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In honor of lightsnake's continued ignorance, I've made this thread on KMC so somebody else will shut him up..

Round 1. Sabers
Round 2. Force
Round 3. Overall

I've already provided an argument for Kun, who has more offensive weapons in his arsenal, while lightsnake has stated that Jacen became one with the force, so he is teh uber, so he wins. Anyways, go for it.

Jacen can become unseeable and unsensable in the force, instantly, and he can fight while doing this. Kun can contend with this...how?

Originally posted by allfg
Jacen can become unseeable and unsensable in the force, instantly, and he can fight while doing this. Kun can contend with this...how?

The question is, how will that help him go on the offensive against Kun, who has a barrage of offensive weapons? Nothing Jacen has is exactly offensive or will work on a DLOTS.

Here's how it will help; he'll go into this state of being, sneak up behind Kun (Kun can't see or sense him), and cut his head off. Game over, and Kun has nothing in his arsenal to stop that.

Originally posted by allfg
Here's how it will help; he'll go into this state of being, sneak up behind Kun (Kun can't see or sense him), and cut his head off. Game over, and Kun has nothing in his arsenal to stop that.
Sneak up behind him? He's not invisible lol, how is he going to sneak up behind him exactly? And is this before or after he gets an amulet blast to his skull?

According to Lightsnake, he does become invisible too. And his force bubbles can defend against turbolasers, so amulet blasts wouldn't be a factor here.

Originally posted by allfg
According to Lightsnake, he does become invisible too. And his force bubbles can defend against turbolasers, so amulet blasts wouldn't be a factor here.

Since when can his force bubbles stop a massive amount of energy? I call bullshit. And no, he doesn't become "Invisible", he becomes "invisible" in the force.

Considering Jacen can raise extremely powerful sheilds and absorb/deflect a lot of energy, as well as lash out with more than enough poer of his own...I wonder..

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Considering Jacen can raise extremely powerful sheilds and absorb/deflect a lot of energy, as well as lash out with more than enough poer of his own...I wonder..

Good thing that's proof that he can stop an amulet blast bigger than himself. Oh wait..

Considering that amulet blast is hardly as big as you seem to think, especially at first, that point is insanely moot

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Considering that amulet blast is hardly as big as you seem to think, especially at first, that point is insanely moot

Considering that the blast gets bigger quite fast, and I can bring in Advent's argument for that so you can shut up, I'd say my point isn't moot. But I enjoy this random bullshit you conjure up, yet it doesn't help your argument. BTW, Kas'im had a nice force shield too, before the temple fell on him.

Quantify how fast. There's zero proof from still panels of the rate of time passing. Quite frankly, advent and I reasoned this out more than a bit.

Oh, and Jacen> Kas'im by a huge margin in power and Kun's not throwing around seismic blasts in a temple, now is he?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Quantify how fast. There's zero proof from still panels of the rate of time passing. Quite frankly, advent and I reasoned this out more than a bit.
No, you kept replying with useless nonsense trying to salvage what was left of the argument, until you conceded. Zero proof? I guess you don't know how to follow the progression of panels.


No, he'll be destroying things left and right with the amulet blasts.

I'm sure he will. If all you have are baseless insults and assumptions, then you have no argument.

And prove how Kun's amulet blasts'll be 'destroying things left and right' like a demented woodchuck? Is he going to be firing around Jacen as the bladts become bigger-and they hardly get as big as you seem to think they do-

Or will Jacen simply deal with it right off? I wonder

Excellent match. While Kun does indeed have more weapons, In the ned Jacen will win.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'm sure he will. If all you have are baseless insults and assumptions, then you have no argument.
Except your argument(or bullshit as it looks like) has already been destroyed once, might as well do it again.



Do you need a lesson in history? His blasts destroy ANYTHING in their path. The argument about anyone outside of Luke stopping them has been destroyed time and time again. And yes, he will keep firing them as they get bigger and bigger, as he did with the sith wyrm. Again, stop trying to bullshit your way out of this argument unless you want me to repost what Advent wrote. And yes the blasts end up being bigger than a person.

Yes, yes, destroy anything we were shown, I'm sure. and I'm sure in your mind the argument was stopped.

Btw, never saw them that much bigger than Kun. Overrating much?

It's almost not worth it to respond to you. You end up turning things into nothing but a flame fest.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes, yes, destroy anything we were shown, I'm sure. and I'm sure in your mind the argument was stopped.
Actually I'm looking at the argument right now, so you really are delusional.


Underrating much"


Because you lack the debating skills in certain areas, and then you make a fool out of yourself when you're being outdebated.

Honestly, give it a rest. When you want to debate, get back to me. When you want to lob insults, look to Nebaris

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Honestly, give it a rest. When you want to debate, get back to me. When you want to lob insults, look to Nebaris

When you can show me that you are capable of debating without throwing around bullshit to fuel your fanboyism, then I'll consider it. Until then, either concede the argument or have your ass handed to you again.

Funny how you're the only one who feels that way.

Insecure much?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Funny how you're the only one who feels that way.

Insecure much?

Aww I am the only one who feels that way? That's adorable lightsnake. I've yet to see someone feel OTHERWISE. And it's adorable how your last resort is to "appeal" to other internet people to fight your depression. BTW what does me stating facts have to do with my apparent insecurities? Do you think before you type, or does your star wars obsession cloud your little brain?

You're talking, but noone's listening.

I advise taking a few debate classes

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You're talking, but noone's listening.

I advise taking a few debate classes


Aww how cute. You respond with "I know you are but what am I". That's so original lightsnake. Next time I tell you you suck at life, I advise you to repeat the same thing back at me. That will show me! What a brilliant debater you are, especially when you lose.

Add me to the list of people who don't agree with your assertions, DS. Lightsnake definately has debating ability and he is far from being incompetent or just "average" in that area. Neither are you. In fact, your "problem" is one that you both share - you get reckless and (in my opinion) are too quick to respond. You jump at impulse. Other than that, you're both great.

Escape, finally. Add your thoughts to this battle..

If I am to assume that this is LotF Jacen, then I would say that he is definately "more powerful" than Kun at this point. Jacen was able to match a Sith phantom of Luke (the phantom was supposed to be a "fair match for Luke" from Jacen and the narrator's perspective) in single combat. He was also described in either Bloodlines or Tempest as the most powerful Jedi in the Order other than Luke himself.

Luke is more powerful than Kun, and not by a mere small fraction.

However, I need to keep reminding myself that the strongest doesn't always win (ala Obi-Wan and Anakin). Kun has those amulet blasts, which I do believe are an incredible advantage, and I'd wager that he has more Sith knowledge than the neophyte Jacen.

So, I would say that it is close, but my stance is that Jacen is more powerful, in both the Force and overall mastery.

Originally posted by Gideon
If I am to assume that this is LotF Jacen, then I would say that he is definately "more powerful" than Kun at this point. Jacen was able to match a Sith phantom of Luke (the phantom was supposed to be a "fair match for Luke" from Jacen and the narrator's perspective) in single combat. He was also described in either Bloodlines or Tempest as the most powerful Jedi in the Order other than Luke himself.

Luke is more powerful than Kun, and not by a mere small fraction.

However, I need to keep reminding myself that the strongest doesn't always win (ala Obi-Wan and Anakin). Kun has those amulet blasts, which I do believe are an incredible advantage, and I'd wager that he has more Sith knowledge than the neophyte Jacen.

So, I would say that it is close, but my stance is that Jacen is more powerful, in both the Force and overall mastery.

Problem is escape, Kun has more weapons in his arsenal, a LOT more offensive weapons. What exactly does jacen have that's beneficial to him in a fight against an ancient DLOTS? We both know his saber skills are inferior to Kun, so what else is there for him?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Problem is escape, Kun has more weapons in his arsenal, a LOT more offensive weapons. What exactly does jacen have that's beneficial to him in a fight against an ancient DLOTS? We both know his saber skills are inferior to Kun, so what else is there for him?

His lightsaber skills are inferior to Kun? Again, he was able to match a Sith phantom of Luke blow-for-blow, and Luke is greater in both fields than Kun.

Originally posted by Gideon
His lightsaber skills are inferior to Kun? Again, he was able to match a Sith phantom of Luke blow-for-blow, and Luke is greater in both fields than Kun.

Was Luke going all out? Was Jacen't power being amplified by Lumiya? don't you think that fight was a little too ambiguous to be a deciding factor for Jacen's saber skills? There's no evidence that shows they are better than Kun's, nor on par.

Yeah, that was an evil version of Luke most certainly not holding back.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Honestly, give it a rest. When you want to debate, get back to me. When you want to lob insults, look to Nebaris

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, that was an evil version of Luke most certainly not holding back.

You do not know the details of that fight so you can't even go on that in terms of his saber skills, which still do not equate to Kun's.

I don't know the details even though they were written? Riiight.

I'd say killing slayers helps, too. And fighting Tsavong.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I don't know the details even though they were written? Riiight.

I'd say killing slayers helps, too. And fighting Tsavong.


No, you don't know the details because they fought force versions of themselves. For all you know Jacen could have had the power of Lumiya, or Luke wasn't going all out. You DONT know that they were fighting their hardest, in fact I have the book right in front of me. And I don't think killing slayers puts him above Kun in saber combat, because he's not. Kun never lost a saber fight while being described as a prodigy. On the other hand nothing is ever stated about Jacen's saber skills, so no reason to assume otherwise just because it's convenient.

No, I know the details because of the fact they were written in the book.

And Kun fought very few people. Even in his own war....wow.
And Jacen doesn't need any statements on his saber skills. Like Luke, he's shown ample abilities

Jacen Solo wins.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, I know the details because of the fact they were written in the book.
No no, LUKE has shown that he doesn't need any statements, and KUN has shown he doesn't need any statements. Yet you find one example with jacen and suddenly he's teh uber. Logic>Fanboyism.

Kun's shown he doesn't? dueling people, who for the most part, were thoroughly unimpressive means little. If you bothered to read, you'd see Jacen's abilities.

Logic most certainly does>Fanboyism and it's trumping yours

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Kun's shown he doesn't? dueling people, who for the most part, were thoroughly unimpressive means little. If you bothered to read, you'd see Jacen's abilities.

Logic most certainly does>Fanboyism and it's trumping yours

Oh how cute, repeat what I said back to me, thanks parrot. Considering I dislike Kun and you're embarassing yourself with the Jacen fanboyism, I guess logic defeats your argument yet again. So are you going to keep on crying or are you going to get over it? And I guess you forgot what Kun's spirit did to Luke and his students, but please, show us some more denial. I think it's getting humorous.

I'll take this as an 'I don't have any points', thank you.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'll take this as an 'I don't have any points', thank you.

And yet again, the parrot repeats what I said back to me. Way to go lightsnake, you're the epitome of originality. Yet another lost debate for you.. Wait let me guess... "I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I HAHAHA PWNED!". Idiot.

Now, I'm just posting for its own sake, I admit it

Nobody cares, shut up.

Yet, here I stay

Congratulations lightsnake, maybe you can give us more of the "Well I have more internet friends than you" humor.

Your anger is funny

Oh yes, my anger, because it's so evident!! Let me guess, you're "laughing" at my "anger".

I honestly, for the first time cant decide on this battle. The best I can say is that its 50/50.

Jacen is indeed more powerful then Kun is, but he lacks any major abilities that could trump Kun's own. So yea...I dunno. 'Could go either way' is the best I can put it I guess.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
I honestly, for the first time cant decide on this battle. The best I can say is that its 50/50.

Jacen is indeed more powerful then Kun is, but he lacks any major abilities that could trump Kun's own. So yea...I dunno. 'Could go either way' is the best I can put it I guess.
I agree with this view.

Exar Kun can give Jacen one hell of a fight and this fight can go either way. It is more like 50/50 situation here.

Round 1: Tie.
Round 2: Can't decide. Both Jacen and Kun are strong in the Force. But after what Kun did to DE Luke, it is very difficult to decide.
Round 3: 50/50 Situation. (Kun can use Amulets to gain some advantage)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I agree with this view.

Exar Kun can give Jacen one hell of a fight and this fight can go either way. It is more like 50/50 situation here.

Round 1: Tie.
Round 2: Can't decide. Both Jacen and Kun are strong in the Force. But after what Kun did to DE Luke, it is very difficult to decide.
Round 3: 50/50 Situation. (Kun can use Amulets to gain some advantage)
On number 2: You mean attack him from behind when he's completely distracted?

he still pwned him as a spirit.

Ok. so Jaden Korr pwned Marka Ragnos, Kun got pwned by toddlers, Ludo Kressh got pwned by a brick...

Kun attacked a distracted Luke from behind. Wow. the power.

Irrelevant misdirection, loser?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ok. so Jaden Korr pwned Marka Ragnos, Kun got pwned by toddlers, Ludo Kressh got pwned by a brick...

Kun attacked a distracted Luke from behind. Wow. the power.

Irrelevant misdirection, loser?

Irrelevant misdirection? Says the idiot who is making excuses for Luke while downplaying Kun and the ancients with his retarded logic? Gee, you should really think about what you type before you type it, so you can avoid embarassing yourself and coming off like an angry nerd.

There's no 'exxcuse'...that's fact.

And big talk from the internet marketer who apparently spends so much time here.

Projection and lack of argument? Very noticeable. No wonder you were kicked off EOD

Originally posted by Lightsnake
There's no 'exxcuse'...that's fact.

And big talk from the internet marketer who apparently spends so much time here.

Projection and lack of argument? Very noticeable. No wonder you were kicked off EOD


Awww how cute. The social outcast nerd likes to play psuedo intellectual word games. Btw, parroting what I said to you makes you look sad. Obviously you don't know what projection is, otherwise you wouldn't be using the word in that context. And yes, big talk from an internet marketer who comes on here for fun to deal with nerds who take this shit so seriously that they lose sleep over it.. And I was kicked off of EOD for being an *******, I can have any of your "antedeluvians" attest to that, nerd.


Btw, I spelled excuse right, so you look even more like a moron when you try to be a smartass and correct already correct spelling. Learn to debate before embarassing yourself. I'd say the same for your debating skills but they're about as much of a lost cause as you.

Keep telling yourself that, big man.

Night

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Keep telling yourself that, big man.

Night

Awww that's precious lightsnake. Please don't cry over this stuff, it's going to seriously damage your college life(if that exists).

I'm just going to keep laughing at your insecure, impotent insults

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'm just going to keep laughing at your insecure, impotent insults

Insecure? Impotent? ROFL? Do you know what impotent is? That's the problem with being an antisocial psuedointellectual nerd. You try really hard to think of a comeback, and then you sound like a jackass when you project your sad life on other people.. You're hilarious lightsnake, please keep up the comedy.

Stiiiiill laughing.

Seriously, don't stop posting

Repeating what I'm saying? LOL... That's precious lightsnake. Keep parroting my posts...

seriously, keep going. this's fun

Oh I'm sure, it's basically full pages of me repeating myself. That's cute lightsnake, I didn't know you envy me so much. But when you're unoriginal, what else CAN you do. I'm glad you're having so much "fun" from a star wars forum, rather than going outside.

It's funny how you just don't stop, TdTd...
You've reminded everyone why you've been outcast at both forums before. Be proud

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's funny how you just don't stop, TdTd...
You've reminded everyone why you've been outcast at both forums before. Be proud

Lets see, you've reminded everyone why you're a social outcast, while I've reminded you why I've been kicked off an INTERNET forum? I rest my case lightsnake, get some friends. Then again I could just bring up your 6 month hiatus from KMC because you were verbally pwned and you couldn't handle it, then how everyone made fun of you on KMC. Way to go internet stud, you're a winner

You keep thinking that, kiddo. I'd suggest taking a course on learning how to debate.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You keep thinking that, kiddo. I'd suggest taking a course on learning how to debate.

Considering that was my original suggestion to you, I think I'll stick to what I have now and let you continue embarassing yourself by repeating my words. For someone that keeps losing debates left and right, you sure are delusional. But hey, everyone who is antisocial is delusional to a certain extent, internet stud.

*Stupid insult, bragging and general jackassery in one statement*

Typical

Originally posted by Lightsnake
*Stupid insult, bragging and general jackassery in one statement*

Typical

parroting, denial, delusion, etc. What else can we expect from you lightsnake? I'm surprised you haven't broke down and admitted that KMC is your life.

am I psychic or are you predictable?

And 'keeps losing debates?' Yeah. Sure. Whatever. Funny how that only tners when you get pissy.

When you repeat everything I say back to me and when you're in your own little antisocial world of denial, I would expect that you know what I'm going to type because you're just going to retype it, stud.

And no, I don't get pissy with you. You're an antisocial internet nerd who considers KMC his life, and who lies to himself. I feel bad for you more than anything.

LOL, Richard Jenny has nothing on you...

I find it hilarious the spammer keeps projecting.

How sad. Oh, and for the record? My life's great. So are my friends. So's school. And my family.

But thanks for trying to analyze me and my personal life!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
LOL, Richard Jenny has nothing on you...

I find it hilarious the spammer keeps projecting.

How sad. Oh, and for the record? My life's great. So are my friends. So's school. And my family.

But thanks for trying to analyze me and my personal life!


What friends? What life? Your life is worrying about your internet popularity, telling yourself you have any real debating abilities, and lying to yourself. You come off as purely antisocial, and psuedointellectual. Btw do you know what projection is? Or are you going to copy what I say to you again? I know you're only 17 but I think the "I know you are but what am I" game died back in middle school?

Btw, I can pay for my education? Can you? Or are you blowing mommy and daddy's money in order to sit in your room alone all day and argue star wars?

It's funny how you manage to determine all this from disagreements on an internet

And yeah, you're projecting: You're a bitter antisocial little ******* who can't stand people being smarter than him or disagreeing with him, thus managing to throw his views out like they mean something, trying to tear people down whenever they happen to express negative views and can't argue to save his life.

And btw, wantAdvent to tell you about my personal life or debating skills? Escape maybe?

Amazing...only someone as sad as you could turn a debate on the side into a personal attack. All because the other party disagrees with him.

And friends/life/work is all still good! Your idiotic claims won't make it otherwise.
But, maybe you have trouble recognizing them

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And yeah, you're projecting: You're a bitter antisocial little ******* who can't stand people being smarter than him or disagreeing with him, thus managing to throw his views out like they mean something, trying to tear people down whenever they happen to express negative views and can't argue to save his life.
Evidence of you repeating what I've already said to you? I rest my case lightsnake, thanks for proving it. Too bad you don't count as someone smarter than me, or someone that can debate, but again, denial is a powerful weapon. In your next post I expect you to tell me I'm in denial, since you're repeating me.


Worrying about internet popularity? I rest my case again. Yea your life is grrrrrrrrrrrreat!


Sure thing stud.


Neither will your denial..

Then again the more you type the more you prove my case, so please, go ahead. And don't let denial stand in your way, it hasn't yet, despite your humiliation.

I'll just settle for reporting you, sit back and watch you make more of an idiot out of yourself

Good lord LOL you really ARE repeating everything I say to you. What are you going to report me with? And wouldn't that be a little hypocritical considering you're just repeating everything I say to you? My my, I thought you were sad before this one, but DAMN. I never actually thought you would become a parrot. How does it feel to embarass yourself?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
What friends? What life? Your life is worrying about your internet popularity, telling yourself you have any real debating abilities, and lying to yourself. You come off as purely antisocial, and psuedointellectual. Btw do you know what projection is? Or are you going to copy what I say to you again? I know you're only 17 but I think the "I know you are but what am I" game died back in middle school?

Btw, I can pay for my education? Can you? Or are you blowing mommy and daddy's money in order to sit in your room alone all day and argue star wars?

Who're you trying to impress, DS? Is there something in your life troubling you that you feel the need to brag and get so worked up? Or does the fact that someone may have people who give a damn about them so foreign and alien you can just do nothing but lash out and decide to attack people

What'd Styles say? Oh, yes: Who's the one on here at 2 in the morning, assaulting people through the computer?

I'm just amused at how pathetic you are.

Btw, why should I care about your dick waving? I debate as a fun way to pass the time between real life. No more complicated than that.

seriously, don't know what brought this on. Me disagreeing with you over a fictional scenario gets you worked up?

It's amazing. Really is. Isn't it funny when anyone disagrees with you, your method is to flame them constantly and offer no supporting evidence to your platform? Is it really that important to you?

Quite frankly, don't much care what you think about me. At the end of the day, you'll be the bitter prick you are now, and I'll be continuing to be working hard and having fun on the weekends.

Thanks for the debate. normal consciousness will resume

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Who're you trying to impress, DS? Is there something in your life troubling you that you feel the need to brag and get so worked up? Or does the fact that someone may have people who give a damn about them so foreign and alien you can just do nothing but lash out and decide to attack people
Repetition, thanks for your input.


The same one that plays the "I know you are but what am I" game, and lives for internet popularity.


Likewise, except your denial is all that's saving you from severe depression.


Oh yes, because anybody other than you believes that you don't take this seriously. Now in case you try to be a smartass and claim an appeal of majority fallacy, we can just take a look at your sad posts and see how worked up you get.

seriously, don't know what brought this on. Me disagreeing with you over a fictional scenario gets you worked up?


Just because my argument was better than yours, doesn't mean I haven't offered anything. In fact you always take the "You have no evidence" route when you've been thoroughly defeated. Once again, Denial 5, lightsnake 0.


Aw lightsnake you don't need to lie about your life to impress little old me. Be yourself, live on these forums.



What are you, a robot?

Girls, girls, calm down! You're both pretty! Please try and get back on topic. Your insults are only entertaining each other, and, it has very little to do with the fight.

Now, do you plan on getting on track, or am I going to have to close this?

I think Jacen wins after a long battle

So, jacen vs exar, lightsnake vs darth sexy? lol, in the first match i give a tie (i don't like jacen that much really, but it seems he is strong...), in the second i refuse to answer, i don't want to suffet the consequences loool

Lets examine the fight between Luke and Jacen for a minute and see if Jacen really does rival Luke or not.

So first of all, who was more prepared for a fight? Jacen was. Luke was totally unprepared for a fight where Jacen was ready to fight.

Second, Luke was not going nearly full out on Jacen. Why didn't we hear anything about "20 sabers" or "a maelstrom of the Force" or "to fast to see" or anything like those that would show that he was fighting anywhere near his limit?

Next, against the argument that I know will come (that the phantom was a Darksider and would have naturally gone full out). The phantoms only appeared to be darksiders to the person that they were fighting. In reality the phantom was doing exactly what Luke was doing exactly as Luke did it. No actual Darkside intentions there.

We're talking about an evil, Dark Side vision of Luke...that's a BIT different. Jacen still perceived it otherwise and what he was fighting was the darkness there. ...that's kind of an odd theory there

Odd theory? You mean Luke saw an evil jacen and was going all out? Weird, that's not how it seems.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
We're talking about an evil, Dark Side vision of Luke...that's a BIT different. Jacen still perceived it otherwise and what he was fighting was the darkness there. ...that's kind of an odd theory there

If Luke was fighting hard why are there so many things missing?

1. No descriptions of Luke being extremely powerful. When Luke goes full out it has always said something like "20 sabers" or "a maelstrom of the Force" or "to fast to see". There was none of that this time and I think it was the authors intent to make us know that Luke wasn't fighting his hardest.

2. Where are the incredible Force attacks? Did Luke just forget how to use Emerald Lightning (I have my own theory on this though as to why he did not use it)? If Luke was using powerful Force attacks like he would if fighting full out his room would have been totalled. There is no mention of any damage.

3. Luke rarely goes full out on opponents anyway. Why would this be an exception?

We're talking about Allston here....Allston, unlike Luceno does not place overly fancy descriptions of things. And since when does Luke randomly span Emerald lightning anymore than Kun spams his amulet blasts, or Vader uses force choke in every saber duel? There seems to be an unwritten rule here

And this is an evil, dark side Luke with no inhibitions or reasons to hold back. No reason he'd hold back.

Is the lack of description from a different author and force attacks-wich are usually absent from saber duels- all?

The Phantom Luke that Jacen fought only appeared to be evil, LS. In reality (at least as far as SW is concerned) Jacen was not fighting an evil version of Luke but instead the real Luke with an evil image casted over him by Lumiya. It was infact Luke that Jacen was fighting, not a creation of Lumiya. Lumiya doesn't have anywhere near skill enough to create something fighting on anywhere near Luke's level anyway.

No, but it doesn't take much to summon one when you're in a Dark Side nexus home of a dead Sith Lord.

There is zero evidence to suggest Luke was going all out, as opposed to Jacen, who was.

Lets us also not forget that Jacen is newly crowned Sith Lord, so once again Jacen wins.

Originally posted by LORDSIDIOUS01
Lets us also not forget that Jacen is newly crowned Sith Lord, so once again Jacen wins.


Ugh, maybe you should look up the definition for "argument".

Originally posted by LORDSIDIOUS01
Lets us also not forget that Jacen is newly crowned Sith Lord, so once again Jacen wins. Damn straight, end of debate right here. LORDSIDIOUS01 has provided WAY too many facts for us to come to any other conclusion.

HAHAHA

We just can't compete with someone of his talent.

Anyway, I think the following will defeat any notion that Luke was trying hard against Jacen in Betrayal.

Pg. 340 "The not-Jacen struck, a fast, powerful lateral blow that Luke met with little effort, without conscious thought. Not-Jacen's blade was immediately in guard position for an anticipated counterstrike, but Luke held back. "

Luke met Jacen's attacks with ease and is directly stated to have held back.

Pg. 351 "Well, I'm bot sure what our disagreement is, but perhaps it could be settled by talking."

Luke didn't even want to fight. He was asking the not-Jacen to talk instead.

Pg. 354 "It was no use. The false Luke adapted instantly to this change in tactics, reverting to a softer, defensive style, turning away each of Jacen's all out attacks. And he did so grinning, silently mocking.

As can be clearly seen by this passage, Luke is very much superior to Jacen. Luke turned away Jacen's all out attacks with a smile on his face; totally unworried.

Amen. Exar Kun>Jacen

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
We just can't compete with someone of his talent.

Anyway, I think the following will defeat any notion that Luke was trying hard against Jacen in Betrayal.

Pg. 340 "The not-Jacen struck, a fast, powerful lateral blow that Luke met with little effort, without conscious thought. Not-Jacen's blade was immediately in guard position for an anticipated counterstrike, but Luke held back. "

Luke met Jacen's attacks with ease and is directly stated to have held back.

Pg. 351 "Well, I'm bot sure what our disagreement is, but perhaps it could be settled by talking."

Luke didn't even want to fight. He was asking the not-Jacen to talk instead.

Pg. 354 "It was no use. The false Luke adapted instantly to this change in tactics, reverting to a softer, defensive style, turning away each of Jacen's all out attacks. And he did so grinning, silently mocking.

As can be clearly seen by this passage, Luke is very much superior to Jacen. Luke turned away Jacen's all out attacks with a smile on his face; totally unworried.
You destroyed all the hype about Jacen here.

Now I have started to feel that Exar Kun is more deadly then Jacen.

Of course he is more deadly

....being outmatched by Luke means Jacen is less deadly than Kun? Luke feels how powerful Jacen is several times over and Jacen feats are far more impressive. DS's ponytail fetish won't change that

Everybody hail Kun!!! Know i am giving it 51/49 to kun...

And isn't the fight against Luke a little bit misplaced, we are talking about possibly the strongest Jedi to have lived, mean look at what he has accomplished and what he is capable of, Exar Kun is a favorite character of mine too, but nowhere Near Luke Skywalker that was capable of distorting a Force Storm created by Palpatine, I would like to see Jacen ore Exar for that matter pul that off,
The way I see it Exar is stronger then Jacen when it comes down to use of the Force, Exar has the amulet and a great understanding of the dark side (attrived from Naga Shadow and Freedon Nadd), this combined will be capable of defeating Jacen.
By lightsaber duel I am puzzeld both are great swordsmen in each respected period, It basically comes down to weather, Jacen will be capable of defeating himself against a doublebladed weapon, I think he will and therefore gives this to Jacen.
The last one the overall I simply haven't the experties too come with a satisfing answear, but Jacen would be the most likely candidate he is after all grandson of the Chosen One.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
....being outmatched by Luke means Jacen is less deadly than Kun? Luke feels how powerful Jacen is several times over and Jacen feats are far more impressive. DS's ponytail fetish won't change that

Neither will lightsnake's denial and verbal fellatio of Jacen Solo. The sad this is that anytime you're being outdebated, someone apparently is a fanboy when there is only one clear fanboy here and we all know who that is, and it's evident in all of your posts. Now please hush, unless you want to continue arguing out of your ass and losing.

Btw, just because you believe Jacen has had more impressive feats(using feat wars in a lost argument is sad) in your own little twisted mind, doesn't make it so. Too bad you can't come up with an argument, but I expect your witty retort to be a complete replica of what I said back to me, mixed with a hint of denial.

You go back to fantasizing about ponytails. Also, take a debate course or two.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You go back to fantasizing about ponytails. Also, take a debate course or two.


Repeating what I said, living in denial, I rest my case. Stop embarassing yourself by making me seem like a psychic lightsnake. You've lost the debate, get over it or whine like a little girl. Either way your posts are both sad AND Hilarious, stupid delusional fanboy.

Originally posted by Utrigita
And isn't the fight against Luke a little bit misplaced, we are talking about possibly the strongest Jedi to have lived, mean look at what he has accomplished and what he is capable of, Exar Kun is a favorite character of mine too, but nowhere Near Luke Skywalker that was capable of distorting a Force Storm created by Palpatine, I would like to see Jacen ore Exar for that matter pul that off,
Luke is not like a God.

Originally posted by Utrigita
The way I see it Exar is stronger then Jacen when it comes down to use of the Force, Exar has the amulet and a great understanding of the dark side (attrived from Naga Shadow and Freedon Nadd), this combined will be capable of defeating Jacen.
You have a point here. After what Exar (as a 4000 year old spirit) did to DE Luke, I don't see that he is weak in the Force.

Originally posted by Utrigita
By lightsaber duel I am puzzeld both are great swordsmen in each respected period, It basically comes down to weather, Jacen will be capable of defeating himself against a doublebladed weapon, I think he will and therefore gives this to Jacen.
No! Exar Kun was also a superb swordsman. I don't see Jacen having an upper hand even in this case.

Originally posted by Utrigita
The last one the overall I simply haven't the experties too come with a satisfing answear, but Jacen would be the most likely candidate he is after all grandson of the Chosen One.
What kind of logic is this?

Just because he is grandson of The Chosen One, so it means that he has the upper hand?

I understand that Jacen will be a big threat to Exar Kun but Kun still has the upperhand. He knows some techniques that even Luke could not defend against.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Luke is not like a God.
He's the most powerful being in SW. Period


You mean attacked him from behind when he wasdistracted with Kyp whom he didn't want to hurt?


Jacen's a great swordsman, too, so what? Jacen's destroyed Slayers head on, as well as having gone to head with Tsavong Lah


would you bother actually LISTENING?
This is Luke decades before, when his knowledge base was much smaller, and Jacen's knowledge base is great in itself considering by NJO alone. And Exar ATTACKED HIM FROM BEHIND WHEN HE WAS DISTRACTED, they did not face one another head on. Otherwise, Exar's spirit would've been obliterated.
And how does Exar have the upper hand? His speshul Ancient knowledge? His DBL? His ponytail?
Jacen's potential far exceeds Exar's, and he's doing a damn fine job realizing it

Too bad you don't know Jacen's potential lightsnake. Jacen's force knowledge exceeds anybody elses in terms of overall variety, that is ALL. Kun's force knowledge pertaining to combat FAR trumps Jacen's. I find it funny and at the same time pathetic when you lose an argument or can't make an argument for your favorite characters, and as a result you go on the defensive, degrading characters you don't like. It makes you seem childish and pathetic, considering the great lengths you go to to tell yourself you can debate, can win debates, and that your characters are the best.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He's the most powerful being in SW. Period
Do you think that I don't know this?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You mean attacked him from behind when he wasdistracted with Kyp whom he didn't want to hurt?
Was Kyp not possessed by Kun's spirit?

Did battle between Luke and possessed Kyp not took place?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Jacen's a great swordsman, too, so what? Jacen's destroyed Slayers head on, as well as having gone to head with Tsavong Lah
And Slayers are the most martial beings in the entire Star Wars Saga? Obviously a flawed assumption.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
would you bother actually LISTENING?
This is Luke decades before, when his knowledge base was much smaller, and Jacen's knowledge base is great in itself considering by NJO alone. And Exar ATTACKED HIM FROM BEHIND WHEN HE WAS DISTRACTED, they did not face one another head on. Otherwise, Exar's spirit would've been obliterated.
Another flawed assumption that Kun's spirit would be destroyed by Luke in a direct confrontation. How do you know this?

And DE Luke is not that far behind from the NJO Luke.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And how does Exar have the upper hand? His speshul Ancient knowledge? His DBL? His ponytail?
Jacen's potential far exceeds Exar's, and he's doing a damn fine job realizing it
And how does Jacen has the upperhand? Because he fought and killed some slayers? Pathetic analysis indeed.

And how do you know that Jacen's potential was far greater then that of Kun? Stop making baseless assumptions.

You also said that Jacen could contend with Luke in a fight and yet someone destroyed this arguement right on your face. So stop fooling people around.

DE Luke IS far beyond NJO Luke legend. They are NOT close.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
DE Luke IS far beyond NJO Luke legend. They are NOT close.
How huge is this gap?

Some feats based comparison will be appreciated.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Luke is not like a God.


You have a point here. After what Exar (as a 4000 year old spirit) did to DE Luke, I don't see that he is weak in the Force.


No! Exar Kun was also a superb swordsman. I don't see Jacen having an upper hand even in this case.


What kind of logic is this?

Just because he is grandson of The Chosen One, so it means that he has the upper hand?

I understand that Jacen will be a big threat to Exar Kun but Kun still has the upper hand. He knows some techniques that even Luke could not defend against.

It wasn't my wish to make Luke look like a god, I mealy pointed out that Luke is far more stronger in the force then either of the discussed and constantly evolved and quickly learning strong feats in the force, I just pointed out him disrupting a force storm.

Thanks Luke tuned on his lightsaber and Kyp Durron turned to face him and used his powers to strangle the Lightsaber in Darkside energy and then used Dark Snakes ore something like that to put Luke into trance. I am sorry but I would like the passage LS where Exar Kun attacks Luke from behind because it isn't on the top of the Temple.

They are both great Swordsmen what I am saying is that we have very little information on either, on sabercombat stile, Exar Kun defeated many jedies yes, and Jacen was already shortly after having build his lightsaber good at using it. But from there to say that Exar Kun was a superb Swordsman and him having the upper hand I disagree on, we doesn't see him preform some great and marvelous feats, remember it was first with his DoubleBladed Sword that he really became dangerous, I believe he was the first to wield it, this of cause say something about his saberskill be equal of his arrogance the doublebladed weapon was never to be used in battle but mealy for practice, using it require great skill and equal arrogance to think you can. (doesn't look like Maul only wielded by one hand)

By saying the Chosen One I was saying that his potential Force Potential possibly would be higher the last was a overall and taking the above listed feats into consideration, I assumed that Jacen would have higher Raw force potential, but not necessary be best at using it in a Force battle.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
How huge is this gap?

Some feats based comparison will be appreciated.

Quite huge actually. He literally became a force god by NJO, mainly the Vong War, and even more powerful by the Dark Nest Crisis. You can look his feats up on wiki or star wars wiki because they're all accurate.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Quite huge actually. He literally became a force god by NJO, mainly the Vong War, and even more powerful by the Dark Nest Crisis. You can look his feats up on wiki or star wars wiki because they're all accurate.
He indeed became more powerful by NJO period. But it is not like that DE Luke is 50% of NJO Luke.

DE Luke was already impressive and faster then a normal eye could see.

I would argue that NJO/DN/LOTF Luke is twice as powerful as DE Luke.

please do sexy I always liked Luke very much, because of his potential.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Quite huge actually. He literally became a force god by NJO, mainly the Vong War, and even more powerful by the Dark Nest Crisis. You can look his feats up on wiki or star wars wiki because they're all accurate. The only thing in accurate bout wiki is when they claimed luke wielded 20 sabers which didnt happen according to what i read, he was just badass fast killing vong after vong and jacen stated luke might as well hold 20 sabers because luke is so damm fast

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Do you think that I don't know this?


Kyp was never possessed, thank you. When the battle was taking place, Kun attacked Luke from behind.
something indecipherable?


Lol. Top warriors of the elite Yuuzhan VOng warrior class, when one of the top Jedi Masters of the NJO couldn't even take a dying one, with skin almost saber resistant?
Yeah. Right.


Because Luke is much more powerful than Kun? If Kun could take Luke in a fair confrontation from the start, he would have

I love your evidence!


Why does Kun? He's 'speshul?' He killed people of no significance whatsoever?
We SAW what slayers were capable of

He's a Skywalker, for one, and Luke believes Jacen's potential rivals his own.


Um...no? If Glentract posts the rest of that, I'm sure we'll see the rest.
Luke himself seems to feel Jacen would be a problem for him. Is Luke just humble? Hm.

Lightsnake, nobody cares if Kun killed anyone that wasn't of consequence(which is your opinion). Not only is that a poor argument but it is also irrelevant and it has no bearing on who is more powerful. Luke thinking Jacen MIGHT rival him(prove it) also means little in a fight between Kun and Jacen. I suppose Kyp>Kun too since Luke at one point thought he would rival him. It's already been established that Kun has more offensive weapons, and more darkside techniques, while Jacen hasn't shown much, or as much against force users. He can have all the knowledge of the 'unifying force' that he desires, yet it won't matter when Kun tools him.

Lightsnake, 1 question, where is it said that Luke definitely has a higher potential than anyone other than Anakin? It's pretty clear that Anakin had the highest, but for all you know, there were a select few that had a potential just below his (Bane, Zannah, Exar Kun, Revan, Kyp Durron), and it's certainly possible that Luke doesn't even have half the potential Anakin has.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Kyp was never possessed, thank you. When the battle was taking place, Kun attacked Luke from behind.
something indecipherable?
And your mighty Luke failed to counter his attack. Wasn't Luke lot more powerful then Kun and Kyp at that time in your eyes and should have tooled them both?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Lol. Top warriors of the elite Yuuzhan VOng warrior class, when one of the top Jedi Masters of the NJO couldn't even take a dying one, with skin almost saber resistant?
Yeah. Right.
They were good but they still had some weaknesses that got exploited and resulted in their failure. Again, Exar Kun > Slayer by a good margin.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Because Luke is much more powerful than Kun? If Kun could take Luke in a fair confrontation from the start, he would have
Again, you don't know that DE Luke is much more powerful then Kun. And DLOTS Kun would have won in a direct one-on-one confrontation against DE Luke because of his special Dark Side Techniques (that Luke could not defend against).

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I love your evidence!
You provide me a better one then.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Why does Kun? He's 'speshul?' He killed people of no significance whatsoever?
We SAW what slayers were capable of
People of no significance in your eyes actually. And how about that senate episode?

And Slayers were capable of killing Jedi. So were Mandalorians and some other powerful races. And still all ended up banged by powerful Jedi. Nothing new!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He's a Skywalker, for one, and Luke believes Jacen's potential rivals his own.
Yeah! he is a skywalker so he rules!

And Luke considered Kyp to be his rival too. Guess what? Luke is more powerful then Jacen and even Kyp.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Um...no? If Glentract posts the rest of that, I'm sure we'll see the rest.
Luke himself seems to feel Jacen would be a problem for him. Is Luke just humble? Hm.
Glentract destroyed your old argument of over-hyping of Jacen.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And your mighty Luke failed to counter his attack. Wasn't Luke lot more powerful then Kun and Kyp at that time in your eyes and should have tooled them both?
Stop being dense.
Luke was busy with Kyp when Kun's attack hit him. We see Kol Skywalker deflecting lightning at one point...how does he die? He's HIT BY FORCE LIGHTNING. How the **** do you counter what's already hit you?


What weaknesses? Being outfought by a superior? What exactly are these weaknesses?
Please


Luke can apparently stand to Palpatine, who's the strongest Sith ever by a nice margin.
And Luke, for the last effing time, was caught off guard and hit from behind, with no chance to defend himself. Now, are you going to stop being stupid?


Make your own argument. Then I'll destroy it


Wow...he could control less than 4,000 people....Joruus C'Baoth and Palpatine put that to shame

Huh, funny...we saw Jedi destroying Mandalorians in HUGE numbers beforehand-Komari vosa killed twenty at one point- and funny how only the Skywalkers could fight the slayers.
Kyp Durron, one of the strongest Jedi who ever lived couldn't even defeat a dying, poisoned Slayer.


That's the way it works.

Funny, now...I recall all that 'Kyp close to Luke' BS from KYP'S POV...and what'd Allston say? Kyp just thinks he's near Luke.
Luke is absolutely worried about Jacen


I think I'll trust Luke before I trust you and him

Originally posted by allfg
Lightsnake, 1 question, where is it said that Luke definitely has a higher potential than anyone other than Anakin? It's pretty clear that Anakin had the highest, but for all you know, there were a select few that had a potential just below his (Bane, Zannah, Exar Kun, Revan, Kyp Durron), and it's certainly possible that Luke doesn't even have half the potential Anakin has.

And it is also possible that the possesses anakins times a thousands who knows, and yet Sidious saw Luke as the greatest threat in the movies, having had a encounter with Yoda, and still saw Luke as the most potent threat and the a great apprentice considering how Anakin was looked apon by Sidious in the Movies then brush him away to get Luke I think it speaks quiet clearly for Lukes potential.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Stop being dense.
Luke was busy with Kyp when Kun's attack hit him. We see Kol Skywalker deflecting lightning at one point...how does he die? He's HIT BY FORCE LIGHTNING. How the **** do you counter what's already hit you?
The way you portray Luke, he should win in any situation.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
What weaknesses? Being outfought by a superior? What exactly are these weaknesses?
Please
The crab armour had weak points at the armpit and inner hip where the segments joined. And Slayers despite being exceptional warriors have not been known to kill Jedi in open combat.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Luke can apparently stand to Palpatine, who's the strongest Sith ever by a nice margin.
And Luke, for the last effing time, was caught off guard and hit from behind, with no chance to defend himself. Now, are you going to stop being stupid?
Kun is among the TOP Sith too.

Luke could have sensed Kun's spirit and destroyed it before it touched him. No wait! he was distracted! So he was not extra-ordinary.

Stop degrading Kun and I will stop.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Make your own argument. Then I'll destroy it
No! you provide me a comparison of power between DE Luke and NJO Luke.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Wow...he could control less than 4,000 people....Joruus C'Baoth and Palpatine put that to shame
Numbers of irrelevant. Thousands of people present there were no match for him.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Huh, funny...we saw Jedi destroying Mandalorians in HUGE numbers beforehand-Komari vosa killed twenty at one point- and funny how only the Skywalkers could fight the slayers.
Kyp Durron, one of the strongest Jedi who ever lived couldn't even defeat a dying, poisoned Slayer.
No matter what you say, Slayers ended up being defeated and thus proved to be no better then others.

And Kyp's fighting skills are not so elite then. Jacen and Luke did well against the Slayers, so they proved to be better fighters then Kyp.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's the way it works.
In your mind.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Funny, now...I recall all that 'Kyp close to Luke' BS from KYP'S POV...and what'd Allston say? Kyp just thinks he's near Luke.
Luke is absolutely worried about Jacen
Kyp's Force Mastery is close to that of Luke's. Jacen is not close yet and Luke is more worried about Jacen's fall to Dark Side.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I think I'll trust Luke before I trust you and him
Hmm! Fanboyism at its best.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The way you portray Luke, he should win in any situation.
In a straight up fair fight? Yes. When distracted, double teamed and surprised from behind? Different story


Because they were only employed in two instances. Secondly, they don't wear armor. Know why? Because their skin is like Vong armor. they have no weakpoints because they've been changed a lot. a lightsaber slashed over their chest left only a small furrow.



You mean while he was busy with Kyp? How the hell does one sense a Force Ghost all of a sudden? PErhaps you can educate me? By this logic, no issues sniffing out FREEDON NADD for experienced Jedi Masters on Onderon...
Geez....lame point

losing against Jacen isn't degrading


Twenty something years and more impressive feats.


Thousands of ordinary humans. Trillions of minds were apparently no match for Palpatine...tens of thousands no match for C'baoth. So?

Defeated by...Jacen and Luke....is this not telling you anything? Seriously?

Is the point I'm making over your head completely? Kyp was one of the top Jedi ever by that point and has displayed extreme power. That Jacen can take on several creatures when Kyp can't kill a dying one is extreme evidence to Jacen's ability


Fact


No, no Kyp's not. According to Allston: all that is from Kyp's POV alone and Kyp only thinks he's that good.
Corran Horn thought the same for a while. Then he realized he'd only be good to hold Luke's cloak for him

Trusting Luke's dialogue on Jacen?
Right

This is ridiculous. Jacen's potential is unknown. Jacen's overall force knowledge exceeds even Luke's but that doesn't equate to combat. Kun easily trumps Jacen in offensive force abilities and dark side knowledge. Kun is a better lightsaber duelist than Jacen. And for you to "destroy" an argument lightsnake, you'd have to make a better one than anyone here, which you haven't.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
In a straight up fair fight? Yes. When distracted, double teamed and surprised from behind? Different story
And who made things unfavourable for Luke so that Luke would be defeated? It was kun.

Kun over-powered Kyp so that Luke won't be able to defeat him and then he himself attacked Luke and it was game-over. Now you understand the bigger picture? The point is that Kun (even as a spirit) posed a major threat to Luke.

And you can't precisely say that how fight between DE Luke and Kun would have turned out.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Because they were only employed in two instances. Secondly, they don't wear armor. Know why? Because their skin is like Vong armor. they have no weakpoints because they've been changed a lot. a lightsaber slashed over their chest left only a small furrow.
Jacen and Luke managed to kill them, didn't they? So their armours were not 100% Saber resistant.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You mean while he was busy with Kyp? How the hell does one sense a Force Ghost all of a sudden? PErhaps you can educate me? By this logic, no issues sniffing out FREEDON NADD for experienced Jedi Masters on Onderon...
Geez....lame point
Well it was his weakness that he could not fully sense the presense of a Force Ghost or he would have reacted differently or adopted a different strategy. Thus Kun took advantage and struck.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
losing against Jacen isn't degrading
Kun has upperhand over Jacen.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Twenty something years and more impressive feats.
Time is irrelevant. And what are these more impressive feats?

If killing many Vong is one of these feats then DE Luke could also do that because he was already faster then a normal eye could see and was matching palpatine in Saber Skills.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Thousands of ordinary humans. Trillions of minds were apparently no match for Palpatine...tens of thousands no match for C'baoth. So?
Thousands of ordinary humans and those Jedi as well who tried to stop him.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Defeated by...Jacen and Luke....is this not telling you anything? Seriously?
Luke's case can be understood. Jacen is far inferior to Luke in Saber Skills as proved by Glanteract. So I still have some doubts about these so called invincible Slayers who have not been known to kill a single Jedi.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Is the point I'm making over your head completely? Kyp was one of the top Jedi ever by that point and has displayed extreme power. That Jacen can take on several creatures when Kyp can't kill a dying one is extreme evidence to Jacen's ability
Kyp's Force Mastery is irrelevant in case of his Saber Skills. Jacen and Luke proved to be much better then him in Saber Combat.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Fact
In your mind.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, no Kyp's not. According to Allston: all that is from Kyp's POV alone and Kyp only thinks he's that good.
Corran Horn thought the same for a while. Then he realized he'd only be good to hold Luke's cloak for him
Kyp's Force Mastery does rivals that of Luke but not his Saber Skills.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Trusting Luke's dialogue on Jacen?
Right
Glentract's point (which he took from a canon source) have proved you wrong already.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And who made things unfavourable for Luke so that Luke would be defeated? It was kun.
How, exactly?
Dude, if someone can deflect a bullet, it won't help if a sniper takes a shot at their back in a swordfight

Um, Luke would defeat Kun without much fuss. He didn't want to hurt Kyp, at all.
See my analogy

I can tell it's likely Luke would defeat him.


Mainly because they were striking with enough force and skill


What the hell? Luke was busy with Kyp...you can't expect a distracted master focused on something to not sense a Force Ghost...hell, what's next....Yoda and Mace are weak for not sensing Palp?


Um, how?


Time to power is way relevant...don't see DE Luke using Emerald Lightning instakills or one saber as if it's twenty

Yep, true.


1. Kun controlled far less ordinary humans than Palp or Joruus did.
2. That freezing did nothing to the Jedi


How was it proved? a Dark Side Luke testing him?
And again: the Slayers were shown to fight twice and a dying one CRUSHED KYP DURRON IN COMBAT


and considering Kyp is one of the best around period, that says a lot

Please...provide a counter


Noone's saber skills rival Luke's.


Yeah. you mean a small piece of the big picture? Or how luke does seem to think Jacen's second only to him?

Originally posted by Lightsnake

DE Luke would defeat a full bodied Exar Kun? What are YOU smoking?

again what are you smoking


Really? Because there were more people in the fleet Joruus controlled than there were in the entire senate chamber? Lets try that one again.






Is this the best you can do? Luke thinking Jacen rivals him=superiority to Kun? Lets be serious now. Again, Luke thought the same with Kyp, should we consider him superior to Kun too? Please.

The fact is Kun has more offensive weapons pertaining to combat, the end. If you can't deal with that, it's your problem.

DE Luke being boosted by the entire lightside plus Liea and baby Anakin > Kun, anyday of the week

DE Luke at really any other point, not so much.

How, exactly?
Dude, if someone can deflect a bullet, it won't help if a sniper takes a shot at their back in a swordfight

The bottom line is that the book specifically stated that nothing Yoda or Ben had taught Luke was capable of defending him from Exar's attack. Even if Luke had been ready for it he didn't know the defense against it.

After he was hit? Yeah. Nothing's going to help him, then. I saw Kol Skywalker die under similar circumstances and he'd just been deflecting lightning a few pages ago

Wrong. What it says is that nothing Yoda or Ben had taught Luke could be used to protect him. It doesn't matter if Exar had been like, "Hey, uh, I'm gonna use some weird technique on you in about fifteen minutes. Just thought I'd let you know. Maybe you could work up a defense or something." Luke still would have been screwed because he had no idea how to block it. There might not be any defense against it period. Remember Traya's saying, "there are techniques in the Force against which there is no defense." Luke would be screwed no matter what.

because he was, A. Hit already-notice that 'nothing worked bit' happens...after he was hit? and he was with Ben for....a few days? Yoda for a month max? I'm sure what to do incase you fight an ancient Sith spirit was top of the priorities

Yeah, Glentract, love the blatant Exar bias. And considering Traya was referring to Nihilus's technique...Luke would obliterate Exar head on with a simple Force Light.

blatant Exar Kun bias? I could just as well turn it around and say that you're a Jacen Solo fanboy, yet we can me a case for Exar Kun pwning Jacen.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
How, exactly?
Dude, if someone can deflect a bullet, it won't help if a sniper takes a shot at their back in a swordfight
What are you - 2 years old?

Kun over-powered Luke's favourite student so that Luke won't be able to pawn him. Then when Luke was engaged with this over-powered Kyp, Kun decided to end the fight quickly my making his own move. This entire scenario clearly shows that Kun made things un-easier for Luke and created such circumstances in which he would easily defeat Luke and he succeeded with ease. So my point stands that Kun even as a spirit was a major threat to Luke.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Um, Luke would defeat Kun without much fuss. He didn't want to hurt Kyp, at all.
See my analogy
He did not wanted to hurt Kyp but was he ready to die by him as well? NO!

And DE Luke won't be able to beat physical Kun because he knows no defense against Kun's special DS techniques that Kun used on him. Also Amulets ring some bells.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I can tell it's likely Luke would defeat him.
This is your arguement? Empty Claims.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Mainly because they were striking with enough force and skill
Or they were much better fighters then Kyp.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
What the hell? Luke was busy with Kyp...you can't expect a distracted master focused on something to not sense a Force Ghost...hell, what's next....Yoda and Mace are weak for not sensing Palp?
Even in a straight up fight Luke would have lost because of the reason that I have described above.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Um, how?
Advantage of Amulets and knowledge of more dangerous DS techniques, that even Luke could not defend against. And Kun is an exceptional match for him even in Saber Combat. Jacen holds no noticeable advantage over Kun, so you should give up.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Time to power is way relevant...don't see DE Luke using Emerald Lightning instakills or one saber as if it's twenty
Constant learning is what helps and not time period.

OK! Emerald Lightning is one feat, so this is one advantage he has.

Regarding Saber Skills, DE Luke was not far behind his NJO counter-part because he was already a match for palpatine's Saber Skills and DE palpatine is not so behind NJO Luke in Saber skills, because both DE Luke and palpatine could move faster then a eye could see and were like blurrs. See my logic?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yep, true.
So NJO Luke holds no noticeable advantage over DE Luke apart from Emrald Lightning and more refined Saber Skills?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Kun controlled far less ordinary humans than Palp or Joruus did.
2. That freezing did nothing to the Jedi
Numbers are irrelevant in this case. If there would be more people in senate, then they would also had suffered the same thing too. So I don't see Exar Kun being weak in this case. Stop using childesh approach for your arguements.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
How was it proved? a Dark Side Luke testing him?
And again: the Slayers were shown to fight twice and a dying one CRUSHED KYP DURRON IN COMBAT
And that Luke comfortably countered all Jacen's moves. Can you notice this?

Also Kyp's not so impressive Saber Skills has to do more with his failure agianst a dying Slayer. Those who were better then him, did well.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
and considering Kyp is one of the best around period, that says a lot
I am talking about his Saber Skills and not his power. These are two different things.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Please...provide a counter
Only Anakin had the highest potential in entire SW Saga but Luke's potential is also very close because the son could become what his father could not after suffering horrible injuries. Then there are some more people with reasonably high potentials like Kyp, Jacen, Revan and Yoda. And we do not see Leia and Jaina having potential that rivals that of Luke's or even that of Jacen, Revan, Yoda and Kyp. And yet these two ladies are also part of Skywalker family. So being a Skywalker does not means that you are always the best.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Noone's saber skills rival Luke's.
Palpatine's?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah. you mean a small piece of the big picture? Or how luke does seem to think Jacen's second only to him?
Jacen is 2nd only to Luke? This is questionable because of existance of Kyp in LOTF period and some ancient ones like Yoda and Revan. And I would put Yoda above Jacen with ease. And Revan and Kyp are exceptional match for him. But if we are considering NJO Jedi Order only then even in this case, Jacen being 2nd is far behind Luke as proven by that fight.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

So NJO Luke holds no noticeable advantage over DE Luke apart from Emrald Lightning and more refined Saber Skills?


No, that includes walking across lava, cloaking an entire planet, tearing apart a ISD engine and alot of others

Again, NJO Luke>DE Luke by a CONSIDERABLE margin. However, a physical Exar Kun would pwn DE Luke because of his offensive weapons. Jacen doesn't stand much chance either.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What are you - 2 years old?

Kun over-powered Luke's favourite student so that Luke won't be able to pawn him. Then when Luke was engaged with this over-powered Kyp, Kun decided to end the fight quickly my making his own move. This entire scenario clearly shows that Kun made things un-easier for Luke and created such circumstances in which he would easily defeat Luke and he succeeded with ease. So my point stands that Kun even as a spirit was a major threat to Luke.
No, Luke was holding back against Kyp. Last time Kun overpowered a student, Luke was able to toy with and decimate him. *Clap clap* Go Kun. And you're point has nothing to do with a combat scenario


Wow! I can randomly capitalize stuff too! Luke held back against Kyp and Kun, coward that he is, seized a chance. No more, no less. Luke was in no danger from Kyp truly.

And DE Luke won't be able to beat physical Kun because he knows no defense against Kun's special DS techniques that Kun used on him. Also Amulets ring some bells.
Now you're just being a fool: Palpatine didn't use the Force against Luke because he knew it'd be useless so he forced a saber duel.
Unless you're gonna BOTHER to tell me Palpatine's weaker than Kun, I'd advise you to shut up


Facts, actually. Either counter them or shut your mouth


who's one of the best fighters around period.


Yeah. You're wrong. K, thanks for playing. Take the fanboyism out of this


When Kun displays force powers toJacen's level, becomes one with the Force in entirety, defeats creatures that can take out Kyp Durron, one of the strongest Jedi with ease...and Luke learned from Palpatine himself...Palpatine knew that the Dark Side techniques were no use against a fully powered Luke.
See that? Kun's far superior in power and knowledge knew that. And those amulet blasts? easily dodgeable for someone who moves faster than the eye can see


Which is what Luke kinda, y'know, did

So...ok, DE Luke would beat Kun as well? If there's no power gap, then I suppose Kun has no chance


And general refinement of power


But there weren't more people. Palpatine and Joruus displayed more power than him on far greater scales.


Or can you notice that a small paragraph is not the full story?

You mean Kyp Durron, who was able to cut through Vong with ease, outmanuever a Leviathan, dissipate lightning with his hands...
Kyp's an exceptional saber fighter.


except they're not. Saber skill and attunement to the force are correlated and Kyp is an exceptional duelist


Ben and the Skywalker twins have just about the same potential, did you notice that?
Any Skywalker's potential dwarfs Kun's


In DE? Yes. NJO? No

As of LOTF, Jacen is second only to Luke with maybe...two other people in the saga above him. Luke feels Jacen getting steadily more powerful and fears him turning to the Dark Side...and maybe you didn't notice how Jacen destroyed a group of fresh creatures when Kyp couldn't even take a dying one.
jacen is second only to Luke in the order. That means he's above Kyp

First off, don't give me this nonsense that because DE Luke managed to defeat DE Sidious in saber combat, that he can defeat Luke, because you know how quickly I can destroy that argument. By DE, Luke is no match for Exar Kun. And as for the quoted post, Jacen is second to Luke in YOUR opinion, NOTHING ELSE. Jacen still does NOT have the offensive weapons to fight Kun, so stop wasting your time.

Actually Jacen is confirmed to be the second strongest in the Order, behind Luke, in the third LOTF book (it's name eludes me). This is proof that Jacen is stronger than Kyp as far as I'm concerned. However, it doesn't mean that Jacen would necessarily win in a fight with Kyp. Kyp seems far more combat orientated so might win.

what does this have to do with Kun?

It helps to clarify Jacen's strength level. Then it can be better put into relation against Exar.

which is still below Kun in a 1 on 1.