Subcultures

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lil bitchiness
Do you believe that a collective behaviour within certain subcultures, around a certain imagery, style and symbolic meaning reinforces criminal, or violent behaviour?


Subcultures like for example - Zoot suiters and gangbangers, mainstream hip-hop, mediated muggings or other acts of vandalism and violence on the picture telephones, gun cultures, gang cultures (both male and female)...

Do these reflect on todays western culture and reinforcement of what we should all have - fast car, money, be beautiful, and successfully and seek that all important respect, or is it reflection of something completely different?


Thoughts?

Soleran
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Do you believe that a collective behaviour within certain subcultures, around a certain imagery, style and symbolic meaning reinforces criminal, or violent behaviour?

Certainly



Depending on the circumstances of the individual alot of what you describe gives people hope that they can make a better tomorrow for themselves that their suffering today will generate success tomorrow, at least that's what I see.

WrathfulDwarf
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Do you believe that a collective behaviour within certain subcultures, around a certain imagery, style and symbolic meaning reinforces criminal, or violent behaviour?


Subcultures like for example - Zoot suiters and gangbangers, mainstream hip-hop, mediated muggings or other acts of vandalism and violence on the picture telephones, gun cultures, gang cultures (both male and female)...

Do these reflect on todays western culture and reinforcement of what we should all have - fast car, money, be beautiful, and successfully and seek that all important respect, or is it reflection of something completely different?


Thoughts?

There is an art behind all that imagery. However, the violence and the "tough guy" mentality which seems to govern it ruins the aesthetics inside. For me it doesn't reflect western culture. But rather reflect themselves. Are they violent? Yes. Could they introduce their art without violence? Of course. The latter would be much more welcome.

guy222
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Do you believe that a collective behaviour within certain subcultures, around a certain imagery, style and symbolic meaning reinforces criminal, or violent behaviour?


Subcultures like for example - Zoot suiters and gangbangers, mainstream hip-hop, mediated muggings or other acts of vandalism and violence on the picture telephones, gun cultures, gang cultures (both male and female)...

Do these reflect on todays western culture and reinforcement of what we should all have - fast car, money, be beautiful, and successfully and seek that all important respect, or is it reflection of something completely different?


Thoughts?

I wish the world was like Martin envisioned. Its not. Only the strong survive, those who dream and try always win in the end. Money, cars and women will always go hand in hand. When u die, your maker judges and u enter heaven or hell

Alfheim
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Do you believe that a collective behaviour within certain subcultures, around a certain imagery, style and symbolic meaning reinforces criminal, or violent behaviour?


Subcultures like for example - Zoot suiters and gangbangers, mainstream hip-hop, mediated muggings or other acts of vandalism and violence on the picture telephones, gun cultures, gang cultures (both male and female)...

Do these reflect on todays western culture and reinforcement of what we should all have - fast car, money, be beautiful, and successfully and seek that all important respect, or is it reflection of something completely different?


Thoughts?

I think it can do in the case of hip hop. Everbody wants to be a gangster, even if their not deprived.

Atlantis001
I think that there would be an "artistic potential" behind it like WrathfulDwarf was saying, but today it just seems to be a way to justify violence putting it as just a different style to be confused as art. There are different things in the world, we can not just say everything is art or just a different style.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Alfheim
I think it can do in the case of hip hop. Everbody wants to be a gangster, even if their not deprived.

Ineresting!

Now, on the other side of the spectrum, and I would like your honest opinion -

What do you think about media and its representation to the young men (black, white, hispanic, asian, south asian..etc) of such culture?
Do you think media has more to do with this, than the actual people who are getting involved?

Originally posted by Atlantis001
I think that there would be an "artistic potential" behind it like WrathfulDwarf was saying, but today it just seems to be a way to justify violence putting it as just a different style to be confused as art. There are different things in the world, we can not just say everything is art or just a different style.

What about media itself? Do you believe violence sells?

The Libertine
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Do you believe that a collective behaviour within certain subcultures, around a certain imagery, style and symbolic meaning reinforces criminal, or violent behaviour?


Subcultures like for example - Zoot suiters and gangbangers, mainstream hip-hop, mediated muggings or other acts of vandalism and violence on the picture telephones, gun cultures, gang cultures (both male and female)...

Do these reflect on todays western culture and reinforcement of what we should all have - fast car, money, be beautiful, and successfully and seek that all important respect, or is it reflection of something completely different?


Thoughts?

Sociology Homework I suspect.

Reminds me of Stanley Cohen wink

Everyone loves the Sociology of Deviance etc.

Mindship
I don't think this is a "subculture" phenomenon at all.

IMO, we live in a world dominated by the Financial Elite: the movers and shakers of a money-driven, globe-encompassing Western culture which, for the rest of us (the cattle fodder) Promises More, Demands More and Delivers Less. In this context, people feel less secure / more anxious than ever. The quickest, cheapest path to re-empowerment? Exactly as socially engineered: appeal to the baser instincts (sex and violence) through a service or product, such that You (the cattle, um, consumer) can look and/or feel younger, sexier, "badder," etc.

The Libertine
Originally posted by Mindship
I don't think this is a "subculture" phenomenon at all.

IMO, we live in a world dominated by the Financial Elite: the movers and shakers of a money-driven, globe-encompassing Western culture which, for the rest of us (the cattle fodder) Promises More, Demands More and Delivers Less. In this context, people feel less secure / more anxious than ever. The quickest, cheapest path to re-empowerment? Exactly as socially engineered: appeal to the baser instincts (sex and violence) through a service or product, such that You (the cattle, um, consumer) can look and/or feel younger, sexier, "badder," etc.

You think that much thought is put into keeping us "down" when even for obviously educated people like you and I the ladder simply doesn't reach that high without a great deal of good fortune Mindship.

Mindship
Originally posted by The Libertine
You think that much thought is put into keeping us "down" when even for obviously educated people like you and I the ladder simply doesn't reach that high without a great deal of good fortune Mindship.

It's a complex mix of variables, to be sure. Luck, timing and especially the choices we make. This would include choosing to be more conscious of why we do the things we do, rather than responding trance-like to the status signals we are bombarded with 25/8.

The Libertine
Originally posted by Mindship
It's a complex mix of variables, to be sure. Luck, timing and especially the choices we make. This would include choosing to be more conscious of why we do the things we do, rather than responding trance-like to the status signals we are bombarded with 25/8.

Meh, I say it's an energy thing , most of us only have the energy to rise so far because the struggle is so great. We go to school do well, go to University do well, start work and reach a management position after say 10 years. Then a cap seems to happen for whatever reason. Unless we are ruthless and I simply don't enjoy climbing on peoplpe and raising myself at their expense which is what those in higher tier management in my field seem to have done. I prefer sleeping at night.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Mindship
I don't think this is a "subculture" phenomenon at all.

IMO, we live in a world dominated by the Financial Elite: the movers and shakers of a money-driven, globe-encompassing Western culture which, for the rest of us (the cattle fodder) Promises More, Demands More and Delivers Less. In this context, people feel less secure / more anxious than ever. The quickest, cheapest path to re-empowerment? Exactly as socially engineered: appeal to the baser instincts (sex and violence) through a service or product, such that You (the cattle, um, consumer) can look and/or feel younger, sexier, "badder," etc.

And I agree.

But do you not believe that subcultures such as ''bad ass hip hop gangster of 50 cent crew'' has embodied just that into their subculture?

Which is of course different (although not greatly) to a subculture of graffiti, where the symbolism of writing and expressing on public property has a more of a symbolism then perhaps a gun will?

On one side there is ''Culture as Crime'' on the other there is a 'Crime as Culture''

The Libertine
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
And I agree.

But do you not believe that subcultures such as ''bad ass hip hop gangster of 50 cent crew'' has embodied just that into their subculture?

Which is of course different (although not greatly) to a subculture of graffiti, where the symbolism of writing and expressing on public property has a more of a symbolism then perhaps a gun will?

On one side there is ''Culture as Crime'' on the other there is a 'Crime as Culture''

Yup it's all covered in the Chapter on "The Sociology of Deviance".

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by The Libertine
Yup it's all covered in the Chapter on "The Sociology of Deviance".

With regards that this is not a sociological debate on deviance, but a cultural.

The Libertine
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
With regards that this is not a sociological debate on deviance, but a cultural.

Cohen might feel the two and thesociology of media are intertwined. Finish the chapter and see! "Sub Cultures by there nature are a deviation from the cultural norm how they are portrayed is down to the media." Westman, 93 I believe wink Don't ask me the page though. I think it's on the sleeve notes.

Bardock42
I guess I see socks everywhere nowadays. They **** with your mind, I tell ya.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by The Libertine
Cohen might feel the two and thesociology of media are intertwined. Finish the chapter and see! "Sub Cultures by there nature are a deviation from the cultural norm how they are portrayed is down to the media." Westman, 93 I believe wink Don't ask me the page though. I think it's on the sleeve notes.

Cohen is the enemy!!!

No seriously, I thoguht for a second you were reading Giddens, and was about to dismiss you. stick out tongue

Cohen's subcultural theories (and not just Cohan's, Cloward and Ohlin's as well) have long acknowledged that actions and identities labeled criminal are typically generated within boundries of deciant and criminal subcultures. However, wile I agree, I partially disagree too because...

Wait, wati wait, are you talking bout Albert Cohen or Stanly Cohen, and which book are you reading?
(or maybe you're way ahead of me, with Phil cohen stick out tongue)

The Libertine
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Cohen is the enemy!!!

No seriously, I thoguht for a second you were reading Giddens, and was about to dismiss you. stick out tongue

Cohen's subcultural theories (and not just Cohan's, Cloward and Ohlin's as well) have long acknowledged that actions and identities labeled criminal are typically generated within boundries of deciant and criminal subcultures. However, wile I agree, I partially disagree too because...

Wait, wati wait, are you talking bout Albert Cohen or Stanly Cohen, and which book are you reading?
(or maybe you're way ahead of me, with Phil cohen stick out tongue)

I'm not reading either I have read all three, but I was alluding to Stanley via Westman. It is homework then? I was only kidding earlier. stick out tongue

debbiejo
This might sound a bit odd, but it could be that problems within certain subcultures and crime are brushed off by cities because it brings money into the court, enforcement systems and that keeps people employed.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by The Libertine
I'm not reading either I have read all three, but I was alluding to Stanley via Westman. It is homework then? I was only kidding earlier. stick out tongue

Nope. Its an assesment. But only part of course as you can tell. Im only intersted in what people think about subcultures and deviance.

Im writing a lenghty essay on Cultural Criminology, its contemporary nature and implications (since that is my position at the moment, while I very much appreciate Marxist ideas on society and crime, respectivelly).

I am currently flicking through Ferrell's and Presdee's work, in regards to implications of Media.
My main focus is, criminology as a whole, ie law deciding, what ones see as criminal, criminal behaviour or subcultures and of course media representations.

The Libertine
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Nope. Its an assesment. But only part of course as you can tell. Im only intersted in what people think about subcultures and deviance.

Im writing a lenghty essay on Cultural Criminology, its contemporary nature and implications (since that is my position at the moment, while I very much appreciate Marxist ideas on society and crime, respectivelly).

I am currently flicking through Ferrell's and Presdee's work, in regards to implications of Media.
My main focus is, criminology as a whole, ie law deciding, what ones see as criminal, criminal behaviour or subcultures and of course media representations.

It actually sounds pretty interesting. I'll have a think about it and reply properly in that case. Have a good day!

Mindship
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
But do you not believe that subcultures such as ''bad ass hip hop gangster of 50 cent crew'' has embodied just that into their subculture?
It's more "in your face" in this subculture, yes.


Agreed. It takes energy to be more conscious of one's motivations, the whats, the whys, of the choices we make and their consequences. And like you, I do Not choose to "empower myself" at the expense of others, if it's at all avoidable. That makes me a "fringe" citizen: someone who doesn't fully embrace society's favorite status-signals.

Anyone ever see "My Dinner With Andre?" Great movie.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Mindship
It's more "in your face" in this subculture, yes.


Agreed. It takes energy to be more conscious of one's motivations, the whats, the whys, of the choices we make and their consequences. And like you, I do Not choose to "empower myself" at the expense of others, if it's at all avoidable. That makes me a "fringe" citizen: someone who doesn't fully embrace society's favorite status-signals.

Anyone ever see "My Dinner With Andre?" Great movie.

Actually it makes you an immoral parasite, but close enough I guess.


The way you mean it at last.

botankus
Bardock, man, and I thought my Britney Spears/Big Bird sig and avi combo was bad!!

Bardock42
Originally posted by botankus
Bardock, man, and I thought my Britney Spears/Big Bird sig and avi combo was bad!!

I like it.

botankus
It's a great sig, don't get me wrong. It's just not as good as this:

Bardock42
Originally posted by botankus
It's a great sig, don't get me wrong. It's just not as good as this:

That you have to discuss with Scottie.

botankus
I did think about going back to this one:

Bardock42
That wass horrible, what about one without...the gay shit?

botankus
I agree, Mr. Hello Kitty avatar. What would you recommend?

Bardock42
Originally posted by botankus
I agree, Mr. Hello Kitty avatar. What would you recommend?

I don't know, I can't imagine you without a horribly homosexual sig anymore.

Mindship
Originally posted by Bardock42
Actually it makes you an immoral parasite, but close enough I guess.
The way you mean it at last.
"Immoral parasite?" huh You're gonna have to explain that one.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Mindship
"Immoral parasite?" huh You're gonna have to explain that one.

You don't use your fellow people jsut because you excel in something and produce value. That they happen to not be good enough to do it themselves just shows that they don't deserve it.

Tha C-Master
Originally posted by Alfheim
I think it can do in the case of hip hop. Everbody wants to be a gangster, even if their not deprived. That's because there's a market out their for gangsters. We reflect our cultures and subcultures and our cultures and subcultures reflect us. If there wasn't a market out there for being "gangsta" then people wouldn't want to imitate it... just like "emo". It's the big thing right now...

botankus
Originally posted by Bardock42
I like it.

I wouldn't trust her, Bardock. I only know 2 things about the OTF, and one of them is this: The Sanctuary and Friends thread was created by Melinda Warren, who was ruthlessly kicked to the curb after she did all the work setting up the thread. If you look at Melinda Warren's last posts, it's like watching a dying man's last breaths.

Mindship
Originally posted by Bardock42
You don't use your fellow people jsut because you excel in something and produce value. If I'm understanding you correctly, then, 'tis true, I don't.

That they happen to not be good enough to do it themselves just shows that they don't deserve it.
Not sure I agree with this one. There are indeed a lot of true parasites out there, but on the other hand, as Libertine mentioned, sometimes things just don't go a person's way...not that That is a lock-solid excuse not to take responsibility for one's life. Some would just see the extra obstacles as all the greater challenge.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Mindship
If I'm understanding you correctly, then, 'tis true, I don't.


Not sure I agree with this one. There are indeed a lot of true parasites out there, but on the other hand, as Libertine mentioned, sometimes things just don't go a person's way...not that That is a lock-solid excuse not to take responsibility for one's life. Some would just see the extra obstacles as all the greater challenge.

I agree that in our society lots of things go wrong. But in a true capitalistic society the people that deserve most would get most.

Oncewhite
So, you want people on line to do your homework, are you going to use citations or just plagiarize?

Either way, here's what I think: (tell'm oncewhite said it in your paper, lol, i'm kidding, you can use anything that's helpful for you)



Law deciding:

A good discussion about this is philosophy, if you read some French philosophers (before their revolution/civil war) , you'll run into the philosophy of weather criminals are tainted by their genes or if they were effected by their environment. The genetic aspect has always been a forefront issue with the Europeans, so much so, that punishment by death or torture seemed reasonable in certain eras. It makes sense, as sad as it maybe, if one is "bad" because it is inherently so, then wiping them or torturing them is reasonable under their type of thinking. However, if people aren't inherently bad, and they have an option to change, then torturing them seems to be unusual punishment, and is a plausible reason why the INTERPRETATION OF what is good punishment for breaking the law comes into mind. Les Miserabe is a great example. Look at the main character, as he was a man who stole bread b/c he was hungry, but during that time, INTERPRETATION of law was not important, it didn't matter WHY you stole, just that you stole, so therefore, you have the same character as all criminals and go to the same jail, so he was in debtors camp digging ditches, and you can watch the movie and see what happens, as they have a prostitute as a character, and he ends up being friends with her, all of their problems seem to be centered around poverty, as her excuse for prostitution was to feed herself, but the people around her saw her as a lower dimension and therefore, could be beaten on or spit on without restraint. And remember, in old European society, you were just as guilty as your parents, so if you dad was a bad person, his blot is on his son. WE all know that isn't fair, but that was a common mentality back then.

And let's take slavery in the America, some states didn't have laws against interracial marriages, but some states did, same with sodomy and other laws that was enacted. it depends on what's going on, if I see a law on the books, it tells me that there was probably a large portion of the population that was doing that particular act, so you can tell a lot about the past societies in different states just by studying the laws that was passed, it tells us alot about the prevalent acts but also, about the interpretation of these acts and the need to control it for the next generation.

I could talk more about this, but I will let you decipher all of this jumbled up information.

lil bitchiness
Its not my ''homework'' - I have passed doing homework 5 years ago.

I don't really need theoretical perspective or philosphies, I kow all my theory - I need to know how YOU (persumably, non-criminals) view the world of subcultures, presented in the first post, as criminal and do YOU think it causes criminal behaviour.

For example - a lot of people thought Marylin Manson and Goth subculture were doomed homocidal maniacs who are gonna all go back to school one day and shoot everyone - that still stands in a lot of cases.

So...anyone else on subcultures?

smoker4
I hate the whole chav culture and would gladly vote for a sterilisation bill to stop the little feckers breeding more parasites

Oncewhite
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Its not my ''homework'' - I have passed doing homework 5 years ago.

I don't really need theoretical perspective or philosphies, I kow all my theory - I need to know how YOU (persumably, non-criminals) view the world of subcultures, presented in the first post, as criminal and do YOU think it causes criminal behaviour.

For example - a lot of people thought Marylin Manson and Goth subculture were doomed homocidal maniacs who are gonna all go back to school one day and shoot everyone - that still stands in a lot of cases.

So...anyone else on subcultures?

I think people who are easily influenced and wanting to please their peer group would be more likely to participate in drug abuse or selling, stealing, joy riding a stolen car, etc.

The goth has to do with people who don't fit in or who don't want to fit in to the main stream, and if you are referring to Columbine, i hate to mention race again, but it was the cool black kids that were using the whites to pick on other whites, those "other" whites were goth like, and yeah, it turned very ugly, as the guys were not only into goth but also very racist, but one would wonder why, and there are few people who know WHO the bullying was coming from...white conduits picking on other whites, and the ones pulling the string of the white conduits were the "black cool kids" in Columbine.

AngryManatee
Subculture? I don't live underground... no expression

Mindship
Subculture, like aboard the USS Nautilus.

Quiero Mota
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Do you believe that a collective behaviour within certain subcultures, around a certain imagery, style and symbolic meaning reinforces criminal, or violent behaviour?


Its more than just "reinforced images". Crime is the point of subcultures. "Subculture" is just a sugar-coating word for, and an indirect way of saying organized crime. The Yakuza, Mafia, Tong, La Eme and the homeboys in the barrio are all examles of subcultures.

A lot of laymen think that "subcultures" are middle-class high school kids who wear Anti-flag and Iron Maiden T-shirts and have pink mohawks. That's so dumb its laughable. You take any of those "anti-authority" kids and thrust them into the cut-throat world of true subculture, and they wouldn't last a day.

Oncewhite
Originally posted by Quiero Mota


A lot of laymen think that "subcultures" are middle-class high school kids who wear Anti-flag and Iron Maiden T-shirts and have pink mohawks. That's so dumb its laughable. You take any of those "anti-authority" kids and thrust them into the cut-throat world of true subculture, and they wouldn't last a day.

they wouldn't last a day around animals, true, even the average civil person won't last a day in the jungle, so what? they will get eaten alive by a bunch of low dimensional people who want to TAKE TAKE TAKE TAKE and TAKE....SOMEHOW trying to "survive" in that kind of environment shouldn't be seen as a moment of glory or success, most civil societies know this, and that's why they do offer some deviation in culture as a way for youths to express themselves in a civil manner, outside of that environment, it's dog-eat-dog, cannibalistic, hatred-encouraged, crime intense culture.

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