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Who would win?

I don't think Mace knows how to loop out of the Force so Nihilus drains him and wins.

Yes, unfortunately most Nilihus VS. threads arnt very fair, due to his unique, yet very powerful single ability. However, if you took his drain ability away then Mace would utterly destroy Nihilus in every other way.

This is like a joke thread. Nihilus rapes Mace.

Seraphim, you wouldn't happen to play MGO would you?

Originally posted by kamikz
Seraphim, you wouldn't happen to play MGO would you?

What is MGO an acronym for?

Ok, I guess you don't..... (You would know then).


I just got curious cause I thought I remembered your name from somewhere.

Originally posted by kamikz
Ok, I guess you don't..... (You would know then).


I just got curious cause I thought I remembered your name from somewhere.

Cool. What is MGO?

Metal Gear online!

There's a metal gear online?

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Yes, unfortunately most Nilihus VS. threads arnt very fair, due to his unique, yet very powerful single ability. However, if you took his drain ability away then Mace would utterly destroy Nihilus in every other way.

That's not true, even without the draining ability Nihilus is damn strong in the force. I mean, his TK abilities were strong enough for him to pull The Ravager as well as his entire fleet out of the mass shadows of Malachor. That kind of TK is uber, if he directed that into a force push, he'd most likely be able to crush Mace's entire body to pulp.

Unfortunately, Nihilus will win by draining Mace to death.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Yes, unfortunately most Nilihus VS. threads arnt very fair, due to his unique, yet very powerful single ability. However, if you took his drain ability away then Mace would utterly destroy Nihilus in every other way.
Mace has great edge in Saber Combat over Nihilus. But Nihilus has demonstrated greater mastery in the Force. His TK abilities were also awesome besides his amazing Draining ability.

I hate Nihilus though.

Originally posted by allfg
There's a metal gear online?

There sure is. You just need to buy MGS 3 Subsistence, and an internet adaptor for a PS2 (figuring if you have one of those), and then it's free to play online!

LOL, damn, I got my hopes up, I thought it was like a free online PC thing.

Oh, sorry then!

Yeah, Mace very, very likely loses this one.

Take away the drain and Nihilus would be destroyed, though

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, Mace very, very likely loses this one.

Take away the drain and Nihilus would be destroyed, though

Why would Nihilus be destroyed? We don't have evidence of his Lightsaber skills, so we just assume he's worse than Mace?

For good reason, yes

mace > nihilus in swordplay

Originally posted by Lightsnake
For good reason, yes

That's highly ignorant, to be honest.

Nihilus couldn't kill an unsuspecting Traya.
Mace can defend against Sidious' (a more powerful Sith) force attacks (of "unlimited power" using Vaapad.


Mace could eat him in saber combat.

Did nihilus drain traya? No, all he did was gave her a simple force push which weakened her connection to the force as you noticed when she was unable to reach out to her lightsaber with the force and also when she stated she was "Cast down and stripped of her power".

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Nihilus couldn't kill an unsuspecting Traya.

It's not that he couldn't, he didn't, based on the fact that he already thought she was dead. It's a testament to his arrogance and carelessness more than anything, not a lack of skill.



Proof that he's more powerful?



Right, and so because Sidious yelled out "unlimited power" in triumph, it means his power is unlimited.

Mace could eat him in saber combat.

Any proof for this?

Why do you think that Mace would destroy Nihilus in a Lightsaber duel? Because we cannot gauge Nihilus' skills, it's just as logically simple to say Nihilus could smash Mace because he'd ruin him force-wise.

I say we just stick to the neutral. Leave it be that we cannot determine who'd win in a Lightsaber duel.

Because we know Mace is a freaking monster and one of the best saber duelists who ever lived.

We cannot say the same of Nihilus

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Because we know Mace is a freaking monster and one of the best saber duelists who ever lived.

We cannot say the same of Nihilus

So you assume he's bad? That's not right, to be honest.

Well I'd say for someone to hold up an entire ship with the force, being greatly weakened and starved, and fighting the Jedi Exile, Visas and the Mandalore at once and even causing Visas to lose hope and see them losing this match, as a pretty strong person....

nihilus is slightly underrated in my opinion

For a guy who can destroy an antire planet, he is prety weak, the exile defeted him easily, and probaly to do those things that were mentioned he neds a lot of time to prepeare, like mediteting, he cant just do it in a moment, then exile woud be destroyed in seconds when Nihilus first saw himwalking to him on the bridge.

Actually, I think Nihilus does pull it instantly, the thing is that the Exile is a wound in the force, thus when Nihilus tries to drain him, he only grows weaker....

I my opinion, these ancient sith are eu and thus are overpowered, like Mace Windu destroys an entire army by himself in CWC, but we all saw from AOTC in Geonosis Execution arena their was 200 jedi and they would all be killed if it wasn't for the clones. And just because they are ancient, dosent makes them automatically more poverful, what did the force knowledge deteriorated in 1000 of years so the PT jedi are so weak against the ancient Sith-i dont think so.

Nope, that is not the case, heck I'd put most PT people above the ancient, at least if you compare average to average. But in this case, in Nihilus case, we don't have any other source than the one we got, and in it, he is pretty powerful. Not saying he is more so than Mace, but damn powerful indeed. I don't see Mace parrying his force drain, not for a second, and without it, I still don't see Mace pwning him....

But wasn't it said that Yoda had a defence for every darks side power, and it sas id wokipedia that Mace coud defend against Sidious force lightning with Wapad, turning his anger against him, why cant he do tha same against Nihilus, im my opinion weaker sith.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
But wasn't it said that Yoda had a defence for every darks side power, and it sas id wokipedia that Mace coud defend against Sidious force lightning with Wapad, turning his anger against him, why cant he do tha same against Nihilus, im my opinion weaker sith.

It's more than just your opinion. Sidious in the most powerful.

And other than your spelling mistakes, I don't necessarily see why Mace couldn't defend against it.

i agree that Sidious is the strongest sith, butt you have people here arguing this.
And for my spelling, i am not from English speaking country, butt will try my beast.

By RotS, he's clearly not the most powerful, and I'd argue against even his DE incarnation as well. It's in no way a fact. And what you need to get is that Mace Windu used a lightsaber defence for the lightning, not a force defence. That kind of defence can only be used against tangible attacks, so it's pretty much irrelavent in regards to N's drain.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
It's more than just your opinion. Sidious in the most powerful.

And other than your spelling mistakes, I don't necessarily see why Mace couldn't defend against it.

Now deflect a onslaught of lightning with you lightsaber is one thing. To fight against a "being" that drains the force from you without anything visible sign except your own feelings of getting weaker, is hardly see Mace defent himself against his drain and let us not forgot why the exile wasn't killed.

Lightning also drains life, and "it is a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi Masters to deflect such bursts."

Ultimate Visual Guide.

And Vaapad shoots the darkside back at the user..

If they hit you, I didn't see Obi-wan kenobi having any problems deflecting Dookus lightning and again in the first Thrawn trilogy the lightning only hurt Luke when they hit him, not draining his life just by touching his saber.

Ok:

1) nihilus with force drain=death to everyone else, unless you are a wound in the force
2) nihilus without force drain means windu winning since i believe his saber skills are more developed then nihilus' ones. Also, there are the vaadpad.

Originally posted by allfg
By RotS, he's clearly not the most powerful, and I'd argue against even his DE incarnation as well. It's in no way a fact. And what you need to get is that Mace Windu used a lightsaber defence for the lightning, not a force defence. That kind of defence can only be used against tangible attacks, so it's pretty much irrelavent in regards to N's drain.

Because you're an idiot who's been proven wrong countless times.

Shut the hell up and stay out of these debates with your debunked and stupid opinion.

thanks for the support lightsnake I am a bit new in this forum

Originally posted by Count Makashi
But wasn't it said that Yoda had a defence for every darks side power, and it sas id wokipedia that Mace coud defend against Sidious force lightning with Wapad, turning his anger against him, why cant he do tha same against Nihilus, im my opinion weaker sith.



Well yeah, Yoda has, but he is an over 800 year old jedi master, Mace is an over 50 year old master, clearly a big difference. I don't see Mace defending against a technique who drains the force and life out of people, who could do so on a whole planet of force users. Besides, it was pretty hard to even learn a defence for it, seeing as it was believed it wasn't even possible. (Though it probably was)



And, well pretty much read what Utrigita said, which clearly describes why he cannot deflect it with his saber!

Nihilus and Sion are both characters from a game and creators of the game have more freedom with characters powers. I am sure if GL made movies 7,8, and 9 and if it talked abaut Ancient sith, they wodn't be so powerful as in EU.
Butt in this fight Nihilus could kill Mace with his drain, butt without it, his nothing special.

Yeah, he can. I'm sure Lucas would make them have such powers if he wanted to contend with EU, but here's the deal, he doesn't. We still put most characters from the PT above the EU, and they aren't just worse because they are EU and Lucas didn't overdo the PT ones.
Nihilus wins with his drain, I see him stand a chance without it....


And you said "butt". lol

Originally posted by kamhal
Ok:

1) nihilus with force drain=death to everyone else, unless you are a wound in the force
Wrong, yuuzhan vongs, the fallanasi and luke skywalker are completely immune to this attack, Luke knew the fallanasi technique so this drain will not work on luke

You are taking a race that are none forcesensitive a race I doesn't know and possibly the strongest Jedi to have lived In many years and yes they can protect against it, but there is a far way from Luke Skywalker and the rest to Mace Windu.

I probably for the only one believes that Nihilus would be capable of defeating Mace Windu because we never see what he is really capable of in the fight with the Exile.

i agree partly, we actually dont know enough of nihilus to judge his skill other than his drain

Agree we know he is powerful in the force, but that about it. We simply cannot say that Mace will own him, because we have never witnessed Nihilus full potential.

Mace will own him.

Can you tell ore perhaps show me the full potential of Nihilus can you tell me anything about his sabercombat still, the only thing we know for sure is that he is a wound in the force, Have huge forcepotential, defeating kreia along with Sion, drains jedies, destroys worlds, losing to the exile after trying to drain him (dissaster) and becomes very weakend. anything I forgot?

You forgot that he gets stomped on in saber combat.

No proof for that JollyJim.

He's on par with Yoda, the most powerful Jedi up until that point.
He beat Sidious, the most powerful Sith .
He uses Vaapad.
He has Shatterpoint.
He has beaten people like Asajj and Sora Bulq.
Yada yada, Mace would win in a lightsaber fight.

Did you happen to watch Revenge of the Sith? Mace is in no way on par with Yoda. He was slow, unskilled, and technically he sucked. Yoda was quick, agile, and his skill >>>>> Mace.



Hasn't been proven...



Sidious quite clearly threw the fight, and Mace showed nothing too noteworthy with his win.



The incarnation you're referring to hasn't been proven the most powerful.



Overrated. It doesn't solely grant him victory, especially when he's as unskilled as he is in the movie.



What's so great about seeing weaknesses in your opponent if you don't have th skill or power to capitalise on them?



Wow, I take back everything I've said, Mace is a GOD.



You can make as good a case for Mace that can be made, but what you actually need to do (which you haven't) is prove that Nihilus' skills are below Mace's. Now the way I see it, force ability strongly correlates with lightsaber skill. Mace shows very basic skill in the movies. Nihilus has been prove to be a force titan. I say Nihilus takes it in a force, or saber battle.

It's been proven, Nebaris. Lucas himself approved the text word by word in which it is stated and Mastt Stover stated it's close to SW fact as you can get.

Oh, and the same canon texts call Palpatine the most powerful. Don't make iot ambiguous because you want it to be. Mace, by the EU, is exceptionally skilled and as canon, you can't deny that. Apparnetly Lucas feels the same because he kept it in Stover's books. Mace takes Nihilus 'can't fight to save my life literally' easily. Stop diminishing the PT because they're better than your favorites

Word by word? Bullshit, if that was the case, there wouldn't be any contradictions. Sure, he worked closely with the authors, but let's not be exaggerating things here. By your logic, we can accept the aspects of the novel that contradict the movies simply because Lucas line edited it. You're wrong. The fact is, the narrative that you believe labels Yoda the most powerful jedi up until his time is dependant on an invalid fightscene. Thus, it too is rendered invalid. Not to mention that what's said is ambiguous, I think it's safe to say that was effectively proven at USW.



No they don't.



They are ambiguous, deal with it.



Movie > EU, skill levels contradict, thus Mace's skill in the EU is invalid. In the movie, he is nothing, so unlucky about that!



Right, so because Lucas left the fact that Kit got beheaded inside the novelisation, it goes, even though it contradicts a higher form of canon...
Sure thing. You seem to think that just because Lucas worked closely with the author, the whole contradiction policy doesn't apply. It does, deal with it.



Proof that he can't fight to save his life? Oh wait...



I'm sure if you think back to when I first joined KMC, you'll remember that Mace Windu is one of my favorite characters. Doesn't change the fact that Nihilus outclasses him, bad.

The fight scene contradicts nothing, Nebaris. In fact, it matches up to the movie almost exactly and the scene does follow the movie exactly: Yoda dodging hurled senate pods. And yes, word by Word:

http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780345428837&view=auqa

Q: What were Mr. Lucas's line-edits like? Was he a tough editor?

MS: Not tough so much as exceedingly detailed, though I suspect he would have been very tough indeed if I hadn't been quite so scrupulously faithful to the spirit of his story. I mean, he literally went over it word-by-word, even to the point of altering descriptives to adjust the characters' inflections.

The quote saren;t ambiguous. They state directly most powerful and have been reviewed and published as canon. Nothing of the sort has been done from your platform. You have nothing. And apparently, despise what the movie shows, the EU is STILL VALID....can you explain that? I asked Leland about it...according to him, it's fine!

And according to Leland: Direct actions in contradictions are N-canon, but narrative, thoughts and times between scenes are certainly canon.

And prove Nihilus can't fight to save his life?
He died in a fight!

And Nihilus outclasses Mace with the force, a sunlike Palpatine, Yoda, Luke or jacen, Mace can't deal with the drain. but remove that and Mace would butcher him

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The fight scene contradicts nothing, Nebaris. In fact, it matches up to the movie almost exactly and the scene does follow the movie exactly: Yoda dodging hurled senate pods. And yes, word by Word:

http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780345428837&view=auqa

Q: What were Mr. Lucas's line-edits like? Was he a tough editor?

MS: Not tough so much as exceedingly detailed, though I suspect he would have been very tough indeed if I hadn't been quite so scrupulously faithful to the spirit of his story. I mean, he literally went over it word-by-word, even to the point of altering descriptives to adjust the characters' inflections.

The quote saren;t ambiguous. They state directly most powerful and have been reviewed and published as canon. Nothing of the sort has been done from your platform. You have nothing. And apparently, despise what the movie shows, the EU is STILL VALID....can you explain that? I asked Leland about it...according to him, it's fine!

And according to Leland: Direct actions in contradictions are N-canon, but narrative, thoughts and times between scenes are certainly canon.

And prove Nihilus can't fight to save his life?
He died in a fight!

And Nihilus outclasses Mace with the force, a sunlike Palpatine, Yoda, Luke or jacen, Mace can't deal with the drain. but remove that and Mace would butcher him

As a matter of fact Lightsnake if this was purely force fight Nihilus would take it against mace since Mace as far as I am concernd isn't that good at force duels, my intention with question that Mace just stomped him was that we never see Nihilus fully potential we only see him after been weakend twice first by his former slave and then by the Exile, I agree with you that the Nihilus we see in the Game fighting the Exile would lose but the one with full power who riped a ship from Malacor V and having destroyed entire planets, I just think the Battle would play out different.

1. Link?
2. Leland Chee isn't a God, he doesn't dictate the definition of what a contradiction is.
3. Half of the time he posts in the forums, he doesn't even give much thought to his answers, and mostly just skims through your question given he has about 100 new ones thrown at him everytime he logs in.
4. You're probably taking what he said out of context (which reinforces why you need to provide a link). If random EU source has Mace moving at the speed of sound, it clearly contradicts the movies. Only a moron would disagree, and LC isn't a moron.



No. Nihilus is powerful without his drain ability, and the fact that his drain ability is so effective is testament to his strength. Anyways:

1. With the force, he threw Traya, a proven force titan, around like a ragdole.

2. He escaped a physical death by transferring his consciousness into his armour when his physical body died.

3. He tore his entire fleet, including his starship; the Ravager out from the mass shadows of Malachor.

4. While on his ship, he would constantly hold his entire ship together, and dominate and control the minds of his crew. This kind of continuous use of the force would be extremely draining on his strength, yet even n this state, he was able to instantly stun The Exile, Visas Marr and the Mandalore at once. And even after subsequently being weakened by draining The Exile - a wound in the force, he was able to put up a good fight against all three of them, and almost defeat them.

He's uber, and > Mace Windu, with or without his drain.

1. Check the Leland thread.
2. Chee dictates what is and what is not valid in SW continuity. There's no contradiction, he's saying: You just think there is.
3. Mmhmm. Whatever. Beaten much?
4. Except it doesn't. Either Lucas slows it down or he moves faster in other areas. Can't say it contradicts the movies when it's fully canon according to LFL! Sorry!

1. It's a very big thread. Provide a link to the page.

2. If he doesn't think there's a contradiction, he's a moron, and no moron will ever dictate what I can or cannot debate.

3. No, it's true. he does it a lot. Now provide a link, or stfu and gtfo.

4. Bullshit. The movies are what they are, and you have to accept that. If time was slowed down or sped up, it would have been made obvious. Wonderful excuse though.

And on topic, pretty much every force titan has been proven to be able to amp up their speeds to a level far beyond any movie character. Seeing as Nihilus is easily as strong as most of them with the force, there's no reason to suggest that he can't either, which means that Mace is going down in saber combat too.

LOL! by what means? Oh, right...hyperbolic description? The same avenue as the books?

You're wrong and LFL says so! Oh, and when we saw Nihilus move, he wasn't fast at all. Hypocrite

1. Find it yourself. You're not worth the effort.
2. He's a moron with power. And what he says goes. Therefore, it is canon and did happen, according to the people in power. In other words: no contradictions. you just think there are.
3. Except the movies never put limits on anything. Unless Yoda or Mace screa "I can't go any faster" than you have no point.

Sorry

Not everything that goes against you is hyperbole Lightsnake. Now the difference between sources such as DE and PoD, and some of the PT sources is that the former two sources don't contradict the movies, whereas the latter do.



Gameplay.



It is up to you to provide your proof Lightsnake. If you don't, you're as god as conceding the argument.



Again, these 'people in power' don't dictate the definition of a contradiction.



If they could move at the speeds that they could in the novels, they would have.

Originally posted by allfg
Not everything that goes against you is hyperbole Lightsnake. Now the difference between sources such as DE and PoD, and some of the PT sources is that the former two sources don't contradict the movies, whereas the latter do.
There's no contradiction. You just think there is.
Leland and LFL>You
Lucas's approval>You

Proof of his speed, or enough


No. I gave you the source of it. Find it yourself


Neither do you. they say there's no contradiction. I believe them


Prove it. In fact, you have no visual venue for your argument...just possible hyperbolic descriptions from books.
Apparently Palpatine and Yoda have moved that fast in movie..I see no reason Karpyshyn should supercede actual canon and Lucas's intentions

They just modified the speed in the movie so that oure simply human eyes could follow correct Lightsnake?

No, there are.



Again, Leland is not a God, he can't dictate what the meaning of a contradiction is.



Again, by that logic, every single contradiction in the novel still counts as canon, despite them contradicting with the movie.



Ridiculous. Gameplay is completely N canon, unless you want to argue that Carth Onasi can survive multiple lightsaber hits.



Considering the source contains about 1,000 different posts, you'll need to provide exactly where it is said.



If Mace could move at the speeds he could in the novels, why didn't he in the movies? He would have been able to whoop Palpatine's ass with the speed that's described in Shatterpoint. And the duel only happened to be the most important one of his life... Face it, it's a contradiction.



Mace's duel with Palpatine was pretty much the most important one of his life.

His speed described in Shatterpoint would have given him the edge in combat against Palpatine.

Yet he was slow.

Now unless he wanted to lose the fight, we have to believe that he simply can't move at those speeds. Contradiction.



No hyperbole. Saying that doesn't make it so. Now Luke wielding his one saber like they were twenty is hyperbole. The description regarding Bane's speed wasn't, it goes into much detail, and is entirely accurate and factual.



What are you talking about? Palpatine was slow, and while Yoda was exceptionally agile and pretty fast, he was no Bane in speed.



How is Drew making Bane faster than any movie character going against canon?

Originally posted by Utrigita
They just modified the speed in the movie so that oure simply human eyes could follow correct Lightsnake?

If they did slow down time, it would have been made obvious (sound would have slowed down etc., yet it didn't).

Originally posted by allfg
No, there are.
There really aren't. They simply don't move as fast in the movie and technology constraints don't portray their limits.
Please...you have the entire EU, LFL and Lucas against you here



And again: WHAT is this contradiction? LFL is deciding you are wrong. the man who determines what are and what are not contradictions in SW says you are wrong.
Can you please take a long, hard look at your opinion?



Just the martial prowess ones confirmed by the EU are fine. There aren't as many contradictions as you think and you know I( asked Leland exactly what goes. But absence of proof isn't proof of absence



It's not dependent on gameplay. the only times we see Nihilus move, he's slow. Unless you can argue otherwise, he is indeed slower than what Mace has shown



And I'm not digging through them: you have what he said and you have the source.
Find it if you wish



Palpatine's apparently just as fast as Mace is. heading at those speeds in an office are different than in the jungle.
The fact remains: Shatterpoint is fully canon. Lucas himself read and approved it



Apparently in the novelization, Palpatine was just as fast as Mace was and evenly matched...this is what Lucas approved

Technology constraints and stuntwork. So?

We don't have to. We work out any 'contradiction' with an explanation of sorts.
The facet is, unless Shatterpoint is declared N-Canon-and Lucas didn't want to do so, apparently, since he read it and wrote the foreward- then Mace can move at those speeds



moving so fast 'time seemed to slow' for everyone else is also hyperbole. Don't have it both ways, because it goes into just as much detail of other speed.
And continuously saying there're contradictions doesn't make it show.
Now, even if there are, then it doesn't matter. In the EU, the canon part of Star Wars, they move just as fast. You'll have to accept that



False. We never saw Bane move visually so you can't tell. And did you ignore Nai's post on just how fast Yoda was in the movies? or Papatine matching him? Yeah, they were pretty much blurs in their saber duel.

Either way, it's no matter. the EU has shown what Yoda can do. And it's canon



Drew can't do that. Plain and simply, Lucas's approved material puts the characters above Bane, so Drew can't do anything.

I know you like Bane a lot, but consider he's not the strongest.

Yes, there are.



Out of story explanations don't cut it Lightsnake. The movies are what they are, and they happen to be the highest form of canon. Deal with it.



And you have the movies against you. Movies > EU.



No I don't. You still haven't sourced anything, btw.



I've explained what they are perfectly well.



Again, Leland is still not allowed to rewrite the English Dictionary.



It's not as simply as 'absence of proof isn't proof of absence' when discussing the skill levels of how warriors fight; a fighter naturally shows his limits while fighting, unless there is a valid reason as to why he wouldn't (for example, if he was throwing the fight).



The whole 'it's not dependant on gameplay' argument doesn't apply; we're not talking about gamestats. Fact is, gameplay is 100% non canon, and unless you want to argue that Revan can survive multiple lightsaber hits (it's not dependant on gameplay either), you have no case, and should concede.



Again, it's up to you, so either post a direct link, or concede.



LOL! Right, so it's because they're in an office that Mace is slow. Anywhere else, he would have been uber quick.
Erm yeah, no.



Doesn't mean that aspects inside it aren't subject to being retconned.



And the novelisation contradicts in this case. Moot point.



Out of story explanations don't cut it Lightsnake. The movies are what they are, and they happen to be the highest form of canon. Deal with it.



Lucas said in an interview that the EU was a different world to his, and that he hasn't even read most of the books. Proof that he read Shatterpoint? And again, just because Lucas leaves something in, doesn't mean it isn't subject to being invalid, as can be seen with the contradictions inside the movie novelisations.



The rest was very detailed.



You'll have to accept that as canon as the EU is, it was always come second to the movies. They contradict, deal with it.



? We have a novelisation perfectly describing how quickly he can move, and it's beyond the speeds that the movie characters can move at.



At EoD? Most of his figures were just plain wrong, and the fact is: we can easily follow Yoda's movements, whereas trained force users couldn't follow Bane's. Bane's faster, you'll have to accept it. And they weren't blurs in their duel, I could see everything perfectly.



And still subject to being retconned by higher forms of canon.



His 'approved material' contradicts the movies.



WEll I like Bane..a lot( ), and I know he's not the strongest, but he is above any movie character, and you have the movies to blame for that.

Originally posted by allfg
Yes, there are.



Out of story explanations don't cut it Lightsnake. The movies are what they are, and they happen to be the highest form of canon. Deal with it.
Stop it already. Lucas's own approvaloverrides ANYTHING you have to say and those explanations DO work. There's nothing to argue here: Their EU movements are canon unless declared otherwise



And accoridng to the head of continuity there's no problem. why can't you get this, already?



Yes I have: That thread. I'm not going to hold your hand and find it for you.



He's allowed to decide what is and isn't valid for SW canon. If you want to get so technical, maybe we should take out TIE Fighters for exploding and having sound in space.

You're doing yourself no favors, just stop. The movie characters CAN move that fast. It's canon due to the EU



And they showed their futher limits in the EU. You're focusing totally on proof of absence which is a completely logical fallacy.
Simplest explanation: They're just slowed down for viewer benefit



Nihilus's cutscene movements and his attack speed as shown are quite slow. Do you have any case, I have to ask?
I have some evidence, you have...nothing



I gave you the source. Not my job to find it for you



Except he was uber quick in Shatterpoint. A canon soruce.
And the clone Wars. Canon due to LFL and Lucas's declarations. And in Labyrinth of evil. Sorry



There aren't any retcons mentioned at all



No it doesn't. Stop it already. Youv'e provided no evidence but a huge logical fallacy



And the EU are still points of canon. Lucas himself is the highest form of canon, since he can change the movies and put in what he wants with a few words.
He approves those parts of the EU. Deal with it



Lucas also read and approved them as parts of his universe and that quote was long before the canon hierarchy was created
PRove what you preach. Apparently you know Lucas's mind without evidence. Instead of saying it could still be invalid, prove up with something not a fallacy.
Leland Chee confirmed things on the novelization: Direct contradictions are N-canon.
Everything else is G



No, it was not. It mentioned something of complete hyperbole and demonstrated the actions. Same applies to the rest of the descriptions of speed.
This is you pimping what you don't like and bringing down what threatens your platform. Stop it



No, they don't. LFL has said they don't, Lucas's approval shows they don't.
Deal.
With.
It.



Wrong! Sorry! We get a small description with no visual info and you suddeenly decide that because you like Bane more! Maybe everyone else was slow, because Mace can land six punches before someone like Kar Vastor can blink and since we discuss the EU, everything else from the EU goes unless you want to admit Mace wins just because he exists in the continuity!
Caught in this paradox of yours, you have nowhere left to argue from: You accept the EU when arguing with EU characters, or you concede as LFL's canon policy itself is against you and you have no visual medium except of a book of hyperbole to measure Bane



Actually, they were 100 percent correct on Yoda.
And last I checked: Unsubstantiated hyperbole on PoD. Deal with it



And since no retcons occured...
Sorry



I think Lucas knows about that more than you



He's not. Express, direct canon confirms it.

Just accept it and you'll be better off for it. You're in denial with terrible arguments that contradict LFL's very canon policy and Lucas's own decisions.

quit pretending you know best and just admit you're wrong on this issue.
The people who DECIDE THIS FOR A LIVING have decided you're wrong. They have retconned nothing. in fact, it's been referenced in later, approved, complete canon.

There's no argument here. You were fine with it until you realized it threatened your precious Bane.

Again, just because GL approved it, it doesn't mean that nothing in it is subject to being retconned. Here's an example: the RotS novelisation.



No they don't, because we debate with in-story logic.



Again, not LC or any other LFL employee has the right to change the english language. And something doesn't have to be declared an infinity for it to contain contradictions.



LC is infallible? Who would have guessed?



And I'm not looking through hundreds of posts to find proof that it is up to you to provide. I take it you've conceded, then?



That's completely different; in terms of the laws of science inside the SW universe, that stuff happens and doesn't contradict anything.



Nope, it's N Canon due to the movies.



Read what I said again, I'm not working under that fallacy.



If that was so, than the effects of this (inconsistent sound, for example) would have been made apparent.



LOL, so you're basing his fighting speed at how quickly he walks? By that logic, Yoda is slower than Darth Vader. The point is, we never see Nihilus duel in a cutscene, we only ever see him use force attacks, for which displays of exponential speed are not necessary.



Gameplay. N Canon.



1. Given that Nihilus' knowledge was so vast that he knew of techniques such as transferring his consciousness into his armour, I'm guessing he knows how to enhance his speed with the force.

2. Given how strong he is in the force, there's no reason to suggest that he can't amp up his speed to the level of people like Bane and Sidious, which is beyond people like Mace and Yoda.



By your logic, whenever I make an argument for Bane, and you ask me to source something, I can just provide the source: PoD, and that would be adequate. That's not how it works, I deal in specifics.



They're all canon, but that one contradicting aspect: Mace's speed isn't.



Just because they're not mentioned, doesn't mean they don't exist. perhaps your precious Leland Chan missed something out.



No I haven't.



So by your logic, if Lucas approves some random comic, yet it contradicts the movies, it has the authority to overwrite the movies, correct? WRONG!!



LMAO, you just defeated your own argument. Wouldn't that make the quote S Canon?



You saying that I'm committing a logical fallacy doesn't make it so.



I know this..
The thing is, the case in question is a direct contradiction, which makes it N Canon.



Erm, actually it describes the entire manoeuvre, and the whole 'blur' and 'faster than their eyes could see' descriptions were not hyperbolic in one bit.



Again, not LC or any other LFL employee has the right to change the english language. And something doesn't have to be declared an infinity for it to contain contradictions.



Again, just because GL approved it, it doesn't mean that nothing in it is subject to being retconned. Here's an example: the RotS novelisation.



In most cases, detailed descriptions > visual info.



they were trained force users... Sirak himself could move in blurs.



Not when it contradicts the movies however, which is something you don't seem to get.



You've said this before, and it makes zero sense. Just because Nihilus doesn't appear in the movies, that doesn't make his existence in a time period way before the movies retconned in any way.



LMAO, this makes zero sense.



Except it's not hyperbole.



Yes they did, and it's been proven.



And I think Lucas is a moron who constantly contradicts himself and doesn't make sense, and I'm guessing he's too lazy to even read half of the books that are published.



No it doesn't.



No they don't.



No they haven't, I'm right on this issue.



That's a lie. In fact, I conceded my Mace > Yoda argument that I made when I first joined these forums based on it, and that was long before PoD was released.

lol, long ting posts.

It's somewhat imbecilic to try and judge Nihilus' apparent lightsabre skills (or lack thereof) when we don't have a single canon source depicting him fighting in combat aside from non-canon gameplay and also when we don't actually have any literary references to his lightsabre skills.

Honestly, Windu will most like go down hard. I can't see him resisting a drain from Nihilus; nor being able to resist someone who apparently keeps his ship intact by his will alone.

With Force Drain? Yeah, Mace'd go down.

Anything else? Nihilus is slaughtered

Lightsnake!

Nihilus is more powerful then Mace.

Originally posted by allfg
Again, just because GL approved it, it doesn't mean that nothing in it is subject to being retconned. Here's an example: the RotS novelisation.
That's different. Elements go and Lucas approved them word by word.



And allowances are always made for out of story explanation. Lucas's explained plenty on the commentaries



So...you have zero proof but your opinion. Good to know



He decides the canon. Don't attack the sources when you lose out


No. Your laziness isn't my problem



And in terms of power and ability, the stuff in the EU happens and doesn't contradict anything




Proof please. Find me an exact, official statement



Yeah. You are.
"They don't do it in the movies, so they can't." is your argument. debunked



Prove it. Most of the sound is due to saber crashing and the music. Doesn't preclude a thing



We've seen Nihilus fight. slow, isn't he?



Proof



Proof. Darth Krayt's ranting means little and considering most Sith keep their spirits alive by transferring their spirits...so?


Unsupported assumptions and blatant lies.
Yoda>Bane. If the movie speed is the top, and Yoda is declared the strongest, which is Lucas specified and designated, then PoD must conform.
Sorry, you need to get over your Bane fascination



You can give the source easily enough. If you're lazy, it's your fault



No it isn't. Different circumstance and it's still canon so ANY oibjection you raise is shot down



He has authority, you don't
Sorry.



Stop being delusional



If there's no contradiction-and some random's fan's opinion proves nothing- and Lucas goes over it word by word, then yeah, it's perfectly fine. If the actions just don't seem to gel, then there is a bridge formed and the actions become canon. If Anakin dies of a sudden heart attck in a direct contradiction, than no.
Give eorge some credit



Quotes are C-canon. The only argument defeated is your own



But continuous usage of the absence of proof fallacy does



Liar. You just think there is.
LFL thinks differently. Can you not comprehend this?



Yes they were. In fact, they contradict the movies which Lucas declared the Prime of the Jedi and the EU calls the fighting prime by your inane logic.
EU is EU and so it goes canonically. See? I can bash the sources too



Yes it does. For something to be invalid, the Holocron database needs to take care of it.
LFL and Leland decide what are contradictions and work them out. Since they saw no need to do so and let it stay C or G canon, then there is NO contradiction except in your mind



Different again. Answered above.
Matt Stover: It's as close to sW fact as you can get (Regarding the powers)
End of story, there. Lucas approved it expressley



Wrong. I interpret it as hyperbole and biased description from Bane's own POV.
See? I can do it, too



Unsupported hyperbole from an untrained apprentice.
The BoD was weak according to Bane...powerwise weak



It doesn't. You don't seem to get that. If I show you a quote from Leland finishin this, will you stop?



But movies are the ultimate canon and everything else is secondary. So, the secondary doesn't exist to the primary sop the primaries win unless you acknowledge the secondary and all that happens in such, giving the EU feats their credit.
Thus...win!



Like everything you say



Yes it is. The description shows it as such. sInce you can't prove a thing, just settle down



Now you're just being stupidly biased. I want an official statement from LFL and LEland Chee...the people who handel the retcons. Your opinion means nothing



Yet, he has the power and thus he determines the canon.
And the canon determined trumps you by far


Learn to debate



Learn what you're talking about



No, you're stupidly biased and you're lying:
Give me direct proof of a contradiction, supported by someone from LFL or Lucas himself, because Lucas himself approved the so-called contradictions word by word and even said it was exactly how he imagined on the ROTs commentaries.

And from Leland:



Tasty Taste
Member Profile
Total Posts: 1230
Member Since: 05/00

reply

Date Posted: Feb 08, 2007 12:34 PM

Does the slower speed of the movies, for instance, contradict the faster speeds of the EU?
No.





No, quite frakly, you have an obsession with Bane. Yoda is the top Jedi by ROTs. Stover clarified exactly what he meant and went over it with Lucas. PAlpatine is declared the strongest in Bane's entire order and has numerous other quotes and Dan Wallace's clarification.

Legend!!

Your wisdom blows me away.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Lightsnake!

Nihilus is more powerful then Mace.

Legend!

In the Force due to the drain, yes. I've said as much. However, in pure ability, Mace'd destroy him

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Legend!

In the Force due to the drain, yes. I've said as much. However, in pure ability, Mace'd destroy him
Mace can defeat Nihilus in only pure Saber match.

Nihilus has shown more mastery in the Force. His TK abilities are too impressive to be ignored.

Nihilus can defeat Mace even in pure Force contest.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Mace can defeat Nihilus in only pure Saber match.

Nihilus has shown more mastery in the Force. His TK abilities are too impressive to be ignored.

Nihilus can defeat Mace in pure Force contest.
The reverse is true as well. Mace is extremely powerful himself.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The reverse is true as well. Mace is extremely powerful himself.
I fully agree that Mace was also extremely powerful. I rank him among TOP 10 Jedi of all times.

But unfortunately Nihilus is a Force Titan. His pure strength in the Force is incredible. He has more chance to win in pure Force contest.

Overall fight will go in Nihilus's favour in the end.

Nihilus's main strength, however, focuses on his drain.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nihilus's main strength, however, focuses on his drain.
Nihilus's strength was also focused on holding the entire Ravager Ship together. And despite this massive burden, he could still channel incredible power in to his Draining abilities or could perform other feats without any difficulty.

It is clear from these things that he was extremely powerful.

Well I gotta say (not stating a winner), that Nihilus must be strong to hold up a ship, being starved for a long time and then suddenly weakened, and fighting the leader of the Mandalorians, the jedi Exile and Visas, and still cause her to believe they wouldn't make it, all at once.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nihilus's strength was also focused on holding the entire Ravager Ship together. And despite this massive burden, he could still channel incredible power in to his Draining abilities or could perform other feats without any difficulty.

It is clear from these things that he was extremely powerful.

and Mace dismantled a huge group of droids and a seismic tank on his own.

Same applies there

Lightsnake, stop ignoring what I'm saying and respond directly. The fact is, the RotS novelisation is proof that just because Lucas approved some source, it doesn't make everything inside indisputably canon, even if it contradicts the movies.



No they're not. Lucas actually always tries to use an in-universe explanation to cover up his mistakes.



Lightsnake, I've already provided proof, and your only defence was that Lucas approved the sources, and therefor, everything in them is absolute. This is not the case.



1. Just because he doesn't elaborate on a contradiction, it doesn't mean there isn't one.

2. You've still failed to properly source anything LC has stated.



It's your laziness that is the issue, considering that by rules of debate, it is up to you, and not your opponent to provide proof for your claims.



Yes it does, it contradicts the movies.



LMAO, does every argument that can possibly be made have to be backed up by some random LFL employee for you, lightsnake?

Again, if the movie characters could move at their EU speeds, they would have, because it would have been beneficial and possibly granted them a victory. There's no good reason for them to not have fought with those speeds if they really could have.



Again, if the movie characters could move at their EU speeds, they would have, because it would have been beneficial and possibly granted them a victory. There's no good reason for them to not have fought with those speeds if they really could have.



If time had really been slowed down, the sound of sabers clashing would have been prolonged.



Gameplay = N Canon.



Don't be ridiculous, proof for well known facts that your opponent clearly knows isn't required, you're just being purposely annoying and wasting my time.



Jedi padawans are taught how to amp up their speed with the force. Nihilus knows it, don't be ridiculous.



Bullshit.



Where's it said that the movie speed is the top?



Yoda being declared the strongest is 100% Yoda's PoV.



Hold up, your posts seem to imply that you actually believe that in-universe evidence points to Bane being stronger, but these random quotes change that. LOL!



At least Bane's hot... Yoda's old, you into old aliens?



Again, it's your proof to provide.



It's not canon, because it contradicts. And please explain how 'different circumstance' would have that drastic an effect on Mace's speed.



Again, just because he doesn't elaborate on a contradiction, it doesn't mean there isn't one.



I know you are but what am I?



It's not my fault you can't see what a direct contradiction is.



Again, if the movie characters could move at their EU speeds, they would have, because it would have been beneficial and possibly granted them a victory. There's no good reason for them to not have fought with those speeds if they really could have.

Quit just labelling my argument as an absence of proof fallacy simply because you can't argue against it.



LFL /= law. Can you comprehend that?



Prime of the Jedi as in the most prosperous order, and in comparison to the OT.



1. They may have missed something out by accident.

2. They don't dictate the definition of contradiction; their authority isn't that great.



Brackets is 100% unsupported, and entirely your opinion.



Yet you haven't supported your opinion.





Complete BS. It's supported, it's not hyperbole, and the apprentices were highly trained.



No, I won't stop, because you not sourcing things isn't the only problem you have in your argument.



Dude, if you're going to mock my logic, at least do it right.



Sure thing Trousersnake.



Prove it.



Seeing as your opinion is dependant on what morons with power believe, I won't hesitate to put mine over your's.



Except every 'canon' thing you've offered has been inconclusive.



You first, Mr Strawman.



You first, oh fan of irrelevant misdirection.



All this proves is that LC is a moron. Give me a chance to explain my reasoning to him, and I can guarantee that eh'll change his mind. In face, he mostly doesn't even give much thought into his responses.



We all know, get over it.



Yoda's PoV.



Dirty talk shared by you and Mr Wallace in the bedroom isn't canon.

Originally posted by allfg
Lightsnake, stop ignoring what I'm saying and respond directly. The fact is, the RotS novelisation is proof that just because Lucas approved some source, it doesn't make everything inside indisputably canon, even if it contradicts the movies.
He didn't just approve it:
He went over it line by line. Non-contradictories are G-canon



Riiiight...which's why he did the opposite in the commentaries



All the proof I need. they're acknowledged as pure G-canon



Doesn't mean there is one. I'm afraid there's nothing

See my last post



Already done



Says you. The head of the canon department disagrees



YOu're making statements about canon and retcons...the things LFL officials can do and only them

Nai's dealt with this at EoD.



Your assumptions =/= proof




If the sabers move at the fast speed, the sound would be unmuted. You don't need the sound to correspond. there's all the explanation you need



Ahhh. More BS and half-truths



Quantify his speed. can he land six blows in under a blink of an eye?



Lol. Proven wrong-thanks, Leland!



The fighting prime of the Jedi, remember that?
And if the EU speeds go, all the EU speeds go


Nope. It's narrative...narrative, character thoughts and scenes of the sort are 100 percent canon.
And apparently, according to TV and Stover, Lucas shares the opinion. Huh



Actually, I'm humoring you. In-universe things point to Bane being weaker.
Never saw him destroy an army single handedly


Hitting a low point?



Provided
http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=152583&start=1215
Again



Date Posted: Feb 08, 2007 12:34 PM

Does the slower speed of the movies, for instance, contradict the faster speeds of the EU?
No.

Take it up with him!


He directly says there isn't one.


Yet the guy who handles these contradictions and retcons for the company as his job says there isn't one



Yet....they can move at those speeds. Funny that

Unlike you, I have proof. I want direct and absolute statements of a retcon if you have them



With Star Wars, LFL isn't law?
Okaaaay



Wrong. AOTC novel ftw. And Lucas refers specifically to FIGHTING. Huh, odd...hmm, the NEC refers it to their strongest point...so did fightsaber



Not according to Leland. This is a bullshit excuse. Give me proof or shut up

they do with Star Wars! authority of SW is absolute there



Give me a break, seriously



To those who aren't total fanboys and movie haters, I have





so are Jedi apprentices. It's unsupported hyperbole in the text with no visual medium from only Bane's POV...sorry


Yet...my sources trump you here



You need to grasp logic



Maturity ftw



That he moved so fast time slowed? with no visual medium? Whent he comic portrays them as slower? Sorry.



So...you know more than Lucas, LFL, Leland Chee and the sort? Your word is Sw law?



Says only you



Already done.



You keep mispronouncing 'direct proof'



Hhahahaha! Yeah, go right ahead! For now, what he says goes...why are they morons when they don't agree with you?



No. He loses to the PT tops. Canon backs me up. In-universe evidence backs me up. Lucas, Leland Chee and LFL back me up.
You are alone on this platform


It's all narrative. It just says He realized it and then goes on to narrative...it also says the Force gave him this knowledge.
Leland also says character thoughts And narrative are valid



No, but his published book is.

Are insults your only way of fighting the inevitable?

That's a lie. If that was so, there would be no contradictions present. Your own quote proves you wrong in fact:

"MS: Not tough so much as exceedingly detailed, though I suspect he would have been very tough indeed if I hadn't been quite so scrupulously faithful to the spirit of his story. I mean, he literally went over it word-by-word, even to the point of altering descriptives to adjust the characters' inflections."




You continuously ignore my argument. Please stop. Your argument against there being contradictions is that Lucas approved the source. I've shown the flaws inside this reasoning, now please admit that you're wrong, and quit bringing it up again and again.



Quote?



Lightsnake, quit being ridiculous. being approved by Lucas doesn't give the source immunity from being retconned.



I've already explained how there is one, and your only argument against that was that LC didn't acknowledge it. Again, I prove how your reasoning fails, and again, you try to Strawman your way out of it.



Again:

1. He doesn't put that much thought into his responses, they're hardly absolute.

2. He may have misunderstood your question.

3. Being the head of the canon department doesn't give him the authority to change the English Language.



No. I'm using basic knowledge of what a contradiction is, and working under the very canon policy that LC set.



He didn't reply actually.



Refute my reasoning, or concede.



No. The sound would have to correspond. You can also view the speed of exterior events, and judge by that, too.



Bullshit.



Given his strength in and mastery of the force, most likely. And Mace can't do that anyway, point mooted.



Only applied to the movies; it was the PT in comparison to the OT, and it was purely in respect to choreography.



this makes zero sense.



You contradict yourself. You say 'Nope' to what I'm saying, and then say the same thing. I wasn't arguing the canonicity, Lightsnake, I was saying that given that it's Yoda's PoV, and given that Yoda isn't infallible, his PoV is subject to being wrong like Darth Subjekt.



Link?



Funny, never saw Yoda pull a moon out of orbit. What I did see was him struggle with lifting a tiny piller.

















Yeah, ok, I could reply to the rest of this, but the argument's only going to get bigger and bigger, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by allfg
That's a lie. If that was so, there would be no contradictions present. Your own quote proves you wrong in fact:

"MS: Not tough so much as exceedingly detailed, though I suspect he would have been very tough indeed if I hadn't been quite so scrupulously faithful to the spirit of his story. I mean, he literally went over it word-by-word, even to the point of altering descriptives to adjust the characters' inflections."
You....do know what 'literally' means, right? It means that's exactly what he did....'literally' means there's no hyperbole, that what he says is what happened




Lucas approved it word by word. Meaning, it's as close to SW fact as it gets barring contradictions and Stover's opinion shows there.
Sorry.



Watch the movie



Fraid it does, actually. When Lucas goes over it word by word and there aren't contradictions...well, Chee says there are no contradictions and Stover says it's as close to SW fact as you can get.
Period



And Chee's last response disproved you completely. Whoops



Prove it

Prove it

He's not. He's confirming that there are no contradictions despite your opinion. you have no authority in LFL



The head of the canon department apparently disagrees with you



Yes, he did, actually. His last post



Refuted already
Everyone official says you're wrong and the official guy who handles this says there's no contradiction.
Sorry



Prove it



What a compelling argument.
You lose



The fully C-canon, unretconned Shatterpoint has him doing that.
Stop being an idiot and accept the EU


Prove it. Advent kicked your ass on this before.
Lucas's statement here goes unless you have something else but idiotic fanboyish interpretation



To the intelligent, it makes perfect sense



Since Yoda was receiving a pure vision from the Force and since it was narrative and Stover said it's as close to SW fact as you can get..
sorry



Given


Unless you're a total idiot, you'd see him grab it and pull it aside
And Bane was never shown pulling a moon out of orbit either. You just theorize he did in a retconned story-whoops!
Nai owned this argument, too
















No, we'll end with one thing:

You're wrong