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If the man of steel held one of the greatest energies of the universe what whould be the result? What about his costume design?I mean his "S" and his natural colors would have to fit somewhere.

... He would be a badass.

Didn't we see this idea during that time the Key took over the watch tower?

Superman would be even more amazing

that would be fantastic

Right after the Infinite Crisis, he took a ring from Hal and did be a GL for a bit.

Originally posted by Juntai
Right after the Infinite Crisis, he took a ring from Hal and did be a GL for a bit.

I missed that.......

Issue numbers please so I can catch up. Was that after he lost his powers?

Originally posted by Garfield Cat
I missed that.......

Issue numbers please so I can catch up. Was that after he lost his powers?

it was in the first couple of issues after ic, they're in the 'up, up and away' storyline... he didnt really have it for long though, he was just offered it by hal, and decided against keeping it...

don't know the exact issue numbers though...

Originally posted by pr1983
it was in the first couple of issues after ic, they're in the 'up, up and away' storyline... he didnt really have it for long though, he was just offered it by hal, and decided against keeping it...

don't know the exact issue numbers though...

Thank you I will check it out.

superman strong enough to break into GLs shield ?

Originally posted by The Prophecy
If the man of steel held one of the greatest energies of the universe what whould be the result? What about his costume design?I mean his "S" and his natural colors would have to fit somewhere. he'd have less feats

I wouldn't read him.

Their flagship character is overpowered as it is.

Originally posted by "V"
I wouldn't read him.

Their flagship character is overpowered as it is.

No, his jobber aura is over powered....He, himself, doesn't have that much power to me.

Originally posted by Darth Macabre
No, his jobber aura is over powered....He, himself, doesn't have that much power to me.

Oh right.

Super Strength
Super Senses
Super Speed
Flight
Heat Vision
Ice Breath
X ray vision
Telescopic Vision

Off the top of my head, and he doesnt have that much power? Laughable, any one of those powers would make for a reasonably powerful character. Several characters only have one of them, whereas he has shedloads.

I don't mind though, as long as it's well written I dont really care to be honest. Except of course if he had a GL ring that'd take the piss, Hal Jordan's one of the most powerful dudes on the planet and he's human. Imagine Superman with one, that'd be a pisstake.

Originally posted by "V"
Oh right.

Super Strength
Super Senses
Super Speed
Flight
Heat Vision
Ice Breath
X ray vision
Telescopic Vision

Off the top of my head, and he doesnt have that much power? Laughable, any one of those powers would make for a reasonably powerful character. Several characters only have one of them, whereas he has shedloads.

I don't mind though, as long as it's well written I dont really care to be honest. Except of course if he had a GL ring that'd take the piss, Hal Jordan's one of the most powerful dudes on the planet and he's human. Imagine Superman with one, that'd be a pisstake.

xray vision and telescopic vision would be under the 'super senses' heading...

and the list of characters who'd kick the living shit out of him goes on and on... so he can't be as overpowered as some people seem to believe...

Originally posted by pr1983


and the list of characters who'd kick the living shit out of him goes on and on...

At least according to people that don't read much Superman.

Originally posted by pr1983
xray vision and telescopic vision would be under the 'super senses' heading...

and the amount of characters who'd kick the living shit out of him goes on and on... so he can't be as overpowered as some people seem to believe...

Just because he gets his arse handed to him everytime DC needs him to look better (ie him coming back and owning them or w.e) doesn't mean he's overpowered. He always manages to defeat oponnents that the entire JLA don't manage to. I just find it silly, he is VERY overpowered IMO.

Originally posted by Garfield Cat
At least according to people that don't read much Superman.

lol, i'd be the first person to defend superman against the characters that are more powerful than he is, but as much as i like the guy (and i do), even i'll admit the guy isn't invincible...

Originally posted by "V"
Just because he gets his arse handed to him everytime DC needs him to look better (ie him coming back and owning them or w.e) doesn't mean he's overpowered. He always manages to defeat oponnents that the entire JLA don't manage to. I just find it silly, he is VERY overpowered IMO.

the jla as a team, are, well, shit... most of the enemies they fight as a group could be better dealt with by individual members of the team...

and superman has been given hard fights (some that he barely won, so i hardly count that as owning) plenty of times even in the last couple of years...

Originally posted by pr1983
lol, i'd be the first person to defend superman against the characters that are more powerful than he is, but as much as i like the guy (and i do), even i'll admit the guy isn't invincible...

He isn't invincible, but he's not beaten very often and Like Kyle says in the crossover with the Silver Surfer when Terrax shows up. I hope that's Superman.

Originally posted by "V"
Just because he gets his arse handed to him everytime DC needs him to look better (ie him coming back and owning them or w.e) doesn't mean he's overpowered. He always manages to defeat oponnents that the entire JLA don't manage to. I just find it silly, he is VERY overpowered IMO.

Like I said...that's his jobber aura, not his powerset. With people who can control energy, matter, or flippin' reality, I don't think Superman is all that powerful. His powerset is generic (these days).

Originally posted by Garfield Cat
He isn't invincible, but he's not beaten very often and Like Kyle says in the crossover with the Silver Surfer when Terrax shows up. I hope that's Superman.

so would i... superman is awesome, he truly is... the sheer amount of superman sigs i've sported since i arrived on kmc, and the fact that me and rewmac had superman as our first pick in the debating tournament we just recently took part in should if nothing else show how much of a fan i am...

Originally posted by pr1983
so would i... superman is awesome, he truly is... the sheer amount of superman sigs i've sported since i arrived on kmc, and the fact that me and rewmac had superman as our first pick in the debating tournament we just recently took part in should if nothing else show how much of a fan i am...

I believe you, but this forum doesn't seem to have many people that read Superman. Certainly not in the long haul. It seems very Marvel biased and anti Superman.

Originally posted by Garfield Cat
I believe you, but this forum doesn't seem to have many people that read Superman. Certainly not in the long haul. It seems very Marvel biased and anti Superman.

All general comics forums are Marvel biased, because the comic business is dominated by Marvel easily, they got about 10% more of the market. Have done for a good while.

Anti superman? Bleh, I reckon people are just fed up of him being perfect.

Originally posted by Darth Macabre
Like I said...that's his jobber aura, not his powerset. With people who can control energy, matter, or flippin' reality, I don't think Superman is all that powerful. His powerset is generic (these days).

i think his jobber aura is incredibly overstated at times... i think he doesnt get the credit he deserves alot of the time...

Originally posted by Garfield Cat
I believe you, but this forum doesn't seem to have many people that read Superman. Certainly not in the long haul. It seems very Marvel biased and anti Superman.

oh, it is... i couldn't agree more... it annoys me, the kind of comments that people come out with sometimes that are usually incredibly uninformed and just plain ignorant...

Originally posted by pr1983
i think his jobber aura is incredibly overstated at times... i think he doesnt get the credit he deserves alot of the time...



oh, it is... i couldn't agree more... it annoys me, the kind of comments that people come out with sometimes that are usually incredibly uninformed and just plain ignorant...

I agree with both your points.

Originally posted by "V"
All general comics forums are Marvel biased, because the comic business is dominated by Marvel easily, they got about 10% more of the market. Have done for a good while.

Anti superman? Bleh, I reckon people are just fed up of him being perfect.

dc hangs with marvel pretty well as far as i've seen... and if marvel makes more money, its most likely due to the fact that its incredibly commercial, moreso than dc is...

and superman is far from perfect...

Originally posted by Garfield Cat
I agree with both your points.

good...

Originally posted by "V"
All general comics forums are Marvel biased, because the comic business is dominated by Marvel easily, they got about 10% more of the market. Have done for a good while.

Anti superman? Bleh, I reckon people are just fed up of him being perfect.

As PR says he is far from perfect, he's even killed.

Originally posted by Garfield Cat
As PR says he is far from perfect, he's even killed.

Never meant like that. I meant unflawed, uber boy scoutish. It bores me to be honest. I don't have anything against the character, I'm just rather disinterested.

http://www.newsarama.com/marketreport/jan07sales.html


(First is money, second is percentage of the market)
MARVEL COMICS 39.78% 44.79%
DC COMICS 31.26% 34.18%

1 1 357.61 CIVIL WAR #6 (Of 7)* $2.99 MAR
2 4 173.40 CIVIL WAR RETURN* $2.99 MAR
3 2 159.48 WOLVERINE #50* $3.99 MAR
4 5 158.35 AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #537 CW $2.99 MAR
5 3 149.08 ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN #104* $3.99 MAR
6 10 144.96 52 WEEK #35 $2.50 DC
7 6 137.65 CIVIL WAR FRONT LINE #10 (Of 11) $2.99 MAR
8 7 136.28 ALL STAR SUPERMAN #6 $2.99 DC
9 8 135.01 WOLVERINE ORIGINS #10* $2.99 MAR
10 16 133.54 52 WEEK #36 $2.50 DC

All of the top five sellers are Marvel comics, seven out of the top ten are marvel.

I think that explains the bias, Marvel just sell more comics, the more they sell the more fans they have. simple.

Originally posted by "V"
Never meant like that. I meant unflawed, uber boy scoutish. It bores me to be honest. I don't have anything against the character, I'm just rather disinterested.

http://www.newsarama.com/marketreport/jan07sales.html


(First is money, second is percentage of the market)
MARVEL COMICS 39.78% 44.79%
DC COMICS 31.26% 34.18%

1 1 357.61 CIVIL WAR #6 (Of 7)* $2.99 MAR
2 4 173.40 CIVIL WAR RETURN* $2.99 MAR
3 2 159.48 WOLVERINE #50* $3.99 MAR
4 5 158.35 AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #537 CW $2.99 MAR
5 3 149.08 ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN #104* $3.99 MAR
6 10 144.96 52 WEEK #35 $2.50 DC
7 6 137.65 CIVIL WAR FRONT LINE #10 (Of 11) $2.99 MAR
8 7 136.28 ALL STAR SUPERMAN #6 $2.99 DC
9 8 135.01 WOLVERINE ORIGINS #10* $2.99 MAR
10 16 133.54 52 WEEK #36 $2.50 DC

All of the top five sellers are Marvel comics, seven out of the top ten are marvel.

I think that explains the bias, Marvel just sell more comics, the more they sell the more fans they have. simple.

Top two are events though and boun to sell very highly that's interesting 52 is weekly yet for the whole month only number 35 is mentioned. Why?

Originally posted by "V"
Never meant like that. I meant unflawed, uber boy scoutish. It bores me to be honest. I don't have anything against the character, I'm just rather disinterested.

given his powers, he feels a responsibility to exercise complete control... i don't see that as a negative... it doesnt mean he's not flawed, or a boy scout... doing the right thing and being careful means he's a boy scout?



amazing how many of those are civil war comics... dc had a decent sales surge during IC, once civil war is over, what then?

and there's the whole wolverine thing... at its worst, dc has never gone to the depths marvel has in whoring out a character...

Originally posted by Garfield Cat
Top two are events though and boun to sell very highly that's interesting 52 is weekly yet for the whole month only number 35 is mentioned. Why?

Because it was outsold pretty badly, DC kinda got raped this month to be honest, it's not THIS bad normally. I think 10-20 is split 5/5 though, probably 52 in the top twenty.

It just shows you though, 52 is getting quite battered this month but it's just because Civil war is reaching its peak. Marvel won't have so many in the top ten after presumably.

Originally posted by pr1983
given his powers, he feels a responsibility to exercise complete control... i don't see that as a negative... it doesnt mean he's not flawed, or a boy scout... doing the right thing and being careful means he's a boy scout?



amazing how many of those are civil war comics... dc had a decent sales surge during IC, once civil war is over, what then?

and there's the whole wolverine thing... at its worst, dc has never gone to the depths marvel has in whoring out a character...

Again, I agree with you totally.

Originally posted by pr1983
given his powers, he feels a responsibility to exercise complete control... i don't see that as a negative... it doesnt mean he's not flawed, or a boy scout... doing the right thing and being careful means he's a boy scout?



amazing how many of those are civil war comics... dc had a decent sales surge during IC, once civil war is over, what then?

and there's the whole wolverine thing... at its worst, dc has never gone to the depths marvel has in whoring out a character...

No, I just think he's a boyscout. Get over it, it's not a bad thing I just don't find it interesting to be honest.

You act like DC doesn't have it's own event getting sold at the moment, so don't try and act like the only reason marvel is winning is because of their event. Seeing as both companies are having one at the moment.

Once 52 is over what then?

I'm coming off very Marvel biased here, I'm not though, I'm just saying it as I see it.

Batman and Superman are arguably just as whored out argueably.

Originally posted by "V"
No, I just think he's a boyscout. Get over it, it's not a bad thing I just don't find it interesting to be honest.

You act like DC doesn't have it's own event getting sold at the moment, so don't try and act like the only reason marvel is winning is because of their event. Seeing as both companies are having one at the moment.

Once 52 is over what then?

I'm coming off very Marvel biased here, I'm not though, I'm just saying it as I see it.

Batman and Superman are arguably just as whored out argueably.

You do appear just another Marvel fanboy like so many on this site.

Originally posted by "V"
No, I just think he's a boyscout. Get over it, it's not a bad thing I just don't find it interesting to be honest.

You act like DC doesn't have it's own event getting sold at the moment, so don't try and act like the only reason marvel is winning is because of their event. Seeing as both companies are having one at the moment.

Once 52 is over what then?

I'm coming off very Marvel biased here, I'm not though, I'm just saying it as I see it.

Batman and Superman are arguably just as whored out argueably.

But you equated being unflawed to being a boyscout... i'm just curious as to why is all...

52 isn't as big an event as civil war is, i don't think even DC would assume it was... so yes, the reason marvel have such a huge majority is because of their big event... DC's was IC, 52 is a novel idea, but its not a big event is it?

i thought World War 3 was the next DC event...

And while bats and supes do appear alot, i don't see them as being anywhere near as badly exploited as Wolverine is...

Originally posted by Garfield Cat
You do appear just another Marvel fanboy like so many on this site.

Do I really? that's funny, a good percentage of the books I read are DC. Either way I don't really mind, there isn't anybody on this comic forum you couldn't classify as either DC or Marvel. Everyone has a preference.

Originally posted by "V"
Do I really? that's funny, a good percentage of the books I read are DC. Either way I don't really mind, there isn't anybody on this comic forum you couldn't classify as either DC or Marvel. Everyone has a preference.

I don't know the forum well enough to say. I read al sorts and not just Marvel and DC. I just read the Darkness Omnibus. Not that great.

I think it's the energy manipulators and mages that are overpowered. Your surfers, GLs, Etrigans, and Dr. Stranges can pretty much do whatever they want.

Originally posted by pr1983
But you equated being unflawed to being a boyscout... i'm just curious as to why is all...

52 isn't as big an event as civil war is, i don't think even DC would assume it was... so yes, the reason marvel have such a huge majority is because of their big event... DC's was IC, 52 is a novel idea, but its not a big event is it?

World War 3 is the next DC big event isn't it?

And while bats and supes do appear alot, i don't see them as being anywhere near as badly exploited as Wolverine is...

No, I said he was boyscoutish and unflawed I never meant to link the two.

52 isn't as big an event as Civil War? How many civil war books/tie ins have their been? I'm not sure. But seeing as 3 out of the 7 top Marvel titles were Civil War I don't see how it's too reliant.

Wolverine, AMS and USM would still have outsold 52. That just shows you it's not THAT reliant upon it, 52 is an event the last time I checked just because it's weekly doesnt mean it isnt.

WW3 is yeah, I'm actually looking forward to that, Ostranger is on board for a suicide squad mini right? Sigh me up for that.

I agree, they aren't whored out AS badly. But DC isn't innocent of whoring out their characters either. Only point i'm making.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
I think it's the energy manipulators and mages that are overpowered. Your surfers, GLs, Etrigans, and Dr. Stranges can pretty much do whatever they want.

I think this is very true. Although Tvo evens things up for Superman.

Got to say the "marvelness" of this forum bores me. Anyway nice meeting you all. We had a day didn't we.

BTW, can anyone tell me why JLA only got 66th out of the top 100? Is it really selling that badly? Wow

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
I think it's the energy manipulators and mages that are overpowered. Your surfers, GLs, Etrigans, and Dr. Stranges can pretty much do whatever they want.

true...

Originally posted by "V"
No, I said he was boyscoutish and unflawed I never meant to link the two.

My bad...



This is the civil war checklist for january alone (though i dont know if all the titles were released)

CIVIL WAR #7
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #537
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #538
BLACK PANTHER #24
BLADE #5 (Casualties of War)
CIVIL WAR FRONT LINE #10
FANTASTIC FOUR #542
FANTASTIC FOUR #543
MOON KNIGHT #10 (Casualties of War)
PUNISHER: WAR JOURNAL #3

52 is like, one comic... and i still wouldnt consider it to be as big in dc's eyes as civil war is in marvel's...



i wouldnt look at 52 as being an event in the mould of civil war or IC, its a novel idea, and its only running for 52 issues, but i see it as more as a leadin to whatevers to come...

its not 52 that i would rate as being a big dc seller... its the jsa, jla, superman and batman books that to me would be their biggest titles...



is luthor starting up the new squad?



I know, and i agree...

Originally posted by "V"
BTW, can anyone tell me why JLA only got 66th out of the top 100? Is it really selling that badly? Wow

its a relatively new series, i think it needs a little time to build its readership, but i see some pretty good potential there...

Fair enough, agree to disagree.

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=97594

That's the newsarama thread about it, Haven't actually read the article yet. But I'm definetly picking it up to be honest, original suicide squad was awesome, this should be just as good. I hope.

Originally posted by pr1983

its a relatively new series, i think it needs a little time to build its readership, but i see some pretty good potential there...

Dude, it's JLA.. You'd expect it to sell loads just because it has the name on it. Just like most books with Civil War slapped on the title, JLA is DC's premier team book, you'd think it'd be in the top ten sales wise.

I don't care too much though, JSA pwns ass.

Originally posted by "V"
Fair enough, agree to disagree.

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=97594

That's the newsarama thread about it, Haven't actually read the article yet. But I'm definetly picking it up to be honest, original suicide squad was awesome, this should be just as good. I hope.

we did go way off topic didn't we...

looks good... there seems to be high expectations for ostrander's return...

Originally posted by "V"
Dude, it's JLA.. You'd expect it to sell loads just because it has the name on it. Just like most books with Civil War slapped on the title, JLA is DC's premier team book, you'd think it'd be in the top ten sales wise.

I don't care too much though, JSA pwns ass.

its a new line up, i think it'll be a month or two before it starts hitting the top ten, but i fully expect it to do well...

jsa is very, very good... have to say i prefer jla though...

This already happened in a story called The last son of earth where Johnathan Kent genius scientist shoots a space ship into space with Clark Kent infant inside sending him to krypton where he spent most of his life contained in a harness so his body would not be crushed in Kryptons Gravity suddenly he found a GL ring from Aben Sur stopped Krypton from exploding and blah blah good story from what I heard wish I could have seen the whole thing.

You know, there is one general consensus that alot of people agree on: Marvel has shit writing. I'm serious, I've never liked Marvel's writing. It's always so full of itself.

DC may be getting outsold by Marvel, but 1. they have the mythos of some of the greatest comic book characters of all time and 2. their writing is usually alot better than Marvel's. Case in point: Civil War, as compared to IC.

I just KNOW I'm going to get flamed and nuked for this, but it needs to be said.

CIVIL WAR IS THE WORST COMIC IDEA IN DECADES. This is the worst event Marvel has come up with since Decimation. It's not even the concept behind Civil War, we all knew that was going to done eventually. IT'S THE TYING IT TO REAL LIFE POLITICS. blowup

I can't stand this idea of tying in comic books to the screwy politics of this country. Comic books are supposed to a refuge from this crap. And they're certainly not supposed to be this badly done. Or what about the crapfest that was 'Onslaught Reborn' ? Damn it, I liked Onslaught. Loeb has ruined him.

I just realized, I'm much more of a DC fan than a marvel fan. Oh well. It's not that I hate Marvel, I like it. I just know they could have done a lot better. Like Annihilation. God damn it, Thanos died. THANOS. He's probably the best character in the cosmic class, and they killed him. That's ballsy. That's good writing. Hell, Annihilus nuked Quasar. Nobody saw that one coming.



Not like Civil War. Spidey coming out as pro-reg, IM turning into a war profiteer and right wing nut, Cap turning on the US govt. , (Actually, that's one of the few things I liked. It shows Cap's spectacular character and idealism.), Zemo disappearing, the complete whoring out of the new powerhouse 'The Sentry', Clor, and Deadpool getting a conscience chair. For that last one, someone's head needs to roll.


So, all in all, I'm pretty much boycotting most of Marvel until this Civil War shit ends.


And yeah, IC was awesome. And JLA still rocks.



Shit, I just went on a rant. Sorry about that. shy Back to the original topic. I looked it up, way back in JLA 8&9, before IC, the Key took over the watchtower. And one of his dream scenarios was Supes acting as a green lantern corp member on a krypton that never exploded.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
You know, there is one general consensus that alot of people agree on: Marvel has shit writing. I'm serious, I've never liked Marvel's writing. It's always so full of itself.

DC may be getting outsold by Marvel, but 1. they have the mythos of some of the greatest comic book characters of all time and 2. their writing is usually alot better than Marvel's. Case in point: Civil War, as compared to IC.

I just KNOW I'm going to get flamed and nuked for this, but it needs to be said.

CIVIL WAR IS THE WORST COMIC IDEA IN DECADES. This is the worst event Marvel has come up with since Decimation. It's not even the concept behind Civil War, we all knew that was going to done eventually. IT'S THE TYING IT TO REAL LIFE POLITICS. blowup

I can't stand this idea of tying in comic books to the screwy politics of this country. Comic books are supposed to a refuge from this crap. And they're certainly not supposed to be this badly done. Or what about the crapfest that was 'Onslaught Reborn' ? Damn it, I liked Onslaught. Loeb has ruined him.

I just realized, I'm much more of a DC fan than a marvel fan. Oh well. It's not that I hate Marvel, I like it. I just know they could have done a lot better. Like Annihilation. God damn it, Thanos died. THANOS. He's probably the best character in the cosmic class, and they killed him. That's ballsy. That's good writing. Hell, Annihilus nuked Quasar. Nobody saw that one coming.



Not like Civil War. Spidey coming out as pro-reg, IM turning into a war profiteer and right wing nut, Cap turning on the US govt. , (Actually, that's one of the few things I liked. It shows Cap's spectacular character and idealism.), Zemo disappearing, the complete whoring out of the new powerhouse 'The Sentry', Clor, and Deadpool getting a conscience chair. For that last one, someone's head needs to roll.


So, all in all, I'm pretty much boycotting most of Marvel until this Civil War shit ends.


And yeah, IC was awesome. And JLA still rocks.



Shit, I just went on a rant. Sorry about that. shy Back to the original topic. I looked it up, way back in JLA 8&9, before IC, the Key took over the watchtower. And one of his dream scenarios was Supes acting as a green lantern corp member on a krypton that never exploded.

Worst. Bloody. Rant. Ever.

Kiss my ass "v" . You know I'm right.

Originally posted by "V"
Worst. Bloody. Rant. Ever.

really? it might have been a little overzealous, but i thought there were some genuinely worthwhile points...

civil war trying to be too political, i agree with that...

the problem that quality writing (and art too imo) is more the minority in marvel, whereas DC in alot of cases tends to have some pretty good writing in alot of its books...

those parts, i agree with...

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Kiss my ass "v" . You know I'm right.

No. You are wrong on several points:

1)Civil War is not the worst event in decades.
2)It is not general consensus that marvel has shit writing
3)Politics does not always ruin comics, it adds a level of realism
4)Onslaught has always sucked, Onslaught reborn just added to it
5)JLA doesn't rock, how badly it's selling just proves that
6)Infinite Crisis wasn't even better than Civil War let alone Annihilation

And you boycotting Marvel at the end of Civil War until the end of Civil War is stupid, it's finishing very soon. If you felt this way you would of done it when Civil War was in it's early stages.

Jonn pwns Apoc

Originally posted by pr1983
really? it might have been a little overzealous, but i thought there were some genuinely worthwhile points...

civil war trying to be too political, i agree with that...

the problem that quality writing (and art too imo) is more the minority in marvel, whereas DC in alot of cases tends to have some pretty good writing in alot of its books...

those parts, i agree with...

Civil War is about politics, it couldn't be Civil War without the politics behind it. But yes Millar is pushing his views onto the event, I'm sure of that. They could tone it down a bit.

Writing and Art? You can never generalise a thing like that, there are way too many books. But every company has good and bad artists/writers, you can't really help it to be honest.

Originally posted by "V"
Civil War is about politics, it couldn't be Civil War without the politics behind it. But yes Millar is pushing his views onto the event, I'm sure of that. They could tone it down a bit.

Writing and Art? You can never generalise a thing like that, there are way too many books. But every company has good and bad artists/writers, you can't really help it to be honest.

its the wrong politics though... it tries to (as others have said) turn it into some civil liberties issue, when it most clearly isnt...

and civil war, imo, is more about the spectacle than anything else... i dont think the writing is anything special to be honest...

i look at the bigger books (x-men, spiderman, avengers), and i think that given that they are meant to be the flagship books, so to speak, the art and writing in alot of them should be much, much better... there are only a few exceptions imo...

Originally posted by pr1983
its the wrong politics though... it tries to (as others have said) turn it into some civil liberties issue, when it most clearly isnt...

and civil war, imo, is more about the spectacle than anything else... i dont think the writing is anything special to be honest...

i look at the bigger books (x-men, spiderman, avengers), and i think that given that they are meant to be the flagship books, so to speak, the art and writing in alot of them should be much, much better... there are only a few exceptions imo...

Flagships? forget about that, because this year Marvel hasn't been too good on that admitedly.

But on their lesser titles? Immortal Iron Fist, Captain America, Daredevil, Runaways, Annihilation, Iron Man, Moon Knight, Iredeemable Ant Man, Punisher: War Journal, X Factor, Spiderman Loves Mary Jane etc. they all have great art and writing. That's without mentioning a huge amount of limited series that are pretty awesome aswell.

But it shows, amount sold always isn't quality. I'm not saying Marvel overall quality is higher, I just think DC's flagships are better but Marvel's lesser titles are better.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
You know, there is one general consensus that alot of people agree on: Marvel has shit writing. I'm serious, I've never liked Marvel's writing. It's always so full of itself.

DC may be getting outsold by Marvel, but 1. they have the mythos of some of the greatest comic book characters of all time and 2. their writing is usually alot better than Marvel's. Case in point: Civil War, as compared to IC.

I just KNOW I'm going to get flamed and nuked for this, but it needs to be said.

CIVIL WAR IS THE WORST COMIC IDEA IN DECADES. This is the worst event Marvel has come up with since Decimation. It's not even the concept behind Civil War, we all knew that was going to done eventually. IT'S THE TYING IT TO REAL LIFE POLITICS. blowup

I can't stand this idea of tying in comic books to the screwy politics of this country. Comic books are supposed to a refuge from this crap. And they're certainly not supposed to be this badly done. Or what about the crapfest that was 'Onslaught Reborn' ? Damn it, I liked Onslaught. Loeb has ruined him.

I just realized, I'm much more of a DC fan than a marvel fan. Oh well. It's not that I hate Marvel, I like it. I just know they could have done a lot better. Like Annihilation. God damn it, Thanos died. THANOS. He's probably the best character in the cosmic class, and they killed him. That's ballsy. That's good writing. Hell, Annihilus nuked Quasar. Nobody saw that one coming.



Not like Civil War. Spidey coming out as pro-reg, IM turning into a war profiteer and right wing nut, Cap turning on the US govt. , (Actually, that's one of the few things I liked. It shows Cap's spectacular character and idealism.), Zemo disappearing, the complete whoring out of the new powerhouse 'The Sentry', Clor, and Deadpool getting a conscience chair. For that last one, someone's head needs to roll.


So, all in all, I'm pretty much boycotting most of Marvel until this Civil War shit ends.


And yeah, IC was awesome. And JLA still rocks.



Shit, I just went on a rant. Sorry about that. shy Back to the original topic. I looked it up, way back in JLA 8&9, before IC, the Key took over the watchtower. And one of his dream scenarios was Supes acting as a green lantern corp member on a krypton that never exploded.

Well, Civil War was a good idea it was just badly executed and in the case of the main comic, pretty badly written, in theory it made a great story, if they had portrayed both sides equaly it would have been a lot more compelling.

Instead they made the Pro Reg side and Iron Man look like ***holes Annihilation was much better imo.

Otherwise you make some good points, all be it in the form of a huge rant.

EDIT: Incidently this isn't the first time Cap has gone against the goverment, he is a symbol of the people not a goverment lackey and always has been.

Originally posted by "V"
No. You are wrong on several points:

1)Civil War is not the worst event in decades.
2)It is not general consensus that marvel has shit writing
3)Politics does not always ruin comics, it adds a level of realism
4)Onslaught has always sucked, Onslaught reborn just added to it
5)JLA doesn't rock, how badly it's selling just proves that
6)Infinite Crisis wasn't even better than Civil War let alone Annihilation

1. I agree...
2. I think the consensus is more that in general, DC is better all round...
3. If done properly, which it hasnt in parts of civil war imo...
4. I thought he was an ok bad guy, just wasnt implemented properly...
5. High or low sales dont always indicate quality...
6. I'm gonna disagree... IC was pretty good imo, it just needed... more... just more in general...

Originally posted by "V"
Flagships? forget about that, because this year Marvel hasn't been too good on that admitedly.

but when was the last time that they were?



everything before punisher, good stuff, i agree... have to say i hated the art of punisher, but im not a huge fan either, so i dont know about the wrting... x-factor from what i saw was good, but spiderman loves mary jane? honestly?

daredevil was good writing (although bendis can really get on my nerves sometimes), but some of the art during decalogue was shocking imo...



marvel has some quality so called lesser titles, but thats the difference between them and DC imo... DC puts its best guys on its biggest books, for some insane reason marvel doesn't (bar a couple of titles), and thats always annoyed the hell out of me...

Originally posted by pr1983

but when was the last time that they were?



everything before punisher, good stuff, i agree... have to say i hated the art of punisher, but im not a huge fan either, so i dont know about the wrting... x-factor from what i saw was good, but spiderman loves mary jane? honestly?

daredevil was good writing (although bendis can really get on my nerves sometimes), but some of the art during decalogue was shocking imo...



marvel has some quality so called lesser titles, but thats the difference between them and DC imo... DC puts its best guys on its biggest books, for some insane reason marvel doesn't (bar a couple of titles), and thats always annoyed the hell out of me...

Hey, spiderman loves mary jane is a diamond in the rough, I thought it'd suck dude. It's about superhero love, I was suprised when I accidently bought it.

And X Factor is the best X title out there easily, don't be mistaken. Daredevil is pretty awesome, it's coming off one of the best runs in comic history (or atleast most talked about) and is still going strong under brubaker. Meh, Lark's no Maleev but he's still pretty good.

1. I agree...

2. I think the consensus is more that in general, DC is better all round...
Where does this consenus come from? I think it comes down to personal preference, but
3. If done properly, which it hasnt in parts of civil war imo...
In parts, but in other parts the politics has been good. Like in frontline, some of it is utter bollocks (that woman pwning cap and walking out on his speech) and then other bits are good, ie her getting owned by that politician.
4. I thought he was an ok bad guy, just wasnt implemented properly...
He was a good idea, it doesnt change the fact that the story sucked horribly. He always has, had awesome potential though.
5. High or low sales dont always indicate quality...
Doesn't change the fact that it's the flagship team book of the entire DCU, I have read a few of the issues, was pretty "meh" to be honest. JSA any day.
6. I'm gonna disagree... IC was pretty good imo, it just needed... more... just more in general...
IC managed to screw itself over in the last few issues, that's why it is remembered pretty badly. Civil war screwed itself up around the middle and it's been steadily getting better.

Really and truly it all comes down to personal preference in the end.

Originally posted by "V"
Hey, spiderman loves mary jane is a diamond in the rough, I thought it'd suck dude. It's about superhero love, I was suprised when I accidently bought it.

how do you accidentally buy something?



its good, but for me astonishing x-men is top dog...



brubaker is on dd now? its been a year or so since i read any dd, so i wouldnt know...



just from what i've seen online, in parts of this forum and in comic shops... i might be wrong, and its not as if marvel is shit, they have some great writing on some of their books...



i dunno... i honestly believe the less political civil war tries to be (especially in the vein marvel have it atm), the better it'd be...



I'm one of the few people who actually liked the onslaught saga, but more because of the spectacle (and some, imo, great art by kubert) than anything else...



The only problem i had with it was that it was maybe a bit slow, but the last couple of issues have come along nicely imo, and i'm looking forward to seeing the league take on grundy and amazo...

if anything, i'd say its the new line-up more than anything that would end up hurting it...



definately... if everyone agreed things would be very, very boring...

Well you see I went to the local comic store and picked up all of the books I wanted and accidently picked it up, there was a huge queue and when the check out dude went through all of them I saw it there, I was quite embaressed actually. just because it's quite the girly book (seemingly so, it's about a teenage girl), but I couldnt be bothered to take it back and queue again, it was only a few quid so I just bought it.

Was suprisingly good, hooked since then.

Originally posted by "V"
Well you see I went to the local comic store and picked up all of the books I wanted and accidently picked it up, there was a huge queue and when the check out dude went through all of them I saw it there, I was quite embaressed actually. just because it's quite the girly book (seemingly so, it's about a teenage girl), but I couldnt be bothered to take it back and queue again, it was only a few quid so I just bought it.

Was suprisingly good, hooked since then.

ah, thats understandable... the long queing i mean, not the fact that you continue to buy it...

Originally posted by pr1983
ah, thats understandable... the long queing i mean, not the fact that you continue to buy it...

Shut up

Would you believe it happens every week?

Originally posted by "V"
Shut up

Would you believe it happens every week?

lol, ok, i'll believe it... but i hope you're balancing it out with some really manly comics...

JLA as in Justice League of America as in the highest selling comic(s) of Dec. & Aug. 06? And second only to Civil War in the months between?

1 Justice League of America 4 136,700
2 Justice League of America 5 132,500

Or are we referring to JLA Classified or something?

no, actual jla...

two of them were out in december though... that wouldnt have hurt either...

i'd look, but with dialup those sites can take an eternity to load...

Originally posted by pr1983
no, actual jla...

two of them were out in december though... that wouldnt have hurt either...

i'd look, but with dialup those sites can take an eternity to load... X is so kind. 313

Rank // Title // Issue No. // Est. Sales

Aug.
1. Justice League of America #1 212,200
Sept.
2. Justice League of America #2 143,400
Nov.
2. Justice League of America #3 140,900

How did JLA #5 plummet to 66 then? wow

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
X is so kind. 313

Rank // Title // Issue No. // Est. Sales

Aug.
1. Justice League of America #1 212,200
Sept.
2. Justice League of America #2 143,400
Nov.
2. Justice League of America #3 140,900

yes, you are...

most of the time...



those are some good figures... its doing alright isnt it? they even did second runs of the first few iirc...

wait... jla #5 came out in december... didnt it? a couple of days after christmas...

Originally posted by "V"
How did JLA #5 plummet to 66 then? wow
It didn't plummet at #5.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Rank // Title // Issue No. // Est. Sales

Dec.
1. Justice League of America #4 136,700
2. Justice League of America #5 132,500
I'd presume you're looking at Jan. 07 sales figures for JLA #5.

yeah, jla came out a couple of days after christmas, i remember buying it then... december sales would have to be taken into account...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
It didn't plummet at #5.

I'd presume you're looking at Jan. 07 sales figures for JLA #5.

There we go, that makes more sense

For those who like JLA:

http://groups.msn.com/ultimatespidermanonlinecomic/jla.msnw

Enjoy. They also have JSA and alot of other things.

Originally posted by "V"
I wouldn't read him.

Their flagship character is overpowered as it is. You hit the nail on the head. Superman would also suck more than he already does.

Originally posted by Garfield Cat
I think this is very true. Although Tvo evens things up for Superman.
At least in the case of the magic users, they usually have a ton of experience in the astral plane anyway.

Does Superman use T-vo anymore?

If Superman was the green lantern...we would have to deal with a more piss filled character than usual.

On other points, I wouldn't really call Marvel nearly as commercialized as DC, walk around a regular store, tell me what you see more of...Batman and Superman or Spider-Man and Wolverine. I can't walk anywhere these days without seeing a Superman symbol somewhere.

Dc does better with their more top teirs I think, because well thats what they have always done, but as far as the lower street leveler category, Marvel has them in strides and like it or not, the street leveler area category is what sells the most. Its the Daredevil, Iron Fist, Moon Knight, Cap, Wolverine, etc that make the money for marvel.

Green Lantern would still lose a whole lot.