sense now?

Originally posted by darthgoober
So that means that Spidey should be fully capable of overloading his healing factor correct?

eventually.. i mean.. if wolverine just sits there, and spiderman gets breaks and food, and rest.. sure...

Originally posted by darthgoober
He was awake to inflict the damage, and he was awake to see her get up. That's plenty of info for anyone with half a brain.

when your knocked unconcious you don't even know how long you've been out... anyone with an omnipotent brain perhaps..

anyone with a normal brain? probably not..

again you're ignoring he wasn't awake to see it..

jinzin

Originally posted by darthgoober
And remember the time he said that he sees bullets in slow motion? laughing out loud

THAT.. was a narrative caption... no expression

I'm really REALLY struggling not to make fun of you right now...

capt it up

Originally posted by darthgoober
But everyone has been saying that another person can't be counted on to accurately gauge the abilities of another person. And she was actually SHOWN to recover at about the same speed as him.
yes,but the other person is a freak expspert on wolverine and has study him repeatedly not to mention he had equiptment that moderated every thing wolverine did. Not to mention the narrator stated it as well and the narrator is not a character, but the voice of marvel them selfs.

Soljer

Originally posted by jinzin
THAT.. was a narrative caption... no expression

I'm really REALLY struggling not to make fun of you right now...

From what comic? Every time Capt refrences it, he claims its source as a novel.

erm

darthgoober

Originally posted by jinzin
"i dont't like it, it must be PIS!" ;rolleyes: weak..
No it's more long the lines of "It's so much BS they made a rule to cover it".

Originally posted by jinzin
it was a comparison he made about something he WASN'T CONCIOUS TO SEE, how would he know how fast it worked?
He knew that she healed in about the same time he did.

Originally posted by jinzin
"superhuman speed and super speed are two different categories..

but i digress.. look if your feats of her being a super speedster are those two things then they are suspect to what all street levels can do, gorgon proved to be faster than 2 very high class streeters... is it beginning to make sense now?
Show me an example of a streetlevel blitzing Ronan.

Originally posted by jinzin
"eventually.. i mean.. if wolverine just sits there, and spiderman gets breaks and food, and rest.. sure...
Hey, since your so keen on SMvF, then Spidey punching like that should take him out in under a minute.

Originally posted by jinzin
"when your knocked unconcious you don't even know how long you've been out... anyone with an omnipotent brain perhaps..

anyone with a normal brain? probably not..

again you're ignoring he wasn't awake to see it..
He know it took her as much time to heal as him, so he was pretty well informed.

And again, we're getting hung up on HER feats. Let's get some detail on Gorgons.