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We've had threads like this in the past...but there old and out of sight...May is approaching and its time to rehash things....see what's on everyone's minds.....

this is where we can talk about Jack, Elizabeth, that darn compass and all the quotes - included and deleted - uttered by the supporting casts that surround the Sparrabeth Theory....

I'll start....

here is deleted line from COTBP....when Barbossa and Jack are talking on the Pearl...


BARBOSSA (CONT'D)
Pintel ... set sail. If this fool plan
is to work, we'll need the medallion,
and that means catching the ship which
brought 'em here.

Jack is caught completely off guard. For the first time,
his smile fades.

JACK
What -- you don't have the medallion?

BARBOSSA
That fool woman took it. You be
careful around her, Jack -- she's
pretty enough, she'll steal your
heart -- but pure evil inside.

JACK
I'll watch my back.

BARBOSSA
Bosun! Set up Mr. Sparrow's quarters,
nice and fine ... in the brig.
(to Jack, a smile)
Meaning no disrespect, of course.

Jack nods, and is taken away. Barbossa stares after him,
not hiding his mistrust.

Gosh...this is foreshadowing if there ever was one....is this had been left in COTBP....what fun they could have with this in AWE when Barbossa confronts Liz and Jack about just exactly what is going on between them....

i bought a book that is like a walk through of curse of the black pearl and it says barbossa and Jack are both attracted to her but they know she can be dangerous

Originally posted by a-k-a-amber
i bought a book that is like a walk through of curse of the black pearl and it says barbossa and Jack are both attracted to her but they know she can be dangerous

OH WOW WHAT BOOK IS THIS MATE????

ewww.....I don't want Barbossa to be attracted to her...now he is too old for her....by a long shot....

Here's another scene that never made it into the movie..more J/E moments that were done away with....


Elizabeth jumps up, silver platter in hand, ready to swing
-Jack catches her before she can do any damage. They
recognize each other.

ELIZABETH
You?!

JACK
Me!

ELIZABETH
You're in league with Barbossa!

JACK
No, I'm -- rescuing you.

Elizabeth can't comprehend that one.

ELIZABETH
You?!

Will gains his footing in the rubble.

WILL
Miss Swann! We're here to rescue
you!
(sounds of pursuit,
approaching)
It's going badly!

JACK
This way!

They race off, toward a bit of moonlight

Okay..here's more...Katelovespirate has posted this before...way back when...but I'm posting it again..present day thread....More honest Jack displayed here...

EXT. ISLA DE MUERTE - CLEARING - NIGHT

The three race through the rocks, the sounds of pursuit
close behind. Suddenly Jack stops.

ELIZABETH
Come on!

JACK

No. This won't work.
(a quick decision)
I'll stay behind, and fight them.
You go on.

Will and Elizabeth stare at him.

WILL
No.

JACK
I'll lead them away.

The sounds are closer.

JACK (CONT'D)
Go to the opposite end of the
island, and signal the ship. I'll
keep 'em busy.

WILL
Are you sure? Jack -- this is not
something you have to do.

JACK
I'm sure. When you've led the kind
of life I have, there are debts
that must be paid. Maybe I can
balance the scales a little.

Will nods, hesitates... gives Jack his sword - - now Jack
has two, ..one for each hand. Elizabeth gives him a quick
kiss.

Will and Elizabeth race away, and are gone.

Jack watches them for a moment, turns to face the pirates.
He sticks the two swords in the ground, crossed. Leans
casually against a rock.

A group of pirates round a corner, cutlasses drawn, ready
to fight -- but Jack raises his hand.

JACK (CONT'D)
I invoke the right of parlay,
according to the Code of the
Brethren, set down by the pirates
Morgan and Bartholomew...


And Elizabeth gave Jack a quick kiss...Will gave him his sword...and Jack so manly...I love how they say...he leans casually against the rock..I can so see that...I bet that would be very sexy looking...

I know why they left this out though.....they wanted the audience and Will and Liz to be guessing what Jack was really about...if they left this scene it...it would have been pretty obvious that Jack is a good and honest man..and not all Pirate....

that is true...Because in DMC we been wanting more of Who Jack really is deep down inside.....That why DMC is became the most beggest movie in history....

Too bad that was all left out. But it had to be for obvious reasons. The audience would have been confused on who Elizabeth was/should be with. Since the movie was supposed to be a stand alone, they had to cut the J/E out, and keep it bare minimum.

But isn't it interesting that if you piece together their deleted scenes, and add this in, it makes you think TnT wanted J/E all along? But maybe Gore, or Bruckeimer told them to keep it W/E and keep it simple. But then they suddenly get two sequels, and they even said that they went back into CoTBP and pulled out whatever they could - J/E viola!

Now...we have the opening of POTC...with young Elizabeth singing the Pirate song "yo-ho a Pirate's life for me".....and at the end we have Jack singing it as he sails away on the Pearl....smiling....Elizabeth taught him the song.....he wouldn't know it had he not learned it from her when they were marooned on the island together....

At the beginning of DMC we have an obviously distressed Elizabeth...crying and drenched in rain...at the end of DMC we have an obviously distressed Liz...crying and drenched in dirt and grime....

at the end of POTC...Jack's last words to Elizabeth..."Elizabeth, it would never have worked between us, Darling, I'm sorry"
at the end of DMC...Elizabeth's last words to Jack..."it's after you, not us, this is the only way, don't you see...I'm not sorry".....

the compass....it's introduced in POTC...as a compass that doesn't point north....it points towards the Isle De Muerta....and the Aztec Gold....

there's very little emphasis put on it...except that Jack keeps it with him at all times...its' one of his prized possessions...and he is seen holding it at the end...looks at it and says "now show me that horizon"....

Then in DMC...it's the centerpeice of everything that goes on.....WE first see the compass when Jack is holding it and Gibbs asks him if we have a heading...and we realize somethings not right....Jack can't seem to figure out what direction they need to head...the compass isn't working...

Then we learn that Beckett wants the compass....he wants Will to negotiate with Jack ...to get Jack to return to Port Royal with the compass.....

Then we see Jack in his cabin with the infamous compass....he keeps tapping it...and seems to be quite frustrated at it....(right here, it is implied by t and t that it is pointing to Port Royal...but they decided not to show that)....and then he says.."Why is the rum always gone"...and you immediately think of his time on the island with Elizabeth when he says "but why is the rum gone?"....so it's becoming a littel more obvious that Jack has Elizabeth on his mind.....

in DMC in the script says her true heart is the same as his so that must mean something.

Also Jack must really trust liz because in COTBP Jack wouldn't even let Cotton look at it over his shoulder and how Jack always keeps it with him and no one has ever used it until Jack gave it to liz for her to borrow and find the chest. I know you think he only gave it to her becasue he couldn't find his owne heading but instead of giving it to her he could of given it to Gibbs or marty i mean they were complaining that Jack hasn't done some true pirating. Here is another thing Jack has done to show he really cares for lizzie. <3

squee!

Jack loves women, but he has never been so emotionally attracted to a girl like Liz.

Right...Jack has the compass.....when Will is captured on Cannibal Island...he says...Jack, I need your compass...and then again on the Pearl after they escape the Cannibals...he tells Jack...I need your compass....

then they go to Tia's cabin and she says..."The compass you bartered from me, it cannot lead you to this (refering to the key)"....then Jack says "Maybe, Why?"...and then Tia smiles and says "Ah, Jack Sparrow don't know what he want. Or do know, but is loathed to claim it as his own.".....Well, we now know that what jack wants ...but is loathed to claim as his own..is Elizabeth.....

Okay...and the next compass scene...in the Tortuga Tavern....we see Jack in the background of Gibbs...looking at the compass and saying "i know what I want, I know what I want'..then getting very aggravated with it..cause...either it's not working, or or..it's pointing to something he doens't want to want....

Jackismyboo...you are right....it's sooo telling of how much Jack thinks of Liz...that he is willing to hand over that Compass to her...Jack doesn't give up his possessions lightly...or to just anybody....and he lets Liz hold onto his compass...I love the way he places it in her hands....when they are reunited on the Pearl in Tortuga..first time they've seen each other since he told her.."it would never have worked between us, darling"...

oh yeah...and the compass is the centerpeice for the DVD layout...when you go to Play on the menu...you see Jack at his desk tapping on that compass..and then it spins to the compass.....

Yeah, I noticed that. I wish I could see Jack toss his compass aside and just maddly kiss Elizabeth instead lol.

exactly...toss that compass aside and kiss her madly, passionately...that would be so hot..

was just watching the DMC commentary....it's the scene in Tia's cabin where they go to find the whereabouts of the key...and T and T say that there is a connection between the fact that Jack is the one that says its a woman what vexes men most...because it relates to his own situation, the fact that Jack himself is being vexed by a woman.......

okay....so if POTC is not a love story..not a romance...then what's it really all about....think about it....the first POTC is all about how Will is on a mission to save the girl he loves....and at the end...it's sealed with a kiss....and throughout this movie..there is Jack ...and there is an attraction between him and Elizabeth...but it's not entirely played out....

Then in DMC...a wedding is interupted...or actually fate intervenes....and they are off to find Jack...and the scene where Jack trades Will to DAvy...they talk about love...in the commentary T and T say that Jack knows enough about Davy Jones to know that his weakness is Love..and you can see the heartbreak in Davy's eyes....and as DMC unfolds...we realize that Jack himself is becoming vunerable to the subject of LOVE.....and the ending...is sealed with a kiss.....

So, if that's not romance...what is....the whole reason their is so much heartbreak going on...is because of love...

okay....in the commnetaries...they are at the tavern in Tortuga recruiting the 99 souls...and just as they go into that scene T and T are talking about how Elizabeth hijacks a ship without firing a shot and who does that sound like.....

Jack's conflict is that....he wants Elizabeth, but he doesn't want to want Elizabeth...and that's causing the compass not work...

Here is where they say that if they had played it where the Compass was pointing to Elizabeth..then he would know right here that Elizabeth was on her way...but they didn't play it that way...so he in fact does not realize that Elizabeth is nearby.....

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
was just watching the DMC commentary....it's the scene in Tia's cabin where they go to find the whereabouts of the key...and T and T say that there is a connection between the fact that Jack is the one that says its a woman what vexes men most...because it relates to his own situation, the fact that Jack himself is being vexed by a woman.......

GAH! Just admit it already! Just KISS ALREADY!! Just... dump Will at an island with swordswomen so he'll be happy, then let Jack and Liz get together already!!!!

When Elizabeth hits Norrington over the head with the bottle..T and T say it is foreshadowing what Elizabeth is willing to do to save herself and someone she cares about...and that she can in fact turn on one of her own...to do what must be done to get out of a tight spot....

okay....on the scene...with Norrington's sword..they say they are tracking the sword that Will made for Norrington at the request of Gov. Swann..and it will continued to be tracked throughout the third movie...soo.....that Sword has some sort of Destiny with it...or why else would they focus on it.....is Will going to stab the heart with the knife his father gave him...or will it be with the sword he made for Norrington....or will that sword be use for some other purpose...I hope its not foreshadowing that Norrington meets his death by use of the sword that was made for him....and I hope Will's not on the other end of that sword...what does anyone else think...what is the significance of them tracking the Norrington Sword made by Will......

Ah...this trilogy is so confusing and deep.....they keep talking about Freedom and Liberty...and how free are you really....you may be free physically..but are you really free....Like Gov. swann...he's been freed from the shackles...but he's not really free...he must play by Beckett's rules....and he sold something he hoped never to sale...

so...they say that on the island...that the compass has been pointing to the chest the whole time...but for some reason....Elizabeth (and the audience) thinks that the compass is pointing to Jack....she feels she has betrayed Will......so, Elizabeth thinks the compass points to Jack...and that's what is really important....and why does she thinks it points to Jack..because she wants Jack...she's suppose to be focused on finding the chest to save Will...but she is preoccupied with thoughts of jack at the same time...but then T and T point out...that Elizabeth has the compass...and the thing she wants most in the world is to find the chest of Davy Jones so they can save Will...and they have found the chest.....

okay...and that darn compass thing in the longboat...One of them says that he thinks the compass pointed toward Land....and then the other one says...that he thinks it pointed to where its been pointing for Jack the whole time..it never changes for Jack Sparrow..i think the whole movie it's pointed directly to..well, I want say..he says......Interesting..well, we know it's Elizabeth..because they've eluded to that the entire commentary....

their exact wording in the commentary about the kiss...would she have been as severe on Jack had she not been so tempted by him....to both slack her lust and drown her guilt....if Jack is dead...he is no longer a temptation..It's funny how months ago before the DVD was released we said that exact thing on here...and there were some that came on here and told us that that was rediculous...you woudlnt' kill someone simply because you wanted to resist temptation..and that's exactly what they are saying here.....

I know we've discussed all this before...but I can't help myself...I'm into analyzing and rehashing this past week....I so need AWE to come out and put an end to all of this suspense....

they say that TIa Dalma has a real stake in making sure Jack stays alive..so she would have been tracking his every move....we will find out why later...as in movie 3....

I had no idea about that. *gasp* Where did you get this?

Originally posted by Chiki Mina
I had no idea about that. *gasp* Where did you get this?

It's all spelled out...or talked out..in the DVD Commentary of Ted and Terry...I finally sat down and actually listened to it this morning...and I never had before..just bits and peices...this time I listened to parts I had not before.....and picked up on some really interesting things...

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
their exact wording in the commentary about the kiss...would she have been as severe on Jack had she not been so tempted by him....to both slack her lust and drown her guilt....if Jack is dead...he is no longer a temptation..It's funny how months ago before the DVD was released we said that exact thing on here...and there were some that came on here and told us that that was rediculous...you woudlnt' kill someone simply because you wanted to resist temptation..and that's exactly what they are saying here.....

I know we've discussed all this before...but I can't help myself...I'm into analyzing and rehashing this past week....I so need AWE to come out and put an end to all of this suspense....

First of all just wanted to bump this up where it deserves to be and secondly EXACTLY! we ( by we I mean lovelyone) said that thing about the dress sinking too! ANd I distinctly remember someone saying the thing about the compass on the island and comparing it to having a compass in the north pole where it just spins around and that's very close to what is happening. isn't it?

Everyone said we where over analyzing! We said that the almost kiss meant lizzie really wants Jack and so did T&T!!!! I loved watching the commentary because it was like we'd been doing homework for over 4-5 months and than getting an A cause we were totally RIGHT!!!!!!!

good work everyone. i love looking back at this stuff. so much fun.

It still surprises me a bit that the ending hasnt leaked yet. I thought we would know by now...

i don't think we'll know the ending until...sometime in May...I'm hoping...I don't want to know the real ending....until it's time....

Hi there! First post, everyone.. Just call me 'Blue'. Been a lurker for about a week and thought I'd throw in my 2 cents

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone noticed Jack looking Elizabeth up and down when he says ".. it points to the thing you want most *looks lizzie up and down*.. in this world".

Yeah, I noticed that too !

Does Tia have a stake in Jack coming out alive because she thinks he will be the one to stop Davy Jones or somehow return him back to the state he was in before he took out his heart? That would be horrible if she feels Jack will be the one to stab the heart and Will has a touch of destiny because he is the one who will have to save Jack.

No, the reason Tia needs Jack is not connected to Jack stabbing the heart...at least not that I've heard.


SPOILERS ABOUT NORRINGTON>>>>DO NOT READ IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


**Norrington's sword is linked to his death, but I don't believe he gets stabbed with it. **


However, why it remains until nearly the last scene in the film is a bit of a mystery to me, so I'm hoping it's a good thing.


**As in, James is coming back. But I dunno for sure.**


I know, I know you all are so hopeful about J/E, and although it's mean of me to keep pointing it out, that script of CotBP where they clearly establish more of a love pyramid ( a bit of Norrington included in that!!!! ), they set it up so that Elizabeth chooses from the three men present, and er...it isn't Jack.


What is clear to me is that TnT wanted to establish a true love pyramid, and set up doubt in whom Elizabeth would choose. There isn't a hesitation on her part at all in that script.


And in DMC, the commentary there are a few lines that can't entirely be ignored are these (not the exact quotes, since I don't have the commentary written down :P ): "What doesn't get debated much is how much Elizabeth weighs Will life into her actions." and also, "We decided the only way for Elizabeth to kiss Jack and for it to remain true to the characters was to have Will's life be at stake".


I can't help it; I can't just let you all work yourself up to J/E stuff only to be disappointed when AWE comes out. Better to deal with the disappointment now rather than to have the movie ruined half-way through for you.

Omg Im sooo dissapointed

Good Grief, they could've put her to take a damn sword to make Jack stay. Instead they decided to torture us into making it a hot kiss. And I do know what happens to Norrington. No spoilers there *shrugs*.

It's ok Chiki...just let it all out now so you can enjoy AWE.

I can't help it; I can't just let you all work yourself up to J/E stuff only to be disappointed when AWE comes out. Better to deal with the disappointment now rather than to have the movie ruined half-way through for you

~~~~~~~~~~

You reek of bullshit! Concerned for JEers feelings my ass. LOL

Another poster, another agenda...

I need to play the world's smallest violin

While I still believe there is a ton of evidence for a J/E pairing, Surreal is right that some of this stuff just needs to be thrown out either because it's making something out of nothing or it's just too confusing like the damn compass. Kate was talking about the Tia Dalma scene earlier and it got me thinking and we really need to throw out the "a woman" thing even if the writers comment on it.

LovelyOne and others said earlier everyone answers the question, "What vexes all men" with what vexes them. Even though plenty of things are vexing Will, he doesn't answer. Gibbs tries first with "the sea," Pintel/Ragetti (I get them confused) says, "sums," and the other, cuter one says, "the dichotomy of good and evil." Jack finally gets frustrated and tells them "a woman," which is clearly the right answer. People say Jack knows it because a woman is vexing him at the moment. But there are some counters to this I'm interested in sharing.

1. If everyone is guessing, why the hell would Gibbs say, "the sea?" He's a freakin' encyclopedia when it comes to the sea and it doesn't confuse/vex him at all. Also, Gibbs argues with Tia and says he had always heard Davy Jones fell in love with the sea. He's not guessing here. He's sharing what he's heard before. That means there is a possibility other characters (Jack) aren't guessing based on what vexes them.

2. Jack has heard the story before! As people have analyzed, he's not there to gain information about Davy. He's there for Will's benefit and also to see if Tia can help him with his black spot issue. He knows the story and is beginning to think Tia's retelling of it is a waste of time. There doesn't HAVE to be a woman involved, even though there is.

3. Okay, I'm a woman and a woman was not vexing me when I went to go see the movie, but when Tia asked the question, I thought to myself, "a woman." It's kind of a common sense answer, and I think if Jack were real, he'd be smarter than me, so if I got it right, he should get it right.

4. Will should be pretty vexed. Liz is in jail about to hang and he's been here, there, and everywhere looking for Jack who is less than eager to help him. Notice Jack just doesn't hand over the compass and wish him luck. So a lot should be vexing Will, yet he doesn't attempt an answer. He's the ONLY ONE THERE TO GAIN INFORMATION. Everyone else has already heard it, or is just a member of the crew. This is only new to Will, so he's the only one who should really be making an educated guess.

Any thoughts?

*facepalm*

Come on guys, you're going to let Surreal get you down of all people? She didn't post anything we didn't already know from the commentary. No one here denies Willabeth and their connection, but God forbid a Willabether or a anti-JEer acknowledges anything positive about Jack and Elizabeth. But hey, I guess if the wrtiers want to make CotBP part two, they can go for a cheesy Willabeth ending.

TnT don't waste scenes, and they sure as hell don't throw things into movies without thinking it through. There is no doubt that Elizabeth is vexing Jack and his compass. To even think that it was Will that is actually vexed is ludicrious at this point. Sorry guys.

And futhermore if you think that JE is going to be railroaded over and forgotten after all that has happened, you're kidding yourself.

Also, Gibbs mentioned on how something has Jack vexed. So he couldn't say a woman in Tia's hut..?

Also on the "woman" thing. My first answer that came to mind was a woman. "What vexes all men?" I don't think treassure or the sea could make a man so, umm, how should I put it...so lost in thought-just not being himself. Jack hasn't been himself since that day he left Port Royal. Proof has it when Gibbs mentions on how they have been waiting for something more "shiny" for a while.

So this has been buggin' Jack for quiet a while. To have a woman vex him like that, that could last maybe a year since he left port royal must mean something. If he could've want her as a pleassurable company in his cabin, he could've moved on and sleep with any other wench. But I doubt Jack had Liz in his mind because he wants to bed her. A feeling like that is not being vexed and it certainly can't be something to last a year or two.

Oh, and I agree, willo

Exactly what I'm saying. Let's throw away the piddly evidence and talk about the huge pieces of evidence. I'm not saying Will is vexed or that should be a focal point. I'm saying that piece of evidence needs to be thrown out because it's small and doesn't really apply to the story that much. Will SHOULD be vexed, but he's NOT. Jack IS vexed, but that's not really influencing the conversation I was talking about. All I'm saying is that J/E does not dominate every scene. These movies are about other things, too, and you can't find J/E in every line, every scene, unless you're specifically looking for it.

So to once again prove I'm a J/E shipper, I will agree with you and say there should be no doubt in anyone's mind it's Lizzie bugging the hell out of Jack. "Jack Sparrow doesn't know what he wants. Or maybe he do, but he loathe to claim it for his own." T&T say the same thing: he wants Liz but does not want to want her.

AND....

They say during the kiss that even though they decided to throw in a situation where Liz would kiss Jack to save Will, they do say Liz somewhat admits she has feelings for Jack to him when she leans in for another, only to catch herself at the last minute.

Yes I know that as well. I've heard/read the commentary multiple times, practically have it memorized, and I'm not saying every scene is J/E. I know it's not. I acknowledge Willabeth. I'm just saying it's like damn you let Surreal come here and almost treat her word as gospel or something. Can't you see she's baiting you?

Nevermind. I've seen her on other boards...

I'll just be quiet...carry on

Look, I'm a Sparrabether, no doubt about it. But, when you really look into this movie, is really about the exciting, wonderful lives of pirates. That's why it's called Pirates of the Caribbean. Sure, they have love scenes, but this whole movie isn't surrounded by Jack and Liz or Will and Liz.

Is really seeing on how pirates face the challenges of their everyday lives as pirates and how they survive.

"Yes I know that as well. I've heard/read the commentary multiple times, practically have it memorized, and I'm not saying every scene is J/E. I know it's not. I acknowledge Willabeth. I'm just saying it's like damn you let Surreal come here and almost treat her word as gospel or something. Can't you see she's baiting you?

Nevermind. I've seen her on other boards...

I'll just be quiet...carry on"------ludagurl3d


What the hell? It's a movie and this is a message board. No one's "baiting" anyone. I enjoy debating with Surreal, that's all. I don't want to kick her out because she interprets the movie differently than I do. Sometimes I agree with her, most of the time I don't. All she was saying is that as far as romance goes, COTBP was structured completely different than DMC, which is true. If people are going to get mad at people for having differing opinions about A MOVIE then they just need to get over it.

I'm not mad at her, and I know people have different opinions, and I know the movie is not all about romance. I've said that several times as well.

Maybe since I've had bad experiences with her before, I'm biased.'

oh well.

Surreal can come here and post whatever the hell she wants. Except her slash fantasies (sorry). Even at times is really annoying *shrugs* she must think the same about me too. But I really don't care.

I like the challenge, its great excersise for the mind. Besides, all of us has different opinions.

Okay, so back to what I had posted since the subject of the thread is discussing the confusion the compass brings into the J/E relationship, any more thoughts? Anyone?

Well my first thought about the compass is: " To hell with it!"
It brings alot of confusion between ships and even TnT can't agree on their compass dispute. Also, I wanted to point something in both DMC and COTBP. In DMC it shows the music papers flying aways from the wind/rain. Notice on how there's a deleted scene when Jack rescues Liz, "the winds of change", and the music papers are also flying--in the delted scene. These takes place when theres a "change in the wind" when Jack shows up...and in DMC, after Liz's doomed wedding, Jack shows up. Fate intervenes anyone?

Any thoughts?

Music is an interesting point. Other than the singing and the great theme music, I didn't really pay attention to that.

Yeah me either. I noticed this when I was making my JE video and just noticed that theres a deleted scene where the music lyrics were flying away, like DMC. Maybe it means nothing, but it's kind of funny and I really don't want to overlook that.

Originally posted by Surreal_44
No, the reason Tia needs Jack is not connected to Jack stabbing the heart...at least not that I've heard.


SPOILERS ABOUT NORRINGTON>>>>DO NOT READ IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


**Norrington's sword is linked to his death, but I don't believe he gets stabbed with it. **


However, why it remains until nearly the last scene in the film is a bit of a mystery to me, so I'm hoping it's a good thing.


**As in, James is coming back. But I dunno for sure.**


I know, I know you all are so hopeful about J/E, and although it's mean of me to keep pointing it out, that script of CotBP where they clearly establish more of a love pyramid ( a bit of Norrington included in that!!!! ), they set it up so that Elizabeth chooses from the three men present, and er...it isn't Jack.


What is clear to me is that TnT wanted to establish a true love pyramid, and set up doubt in whom Elizabeth would choose. There isn't a hesitation on her part at all in that script.


And in DMC, the commentary there are a few lines that can't entirely be ignored are these (not the exact quotes, since I don't have the commentary written down :P ): "What doesn't get debated much is how much Elizabeth weighs Will life into her actions." and also, "We decided the only way for Elizabeth to kiss Jack and for it to remain true to the characters was to have Will's life be at stake".


I can't help it; I can't just let you all work yourself up to J/E stuff only to be disappointed when AWE comes out. Better to deal with the disappointment now rather than to have the movie ruined half-way through for you.

that script is very old....and they didn't play that out....did they? and I know what you'll say...they didn't play out some of those scenes we've mentioned on here before..but that's okay...Besides, even if she chose Will back then..things have changed...as they do in every day life....I can tell you from experience....love changes...and sometimes you can think you're madly in love with someone...and then something or someone comes along and you discover that what you thought was love wasn't love at all....see what I'm saying....and besides Surreal....you can say whatever you want...I'll be j/e forever....and even if the makers of this movie or silly enough to pass on an opportune moment...I'll always have DMC to fantazise about...and besides...I'm still holding on to the fact that Disney is marketing Mickey and Minnie as Jack and Elizabeth....and they are being sold together in a combo pack...why is she with Jack..and not Will...why isn't she being marketed as Daisy along with Donald as Will...hummm?????


I think we are going to find in AWE...that her heart truly lies with Jack....

Amen to that, lovethemtigers. Brings back bitter, sad memories...

Willo..I understand what you are saying...but you don't think the line about being vexed doesn't mean anything....well....of course, I do....I mean after listening to the commentary there is no doubt that T and T want us to know that Jack is being vexed by Elizabeth....and that his compass isn't working because he wants Elizabeth but he doesn't want to want her...and I don't think the wanting is just sexual...i think it's much more than that..cuz yeah...if it were just sexual...come on it's been a year since he's seen the mere slip of a girl...he would have been over that by now...it's much deeper than sex....

and the thing about Jack responding ...a woman.....I only brought that up cuz ted and terry say that..they say it's interesting that jack was the one to respond a woman..since he's the one being vexed by a woman...

^^^^and it reflects back to when Marty says "have you noticed the Captain has been acting strange - er lately?"
And Gibbs responds, "eh, setting sail without a heading....somethings got Jack vexed and believe me whatever bodes ill for jack sparrow bodes ill for us all..."

And notice when Tia asks what vexes men most and Jack finally answers A woman..notice Gibbs reaction

yeah, my post was similar like what you said^

If Jack just wanted sex from Liz, he could've released all that with a wench and moved on with his life. But being vexed is different than being just horny. You can't be horny over a woman for a year or two. Jack must've been really vexed ever since he left Port Royal. It has to be something that really impacted him.

^^^i agree....Liz is very different for Jack...and I think it makes him even sexier...the thought that he has finally been affected by a woman....I like it..

And .....the way Keira portrayed Elizabeth....the looks she gave Jack....Elizabeth seems to be very affected by jack...too.....

I think that's one of the reasons she looks even more pissed with Beckett as she leaves the room ...he's just pointed out something to her..that she had hoped no one would ever notice...and she also gets a little peeved with Norrington when he confronts her about jack...

Yes and after he left Port Royal he seemed to kind be on the DL cause even Gibbs says to Jack"it just seems that its time that we did a bit of Honest Pirating." <---something like that! So something definately impacted Jack if he's just been sailing waters and not doing Piratey things!

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
^^^i agree....Liz is very different for Jack...and I think it makes him even sexier...the thought that he has finally been affected by a woman....I like it..

And .....the way Keira portrayed Elizabeth....the looks she gave Jack....Elizabeth seems to be very affected by jack...too.....

I think that's one of the reasons she looks even more pissed with Beckett as she leaves the room ...he's just pointed out something to her..that she had hoped no one would ever notice...and she also gets a little peeved with Norrington when he confronts her about jack...

exactly she's starting to see that her feelings are not only obvious to her but are now becoming more Obvious to others!! It was kind of a wake up call for Liz!!!

Originally posted by Too_Blue
Hi there! First post, everyone.. Just call me 'Blue'. Been a lurker for about a week and thought I'd throw in my 2 cents

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone noticed Jack looking Elizabeth up and down when he says ".. it points to the thing you want most *looks lizzie up and down*.. in this world".

yes...we have said that....He looks down at her lips..or downward glance....as he says..."it points to the thing you want most in this world"...and her reaction is kind of a shy look like she knows what he is implying and then she says "ah, jack are you telling the truth?" and he says "every word, luv"....

and he also gives her a quick once over when he first realizes she is Elizabeth...when he turn to her and says "Elizabeth"...and then back to Gibbs "hide the rum"....

I was thinking about this today as I was driving from work...as I do most days...I was just wondering....other than the deleted Peas in a Pod scene does Jack refer to Elizabeth as "luv" in any other conversation...I think DMC is where he first starts calling her Luv alot....the first time being the one I just mentioned...when he sayd "every word, luv".

and then in the Persuade me scene..."a very discomforting notion, luv"...

and then their last scene together..."we're not free yet, luv"...

and how about darling...

at the end of POTC he says..."Elizabeth, it would never have worked between us, Darling, I'm sorry."

and then the first time he sees her in DMC...
after he says "these clothes do not flatter you at'll it should be a dress or nothing, I happen to have no dress in my cabin..." She says, "Jack, where's Will, I know he came to find you."..then he says....
"Darling, I'm truly unhappy to have to tell you this, but..."

and of course the latest pet name for her "LIzzie" comes from the Marriage scene....
when he says..."YOu know...(clears his throat) Lizzie...I am Captain of a ship, and being Captain of a ship, I could in fact perform a Marriage....Right here, right on this deck, right now."

During the curiostiry converstation he calls her Dearie..but that's just funny......"do tell, Dearie"..

and his last endearment.."Pirate"....

lol, I usually annaylize while I'm in my break at work or when my professor is blabing like the adults from charlie brwon (cua cua cua).

Great point, lovethemtigers.



Funny on how Lizzie said at the end of DMC when she chains Jack "This is the only way, don't you see?I'm not sorry"

Originally posted by Chiki Mina
lol, I usually annaylize while I'm in my break at work or when my professor is blabing like the adults from charlie brwon (cua cua cua).

Great point, lovethemtigers.



Funny on how Lizzie said at the end of DMC when she chains Jack "This is the only way, don't you see?I'm not sorry"

i know...i love your new siggy....are you still going to make me one???Pretty Please...i've never had one...

I was just about to ask you! Just now! I just downloaded photoshop in my lap top.

Ok, what do you want. You want them looking at eachother? Tell me what you want, an idea.

yes...I want the one of them looking all stoic walking on the beach..and something of them from either the kiss of death scene..or the curiosity scene...and something about how they will fight, conquer and love together as Pirates...and perhaps a snap of the compass....i don't know just anything showing the tortured love of Jack and Elizabeth...ya know....thank you so much....

Similar like the one I have? The one where they are walking on the beach?

Yeah I see what you're getting at. I got an idea .

okay....anything you think would look great....I could almost just cry when I look at the new pics coming out of AWE...you can almost feel the forbidden love...do you get what I mean????

Oh yes! Look at this pic. Liz is so close to Jack...

By the way I'll get your siggy and avi ready by tomorow

Oh thank you...thank you....I love that book cover..yes,,Jack and Liz seem like a couple...cause they are side by side...facing the same direction....and Will's just sort of..there...

gosh, they all look so good on that cover!!

im so skeepy. i havent slept in days. and i fuess is working. good night

hehe g'night!

Lovethemtigers, we should have counted the pet names a long time ago! I'm curious to see just how many times he uses them in both movies. I just disagree with T&T about the importance of the whole vexing thing. I think they should have talked more about J/E in other parts. It seemed like they were going to say something really important and then Norrington comes into Tortuga and the other goes, "Shh! It's Jack Davenport!" Which is hysterical and great, but I really wanted to know what the other was about to say.

PS: Great Sig, Chiki.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Lovethemtigers, we should have counted the pet names a long time ago! I'm curious to see just how many times he uses them in both movies. I just disagree with T&T about the importance of the whole vexing thing. I think they should have talked more about J/E in other parts. It seemed like they were going to say something really important and then Norrington comes into Tortuga and the other goes, "Shh! It's Jack Davenport!" Which is hysterical and great, but I really wanted to know what the other was about to say.

PS: Great Sig, Chiki.

yeah...I know....it is frustrating how they cut to "ah, jack davenport" and the one interupts what the other was going go say about j and e....

I know...love the pet names....but think about it...I've racked my brain...does he call her any other pet name in POTC besides these three times (one of which is a deleted scene - and the first one is not really a pet name)

"Gentleman, milady, you will always remember this as the day that you almost captured, Captain jack Sparrow"

"Elizabeth, it would have never worked between us, Darling, I'm sorry"

"Peas in a Pod, luv"....

this is a great video on youtube which is a summary of both movies...shown in sequence....it's very cool...no words, just intrusmental...and watching it like this...it is so evident what is going on......no explanations needed...watch it and you will see....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7prGzMI170

Welll...based on everything we know...it would have been suicide had Jack just handed over the compass to Will...he knows without the compass he can't find the key or the chest and thus save his life...he's trying to escape his death.....in Davy's Locker....

Also, on the DMC commentaries they say Jack was at a very dark place in his life when he made the deal with Davy to resurrect the Pearl from it's depths in the ocean....I think we will find out just what kind of dark place he was in in AWE...Poor Jack...his story is really quite tragic despite the fact that he is clever and witty and crazy....and again, as we've said before...this is all an act...even the writers say that...Jack's antics are all an act...to keep his enemies off-guard...so no one can catch on to how smart he really is....he's always ten steps ahead of everyone else....except in parts of DMC...he's not thinking clearly cuz he is being vexed...elsewise...he wouldn't need Will and Elizabeth's help...he'd been able to find the key and the compass all by himself.....

^^^I was glad I heard that part about Jack being in a dark place in his life...cuz I was always a little concerned as to why Jack would make a deal like that...cuz he's a lot smarter than that....I guess he just figured he'd find a way out..like he always does...but he had no clue that when it came time to pay up the debt 13 years later...he would be vexed and not able to think as clearly as he usually does....

Just makes me wonder...what was Jack going throught...why was he so sad and depressed that he made a deal with DAvy to get the Pearl...

okay...I've answered my own question...in the rescue scene..he says...

"easy on the goods, darling."

"come, come, dear, we don't have all day"

"Sticks and Stones, Luv, you've saved my life, I saved yours, we're square now."....

Okay...so no big deal....except, the way he uses it in DMC...it seems much more on a familiar basis...like he means it when he calls her luv....especially when he says "We're not free yet, Luv"...I think he actually means it that time as a true and sincere endearment....

Originally posted by Chiki Mina
im so skeepy. i havent slept in days. and i fuess is working. good night

Ok, what the hell was that? I was really sleepy and stupid. Sorry about that.

Oh, and lovethemtigers, he says peas in a pod, darling. And I will get that siggy and avi ready for ya one way or the other. I had a long day at work plus I'm cooking and I have an exam tomorow. But I will get your siggy ready

Oh, and thanks, willo

So he doesn't call her by any names while he's piss-faced drunk and she's leaning into him on the island? THAT doesn't seem right. I don't have COTBP with me. Let me read the script.

"Welcome to the Caribbean, love."

"Not just the Spanish Main, love..."

"I know exactly what you mean, love." (where he thinks he's going to get lucky with her)

I wonder if Jack was getting screwed over by Beckett when he made the bargain with Jones. Like maybe Beckett was trying to ruin his life.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
So he doesn't call her by any names while he's piss-faced drunk and she's leaning into him on the island? THAT doesn't seem right. I don't have COTBP with me. Let me read the script.

"Welcome to the Caribbean, love."

"Not just the Spanish Main, love..."

"I know exactly what you mean, love." (where he thinks he's going to get lucky with her)

A-Ah...I love it...I knew he had to have said it more I just couldn't remember.....

And Mina...does he really say Peas in a Pod, Darling....I could have sworn he said ..."peas in a Pod, Luv."...Oh well, my bad....

I can't believe I forgot the island quote...it's one of my favorite...
"I know exactly what you mean, love...."...I've used it myself quite a bit on here when I'm in agreement with someone...gosh, how silly of me

Originally posted by Chiki Mina
Ok, what the hell was that? I was really sleepy and stupid. Sorry about that.

Oh, and lovethemtigers, he says peas in a pod, darling. And I will get that siggy and avi ready for ya one way or the other. I had a long day at work plus I'm cooking and I have an exam tomorow. But I will get your siggy ready

Oh, and thanks, willo

Oh...thank you Mina....I understand...I worked two jobs today...my day job and and night job...and then I had to go to Walmart...so I've practically been gone since 6:30 AM this morning...and I just got home just before Midnight...so I'm delirious...right about now...

Yeah, he does say, "peas in a pod, darling." It seems like he calls her darling when he's being serious and love when he's playing with her except when he says, "we're not free yet, love." But what do I know? He probably just uses them interchangably.

I know...I thought I was onto something....but I guess not...oh well...he does seem to use them randomnly...but I'm convinced that the "we're not free yet, luv" is very sincere....the look on this face, the tone of his voice....it gives me chills...

yeah as sincere as it gets...there are two parts that give me chills EVERYTIME one of them is the whole Jack saying goodbye to the pearl thing and leading up to the kiss.....the kiss it doesn't give me chills, gives me excitement and butterflies. Then the part where Jack goes down swinging and accpets his faith? I feel chills riding through my spine

True True!!! ^^

I was over on another pirate site...boat...er ship..and I got persmission to re-post this over here.....just thought that this was great...and some of you may have seen this....but here it is:


Please imagine this with me for a moment, if you will:


After arriving at the top-secret meeting of the Brethren with Lizzie, brand-new female member, in tow, Jack once again comes face-to-face with his long-lost, estranged Father, Teague.
Being deeply concerned about the fate of his blood-line, Teague asks his son whether or not this mysterious woman that he came with might be the one to carry it on. Jack, not knowing what to say, and not wanting to rouse the wrath of his short-tempered Father, not to mention not wanting to pass up the chance to put a certain someone in their place once and for all, quickly formulates the most piratically brilliant, yet dangerous plan he can think of: he impulsively pulls Lizzie close and kisses her, a deep, longing, and passionate kiss.....This, of course is instantly enough to appease "Daddy Sparrow", but little did Jack know, just how much deeper he would be getting himself, as every single old wound that this woman had left on his heart is suddenly opened like a floodgate, making him long for her even more. Likewise, of course, Miss Elizabeth is, on the surface, absolutely indignant and confused by this, not knowing in the least how to take such sudden action on Jack`s part. He makes her soo angry, that she just wants to pry him away from her right then and slap some manners in to him, or something, for his even DARING to kiss her, an engaged woman, like this...And yet, there is a part of her, deep down, that never wants him to let go of her, that longs to just stay in this moment forever as they drink each other in.....


Curse it all, but WHY does this man torment her heart so?


Naturally, they will both try their very hardest to avoid each other like the PLAGUE after this, maybe even resorting to agressiveness towards each other to widen the distance as they try to rationalize what had just happened, but no matter how much they`ll try to run, they can never hide from what it is that they felt in those moments that seemed to last a lifetime...


And so, the cycle of Sparrabeth-y deliciousness continues!

So in Summary...what we know about Elizabeth, Jack and Will:

Elizabeth breaks out of jail,
she persuades Beckett to give her the letters of marque without Jack's Compass,
she vanishes from the eyes of the EITC,
she hijacks a ship without firing a single shot, gets them to take her to Tortuga..
she gets in a bar brawl in Tortuga...
she finds Norrington and she finds Jack...

While Will is on the FD trying to find the key so he can save his bonny lass oh what's her name from her certain death....

and we are suppose to believe that Will and Elizabeth are made for each other.......

Now What did Jack say...we are very much alike you and I, I-you, Us....

and he calls her Pirate....

Jack has done many of those same things...maybe in AWE she will impersonate a person of the cloth/church..just like Jack..

Originally posted by lovethemtigers


Jack has done many of those same things...maybe in AWE she will impersonate a person of the cloth/church..just like Jack..

haha that would be funny

LMAO!!!!

But question...what was that? Part of the script? cause that sounds familiar i think someone mentioned that they saw this scene being filmed while working with the caterers or something!

What scene?! Im too tired to read lol. and lovethemtigers whereever you are im making your siggy.

Originally posted by PirateDiva
LMAO!!!!

But question...what was that? Part of the script? cause that sounds familiar i think someone mentioned that they saw this scene being filmed while working with the caterers or something!

Yeah! thats the scene that caterer described!

Im excited again...ahhhhhhhhhh!! Looks like we may have another Beautiful-beyond-words-kiss....ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!

LOL. That is too good to be true. But I have to admit that it is tempting to believe.

Originally posted by Chiki Mina
What scene?! Im too tired to read lol. and lovethemtigers whereever you are im making your siggy.

oh thank you mina...i was at a baseball game....and

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
I was over on another pirate site...boat...er ship..and I got persmission to re-post this over here.....just thought that this was great...and some of you may have seen this....but here it is:


Please imagine this with me for a moment, if you will:


After arriving at the top-secret meeting of the Brethren with Lizzie, brand-new female member, in tow, Jack once again comes face-to-face with his long-lost, estranged Father, Teague.
Being deeply concerned about the fate of his blood-line, Teague asks his son whether or not this mysterious woman that he came with might be the one to carry it on. Jack, not knowing what to say, and not wanting to rouse the wrath of his short-tempered Father, not to mention not wanting to pass up the chance to put a certain someone in their place once and for all, quickly formulates the most piratically brilliant, yet dangerous plan he can think of: he impulsively pulls Lizzie close and kisses her, a deep, longing, and passionate kiss.....This, of course is instantly enough to appease "Daddy Sparrow", but little did Jack know, just how much deeper he would be getting himself, as every single old wound that this woman had left on his heart is suddenly opened like a floodgate, making him long for her even more. Likewise, of course, Miss Elizabeth is, on the surface, absolutely indignant and confused by this, not knowing in the least how to take such sudden action on Jack`s part. He makes her soo angry, that she just wants to pry him away from her right then and slap some manners in to him, or something, for his even DARING to kiss her, an engaged woman, like this...And yet, there is a part of her, deep down, that never wants him to let go of her, that longs to just stay in this moment forever as they drink each other in.....


Curse it all, but WHY does this man torment her heart so?


Naturally, they will both try their very hardest to avoid each other like the PLAGUE after this, maybe even resorting to agressiveness towards each other to widen the distance as they try to rationalize what had just happened, but no matter how much they`ll try to run, they can never hide from what it is that they felt in those moments that seemed to last a lifetime...


And so, the cycle of Sparrabeth-y deliciousness continues!

this is someone's elaboration of that scene...their own self-description of what might take place in that scene based on what the caterer told us....savvy??? Just thought it was a hot way to describe it...

you know t and t have said that what Elizabeth wears tells us alot about her..well, remember way back when...when LovelyOne posted her theory about the hat and how it related to Jack and Elizabeth...and then how Elizabeth's clothes were like Jack's throughout DMC...she's wanting to be like Jack..and we now realize that she has committed pirate acts the same as Jack...hummmm....so I wonder what her chinese pirate clothes mean in AWE....

You know what I'm hoping for? Something like, Jack and Elizabeth are alone and are stuck in a situation where they are both inevitably going to die. Having a few minutes to live they start confessing their true feelings for each other. Then, they are rescued and now must live with the fact that they both confessed to each other their feelings.. ah-ha!

that would be grant!!! but I doubt that they'll make it because I think Liz would NEVER admitt her feelings for jack to him!! she has her proud even if she turns into pirate! see, when norri attacks her with jack.

HEY!!! Sophie you're back! You were gone for a long time. missed ya. welcome back!

BTW HOT HOT kiss describtion lovethemtigers! Thnx for posting this...it would be so cool if it was confirmed that the theory is true.

Originally posted by Jacky Sparrow
that would be grant!!! but I doubt that they'll make it because I think Liz would NEVER admitt her feelings for jack to him!! she has her proud even if she turns into pirate! see, when norri attacks her with jack.

yeah..i've had fantasies about such a scene...I may post it on the J/E lines in AWE thread...where I've posted some other scenes from the top of my head....

Yeah I love reading your scenes. fantasize about them happening all the time

Originally posted by Too_Blue
You know what I'm hoping for? Something like, Jack and Elizabeth are alone and are stuck in a situation where they are both inevitably going to die. Having a few minutes to live they start confessing their true feelings for each other. Then, they are rescued and now must live with the fact that they both confessed to each other their feelings.. ah-ha!

Lol...that would be Hott...and funny at the same time....Knowing how they feel about each other yet both keeping their Pride!! I can see some real comedic scenes coming out of that!! Lmao!

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
We've had threads like this in the past...but there old and out of sight...May is approaching and its time to rehash things....see what's on everyone's minds.....

this is where we can talk about Jack, Elizabeth, that darn compass and all the quotes - included and deleted - uttered by the supporting casts that surround the Sparrabeth Theory....

I'll start....

here is deleted line from COTBP....when Barbossa and Jack are talking on the Pearl...


BARBOSSA (CONT'D)
Pintel ... set sail. If this fool plan
is to work, we'll need the medallion,
and that means catching the ship which
brought 'em here.

Jack is caught completely off guard. For the first time,
his smile fades.

JACK
What -- you don't have the medallion?

BARBOSSA
That fool woman took it. You be
careful around her, Jack -- she's
pretty enough, she'll steal your
heart -- but pure evil inside.

JACK
I'll watch my back.

BARBOSSA
Bosun! Set up Mr. Sparrow's quarters,
nice and fine ... in the brig.
(to Jack, a smile)
Meaning no disrespect, of course.

Jack nods, and is taken away. Barbossa stares after him,
not hiding his mistrust.

OMG I have never seen that before, anybody have a link so I can see it or is it just written... I think I'll search it on Youtube but if you have a link, you know what to do

WOW.....looks like Liz stole his heart...but is she pure evil?

I think Liz is a bit of a brat. *keeps dancing merengue*

lmao *joins Mina in Dancing* HEY THIS IS FUN!!!

LMAO!!! Can you imagine Johnny dancing merengue! omg lool el perreo!!! LMAO!!

Lmao....hahaha well i like to imagine him doing the Tango with me!!! *starts fanning herself* lmao!

I like to imagine hump--err tango with me also..

Luda, despite what you may think, I do care about people, and I do think that reminding you all of the fact that Will and Elizabeth probably will end up being together is not a bad thing.


Now to set you straight on what my opinion is on Jack and Elizabeth as a ship. Unlike what you assume, I don't deny that Jack and Elizabeth have a connection. They look good on screen, they have interesting conversations, and their interactions are flirtatious. I just don't think what they have qualifies them as being the 'couple' for the next film. I think that they are great friends, possibly more than friends, but I can't ever see them being happy together.


Before you assume you know what my opinions are, maybe you ought to ask me. Savvy?


Now, to lovethemtigers question about the Chinese costume, I can't help but wonder if Elizabeth is now confused about who she thinks she really is. She's not dressed as Jack now, she's not truly dressed like a lady, although her outfit is feminine enough.


So she's on her quest to discover who she is, and in that time, she will figure out where and with whom her heart truly lies. Whether it is with Will or with Jack is the main question. Yes, I believe it is with Will, but who knows, TnT could surprise me yet.

I don't think it's all about whom she chooses to be with. I think its about growing into character. Finally maturing a bit. Learning how life really is and how dangerous it could be.

^^ You misunderstand me; I didn't mean that her journey is about whom she chooses. That's only part of it. The real journey is about Elizabeth discovering who she is, and also, about either accepting who she is or changing her perception of herself. The guy is just the icing on the cake.

Oh yeah^^ I agree.

Elizabeth has a long way to go. Is what they call them things...a journey of self discovery, something like that. I think out of all characters, I think Elizabeth is the hardest to predict.

Elizabeth's is the hardest to predict. We all know James is going to attempt to find redemption, Will and Jack will both be going down a darker road but will redeem themselves...


But Lizzie? Who knows? Pirate? A lady? Both? Who knows?

I have some doubt she would choose to be a "lady" in the sense of going back to the way things were before COTBP. But I also think she's fed up with pirates, or at least is disillusioned with them. It must have been so hard for someone like her back then to find their place. Even though T&T say she's the best pirate of all the characters, I would say she's more of an adventurer. She's not into hurting people or stealing or committing crimes. She just wants to be free to make her own choices and do what she wants to do. I hope AWE gives her that freedom.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
I have some doubt she would choose to be a "lady" in the sense of going back to the way things were before COTBP. But I also think she's fed up with pirates, or at least is disillusioned with them. It must have been so hard for someone like her back then to find their place. Even though T&T say she's the best pirate of all the characters, I would say she's more of an adventurer. She's not into hurting people or stealing or committing crimes. She just wants to be free to make her own choices and do what she wants to do. I hope AWE gives her that freedom.

I agree

I agree, willo. Im pretty sure Liz doesnt want to go back to be what's classified as a "lady" when you're a little trapped house wife trapped with an uptight society.

But she also doesn't want to "pirate" as a living. She got her adventure in DMC, and there is more to come in AWE. She will learn and is learning how harsh it is to be a pirate trying to survive all the evil out there that is after you.

Originally posted by Chiki Mina
I agree, willo. Im pretty sure Liz doesnt want to go back to be what's classified as a "lady" when you're a little trapped house wife trapped with an uptight society.

But she also doesn't want to "pirate" as a living. She got her adventure in DMC, and there is more to come in AWE. She will learn and is learning how harsh it is to be a pirate trying to survive all the evil out there that is after you.

Totally, spot on girl!

That's why I'm kept in the dark about what will happen to her. She's not a society lady, but in a way, she's not a pirate. Oh, she has a pirate spirit which is what Jack eludes to, but I don't think she wants to actually be one. So what options are left for her, a woman in that time period? She can't really go back to normal because she's still a fugitive in Port Royal.

^^Continuing on what willo is stating--

And piracy itself is at it's end. She has pirate heart, a true lady pirate. But she knows that the time has come. And Jack knows it too. Historically talking, piracy is at its end because it's time for a new era. Piracy will never end because they are all have pirate in their heart. But, eventually, will come to realize that life at sea and plungering and running from the navy all the time is not what someone wants as a life.

So what can she do? It just seems like she's losing whatever she decides even though most would argue that she wins either way. "Let's see, Orlando or Johnny...tough call..." But look at it this way, if she chooses neither and captains her own ship, she's just become Jack. We know he's lonely and that's his one regret with the life he's chosen. She would be the same way, always alone, especially as a female pirate. If she picks Jack, yeah, she's with who we want her to be with, but they won't ever have any stability or quiet moments, and although they both love excitement, they're going to need quiet moments. And if she picks Will, her need for adventure goes almost completely unfulfilled. So it's a conundrum.

so basically who ever she chooses she is going to want more.

i think she could have the best of both worlds with jack...love, marriage and freedom...because being with the person you are in love with can bring freedom..freedom to be who you truly are....she can be a woman and a "pirate" with Jack....but I don't mean a pirate who pillages and plunders and eats really bad eggs....I'm talking about a Pirate who breaks the law or goes against society to help those in need...I've always fantasized that when Jack pillages and plunders...he actually distributes his wealth to his crew and those slaves he helped set free..he brings them food and clothing....Jack doesn't come across as a wealthy Pirate with vast treasures....so I doubt he's done much searching and finding of treasure..he'd like to...however, he did spend 10 years trying to get the Pearl back...

But Jack and Liz want the same thing: Freedom

And by that I don't mean a ship. They want their own freedom, to have a life where they could not be judged.

I wouldn't say that her love for adventure would go totally unfulfilled with Will though I admit the types of adventures she'll have with him would be perhaps a bit milder than what they'd be with Jack.


But that's a different discussion.


Honestly, I could see Elizabeth going somewhere new and exciting, like the Americas. There'd be a lot of unexplored territory, and with her thirst for adventure and such wide open spaces, she'd probably find plenty of adventuring to make herself content. Oh, and she can bring along one (or all! ) of the guys too.

lmao^^i'm down with her bringing all the guys here!

I agree with lovethemtigers she can have both with Jack, freedom to do what you want and adventure! In books the girl usually has a guy she supposabley "loves" him but there is always another guy to flirt with or a guy she absolutely despise but in the end the girl usually ends up with the other guy because they have more in common and share a greater passion, that describes jack and liz. Their true hearts are like puzzle pieces when they are together it becomes one they can be who they are and not anybody else when they are around each other, it proves it in DMC. Will and her, their life is nice i mean she doesn't want to settle down and I think she will never settle down it's not her nature to. She wants advanture and freedom and Jack gives her that!

Okay, I just hope we get some sense that she is complete, not just happy, in whatever role she chooses for herself. I think that's what she really wants, to choose her own role. Jack I guess would be the most indirectly supportive of that since he's so big into freedom. I was just saying earlier that it would be hard for them to be together not because of the two of them, but just because of the nature of what they do. I can a lot of separations. Oh well. T&T will know what to do.

^^But I don't think Jack is into freedom for stealing and pirating, etc.

I think what Jack means by freedom is doing what's right and choosing your own path---and NOT to be judged.

I think that ever since Jack saw those slaves, he wanted to do what was right. The result: branded a pirate. So therefore, he decided to choose his own path. To be freed from the grasp of an uptight society.

Elizabeth is more or less in that situation.

In a way, Will is in the same boat as Jack and Elizabeth. I've really seen no indication in DMC or CotBP that he's really all that fond of society. He's been abused by society just as much as Elizabeth and Jack.


In fact, his story is beginning to mirror Jack's in that no matter what he tries to do, he either doesn't get the credit for it or he is punished in some way. I'm not saying that he's a better match for Elizabeth than Jack is, but I do feel that people do not give Will's character much thought except to complain that he's in the way of J/E. Will's journey as a character is just as important as Elizabeth and Jack's journies.

It just seems to me that Ilsa ending up with Victor but loving Rick is an okay way to go... but no one sits around arguing that Ilsa really loves Victor more and is making that relationship work for her own happiness. There is a lot at stake--- the fate of a rebellion and countless lives. It's Rick's decision, not hers.

I dont think Elizabeth will fight for her relationship with Will on the basis of their own personal happiness anymore. There just seems to be too much between them (then again, this is Disney, and I've been watching too much Scorcese lately)... that if they do end up fighting to make their relationship work, it will be for other reasons, namely Will's life or the fate of piracy or something.

Or just the fact that they think that's the right thing to do. I can see that, them fighting for it because it's what they expected to do with their lives and they still think the other one really wants to. Will has been screwed over plenty of times by society too as someone earlier mentioned, but I think he views it just slightly differently than Liz does. She's not really abused by it, more like smothered with it.

But....knowing that Elizabeth has changed...and she's let her inner Pirate self surface...seems odd that she would fight to save a relationship just because it's the right thing to do...but then again...she still seems to be clinging to that honorable side of her...the promise she made to her father and to Will the day they pulled him out of the ocean when he was 12/13 years old...."I'm looking out for you, Will"....

I agree with Kate...if she fights to save the relationship..it's not going to be because she is in love with Will or can't live without him...it's going to be because it's a matter of LIfe or Death...and not where her heart truly lies.....

Exactly. She's going to do it because she loves Will, but not because she's in love with Will. She has changed, tasted freedom, seen what it's like to be out on her own and all that, but she's also a little disillusioned with it. She's seen the negative aspects as well as the positive. She wants to have an adventure while still being honorable. We've failed to mention that just because she's a pirate doesn't mean she WANTS to do these Machiavellian things like "turning on one of her own" as the writers put it. I think part of her is still convincing herself that piracy is just fun, but not a lifestyle.

Disney is not going to have the audience or the characters feel dissatisfied with how the love triangle is resolved. If Elizabeth ends up with Will, it's because that's what she really wants. I have never seen her do anything in the film because she has to, except for maybe wear the dress. Everything she has done is because she wants to do it, so I really think it's unfair to state that Elizabeth would only choose Will because she somehow feels obligated and that she no longer really loves him.


Elizabeth knows what she wants. She's confused right now, but when she finally decides, it will be because she is absolutely certain that it is what she wants. She's too passionate of a person to settle for anything less than that.


And has anyone ever thought that maybe it isn't the lifestyle so much as the actual person she wants to be with? Yeah, Jack's lifestyle is fun, and she's a pirate, BUT does she really love Jack, or is it just his lifestyle she's in love with? I think the writers also mentioned how Jack may not necessarily be in love with Elizabeth, but in love with the idea of having his own 'Elizabeth'. I can't recall the exact quote, but it was something along the lines of, "Is Jack vexed by Elizabeth because he's in love with her? Or is it that he's vexed because of what she represents?" And the quote goes on to give other suggestions for why Jack may be vexed by Elizabeth.


True love may not have anything to do with how Elizabeth and Jack feel about each other at all. Instead, it might be this idealized fantasy of having love (Jack's view), and having an idealized version of freedom (Elizabeth's view). The intensity and longing for such things might be mistaken by them (and us!) as love, when it's not remotely that simple at all.


It's just a thought. I know it's "anti-Sparrabeth", but it's good to look at all possible ideas, isn't it?

Is this what you were talking about Surreal?







http://forums.keeptothecode.com/viewtopic.php?p=176018&highlight=#176018

way to go Misty...gosh that's awfully close to what I said somewhere else....and I hadn't even read this post yet...

here's what I wrote....

This is what gets me the most....some try to downplay the fact that Jack wants Elizabeth..that the romance part of DMC is just a filler...but that can't be right..because the whole plot/story of the movie is that Jack has debt to pay to Davy Jones and he needs save his life by finding the key, unlocking the chest and having the heart of Davy Jones...BUT....the compass isn't working for Jack..in that matter...Elizabeth is playing into his thoughts....Jack needs the help of Will and Elizabeth to help him find the key and the chest..bec ause he is being so vexed by Elizabeth he cannot do it himself...So the fact that Johnny says in that interview that Jack has something very specific on his mind...I would say that that very specific thing is Elizabeth...because if it were finding the key and the chest...No Worries, then, mate...the compass would have led him to it...but instead...it only keeps pointing him back to Port Royal and a certain Bonny Lass...Savvy....
Jack wants freedom more than anything...Right? and staying alive and out of Davy's cluthces would represent that freedom, Right? so...why doesn't him compass work for him? Because..now that's now what he wants most in this world...he wants Elizabeth..and not just in a romantic/sexual sense of the word....but in wanting a relationship/life with her....she now represents freedom for Jack..IMO...freedom to be the man he truly is...a good man...

Thank you lovethemtigers I love your banner BTW And yes that was really closed to what you just said.

I agree with you there misty, I think also there is another problem with jack is that he does not know how to react around with Eilzabeth...Meaning he does not know what to do in a real relation ship....Sure Jack is a Lady's man but it's more ok move one type thing...but, he does not know anything about a real relationship....I think with lizzie it will be quit different and new experiance for him that he will never forget...

I believe that is the quote, yes, Misty. It's just a point to not say that J/E isn't going to work, but to look at it from a non-romantic point of view. Maybe they aren't in love with each other.


I believe the writers also said that they tried to make it clear that Jack is not "safely and easily in love" with Elizabeth, and that the movie does not directly show that it actually is Elizabeth herself that is vexing Jack's compass.


In fact, they almost indicate that Elizabeth may be the catalyst but not the true reason why his compass isn't working. It is just our own interperatation of the films that leads us to believe that Jack is in love with her, when it could just be an attempt to misdirect us from what Jack really wants. Again, this is just a thought.