Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Who would die first Anakin or Sidious, and they only have one lightsaber with, no interferance by anyone else, no force or, other weapens

While Anakin is already a top lightsaber duelist in the PT era, there are 3 that are still better than him. Those 3 would be Sidious, Yoda, and Mace. I think Sidious wins this with much difficulty.

what about Obi One Kenobi

I think there's a very, if not extremely good chance Anakin would beat Sidious in saber combat.

And no Obi-Wan is not a better saber duelist.

I agree, Anakin in the right frame of mind would beat anyone in the PT.

I dont, Theres only a good chance, and wasnt it stated some where that juyo form requires the intensity of form V?

Does it make any difference?

Yea wtf is the difference what Juyo requires? Anakin, in the right frame of mind, could beat anyone in the PT, which puts him at having a good chance to beat anyone (Excluding Luke and possibly a few NJOesk people) ever in all of Star Wars in saber combat. Anakin is a sheer saber master, he's got a natural talent that pretty much trumps almost anyone before or after him....if he's not acting like a whiny b!tch crybaby n00b that is.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
if he's not acting like a whiny b!tch crybaby n00b that is.

Lol.

Anakin could own luke anyday,

not NJO luke and what makes you think he will beat sidious? There are people in the star wars universe who use psychology in a fight as well

Well if Sidous won, then Darth Vader would not have been born. I think Sidious wins but barely escapes with his life.

This is tough for me. At first I want to say Anakin, given his beating Cin no problems, distracted, and with one hand. Also his victory over Dooku (anyone who can beat Dooku in saber combat has to be amazing, but, it's not just that. It's the novels description of the fight. Anakin thrashed one of the most powerful swordsmen with ease). But Sidious killed Agen (who beat Vos), Seasse, and, Kit (read CD) (all of whom were some of the most powerful swordsmen the order ever produced) in seconds, and went on to match Mace hit-for-hit in saber combat (but was beat due to shatterpoint). He also outlined Maul with his saber with uncanny speed and precision before Maul could react. I'm really not decided.

Where is the setting?

Edit: I think Anakin has marginally better saberwork, but, Sidious could use the enviornment and his words to help significantly.

Although I think Anakin is possibly a better duellist, Sidious wins this by experience, both in combat and in force knowledge. (Like enhancing his body more, like his speed and precision, and unnatural flips)

Anakin, in the right frame of mind, can beat anyone in the PT? Just because he curbstomped Dooku doesn't mean he can do the same thing to everyone else, Rampant. I hardly see him beating Yoda or Sidious in a full out fight - given Yoda's speed, agility, and ferocity as well as Sidious's much superior fighting tactics and Force powers as well as the obvious psychological domination.

Now, Anakin in the "right frame of mind" in a lightsaber match? Then, yes, he could probably take anyone in the PT without exerting himself completely. Hell. He'd probably beat or give anyone ever a hard time in a sheer saber duel.

Anyways, if Anakin is in the "right frame of mind", I'd say he takes this definately - of course, he has a longer time, as Sidious's tactics are better than Dooku's, his psychological skills and dominating presence are much superior, and he's solo in this fight.

Otherwise, Sidious likely takes it.

I'm really not sure. Probably Anakin, though only if he survives the initial onslaught.

Sidious obliterates him, really. The guy slaughtered some of the better PT swordsmen in seconds, and contended with Mace and Yoda. I don't see how Anakin could possibly stand a chance.

Originally posted by Gideon
Anakin, in the right frame of mind, can beat anyone in the PT? Just because he curbstomped Dooku doesn't mean he can do the same thing to everyone else, Rampant. I hardly see him beating Yoda or Sidious in a full out fight - given Yoda's speed, agility, and ferocity as well as Sidious's much superior fighting tactics and Force powers as well as the obvious psychological domination.

Now, Anakin in the "right frame of mind" in a lightsaber match? Then, yes, he could probably take anyone in the PT without exerting himself completely. Hell. He'd probably beat or give anyone ever a hard time in a sheer saber duel.

Anyways, if Anakin is in the "right frame of mind", I'd say he takes this definately - of course, he has a longer time, as Sidious's tactics are better than Dooku's, his psychological skills and dominating presence are much superior, and he's solo in this fight.

Otherwise, Sidious likely takes it.

Notice the word psycological? There you go, thats all sidious needs to do which is part of his arsenal. it would shake anakins state of mind and thus he would not be in the "right frame of mind" Note there are others who use psychology in a fight as well

I would say Sidious is at the very least, as good with Anakin if not better than him, and this is Sidious without practice for 13 years. I don't see how Anakin could be better than Sidious, Yoda, or Mace, in saber combat, much less force abilities.

Obliterates him, Faunus? In a Force-fight? Yes. In an all out fight? Probable. In a lightsaber fight? Doubtful. Very doubtful. Anakin defeated and killed Count Dooku in single combat (and, if you consider "the fight" starting when Kenobi was disabled and Dooku revitalized himself - it wasn't that long, either), and, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't you agree that Dooku was greater than Sidious (at least in swordsmanship)?

Sidious could win by virtue of his dominating psychological presence and superior tactics - but I seriously doubt that his raw saber powers are above Anakin's. No one in the PT is.

Anakin's raw abilities might be above everybody, but his experience isn't. I'm sure eventually if he stayed as a full human, he would have surpassed everybody, but at that time he was on par with Yoda, Sidious, and Mace, who all had a LOT more experience.

@ Jollyjim311



Are you purposely trying to irritate me with these statements like Agen > Vos. You know how I am,

Originally posted by Gideon
Anakin, in the right frame of mind, can beat anyone in the PT? Just because he curbstomped Dooku doesn't mean he can do the same thing to everyone else, Rampant. I hardly see him beating Yoda or Sidious in a full out fight - given Yoda's speed, agility, and ferocity as well as Sidious's much superior fighting tactics and Force powers as well as the obvious psychological domination.

Anakin obliterated Dooku - meaning (according to this bullsh*t novel which is canon) Dooku had no chance at all. Now Dooku is not leagues behind the eras best, Sidious and Yoda. If Anakin can beat Dooku with such obvious ease then I can see him easily being able to take on either Sidious or Yoda and winning. Psychological domination means jack - Dooku is a master of Dun Moch (as much if not more than Sidious) and it didnt help him at all. In fact it just pissed Anakin off.

Dooku isn't as good as Yoda nor Sidious.

I didnt say he was. I said he isnt leagues behind them.

And all I see is you posturing that Anakin will "easily" lay waste to Yoda and Sidious because Dooku got his ass kicked; it's not the same. Yoda and Sidious are more powerful - with two other advantages, one being that Yoda is much, much more experienced in combat than Dooku and Sidious is much more clever than Dooku is when fighting is an issue. Dooku is so wrapped up in himself that he automatically dismisses the power and abilities of his opponents. As I've said many times before, he could have feasibly defeated Anakin and Obi-Wan by bringing his superior Force powers and control to bear, but he didn't.

Facing someone such as Yoda in an all out fight would prove disasterous for Anakin, given that Yoda's experience makes Dooku's own (and in turn, Anakin's) appear pathetic at best. Sidious will be even more difficult to fight than Yoda - given that Sidious has no compassion, no restraint, and he is an extremely smart fighter. All out? Especially against Sidious? No. Anakin wouldn't win. Not even in the right frame of mind.



Riiight. Pray tell, is this the same intimidating Dun Moch-master Dooku who was terrified of Sidious? 'Cuz I think it is.

If Dooku were "more talented" in Dun Moch than Sidious, then that wouldn't be an issue would it? In fact, we could go so far as to say that Sidious was so potent that he had a natural dominating presence that made Dooku and Grievous complete wussies even when Sidious is lightyears away from them in distance. See Dark Rendezvous for Dooku pissing his pants when chatting to Sidious.

As far as manipulating emotions, it's another "no contest". Both of them are manipulators, true, but Sidious is above and beyond Dooku in that aspect as well - and Dark Rendezvous shows that Dooku got most of his "manipulating" skill from Sidious himself, who "taught" him how to do it.

Then, factor in that Sidious - unlike Dooku - intimately knows Anakin, and Anakin harbors a deep respect and affection for Sidious. Exploiting affection would bring greater results than exploiting anger.

So, please, Rampant. Dooku lost because he was cocky and because - in the right frame of mind - Anakin is a mile ahead of him in saber combat. Yoda, on the other hand, is considerably more powerful than Dooku - and has eons and eons of superior experience. And then there's Sidious, who is as powerful as Yoda is, with the additional advantages of being a smarter fighter, a much better manipulator, and completely directed for self preservation.

Originally posted by Gideon
And all I see is you posturing that Anakin will "easily" lay waste to Yoda and Sidious because Dooku got his ass kicked; it's not the same.

Im not posturing anything. I know that if Anakin was to fight Sidious or Yoda it would be an extremely difficult battle for both parties, regardless of the winner.



Yoda's experience will certainly help, but its certainly not going to be giving him any huge advantage - at least not to the point you are making it out to be. Dooku had decades of experience on Anakin but it meant nothing. Yoda had centuries of experience on Sidious yet he was left on his ass.
When you say 'clever' I presume you mean intelligent, tactical fighting. Yes Sidious is a very clever fighter, but so was Dooku to a certain extent (despite his arrogance), yet he was left with no hands, no head and a carcass burnt to oblivion. Again, I dont think that Sidious' clever fighting is going to give him the huge bonus that you make it out to be.



I agree.



See above. Yoda's experience couldnt beat Sidious and, from a certain point of view, couldnt beat Dooku (seeing Yoda wasnt able to capture/kill him). It will help but its not going to be enough to win him the fight.



Compassion? Perhaps, but I think that is clutching at straws. Anakins compassion is not going to effect him, assuming he is in the right frame of mind. Restraint? Anakin wtf pwned Dooku and was still said to be restraining himself - if I remember the novel correctly. So I think that Anakin has a very good chance at beating him. Sidious' force powers are better, but so were Dooku's. Superior force prowess is irrelevant if you dont get the chance to use them.



Irrelevant but I concede the point. I was going by the movies seeing I despise EU. From the movies Dooku clearly uses Dun Moch more in a battle, and by the looks of it more effectively. But if EU disagrees then so be it.



See above reasoning. Anakin obliterated Dooku and was said to still be holding back, going by memory(please correct me if I got that wrong). Dooku is not leagues behind Yoda or Sidious. Yes they are a good notch or two better but the gap in power levels is not large enough to save them from Anakin. Unless they can do what Dooku couldnt and use the force then I dont see them having a very good chance. But Anakin is so fast and so strong that I doubt that a force technique will be very practicle. Experience means jack as I explained. Sidious' smarter fighting might help him, but not a heck of alot. He would be more worried about blocking Anakins barrage of strikes.

It's interesting; earlier, you said Anakin would "easily" win. Now, it's difficult for both parties? Let's clarify: it would be difficult for both parties in a lightsaber duel. In a Force fight? Hell. No. And in an all out fight? Perhaps.



Two completely different situations. Yoda was "left on his ass" due to a tactical stalemate in which Sidious got the better end of the deal. It was not something that could have been controlled, and then you have to factor in that Yoda was combating someone who was just as powerful as he was, plus was the smarter and more ruthless fighter. That negated the "experience" and equated everything.

Count Dooku was facing someone more powerful than him in lightsaber prowess, physical skills, and stamina - and sealed his own fate with the constant taunting as well as his own arrogance.



Rampant, your bias is stretching the limits of my patience, but I want you to know that I am trying to be as kind as possible - but pull your head out of Dooku's ass! Dooku's arrogance is what limited his tactical fighting. You're trying to imply that Dooku and Sidious are on par with tactics, and interject a point that "Dooku is teh smart!!1", and I will agree - but Sidious is a much smarter fighter than Dooku. No, it's not close. No, Dooku's not on par. He has such a superiority complex that he literally does not take into consideration the skills of his opponents. 70 years of being virtually unchallenged can do that to a guy, and Dooku realizes he's either beaten or going to lose a handful of times (twice with Yoda, once with Mace, and once with Anakin).

And you don't think "clever fighting" is going to give him a huge bonus? That's a ridiculous assertion.



Why does that not surprise me?



You're comparing apples and oranges; Yoda and Sidious were virtual equals in power - with Yoda having more experience and Sidious being smarter. That's why the fight ended the way it did. Dooku knew he was beaten and that's why he fled. And, how did Yoda's experience fail him with Count Dooku? Both times Dooku fled against Yoda - it wasn't a lack of capability - it was compassion. Dooku endangered Anakin and Obi-Wan as a distraction and fled, forcing Yoda to save them than kill Dooku; the second time, Dooku activated a missile that was going to wipe out the Republic forces stationed on Vjun.



No. Sidious has no compassion, restraint, or a desire to make himself feel superior to Anakin. Considering that we know Sidious had no use for Anakin outside his sphere of influence, it is obvious that if Sidious absolutely knew that Anakin would not be returning - and Anakin attacked him - Sidious would cut Anakin down without a moment's hesitation, and bring everything he had against him to bear.

Also, Sidious is better versed in the Force than Dooku - and as we know - it is his preferred method of fighting (though obviously when confronted at point-blank with sabers, he'll go for his saber), whereas Dooku obviously goes for the saber first until he absolutely has to use the Force or unless he's showing off (a la AotC).

What's to stop Sidious from just blasting the frick out of Anakin when the fight begins?



"Irrelevent but I concede the point"? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense... It doesn't matter. Sidious is better versed in manipulation and psychological domination than Dooku, which makes your assertion that "Dooku is teh uber!" at it and "might be better than Sidious" rather ridiculous.



Again: you're comparing what Anakin did to Dooku to a hypothetical fight. We know Sidious is a smarter fighter than Dooku. We know he is more powerful than Dooku. We know Sidious doesn't have an overwhelming desire to prove his power over Anakin. We know Sidious doesn't have a point to make. We know Sidious is self-preservation oriented.

In a Force fight, Anakin has no chance in hell. In an all out fight, Sidious's superior command of the Force, decent lightsaber skills, and smarter techniques will let him win.

But, it doesn't matter, as this is a saber fight, and as I said before - Anakin will likely win, because I do take what he did to Dooku into consideration. But those were different circumstances.

Originally posted by Gideon Obliterates him, Faunus? In a Force-fight? Yes. In an all out fight? Probable. In a lightsaber fight? Doubtful. Very doubtful.Damn, missed the saber-only part. Well, then I guess he'd put up a fight, but I can't see him outdueling Sidious.

As a duelist? He's more efficient and effective, yes, and I can see him taking Palpatine in a similar situation, but I don't recall claiming that he was his outright superior, no.

What are "raw saber powers"? If you mean raw Force power, then yeah, Anakin has that in droves. Problem is, he obviously can't utilize it to its maximum potential yet due his lack of control and mastery. If he had indeed recognized his powers, he would have crushed Obi-Wan in their contest.

If you're referring to his ability as a combatant - he's hardly the best of the PT in that aspect. He can be easily manipulated and tricked into putting himself in detrimental situations, as was evidenced by his defeat at Obi-Wan's hands. Sidious was able to outmaneuver Yoda, who in the Emperor's mind was far more than a match for Anakin. Mace Windu's Vaapad and shatterpoint could probably make short work of him, and had Dooku not been the cocky, gullible S.O.B. that he was, I believe he could have defeated Anakin again.

Lastly, if you're thinking of saber mastery alone, Anakin is again outclassed by a few others. Obi-Wan is a contender, although I'll concede Anakin's swordplay may have surpassed his own. Yoda has almost nine centuries of practice under his belt, and again was thought by Sidious to be capable of "destroying" Anakin. Mace Windu created his own deadly style - with which he's accomplished innumerable feats - and Dooku himself, well, he's mastered the ultimate refinement of saber-to-saber combat in existence. And then of course, there's Sidious himself, who slaughtered some of the more skilled Jedi Masters of his time with contemptuous ease (in the most idiotically choreographed fight in history).

Again, I don't see Anakin defeating Palpatine.

TPM sidious alone would whoop anakins ass, He could move faster than the eye can see at that time, and ROTS sidious didnt touch a lightsabre for 13 years, yet being alone to pwn 3 masters quickly is pretty much impressive.


Again i dont get it, juz cuz dooku got his ass wiped by anakin why does it mean anakin can beat any1? You also seem to forget that djem so > makashi and it also contributes to dookus defeat

Originally posted by Gideon
It's interesting; earlier, you said Anakin would "easily" win. Now, it's difficult for both parties? Let's clarify: it would be difficult for both parties in a lightsaber duel. In a Force fight? Hell. No. And in an all out fight? Perhaps.

Well this is a lightsaber only duel so point moot. But even based on the assumption they are going all out then Anakin would still give them a sh*t of a time. I also agree that Anakin wouldnt stand a chance in a force only match, so its a good thing it isnt a force only match.



Wtf are you talking about? So it gets negated now because it doesnt suit your argument? Yoda had more experience than Sidious yet still lost. The End. Everything else is besides the point. If Yoda's experience was as important as you are obviously making it out to be then he wouldnt be in the position of a 'tactical stalemate'. All I gathered from that load of bullsh*t was that Yoda's experience is no longer godlike because Sidious is ruthless and smarter. Smarter perhaps. Ruthless? Well Yoda knew that Sidious had just wiped out his Jedi Order, killed his friends, destroyed the Republic and essentially created a dictorship. Im thinking Yoda would be pretty ruthless at that stage as well.



Now what are you on about? I said that Dooku is a smart fighter. If thats being bias then heck, I dont know what else to say. I acknowledge that Sidious is smarter, I was making a comparison that tactical abilities meant sh*t due to the fact that Dooku was a smart fighter and got absolutely obliterated. I dont think that Sidious' tactics are so much better than Dooku's that they are going to save him.



No, I wasnt. Perhaps you better read a bit more carefully due to the fact I said no such thing. So how about you stop putting words in my mouth to suit your argument.



No shit sherlock.



Here we go again. I never said Dooku was on par so stop making shit up. I said that both Dooku and Sidious were smart fighters, I thought the fact that Sidious would be smarter would go without saying. Obviously not. . So here we go. For the record Dooku is not as smart as Sidious. Happy now? Good, perhaps now you can stop blatantly making shit up.



No, I dont think it is going to give him a huge bonus. A bonus perhaps, but certainly nor enough to outright win him the match. As said, Dooku was also a smart fighter but got destroyed.



Yoda went after Dooku to capture him and stop the war. He was unable to do so. Yes he bet Dooku but he wasnt able to acheive what he wanted, despite your whole 'experience is teh uber' argument. So my point originally was that experience wasnt everything and it still stands.




Yes, but the same is likewise. If Anakin was 'in the zone' and truly wanted to kill Sidious then he wouldnt be worried with compassion, superiority etc. Although I am assuming that Anakin does not want Sidious alive for Padme, otherwise this theory admittedly goes out the window. Also Anakin kept much of his power under restraints, yet was still easily able to beat Dooku. If he went all out on Sidious, all restraints gone, then I honestly dont see how Sidious has a chance. Sids can have all the ruthlessness and lack of compassion in the world, its not going to negate the fact that Anakin is simply better than him.



Yes. I do agree that Sidous is better than Anakin with the force, and it would be possible for him to beat Anakin at the beginning of the battle with the force. But I dont feel this makes him a better fighter overall, when I am adament that if they got into a proper duel Anakin would win.



Nothing. You are competely right. But this doesnt mean Sidious is better. Dooku could have done that to Anakin in ROTS, but 90% of this forum is convinced that Anakin is still better.



Wtf. I conceded the point because A) you were right and B) it was irrelavent. So what the f*ck are you talking about now?




You are correct. But if Sidious was unable to beat Anakin with the force before the battle begun, then I think that Dooku's death will play out again. Anakin was holding back against Dooku yet still utterly destroyed him. If Anakin was going full out on Sidious all of the traits mentioned will be useless.



Agreed.



Well it seems we shall have to agree to disagree. I think that unless Sidious can eliminate Anakin immediately via the force then he will lose. Much the same as Dooku.



Different circumstances yes. But still circumstances that can easily be played out again.

Yea what the hell? No one is saying Anakin beats Yoda or Sidious in a full out fight, only possibly in a lightsaber duel. Its obvious he gets his ass handed to him in an all out fight with Yoda or Sidious, but a lightsaber ONLY duel is a different story. Anakin possesses the talent and skill to best both Yoda and Sidious in lightsaber combat, given that his head is in the right place.

Given that his head is in the right state? Sidious can use psychology to change that

Dooku tried that - didnt help him much.

"You have hate, you have anger" is called using psychology? What i meant is that if they used it to snap his mind to make him like what he is when he fought obi wan

I can. Well, it depends. I definately think that when Anakin reaches the same mental clarification that he had in his fight with Dooku - he'd beat Sidious without extreme difficulty in a lightsaber match. However, this completely depends on Anakin's state of mind, given Sidious's own talent with a lightsaber and psychological domination that he would likely use to his advantage.



As a swordsman (I consider a "duelist" to also include Force power - where Sidious is considerably above Dooku). I consider Dooku and Sidious to be on par, given that Dooku fled from Mace on Boz Pity, Sidious lost to Mace in lightsaber combat, and Sidious was able to stalemate Yoda in lightsaber combat (as far as we know) whereas Dooku was unable to beat Yoda in either AotC or on Vjun (a planet steeped in the dark side).



What I mean by "raw saber powers" is that Anakin's talent for swordsmanship is peerless in the PT (including the likes of Yoda, Sidious, Mace, and Dooku) - given that Anakin was able to hand Dooku's ass (or in this case, hands and head) to him on a silver platter in the end of that fight. The novelization says that "Dooku is dead. The rest is mere detail."

But Anakin's psychological inferiority and (in my opinion) his stupid-ass tactics are what get him into trouble. Just plain ol' Anakin, I don't see him beating Sidious. Dooku-fight Anakin? I see him winning in about the same amount of time - if we exclude Sidious's penchant for manipulation.



Yes, but his loss to Obi-Wan was due to not any lack of skill, but by Obi-Wan's superior state of mind, his superior tactics, his knowledge of Anakin's maneuvers and fighting styles, and - of course - Obi-Wan's own considerable proficiency at Soresu (that the "efficient" and "effective" Count Dooku was completely unable to overwhelm in a lightsaber match, I might add). In an all out fight, indeed, Yoda would make short work of Anakin, and Mace likely would as well. Dooku could have won if he used his Force powers, but, no, I think his swordsmanship is inferior to Anakin's own.



Obi-Wan is not a contender; he won by virtue of superior psychology and tactics foremost, and lightsaber skills second. Yoda's speed and agility would overcome Anakin, but I doubt his "lightsaber skills" are beyond Anakin's. Mace? Probably, given Mace's own ferocity, superior experience, and how Vaapad is more dangerous and more powerful than any other lightsaber form. Dooku? In sheer swordsmanship? Again, it depends. Anakin won once he got "in the zone", so to speak. If that happened again, he'd curbstomp Dooku in my opinion in a sheer lightsaber match - and the same goes for Sidious unless Sidious can use his "smart" tactics to his advantage, but even then, I see him going down.



He's certainly capable of it.

Which Anakin are we talking about. Before or after he dons the Vader armor? Are we talking about after he goes good in ROTJ. If so probably wins.

Episode 3, before he's half dead death

Anakin can't kill anybody with his "potential". Sidious would take this. Even without the use of force powers (which I think is kinda weird, since I doubt any confrontation would go that way, but whatever), I still think Sidious would be the better lightsaber duelist.

So no active use of the force, right? Damn close imho.

Sidious was able to own Kit in seconds, who was a damn incredible swordsman, and dominate his entire fight with Mace, as well as briefly contend with Yoda.

Anakin was able to battle with Cin Drallig one handed, while physically choking a padawan with the other hand.

I'd go with Sidious, his feats with a saber are better, and there aren't really any strikes against him, whereas we have Anakin failing to defeat Obi-Wan, granted he was quite unlucky to lose like he did.

In a lightsaber only match Anakin takes this, he defeated Dooku , who i think is a better swordsman then Sidious and Mace(call me fan boy), butt in all aut fight with force powers Sidious owns him.
Anakin is the best lightsaber dualist, because he has mastered the lightsaber and can channel his incredible connection to the force(he can sense danger and can predict lighsaber strikes and bloke them quicker then anyone else) in to the lighsaber, butt he hasn't mastered force powers and thus cant channel his connection to the force like with the lightsaber.

I hope this maked sense.

The text might do, but not the picture!



And you said "butt" again!

Nick Gillard puts Dooku as a level 8 while he puts Yoda/Mace/Sidious as level 9 (swordsmen). So actually Mace > Dooku in a swordfight, and so does Sidious. Still, if Anakin was in the state he's in when he beats Dooku I'm thinking he could likely take Sidious. But if he's in his mustafar state he loses for sure.

My whole thing is, we didn't get to see what Anakin could really do in the temple. We saw a 2 second clip rather than the whole fight, as we did with Sidious vs Mace's crew. I don't want to claim the whole proof of absence shit, but they showed Sidious kill those masters (who were not on Cin's level) yet we saw nothing from Anakin. And letting someone jump at you and pause then lunge forward to kill you, then to me, you're not a great master. Readiness is part of fighting, in which case here they even had their sabers out already. For instance, in the hallway of Palp's office when Anakin drew his saber on him, i think there would be little that could be done by Palps to prevent anakin from killing him.
Also, being a psychological monster has no bearing in a saber duel. If you have to think about fvcking with someone's mind, that means you're not giving full attention to your own blade work, or your opponents for that matter.
AS far as compassion, i don't think Anakin really had any for Sidious near the middle and end of the movie, it was more-so for Padme (as to why he didn't just kill Sidious). So i don't think that would be much of a factor in the fight. I'd say Anakin takes this with moderate difficulty just because of who Sidious is and how good he was. Unfortunately for him, its not good enough against Anakin. (in saber only mind you)

And why would he lose for sure on mustafar? He lost due to his mental state, not necessarily the geographical location. He made a dumb mistake trying to be a badass and, imo, show off for OB1 showing that he is/was worthy of that Master rank.

If Dooku is level 8 then which level is Obi Wan who isn't as good as Dooku, then where is Maul, Obi Wan is better then him, and where is Qui-Gon Jinn, who is even lesser lightsaber dualist then Maul. And which level are Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin in my opinion Maul can beat all of them one to one. What did Mace take with him level 4 jedi.
Nick Gillard isn't 100% cannon, wasn't this argued here before.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
If Dooku is level 8 then which level is Obi Wan who isn't as good as Dooku, then where is Maul, Obi Wan is better then him, and where is Qui-Gon Jinn, who is even lesser lightsaber dualist then Maul. And which level are Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin in my opinion Maul can beat all of them one to one. What did Mace take with him level 4 jedi.
Nick Gillard isn't 100% cannon, wasn't this argued here before.
Kenobi's also a level 8, remember that Dooku only beat him with the Force, not with a saber, and that two people can both be level 8's and one of them can still be stronger than the other and just be a higher level 8. Gillard didn't say what maul or QGJ are. No, Agen, Saesee and Kit aren't level 4 Jedi, their actually really strong, ROTS just portrays them poorly, I'm sure people would classify them as 7's or 8's. No, Nick isn't 100% canon, but I think he's C-Canon, right?

Afterwards he engaged Count Dooku blade-to-blade. The two grand duelists fought briefly to no advantage until two IG-100 MagnaGuards interrupted and dragged Windu over a cliff into a large crater.

Eventually, Windu engaged General Grievous again during the Battle of Coruscant. In Star Wars: Labyrinth of Evil, Windu battled Grievous blade-to-blade on top of a train, a duel that ends in a stalemate.

His combat style makes him one of the deadliest warriors in the galaxy only behind Yoda and Dooku in combat.

During the time of the Confederacy Crisis, It was said that aside from Yoda, only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground.

Only the last is from Dooku Wookieepedia, the others are from Mace Windu wikipedia.

I don't see Grievous stalemating Dooku.
Its not that i don't like Mace, you could say i am his fan boy. He is my second best character, but i like Dooku even more.

In terms of pure skill with a blade, I would say Dooku has this over Mace. But the physical strength in Mace's form, its effect on darkside users and his shatterpoint ability will more than likely give him a slight advantage in a sword fght. However I think that Dooku has the better force mastery, therefore in and all out fight the two would stalemate.

What?! Dooku has more force mastery than Mace? How the hell do you figure? People seem to forget that his style relies heavily on the force. He created the deadliest form that takes the user to the brink of the darkside. Windu has to have exceptional lightside force power to resist the temptations of the darkside, some thing Count 'boy toy' Dooku, couldn't do. And don't give me that "Dooku uses lightning" crap, cause just because Mace doesn't use it, doesn't mean he cant. Yoda obviously knows how to do if he can block it with his hands (just an example that you don't have to utilize to understand) and if they are basically on par, I'm quite sure Mace can do the same. Mace was powerful enough in the force and overall to become the youngest Council Master in the history of the order. Thats pretty impressive. And Dooku wasn't that much older than him either. And i hate using A>B>C arguments, but if Mace beat Sidious, who is in fact marginally over Dooku, I don't see him losing everytime. I know Dooku beat him once when he was young, but i also believe that Mace returned the favor. Also, Dooku flees when he knows he cant win, hence having the two droids throw mace in a pit/crater. If there is an advantage either way, i doubt it's very much.

But what does this have to do with Anakin and Sidious? Anakin is a level 9, but lost to a level 8, so those numbers mean dick. And we all know that Anakin is a better sword fighter than OB1, even though their styles are extremely different.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
What?! Dooku has more force mastery than Mace?

I beleive thats what I said.



Oh, im sorry I wasnt aware that creating a form, albeit (arguably) the deadliest, made you an uber force master. It takes him to the brink of the dark side as you said. The brink. He does not emerge himself in the darkside and learn what it has to offer. He is only learning one half of the force so to speak - whereas Dooku is knowledgable in both ares.



You are heavily implying that Dooku couldnt resist the temptation to turn and to become a Dark Lord of the Sith. As far as I was aware it is not known when or why Dooku came under the tutelage of Sidious. There is every possibility that he openly wanted to learn the dark side of the force. In fact I think this is quite probable due to his pride and desire to become more powerful than everyone else.



What sort of shit logic is that Subjekt. If he doesnt use it then I think it is safe to assume he doesnt know how. Where would he have learned it from? Who would have taught him to master it etc etc. While your point is correct in some cases I think you are clutching at straws here.



Thats a pretty big assumption with next to no evidence to back it up. Yoda is better than Mace, is described as 'the greatest force user the dark side had ever encountered' (or something like that), is the Orders Grandmaster, and is 800+ years old. I think that it is reasonable to assume that Yoda knows alot of things Mace doesnt.



Thats feat wars. I could say that Dooku was 'The Orders greatest student and greatest failure' as described by Yoda. It doesnt really hold much water in a duel (although still menas more than what you posted).



What do yuo mean. Dooku is a good 30 - 40 years older than Mace.



I havent read the EU that deals with battle. I was under the assumption that they were stalemating and that Dooku needed to leave because of Republic forces - hence he used the Magnaguards. Feel free to correct me though.

I would just like to say that I agree with Darth Subjekt.


I thought his goal was to destroy the Sith from the inside, but he failed when Sidious seduced him to the Dark Side.
That could mean he was the greatest failure during the time that Yoda and Mace led the Jedi Order, and maybe he was a greater student that Mace was but later Mace got stronger?

30 years, yes.

Doubtful, as in the frame before the duel Dooku seems very eager to enage the Jedi in a saber duel, yet quickly changes his mind after a fairly short duel with Windu. Why would he change his mind so quickly unless he was losing? I think it was probably similar to how he ran from Yoda in AOTC.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I beleive thats what I said.
Let the games begin.


Originally posted by Rampant ox
Oh, I'm sorry I wasnt aware that creating a form, albeit (arguably) the deadliest, made you an uber force master. It takes him to the brink of the dark side as you said. The brink. He does not emerge himself in the darkside and learn what it has to offer. He is only learning one half of the force so to speak - whereas Dooku is knowledgable in both ares. Exactly, it took him to the brink as to not plunge yourself into the dakside, having that much control over yourself and the force to not be seduced by its power and appeal. Last i recall I didn't say "uber" at all, I'm not going to sit here and say he pulled 15 moons out of orbit or some shit, I'm saying he's extremely powerful, perhaps more-so than Dooku. And for the record, I am FAR from a Mace fanboy, this very well may be the first time I've argued for him.



Originally posted by Rampant ox
You are heavily implying that Dooku couldn't resist the temptation to turn and to become a Dark Lord of the Sith. As far as I was aware it is not known when or why Dooku came under the tutelage of Sidious. There is every possibility that he openly wanted to learn the dark side of the force. In fact I think this is quite probable due to his pride and desire to become more powerful than everyone else.
That's exactly what i'm implying. As a Jedi you are fully aware that the Sith are Evil, right? And as the creator of Star Wars has said multiple times, no one that does evil thinks that they are evil. While he cant speak intelligently about every human on Earth, he can certainly relate that to his universe of characters. SO...a Jedi knowing right from wrong, would be hard pressed to willfully join the side of evil, hence not being able to resist the seduction of the darkside. And your point defeats itself. His pride you speak of, is not something Jedi should have, and wanting to be the best and more powerful isn't a Jedi like trait, so i doubt he had those feelings his entire Jedi career. You can want to be the best jedi you can be, but to seek more power than all is not jedi like. So knowing this, he would also know that using the darkside would destroy himself, thusly not being able to be more powerful than everyone else. I hope that came out the way I wanted it to. lol.


Originally posted by Rampant ox
What sort of shit logic is that Subjekt. If he doesn't use it then I think it is safe to assume he doesn't know how. Where would he have learned it from? Who would have taught him to master it etc etc. While your point is correct in some cases I think you are clutching at straws here.
It's perfectly good logic. I know how to cheat on my wife, but i don't do it. I know how to snap a neck, but i don't do it. I know how drive a car into a crowd of people i don't like, but guess what...i don't do it...see where I'm going? After 800 years, I'm sure Yoda knows all the darkside moves in order to know how to defend against it, and as a good leader, I'm sure he would teach his second in command these techniques in case he (Yoda) died, so mace could pass the training along if need be. If anyone has straws in their fingers, its you my friend. Please don't turn this in to a Planet debate.


Originally posted by Rampant ox
Thats a pretty big assumption with next to no evidence to back it up. Yoda is better than Mace, is described as 'the greatest force user the dark side had ever encountered' (or something like that), is the Orders Grandmaster, and is 800+ years old. I think that it is reasonable to assume that Yoda knows alot of things Mace doesn't. It doesn't alter the fact that you can only learn so much. And learning more techniques, doesn't make you stronger in the techniques that you both know. If me and you both mastered a 3-point jump shot, and then i mastered hook shots, that doesn't mean that my jump shot is automatically better than yours. While Yoda knows more, i believe the degree to which they both have mastered the force is pretty close, with the advantage going to Yoda.



Originally posted by Rampant ox
Thats feat wars. I could say that Dooku was 'The Orders greatest student and greatest failure' as described by Yoda. It doesn't really hold much water in a duel (although still menas more than what you posted). It's not a feat war at all. One is a fact, one is an opinion. The FACT that Mace was the youngest appointed Jedi master council member, speaks volumes for is abilities, and shows that he did something that Dooku couldn't do. The other is fallible being that its the opinion of an in universe character. And the extensive force and saber prowess needed to be granted a master rank, and then a council member, has everything to do with a duel. What do Jedi fight with? The force and sabers.


Originally posted by Rampant ox
What do yuo mean. Dooku is a good 30 - 40 years older than Mace. OK, 30 years, not long in comparison to someone with 800 years of life. Dooku only mastered so much in that time.



Originally posted by Rampant ox
I havent read the EU that deals with battle. I was under the assumption that they were stalemating and that Dooku needed to leave because of Republic forces - hence he used the Magnaguards. Feel free to correct me though. Well fleeing is fleeing. Its being scared and knowing you'll lose. Not something who is vastly superior to his opponent does.

In the databank it states...
It is yet unknown when exactly Dooku abandoned himself to the dark side of the Force, though he had apparently experimented with forbidden lore in the past. Rumors abound that Dooku was familiar with Sith teachings stored within a dark Holocron kept in the Jedi Archives
According to that nobody knows when he turned to the darkside. Also he was already familiar with a sith holocron, further strengthening my argument that he became a sith for power more than anything.



It makes no difference. I was just saying it to show that feat wars mean little.



Like I said, I havent read about it. But im still not taking your word for it.

Yoda simply outclassed Dooku. Mace cant do that. Besides, Tyranus wasnt planning to fight Yoda (or the duo for that matter) in the first place anyway.

Not taking his word for it? Why's that, Rampant? You don't want your point to take a nosedive?

Well, let me verify it: he's right. The last time I checked, Dooku says "leave the Jedi to me", and then engages Mace. And after a brief duel, he has his Magnaguards blindside Mace and do a kamikaze off of a cliff.

Dooku probably has Mace by a noteworthy amount in the Force (though it is far from outclassing him, if you've read Shatterpoint), but that's it.

Vaapad > Makashi. Period. Vaapad is "the deadliest", according to Yoda, and it turns the weapons of darkness into weapons of the light. Meaning it's gonna work really well against Dooku, which is likely why he kept their duel so brief.

Physical strength, and combat? Mace has Dooku - easily - by miles and miles. Mace > Anakin, actually, by a decent amount in physical prowess.

Swordsmanship? "Creating" your own form speaks of outrageously impressive skills as a swordsman and prodigy, and he was the youngest member of the Jedi High Council ever according to RotS. Dooku's pretty damn good, but I wouldn't say he's better.

In an all out fight? Mace would likely beat Dooku.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Let the games begin.

Excellent.




True, but I am looking at it from a different point of view. Dooku may or may not have been seduced (it isnt specified). But either way, in turning to the dark side Dooku was given full access to sith abilities and was taught them by the greatest Sith ever to live. Mace on the other hand is limited to what he can learn due to his Jedi restrictions.



Haha fair enough. I just thought that I would add a little bit of hyperbole to suit my argument.



Hmph. Yoda is the Grandmaster. It is made perfectly clear by Mr Lucas that he is the best Jedi ever to have lived up to that point. For that to be apparent, I find it very likely that he knows a huge variety of things that Mace doesnt. It doesnt matter if Mace is second in the Order or not. Yoda is older, wider and pretty much better than Mace in every aspect. My point is that because the Orders top dog Yoda knew hot to repel and probably conjure lightning it on no way means that Mace has the same ability.




*Shudders at the thought*




Yoda is a fair notch or two above both Mace and Dooku I feel. Also why does the advantage go to Yoda - you didnt specify. Could it be that Yoda knows more techniques? Or is it because Yoda is older ans wiser? Well news flash, Dooku has both these things on Mace anyway.




Perhaps. But because Dooku didnt make the Council Does not mean that Mace is better. It is heavily implied that Qui-Gon takes after the views of Dooku - and that the only reason he didnt make the Council was because of this. I think it is very probable that the same thing applies.



No. Ki-Adi made the Council. Does that make him better than Dooku. Hell no. He made the Council because of his vast wisdom. In fact Dooku is wiser and more powerful than everyone on the Council bar Yoda, Anakin and in your opinion Mace. My point is that being on the Council doesnt give you the edge in the duel over someone that isnt.



With age comes experience. While this 30 years alone certainly isnt going to win Dooku the fight, its better to have it up your sleeve than not.



Well again, its up to interpretation on wheteher he was fleeing and for what reasons. Yoda fleed his battle with Sidious. It didnt mean that Yoda was scared and it didnt mean he was going to lose.

EDIT: I know I missed out a paragraph. Ive got to go but ill get back to it later.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Excellent.
yea, i got nothin clever here, lol.



Originally posted by Rampant ox
True, but I am looking at it from a different point of view. Dooku may or may not have been seduced (it isnt specified). But either way, in turning to the dark side Dooku was given full access to sith abilities and was taught them by the greatest Sith ever to live. Mace on the other hand is limited to what he can learn due to his Jedi restrictions. Well, Anakin was limited in what he could do compared to Dooku, and look what happened. Sith abilities don't make or break a fight. In fact, that would only help mace being that he is the super conductive loop of darkside powers. Thanks for the help!



Originally posted by Rampant ox
Haha fair enough. I just thought that I would add a little bit of hyperbole to suit my argument. uh huh...I'm on to you, you little dooku loving gnome. lol don't try that shit with me



Originally posted by Rampant ox
Hmph. Yoda is the Grandmaster. It is made perfectly clear by Mr Lucas that he is the best Jedi ever to have lived up to that point. For that to be apparent, I find it very likely that he knows a huge variety of things that Mace doesn't. It doesn't matter if Mace is second in the Order or not. Yoda is older, wider and pretty much better than Mace in every aspect. My point is that because the Orders top dog Yoda knew hot to repel and probably conjure lightning it on no way means that Mace has the Same ability.
You're missing my point completely. It is absolutely retarded to have ONE person know the key to defend against your arch enemies attacks. What I was saying about Mace being second in command is, that as the #2 guy, I'm sure Yoda would share and teach strategy and training with him, much like when Generals share info and tactics with other high ranking officers. I'm not disputing Yoda's credentials, as i am well aware of his resume, what I am saying is that because Yoda is the top guy and has all this experience, does not mean that Mace cant know it. There's more reason to suspect that Mace would know it rather than not know it. I'm sure Yoda's not a greedy little leprechaun that doesn't want to share and wants to hoard all his knowledge.



Originally posted by Rampant ox
*Shudders at the thought* i chipped a tooth shuddering...its that bad.




Originally posted by Rampant ox
Yoda is a fair notch or two above both Mace and Dooku I feel. Also why does the advantage go to Yoda - you didn't specify. Could it be that Yoda knows more techniques? Or is it because Yoda is older ans wiser? Well news flash, Dooku has both these things on Mace anyway. experience. Thats what sets him apart along with just having more life. Centuries is a lot more than decades, and being that we don't know how long it takes to master a technique, it's kind of moot. As far as being wise, or intelligent, they never showed us their SAT scores, so we can only speculate on their independent intellect. Being wise however is different, and is what i would call Yoda. Yoda has wisdom, Sidious, for example, has intelligence. Know what i mean? You don't know that if when Dooku reached 50 whether or not he kept learning new things (save for darkside), so you don't know Mace is compared to where Dooku left off.




Originally posted by Rampant ox
Perhaps. But because Dooku didn't make the Council Does not mean that Mace is better. It is heavily implied that Qui-Gon takes after the views of Dooku - and that the only reason he didn't make the Council was because of this. I think it is very probable that the Same thing applies. Maybe, however I'm not saying that being on the council makes you a god, I'm saying to have the exemplary skills to be appointed to it at such a young age, is a feat in itself. If someone wasn't offered a position, its for a reason.



Originally posted by Rampant ox
No. Ki-Adi made the Council. Does that make him better than Dooku. Hell no. He made the Council because of his vast wisdom. In fact Dooku is wiser and more powerful than everyone on the Council bar Yoda, Anakin and in your opinion Mace. My point is that being on the Council doesn't give you the edge in the duel over someone that isnt.
Again, didn't say the council made you better. And if Ki has "vast wisdom" how can you say that Dooku automatically has more? Again, we don't know what they know. And like i said before, the council doesn't make you a billy badass, but if at a young age you display all those facets of being a Jedi, at a master level, and are put on the council, you must be a badass in battle, as Mace has proved for himself.


Originally posted by Rampant ox
With age comes experience. While this 30 years alone certainly isnt going to win Dooku the fight, its better to have it up your sleeve than not. Oh definitely its good to have, but as you said it most likely wont be the deciding factor in a fight. Also, we don't know how many fights they've each had. If mace had a significant amount of fights more than Dooku, than that could help sway that door of experience. True?



Originally posted by Rampant ox
Well again, its up to interpretation on wheteher he was fleeing and for what reasons. Yoda fleed his battle with Sidious. It didn't mean that Yoda was scared and it didn't mean he was going to lose.

EDIT: I know I missed out a paragraph. Ive got to go but ill get back to it later. Yes, i believed that Yoda would have eventually lost in that setting. If he felt he would win, he would have stayed. Remember what he said to Sidious as he tried to leave? Something like , "if so powerful you are, then why leave?" Meaning if he knew he would win, why run. Same with Yoda. He knew he would have lost and left to hide on Dagobah. Not talking anything away from Yoda, of course.


just get to it when you can.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Boz_Pity

Here it says Dooku outmaneuvered Mace after a short duel, and left to save Grievous body, because Mace drooped a STAP on him.

I just wanna ask of comfirmation that Nick Gillard is even a source, cause from what I remember, he was just stating his opinion and has no canon influence on it...

I'm pretty sure it's just an opinion, but a pretty good one given his knowledge and experience with sword fighting.

Anakin destroys him in saber combat really. Sidious isn't fast or skilled enough to keep up with him.

Yeah um, Gillard said he would own Anakin in a sword duel, even though it might have been a joke, he wouldn't stand a chance. I see it as nothing more than an opinion!

Didn't he mean that he, Nick Gillard would own Hayden in a duel? If he meant that Cin would own Anakin, then he's either a moron, or was joking.

He said Anakin I believe, and he meant himself.

So he said that he, not his character, but he, Nick Gillard would own Anakin. Not Hayden, but Anakin? Well what's so wrong with that? Nick Gillard is a pretty awesome swordsman.

Yea Nick Gillard would defeat Anakin without the Force, yea right.
Anakin would rape him, Zett Jukassa would defeat Nick Gillard.

You do realise that because the movies are the highest form of canon, Anakin's ability with a saber is almost 100% dependant on Hayden's swordfighting ability. Nick Gillard is a much much better swordsman than Hayden, so logic dictates that he would beat Anakin in a duel.

Originally posted by allfg
So he said that he, not his character, but he, Nick Gillard would own Anakin. Not Hayden, but Anakin? Well what's so wrong with that? Nick Gillard is a pretty awesome swordsman.


Lol, you think someone who can see all his attacks in the future, read his thoughts, increase his speed and strenght above human levels, and has trained to fight to kill or disarm in professional jedi way's and been in wars and battle for the 3 last years will lose to some petty human who has been training sword arts at a circus? Yeah, Nick stands a chance.....


The movies are the highest canon, but you're taking that statement to literal. In there, it is Hayden, not Anakin, who fights. You cannot judge them by their actors performance, we have loads of other sources showing their power. Just taking those things above and you have Anakin for the win.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Boz_Pity

Here it says Dooku outmaneuvered Mace after a short duel, and left to save Grievous body, because Mace drooped a STAP on him.

1. Wookipedia is not a source. Meaning what it says = nothing, unless supported by canon sources.

2. "Outmaneuvered" could also translate to the fact that he got his henchmen to blindside Mace, which is what happened. Nothing in the duel suggested that Dooku was dominating it. He wanted to fight Mace, and yet after a brief match, decided to leave. That doesn't make him weaker, but that sure as hell is a sign that he's not stronger.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Well, Anakin was limited in what he could do compared to Dooku, and look what happened. Sith abilities don't make or break a fight. In fact, that would only help mace being that he is the super conductive loop of darkside powers. Thanks for the help!

You missed my point. Having knowledge of both sides is better than having knowledge of only one. This makes Dooku the better force user - especially when coupled with his two respective masters and the time he has been studying the force for.




Hmm well neither of us have any solid proof to support eiyther of our claims on this matter. I see where your coming from but I still disagree. Im willingly to let this point drop if you are.



Hahaha, didnt you see ESB where he starts hitting R2 with his cane for the food.



Im speaking in general here. Dooku has had 80 years to learn the ways of the force whereas Mace has had much less. Logically speaking Dooku is going to be better. Of course there are other factors to be taken into considersation as well. But then add in the fact that Dooku has learnt both sides of the force and that his masters were to the most powerful in the Unvierse than I think it is safe to say that Dooku has the edge here.



I agree with this.



Yes. But I doubt that he has. Dooku has had 30+ years more battles than Mace. Plus he had his own small army of Acolytes to train and he was the temples BM. I think it is reasonably safe to assume that Dooku has more comat experience anyway. Therefore point moot.



Possibly, but thats anther debate in itself.

Just for reference, here's the fight from the comic:
Dooku (to magnaguards): "Locate Grievous and Ventress, if they still live. Kill any Clones you encounter, but leave the Jedi to me."

He seems intent on killing a few Jedi, getting in some practice. Next frame:

http://swtimeline.ru/comics/Clone_Wars_Vol_7/Clone_Wars_Vol_7_107.jpg
Mace confronts Dooku and they fight. They appear to be fairly even. However, something about the way Dooku says "You won't kill me. Not today." makes it seem as if he believes that Mace does indeed have the power in him to kill Dooku, just "not today" because Dooku is about to flee.


http://swtimeline.ru/comics/Clone_Wars_Vol_7/Clone_Wars_Vol_7_108.jpg
Dooku realizes that he's gonna lose so he gets his goons to distract Mace while he can make his escape.

Actually, that's only one side of the story. The other could be, that Dooku realised he might as well lose as win, and did not want to take the risk.

Yes. Dooku is a sith and in his eyes he had everything to lose in that fight. Mace is a Jedi with no thought of self preservation and knew that killing Dooku would cripple the CIS and turn the tide of the war dramatically. Because of how close they are in terms of power and that there was a very good possibility that Mace could win, Dooku didnt want to take the risk.

Sidious takes this. Obi-wan defeated Anakin. Yoda said that Obi-wan was not strong enough to defeat Sidious, so Anakin isn't either.
OR
Sidious still takes this. Anakin lost to Obi-wan. Obi-wan got raped by Dooku. Dooku only lost to Anakin the fight was staged. Otherwise Dooku would have raped Anakin also. Sidious is about equal to Dooku so Anakin is weaker and loses.

Bottom line: Anakin loses no matter how you look at it.

Originally posted by kamikz
Actually, that's only one side of the story. The other could be, that Dooku realised he might as well lose as win, and did not want to take the risk.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Yes. Dooku is a sith and in his eyes he had everything to lose in that fight. Mace is a Jedi with no thought of self preservation and knew that killing Dooku would cripple the CIS and turn the tide of the war dramatically. Because of how close they are in terms of power and that there was a very good possibility that Mace could win, Dooku didnt want to take the risk.
Yeah, just like he ran ran Yoda in AOTC not because he was losing, huh, but because he didn't want to take the risk? Oh yeah, and the databank says Mace and Yoda are equal and Yoda was at least even with Dooku when they fought in Dark Rendezvous and that was when Dooku had the terrain advantage. Face it, Mace beats Dooku.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yeah, just like he ran ran Yoda in AOTC not because he was losing, huh, but because he didn't want to take the risk? Oh yeah, and the databank says Mace and Yoda are equal and Yoda was at least even with Dooku when they fought in Dark Rendezvous and that was when Dooku had the terrain advantage. Face it, Mace beats Dooku.

Yoda was different altogether. Dooku was already a fair notch below him on skill, had just fought Anakin and Obi-Wan and needed toe scape before Republic forces arrived.

Mace being equal to Yoda could mean a number of things. You and me both know that Yoda would beat Mace in a fight so that quote goes out the window.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Sidious takes this. Obi-wan defeated Anakin. Yoda said that Obi-wan was not strong enough to defeat Sidious, so Anakin isn't either.
OR
Sidious still takes this. Anakin lost to Obi-wan. Obi-wan got raped by Dooku. Dooku only lost to Anakin the fight was staged. Otherwise Dooku would have raped Anakin also. Sidious is about equal to Dooku so Anakin is weaker and loses.

Bottom line: Anakin loses no matter how you look at it.

that's the dumbest shit I've heard since i heard planet talk earlier. A>B>C agreements don't mean shit. Anakin is far superior to OB1, and Dooku. It was proved many times that the fight was not staged as there is no direct evidence to support such a stupid ass theory. Anakin pwned Dooku like a b!tch, and made a stupid decision while fighting OB1. Anakin can beat Sidious, especially when he's "in the zone."

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yeah, just like he ran ran Yoda in AOTC not because he was losing, huh, but because he didn't want to take the risk? Oh yeah, and the databank says Mace and Yoda are equal and Yoda was at least even with Dooku when they fought in Dark Rendezvous and that was when Dooku had the terrain advantage. Face it, Mace beats Dooku.



Lol! Because he runs off from a superior combatent in one case, it is totally impossible for him to run if he is not lesser powerful?


They are equal ON THE COUNCIL, not in terms of power. Yoda has been stated in G-canon material to be the strongest jedi up until Luke, Mace has admitted Yoda his better in sword and the force.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
that's the dumbest shit I've heard since i heard planet talk earlier. A>B>C agreements don't mean shit. Anakin is far superior to OB1, and Dooku. It was proved many times that the fight was not staged as there is no direct evidence to support such a stupid ass theory. Anakin pwned Dooku like a b!tch, and made a stupid decision while fighting OB1. Anakin can beat Sidious, especially when he's "in the zone." Subjeckt and dont forget sidious despite being a powerful sith lord would use psychology against anakin to get him out of his "clear minded" stage, Remember the duel with obi1? anakin did not make a bad decision, he simply was not "in the zone" and had he been in there, obi1 would have been wtf pwned.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
You missed my point. Having knowledge of both sides is better than having knowledge of only one. This makes Dooku the better force user - especially when coupled with his two respective masters and the time he has been studying the force for.
Not necessarily. Just because you have knowledge doesn't mean you can always effectively use it when needed. Autistic people are extremely smart in certain areas and they just cant use it. And you're trying to substitute quantity for quality. Just cause you know more doesn't mean you know "better".



Originally posted by Rampant ox
Hmm well neither of us have any solid proof to support eiyther of our claims on this matter. I see where your coming from but I still disagree. Im willingly to let this point drop if you are.
No, i cant on this one. Cause it's perfectly logical to assume so, which is what all this debates over battles are...assumptions. I see no reason why he wouldn't pass along his teachings.


Originally posted by Rampant ox
Hahaha, didn't you see ESB where he starts hitting R2 with his cane for the food.
lol, touche...


Originally posted by Rampant ox
Im speaking in general here. Dooku has had 80 years to learn the ways of the force whereas Mace has had much less. Logically speaking Dooku is going to be better. Of course there are other factors to be taken into considersation as well. But then add in the fact that Dooku has learnt both sides of the force and that his masters were to the most powerful in the Unvierse than I think it is safe to say that Dooku has the edge here.
Right, but do you think Sidious will teach him alot, or anywhere close to what he knows? Hell no, he even said when talking about his master, "unfortunately he taught his apprentice everything he knew, and then he killed him in his sleep." So why would he make the same mistake? 30 years isn't that much when you realize that you can only learn so much in a time span. Yes Dooku has had more time to hone his skills, but again, for those who aren't the chosen one, you can only get so good.


Originally posted by Rampant ox
I agree with this. Thats right, fool! j/k



Originally posted by Rampant ox
Yes. But I doubt that he has. Dooku has had 30+ years more battles than Mace. Plus he had his own small army of Acolytes to train and he was the temples BM. I think it is reasonably safe to assume that Dooku has more comat experience anyway. Therefore point moot. OK, you can doubt all you want, but we don't know for sure. You have to think though, when Dooku was coming up there was no Sith to fight, it was better times and not as hectic. So mace would have more experience with like type of fighters, dark Jedi, Sith, etc...therefore, point un-moot.



Originally posted by Rampant ox
Possibly, but thats anther debate in itself. Yea in that setting Yoda would have lost, and really, this is another debate in itself. We're supposed to be talking about how bad Anakin would ass rape Sidious.

@Kadesh, how much psychology did Sidious use when fighting Mace? None, With Yoda? None. So you cant say he'd do it with Anakin and throw him off balance. And yes Anakin did make a dumb move...he tried jumping over someone that was higher than him rather than to the side...and OB1 didn't get him that way, he did himself and the Padme situation. Sidious cant throw him off that badly.

Originally posted by kamikz
Lol! Because he runs off from a superior combatent in one case, it is totally impossible for him to run if he is not lesser powerful?


They are equal ON THE COUNCIL, not in terms of power. Yoda has been stated in G-canon material to be the strongest jedi up until Luke, Mace has admitted Yoda his better in sword and the force.

Really? where did he admit that? I remember Anakin saying, "As wise as master Yoda, and as powerful as master windu." giving the power to mace and wisdom to Yoda.

Yes but Anakin talks shit.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Really? where did he admit that? I remember Anakin saying, "As wise as master Yoda, and as powerful as master windu." giving the power to mace and wisdom to Yoda.



LOE, and in Shatterpoint.


That was Anakin, stating that Obi-Wan by AOTC is as good as Windu. I wouldn't take that comment so seriously if I were you.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
that's the dumbest shit I've heard since i heard planet talk earlier. A>B>C agreements don't mean shit. Anakin is far superior to OB1, and Dooku. It was proved many times that the fight was not staged as there is no direct evidence to support such a stupid ass theory. Anakin pwned Dooku like a b!tch, and made a stupid decision while fighting OB1. Anakin can beat Sidious, especially when he's "in the zone."

What the hell is your problem? I say one freakin thing and you come in here talking BS like you're some sort genius. How about proving Anakin is superior to Obi-wan or Dooku. And on the Dooku/Anakin fight, how about the fact that it was reffered to as a test for Anakin to see how strong he was. You know, whether or not he was strong enough to kill a helpless prisoner.

Do you mean he had just completely and utterly toyed with and obliterated them? he can't have been very tired, and what about in DR? When Dooku had the terrain advantage?

We also know that the fight would be very, very close.

But it's alot more likely that he ran because he was losing that there was to much at risk, what was at risk? He didn't flee during ROTS when he fought Anakin when just as much was at risk. And he was so intent on fighting a bunch of Jedi and winning the Battle of Boz Pity, why would he suddenly run unless he knew he was going to lose?

Mace also said Depa was better that he was with a blade, which is clearly untrue. Mace is always being humble, what he says cannot be taken as a fact when he is talking about his own power in comparison with someone else's.

And sorry if I sound at all crabby or irritated, I just finished debating with some dorks at TFN so I'm a bit angry because of how stupid they are.

He ran because the jedi wore regrouping, if he prolonged the fight Anakin would have joined Mace and then he would be easily defeated, Obi-Wan would probably stay behind and try to help Asajj Ventress.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=47&page=107

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=47&page=108

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=47&page=109

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=47&page=111

didn't Anakin in the novel stat that he actually wanted to kill palpatine and thought himself fully capable of that, Lucas I believe it is, has stated that anakin, while fighting Obi was well above sidious but when he lost his arms and legs and suffered those injuries his abilities dwindled to roughly 80% of palpatine.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Do you mean he had just completely and utterly toyed with and obliterated them? he can't have been very tired, and what about in DR? When Dooku had the terrain advantage?

We also know that the fight would be very, very close.

But it's alot more likely that he ran because he was losing that there was to much at risk, what was at risk? He didn't flee during ROTS when he fought Anakin when just as much was at risk. And he was so intent on fighting a bunch of Jedi and winning the Battle of Boz Pity, why would he suddenly run unless he knew he was going to lose?

Mace also said Depa was better that he was with a blade, which is clearly untrue. Mace is always being humble, what he says cannot be taken as a fact when he is talking about his own power in comparison with someone else's.

And sorry if I sound at all crabby or irritated, I just finished debating with some dorks at TFN so I'm a bit angry because of how stupid they are.



He didn't flee from ROTS, because....

A. Sidious had told him to fight them, is he gonna disobey his master now?
B. He really thought he was better than them, he called them "clowns".



How is Depa being a better swordsman than Windu wrong? Can you prove it? Windu lost didn't he? I know he was wounded, but so what? That doesn't mean Depa is worse. Prove it....


Nah, I'm actually glad to debate you, I just finished some over at the games vs, damn, the insults flew around like a freaking tennis ball. Sorry if I seem angry to, not my meaning...

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt

@Kadesh, how much psychology did Sidious use when fighting Mace? None, With Yoda? None. So you cant say he'd do it with Anakin and throw him off balance. And yes Anakin did make a dumb move...he tried jumping over someone that was higher than him rather than to the side...and OB1 didn't get him that way, he did himself and the Padme situation. Sidious cant throw him off that badly. Sidious did not need to use psychology against mace and yoda because it was not necessary. Against some body like anakin would, because sidious would know anakin is near unstoppable in a "clear state" of mind and thus would know how to change that

I agree, seeing as Sidious knows more about Anakin's secrets than anyone else (save for Padme), he would easily be able to break him. He didn't have such info about either Mace or Yoda...

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Yes. Dooku is a sith and in his eyes he had everything to lose in that fight. Mace is a Jedi with no thought of self preservation and knew that killing Dooku would cripple the CIS and turn the tide of the war dramatically. Because of how close they are in terms of power and that there was a very good possibility that Mace could win, Dooku didnt want to take the risk.

I disagree. Count Dooku left strict orders to the Magnaguards to "leave the Jedi to ." Now, why would he give that order unless he was absolutely confident of victory? You can't give insight into the character, as Dooku all but admits that Mace possesses the power and capability to kill him, but says that he "won't".

In fact, your whole "cripple the CIS" idea goes down the drain. Did you not read that excerpt? Dooku flat-out says that if Mace killed him today, it wouldn't matter, as he is but "one cog in a giant war machine". The only one who truly matters to the CIS is Sidious - not Dooku - and Dooku knows that well.

Dooku left because didn't think he could win.

Although I agree with most of that, you do have to count that Dooku was afraid for his life. His own life is important to him, I don't think he wanted to take a risk.

Originally posted by kamikz
Although I agree with most of that, you do have to count that Dooku was afraid for his life. His own life is important to him, I don't think he wanted to take a risk.

Dooku isn't Sidious, Kamikz. That Dooku willingly put himself in harm's way on multiple occasions without previously ochestrating the situation - his duels with Yoda and other Jedi - contradicts that notion. If he has no fear of putting his life on the line when fighting Yoda, then it has to be the same with Mace - who is weaker than Yoda.

Logical evidence concludes that Dooku left because he doubted he could win.

Dooku thought he was the most powerful jedi when he faced Yoda, Yoda proved him wrong. Other than Yoda and Windu, there is no one capable of killing him in his own mind, and that is true (except for Anakin), so I really doubt he was in as big a risk facing other jedi as in facing Windu.


But I just don't get how we can only assume he escaped cause he thought he would lose, when he might as well could have escaped because he thought he COULD lose....

Dooku fleeing is just like how Sidious tried to flee from Yoda in ROTS. Sidious ended up beating Yoda even though he tried to flee. The same very well could have happened with Dooku and Mace had Dooku not escaped.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Dooku fleeing is just like how Sidious tried to flee from Yoda in ROTS. Sidious ended up beating Yoda even though he tried to flee. The same very well could have happened with Dooku and Mace had Dooku not escaped.

No, it's not the same, Glentract.

Dooku had no problem facing off against Yoda (twice), and he had defeated Mace in combat before. Now then, why would he flee from Mace?

Consider: Dooku seemed calm throughout the duel on Boz Pity, he admitted to Mace that his death wouldn't matter, as he was a "cog in giant war machine" (thus proving that only Sidious really mattered to the grand scheme of things), and he strongly implied that Mace was capable of killing him. He didn't say "you can't kill me", but said "you won't."

Last I checked, Sidious only put himself in harm's way when he was confident that he had control over the outcome. He fled from Yoda because he didn't. Dooku chose to stay and fight even after Yoda had repelled all of his Force attacks and maneuvers. That is an obvious sign of courage.

Also: Vaapad's unique properties allow it to turn "the darkness" into a weapon of the light. Count Dooku is a Sith Lord, meaning that he will fall victim to Vaapad's properties just as easily as Sidious did. Mace's skills with Shatterpoint dwarf Dooku's own, and given that Vaapad "is the deadliest form" and "the hardest to master" makes me believe that - overall - it is the most potent.

Dooku hasn't got a single advantage against Mace in lightsaber combat. In Force combat? Of course.

Lastly, Anakin didn't beat Dooku "because the fight was staged".

I have no doubt Mace could beat Dooku in a saber duel, but I do not think that this duel has anything to support that with. I have had the exact same thoughts as Dooku (that is to say IF he believed he would lose) when playing things like Tennis or MGO, but many times I have won in the end, Mace could simply appear to him as superior, or Dooku wouldn't want to risk a loss when he actually could escape.

Originally posted by kamikz
I have no doubt Mace could beat Dooku in a saber duel, but I do not think that this duel has anything to support that with. I have had the exact same thoughts as Dooku (that is to say IF he believed he would lose) when playing things like Tennis or MGO, but many times I have won in the end, Mace could simply appear to him as superior, or Dooku wouldn't want to risk a loss when he actually could escape.

Again, Kamikz, he had the option of fleeing when facing an opponent stronger than Mace (Yoda), even after Yoda repelled and repulsed all of his Force attacks. Yet he chose to stay to fight, and the CIS was getting their ass stomped all over Geonosis at the same time.

Good point on why Dooku didn't run in the duel on the Invisible Hand, and yeah, I suppose maybe Dooku ran because the Jedi were re-grouping or because he was losing, I guess it's unknown. But He did say that Mace wouldn't kill him today which seems to signify in my mind that Mace could indeed kill him another die if they fought again. Also, I doubt Dooku would fare as well against Sidious as Mace did and Mace wouldn't lose to Anakin. Oh yeah: "You need to be either Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor." - George Lucas

So according to Lucas Dooku would not be able to compete with Sidious.

Originally posted by Gideon
I disagree. Count Dooku left strict orders to the Magnaguards to "leave the Jedi to ." Now, why would he give that order unless he was absolutely confident of victory? You can't give insight into the character, as Dooku all but admits that Mace possesses the power and capability to kill him, but says that he "won't".

Im also sure he was confident of victory. He is a hugely arrogant and prideful man whose abilities are nearly unrivalled in the whole galaxy.
However when he actually got into the duel he realised that Mace was a force to be reckoned with and he didnt want to risk his own life for nothing. Mace however didnt care if he died and knew that killing Dooku would be a blow to the CIS and the war.



True I guess. But you cant deny that if Dooku was in fact taken out of the picture the Republic would have elminated a huge threat. It certainly wouldnt stop the war but it would certainly sway it seeing Dooku was the top political figure.



Not that he didnt think he could win, but that Mace also had a chance of victory. He values his own life more than killing Windu.

Rampant, you and Glentract can cry "but Dooku didn't wanna risk his life!" from here to eternity; it doesn't change the fact that Count Dooku has willingly and knowingly put himself in dangerous situations with opponents who exceed him in both power and experience. It's not that he ran out of fear that he "might" lose. It seems to be that he ran out of fear that he would lose.



Count Dooku was the top figure of the CIS, but the true power was with Sidious. The council, Grievous, and Dooku himself were all terrified of Sidious and took their orders from Sidious. Thus, Sidious is the only necessary ingredient to the CIS. Given that Sidious's political machinations and abilities are beyond the scope of Dooku's own, I doubt it would be a crippling blow, given that Sidious was the one who secretly arranged most of the victories and constitutents of the Confederacy anyways.



He knowingly threw himself at Yoda (whom he knows to be stronger than Mace) twice, and he's beaten Mace before. The only logical conclusion is that he fled out of fear that he knew he wouldn't win, not that he "might".

Originally posted by Gideon
Rampant, you and Glentract can cry "but Dooku didn't wanna risk his life!" from here to eternity; it doesn't change the fact that Count Dooku has willingly and knowingly put himself in dangerous situations with opponents who exceed him in both power and experience. It's not that he ran out of fear that he "might" lose. It seems to be that he ran out of fear that he would lose.

So are you saying if that Dooku had a 50% chance of losing he would still stay and fight? Thats bullsh*t and you know it. Its more than logical to assume that at first Dooku truly beleived he could beat Mace due to his extreme arrogance. During the fight there was a very large chance that Mace could beat him. So he decided not to take the risk and leave. Not because he couldnt win, but because Mace also had a chance of winning and he didnt want to put his life in danger.

What you're saying is that because Dooku left it automatically meant he was going to lose. Thats poor logic.



Yes, I dont deny that Sidious was higher up and more importnant than Dooku. My point is that Mace killing Dooku would still be a blow to the CIS. Besides, Mace wasnt aware that Sidious was behind the CIS at that point - he beleived that Dooku was the one pulling the strings.



No. Your assuming that even if Dooku might lose he is still going to stay and fight. But if he was to flee it automatically means that he couldnt win.

Originally posted by Gideon
Again, Kamikz, he had the option of fleeing when facing an opponent stronger than Mace (Yoda), even after Yoda repelled and repulsed all of his Force attacks. Yet he chose to stay to fight, and the CIS was getting their ass stomped all over Geonosis at the same time.



And again Gideon, because he fled from a battle because he was lesser powerful once, it is impossible for him to flee unless he is less powerful in another fight?
As I said, at that point, Dooku believed himself to be superior to all other jedi. As Yoda and Dooku "stalemated" in force abilities, Dooku asked for a swordfight, he clearly thought he could beat his master in that category at least, but he couldn't, thus he fled.
I mean, if I was in that position, risking that I could be killed, or I could kill him, and had a couple of droids waiting for my command, I would command them to stall him, against Yoda he was alone, in a much harder position to turn his tail...


And I don't know why we are discussing this, thinking that you might be lesser than someody else doesn't mean you are, it is quite possible to overcome them with mind games or different tactics used.

I never said Dooku was more powerful. I more or less see him and Mace as equals with an even chance of one beating the other. Yes, Mace could kill Dooku, but just the same Dooku could kill Mace. Dooku had more desire to live though, so he fled before Mace, especially since he had the means to flee in this situation.

The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi(except for Yoda), perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground.

This is from Dark Rendezvous, where mace already has Vaapad and Shatterpoint .

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?books=360

Chapter 11

1 question, does that half ass bullshit statement from Lucas going to put anakin on par with sidious? the one from h\the rolling stone interview

No, hell no, Lucas never ment it that way, it is pretty obvious seeing that he has said and knows himself that Anakin is not on par with Sidious, why the **** would he suddenly say he was? Why does everyone take that bull quote so literally....

Look in the Movie Kamikz what is Sidious saying to Yoda "you will not stop me Lord Vader will become more powerful then either of us" clearly Lucas meant the not cyborg Anakin to be greater then Sidious, before his injury.

Did you miss the quote? People believe Anakin AT THAT STATE to be equal to Sidious. Sidious talks about Anakin's POTENTIAL to become the greatest ever, no one denies that, but people are looking at the quote in an interview of Lucas and are believing that Anakin already is equal to him, he isn't.....



And I don't understand where you wanna get with that post......?

Sidious meant that in couple of years, if he hadn't sustained those injuries om Mustafar, Anakin would became more powerful.
If he meant in the present he would say "Lord Vader has become more powerful then either of us".l
Anakin is better with a lightsaber, but Sidious is a lot better with Force powers and thus overall.

Originally posted by kamikz
Did you miss the quote? People believe Anakin AT THAT STATE to be equal to Sidious. Sidious talks about Anakin's POTENTIAL to become the greatest ever, no one denies that, but people are looking at the quote in an interview of Lucas and are believing that Anakin already is equal to him, he isn't.....



And I don't understand where you wanna get with that post......?

I just wanted to clear out a misunderstanding from my part. I have read the above post as you saying that Anakin would never be capable of defeating Sidious, and pointing out that Lucas clearly meant for Vader to be (become) stronger then Sidious, That was my point to clear out a misunderstanding.

No, YOU missunderstood what I said, completly. I said Anakin never surpassed Sidious, and he never did. I know that IF Anakin would have gotten his full potential he would have, but he didn't, so he never became as good as Sidious, and that was what I said!

Originally posted by kamikz
No, YOU missunderstood what I said, completly. I said Anakin never surpassed Sidious, and he never did. I know that IF Anakin would have gotten his full potential he would have, but he didn't, so he never became as good as Sidious, and that was what I said!

Then I didn't misunderstood you post, but what I am saying is that I misread the the others, but we understand each other now so never mind.

Ok, cool!