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I've actually always thought this (and not joking around)...

Think about it.

If music is (arguably) a reflection of the soul, heart, whatever...and it can be assumed that a soul longs to accomplish purity (as nobody really strives to be impure...addictions or psychological problems aside), then isn't it safe to say that the most accomplished music would come from a good person with a pure, healthy soul?

Of course a horrible person could still be a good technical musician, even a very expressive musician. But as far as reaching the pinnacle of writing music...wouldn't what makes music the greatest it can be, essentially be linked to what makes a person the greatest they can be (being pure)?

What do you think?

I don't think so, for one because I don'T believe in some sort of soul, and I think it is impossible to be better than someone in a moral context as you said.

Nope.

What kind of person they are matters none to me.

-AC

No. Alice in Chains vs Enigma.

Michael Jackson vs. Pete Townshend


Hehe....hehehe. He.

You came at it from a different angle.

But with excellent facilities. As had the Nazis.

They get you on the old morals rule? Nazis!

But wi...th-then what you said.

-AC

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I've actually always thought this (and not joking around)...

Think about it.

If music is (arguably) a reflection of the soul, heart, whatever...and it can be assumed that a soul longs to accomplish purity (as nobody really strives to be impure...addictions or psychological problems aside), then isn't it safe to say that the most accomplished music would come from a good person with a pure, healthy soul?

Of course a horrible person could still be a good technical musician, even a very expressive musician. But as far as reaching the pinnacle of writing music...wouldn't what makes music the greatest it can be, essentially be linked to what makes a person the greatest they can be (being pure)?

What do you think?

jimi hendrix...drug addled junkie loon...****ing amazing songs

Cliff Richard...clean living as can be...****ing rubbish songs

so no



if this was the case then i dont think many of the protest songs that have defined certain times would ever have come into being as most of them are born from anger toward a certain situation

Originally posted by jaden101
jimi hendrix...drug addled junkie loon...****ing amazing songs

Cliff Richard...clean living as can be...****ing rubbish songs

so no
As I said though...someone who you could argue has an unclean soul or whatever might still be technically amazing, expressive and creative...I'm just arguing that the "ideal" of music would include being from a pure person....technicality and creativity welcome of course!

Plus, I think your example is kinda lacking (no offence) because as far as I knew, Hendrix was a very cool cat...a sensitive and peace lovin' guy.

As far as Cliff Richard goes...there can be lots of musicians out there who are clean cut, good people...but if they have little talent...

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I've actually always thought this (and not joking around)...

Think about it.

If music is (arguably) a reflection of the soul, heart, whatever...and it can be assumed that a soul longs to accomplish purity (as nobody really strives to be impure...addictions or psychological problems aside), then isn't it safe to say that the most accomplished music would come from a good person with a pure, healthy soul?

Of course a horrible person could still be a good technical musician, even a very expressive musician. But as far as reaching the pinnacle of writing music...wouldn't what makes music the greatest it can be, essentially be linked to what makes a person the greatest they can be (being pure)?

What do you think?

I think no. Two examples being James Taylor and John Denver. Happy, folksy music that was from the heart, only they were pieces of shit, wife and drug abusing wastes of flesh.

Besides, if music is arguably a reflection, and we're left under the assumption that a soul strives to be pure, that leaves plenty of room for doubt. Not to mention those who don't write their own songs.

No you're right...that last point didn't.

I was just trying to show how people having a different ideal of music like you said, doesn't necessarily play any part in "recognizing" what I've suggested the true ideal of music is (music that comes from a good person).

Point being, if I lived an impure life devoid of love and goodness (like the dude who isn't able to recognize the ideal of the value of life), then I too wouldn't be well-suited in recognizing the ideal of music (music that refelcts a writer who is in fact a good person).

...still, I'm hard pressed to prove that the ideal of music in fact has anything to do with being a good person.

Why do you have an obsession with trying to prove factually subjective things as objective? It's impossible.

It's not just undertaking an improbable, but possible challenge. It's actually impossible.

_AC

Bob Marley wrote and sang beautiful songs about peace, understanding, and unity while being a philandering, aggressive, and intolerant man.

So, no, I don't think being a happy-clappy person is a prerequisite to making great music.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Why do you have an obsession with trying to prove factually subjective things as objective? It's impossible.

It's not just undertaking an improbable, but possible challenge. It's actually impossible.

_AC

It's the kind of stuff I like to think about.

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
Bob Marley wrote and sang beautiful songs about peace, understanding, and unity while being a philandering, aggressive, and intolerant man.

So, no, I don't think being a happy-clappy person is a prerequisite to making great music.

Sure, him and every other person who has character flaws...(kinda like what The Core said about John Denver). If anything, I'm saying that their music would be that much better (closer to what I suggest is the ideal) if those flaws were improved upon....Victory of the self translating into victory in the art.

Well, no, not really. Their life experiences have created the background for the songs they write, so to take away those you'd be left with some shit music like...oh, I don't know...Robbie Williams? Coldplay? Something akin to those travesties.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Sure, him and every other person who has character flaws...(kinda like what The Core said about John Denver). If anything, I'm saying that their music would be that much better (closer to what I suggest is the ideal) if those flaws were improved upon....Victory of the self translating into victory in the art.

Maybe. Can't say for sure, because it seems as if artists (Denver and Taylor) may use music as an escape, putting out what they want to hear or see, but know the truth. Some let it reflect how they really feel. But, without insight, who's to say. Tom Araya is Catholic, but he said himself that the music his band makes doesn't necessarily reflect his views. Classic example of nice (well, devoutly Catholic) guy who makes music that doesn't reflect his lifestyle or beliefs.

Kind of like how Belushi and Farley were FUBAR'D, but still soldiered on. If they didn't have the problems they did, something leads me to believe that they wouldn't be as dedicated to covering it up by being so outrageously funny.

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
Well, no, not really. Their life experiences have created the background for the songs they write, so to take away those you'd be left with some shit music like...oh, I don't know...Robbie Williams? Coldplay? Something akin to those travesties.
By Robbie Williams you basically mean Guy Chambers...

...and I think Coldplay are a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

Do you think they're a bad band YKF?

Chris Martin...again, being the chief songwriter...seems like a pretty swell guy, and I think a lot of people gravitate towards their music because of the beauty that's felt in it (like "The Scientist".

It's by no means what I'd argue is the ideal of music (meaning, coming from someone who has an ideal, perfect heart or soul + talent)...and neither are the people listening to it the ideal of what it means to be human...but I think good music has been created by a good person here...and the good that's in people gets attracted to that.


Plus, their enormously wide appeal I think strengthens my point...kinda like with U2.

Lots of people like a lot of different music, and each have their personal preference, but I think the thing that binds us as people (the goodness that's in all of us) makes it more probable that people with different tastes might also tend to like the music of U2 and Coldplay as well...and it's cause of these bands' ability to translate that binding element in their music.

...and of course, there could be many reasons not to be attracted to them...like not really digging their style or thinking they're not creative enough, and that might be SO unattractive to people, that it could overpower those good elements I mentioned I think are there.

Originally posted by The Core
Maybe. Can't say for sure, because it seems as if artists (Denver and Taylor) may use music as an escape, putting out what they want to hear or see, but know the truth.
Oh yeah...very much so I think. I could see a lot of artists writing out of that. But even then...we really don't know where these two stand as people...and the contradictions that exist in their lives.

A perfect example of this is Jim Morrison...if you know anything about him, he was said to be a truly sensitive, insightful, loving guy. But apart from that, he could be quite abrasive, quite vindictive, and also quite, quite loony. Having said that, it was Manzarek that carried the band musically, and Morisson lyrically (and spiritually). So, it's hard to tell with what I know about Jim how that all refelcts in the Doors' music.

You just have to know something, personally, about artists to make the distinction between good and bad. Your Chris Martin analogy was right on. He makes beautiful music, which is latched onto by "good" people. He, himself, seems to be a "good" guy. He's wealthy, has beautiful children, a successful wife. I'd be surprised to find he'd be making pretty music to cover something up.

Good, strong points, you have.

Originally posted by The Core
He makes beautiful music, which is latched onto by "good" people.
But that's not what I said...I said it's latched onto by the good IN people.

Take into consideration their fanbase, and it's virtually the same thing. I don't see hardened criminals with a little remorse giving "Speed of Sound" a spin in their cells. Naturally it's their (people's) good side that's attracted to Coldplay's music. But, like I said, considering their fanbase, it's almost one and the same.

The tittle of this post is ridiculous. the 90% of the music stars have been in troubles or in persona problems or in adictions or that kind of things. The character of a person isnt related witht the quality of his art.

Nobody knows that but the people who experience it or bring it to light.

Originally posted by bakerboy
The tittle of this post is ridiculous. the 90% of the music stars have been in troubles or in persona problems or in adictions or that kind of things. The character of a person isnt related witht the quality of his art.
A lot have...don't know about %90...and I'm not talking about music stars necessarily. I'm just talking about any musician writing better music by being a better person (given there is the technical ability and talent there).

Even still, as I said earlier, someone like Bob Marley who as you say did have troubles or personal problems, still had a lot to offer because of how true he was to his causes and the good qualities he did have...and he might've been able to offer more in a musically rich sense (as I've described it) had he improved on his character flaws. That's all I'm saying.

It seems to me like you just have a random, possible idea, and are exploring it with no empirical backing.

Which artists exactly would point towards this phenomenon?

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Which artists exactly would point towards this phenomenon?
It's not about any artists in particular. As I said with Marley...

"...and he might've been able to offer more in a musically rich sense (as I've described it) had he improved on his character flaws. That's all I'm saying."

...it could always be better....That's what I'm proposing.

...apart from just improving technically.

The only thing I can liken it to is confidence and a golf swing, where a lack of confidence could have you second guessing, off focus, and could affect your game drastically.

In the same sense, I'm proposing an unclear conscience would interfere with accessing what I think is the most important part of reaching the pinnacle of song writing...the connection to a good heart or soul within a given artist.

The better the person...the clearer the conscience...the better the music. Because I think music is at it's best when it reflects what defines people at their best...goodness, love, purity etc...

No.

R.Kelly had sex with an under-aged girl on the internet, but I still think he's an excellent R&B vocalist. That one thing about him won't stop me from bumping his jams.

I'm also a huge fan of gangsta rap....and I won't even go there.

What a musician does in his life is his business, and doesn't influence whether I like his music or not.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
What a musician does in his life is his business, and doesn't influence whether I like his music or not.
...and what does that have to do with them possibly making better music (as I'm suggesting they could)?

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
By Robbie Williams you basically mean Guy Chambers...

...and I think Coldplay are a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

Do you think they're a bad band YKF?

Generally, I feel they are like wet bread, although I have tapped my toes to the odd song of theirs.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Chris Martin...again, being the chief songwriter...seems like a pretty swell guy, and I think a lot of people gravitate towards their music because of the beauty that's felt in it (like "The Scientist".

It's by no means what I'd argue is the ideal of music (meaning, coming from someone who has an ideal, perfect heart or soul + talent)...and neither are the people listening to it the ideal of what it means to be human...but I think good music has been created by a good person here...and the good that's in people gets attracted to that.


Plus, their enormously wide appeal I think strengthens my point...kinda like with U2.

Lots of people like a lot of different music, and each have their personal preference, but I think the thing that binds us as people (the goodness that's in all of us) makes it more probable that people with different tastes might also tend to like the music of U2 and Coldplay as well...and it's cause of these bands' ability to translate that binding element in their music.

...and of course, there could be many reasons not to be attracted to them...like not really digging their style or thinking they're not creative enough, and that might be SO unattractive to people, that it could overpower those good elements I mentioned I think are there.

I find it a little weird talking about the boys from Coldplay being 'good people' as I don't really have any idea what they are like other than the occasional sound-bite on TV. Maybe they're really evil f*ckers who just like to sing optimistic and melancholy songs. Then again, they could just be moderately 'good' people who occasionally do some 'bad' things, but prefer to write songs about the 'good' stuff.

I just don't agree with the statement: "Good people make better music", as history is littered with so many examples that argue to the contrary. Also, I'm never really interested in the personal lives of the bands I listen to; it's just not an important consideration of mine.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
...and what does that have to do with them possibly making better music (as I'm suggesting they could)?

Of course it is a possibility, it just seems like there is no reason to believe it.