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Since Luke defeated Darth Vader he takes this one

ROTS Anakin pummels Luke.

Lets see...
Luke:
- Is half trained with but 4 years of training, most of that time he was without a mentor
- Rescued Leia from Black Sun HQ with the aid of Lando, Dash and Chewbacca.
- Defeated Guri in unarmed combat (pretty impressive, actually)
- Defeated all of Jabba's goons (minis Boba Fett, who Han took care of)
- Defeated Darth Vader when using his rage and when Vader wasn't trying to hurt Luke.

Pretty impressive...

Anakin:
- Survived the Battle of Geonosis as a Padawan
- Only surviver (besides Kenobi) or the Battle of Jabiim
- Defeated Asajj Ventress twice
- Killed Durge
- Killed Trinoxx
- Killed Saato
- Fought Karoc and Vinoc at the same time and kileld them both
- Defeated a Clone of Count Dooku
- Survived the Clone Wars
- Was the hero of the Clone Wars
- Killed Count Dooku

I'd say Anakin takes this in in a nutshell.

Anakin wins easily.

No luke wins

Yeah right, Anakin ass rapes him.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Yeah right, Anakin ass rapes him. why would anakin wanna ass fcuk his own son?

Lukes booty reminds him of Padmes...

Hah lol

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Lukes booty reminds him of Padmes...

Seriously though, Anakin WTFpwns Luke into a pulp of Luke mush on the ground, then makes a Luke burger and feeds it to the rancor.

If Obi-Wan can beat Anakin that means Luke can

No, it doesn't.

Guys, give Luke come credit, he was very good by the time of ROTJ.

Legacy of the Force Luke.

If you were trying to be witty, that made no sense, seeing as how I put a time frame.

Luke beat Vader, and that counts for a lot.
He also, for a short period of time, deflected Palpatines lightning without his saber (This is in both the novelization and the comic, and, despite us not seeing it on screen, it could have happened off screen, or, when Luke is behind a large metal object, and we just see Palpatine zapping at him and lightning flying in all directions).
He was able to easily subdue a pair of Jabbas guards and continue to walk casually.
He had Boba Fett beat.
We see impressive stuns such as Luke jumping, kicking a swoop rider off his bike, landing on the bike, all while deflecting fire behind his back in SOTE.
Luke shouldn't be underestimated, seeing as how Sidious saw him as an imminent and not simply potential threat.
Luke had some crazy speed training from Yoda to take down Vader, and, he became very powerful, in a shorter time than would seem imaginable.

Yeah! But Anakin was just as talented if not more, and only lost to a prime Obi Wan. By 23 Anakin was probably as powerful as Luke by the end of vision of the future .

Yes, when he was using Force Rage and Vader wasn't trying to harm Luke. Point is, defeating Dooku when Dooku's trying his hardest is a lot more impressive.

Sorry, didn't happen in the movie, doesn't count. When the movie contradicts the script and/or the novel the movie wins. And no, it couldn't have happened off screen, we saw the entire lightning attack in the movie. It clearly didn't happen in the movie.

He was a threat because he could join Vader and together they'd destroy Sidious. Luke's a LOT more likely to join Vader, his dad, than Sidious.


Which speaks of his potential, not his strength in ROTJ.

This is ROTS ANAKIN. WTF are you talking about. This is anakin at his peak, at his anger peak.
Lemme see... Luke had a hard time beating Anakin without 4 limbs and crippled.

ROTS Anakin? Almost beat the crap out of Obi Wan if it wasn't for the high ground, purged a whole temple of jedi, killed Count Dooku(One of the greatest sith duelist and force users) started jedi training at a very young age, has MUCH more experience after the clone wars.

Anakin beats this in a landslide.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Lets see...
Luke:
- Is half trained with but 4 years of training, most of that time he was without a mentor
- Rescued Leia from Black Sun HQ with the aid of Lando, Dash and Chewbacca.
- Defeated Guri in unarmed combat (pretty impressive, actually)
- Defeated all of Jabba's goons (minis Boba Fett, who Han took care of)
- Defeated Darth Vader when using his rage and when Vader wasn't trying to hurt Luke.

Pretty impressive...

Anakin:
- Survived the Battle of Geonosis as a Padawan
- Only surviver (besides Kenobi) or the Battle of Jabiim
- Defeated Asajj Ventress twice
- Killed Durge
- Killed Trinoxx
- Killed Saato
- Fought Karoc and Vinoc at the same time and kileld them both
- Defeated a Clone of Count Dooku
- Survived the Clone Wars
- Was the hero of the Clone Wars
- Killed Count Dooku

I'd say Anakin takes this in in a nutshell.

Although I'm not arguing with the fact that Anakin wins this with little difficulty, I think that you wrote out Luke's accomplishments to make them seem less significant.

Luke may have gotten powerful very quickly, but he wasn't at Anakin's level with the force, nor lightsaber combat.

Luke is definitely better in time of NJO, but at the time of ROTJ, Anakin is a lot better.

Originally posted by Council#13
Although I'm not arguing with the fact that Anakin wins this with little difficulty, I think that you wrote out Luke's accomplishments to make them seem less significant.
Do you think so? I really didn't try and make them less significant than they really are, what makes it seem like I did?

Isn't this like the fifth time this has been done? Ah well, it's a good thread so mods please don't close it.

I think Anakin probably takes this, but Luke gives on tough fight. For one, I'm pretty sure Luke actually has higher potential than Anakin. Now, before I'm tarred and feathered hear me out. In a natural state Luke is supposed to have Anakin's potential, I believe. The big thing here is that Luke has an artificial enhancement for his powers. The Kaiburr Crystal gives him higher potential than even Anakin, I think.

The main thing is that Luke managed to overpower Vader. Even Anakin doesn't have the raw power to do that. Anakin is far faster though and should take this do to his superior training and experince, not latent Force Power.

What?!

Vader is only dangerous do to his force sensitivity and power. Otherwise he can't use a lightsaber for life. Anakin on the other hand has a moderate force level, and added to that his rage, youth, and saber skill would overcome Luke. Yes, I would say Luke would defeat Anakin in a force fight, but not by a lot. But there is no way that Anakin would loose to Luke in saber fight. However, as I see this is both a force and saber duel, I think Anakin takes this. Anakin is fueled by rage and just harnessed the full power of the dark side, which is the most powerful state a sith can go to. Vader was just kind of pissed off, Anakin in ROTS just lost everything. Guess who would be more enraged? Anakin.

Vader is a lightsaber master, who has killed MANY skilled Jedi and Jedi Masters in lightsaber combat, when he fights Luke he's going half hearted and his son gets a DS boost.

Anakin has a moderate force connection? I guess you didn't see where he started shattering buildings by screaming, holding beings up and crushing them with the force, augmenting his physical strength so much that Dooku could barley keep his grip on his saber, him toppling the statue in ROTS the game, him owning Sera Keto with the force, ect ect...Luke doesn't compare in either saber or force combat.

Vader, was at his peak in the OT, the only liability with the cybernetics was that he couldn't perform flips and that his respirator console could be shorted out. If anything his robotic appendages eliminated - to a large extent - the problem of fatigue and made Vader harder to injure.

As the guy above said, Luke never faced-off against Vader trying his best. Luke even reflects years after ROTJ that Vader could easily have killed him if he wanted to.

Anakin was a lot more skilled in the force and just as talented as Luke if not more so (given that he was birthed by the force itself).

Luke would get destroyed Anakin is far better with a saber and the force . His training is far superior to Lukes and by the time of Rots he was a seasoned Jedi Knight. Anakin also has physical advantages over Luke being bigger stronger faster and more athletic. Luke would go down and go down hard.

Anakin would win this easily, he had a lot more training, has bigger potential then Luke(child of the Force itself) and had has a lot more battles and defeated better opponents(Dooku, Asajj, Cin Drallig and a lot more Jedi in the temple), while Luke defeated only Vader, who wasn't trying his best. Yea, Luke is a real challenge.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Do you think so? I really didn't try and make them less significant than they really are, what makes it seem like I did?

It just looks to me like their significance has been dimmed. But that's just what I think. It might not seem that way to other people, and apparently it's not what you intended, so it's all good.

Anakin wins.

Anakin was able to collapse a rooftop that was covering a hallway. But again, it was only the portion of the rooftop covering the hallway, not the entire buidling. Whatmore, the attack was pure instinct and was never demonstrated again. So I doubt Anakin will able to pull it off in this fight.

He took down Ventress with minimal difficulty, outmuscled Dooku, and knocked Obi Wan around silly.

He was stated by Dooku as being the best Djem So users he's ever seen, but this brings into question, how man Djem So masters has Dooku really ever seen? Regardless, it's still a point towards Anakin.

Luke has trained for three years, and was fighting a version of Anakin that was afraid to harm his son. He uses the same form as his father. With less training and less oppurtunity to use said form, Luke should naturally be weaker at it.

Where is it stated that Vader was holding back in ROTJ? Until I see it in canon sources, I'm not holding opinions as facts, especially when it contradicts other sources (novel and comic). If you have a source, that's fine. Vader is very powerful, and, Luke beating him is a testament to Lukes power, not against Vaders. I definitely don't see Luke going down here without a tough fight.

Luke beat Vader in a duel. Vader is very powerful. Read RODV, or look at Purge.
Vader: http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=128&page=026 http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=128&page=027

I need to go, but, I can bring up some quotes and such later, if you want.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Where is it stated that Vader was holding back in ROTJ? Until I see it in canon sources, I'm not holding opinions as facts, especially when it contradicts other sources (novel and comic). If you have a source, that's fine. Vader is very powerful, and, Luke beating him is a testament to Lukes power, not against Vaders. I definitely don't see Luke going down here without a tough fight.

Luke beat Vader in a duel. Vader is very powerful. Read RODV, or look at Purge.
Vader: http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=128&page=026 http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=128&page=027

I need to go, but, I can bring up some quotes and such later, if you want.

Luke after being pwned by a nightsister of dathomir states that Vader would have humbled him in similar fashion had he wanted to harm him in ROTJ. The source is the courtship of princess Leia .

Do you (or does anyone) happen to have the quote?

I just read that section, and, it confuses me. Luke does say to himself that Vader could have beat him with the force in a similar fashion... but, this is a post DE Luke, am I right? Vader could have beat a post DE Luke with the force?

I'll read it again later when I have some consciousness left...

Please post the quote when you find it.

The book takes place in 8ABY which is 2 years before Dark Empire.

"In his battles with Darth Vader and the Emperor, Luke felt he had never truly tested his powers to the limits. Vader had sought only to turn him, had kept Luke alive."

"His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion's spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield. So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me. "

Now, Luke having trouble with the Nightsisters makes sense and all, seeing as how Yoda did. ( "The report was nearly four hundred standard years old. Then Yoda appeared on the video, gazing up at the throne. His color was more vibrantly green than Luke remembered, and he did not use his walking stick. At middle age, Yoda had looked almost perky, carefree?not the bent, troubled old Jedi Luke had known. Most of the audio was erased, but through the background hiss Yoda clearly said, "We tried to free the Chu'unthor from Dathomir, but were repulsed by the witches . . . skirmish, with Masters Gra'aton and Vulatan. . . ." )

But what I don't get is it treating Luke as if he hadn't matured a day since ESB. He's still the whiny ANH Luke we see, when, we know that only two years later, he's taking down AT-AT's with the force and such.
Him reflecting on Vader being able to kill him makes it seem like he still could... It all seems like an inconsistency. However, we do know that, in lightsaber combat, Luke beat Vader.

Yes, when he used Force Rage.

Lol, it got a name now?

Originally posted by jollyjim311
"In his battles with Darth Vader and the Emperor, Luke felt he had never truly tested his powers to the limits. Vader had sought only to turn him, had kept Luke alive."

"His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion's spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield. So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me. "

Now, Luke having trouble with the Nightsisters makes sense and all, seeing as how Yoda did. ( "The report was nearly four hundred standard years old. Then Yoda appeared on the video, gazing up at the throne. His color was more vibrantly green than Luke remembered, and he did not use his walking stick. At middle age, Yoda had looked almost perky, carefree?not the bent, troubled old Jedi Luke had known. Most of the audio was erased, but through the background hiss Yoda clearly said, "We tried to free the Chu'unthor from Dathomir, but were repulsed by the witches . . . skirmish, with Masters Gra'aton and Vulatan. . . ." )

But what I don't get is it treating Luke as if he hadn't matured a day since ESB. He's still the whiny ANH Luke we see, when, we know that only two years later, he's taking down AT-AT's with the force and such.
Him reflecting on Vader being able to kill him makes it seem like he still could... It all seems like an inconsistency. However, we do know that, in lightsaber combat, Luke beat Vader. Does this mean vader is as strong as post DE luke?

No, it means that Vader is stronger than ROTJ Luke because that's what would have happened to Luke if Vader had tried to kill him when they fought in ROTJ, not if they fought post DE.

ok well that quote also proves that vader never used his powers to its fullest in the movies

It is 2 years before DE, guys, that was my mistake by saying it was post DE. However, that quote makes it seem like Vader could still take him, 8 years after Luke defeated him....


Doesn't it?

Actually, all that the quote speaks for is how Vader would have defeated Luke at the time they dueled, it has no relation the the then current Luke, though Vader could most likely take him anyway, but that's neither here nor there.




No it doesn't, it means that he never used his powers to the fullest against Luke. Against Obi-Wan, he would have had no reason not to fight at his very best, and the Ultimate Visual Guide conforms with this. So unlucky about the quote in no way changing that Vader sucks donkey dick.

Nebaris, copying and pasting arguments that got destroyed an one your other socks accounts doesn't make it right now.

How about copying and pasting one of those killer rebuttals? Oh and btw, you must have me confused with someone else, who would Nebaris be?

How about you look in the last topic you tried to call Vader shit in...Vader vs Bane, where in that topic your argument got completely destroyed and you ran away and Zelphiel to debate for you since you know...suck ass. The real question is why hasn't this latest instalment of of you been banned yet?

besides, that argument makes no sense whatsoever. If he fought like shit, at his best, in ANH, and then fights better in ESB and ROTJ when not at his best, how is his ANH performance his cap? Obviously he wasn't fighting his best against OB1, otherwise he would have never improved, which he did. Given this statement, he wasn't going all out because he wasn't trying to kill Luke. All in all, Vader could have taken Luke at any moment. He didn't have to toy with him, talk and throw his saber near him, talk some more and blah blah blah...Vader could have killed Luke in that fight, and ROTS Anakin would just straight up smash Luke in a duel.

That's because it's easier to display more skill and power against a weaker opponent than it is a stronger one. Also, since when would you automatically fight with far less speed and skill when holding back from killing someone? It's not like Vader was trying to make himself appear weaker or anything, and it's not like he wouldn't be able to prevent himself killing Luke if he was fighting with all his skill, which you guys seem to think. Refraining yourself from killing your opponent in no way makes you fight with less skill.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
How about you look in the last topic you tried to call Vader shit in...Vader vs Bane, where in that topic your argument got completely destroyed and you ran away and Zelphiel to debate for you since you know...suck ass. The real question is why hasn't this latest instalment of of you been banned yet?

Here's a tip: slow down, take it easy, and please try and make sense, Papa Bear. Now how about copying and pasting your awesome rebuttals onto this thread, and I can guarantee I'll destroy it.

Why would I bother? I've already beaten your argument before Nebaris, you got nothing new (your still touting the UVG as your only source) and even in the UVG its says Vader was confident he'd win. You basing "Vader sucks" off of "He did his best to wear the old Jedi down" is ridicules. Oh and I believe you've had one other source which was a quote by Lucas that you twisted to try and fit your sad argument. And that got shitted on too. So no little buddy I'm not wasting my time.

Really, why would I post an argument when you've yet to even make single one that even makes sense and doesn't twist Lucas's word.

And I HIGHLY doubt you'd destroy ANY argument on theses forums since its never happened, and likely never will.

Question: Why aren't you banned yet.

Originally posted by allfg
That's because it's easier to display more skill and power against a weaker opponent than it is a stronger one. Also, since when would you automatically fight with far less speed and skill when holding back from killing someone? It's not like Vader was trying to make himself appear weaker or anything, and it's not like he wouldn't be able to prevent himself killing Luke if he was fighting with all his skill, which you guys seem to think. Refraining yourself from killing your opponent in no way makes you fight with less skill.

Nebaris we've also been through the whole "holding back doesn't make you less skilled." and you proved you know absolutely nothing about REAL sword fighting, sports and MMA. Stick to Star Wars.


Oh yes because Old Hermit Kenobi is SOOOOOO powerful that he forced Darth Vader to slow down to ridiculously slow speeds.

Even though we've seen Vader go toe to toe with Darth Maul, Dark Lady so many damn other Jedi, we've seen him move lightning fast, ect ect.

But it was Old Ben who Vader had commented on his powers DRASTICALLY declining, and who Vader thought was a joke, who FINALLY pushed Vader to his limits!

Really Nebaris...oh and BTW ROTJ Luke >>>>>>>>> Old Ben.

1. The Ultimate Visual Guide states that Vader did his best to wear Old Ben down. In other words, he tried his hardest, and performed to the best of his abilities.

2. Logic dictates that when you try your hardest against an opponent, you would display your true skill.

3. Against Old Hermit Kenobi as you put it, Vader is slow, unagile, strikes with his saber unfluidly, has terrible footwork, and displays no real skill.

In other words, Vader sucks donkey dick.

But go ahead and refute this, if you can. But just so you know, unrelated boxing analogies and clear misunderstanding of the whole concept of taunting your opponent won't cut it.

Originally posted by allfg
Against Old Hermit Kenobi as you put it Sidious, Vader Mace is slow, unagile, strikes with his saber unfluidly, has terrible footwork, and displays no real skill.

In other words, Vader Mace Windu sucks donkey dick.

But go ahead and refute this, if you can.

That's why we have EU.

Old Ben let Vader kill him only due to the fact that he wanted to become a spirit to guide Luke. He KNEW luke would become a great jedi, and he wanted him to suceed. Ben wanted to help Luke become such a jedi, because Ben KNEW that only Luke can bring balance to the force and kill Vader.

Originally posted by allfg
1. The Ultimate Visual Guide states that Vader did his best to wear Old Ben down. In other words, he tried his hardest, and performed to the best of his abilities.

2. Logic dictates that when you try your hardest against an opponent, you would display your true skill.

3. Against Old Hermit Kenobi as you put it, Vader is slow, unagile, strikes with his saber unfluidly, has terrible footwork, and displays no real skill.

In other words, Vader sucks donkey dick.

But go ahead and refute this, if you can. But just so you know, unrelated boxing analogies and clear misunderstanding of the whole concept of taunting your opponent won't cut it.


I'm not wasting my time since I've already done it.

Originally posted by Spidervlad
Old Ben let Vader kill him only due to the fact that he wanted to become a spirit to guide Luke. He KNEW luke would become a great jedi, and he wanted him to suceed. Ben wanted to help Luke become such a jedi, because Ben KNEW that only Luke can bring balance to the force and kill Vader.


That Ben let him kill him, is correct. However, either if you were aiming at this or not, it does not mean Obi is superior. (Note, I'm not saying you're saying that)

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
I'm not wasting my time since I've already done it.

Copy.
And.
Paste.
B1tch.

And then in the sentence before that it says he's confident he'd win. His exact line in the movie is:

"Your powers are weak, old man."

In the script and novel it indicates that Obi Wan was outclassed, and he was being overwhelmed by Vaders mere presence

"Ben seems to be under increasing pressure and strain,
as if an invisible weight were being placed upon him. He
shakes his head and, blinking, tries to clear his eyes." - ANH script

But yes clearly these two are equals and that Obi Wan is a match for Vader even though he could barley focus because of Vaders power weighing down on him.

Your quote doesn't even make sense in the context its in, the quote is referring to the scene when they enter the docking bay and Vader is apparently "trying his best" when all Vader does in that scene is slash twice, jab and lock sabers. Then we have Vader in ROTJ moving with MUCH more speed, constant attacks, being able to defend MUCH better then he had, MUCH more control and precision, and even then he wasn't going all out.

Before you start "well lessesr opponnets blahblaala" ROTJ Luke is clearly stronger then Old Ben in the force, he is better physical shape, is quicker, stronger and a all around MUCH better duelist. Plus he has the Kaiburr crystal bumping up his force abilities.

Your logic contradicts the movies and all forms of common sense.

My sources > The Ultimate Visual Guide.




Some ones really stuck on bestiality...



Nebaris when will you understand that your shit is weak and you all around suck ass?

Again, learn to understand the whole concept behind taunting your opponent, dumbass. It doesn't suddenly mean that you must be taking it easy or not seriously or anything, which is what you're trying (and failing) to prove.



Wow, clearly someone needs to learn how to read, because I never said that Ben and Vader were close or equals or anything, in other words that entire post was useless and a waste of time, so unlucky you big dummy. The point is, no matter how much better Vader was, he was clearly trying his best against Vader. Vader's superiority is irrelevant. The point I'm arguing is that he didn't hold back against Ben, and what he showed in ANH is an accurate description of how skilled he is.



Again you're wrong. The quote is in respect to the entire duel, so again, your post is a huge waste of time. Doesn't it feel bad wasting all this time and constantly being wrong, Papa Bear?

And in response to what I put in bold, you have still failed to respond to this:

Also, since when would you automatically fight with far less speed and skill when holding back from killing someone? It's not like Vader was trying to make himself appear weaker or anything, and it's not like he wouldn't be able to prevent himself killing Luke if he was fighting with all his skill, which you guys seem to think. Refraining yourself from killing your opponent in no way makes you fight with less skill.

Chop chop big guy!



He also lacks experience, control, and wields his saber like a baseball bat. Obi-Wan's expertise and mastery of the saber is much greater than Luke's, and he knows how to handle the kind of shit from Vader that Luke couldn't. And you speak as if Vader was leagues better in the other movies that he was in ANH, which is BS.



No it doesn't.



I say it how it is. Vader sucks donkey dick, bad.



GayCStyles, when will you understand that your shit is whack and you all around suck dick?

Ben can't be superior to Vader. Ben would have probably left Vader a really good fight before loosing his ground, but he knew he would fail and so thought he should just go into his spirit form as soon as possible to aid Luke. He knew that Luke was the only person who Vader could defeat.

Vader didn't see him as a clear threat, thats made evident through his constant berating of Obi Wan and the very visual guide your touting gives Vaders personal view which pretty much says. "Vader was confident he'd win" Obi Wan was no clear or present danger to Vader thus Vader didn't go all out. Why would he go completely serious against a foe he views as a joke, not only that its inconsistent with his latter performances in the movies. The quote is wrong.



You can't seem to grasp the fact that Vader performs better latter in the saga against a stronger opponent. That was the point of the post in comparison to ROTJ Luke. And yet I need to learn to read? Lol try again Nebaris.



Wow, clearly someone can't make sense to save his life.



And that point has been smashed. Not to mention its inconsistent with the movies.




"As there battle brings them to the corridor outside the docking bay, the Sith Lord does his best ot wear down the aged Jedi and when Ben appears to surrender, Vader doesn't hesitate to strike."

Anyone with a brain(not you) will tell you that your little quote is about one section of the duel. Again your wrong.





I skim your posts since they lack any form of intelligence what so ever, so don't be surprised if I don't address your "argument"

I've already smashed this point, does a fencer who's holding back from making any contact blows and is only trying to dodge and pary his opponent and in all is is treating the match as a joke would he fight with the same kind of speed and ferocity that he would against a serious foe? No.

Say Lebron James was playing basketball with a kid, is he gonna dunk on him? Cross the shit out of him? Pack every shot he attempts? No. He'd play with probably 5% of his actual skill level.

If I'm wrestling around with my kid brother am I going to mount him, rain blows down on his head and break his face open? No. Would I do that in a real street fight? Yeah.

Holding yourself back from fighting your fullest = not fighting with your true skill. Common sense.

You seem to think that Vader was simply refraining from landing killing blows nut overall was using all his skills to handle Luke in ROTJ. No, Vader was emotionally conflicted, he has his son challenging 20 years of everything he knew, there is no way in hell he'd fight with his full skill, and yet THAT was STILL superior to his performance in ANH, which can CLEARLY be seen as Vader f*ckin with Obi Wan.





That was in one bout of anger, other then that he shows skill in every aspect of dueling, experience has NOTHING to do with power (you should know that being a Bane cock sucker and all) control? Who cares.




Are you serious? Those Soresu skills were long gone at that point, Luke proved in the ROTJ duel that he is physically stronger, faster, and a better duelist then Obi Wan. Not that mastery of the saber has ANYTHING to do with how good you are, do I have to remind you of:

Nomi: who picked up the saber and wielded it like a master on her first try

Exar Kun: Who beat Vodo as a padawan

Bane: Who with months of training beats a guy with 40+ years

Anakin: Whom all it took was his raw power to destroy Dooku who had been training for 70+ years in lightsaber combat.

If you think that this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SpwST6qToH4

Is better then this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqS5x-PiHpw&NR

Your a f*cking retard.




"Oh my days!"

Obi Wan Kenobi was shitting his pants at the mere presence of Vader, Luke was handling his own and winning against Vader who was displaying more skill then he'd ever shown in the OT.



Yes, he is look at the damn clips.

Your whole argument revolves around the fact that your hoping Obi Wan was the strongest foe that Vader faced, and yet he faces a MUCH stronger foe in ROTJ and runs circles around his performance in ANH, thus making it look like he was joking around largely with Obi Wan and that his skills didn't even warrant Vaders full power. That is the ONLY In Universe explanation for the duel (since you complain about out of universe facts) without the movies contradicting themselves. Its common sense.




Again leave your fetish for donkey cocks out of these debates. Nobody cares.



Again your so clever! Let me ask you: how long did it take you to think that up? Nebaris aren't you on your second waring all ready? That kind of talk is ground for a banning. But you'll just come back because you have no life at all. Dude your a loser.

Okay, let me think about this.....................done!!!! ANAKIN!!! How can he not win. Yeah sure, Luke is fantastic, but Anakin has too much raw power and ability to use the force that the young Skywalker can handle. I think it will be a real long, tough fight, but Anakin will win.
starwars

God I miss Janus in times like these. The pipsqueak with two weeks of training who defeated his physically crippled father with the conflicting emotional problems,

vs.

The guy with the rock hard abs who killed dozens of Jedi single-handedly, kicked Dooku's ass, Obi-Wan's if he hadn't been so cocky, and did what he did before all that (I ain't naming it all).

Luke for sure man, his hair was way cooler.

Originally posted by allfg


No it doesn't, it means that he never used his powers to the fullest against Luke. Against Obi-Wan, he would have had no reason not to fight at his very best, and the Ultimate Visual Guide conforms with this. So unlucky about the quote in no way changing that Vader sucks donkey dick. Dumb ass lets not forget how inconsistent the visual guide is, stating that the handmaiden killed nihilus blah blah blah and sion being nihilus apprentice, sadly sir ACstyles already smashed you to pieces before i did

Again, you really need to understand how taunts work. They're used to sikologicaly break down your opponent, and this point alone in no way proves that Vader didn't consider Ben a serious threat.



That was said in respect to his feelings before the duel. And again, you're working under the assumption that Vader can't possibly go full out against an opponent who he doesn't consider a serious threat. Perhaps his hatred of Ben made him want to go full out and annihilate him on the spot, even though he wasn't a threat, who knows? The point is, an inconclusive assumption in no way retcons a directly stated fact.



Again:

1. The improvement really isn't great enough for you to label it as an inconsistency. Perhaps he slightly improved after that point.

2. A weaker opponent would enable you to show off more and display more skill.



1. You're ignoring Vader's improvement rate after his duel with Obi-Wan and his duel with Luke in RotJ.

2. He only performs slightly better.

3. Luke is in no way a superior duelist to Ben Kenobi. He wields his saber like a baseball bat, he lacks control, precision, he's inexperienced and hasn't even mastered a form. Ben's got far greater experience, his mastery and expertise with a saber is much greater, and he's in far more control.

BTW, only old men use words like 'latter'.



Wow, clearly someone is desperate to avoid as many points as possible. Don't be silly, clearly you can see what I was trying to say, so why not answer it?



Your wanabee rebuttal has been 'smashed'. Try again.



OK, my bad, but in respect to my stance and your's, it doesn't change a thing. Vader was still trying his hardest at that particular point of the duel, and he still failed to show anything too impressive, so my argument remains, and you're still wrong. Unlucky about that.



He would move as quickly as he could, he would dodge as well as he could, and he would parry as well as he could. Would he attack his opponent as quickly or as forcefully? Clearly not, but this is where your analogy fails, because a random fencer doesn't possess the kind of precision that Vader receives, to the point where he'd likely be able to hold his saber a centimeter away from Luke, yet still have the control to not kill him. Due to that fact alone, Vader wouldn't worry about having to go and attack Luke full out, because the force grants him the kind of precision where he would be in complete control, even when being as forceful and furious as possible. And it's not just that Vader showed a lack of skill, he actually showed clear signs of incompetence throughout the duel, such as when he couldn't defend against Luke's baseball bat onslaught, or when he lacked the skill to dodge that smoke tube that Luke sprayed at Vader in ESB. Would the fencer show those levels of incompetence against his opponent in your example? No.



A basketball analogy? Basketball in no way compares to swordfighting, and the gap between Vader and Luke in power clearly isn't the same as it is between LeBron James and a kid in basketball skillz.

If I'm wrestling around with my kid brother am I going to mount him, rain blows down on his head and break his face open? No. Would I do that in a real street fight? Yeah.

Again, this analogy fails, again. In your example, you wouldn't be doing those things not specifically so you don't kill your kid brother, but so you don't hurt him. Vader had no issues with that, all he was doing was refraining himself from killing Luke. And when you include the fact that there's no pain factor included in swordfighting until someone gets a proper hit on you, your analogy completely fails.



Well when you put it like that, you'd be correct, but what you're doing here is called twisting what we're arguing about. My argument isn't that a fighter would display their true skill even when holding himself back from fighting at his fullest (that itself is actually a contradiction), what I'm saying is that simply holding yourself back from killing your opponent (and taking the force and other factors into consideration) in no way would make you display a false representation of your true skill, and definitely not so far as to show clear display of incompetence.



Yet he was still perfectly alright with watching Sidious lightning the crap out of his ass for about 15 seconds. Please, his inner conflict wasn't a factor whatsoever until at the very end where he picked up Sidious and threw him down the reactor shaft.



All the reason to fight to your fullest... Do you actually enjoy constant weakening your points as you go along?



In your opinion yes. Methinks your opinion is pretty whack.



1. You're improving improvement rate.

2. Ben is a better duelist than RotJ Luke. It's easier to show off more against a weaker opponent.

3. You're over hyping the improvement beyond belief.

4. You're lame.



Not really, he doesn't do much better in the entire duel, clearly you have no clue at how to interpret swordfighting.



1. Rephrase this. I have no clue what you're chatting about, what the feck is power control?

2. Please AC, leave your orbalisk fettish out of this, you weird person.



His speed and strength and maybe even a bit of his precision and handle over a lightsaber had gone a bit, but why his mastery? It's not like he was out of practise or anything.



That's great for Luke, but don't start cheerleading his ass just yet.



No, technically, he sucks, and much worse than Ben does (even though he sucks a little too).



Oh my fricking days, this has got to be the dumbest shit you've yet to come up with. How the fvck does mastery of the saber have no relation on how great a duelist you are? You're dumb.



I'm not saying that mastery is the big be all end all of saber combat, but to deny that it's a factor is plain retarded. Are you retarded?



Yeah, I'd pick Ben's controlled use of a lightsaber is above Luke's clumbsy use, skill irregardless.

Oh my days, why are you being a copycat, you big copycat?



I'm sure you were you weirdo, but that would just be you, and certainly not Ben.



Refer to my earlier posts, you have no point.







There's no fetish, I just say it as it is: you dress up as Darth Vader and suck donkey dick.



It took me as long as it took you to come up with those awesome analogies.



That's right, I'm on my second waring, you fricking dumbass.



Aren't you a college student? And you come here? Dude, you're lame.

"Oh my days" your about to get shitted on.

I'm not gonna respond to that whole crapped ass post because you've already ended the topic for yourself with this:



By that great logic, ROTJ Luke is better then Vader since he overpowered and beat Vader in straight dueling twice, something Old Ben couldn't do once, and even he made mention in the his POV in the ANH novel that if he could have beaten Vader he would have but he lacked the skills.

ROTJ Luke > Old Ben.

With that said, Vader himself manages to push back Luke (who is stronger then Old Ben) in straight dueling and he defended much better then he did in ANH, in fact his entire lightsaber style changes in ANH he duels with both hands which is NOT his custom style.

So lets see the evidence I have to support me:

-Vader curiously was not using his custom style that he had created in ROVD 18 years earlier and spent that time perfecting it against Jedi/Sith stronger then Old Ben to name a few: Dark Lady, Darth Maul, Roan Shyne (who at that point in ROVD was compared Obi Wan in his prime) the eight Jedi in Purge.

-He does however use his custom style against ROTJ Luke.

-Old Ben was shaking, perspiring, and overall was overwhelmed by Vaders presence.

-Vader knew he'd win the duel.

-Vader performs better against foes stronger then Obi Wan in ROTJ.

-Your quote doesn't make sense in the context its in, Vader does only two weak jabs and a slash and yet I'm seriously supposed to believe that is his best especially when he's dueled the likes of Darth Maul and won. Get the f*ck out of here.

-Old Ben displays NONE of the legendary Soresu skill he once had.

-Old Ben was hermit in a hut on Tatooine were its noted that the constant sand storms and hard living wear people down. Obi Wan who by the looks of him and his skills, hadn't touched his saber in years and was HEAVILY out of practice.

-Vader on the other hand, day job was to kill Jedi and had to stay on top of his game.

vs

-One quote that doesn't even make sense in the context its in, from a sourcebook riddled with errors.

All logical evidence points to Vader holding back, toying with Obi Wan.

Your argument = destroyed.

Discussion over.

BTW: I'm in high school dip shit. So run along now and get back to jerkin off to donkey dicks.

Well if you want to grasp to the literal meaning of the text, then wearing down in no way means kill, which means he was trying his best to make Ben more tired, most likely in an attempt to further ridicule him, before he chose to kill him. So, based on the English language that the quotes are written in, Vader was trying his best to make Ben tired and thusly, not trying not to kill him. Not trying to inflict the most possible damage you can = not trying your best, or not fighting to your maximum capacity.

For instance, Randy Couture, one of the world's best Grecko Roman wrestlers, and possibly the greatest UFC Champion ever (and soon to be new heavyweight champ!), was on Pros vs Joes. On the show, he wrestled i believe 4 or 5 guys in a UFC ring. Now, he wasn't trying his best to demolish the guys cause it would be too easy and he wasn't using his full arsenal and he was only submitting them; however, he was trying his best not to be submitted by them, and open stated that he help nothing back from his submission game on them. So overall, was he trying his best to beat them and hurt them? No, but was he "trying his best to wear them down", submit them and not be submitted himself? Absolutely.

Now on to the weaker opponent thing...Looking better or more skilled against a weaker adversary has nothing to do with the speed with which you move. It has nothing to do with your footwork or how well you tie lightsaber attacks together.

If the Colts played the Saints and Peyton scrambled back and threw a 30 yard TD pass, and then did the EXACT SAME play against the Bucs, the Colts' performance would physically look the same; however the performance level at which the Bucs were defending with, would pale in comparison to the Saints.

You can only compare one opponent to the other when fighting Vader, not to Vader. That's not a fair comparison. And I don't mean fair as in "i wanna be a master too, its not fair!" I mean fair as it is not logical to draw a comparison and contrast in that respect. If Luke was the weaker opponent, why did he get a hit in on Vader and then beat him? Vader holding back or not? Ben couldn't do it...but Luke could. Luke was much better than Ben at that time and showed it by doing better against a better Vader. Luke didn't make Vader look good, Vader did. He was much more agile and fluent with his motions, and even though was holding back, fought with more ferocity against Luke, as he still saw him as a slightly lager threat.

Coture is gonna beat the shit out of Silvia.

Anakin would win after a hard fight

No i think he would win little difficulty, Anakin is much more skilled then Luke by the time ROTJ.

For the record, From the novelization:

"Your powers are weak." Vader to Ben.

"You still have your skill, but your power fades." -Vader to Ben.

"Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our last parting." -Ben to Vader.

So I take it, while Ben was still a powerful contender, he had been more focused on the non-combat oriented parts of the force, while Vader just became more powerful.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
For the record, From the novelization:

"Your powers are weak." Vader to Ben.

"You still have your skill, but your power fades." -Vader to Ben.

"Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our last parting." -Ben to Vader.

So I take it, while Ben was still a powerful contender, he had been more focused on the non-combat oriented parts of the force, while Vader just became more powerful.

What has this, to do with this fight, between ROTS Anakin and ROTJ Luke?

I was posting it for AC, mostly, but, sorry if I've in some way offended you.

AC, COUTURE"S THE NEW CHAMP, BABY!!! You see the first punch he threw laying Sylvia on his ass?! That shit had me hyped. Bout time someone beat his b!tch ass.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
I was posting it for AC, mostly, but, sorry if I've in some way offended you.

Its okay, i thought you replied to my post.

Originally posted by Allankles
Yeah! But Anakin was just as talented if not more, and only lost to a prime Obi Wan. By 23 Anakin was probably as powerful as Luke by the end of vision of the future .

More powerful actually, ALOT more powerful.

And Anakin didn't lose to a prime Obi-Wan.

Vader did.

Vader was blinded by rage.

A clear-headed and focused Anakin would have cut Obi-Wan to ribbons in seconds and sent his remains into a stream of lava.

Everyone knows that.

Anakin takes this btw.

ROTS Anakin is starting to learn his true power, but ROTJ Luke is already established. Lukes wins after a long fight.

What, you have to be kidding, Anakin takes this easy, he is just a better combatant.

Yup.

Yeaj.

Luke would get curbstomped end of story.

ROTJ Luke would get beat by AOTC Anakin. ROTS Anakin, who turned Dooku into a joke, would cum on Luke and kill him.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
ROTJ Luke would get beat by AOTC Anakin. ROTS Anakin, who turned Dooku into a joke, would cum on Luke and kill him.

Lawlz and smielz 4 teh slang!!1!1