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Ok, I searched, nothing came up. (Though it has probably been done before).

Who is the best LIGHTSABER user here? Who would win in a duel with just their lightsaber skills and no force powers?

ESB Vader and ROTS Anakin!

ROTS Anakin is probably the best duelist that ever lived up until ROTJ, then Luke becomes the best. Anakin is better then Vader, faster, has a bigger connection to the Force and therefore he can sense and predict lightsaber strikes better then anyone else.

May be so (I would put Yoda above ROTS Anakin in saber battle), but Vader has many things to his advantage as well...


He is calmer, knows more about his younger self, can utilize weak points.
He has mastered his style (and other ones as well) to a higher degree.
More experience in duelling.

Now I'm not saying Vader wins, but I just wanted to state some of his advantages.

Anakin Skywalker versus Vader? Hmm, pretty hard battle. I hear Anakin was pretty good, even wtfpwned Cin Drallig and Count Dooku. Though Vader is strong enough to pick up a dude with one arm, so perhaps he could just beat the blade out of Anakin Skywalkers hand!
Vader also perfected the same lightsaber form Anakin Skywalker did and mastered it fully, he also defeated Darth Obi Wan who defeated Anakin and we know age does not matter in star wars.

Come to think about it, Vader and Anakin are very alike. Hmm.. Pretty weird..

Originally posted by Count Makashi
ROTS Anakin is probably the best duelist that ever lived up until ROTJ, then Luke becomes the best. Anakin is better then Vader, faster, has a bigger connection to the Force and therefore he can sense and predict lightsaber strikes better then anyone else.

Anakin would > vader in saber combat but a stronger connection to the force? sorry vaders force mastery > anakins and so does vaders force skill, however this is a light saber duel ONLY so anakin > vader in pure saber combat. And sense saber strikes better than anybody else?

Sry that comes under precognition which is under force category which vader has the upperhand.

If this is crystal clear minded anakin, vaders fuked and dont forget vader can use psychology to get anakin out of that state and may be able to defeat him, notice the word "may". i did not say vader will win, only a possibility

anakins advantage is his speed and agility, vaders advantage is in his strength and knowledge of his former self.
Like kamikz said, he knows his former self's weaknesses.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Anakin would > vader in saber combat but a stronger connection to the force? sorry vaders force mastery > anakins and so does vaders force skill, however this is a light saber duel ONLY so anakin > vader in pure saber combat. And sense saber strikes better than anybody else?

Sry that comes under precognition which is under force category which vader has the upperhand.

If this is crystal clear minded anakin, vaders fuked and dont forget vader can use psychology to get anakin out of that state and may be able to defeat him, notice the word "may". i did not say vader will win, only a possibility

anakins advantage is his speed and agility, vaders advantage is in his strength and knowledge of his former self.
Like kamikz said, he knows his former self's weaknesses.

Anakin has a better connection to the Force, i didn't say he has better Force powers, Vader lost a huge connection to the Force on Mustafar and yes he can sense(predicts danger because of the Force) better then anyone else, because he has mastered thelightsaber combat and can channel his incredible connection to the Force in his fights with lightsaber, but he cant channel it to his Force powers, because, he hasn't mastered them.

So we agree, that Anakin is better in swordplay and Vader has better Force powers.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Anakin has a better connection to the Force, i didn't say he has better Force powers, Vader lost a huge connection to the Force on Mustafar and yes he can sense(predicts danger because of the Force) better then anyone else, because he has mastered thelightsaber combat and can channel his incredible connection to the Force in his fights with lightsaber, but he cant channel it to his Force powers, because, he hasn't mastered them.

So we agree, that Anakin is better in swordplay and Vader has better Force powers. You mean potential? Yes vader did lose alot of potential on mustafar but it did not effect his ability to control the darkside and even being crippled, vader is a formidable opponent with the lightsaber.

Do not forget vader had also added other lightsaber forms to his already-mastered djem so to compensate him for his lack of speed.

Lastly vader has knowledge on his former self as kamikz mentioned

Vader completely shut out everything about his former self from his mind shortly after Purge; his identity, his memories, and everything about his former self (which would include the way he fights), and considering that 22 years have gone by since Vader's mutilation at Mustafar for ESB Vader, I really don't see how he's supposed to know how his former self fights to such an intense degree as you guys seem to think.

He was trying, yeah, but he could never forget who he actually was.

Seeing how Vader actually expanded on his fighting style, I couldn't possibly see how he could've started from scratch....

And you would never forget the dumbest move in your life, the one who cost Vader everything. He would know how he acted, he would take advantage of these things for sure...

Here its probably Vader. Anakin was still very raw in his abilities. As Vader he is much more powerful.

Originally posted by LORDSIDIOUS01
Here its probably Vader. Anakin was still very raw in his abilities. As Vader he is much more powerful.
Are you serious?

Anakin ROTS will defeat ESB Vader in combat.

Vader himself said that he is less powerful then he used to be in ROTS days.

Anakin is faster, has betetr reflexes, Vader had more strength but Anakin's strong, too, Anakin has more flexibility and he bested Dooku, who's a great swordsman and even rivaled Yoda. Vader was only on par with ANH Kenobi, and Anakin is stronger than the more powerful ROTS Kenobi. Plus he's a level 9 swordsman, same as ROTS Sidious, ESB Vader's only 80% of Sidious and saber combat isn't even ESB Vader's strong point so he'd be even less that 80% of Sidious in saber combat. I don't think Sidious really increased his saber skills between trilogies, just his Force skills, so. Yes, Anakin wins, I'd personally put ESB Vader as a low to middle level 8 swordsman.

Nick Gillard is no canon source, probably not a source at all....

Originally posted by Count Makashi
ROTS Anakin is probably the best duelist that ever lived up until ROTJ, then Luke becomes the best. Anakin is better then Vader, faster, has a bigger connection to the Force and therefore he can sense and predict lightsaber strikes better then anyone else.

Hardly. I suppose you forgot about Mace, Sidious, Yoda, Exar Kun, Ulic Qel Droma, etc.

It could be argued that Anakin is better than those people. And Gillard is C-Canon.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Are you serious?

Anakin ROTS will defeat ESB Vader in combat.

Vader himself said that he is less powerful then he used to be in ROTS days. Less powerful? name the source please, clearly the movies and common sense prove vaders force mastery > anakins. And clearly vader was referring to the raw power he once had, what use is super powers when you dont have the mastery of it?

Its like having a nuclear missile and not knowing which button to press,

However i do believe anakin takes down vader in pure saber combat

Originally posted by kamikz
He was trying, yeah, but he could never forget who he actually was.

That's not what I was saying, I was saying that it's very unlikely that Vader would have remembered such intimate knowledge of the way he fought, given that 22 years had gone by, and he had tried as hard as he could to shut his identity out of his mind for all those years.



The style, yes, but knowledge of his former fighting tendencies, and weaknesses and whatnot, very unlikely.



Right, I'm sure he'd be able to push Anakin into making that very same mistake again.

Originally posted by allfg
That's not what I was saying, I was saying that it's very unlikely that Vader would have remembered such intimate knowledge of the way he fought, given that 22 years had gone by, and he had tried as hard as he could to shut his identity out of his mind for all those years.



The style, yes, but knowledge of his former fighting tendencies, and weaknesses and whatnot, very unlikely.



Right, I'm sure he'd be able to push Anakin into making that very same mistake again.


If Vader was in a fight with his younger self, of course he would have a mind advantage. It is not like he has forgotten his past, he doesn't need to know how Anakin fought, cause it is all about Anakin's personality.
He knows himself that his own mistakes when being young was his arrogance and that he was to flashy, that is why he changed.
Needless to say, he has the mind advantage, undoubtedly.

Uh... Obviously, if this is Anakin by ROTS, he has never even MADE that mistake, if he had, it wouldn't be ROTS Anakin, but Darth Vader in the suit after the accident.



And Darth sith, where does it say Gillard is a C canon source?

Darth Vader just needs to hold off Anakin and wait for him to screw up.

From RODV:
"Did Sidious turn you into the monstrosity you've become?"
"No, Shryne," Vader said in a flat voice. "I did this to myself-with some help from Obi-Wan Kenobi."

Vader definitely has the skill and enough advantages to hold him off long enough for Anakin to screw up.

How can Vader fight himself?

Because we have imagination...

"Imagination, no it is not"

"Yeah, it is."

You're acting as if only Vader would be the only person who has those advantages against Anakin, when pretty much everyone who knew Anakin would. I was only arguing against him knowing Anakin's fighting tendencies and weaknesses and the like inside out.



When I said 'again', I didn't quite mean it like that. My point was, you can't argue that Anakin would make that very same mistake every time he's up against someone on par with Obi-Wan. That would be like saying that Mace would always disarm Sidious with a kick if they were to fight, which is ridiculous, because both of these mentioned occurrences are dependant on the specific and unique circumstances that the fight entailed.

I agree, that wouldn't happened every time, Anakin wouldn't make same mistakes in every fight, if he fought like he did Against Dooku he has a very good chance of wining.

If Vader fought Anakin prior to Mustafar he would win.

What do you mean prior to Mustafar, in his clear mind state like with Dooku, maybe , depends on the terrain, where he could use his better Force powers, like trow stuff at him, like he did against Luke in ESB, but in a saber match, Anakin clear minded like against Dooku, Vader loses.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
What do you mean prior to Mustafar, in his clear mind state like with Dooku, maybe , depends on the terrain, where he could use his better Force powers, like trow stuff at him, like he did against Luke in ESB, but in a saber match, Anakin clear minded like against Dooku, Vader loses. And dont forget vader knows that anakin in his clear mind is unbeateble and thus would us psychology to change that state of mind, Wookie has madwe it clear psychology is part of vaders aresenal in a fight

This however is a pure lightsaber match not an all out fight becauuse in a force fight and all out fight, vader > anakin, his grip killed some body far far away, he used force crush to take down tanks the size of an ATAT and he was able to shake down buildings in EAW with a technique.


For just a saber match itself, this is a good debate

Originally posted by allfg
You're acting as if only Vader would be the only person who has those advantages against Anakin, when pretty much everyone who knew Anakin would. I was only arguing against him knowing Anakin's fighting tendencies and weaknesses and the like inside out.



When I said 'again', I didn't quite mean it like that. My point was, you can't argue that Anakin would make that very same mistake every time he's up against someone on par with Obi-Wan. That would be like saying that Mace would always disarm Sidious with a kick if they were to fight, which is ridiculous, because both of these mentioned occurrences are dependant on the specific and unique circumstances that the fight entailed.


Being himself would have a major advantage, it's not like "anyone who knows him". You've got to understand that. If you when you were 50 and met yourself at this age (assuming you are not 50), you will understand yourself alot easier than probably any of your friends...




Did I say he would make the exact same mistake?

The thing is, he had been trying to completely shut out his former life for twenty years. Given the huge amount of time that has gone by, and the fact that he was trying desperately to forget everything about himself during those years, which would include his fighting tendencies, I really don't see how he's supposed to know himself better than someone like Obi-Wan or Yoda. Obviously he'd remember that he was somewhat reckless and arrogant, but who knew Anakin and didn't know those things? To argue that he'd retain such intimate information about his former fighting tendencies that would be exclusive to himself begs for more proof, imho.



And you would never forget the dumbest move in your life, the one who cost Vader everything. He would know how he acted, he would take advantage of these things for sure...

This seemed to imply it. If not, my bad.

Again, tried to forget. And then again, if he fought him, he would be able to take advantage of these things. Comon, he actually WAS this person, he knows him better than anyone, even after 20 years, he must remember the time before his accident, like someone who loses his legs, he sure as hell won't forget the time he had legs, if he lost them when he was say 20.


I just meant reckless mistakes, not exactly the same one. Sorry...

The thing is, he actually spent over 20 years completely shutting out his former identity, so sure he would remember what kind of person he was, but I just don't see how he's supposed to know his former self to such a degree that others who knew Anakin wouldn't.

He didn't forget a damn thing. He did shut hims former self out, took on a new identity, got accustomed to the suit, etc, but, he couldn't forget. That's why he went back in the end.

He definitely has a significant advantage, while Anakin knows nothing about him.

Well obviously he couldn't ever forget who he used to be, that's just too damn big to forget, however I find it really hard to believe that he'd be able to retain such specific knowledge about the way he used to fight that others who knew him wouldn't know, considering that would be something he'd most likely naturally forget after 22 years, let alone 22 years where he pretty much forced himself to forget about everything regarding his former identity. I just don't see it, and disagree.

1 other question, why would Vader have a strength advantage over Anakin? Because while his mechanical limbs would be stronger than Anakin's natural physical strength, it would be much easier for Anakin to channel the force into amping up his strength through his muscles and such then it would be for Vader to do so with his artificial limbs. Is it ever actually stated or made obvious, or do people just assume so because he's a cyborg?

No matter how small or big, it's an advantage. He knew about Padme, about Sidious, about his battles to resist the dark side, he knows why Anakin joined in the first place. (Note that ROTS Anakin hasn't done it yet) He could really **** up his mind.

If you disagree, we will just leave it at that, disagreeing....

And so do many others... I wasn't ever arguing that it wasn't an advantage, but not one that others such as Obi and Yoda wouldn't share.

Obi-Wan didn't know exactly why Anakin joined the dark side, or as much info about Palpatine. Obi-Wan does have the largest advantage of all however, knowing Anakin's fighting at the back of his hand.

Well maybe he'd know more than the others about issues such as that, but when I was originally arguing the point, I was more referring to the way he used to fight and such, and not whether he'd have a psychological edge or anything. And really, I don't see how Vader's much better than Anakin when it comes to recklessness, it's not like he was the calmest and most clever fighter either, he was actually pretty reckless himself.

Vader? Maybe he was kind of reckless, but not nearly as reckless as Anakin I think.


Meh, whatever. Point is, Vader does have the pshychological advantage, and mind advantage, no matter how big or small....

He has a psychological advantage, but not enough to automatically win a battle.

Definetly not. It's an advantage though.

Ok, we have cleared that Vader has a psychological advantage, no need to argue this fact, are you listening allfg.

Originally posted by allfg
Well maybe he'd know more than the others about issues such as that, but when I was originally arguing the point, I was more referring to the way he used to fight and such, and not whether he'd have a psychological edge or anything. And really, I don't see how Vader's much better than Anakin when it comes to recklessness, it's not like he was the calmest and most clever fighter either, he was actually pretty reckless himself. Vader being as reckless as anakin ? Sorry friend the EU and highest form of canon proves you wrong

Sorry friend, his fight with the Maul poser proves you wrong.

Originally posted by allfg
Sorry friend, his fight with the Maul poser proves you wrong. Sorry friend , according to what you are so fond of speaking about. Higher canon overwrites the eu, so that means the movies disprove what you said tsk tsk tsk just when will you stop getting pwned


o yea and that "recklass" behaviour was an isolated case, Just how many times did he behave recklass throughout his life as a cyborg? Movies disproves you, novels disprove you, RODV disproves you and the EU disproves you

Vader has enough overall skill, knowledge of Anakins forms and fighting styles, and a big enough psychological advantage to beat Anakin in a duel where, he has a terrain advantage (such as on Mustafar, a hilly or rocky area, Kamino platforms, etc). However, in a closed off space, Anakin wins in a straight up duel (like the duel with Dooku).

Originally posted by Kadesh
Sorry friend , according to what you are so fond of speaking about. Higher canon overwrites the eu, so that means the movies disprove what you said tsk tsk tsk just when will you stop getting pwned


o yea and that "recklass" behaviour was an isolated case, Just how many times did he behave recklass throughout his life as a cyborg? Movies disproves you, novels disprove you, RODV disproves you and the EU disproves you

Kadesh, there's a reason why you have to be at least 13 years to post on these boards, and it's when 6 year olds such as yourself don't know what they're talking about. Movies only overwrite EU when a contradiction occurs, and the movies in no way contradict that Vader might possibly be reckless in such a situation like the one that he was in with Maul. Just because he doesn't show any reckless behavior in the movies (he probably does, I just can't be bothered to rewatch the movies to prove you wrong), it doesn't mean that he wouldn't if pushed to his limits by an actual skilled duelist, such as the Maul wanabee. The fact is, in the movies, he only ever fights old men and farmboys, and was never pushed to the point where reckless action would be necessary. I'm sure if Anakin were to fight OT Luke or Ben Kenobi, he wouldn't be pushed to pull off a reckless menouvre either like in his duel with Obi-Wan, but more likely he would curbstomp their asses in seconds.

You cant say he was reckless from what we don't see. Just how you said that Sidious couldn't be fast because he wasn't fast "on screen", and when it was said he could have been fast when we didn't see, you said that would be false...well same thing, you cant assume he is reckless during the periods that we don't get to see him, and Vader has never shown recklessness on screen or in and books I've read with him in them.

Originally posted by allfg
Kadesh, there's a reason why you have to be at least 13 years to post on these boards, and it's when 6 year olds such as yourself don't know what they're talking about. Movies only overwrite EU when a contradiction occurs, and the movies in no way contradict that Vader might possibly be reckless in such a situation like the one that he was in with Maul.
Sorry friend, its the same like saying "o vader is fast in the eu but it contradicts his slowness in the movies" as you are so keen to point out. Now its a different thing, its his recklessness. Anyways i wouldnt use the excuse of the movies to disprove what you said, i saw his fight with the dark woman, he was not recklass, and i seen many other fights with vader. That incident with maul is an isolated case.
Originally posted by allfg


The fact is, in the movies, he only ever fights old men and farmboys, and was never pushed to the point where reckless action would be necessary. I'm sure if Anakin were to fight OT Luke or Ben Kenobi, he wouldn't be pushed to pull off a reckless menouvre either like in his duel with Obi-Wan, but more likely he would curbstomp their asses in seconds. And just because of one incident where vader got recklass, it mans he would be recklass with all others? Sorry friend, though being recklass, vader still beat maul. And i have read RODV, vader was not being recklass with the fight against the jedi masters. The movies themselves proved vader is not being reckless and i reconmend you actually re-watch the OT because all it does is disproves what you said.