Tolkein was a "prophet".

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Alfheim
Anybody who is interested in Norse paganism/ heathenism and who has read anything by Tolkein will now that Tolkein studied the Norse tradition in-depth.

Tolkein studied heathenism so much that he even developed his own language Elvish. As far as I know Tolkein did not create this language from scratch (well its impossble to create anything from scratch, everything has an influence) and is actually based on heathen languages.

Alot of people might think that The Lord of The Rings is just a fun book, but in my opinion it can be just as important as The Bible when teaching moral lessons, in fact it could be argued that it would be even better.

In the LOTR (Lord Of The Rings) Tolkein identified what was wrong with the Viking world and the present world. People are just too greedy everybody wants to be better than everbody else and nobody wants to share. This is the corruption which all creatures had which the ring used to work on. This is why Frodo was such an important character, Frodo didnt care about power all he wanted to do was hang out with his friends. Bare in mind this does not mean that we should all be wasters. Frodo was not a lay about he just did not want to be powerful.

This is an important point, if people were more interested in just being "happy" instead of the accumulation of power the world would be a happier place.

The LOTR is also about racial unity and tolerance. In the LOTR there are different races but they are all important. In the end its because all the races joined togther which enabled the world to be saved. Not only that there are races with different characteristics but they were all special. Despite the fact that Hobbits were small in stature their passion and loyalty helped make a difference.

Another important point if we spent more time looking at peoples hearts instead of their stature and physical appearance this would improve the world also.

So I think Tolkein was a "prophet" in the sense that he studied the religon of the Vikings and he identfied what was wrong with their world and identified what was wrong with this world. Tolkein has created books which teach us great moral teachings for now and forever. Discuss.

Shakyamunison
He was also a great writer. I wish they would do The Hobbit as a movie.

I saw a show once that showed how LOTR was about WWII. There are many parallels.

Alliance
Tolkein also freaked out and wrote 3 huge books because a highway was built through his hometown. erm

If having studied something makes you a prophet, I'm a prophet in many things...I think thats false.

Tolkein also has overarching racism, anti-industrialism and his novels are reactionary. I don't really consider those valuble contributions.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Alliance
Tolkein also has overarching racism

This is interesting. Do continue...

I never read any books, but this interests me.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
This is interesting. Do continue...

I never read any books, but this interests me.

You have never read any of his books? eek!

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You have never read any of his books? eek!


blink No...it just never itnerested me as much.

Much like damn Harry Potter. But I've seen the movies....last week for the first time embarrasment

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
blink No...it just never itnerested me as much.

Much like damn Harry Potter. But I've seen the movies....last week for the first time embarrasment

I recommend The Hobbit over LOTR any day.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Alliance
Tolkein also freaked out and wrote 3 huge books because a highway was built through his hometown. erm

Is that how you see it?

Originally posted by Alliance

If having studied something makes you a prophet, I'm a prophet in many things...I think thats false.

Well "prophet" was in speech marks. I also said that he his writing has good moral teachings.


Originally posted by Alliance

Tolkein also has overarching racism,

Well ok prove it. LOTR can be seen to be metaphorical since there are many races in it.

Originally posted by Alliance

anti-industrialism

So he wasnt to keen on it, and? All he was doing was pointing out how industralism can destroy the world. Obvoulsy industralism has its good points and bad points.

Originally posted by Alliance

and his novels are reactionary.

Alot of things are reactionary.

Originally posted by Alliance

I don't really consider those valuble contributions.

I dont know seems like you are making a sweeping generalisation to me. You have focused on all the negative points and ignored the positive. I dont get it.

debbiejo
He knew C.S. Lewis and they used to read each others works and make suggestions.

I heard the same.

Alfheim
Originally posted by debbiejo
He knew C.S. Lewis and they used to read each others works and make suggestions.

I heard the same.

Ive heard that as well, but it was obvoulsy influenced by Norse lore as well. To be quite honest its about mankind in general.

Ushgarak
Tolkien's entire world revolves around hereditary/genetic right to rule. It's hardly a guide on modern ethics and nor was it intended as such.

It's also rather male-dominated. In fact, specifically, no woman can rightfully rule Humans in it.

Ushgarak
As for LOTR being based on WWII- Expressly and eloquently denied by Tolkien.

WrathfulDwarf
Tolkien a Prophet? Nope, a great storyteller? Yessir.

It's our Mythology....let's treasure it.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Tolkien's entire world revolves around hereditary/genetic right to rule.

Ok fair enough. Im not sure if that was to be taken that seriously

Originally posted by Ushgarak

It's hardly a guide on modern ethics and nor was it intended as such.


I dont know about that. Ypu can obvoulsy see that friendship and unity are also important aspects of the book.

Originally posted by Ushgarak

It's also rather male-dominated. In fact, specifically, no woman can rightfully rule Humans in it.

That sucks. Im not sure if he actually believed that or he was basing some of the aspects on Norse traditions.

Ushgarak
Well... I mean, Enid Blyton has a lot to say about friendship and unity (and, apparerently, a fair undercurrent of white supremacy also). Just because something is a theme in your book that does not make it some sort of call to arms in the style of a religious text.

Regret
Originally posted by Alfheim
Anybody who is interested in Norse paganism/ heathenism and who has read anything by Tolkein will now that Tolkein studied the Norse tradition in-depth.

Tolkein studied heathenism so much that he even developed his own language Elvish. As far as I know Tolkein did not create this language from scratch (well its impossble to create anything from scratch, everything has an influence) and is actually based on heathen languages.

Alot of people might think that The Lord of The Rings is just a fun book, but in my opinion it can be just as important as The Bible when teaching moral lessons, in fact it could be argued that it would be even better.

In the LOTR (Lord Of The Rings) Tolkein identified what was wrong with the Viking world and the present world. People are just too greedy everybody wants to be better than everbody else and nobody wants to share. This is the corruption which all creatures had which the ring used to work on. This is why Frodo was such an important character, Frodo didnt care about power all he wanted to do was hang out with his friends. Bare in mind this does not mean that we should all be wasters. Frodo was not a lay about he just did not want to be powerful.

This is an important point, if people were more interested in just being "happy" instead of the accumulation of power the world would be a happier place.

The LOTR is also about racial unity and tolerance. In the LOTR there are different races but they are all important. In the end its because all the races joined togther which enabled the world to be saved. Not only that there are races with different characteristics but they were all special. Despite the fact that Hobbits were small in stature their passion and loyalty helped make a difference.

Another important point if we spent more time looking at peoples hearts instead of their stature and physical appearance this would improve the world also.

So I think Tolkein was a "prophet" in the sense that he studied the religon of the Vikings and he identfied what was wrong with their world and identified what was wrong with this world. Tolkein has created books which teach us great moral teachings for now and forever. Discuss. Tolkein hated having his work considered allegory.

Tolkein created the Elvish language from scratch, although I doubt it did not incidentally include aspects of languages he knew of, his profession was linguist, and he spent many years defining the language.

Tolkein's books were meant to create a modern mythology for the world at the time, he saw that the mythology was dying off and becoming lost, he viewed this as a sad thing and endeavored to create a new and lasting mythology.

Do some real research before making statements about great men.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well... I mean, Enid Blyton has a lot to say about friendship and unity (and, apparerently, a fair undercurrent of white supremacy also).

Well I dont think Enid Blyton books are set on a global scale.

Originally posted by Ushgarak

Just because something is a theme in your book that does not make it some sort of call to arms in the style of a religious text.

Well this is the thing im not sure if you have analysed the level of detail that the LOTR. It doesnt just say that greed is bad, it explains how people become evil and what it does to them. Also alot of stuff is symbolic. Enid Blyton are just kids books in the LOTR the characters are far more complicated.

It also explains how your worst enemies are not neccesarily strangers but your best friends or allies.

Bare in mid that alot of ideas were also taken from the religon of the thinkings. eg Middle Earth is obvoulsy based on the Norse Midgard.

Mid = Middle Gard = Earth.

Ushgarak
Err, I am afraid that if you think LOTR goes into this in more detail than dozens, or hundreds, of other works you are somewhat mistaken. Frankly, I'd say Blyton hts all of those notes at some point, in her own way. And who cares about the scale? You saying Tolkien becomes irrelevant once we get off Earth? It's the underlying message that is important, not the scale.

I would also say that actually LOTR says very little about how people become evil. Several of the most important bad guys were turned evil by a magical object, hmm?

Slyððering
Alfheim: Irregardless of influences, Tolkien did invent his Elvish languages "from scratch," sketching out an entire faux linguistic-history.

And I think you're reading far too heavily into the prevalence of Tolkien's work: It is a piece of fiction, a story of morals and the success of good over evil. I agree that it was certainly designed to be a mold of Northern Germanic and Christian religious-themes. But comparison with the Bible, or any other Holy Scripture? Is that anything other than blasphemy?

EDIT: His name is spelt Tolkien, by the way.

chillmeistergen
It's possible to read a lot more than necessary into alot of different works, even if there were all these connotations in LOTR and the Hobbit they are what you make them, people will all have different opinions of the book. It seems to me that there are no right or wrong things to read into the books. If you have been personally enlightened by them then that's all that matters.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Alfheim

Tolkein studied heathenism so much that he even developed his own language Elvish. As far as I know Tolkein did not create this language from scratch (well its impossble to create anything from scratch, everything has an influence) and is actually based on heathen languages.



Originally posted by Regret
Tolkein hated having his work considered allegory.

Well I said that it was based on Norse lore.....am I wrong?

Originally posted by Regret

Tolkein created the Elvish language from scratch,

Originally posted by Regret

although I doubt it did not incidentally include aspects of languages he knew of, his profession was linguist, and he spent many years defining the language.

Well thats what I said.....

Originally posted by Alfheim

Tolkein studied heathenism so much that he even developed his own language Elvish. As far as I know Tolkein did not create this language from scratch (well its impossble to create anything from scratch, everything has an influence) and is actually based on heathen languages.



Originally posted by Regret

Tolkein's books were meant to create a modern mythology for the world at the time, he saw that the mythology was dying off and becoming lost, he viewed this as a sad thing and endeavored to create a new and lasting mythology.

Well yeah I know that.

Originally posted by Regret

Do some real research before making statements about great men.

Well I said that the LOTR was based on Norse Lore. Am I wrong?

I didnt actually say that it was allegorical but obvoulsy it dealt with issues that the present world was dealing with.

With all due respecty it just seems like your telling me off for no reason.

Regret
An allegory is an abstract representation of some idea or principle. Tolkien hated his works being considered allegorical. They were not some abstract representation of the problems of the world or any other such rubbish. He was a linguist, he understood the full meaning of the term "allegorical".

They were not based in existent mythologies, no. They were intended to be new.

Alfheim

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Regret
They were not based in existent mythologies, no. They were intended to be new.

confused

Despite similarites to Norse Mythology?

Alfheim
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
confused

Despite similarites to Norse Mythology?

Exactly. Its so obvious I dont even want to get into it.

Regret
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
confused

Despite similarites to Norse Mythology? Similar does not mean based in. Tolkien's works are similar to a large number of mythologies, they are not based in these mythologies.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Regret
Similar does not mean based in. Tolkien's works are similar to a large number of mythologies, they are not based in these mythologies.

This sounds like semantics to me. Whats your defintion of based.

Slyððering
Originally posted by Alfheim
So he created the language out of thin air? Obvously he based on other languages.




Remember im just discussing this im not saying he is a prophet im just saying its subjective. LOTR is a story about morals and triumph over evil, so is the Bible.



If you look at the title thats how its spelt. serioulsy when you say things like that it gives the impression you dindt come to discuss but argue.



Serioulsy you dont know what you're talking about you need to read some stories from the Norse tradition. Tolkien got the names of characters and concepts from Norse lore.

What? STAR WARS is a moral story of good conquering evil. Does that make George Lucas a prophet?

Tolkien did not create his languages out of thin air. Quenya shows obvious influences from Finnish, and Sindarin from Welsh, but you the way in which you stated it, you made it sound as if Tolkien somehow stole parts from languages and turned them into his own language. Tolkien spent nearly all his life developing and perfecting his languages, and one could say with some certainty that they had far removed themselves from their influences by the time of their creator's death.

Being someone who has studied Tolkien for most of his personal and professional life, I think I may know what I'm talking about.

And BTW, his surname is not spelt properly in the title, so please, do not patronize me.

Regret
Originally posted by Alfheim
This sounds like semantics to me. Whats your defintion of based. Based would be wholly originated from. Tolkien drew from various cultures and mythologies in the creation of middle earth, I do not deny this, but the books are not based in any single mythology. They are meant as a new mythology amalgamated from the various European mythologies that were dying off. Finnish, Welsh, Celtic, Norse are all in there, and probably others I am unaware of.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Regret
Similar does not mean based in. Tolkien's works are similar to a large number of mythologies, they are not based in these mythologies.

He was a smart well read person who had a large amount of exposure to Norse and Old English mythology. The idea that they had no influence is kind of odd.

chillmeistergen

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Regret
Based would be wholly originated from. Tolkien drew from various cultures and mythologies in the creation of middle earth, I do not deny this, but the books are not based in any single mythology. They are meant as a new mythology amalgamated from the various European mythologies that were dying off.

Oh I get what you're saying.

But an amaglamation is still based on many different mythologies even though it is unique in and of itself.

Slyððering
Originally posted by Regret
Based would be wholly originated from. Tolkien drew from various cultures and mythologies in the creation of middle earth, I do not deny this, but the books are not based in any single mythology. They are meant as a new mythology amalgamated from the various European mythologies that were dying off. Finnish, Welsh, Celtic, Norse are all in there, and probably others I am unaware of.

I partially disagree. Close inspection points to Tolkien drawing more heavily from the myths of the Norsemen and the Finns than any other, although the term "Middle-earth" is common to many.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
you're behaving like an idiot. Calm down and think how you would approach this in real life and not on the internet, I don't think you'd do anything because you're probably a coward.

I'm sorry if I've offended you, but I dislike being patronized by someone who has no idea what he's talking about.

Regret
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Oh I get what you're saying.

But an amaglamation is still based on many different mythologies even though it is unique in and of itself. Yes, but to say it is based in Norse mythology is inaccurate. Some aspects yes, but the entirety no.

Alfheim

chillmeistergen

Alfheim

chillmeistergen
I think you should all calm down. Tolkien was a great writer we all appreciate that, isn't that enough? Is there really a need to go into debates about Elvish and morals?

Regret
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well this is the thing eventhough I mentioned Norse lore obvoulsy if you study Norse lore and culture you will know that the above cultures you mentioned would have influenced Norse culture. So its like your stating the obvious to me, maybe I did not make myself clear enough. Except for the Finns those other cultures you mentioned are Indo-European. Im actually interested in doing research on The Finns because in the Alfish aspects of Norse Lore they are very important. Also the Celts mixed with alot of Germanic tribes and would have obvoulsy influenced Norse lore.

So by default if you study Norse lore you will study other cultures. So then a more correct statement would be: Tolkien's works were based in Indo-European mythology.

I was arguing semantics, but to state "based in Norse mythology" is a bit more narrow a statement than I believe Tolkien's works deserve.

Slyððering
Originally posted by Alfheim
So basically because I made a small mistake with the spelling I dont know what im talking about. So verything else ive been saying is rubbish?

I shouldn't have said that. But I still find your comparison of one work of fiction to the most popular and perhaps most highly-regarded religious text....well, blasphemous.

Ah, perhaps I've been too literal. Tolkien didn't steal from Norse mythology, but used it as a base upon which to structure what he defined (in the fictional context) as the "true mythology," from which all stories ultimately derive. But the influence of mythology (in general) is better seen in The Silmarillion. LotR has modern touches which make it more alluring to modern audiences.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Regret
So then a more correct statement would be: Tolkien's works were based in Indo-European mythology.

I was arguing semantics, but to state "based in Norse mythology" is a bit more narrow a statement than I believe Tolkien's works deserve.

Wel to be quite honest it seems still that most of his ideas were derived from Norse Lore.

Midgard - Middle Earth
Gandalf - Looks almost exactly like Odin and the actual name is taken from the Norse sagas
The word Alf is Norse. The Celts called them the Fae or the sidhe.
Odin has nine rings that recreate themslves every nine days

etc.

Serioulsy the list goes on and on. I still think that most of it was derived from Norse Lore, a 4 year old can see that when you start reading Norse lore in depth.

Slyððering
Originally posted by Alfheim
Wel to be quite honest it seems still that most of his ideas were derived from Norse Lore.

Midgard - Middle Earth
Gandalf - Looks almost exactly like Odin and the actual name is taken from the Norse sagas
The word Alf is Norse. The Celts called them the Fae or the sidhe.
Odin has nine rings that recreate themslves every nine days

etc.

Serioulsy the list goes on and on. I still think that most of it was derived from Norse Lore, a 4 year old can see that when you start reading Norse lore in depth.

Again, he obviously based his mythologies in a specifically Northern Germanic tradition, but are you right to condemn his works for this? What if I said that the Biblical Flood-story likely derived from an older myth, more akin to the Babylonian myth of Gilgamesh? Would you think less of the Biblical story because of it, or would you move on?

BTW: The word Elf is English, and derives from the Old Englsh ælf, (pls. elfe, ielfe, and ylfe), ultimately from the Indo-European root albh- which signified "White." It was originally an adjectival form, and its Latin cognate was albus. The form you state derives from Germanic, and hence from Indo-European, via Old Norse.

EDIT - Back to your first post: How is it prophecy to compare the moral shortcomings and excellences of different peoples and their collected stories? confused

Alfheim

Slyððering
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well to be quite honest with you I think it is more complicated than people give it credit. I cant be bothered to get into it. I think its subjective you can see him as a storyteller and you can see him as a prophet if you wanted to.

At least you dont see heros in the LOTR raping and murdering like you do in the Bible.





Obvoulsy



Im confused im not condemning anything.




Yeah I know. There is nothing that is truly orginal.




Thats why I put prophet in "". Obvoulsy hes not a real prophet but just like people like Jesus he told stories to try and teach us morality.

You aren't condemning Tolkien? Well, it seemed so to me, since you've constantly said things like, (paraphrasing), "it's sad if Tolkien based his mythology on Norse mythology," etc.

Trust me, I love Tolkien. I think his stories are an inspiration, not only for their literary value. But I'd never compare them to anything other than other media.

BTW: Sorry if I've gotten on anybody's nerves. Don't take me too seriously. wink

Alfheim

Slyððering

Nellinator
Tolkien was heavily influenced by Norse mythology and based one of his languages on it (which one is escaping me) and many of the side stories are based on Norse myths, especially in the Hobbit from what I can tell. LOTR and the Silmarillion have strong Christian themes and both he and C.S. Lewis tried to tell the story in LOTR and the Chronicles of Narnia respectively.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Nellinator
Tolkien was heavily influenced by Norse mythology and based one of his languages on it (which one is escaping me) and many of the side stories are based on Norse myths, especially in the Hobbit from what I can tell. LOTR and the Silmarillion have strong Christian themes and both he and C.S. Lewis tried to tell the story in LOTR and the Chronicles of Narnia respectively.

There is no more Christian themes in LOTR then what would be in any book written by someone who lives in a Christian country.

AngryManatee
Originally posted by Alfheim
In the LOTR (Lord Of The Rings) Tolkein identified what was wrong with the Viking world and the present world.

There was nothing wrong with the Viking World, other than they kicked so much ass!

RocasAtoll
If you want to make a jump to real life from Tolkien books, then the only real event is WW1.

Nellinator
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
There is no more Christian themes in LOTR then what would be in any book written by someone who lives in a Christian country.
No, Tolkien wrote it with that being one of his purposes. I'd be happy to quote his letter to the editor that proves so.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Nellinator
No, Tolkien wrote it with that being one of his purposes. I'd be happy to quote his letter to the editor that proves so.

I really don't believe that such a letter exists, but I'm sure you will quote something.

Slyððering
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I really don't believe that such a letter exists, but I'm sure you will quote something.

I believe that in the letter which Nellinator is referencing, Tolkien does call LotR "a Christian story." I'll check it out later when I have my copy of Letters available.

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
blink No...it just never itnerested me as much.

Much like damn Harry Potter. But I've seen the movies....last week for the first time embarrasment

It's not a negative descision. His books are overly wordy and antagonistic.

However, Harry Potter really is a kids book. Especially by comparisson.

lord xyz
Originally posted by Alfheim
Anybody who is interested in Norse paganism/ heathenism and who has read anything by Tolkein will now that Tolkein studied the Norse tradition in-depth.

Tolkein studied heathenism so much that he even developed his own language Elvish. As far as I know Tolkein did not create this language from scratch (well its impossble to create anything from scratch, everything has an influence) and is actually based on heathen languages.

Alot of people might think that The Lord of The Rings is just a fun book, but in my opinion it can be just as important as The Bible when teaching moral lessons, in fact it could be argued that it would be even better.

In the LOTR (Lord Of The Rings) Tolkein identified what was wrong with the Viking world and the present world. People are just too greedy everybody wants to be better than everbody else and nobody wants to share. This is the corruption which all creatures had which the ring used to work on. This is why Frodo was such an important character, Frodo didnt care about power all he wanted to do was hang out with his friends. Bare in mind this does not mean that we should all be wasters. Frodo was not a lay about he just did not want to be powerful.

This is an important point, if people were more interested in just being "happy" instead of the accumulation of power the world would be a happier place.

The LOTR is also about racial unity and tolerance. In the LOTR there are different races but they are all important. In the end its because all the races joined togther which enabled the world to be saved. Not only that there are races with different characteristics but they were all special. Despite the fact that Hobbits were small in stature their passion and loyalty helped make a difference.

Another important point if we spent more time looking at peoples hearts instead of their stature and physical appearance this would improve the world also.

So I think Tolkein was a "prophet" in the sense that he studied the religon of the Vikings and he identfied what was wrong with their world and identified what was wrong with this world. Tolkein has created books which teach us great moral teachings for now and forever. Discuss. Nice. I loved the Vikings, and LOTR, but by your logic, everyone's a prophet.

Alfheim
Originally posted by lord xyz
Nice. I loved the Vikings, and LOTR, but by your logic, everyone's a prophet.

Mnnn not really not everbody has written literature that has affected lots of people.

chillmeistergen
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
It's not a negative descision. His books are overly wordy and antagonistic.

However, Harry Potter really is a kids book. Especially by comparisson.

Also, although good, Harry Potter is full of stolen content from absolutely loads of classic literature. For example 'philosophers stone' is taken straight out of Frankenstein.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Alliance

Tolkein also has overarching racism, anti-industrialism and his novels are reactionary. I don't really consider those valuble contributions.

Oh and another thing Alliance, I guess if Tolkein had 20 wives, married a nine year old, killed hundreds of people and forced people to convert to Tolkeinsim you would kill yourself trying to defend him. no expression

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Alfheim
Oh and another thing Alliance, I guess if Tolkein had 20 wives, married a nine year old, killed hundreds of people and forced people to convert to Tolkeinsim you would kill yourself trying to defend him. no expression

I think that if the above had happened, then Alliance would have to kill you. laughing

lord xyz
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I think that if the above had happened, then Alliance would have to kill you. laughing It happened 1500 years ago by a person name M*******. (Must not speak ill of the prophet.)

And it's all true, as certain members here are my witnesses.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Also, although good, Harry Potter is full of stolen content from absolutely loads of classic literature. For example 'philosophers stone' is taken straight out of Frankenstein.

I think you will find the origin is much older than that.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Ushgarak
I think you will find the origin is much older than that. If he'd do research, which he won't.

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