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Originally posted by MightyEInherjar
Coming from an entire family of Germanic Heathens, I respect what you're doing, but I don't really think people are going to understand what you're trying to get across.


The point im trying to make is that Marvel have done an accurate creation of Thor.

They really dumbed thor down for comics.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
They really dumbed thor down for comics.

Basically yeah. I could have wriiten more but it would have taken me ages. An accurate representation of Thor would make him as powerful as Odin and just as smart.

Originally posted by Alfheim
An accurate representation of Thor would make him as powerful as Odin and just as smart.
That's the problem: someone with so much power and smarts = someone tough to write 40+ years of stories about. PIS would be rampant; you'd have the equivalent of pre-crisis Superman on your hands. Quite possibly (and no offense meant), Stan and Jack couldn't handle that, or, they felt their readership at that time wouldn't.

Originally posted by Mindship
That's the problem: someone with so much power and smarts = someone tough to write 40+ years of stories about. PIS would be rampant; you'd have the equivalent of pre-crisis Superman on your hands. Quite possibly (and no offense meant), Stan and Jack couldn't handle that, or, they felt their readership at that time wouldn't.

How dare you, dont blaspheme!!! j/k Well yeah I understand what your saying, Odin does not have his own comic because he is too powerful. At the end of the day I still think they should have done a better job. They could have made Thor more powerful and turned somebody like Sigurd into the Marvel hero.

Even if they didnt want to make him as powerful as Odin there are so many aspects to Thors character that they got wrong.

Spectre has his own comic and he's stronger than Odin.

Originally posted by Mindship
That's the problem: someone with so much power and smarts = someone tough to write 40+ years of stories about. PIS would be rampant; you'd have the equivalent of pre-crisis Superman on your hands. Quite possibly (and no offense meant), Stan and Jack couldn't handle that, or, they felt their readership at that time wouldn't.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Spectre has his own comic and he's stronger than Odin.

....ermmmm..yeah...well there you go then.

theres already a thor respect thread.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Basically yeah. I could have wriiten more but it would have taken me ages. An accurate representation of Thor would make him as powerful as Odin and just as smart.

Not quite

Odin in Norse mythology was nigh omniscient and by nothing but decree made it impossible to kill anyone is Asgard (until he broke the rule on his own to kill the witch)

Thor in mythology tottaly obliterates comics Thor. Escpeccialy when you consider their enemies and feats.

Originally posted by xmeat
theres already a thor respect thread.

This is a thread for Thor from Norse mythology (or Norse Paganism I'm not sure)

She-Hulk said WHAT?

Meh your right about Thor and Odin. Odin was never way stronger than Thor but as for his intelligence I think Marvel did a good job of it.

Thor while he wasn't stupid he was exactly what he was meant to be a powerhouse. He was brash relied heavely on his strength and does much boasting abot previous feats kind of like the comic Thor.

His intelligence was normal. For one he was tricked by the giants on more than one occassion especially when he went and did his contests against them.

I'm not saying he was stupid but he wasn't very intelligent, average but pretty battle savvy. He could he clever sometimes but it was often with help for just a brief moment.

The way it always has been in Norse Mythos is that Odin= Wisdom Thor=Power while they aren't completely lacking in the other areas they aren't super in the others.

Thor's intelligence wasn't that good.

yes

Thor's intelect was basicly orianted to fighting (which he was very good at). He did have the unfortunate tendency to get tricked though.

I still think Odin was more powerful than Thor.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos


Odin in Norse mythology was nigh omniscient and by nothing but decree made it impossible to kill anyone is Asgard (until he broke the rule on his own to kill the witch)

I dont even understand this

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos

Thor in mythology tottaly obliterates comics Thor. Escpeccialy when you consider their enemies and feats.

I agree.

Originally posted by Newjak
Meh your right about Thor and Odin. Odin was never way stronger than Thor but as for his intelligence I think Marvel did a good job of it.

Thor while he wasn't stupid he was exactly what he was meant to be a powerhouse. He was brash relied heavely on his strength and does much boasting abot previous feats kind of like the comic Thor.

His intelligence was normal. For one he was tricked by the giants on more than one occassion especially when he went and did his contests against them.

I'm not saying he was stupid but he wasn't very intelligent, average but pretty battle savvy. He could he clever sometimes but it was often with help for just a brief moment.

The way it always has been in Norse Mythos is that Odin= Wisdom Thor=Power while they aren't completely lacking in the other areas they aren't super in the others.

Thor's intelligence wasn't that good.

Newjak you have offended me. Do you know why? You dont know what your talking about and further more it shows you didnt even bother to read what I wrote about Thor or you would have not made that statement.



Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
yes

Thor's intelect was basicly orianted to fighting (which he was very good at). He did have the unfortunate tendency to get tricked though.

I still think Odin was more powerful than Thor.

You dont know what your talking about either. Whats the point? I went to the bother of writing that post so you could ignore it and make offensive statements.

Originally posted by Alfheim

Also one of Thor's names is The Deep Thinker. Thor was also the patron god of law.



Look at the above, this is just a fraction of what I wrote, that proves you dont know what you're talking about, but you completely missed it. Does that sound like somebody whos not highly intelligent.

Furthermore Thor used to be The All-Father of the gods before Odin was.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Spectre has his own comic and he's stronger than Odin.
Well, that's DC, c'mon. They've had practice with pre-crisis Supes.

Curious: what kind of "adventures" / tasks do they write for the Spectre?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Newjak you have offended me. Do you know why? You dont know what your talking about and further more it shows you didnt even bother to read what I wrote about Thor or you would have not made that statement. I read everything you said and it doesn't change the fact that Thor is no genius even in Norse Mythology. He was tricked many times and known more for battles and bravado then anything else.

Kind of like how he is in Marvel comics.

He was battle savvy which is fine but don't go talking about how he is super smart he wasn't. He was a battle hardened warrior that boasted much of what he could do. He did it when he faced off against the giants, he did at the river crossing with Odin, and he did it in the halls of Valhalla.

You decided to name a few chioce moments where he could be looked at as extremely clever and most of them aren't even that good.

Like when he countered Odin's decleration on the hero. All he did was say the exact opposite of what Odin did.

Odin: I will make him well liked by nobles
Thor: Well he won't be liked by the common folk

Odin: I will make him live three times as long
Thor: Well he will do something bad in each one

Odin: He will never loose a battle
Thor: But he will be injured in each one

Honestly that wasn't very clever at all. By the way tell them why THor was even angry to begin with the Hero Odin wanted to glorify. Thor was mad because theHero's his mother chose to a giant to wed over Thor so he was mad with envy that he wasn't chosen.

Thor was of average intelligence throughout the Mythos. Yes he had his moments but he wasn't overtly smart.

Originally posted by Newjak
I read everything you said

No you didnt read it properly

Originally posted by Newjak

and it doesn't change the fact that Thor is no genius even in Norse Mythology.

So why is he called The Deep thinker?
Why is the patron god of law?
Why was he able to trick a dwarf and if you look at the poem Thor asks him a load of questions. Do you know how intelligent dwarves are?
Why was he the only one able to catch Loki, are you aware they were all looking for Loki?


Originally posted by Newjak

He was tricked many times and known more for battles and bravado then anything else.

No he was not just know for that:

As I mentioned he was the patron god of law, do you know what that means. So your telling me the law is not an intellectual subject?

He is the patron god of marriage. Yeah marriage is all about war.

Thor controls the weather and he is a fertility god. Farmers were dedicated to Thor. farming does not involve fighting.

Thor was called upon to hallow the runes.

Some witches were dedicated to Thor which means Thor was a god of magic as well.

Thor used to be the All-Father before Odin was.

The most complicated poetry was dedicated to Thor. So why was this the case?

Again one of Thors names is the.... DEEP THINKER To say that he was of average of intelligence and he was just known for his battles is incorrect. Especially with a name like that.

Originally posted by Newjak

Kind of like how he is in Marvel comics.

No not at all. Your just taking your limited knowldege of Thor and stereotyping him.

Originally posted by Newjak

He was battle savvy which is fine but don't go talking about how he is super smart he wasn't. He was a battle hardened warrior that boasted much of what he could do. He did it when he faced off against the giants, he did at the river crossing with Odin, and he did it in the halls of Valhalla.


I have already explained.

Originally posted by Newjak

You decided to name a few chioce moments where he could be looked at as extremely clever and most of them aren't even that good.

Yes they are you obvoulsy missed my points.

Originally posted by Newjak

Like when he countered Odin's decleration on the hero. All he did was say the exact opposite of what Odin did.

Odin: I will make him well liked by nobles
Thor: Well he won't be liked by the common folk

Odin: I will make him live three times as long
Thor: Well he will do something bad in each one

Odin: He will never loose a battle
Thor: But he will be injured in each one

I hate to break this to you but when it come to intepreting myths your not supposed to take them literialy. Sure they had a word battle but their gods the stories are supposed to be metaphors for what actually happened. They had a word battle but it was more complicated than just saying the opposite of what he said. For example the descritptions of the gods are not to be taken literially they are just supposed to help us understand them. Thor is not a white guy with a red beard, Thor takes the form of a white guy with a red beard, but his appearance is supposed to give us an idea of what he represents.



Originally posted by Newjak

By the way tell them why THor was even angry to begin with the Hero Odin wanted to glorify. Thor was mad because theHero's his mother chose to a giant to wed over Thor so he was mad with envy that he wasn't chosen.

Yeah and Odin raped a woman in heathen lore.....and? Thats the only time in the whole of heathen lore where Thor acts like a git. Bare in mind that the gods sometimes reflect human behaviour, so obvoulsy im only going to take those positive aspects.

Originally posted by Newjak

Thor was of average intelligence throughout the Mythos. Yes he had his moments but he wasn't overtly smart.

No he was not I explained already.

Originally posted by Newjak
He was tricked many times

Name the examples of when he was tricked. I know the examples you are going to give and when you do im going to blast you for not reading my post.

Originally posted by Newjak


His intelligence was normal. For one he was tricked by the giants on more than one occassion especially when he went and did his contests against them.



Furthermore I already explained this point....I even put some sections of my writing in bold for you to read, and you still brought that point up.

Wow your taking this a little wow....

Anyways as for Thor being the Patron of Law think of the time Law wasn't really based on as many terms as it is now. Back then law was simple you break it your in trouble and much be punished by power which is what Thor reperesented.

Face it simple law for a simple god

Thor for what your saying was mainly a War God as that is what he often talks about and what he often is known for. Honestly he known more fighting giants then anything else because it is his biggest trait.

And by the wya your not really countering anything I said. I never said Thor was stupid just not really smart. He is average in that department like he has been shown numerous times to be. Taking a few choice moments doesn't change that.

Originally posted by Newjak
Wow your taking this a little wow....

Ermm did you know that this is my religon?

Originally posted by Newjak

Anyways as for Thor being the Patron of Law think of the time Law wasn't really based on as many terms as it is now. Back then law was simple you break it your in trouble and much be punished by power which is what Thor reperesented.

Face it simple law for a simple god

To be quite honest I doubt it. The law would not just involve punishing people there would be other aspects as well. Marriage, inheritance, trading etc. People would meet and discus things they had their own courts and democratic system, so no it wasn't simple. The only thing is that it would probably be less complicated because their were fewer people.


Originally posted by Newjak

Thor for what your saying was mainly a War God as that is what he often talks about and what he often is known for.

Thats not what im saying. Thor was called upon in battle but he has other aspects that were just as important as fighting. As I mentioned already..he was the patron god of law, marriage, fertility....poetry.


Originally posted by Newjak

Honestly he known more fighting giants then anything else because it is his biggest trait.

Well ok he is known more for killing giants but this does not mean he does not have other aspects that were just as important. You have to bear in mind some of the stories are lost. As I mentioned before the norse used to call him the Deep Thinker, obvoulsy there were probably lots of stories of him using his brain but mainly the ones that survived are of him using brute force.

Originally posted by Newjak

And by the wya your not really countering anything I said. I never said Thor was stupid just not really smart. He is average in that department like he has been shown numerous times to be. Taking a few choice moments doesn't change that.

Yes I am countering what you said, I am saying that Thor is highly intelligent.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ermm did you know that this is my religon?



To be quite honest I doubt it. The law would not just involve punishing people there would be other aspects as well. Marriage, inheritance, trading etc. People would meet and discus things they had their own courts and democratic system, so no it wasn't simple. The only thing is that it would probably be less complicated because their were fewer people.




Thats not what im saying. Thor was called upon in battle but he has other aspects that were just as important as fighting. As I mentioned already..he was the patron god of law, marriage, fertility....poetry.




Well ok he is known more for killing giants but this does not mean he does not have other aspects that were just as important. You have to bear in mind some of the stories are lost. As I mentioned before the norse used to call him the Deep Thinker, obvoulsy there were probably lots of stories of him using his brain but mainly the ones that survived are of him using brute force.



Yes I am countering what you said, I am saying that Thor is highly intelligent. I know it is that is why I know this thread probably means alot to you and kept myself from saying other things like your taking thsi a little to far to prove a point.

Now as for the Law yes it was a simple lay back then. THe strongest made the laws and carried them out. Stuff like Marriage and other things were barely what they are today. Basically if you got together you got together.

He was other things besides a war God but none of that actually points to him being truely super intelligent.

You chose to bring up a few chpice moments that actually take him out of his normal character where he did some things that are kind of clever but nothing that is that remarkable. He tricked a Dwarf once found Loki once. He has been tricked more times than that. He has been bested in a battle of words more times then that. And at the end of the Day he is and always has been a fighter and a symbol of raw power to the Norse Mythology.

And now your trying to tell me he may have been smarter in stories that may have been lost over time. You have no proof of that since all we have is what we got and the fact is he is tricked more times then not. He shown to be of average intelligence for a God, and he is first and for most a warrior of honor which explains him being a patron of law more then anything that has to do with his brain power.

So Thor not stupid, pretty clever in battle some times, but by no means a true intellectual power.

Originally posted by Newjak
I know it is that is why I know this thread probably means alot to you and kept myself from saying other things like your taking thsi a little to far to prove a point.

No you havent proven anything so far.

Originally posted by Newjak

Now as for the Law yes it was a simple lay back then.

How do you know that?

Originally posted by Newjak

THe strongest made the laws and carried them out. Stuff like Marriage and other things were barely what they are today. Basically if you got together you got together.

You are making assumptions. Marriage was not that simple because there was divorce and a women could keep her property after getting married. They had their own democratic system where they would discuss. They traded, they built houses all these things need laws.

Originally posted by Newjak

He was other things besides a war God but none of that actually points to him being truely super intelligent.

He...was.....called.....The.....Deep.....Thinker.

Originally posted by Newjak

You chose to bring up a few chpice moments that actually take him out of his normal character where he did some things that are kind of clever but nothing that is that remarkable. He tricked a Dwarf once

Didnt I explain to you how intelligent dwarves are?

Originally posted by Newjak

found Loki once.

So he tricked a highly intellignet dwarf and found a highly intellignet god = two incidences of him being highly smart.

Originally posted by Newjak

He has been tricked more times than that.

Give me examples. I can give you two examples of Odin being tricked, I can give you three examples of Loki being tricked.

Originally posted by Newjak

He has been bested in a battle of words more times then that.

Give me examples.

Originally posted by Newjak

And at the end of the Day he is and always has been a fighter and a symbol of raw power to the Norse Mythology.

Your just wasting my time.

Originally posted by Newjak

And now your trying to tell me he may have been smarter in stories that may have been lost over time.

Well considering the fact that lots of information about Norse mythology has been lost and Thor is called....the.....deep...thinker....that is a logical conclusion.


Originally posted by Newjak

You have no proof of that since all we have is what we got and the fact is he is tricked more times then not.

Stop wasting my time and give me examples. I haven't even given you all the examples of him using his head.

Originally posted by Newjak

He shown to be of average intelligence for a God, and he is first and for most a warrior of honor which explains him being a patron of law more then anything that has to do with his brain power.

Complete waste of time.

Originally posted by Newjak

So Thor not stupid, pretty clever in battle some times, but by no means a true intellectual power.

Complete waste of time.

You guys have to also remember that most actual pagan deities had hundreds of stories about them, and generally the "canon" of their myth is disputed. What may have been true of Thor in some stories (intelligence, for example, to make this pertinent to the discussion) may be totally false in another story.

The largely oral tradition of the myths, added to the sheer volume, means that many gods have even more incarnations, variances in power levels, and ambiguity than even their comic-book counterparts.

So, not to be disrespectful, but I think your guys argument here will turn out rather fruitless.

...on a side note, this technically isn't comics, but I'm intrigued so I'll allow it. It can't become a trend, but 1 is ok.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
You guys have to also remember that most actual pagan deities had hundreds of stories about them, and generally the "canon" of their myth is disputed. What may have been true of Thor in some stories (intelligence, for example, to make this pertinent to the discussion) may be totally false in another story.


Yes that is true, but if you compile all the information on Thor one of his aspects is that he was highly intelligent. Were not talking about the Germanic period this is The Viking era, so in general his descriptions would have been consistent.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

The largely oral tradition of the myths, added to the sheer volume, means that many gods have even more incarnations, variances in power levels, and ambiguity than even their comic-book counterparts.

What I said above.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

So, not to be disrespectful, but I think your guys argument here will turn out rather fruitless.

Newjak is wasting my time and I dont know why im bothering.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

...on a side note, this technically isn't comics, but I'm intrigued so I'll allow it. It can't become a trend, but 1 is ok.


P.S. Newjak you missed the example of Thor tricking the giant..you forgot that as well.

Well still related but I see what you mean.

Originally posted by Alfheim
You dont know what your talking about either. Whats the point? I went to the bother of writing that post so you could ignore it and make offensive statements.

I'm sorry if I offended you.

I did not ignore your post I merely disagreed with your analysis of Thor's feats.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
...on a side note, this technically isn't comics, but I'm intrigued so I'll allow it. It can't become a trend, but 1 is ok.

Storm wouldn't allow it on the religion forum though

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I'm sorry if I offended you.

I did not ignore your post I merely disagreed with your analysis of Thor's feats.



Yes but I dont understand how you came to that conclusion, when I have gone into detail.

Originally posted by Alfheim
No you didnt read it properly



So why is he called The Deep thinker?
Why is the patron god of law?
Why was he able to trick a dwarf and if you look at the poem Thor asks him a load of questions. Do you know how intelligent dwarves are?
Why was he the only one able to catch Loki, are you aware they were all looking for Loki?




No he was not just know for that:

As I mentioned he was the patron god of law, do you know what that means. So your telling me the law is not an intellectual subject?

He is the patron god of marriage. Yeah marriage is all about war.

Thor controls the weather and he is a fertility god. Farmers were dedicated to Thor. farming does not involve fighting.

Thor was called upon to hallow the runes.

Some witches were dedicated to Thor which means Thor was a god of magic as well.

Thor used to be the All-Father before Odin was.

The most complicated poetry was dedicated to Thor. So why was this the case?

Again one of Thors names is the.... DEEP THINKER To say that he was of average of intelligence and he was just known for his battles is incorrect. Especially with a name like that.



No not at all. Your just taking your limited knowldege of Thor and stereotyping him.




I have already explained.



Yes they are you obvoulsy missed my points.



I hate to break this to you but when it come to intepreting myths your not supposed to take them literialy. Sure they had a word battle but their gods the stories are supposed to be metaphors for what actually happened. They had a word battle but it was more complicated than just saying the opposite of what he said. For example the descritptions of the gods are not to be taken literially they are just supposed to help us understand them. Thor is not a white guy with a red beard, Thor takes the form of a white guy with a red beard, but his appearance is supposed to give us an idea of what he represents.





Yeah and Odin raped a woman in heathen lore.....and? Thats the only time in the whole of heathen lore where Thor acts like a git. Bare in mind that the gods sometimes reflect human behaviour, so obvoulsy im only going to take those positive aspects.



No he was not I explained already.



Name the examples of when he was tricked. I know the examples you are going to give and when you do im going to blast you for not reading my post. Ok let me keep this as simple as possible to let you know what is going on here.

Thor was average in intelligence always has been. He has had moments yes but nothing to begin to proclaim the level of intelligence you want.

Your claiming titles as proof. And yes back then Law was of the strongest arm had the right of the law. They had some democtratic abilties and some other stuff but in the end law was of the strength of someone.

That is why confronting men often ended arguements over battles which is befitting Thor a known War God.

You keep talking about this title of Deep Thinker like it is be all end all of the discussion.

Anyways back to topic. He tricked Dwarf by asking him many questions all of which the Dwarf knew the answer to. Clever maybe but to say that makes him a super gneious no.

For him finding Loki I will admit my memory on his catpure pf Loki is hazy but I my memory does try to sya that Loki turned into a snake and hide in either a small cavern or a river for some time. It was only through constant looking they were able to find Loki. Nothing really clever going on since Loki has tricked Thor more times then anyone can remember.

As for the Giant scenario I don't even bother to actually count that as for the fact that your forgetting to mention that it wasn't even Thor that came up with the idea to begin with

Once again you have no proof of anything to say his intellgence wasn't completely similir. Was he dumb no but often you are forgetting to mention that Thor has been tricked a few more timez by the like sof Loki Giants, and Odin himself and in fact in his meeting with Odin at the River Crossing the stories make huge mention that it was an ulitmate symbol of Odin's knowledge against Thor's overall power it sepcificly mentions that. Meaning that Thor's knowledge simply wasn't that good.

Also let's not forget that Thor also get alot of help for his plans from outside sources. Take into account his battle where an assocaite of his actually tells the gaint to place his shield beneath his feet so that Thor get s free hit.

Also take into account that after that fight Thor manages to get himself cuahgt undernaeth the Giants leg not to smart there was it. In fact his son has to come and lift the leg off his father.


Face it for everything Thor was he wasn't the wisest they make much mention of this as his father and even Loki show to be better thinkers then the "Deep Thinker"

It is often Thor's brute strength that lead him into victory not his intellgence. He gets alot of help from fellow people when it comes to planning as shown before.

And Thor when he was in the realm of giants doing impossible tasks never was able to outthink them.

So once again Thor not a super thinker intellectual

Ok im going to try one more time..

Originally posted by Alfheim
Your a complete waste of time, I could elaborate but I would be wasting my time. Goodbye. Enlighten me on what the fact is that all you've said is Deep Thinker patron of law must equal intellgence.

You give a few examples of Thor not beinging overtly clever just somewhat. And you've failed to mention the fact that Odin and Loki have must better Intellectual feats compared to Thor.

Although I will ask the exact nature of Loki's capture as like I said my mind is hazy on the subject.

Originally posted by Newjak


Your claiming titles as proof. And yes back then Law was of the strongest arm had the right of the law. They had some democtratic abilties and some other stuff but in the end law was of the strength of someone.

No this was not always the case there are many examples in the sagas of people meeting together at courts called Athlings in order to discuss the law. So you are just making assumptions.

Originally posted by Newjak

That is why confronting men often ended arguements over battles which is befitting Thor a known War God.

Rubbish. I explained above.

Originally posted by Newjak

You keep talking about this title of Deep Thinker like it is be all end all of the discussion.

Yes because if somebody says you are a deep thinker this means you are dumb.

Originally posted by Newjak

Anyways back to topic. He tricked Dwarf by asking him many questions all of which the Dwarf knew the answer to. Clever maybe but to say that makes him a super gneious no.

Wasting my time. The point is that he tricked him and turned him into stone, you can ignore that point. I have already explained to you how intelligent the dwarves are you ignored that as well.

Originally posted by Newjak

For him finding Loki I will admit my memory on his catpure pf Loki is hazy but I my memory does try to sya that Loki turned into a snake and hide in either a small cavern or a river for some time. It was only through constant looking they were able to find Loki.

Use a bit of common sense. Loki is highly intelligent therefore he would have used intelligence to hide. Loki changed himself into a fish and Thor adapted to Lokis shape shifting powers by using a net. Again understand that myths are symbolic. Thor did not use brute force. It is also symbolic that Thor caught him Thor is the god of justice its his job to deal with problems like this either by force or by brains. So it was not just from looking at was adapting Loki.

Originally posted by Newjak

Nothing really clever going on since Loki has tricked Thor more times then anyone can remember.

Examples.

Originally posted by Newjak

As for the Giant scenario I don't even bother to actually count that as for the fact that your forgetting to mention that it wasn't even Thor that came up with the idea to begin with

Im not talking about that one. Im talking about the incident where Thor didnt use Lokis help its narrated in the Lay of Glyfanning. Just because Thor takes Lokis advice sometimes doesnt mean that he needs to rely on Lokis intelligence.

You cant just take an example of Thor taking Lokis advice then ignore all the other cases where didnt take advice. Its taking things out of context.


Originally posted by Newjak

Once again you have no proof of anything to say his intellgence wasn't completely similir. Was he dumb no but often you are forgetting to mention that Thor has been tricked a few more timez by the like sof Loki Giants,

When did Loki trick Thor? Ive asked you three times now.

Originally posted by Newjak

and Odin himself and in fact in his meeting with Odin at the River Crossing the stories make huge mention that it was an ulitmate symbol of Odin's knowledge against Thor's overall power it sepcificly mentions that.

It doesnt actually your making stuff up.

http://home.earthlink.net/~wodensharrow/harbards.html

Show me where it says that.

Originally posted by Newjak

Meaning that Thor's knowledge simply wasn't that good.

No it doesnt because I explained to you before in the Gautrek saga Thor matched Odin in wits....please dont tell me im gonna have to explain myself again.

Furthermore Odin has been tricked by Frigga on many occassions, does that make Odin less intelligent. Just because somebody gets tricked does not make them stupid you are taking things out of context.

Loki was outsmarted by Thor when he tried to escape and I dont even think that happened once but I would not check on that.

Loki was fooled by Utgard Loki.

loki was not able to escape the punishment of the dwarves and got his lips sewn togther.

If the above was Thor you would be claiming how this makes him less intelligent. Of course you will ignore these points.

Originally posted by Newjak

Also let's not forget that Thor also get alot of help for his plans from outside sources. Take into account his battle where an assocaite of his actually tells the gaint to place his shield beneath his feet so that Thor get s free hit.

Taking things out of context again. Sometimes Thor gets help. To focus on the times that he needs help and to ignore the times when he doesnt is taking things out of context.

Thor didnt need help:

To trick the dwarf
To trick the giant in the Lay of Glyfanning
To match wits with Odin
Thor found Loki on his own.

Originally posted by Newjak

Also take into account that after that fight Thor manages to get himself cuahgt undernaeth the Giants leg not to smart there was it. In fact his son has to come and lift the leg off his father.

Man thats really rude and insensitive.

Originally posted by Newjak

Face it for everything Thor was he wasn't the wisest they make much mention of this as his father and even Loki show to be better thinkers then the "Deep Thinker"


I have alreadty explained. There is a limited amount of sources we have on Norse lore, the fact he is called this implies that there were more stories of him using his brains. You are going to ignore this point and twist things around.

Originally posted by Newjak

It is often Thor's brute strength that lead him into victory not his intellgence.

.......ive given you four examples of him using his brains...how many have you given me of him using brute force..less than four. Dont know what your talking about.

Originally posted by Newjak

He gets alot of help from fellow people when it comes to planning as shown before.

You gave me two examples of him getting help. I give you four of him not using help and you have come to the conclusion he gets alot of help. There are lots of examples of the gods helping each other and travelling together that does not prove anything.

Originally posted by Newjak

And Thor when he was in the realm of giants doing impossible tasks never was able to outthink them.

This proves you have not been listening to what ive been telling you. Lets see what I said about this point in my first post....try and pay attention.


Originally posted by Alfheim


Another story that people use to imply that Thor isn't very smart is when Thor travels to Utgard Loki's lair. Basically Thor gets tricked by the giant Utgard Loki, but what people fail to understand is that Loki was there to and was tricked as well , so Loki (There were two loki's in the story Loki and Utgard-Loki)isnt any smarter than Thor is.



I even wrote some of it in bold, just so you would not miss the point.


Originally posted by Newjak

So once again Thor not a super thinker intellectual

once again you dont know what you're talking about.

Originally posted by Alfheim
No this was not always the case there are many examples in the sagas of people meeting together at courts called Athlings in order to discuss the law. So you are just making assumptions.



Rubbish. I explained above.



Yes because if somebody says you are a deep thinker this means you are dumb.



Wasting my time. The point is that he tricked him and turned him into stone, you can ignore that point. I have already explained to you how intelligent the dwarves are you ignored that as well.



Use a bit of common sense. Loki is highly intelligent therefore he would have used intelligence to hide. Loki changed himself into a fish and Thor adapted to Lokis shape shifting powers by using a net. Again understand that myths are symbolic. Thor did not use brute force. It is also symbolic that Thor caught him Thor is the god of justice its his job to deal with problems like this either by force or by brains. So it was not just from looking at was adapting Loki.



Examples.



Im not talking about that one. Im talking about the incident where Thor didnt use Lokis help its narrated in the Lay of Glyfanning. Just because Thor takes Lokis advice sometimes doesnt mean that he needs to rely on Lokis intelligence.

You cant just take an example of Thor taking Lokis advice then ignore all the other cases where didnt take advice. Its taking things out of context.




When did Loki trick Thor? Ive asked you three times now.



It doesnt actually your making stuff up.

http://home.earthlink.net/~wodensharrow/harbards.html

Show me where it says that.



No it doesnt because I explained to you before in the Gautrek saga Thor matched Odin in wits....please dont tell me im gonna have to explain myself again.

Furthermore Odin has been tricked by Frigga on many occassions, does that make Odin less intelligent. Just because somebody gets tricked does not make them stupid you are taking things out of context.

Loki was outsmarted by Thor when he tried to escape and I dont even think that happened once but I would not check on that.

Loki was fooled by Utgard Loki.

loki was not able to escape the punishment of the dwarves and got his lips sewn togther.

If the above was Thor you would be claiming how this makes him less intelligent. Of course you will ignore these points.



Taking things out of context again. Sometimes Thor gets help. To focus on the times that he needs help and to ignore the times when he doesnt is taking things out of context.

Thor didnt need help:

To trick the dwarf
To trick the giant in the Lay of Glyfanning
To match wits with Odin
Thor found Loki on his own.



Man thats really rude and insensitive.




I have alreadty explained. There is a limited amount of sources we have on Norse lore, the fact he is called this implies that there were more stories of him using his brains. You are going to ignore this point and twist things around.



.......ive given you four examples of him using his brains...how many have you given me of him using brute force..less than four. Dont know what your talking about.



You gave me two examples of him getting help. I give you four of him not using help and you have come to the conclusion he gets alot of help. There are lots of examples of the gods helping each other and travelling together that does not prove anything.



This proves you have not been listening to what ive been telling you. Lets see what I said about this point in my first post....try and pay attention.




I even wrote some of it in bold, just so you would not miss the point.




once again you dont know what you're talking about. Thats right he trapped him in a net when Loki was hiding in a river after running from the Gods.

Yeah sounds like Thor really outsmarted old Loki there catching him in a net after Loki had to run for his life because all the God's were after him. There was no riddle or poem that Thor had to overcome placed by Loki he caught a fleeing person.

You still haven't convinced me that Thor was really smart. You proved to me what I already know that Thor isn't anywhere near as close to Odin or Loki in the brains department. You talk of Thor tricking a dwarf once and he didn't even trick Loki. Heck he never even outwitted Odin like your claiming

So in reality he only really ever tricked the Dwarf once. Compare that to the things Loki and Odin have done with their minds and since you obviously have some intellgence on Norse tellings you would know that they by large and in far have done much better things. Loki tricked ALL of the God's into killing Balder. Odin has tricked people that were said to be the wisest things in creation compared to Thor who once tricked one dwarf who was trying to marry his daughter so obviously was willing to do much to get that approval.

You want to talk to me about Thor using his brains more than his brawns. Would like to go over every fight Thor has had with the giants or ever contest Thor has had over the years where he used nothing but strength. They far out weigh the one real scenario you've shown.

Oh and about laws they would discuss things like what were laws and not but when settling disputes often times the counsel decided fighting was the best area

Like I've said from the begining Thor not dumb but not super intelligent you've shown or posted nothing to prove otherwise

Your a waste of time but I'll reply to you tommorrow because im stubborn.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Your a waste of time but I'll reply to you tommorrow because im stubborn. Your the one trying to tell me that Thor is some kind of Super Genius. In now way have I ever said that Thor is dumb or that Thor can't be clever but he is in no wya nor has he shown that is really is in the league of Odin or Loki.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Furthermore Thor used to be The All-Father of the gods before Odin was.

...come again, buddy?

Listen, I understand that you've chosen this as your religion, and have taken a deep interest in the stories, mythos, etc. but I think you need to dig around the poetic edda or something for awhile and get your facts straight.

I take any 'offensive remarks' the same as you, but they're just the same as some guy cracking Jesus jokes to a Christian. You just have to roll with it. This something most people aren't going to care to sit down and figure out, because no matter what, it's not going to have the same level of importance to them.

I was raised a heathen, it's not something I researched and decided would be meaningful for me to investigate. I was brought up on these stories. While other kids were getting told about David and Goliath, my grandparents were telling me how the walls of Asgard were built. My parents had a heathen marriage, we celebrate Winter Finding, Yule, Feast of Ostara, etc. Hell, just a few weeks ago now I was sitting with my family making oaths on our hammers in front of our sunwheel.

It's not just something my parents decided to pick up in the 60's either, my grandparents, their parents, and their parents for as long as our family tree goes on have been heathen.

Please don't start to exaggerate Thor here (not saying you really have) and compare him with Marvel Thor and start to get feisty when people want to call you on it because he's one of your gods.

I'll post my opinion on the Marvel Thor tomorrow, I'm extremely tired, as it's 3:22 in the morning...

Originally posted by MightyEInherjar
...come again, buddy?

Listen, I understand that you've chosen this as your religion, and have taken a deep interest in the stories, mythos, etc. but I think you need to dig around the poetic edda or something for awhile and get your facts straight.

I have actually. Its in the Germanic period it was said that Thor was the head of the gods. I tell you what since you want argue go here.

http://www.thorshof.org/

Go and argue with the maker of this site. Here name is Thorskeggga and she has dedicated her life to researching Thor and she can tell you that Thor used to be the head of the gods.

Originally posted by MightyEInherjar

I take any 'offensive remarks' the same as you, but they're just the same as some guy cracking Jesus jokes to a Christian. You just have to roll with it. This something most people aren't going to care to sit down and figure out, because no matter what, it's not going to have the same level of importance to them.

Dont tell me what to do.

Originally posted by MightyEInherjar

I was raised a heathen, it's not something I researched and decided would be meaningful for me to investigate. I was brought up on these stories. While other kids were getting told about David and Goliath, my grandparents were telling me how the walls of Asgard were built. My parents had a heathen marriage, we celebrate Winter Finding, Yule, Feast of Ostara, etc. Hell, just a few weeks ago now I was sitting with my family making oaths on our hammers in front of our sunwheel.


With all due respect I dont want to know about your family history, please contribute something to the discussion or go away.



Originally posted by MightyEInherjar

It's not just something my parents decided to pick up in the 60's either, my grandparents, their parents, and their parents for as long as our family tree goes on have been heathen.

With all due respect I dont want to know about your family history, please contribute something to the discussion or go away.

Originally posted by MightyEInherjar

Please don't start to exaggerate Thor here (not saying you really have) and compare him with Marvel Thor and start to get feisty when people want to call you on it because he's one of your gods.

Im very dissapointed with you. I have not exaggerated anything I think you have a chip on your shoulder.

Originally posted by MightyEInherjar

I'll post my opinion on the Marvel Thor tomorrow, I'm extremely tired, as it's 3:22 in the morning...

Fine.

http://thorshof.org/thunder14.htm


So Can Thor Be Considered As A Patron Of Spiritual Enlightenment?

1. Freya is said to have taught the gods of the Aesir the magical arts when she arrived in Asgard. This would include Thor.

2. There are references in both the sagas and the surviving runic monuments that Thor was asked to perform magic by his worshippers.

3. The sagas claim that Thor can influence dreams, strong evidence of shamanic ability.

4. Thor can appear instantly where he is needed, such as in the tale of Building of Asgard's wall. Either his goats can run very fast or he can magically move from one place to another.

5. There has been much academic debate on possible hidden meanings in the Tale of Geirrod, in which Thor trades his hammer for a witchwoman's staff and is forced to cross a river of giantess's urine. Suggestions vary from a journey of shamanic initiation to a creation myth. It is also interesting to note that the staff was the mark of office of the female magic working in the north.

6. Several myths refer to Thor calling on a reserve of magical power to increase his strength (The Lay of Hymir, The Tale of Geirrod). This allows him to increase in size until he stands 'as high as heaven'. If this isn't magical power I don't know what is.

7. Thor fools Hymir by arriving in the form of a young boy, this is an example of shapeshifting, a talent of the god often overlooked.

8. When compared to the classical pantheon, Thor is compared to Jove, thus Jovis Dais is our Thursday. Thor shares many of Jove's attributes including an interest in law and order and his role as benevolent protector. Jove does not suffer from accusations of stupidity and occupies a position of unquestioned supremacy among the Roman gods.

9. Thor is frequently invoked (more so apparently than any other Norse deity) for the consecration and hallowing of religious artefacts and ceremonies. Thus Thor must be considered to be in tune with spirituality.

10. Thor's hammer has no spiritual characteristics and is clearly not the source of Thor's consecrating power. (Its attributes are listed in the Edda, it cannot be broken, cannot miss its mark, can change in size and always returns to Thor's hand when thrown. Although magical these qualities do not explain the symbol was used to hallow.) This strongly suggests that the hammer is used in this context because it is Thor's personal symbol.

11. It is not Thor's hammer that gives him control over the weather and thunder. This power appears to be part of his very being. Again this is a magical ability.

12. Thor is shown on many of the surviving hammer amulets in the form of a bird, probably an eagle. As this symbolism is not explained in the myths and sagas it appears to be a shamanic form of the god which has not been recorded. This would tie in with thunder bird beliefs from across the globe.

13. In the Eddic tale of Balder's funeral celebrations it is Thor who among all the gods acts as a priest and blesses the pyre.

14. Thor has the power to raise the dead (Myth of Utgardaloki)

15. Thor decrees the fate of Starkard in King Gautrek's Saga. This shows he has the ability to manipulate future events.

16. Thor is the companion of Loki, probably the most daring user of magical power among all the gods and goddesses, some of Loki's knowledge must have been passed on.

17. Thor is depicted in later artwork as having a halo of fire and or stars, and is well known for having a fiery gaze. Of all the gods and goddesses described in the myths he is the least 'human' in appearance. This would suggest that it was recognised that Thor is closer to the elemental forces he represents and controls than the other deities, and therefore very much part of the spiritual life force. Before anyone claims that Thor only represents the element of fire, remember he is very close to all four elements.

18. Thor is more associated with star constellations than any other Norse deity. He is also credited with placing the stars Aurvandil (story of Hrungnir) and Thiassi's eyes (version given in the Lay of Harbard) in the heavens. These are aspects of creation.

19. According to Berlams Saga, Thor is the father of nine of the Norns.

20. One of Thor's quests in the myths is the search for a cauldron, cauldrons often represent spiritual knowledge such as the cauldrons of mead won by Odin.

21. Thor's bizarre tactics in Egil and Asmund's Saga (the story of Eaglebeak) suggests a knowledge of the future. As Thor is the brother of the goddess Frigg (who knows the future but doesn't speak of it) and wife of Sif, who Snorri names as a seeress and father of nine Norns this is far from improbable.

22. Again in Eaglebeak Thor blesses the farm so it has an improbable yeild, another aspect of magical ability.

23. Some of the most complex Norse poetry was written in Thor's honour, the obvious examples being the poetic versions of the tales of Geirrod and Hrungnir preseved in Snorri's Edda. Such elaborate work would not have been dedicated to Thor if he was not considered a connoisseur of the poetic arts. His interest in poetic kennings revealed in his intellectual contest with Alvis also suggests this is the case.

24. The heathen Icelandic legal oath named an 'almighty god' alongside Frey and Njord, this is most certainly Thor the patron of the Althing. 'Almighty' suggests that Thor was considered to be well qualified in all aspects of godhood, and not just good at wacking things.

25. If Thor is not able to provide for his followers spiritual needs, why was he so popular in the past and why is he so popular now?

I will let the evidence speak for itself. If Mike wants an end to the bickering about the term Odinism, it will cease when he and others of his ilk stop trying to apply it to folk who do not include the god in their worship and have little interest the battlegod at all. It is a nonsensical term equivalent to calling all monotheists (i.e. Jews and Muslims) Christians, and no one would be surprised if some of them got very miffed. It may be that Odin is better known to the general public than many other deities, but that is no excuse to insult heathens by using an inappropriate blanket term.

As a follower of Thor I would say that Thor is almost certainly now better known and understood by the general public than Odin. Thanks to the complimentary (if laughable) portrayals of the god as a prominent superhero by Marvel Comics Inc and as an intergalactic peacekeeper by the producers of the Stargate television series. So I am first a friend of Thor, second a heathen but never, never, never an Odinist.

You know what im really disappointed with you ever since I created this thread you have been against me. You didnt even know why I created the thread in the first place while everybody else did.

Ok heres a couple of things I just want to add

Originally posted by MightyEInherjar
Coming from an entire family of Germanic Heathens, I respect what you're doing, but I don't really think people are going to understand what you're trying to get across.

When I posted this in the religon forum this is what you said. Now lets think about this for a second. Every man and his dog knows what im trying to get across. How is that you who were born heathen doesnt know what im trying to get across. Maybe you dont want to. Its just an opportunity for you to shoot your mouth off and tell me what to do because you have some complex.

The intersting thing as well is that im the only one in the religon forum who has spoken about heathenism. Ive never seen you there once but now all of a sudden you want to tell me what to do.


Originally posted by MightyEInherjar


I was raised a heathen, it's not something I researched and decided would be meaningful for me to investigate.

Thats interesting. So in other words because you were raised heathen that means your better than me. What does that say about you? Please dont tell me you're a folkist heathen.

Originally posted by Newjak
Thats right he trapped him in a net when Loki was hiding in a river after running from the Gods.

Yeah sounds like Thor really outsmarted old Loki there catching him in a net after Loki had to run for his life because all the God's were after him. There was no riddle or poem that Thor had to overcome placed by Loki he caught a fleeing person.


Actually im a bit hazy on the details but I think actually in one version Thor gets help, and there is another one were he doesn't im not sure.

Originally posted by Newjak

You still haven't convinced me that Thor was really smart. You proved to me what I already know that Thor isn't anywhere near as close to Odin or Loki in the brains department.

I probably never will you dont want to be convinced.

Originally posted by Newjak

You talk of Thor tricking a dwarf once

Yes that is an impressive feat you also forgot to mention that Thor tricked a giant on his own without help. Giants are highly intelligent as well. Both Odin and Loki have giant blood in them. Some giants have vast magical powers and some are highly intelligent such as Mimir. You might recall that Odin sacrificed his eye to drink from his well.

Originally posted by Newjak

and he didn't even trick Loki.

I might be wrong about that, but I have asked you at least four times to give me examples of Loki tricking Thor. Stop wasting my time.

Originally posted by Newjak

Heck he never even outwitted Odin like your claiming

Again your not paying attention. I said that Thor matched his wits against Odin, I never said he outwitted him. Just being able to do that means you have to be smart. Some very wise gianst have matched their wits against Odin and have lost. It could also be percieved that he won because Thor achieved his objective in making Starkad's life difficult and Thor had the last word not Odin.

Originally posted by Newjak

So in reality he only really ever tricked the Dwarf once.

So in reality your not paying attention.

Originally posted by Newjak

Compare that to the things Loki and Odin have done with their minds and since you obviously have some intellgence on Norse tellings you would know that they by large and in far have done much better things.

No all gods have impressive feats. None more impressive than the others everyone of them is special. For example Heimdall has to warn the gods about Raganarok, just that act in itself is important because if he does not do this the gods may not survive.

If I wanted to be petty I could add that Thor is the father of the Norns according to berlams Saga... and no its not just a matter of him being the father of the Norns, its symbolic and is an indication of what sort of being he is. I think I even saw a source that said he gave birth to them but I cant find it. In some myths the Norns are more powerful than the gods, so do the math.

Originally posted by Newjak

Loki tricked ALL of the God's into killing Balder.

No he didnt he tricked one god and that god was blind.

Originally posted by Newjak

Odin has tricked people that were said to be the wisest things in creation

Yeah and Thor has matched wits with Odin, so what does that say about Thor? Like I said it could be considered that Thor won beacuse he had the last word, and he achieved his objective....making Starkad's life difficult. Odin has tricked Thor once, being tricked once by somebody does not mean they are more intelligent.


Originally posted by Newjak

compared to Thor who once tricked one dwarf who was trying to marry his daughter so obviously was willing to do much to get that approval.

Let me break this down to you again. The dwarves created the treasures of the gods including Mjolinor.....no Mjolinor = dead gods. If I wanted to be petty I could conclude that the dwarves are more intelligent than the gods, Odin included.

Originally posted by Newjak

You want to talk to me about Thor using his brains more than his brawns. Would like to go over every fight Thor has had with the giants or ever contest Thor has had over the years where he used nothing but strength.

Well I have shown three examples of him using his wits. I have listed 25 points listed by a scholar of Thor which shows he was not known for just wacking things. Of course you will focus on the points were he has learnt things from Freyja and Loki and ignore everything else.

Originally posted by Newjak

They far out weigh the one real scenario you've shown.

Well I have shown three examples of him using his wits. I have listed 25 points listed by a scholar of Thor which shows he was not known for just wacking things. Of course you will focus on the points were he has learnt things from Freyja and Loki and ignore everything else.

Originally posted by Newjak

Oh and about laws they would discuss things like what were laws and not but when settling disputes often times the counsel decided fighting was the best area

You obvoulsy have not read any viking sagas have you but you sound as if you are so certain. There are plenty examples in the Norse sagas were they did not settle disputes by fighting you would know that if you read any.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_laws

The lawspeaker presided the Things, worked as a judge and formulated the laws that had been decided by the people. The lawspeaker was obliged to memorize the law and to recite it at the Thing. He was also responsible for the administration at the thing and for the execution of the decisions, and it was his duty to safeguard the rights and liberties of the people and to speak in their behalf to the king or his representative.

Does that sound like somebody who doesnt have to use his brains alot? Not only does he have to memorise vast amounts of information he has to apply the law correctly, and as you can imagine there were lots of different situations, marriage, inheritance, trading, land, housing etc. Furthermore he was also in charge of administration and that would involve alot of stuff.

Originally posted by Newjak

Like I've said from the begining Thor not dumb but not super intelligent you've shown or posted nothing to prove otherwise

You're an argumentative waste of time but im stubborn.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Actually im a bit hazy on the details but I think actually in one version Thor gets help, and there is another one were he doesn't im not sure.



I probably never will you dont want to be convinced.



Yes that is an impressive feat you also forgot to mention that Thor tricked a giant on his own without help. Giants are highly intelligent as well. Both Odin and Loki have giant blood in them. Some giants have vast magical powers and some are highly intelligent such as Mimir. You might recall that Odin sacrificed his eye to drink from his well.



I might be wrong about that, but I have asked you at least four times to give me examples of Loki tricking Thor. Stop wasting my time.



Again your not paying attention. I said that Thor matched his wits against Odin, I never said he outwitted him. Just being able to do that means you have to be smart. Some very wise gianst have matched their wits against Odin and have lost. It could also be percieved that he won because Thor achieved his objective in making Starkad's life difficult and Thor had the last word not Odin.



So in reality your not paying attention.



No all gods have impressive feats. None more impressive than the others everyone of them is special. For example Heimdall has to warn the gods about Raganarok, just that act in itself is important because if he does not do this the gods may not survive.

If I wanted to be petty I could add that Thor is the father of the Norns according to berlams Saga... and no its not just a matter of him being the father of the Norns, its symbolic and is an indication of what sort of being he is. I think I even saw a source that said he gave birth to them but I cant find it. In some myths the Norns are more powerful than the gods, so do the math.



No he didnt he tricked one god and that god was blind.



Yeah and Thor has matched wits with Odin, so what does that say about Thor? Like I said it could be considered that Thor won beacuse he had the last word, and he achieved his objective....making Starkad's life difficult. Odin has tricked Thor once, being tricked once by somebody does not mean they are more intelligent.




Let me break this down to you again. The dwarves created the treasures of the gods including Mjolinor.....no Mjolinor = dead gods. If I wanted to be petty I could conclude that the dwarves are more intelligent than the gods, Odin included.



Well I have shown three examples of him using his wits. I have listed 25 points listed by a scholar of Thor which shows he was not known for just wacking things. Of course you will focus on the points were he has learnt things from Freyja and Loki and ignore everything else.



Well I have shown three examples of him using his wits. I have listed 25 points listed by a scholar of Thor which shows he was not known for just wacking things. Of course you will focus on the points were he has learnt things from Freyja and Loki and ignore everything else.



You obvoulsy have not read any viking sagas have you but you sound as if you are so certain. There are plenty examples in the Norse sagas were they did not settle disputes by fighting you would know that if you read any.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_laws

The lawspeaker presided the Things, worked as a judge and formulated the laws that had been decided by the people. The lawspeaker was obliged to memorize the law and to recite it at the Thing. He was also responsible for the administration at the thing and for the execution of the decisions, and it was his duty to safeguard the rights and liberties of the people and to speak in their behalf to the king or his representative.

Does that sound like somebody who doesnt have to use his brains alot? Not only does he have to memorise vast amounts of information he has to apply the law correctly, and as you can imagine there were lots of different situations, marriage, inheritance, trading, land, housing etc. Furthermore he was also in charge of administration and that would involve alot of stuff.



You're an argumentative waste of time but im stubborn. I'm sorry but before I was being nice because well it is your chosen religion to follow Thor but now you want to call me being Stubborn

Honestly your grasping for straws and trying to make loose connections between things. He kept one dwarf answering questions for one night you know how many variables that could have taken place bewtween then and morning. Honestly the dwarf could have lost track of time could have simply been willing to risk it. Saying that Thor completely outsmarted the dwarf is well you know stupid.

As for him matching wits with Odin I've already went ove rthis all he did was say the exact opposite of what Odin said. He only got the last word in because despite everything Thor did Odin still got what he wanted. The hero was remembered throughout history eventually ending up with the Gods in Valhalla so who really outsmarted who?

Next as for your he outsmarted a giant with help on planning well let's look at this shall we. The fact is yes some gaints are really smart unforuntely Thor never matched wits with those ones. NO he being helped tricked a stupid giant which believe it or not many giants were stupid and shown to be stupid. So taking a few of the smart ones which Thor never went against to say all giants are smart therefore Thor must have tricked a smart one is absurd.

Also Loki did in fact trick and dupe mutliple gods inlcuding the goddess that made all fo anture take the oath not to hurt Balder. Along with the one blind God

Finally as for your 25 points all of them basically try ro make loose connections like Thor traveled with Loki therefore must have gotten some of his knowledge. No where in the Mytos does it ever say Thor learned anything from Loki.

Then the rest talk about roles and him using his powers to do things. Maybe he didn't whack anything but he defently used his raw power to overcome and do things like he normally he does. Nothing at all about how smart he is

In the end all you've done is use a bunch of heresay a few meaningless feats most of which also accompany other baggage. It just isn't good evidence to suggest he was in the brains department of Odin or Loki.

Basically you've given me a big streaming pile of crap to actually show Thor is super intelligent.

OK just so we are clear here is what you did.

Try to take an arguement between Odin and Thor and try to turn it into an epic battle fo wits.

You tried to show(with help) how Thor overcame one stupid giant.

You tried to showcase one event with Loki where Thor caught Loki when Loki was running for his life from ALL the gods.

Finally he once tricked a Dwarf into talking all night. A dwarf that was A) trying to get Thor's daughter for marriage and B) probably didn't even care about his own life if he was trying to talk to Thor.

So unless you can actually show me where Thor puts together some elaborate plan I'm saying it now you've busted

Originally posted by Newjak
I'm sorry but before I was being nice because well it is your chosen religion to follow Thor BUT NOW YOU WANT TO CALL ME BEING STUBBORN



This shows your a complete waste of time. Lets see what I said.


Originally posted by Alfheim


You're an argumentative waste of time but IM STUBBORN.

Its no point arguing with you because you constantly twists things around just so you can win an arguement. Not sure if you can read that but I said I was stubborn.

Originally posted by Alfheim
This shows your a complete waste of time. Lets see what I said.




Its no point arguing with you because you constantly twists things around just so you can win an arguement. Not sure if you can read that but I said I was stubborn. Waste or stubborn whatever you wanted to call me I think you got the point of waht I was trying to ssay.

And I did no twisting of words or anything I'm just waiting for you to show a good example of Thor's vast intelligence.

Originally posted by Newjak


Honestly your grasping for straws and trying to make loose connections between things. He kept one dwarf answering questions for one night you know how many variables that could have taken place bewtween then and morning. Honestly the dwarf could have lost track of time could have simply been willing to risk it. Saying that Thor completely outsmarted the dwarf is well you know stupid.

Well you decide for yourself. As I pointed out to you dwarves are extremely intelligent. Also dwarves are aware that if the sun come up they will turn to stone, so in other words they will make it their business to know what the time is.

Originally posted by Newjak

As for him matching wits with Odin I've already went ove rthis all he did was say the exact opposite of what Odin said.

I already explained that to you their is a science to intepreting myths. Myths are symbolic there is alot more going on than Thor saying the opposite of what he said. The fact that Thor can actually say the opposite of what he said shows how powerful he is.

Let me try and elaborate again. To truly understand myths you have to try and look at it a deeper and symbolic level, for example Odin is an old man with one eye. Odin is not literially an old man with on eye this is just the form he takes to appear to us mortals. Now pay attention this bit is important......to truly understand Odin you need to understand the symbols. Odin is old, old usually represents wisdom so we can deduce that he is associated with wisdom. Odin has one eye this is symbolic in the sense it shows that Odin makes sacrifices, so Odin represents self-sacrifice.

This is a similar thing that is going on with Thor and Odin. Its not just a simple matter of him saying the opposite of what Odin said. I have already explained that to you.

Originally posted by Newjak

He only got the last word in because despite everything Thor did Odin still got what he wanted.

How do you know that.

Originally posted by Newjak

The hero was remembered throughout history eventually ending up with the Gods in Valhalla so who really outsmarted who?

It was not Thors objective to stop him from going to Valhalla, it was his objective to make his life difficult and thats what he did. Imagine you are trying to draw a picture but somebody keeps altering everytime you do something good, you end up with a picture you didnt want to begin with.

Starkad is not a well known hero, actually.

Originally posted by Newjak

Next as for your he outsmarted a giant with help on planning well let's look at this shall we.

Without help.

Originally posted by Newjak

The fact is yes some gaints are really smart unforuntely Thor never matched wits with those ones.

How do you know that? Name me some stupid giants, so in other words despite the fact that Thor has tricked a dwarf, the giant had to be stupid

Originally posted by Newjak

NO he being helped tricked a stupid giant which believe it or not many giants were stupid and shown to be stupid.

Give me examples.

Originally posted by Newjak

So taking a few of the smart ones which Thor never went against to say all giants are smart therefore Thor must have tricked a smart one is absurd.

Ive actually shown that most giants are intelligent. Logic therefore indicates that the giant must have been intelligent.

Originally posted by Newjak

Also Loki did in fact trick and dupe mutliple gods inlcuding the goddess that made all fo anture take the oath not to hurt Balder. Along with the one blind God

See now your making stuff..again. Loki didnt make anybody take any oath. Frigga made everything take an oath because Baldur was having nightmares.

Its only god who killed Baldur and that was Hod....and Hod was blind

Originally posted by Newjak

Finally as for your 25 points all of them basically try ro make loose connections like Thor traveled with Loki therefore must have gotten some of his knowledge. No where in the Mytos does it ever say Thor learned anything from Loki.

It doesnt have to. If you hang around somebody alot you pick things up. Use your head. Anyway your only saying that because I said you would use this is as an argument against me.

Originally posted by Newjak

Then the rest talk about roles and him using his powers to do things. Maybe he didn't whack anything but he defently used his raw power to overcome and do things like he normally he does. Nothing at all about how smart he is

Im not going over all 25 points again. Everbody else can read for themselves most of the stuff their does not involve wacking things.



Originally posted by Newjak

OK just so we are clear here is what you did.

Try to take an arguement between Odin and Thor and try to turn it into an epic battle fo wits.

Well its open to intepretation. Thor was just trying to make his life difficult and thats what he did.

Originally posted by Newjak

You tried to show(with help) how Thor overcame one stupid giant.


No I already explained that. The giant was called Hymir this is a different story where Thor trys to kill the World Serpent. This is not the story you are refering to. You have only come the conclusion that the giant was stupid because Thor tricked him.

Originally posted by Newjak

You tried to showcase one event with Loki where Thor caught Loki when Loki was running for his life from ALL the gods.

Fair enough but ethere are different versions of the story. I will have to find them.

Originally posted by Newjak

Finally he once tricked a Dwarf into talking all night. A dwarf that was A) trying to get Thor's daughter for marriage and B) probably didn't even care about his own life if he was trying to talk to Thor.

Why would he not care about his own life. If the sun comes up he turns to stone. So you're telling me if you knew that sunlight could turn you to stone you would not check up on the time constantly?

Originally posted by Newjak

So unless you can actually show me where Thor puts together some elaborate plan I'm saying it now you've busted

I have already the dwarf. I also explained that dwarves can be considered to be more intellignet than the gods baecuse they created the treasures of the gods. Odin did not, neither did Loki.

The giant. I repeat this is the giant HYMIR. This is not the giant that Thor killed with help. Give me examples of stupid giants. I have already explained how most giants are intelligent therefore this giant must have been intelligent.

Thor and Odin. Thor's objective was to make his life difficult he achieved that aim.

There is also the issue of viking law. I showed you how complicated it could be you did not address any of my points.

Furthermore according to the Barlams saga Thor is the father of the norns. I repeat its not just an issue of him just being the father myths are also symbolic . In some myths the Norns are more powerful than the gods.

and theres this:


http://www.thorshof.org/patthor.htm


However, in the eleventh century account by Adam of Bremen of the great temple at Uppsala, the Statue of Thor is described as being in the centre between Odin and Fricco (Freyr) and when plague or famine threatened a sacrifice would be offered to Thor by his priests.

You can see there that Thor was given more importance than Odin was, but you will probably tell me that the people who made the temple were thick, the same way you said that viking law was simple.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok heres a couple of things I just want to add



When I posted this in the religon forum this is what you said. Now lets think about this for a second. Every man and his dog knows what im trying to get across. How is that you who were born heathen doesnt know what im trying to get across. Maybe you dont want to. Its just an opportunity for you to shoot your mouth off and tell me what to do because you have some complex.

The intersting thing as well is that im the only one in the religon forum who has spoken about heathenism. Ive never seen you there once but now all of a sudden you want to tell me what to do.


Are you serious? Do you really think I'm trying to argue against you, trying to provoke you? Where have I once "told you what to do?" I was trying to give you support.

What I was trying to prevent was you getting offended by a majority of people not understanding why you're getting upset when someone makes a "rude and insensitive" comment about one of your gods. They don't realize that it's no different than looking a graphic novel of the Bible with a Christian and telling him, "lolz, that newb got nailed to a cross!" I wanted to preempt the imminent arguments that would start, like the one you and Newjak are currently having, by trying to make you realize people wouldn't have the heart to try and look at it from your own perspective before they say something that offended you.

Where did I mention I was better than you? When did I once display an elitist attitude? I was trying to APPEAL to a common cause by relating my background to the situation, and once more I'll do it again.

I won't try and pretend I know you or your background, but from my own experience, whenever a topic comes up between a heathen and a non-heathen like comparing Marvel Thor to Thor, it always turns out badly, usually with the heathen pissed off and the other not really caring.



These are the types of reasons I avoid the Religion forum. What good could come from discussing it constantly with a group of (for the most part) ignorant atheists and christians? As I said, I have my own reason, but it's not really on this topic, I just thought I'd reply at it because it seems like you're just trying to take shots at my credibility. Seriously, how was that anything other than an attack?



What is that supposed to mean? Where did I once state I was better than you?



Again, what's that supposed to mean? You're the on one with the chip on your shoulder now. I make a few comments, try to give you support, and all you come back with is "Don't tell me what to do!!" and comments like the once quoted above. You're obviously the elitist now, trying to stack things by who's better. This is no different then brooding Christians getting pissed at other denominations. To relate to something I saw a few days ago here:



Same damn thing.

Originally posted by MightyEInherjar
Are you serious? Do you really think I'm trying to argue against you, trying to provoke you? Where have I once "told you what to do?" I was trying to give you support.

What I was trying to prevent was you getting offended by a majority of people not understanding why you're getting upset when someone makes a "rude and insensitive" comment about one of your gods. They don't realize that it's no different than looking a graphic novel of the Bible with a Christian and telling him, "lolz, that newb got nailed to a cross!" I wanted to preempt the imminent arguments that would start, like the one you and Newjak are currently having, by trying to make you realize people wouldn't have the heart to try and look at it from your own perspective before they say something that offended you.

Where did I mention I was better than you? When did I once display an elitist attitude? I was trying to APPEAL to a common cause by relating my background to the situation, and once more I'll do it again.

I won't try and pretend I know you or your background, but from my own experience, whenever a topic comes up between a heathen and a non-heathen like comparing Marvel Thor to Thor, it always turns out badly, usually with the heathen pissed off and the other not really caring.



These are the types of reasons I avoid the Religion forum. What good could come from discussing it constantly with a group of (for the most part) ignorant atheists and christians? As I said, I have my own reason, but it's not really on this topic, I just thought I'd reply at it because it seems like you're just trying to take shots at my credibility. Seriously, how was that anything other than an attack?



What is that supposed to mean? Where did I once state I was better than you?



Again, what's that supposed to mean? You're the on one with the chip on your shoulder now. I make a few comments, try to give you support, and all you come back with is "Don't tell me what to do!!" and comments like the once quoted above. You're obviously the elitist now, trying to stack things by who's better. This is no different then brooding Christians getting pissed at other denominations. To relate to something I saw a few days ago here:



Same damn thing.

OK i'll reply to this tommorrow, but its not as simple as you might think. If you look at the way you have behaved towards me you have not been supportive, in fact you have been rather judgemental and accused me of exaggerating things. Does that sound like somebody who is trying to be supportive?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well you decide for yourself. As I pointed out to you dwarves are extremely intelligent. Also dwarves are aware that if the sun come up they will turn to stone, so in other words they will make it their business to know what the time is.



I already explained that to you their is a science to intepreting myths. Myths are symbolic there is alot more going on than Thor saying the opposite of what he said. The fact that Thor can actually say the opposite of what he said shows how powerful he is.

Let me try and elaborate again. To truly understand myths you have to try and look at it a deeper and symbolic level, for example Odin is an old man with one eye. Odin is not literially an old man with on eye this is just the form he takes to appear to us mortals. Now pay attention this bit is important......to truly understand Odin you need to understand the symbols. Odin is old, old usually represents wisdom so we can deduce that he is associated with wisdom. Odin has one eye this is symbolic in the sense it shows that Odin makes sacrifices, so Odin represents self-sacrifice.

This is a similar thing that is going on with Thor and Odin. Its not just a simple matter of him saying the opposite of what Odin said. I have already explained that to you.



How do you know that.



It was not Thors objective to stop him from going to Valhalla, it was his objective to make his life difficult and thats what he did. Imagine you are trying to draw a picture but somebody keeps altering everytime you do something good, you end up with a picture you didnt want to begin with.

Starkad is not a well known hero, actually.



Without help.



How do you know that? Name me some stupid giants, so in other words despite the fact that Thor has tricked a dwarf, the giant had to be stupid



Give me examples.



Ive actually shown that most giants are intelligent. Logic therefore indicates that the giant must have been intelligent.



See now your making stuff..again. Loki didnt make anybody take any oath. Frigga made everything take an oath because Baldur was having nightmares.

Its only god who killed Baldur and that was Hod....and Hod was blind



It doesnt have to. If you hang around somebody alot you pick things up. Use your head. Anyway your only saying that because I said you would use this is as an argument against me.



Im not going over all 25 points again. Everbody else can read for themselves most of the stuff their does not involve wacking things.





Well its open to intepretation. Thor was just trying to make his life difficult and thats what he did.



No I already explained that. The giant was called Hymir this is a different story where Thor trys to kill the World Serpent. This is not the story you are refering to. You have only come the conclusion that the giant was stupid because Thor tricked him.



Fair enough but ethere are different versions of the story. I will have to find them.



Why would he not care about his own life. If the sun comes up he turns to stone. So you're telling me if you knew that sunlight could turn you to stone you would not check up on the time constantly?



I have already the dwarf. I also explained that dwarves can be considered to be more intellignet than the gods baecuse they created the treasures of the gods. Odin did not, neither did Loki.

The giant. I repeat this is the giant HYMIR. This is not the giant that Thor killed with help. Give me examples of stupid giants. I have already explained how most giants are intelligent therefore this giant must have been intelligent.

Thor and Odin. Thor's objective was to make his life difficult he achieved that aim.

There is also the issue of viking law. I showed you how complicated it could be you did not address any of my points.

Furthermore according to the Barlams saga Thor is the father of the norns. I repeat its not just an issue of him just being the father myths are also symbolic . In some myths the Norns are more powerful than the gods.

and theres this:


http://www.thorshof.org/patthor.htm


However, in the eleventh century account by Adam of Bremen of the great temple at Uppsala, the Statue of Thor is described as being in the centre between Odin and Fricco (Freyr) and when plague or famine threatened a sacrifice would be offered to Thor by his priests.

You can see there that Thor was given more importance than Odin was, but you will probably tell me that the people who made the temple were thick, the same way you said that viking law was simple. This is the last reply to your posts because I'm pretty sure anyone with half a brain and yes I am trying to be a little rude right now can see that you've really shown nothing.



You've only proven that which most people already knew that Thor isn't dumb not that Thor is a super genious like your trying to claim.

You look throughout the entire Mythos of Norse Mythology and you'll notice out of all the battles and feats you call upon one possible dwarven incident to make your claim that Thor was in fact one of the smartest Gods to walk the Earth. Nice try but not good enough to convence me that Thor is as smart Odin or Loki.



By the way just to basically grind your little pedestal into the ground. Giants for the most part are stupid. Thor has refered to the frost giants as savages and barbrains in his own battles. One Giant was basically a thug with a head of stone that Thor fought. Which by the way someone else came up with the clever plan to beat that giant.


Fact is Odin once outsmarted the wisest thing in all of creation. Thor mearly said the oppsotie of what Odin said. By the way Thor's whole objective in his bickering was to make his life bad but in the end he was quite well known in his own culture and eventually goes to lead a better life in Valhalla which is why I said i nthe end Odin got what he wanted. Now as for Symbolism I understand but along with that you've got to take some things literally. Odin and Thor were fighting about the fate of a hero not over some great question of their time.

As for Loki I know Loki didn't make all of anture take oaths and I even say so in my post now obviously you must have overlooked otherwise you just can't read. I said Loki outsmarted the person to reveal which thing in nature didn't take the oath. Read a little slower next time

And your 25 points none of them actually say Thor is smart. Oh he uses his power to control the elements big woopie-doo like you really have to be smart to do that


And as for offending you I could give to cents about your feelings about something. I'm a christian and people tell me things about Christ making fun of him I don't like it but it is the way of the world and I just let it slide and take it in stride. Perhaps you could learn some of the samething

Originally posted by Newjak



you call upon one possible dwarven incident to make your claim that Thor was in fact one of the smartest Gods to walk the Earth. Nice try but not good enough to convence me that Thor is as smart Odin or Loki.

I have already explained how smart dwarves are if they had not created the treasures of the gods, the gods would have died. Considering that fact the dwarves could be considered to be smarter than either Loki or Odin because they were not able to create them, if you cant get that I cant help you.

Originally posted by Newjak

Thor has refered to the frost giants as savages and barbrains in his own battles.

LOL, that doesn't mean that giants are stupid that means he doesn't like them. Just because you call somebody a name doesnt make it true. I have probably asked you four times now give me examples of dumb giants.

If frost giants are savages then Loki must be a savage because he is half giant. Odin must be a savage because his ancestors are frost giants. Thor must be a savage because some of his ancestors are frost giant. Skadi the godess of winter must be a savage because she is half frost giant. So Thor calling a frost giant a savage does not prove anything?

Originally posted by Newjak

One Giant was basically a thug

Why was he a thug? He was a thug because he was fighting H2H and you only have one story of his appearance. So your using one story to prove that he was a thug, great evidence.


Originally posted by Newjak

with a head of stone that Thor fought.

Again let me explain, your ignorance is showing. This is symbolic again. You would know that due to this battle Thor got a stone stuck in his head. If you had done some research you would know that in some temples to do with Thor people would light a stone that would be planted in a statue of Thor's head. Therefore this story is about inspiration, go and argue with the scholars. In celtic mythology they refer to the fire in the head, this is obvoulsy something similar. Celtic mythology is obvoulsy similar to the Norse cultutre they are both Indo-Europeans, they have similar gods and traditions.

Originally posted by Newjak

Which by the way someone else came up with the clever plan to beat that giant.

Yes but nobody came up with the clever plan to beat Hymir. That was Thor on his own.

Originally posted by Newjak

Fact is Odin once outsmarted the wisest thing in all of creation.

Ok since your so smart, show me where it says Odin outsmarted,the wisest thing in all creation. If you check your facts you will see that Odin has outsmarted wise beings not the most smartest being in all creation, and Thor has done the same, not just with the dwarf but with the giant as well.

Originally posted by Newjak

Thor mearly said the oppsotie of what Odin said.

Again for the millenth time, its not as simple as saying the opposite.
http://faculty.gvsu.edu/websterm/ways.htm

The mythologist Joseph Campbell sees myth as metaphors or symbols of the unknown. This "unknown" is located in two places: in the spiritual realm and in the depths of the human psyche. Campbell reasons that even though the divine, or "God," or whatever you call it (him/her?) is ultimately unknowable by human thought, men still try to create images of the Godhead. These images and stories may vary from culture to culture, but they remain valid as metaphors which express our experience of something beyond the human. Remarkably, many of themes and motifs in myths reappear in stories told by widely scattered peoples, which for Campbell means that many of them must be inherent in the human psyche. Thus, myths can also tell us truths about our own psychology. (See item # 10 below and the page on "The Hero's Journey," where I discuss Campbell's idea of the hero.)

Are we getting the message now?

Originally posted by Newjak

By the way Thor's whole objective in his bickering was to make his life bad but in the end he was quite well known in his own culture


Well most people hated him, if you want that to be considered well known.

Originally posted by Newjak

and eventually goes to lead a better life in Valhalla which is why I said i nthe end Odin got what he wanted.

The afterlife is not an issue here, neither Odin or Thor talked about the afterlife they spoke about his life. If you worship a certain god when you die you end up in his domain those are the rules. Thors objective was to make his life difficult, the afterlife is not an issue.

Originally posted by Newjak

Now as for Symbolism I understand but along with that you've got to take some things literally. Odin and Thor were fighting about the fate of a hero not over some great question of their time.

Yes but in order to do that you need to be powerful to do that in the first place. If it was no big deal Starkad would have told them all to go to hell.



Originally posted by Newjak

As for Loki I know Loki didn't make all of anture take oaths and I even say so in my post now obviously you must have overlooked otherwise you just can't read. I said Loki outsmarted the person to reveal which thing in nature didn't take the oath. Read a little slower next time


Considering as well that it is really badly written I can be forgiven for making a mistake. Considering you have been saying things like viking laws were simple and that giants were stupid and other assumptions I can be forgiven.

Oh yeah and Thor has caught Loki on his own. When The dwarves were making Thors hammer Loki turned himself into a fly and slightly messed up there work. Thor chased after Loki on his own and the dwarves stiched up his mouth. So there is one example of Thor tricking Loki, as I expliained earlier on Loki is a trickster and a shapeshifter he would have used trickery to try and escape.

Originally posted by Newjak

And your 25 points none of them actually say Thor is smart. Oh he uses his power to control the elements big woopie-doo like you really have to be smart to do that

So the elements arent important. The elements are evrywhere, therefore if they were not controlled properly evrbody would die.


Originally posted by Newjak

And as for offending you I could give to cents about your feelings about something. I'm a christian and people tell me things about Christ making fun of him I don't like it but it is the way of the world and I just let it slide and take it in stride. Perhaps you could learn some of the samething

Well I will get offended because you came here looking for trouble, if you are having a laugh I dont mind, but if you are trying to give your ego a boost by putting me down, I will get offended. Alot of the time you have been twisting things around, ignoring important points and looking for excuses to insult me.

Lets have a look at the points you have ignored.

Originally posted by Alfheim


There is also the issue of viking law. I showed you how complicated it could be you did not address any of my points.

I even wrote this out in bold for you to read. I also wrote out viking law in bold and bolded the important bits. Oh well lets do it again.

The lawspeaker presided the Things, worked as a judge and formulated the laws that had been decided by the people. The lawspeaker was obliged to memorize the law and to recite it at the Thing. He was also responsible for the administration at the thing and for the execution of the decisions, and it was his duty to safeguard the rights and liberties of the people and to speak in their behalf to the king or his representative.

So all that sounds simple to you does it? He has to memorise vast amounts of information. He has to forumulate the law into a choerent structure. He has to act as judge and he has to do administration as well. As I pointed out you there would be loads of different laws for different things. Marriage, inheritance, land, housing etc.

As you can see you would have to be very intelligentt to do this. If Thor was of average intellignece why would he be the patron god of law.

Then theres this:

Originally posted by Alfheim


Furthermore according to the Barlams saga Thor is the father of the norns. I repeat its not just an issue of him just being the father myths are also symbolic . In some myths the Norns are more powerful than the gods.



Again....

http://faculty.gvsu.edu/websterm/ways.htm

The mythologist Joseph Campbell sees myth as metaphors or symbols of the unknown. This "unknown" is located in two places: in the spiritual realm and in the depths of the human psyche. Campbell reasons that even though the divine, or "God," or whatever you call it (him/her?) is ultimately unknowable by human thought, men still try to create images of the Godhead. These images and stories may vary from culture to culture, but they remain valid as metaphors which express our experience of something beyond the human. Remarkably, many of themes and motifs in myths reappear in stories told by widely scattered peoples, which for Campbell means that many of them must be inherent in the human psyche. Thus, myths can also tell us truths about our own psychology. (See item # 10 below and the page on "The Hero's Journey," where I discuss Campbell's idea of the hero.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norns

The Norns live beneath the roots of Yggdrasil, the world tree at the center of the cosmos (although some accounts have it that they dwell above the arch of the Bifrost Bridge), where they weave the tapestry of fates. Each person's life is a string in their loom, and the length of the string is the length of the person's life.

Thus everything is preordained in the Norse belief system: even the gods have their own threads, though the Norns do not let the gods see those.

The norns are depicted as weaving the fates. Again weaving is symbolic in the sense that the norns have to do a complicated task. Thor is their father is also symbolic and considering the fact that Norns in some stories are more powerful than the gods says alot about Thor.

These images and stories may vary from culture to culture, but they remain valid as metaphors

To summarise:

1. Thor has tricked a dwarf. Dwarves can be considered to be smarter than the gods becsue they created the treasures and the gods didn't.

2. Thor has tricked a giant and I have proven that the majority of them are highly intelligent.

3. Eventhough Loki has tricked the gods before. Thor in another incident has been able to out smart Loki when he tried to escape the punishment of the dwarves.

4. There are examples of Thor being tricked but the above examples and others prove he can be just as smart as Loki and Odin.

5. If there are incidences of Thor being tricked by Odin this can due to bias of the writer.

http://home.earthlink.net/~asatru/thor/harbard.html

Odin and Thórr confront each other in a flyting (war of insults) and a mannjafnaðr
(a matching of men against one another with respect to accomplishments and prowess). Óðinn (Harbarð) seems to stand for the nobility, and Thórr for the yeomanry in this contest of eloquenceand wits. The author favours Óðinn, obviously, as Thórr is made to look a bit slow and foolish matching wits with the suave, locquacious and bitterly ironic God of Wisdom. The poem probably is an expression of the conflicts between the nobility and the yeomanry in Norway at this time, as similar conflicts did not exist in Iceland. The Poet, certainly, was retained by a nobleman.

Did Odin have more worshippers than Thor?

Originally posted by doctorstrongbad
Did Odin have more worshippers than Thor?

In general I dont think he did. I think in Sweden Odin was more popular than Thor. In Norway and Iceland he seems to be more popular. I know in Norway Thor was mainly worshipped by the common people so by default in Norway Thor was more popular.