Are you open to the possibility that you may be wrong ?

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Lord Urizen
Ofcourse, personally, this thread is meant to address Christians and Muslims, however, for the sake of being fair, I want to ask everyone this....


Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, alike (and whatever other religion you identify with)




Are you at ALL open to the possibility that you can be wrong ? That your beleifs/conclusions could be false ?

If so, why ?



If not, why not ?

Shakyamunison
Right or wrong in what way?

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Right or wrong in what way?


That your beleifs could be incorrect or non factual or untruthful.



That your beleifs about creation, about life, about morality, about what is truth could be just your perception of reality, and not reality itself.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
That your beleifs could be incorrect or non factual or untruthful.



That your beleifs about creation, about life, about morality, about what is truth could be just your perception of reality, and not reality itself.

What does it matter, as long as it works?

If it makes you happy and fulfilled, why would some unquantifiable truth be important?

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What does it matter, as long as it works?

If it makes you happy and fulfilled, why would some unquantifiable truth be important?


It doesn't matter....



But i think the it is most wise to realize you may not be correct.....not for the sake of self judgement, just for the lack of arrogance

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
It doesn't matter....



But i think the it is most wise to realize you may not be correct.....not for the sake of self judgement, just for the lack of arrogance

Well, we should not be arrogant, and understand that every person has their own path. My path my not be right for you, but it is right for me. If I am living a path that is wrong for me, only I can know that, and only I can change that.

Boris
Of course I'm open that I'm wrong - that there is in fact a god, but untill I see proof, I'll stick with Atheism.

Regret
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Are you at ALL open to the possibility that you can be wrong ? That your beleifs/conclusions could be false ? Yes.Originally posted by Lord Urizen
why ? If one is not open to the possibility that one is wrong, then if one is wrong, one cannot grasp the opportunity to improve oneself when evidence of such presents itself.

Lord Urizen
You guys are smartie pants

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You guys are smartie pants

Most of the people you want to answer this thread are gone. cool

Regret
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Most of the people you want to answer this thread are gone. cool I doubt most of them would answer it anyway, or else they'd respond that they couldn't be wrong with reference-quote-Biblical assumption.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Regret
I doubt most of them would answer it anyway, or else they'd respond that they couldn't be wrong with reference-quote-Biblical assumption.


Therefore, what is there it talk about in this thread?

Smiter
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Ofcourse, personally, this thread is meant to address Christians and Muslims, however, for the sake of being fair, I want to ask everyone this....


Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, alike (and whatever other religion you identify with)




Are you at ALL open to the possibility that you can be wrong ? That your beleifs/conclusions could be false ?

If so, why ?



If not, why not ?

BLASPHEMY!!!
ORGASMISM IS INFALLIBLE!!!
2 MILLION PEOPLE HAVE SEX EVERY DAY!!!
ORGASMUS IS NEVER WRONG!!!
doingit

May The Orgasm Be With You
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/7965/blowjobhe8.gif

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Are you at ALL open to the possibility that you can be wrong ? That your beleifs/conclusions could be false ?

Only if evidence can be provided that would convince me that I am wrong.

However at the same time I will admit that personal bias probably prevents me from accepting certain evidence.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Smiter
BLASPHEMY!!!
ORGASMISM IS INFALLIBLE!!!
2 MILLION PEOPLE HAVE SEX EVERY DAY!!!
ORGASMUS IS NEVER WRONG!!!
doingit

May The Orgasm Be With You
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/7965/blowjobhe8.gif

Hmmmm. While slightly off topic you really have dropped your "A Christian person wants to know the devil's side" persona haven't you? Makes me wonder if you ever had it. Not that I would be implying you're a sock or anything.

As to the question - yes, I certainly am.

It is perfectly respectable, indeed admirable, to have conviction in ones stance, ones view. All the more so when they are able to argue it and defend it in a high standard fashion - that is a stance substantiated by more then simply blind faith.

However in my eyes it is just as courageous and noble to have an open mind. The moment a person says "I can't be wrong and as such nor can my beliefs" is the moment a person has shut down the ability to learn and grow in that particular field. To embrace ignorance. As essentially an Atheist I feel I have good reason to think of myself as such - but I enjoy a good debate, be it participating in or watching. This includes religion.

If I find out God/gods exist - good. I wouldn't turn a blind eye and pretend the other way because I have to much pride to admit a mistake -because baseless pride is just foolish pride, the pride of the unrepentantly and proudly ignorant (Marchello I think of you). I doubt it will happen, as it seems the quality of proof I ask for is unreasonable and apparently even unthinkable from various Gods, even if they do exist, but if they ever feel like putting themselves forward I will be more then happy to listen.

Lord Urizen
1) I highly doubt Marcello would ever acknowledge this thread



2) Smiter is Christian/Orgasmist, but he doesn't think Atheists are "on the devil's side" He was just joking, you know how he is.

Dreampanther
I'm a bit of a Foucault fan - therefore I tend to support the view that truth is relative - relative to power, relative to society, relative to history... In my view, truth is a social construct, a mechanism to help you deal with and interpret reality.

Mindship
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Ofcourse, personally, this thread is meant to address Christians and Muslims, however, for the sake of being fair, I want to ask everyone this....

Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, alike (and whatever other religion you identify with)

Are you at ALL open to the possibility that you can be wrong ? That your beleifs/conclusions could be false ?

If so, why ?

If not, why not ?

Absolutely it could all be a crock of crap. People make mistakes, our perception of reality is limited. Dammit, lad, we're not God (well, not in the Obvious Unlimited Power way, anyway). smokin'

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
1) I highly doubt Marcello would ever acknowledge this thread

Of course he wont, but it is still funny to think he might. Well, funny in a "oh the humanity" kind of way, because I can image the fire and brimstone of his CAPITALIZED fury.



Of course I do. Just musing that he seems more then a little familiar.

Tangible God
I sincerely hope I am wrong.

muslimscholar
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Ofcourse, personally, this thread is meant to address Christians and Muslims, however, for the sake of being fair, I want to ask everyone this....


Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, alike (and whatever other religion you identify with)




Are you at ALL open to the possibility that you can be wrong ? That your beleifs/conclusions could be false ?

If so, why ?



If not, why not ?

if i had any doubt in my religion i wouldn't be following it would I?
thats just common sense

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by muslimscholar
if i had any doubt in my religion i wouldn't be following it would I?
thats just common sense

Many people follow a religion and have hidden doubt.

Smiter
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Hmmmm. While slightly off topic you really have dropped your "A Christian person wants to know the devil's side" persona haven't you? Makes me wonder if you ever had it. Not that I would be implying you're a sock or anything.

As to the question - yes, I certainly am.

It is perfectly respectable, indeed admirable, to have conviction in ones stance, ones view. All the more so when they are able to argue it and defend it in a high standard fashion - that is a stance substantiated by more then simply blind faith.

However in my eyes it is just as courageous and noble to have an open mind. The moment a person says "I can't be wrong and as such nor can my beliefs" is the moment a person has shut down the ability to learn and grow in that particular field. To embrace ignorance. As essentially an Atheist I feel I have good reason to think of myself as such - but I enjoy a good debate, be it participating in or watching. This includes religion.

If I find out God/gods exist - good. I wouldn't turn a blind eye and pretend the other way because I have to much pride to admit a mistake -because baseless pride is just foolish pride, the pride of the unrepentantly and proudly ignorant (Marchello I think of you). I doubt it will happen, as it seems the quality of proof I ask for is unreasonable and apparently even unthinkable from various Gods, even if they do exist, but if they ever feel like putting themselves forward I will be more then happy to listen.

Another serious poster roll eyes (sarcastic) Tsk tsk tsk

lord xyz
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Ofcourse, personally, this thread is meant to address Christians and Muslims, however, for the sake of being fair, I want to ask everyone this....


Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, alike (and whatever other religion you identify with)




Are you at ALL open to the possibility that you can be wrong ? That your beleifs/conclusions could be false ?

If so, why ?



If not, why not ? If atheism wasn't proven right, I would be open to the possibility that it could be wrong. However, atheism is right. But I'm going to say religion is an absolute possiblity, I mean, there's still a chance.

Quiero Mota
Of course not, why? Porque it makes absolutely no sense to adhere to a religion if think it being wrong is a possiblity.

Mindship
Originally posted by muslimscholar
if i had any doubt in my religion i wouldn't be following it would I?
Maybe you doubt other belief systems more.

§uffer§noopy
Do you?

Thundar
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Ofcourse, personally, this thread is meant to address Christians and Muslims, however, for the sake of being fair, I want to ask everyone this....


Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, alike (and whatever other religion you identify with)




Are you at ALL open to the possibility that you can be wrong ? That your beleifs/conclusions could be false ?

If so, why ?

If not, why not ?


Let me answer this question with a question.

Do you think someone can always be right?

If your answer to this question is "yes", then you've agreed that absolute correctness exists, or as it is more appropriately termed "absolute truth."

And if your answer to this question is "no", then you'll still be asserting that you are always right about people always being wrong about something, and thus by doing so you'll have once again validated the existence of absolute truth.

All that being stated, I believe the truth that I follow is great enough to overcome any other, since it is absolute in it's nature.

You see Urizen if one already believes in the possible fallibility of their position, then they've already conceeded that the supposed "truth" supporting stated position, will at some point be overcome by the absoluteness of another's.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Thundar
Let me answer this question with a question...

I never trust anyone who answers a question with a question.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Thundar
Let me answer this question with a question.


Is that because you can't answer the question directly ? erm




Originally posted by Thundar
Do you think someone can always be right?



No. We are flawed, we do not know everything. There is no possible way an individual person can be right about everything.




Originally posted by Thundar
If your answer to this question is "yes", then you've agreed that absolute correctness exists, or as it is more appropriately termed "absolute truth."


My answer was no, so your point is dismissed.






Originally posted by Thundar
And if your answer to this question is "no", then you'll still be asserting that you are always right about people always being wrong about something, and thus by doing so you'll have once again validated the existence of absolute truth.



No you moron....


I didn't state that people are "always wrong" about something


I stated that an individual person cannot be right about Everything


I didn't deny the existance of absolute truth.



What I am denying is our ability to know Absolute Truth, since we do not know everything. Our senses and learning capabilities are LIMITTED.


Therefore, we could not know everything, and not possibly know absolute truth. Only recognize something as being true, until further evidense shows us false. Then we move on.


Originally posted by Thundar
All that being stated, I believe the truth that I follow is great enough to overcome any other, since it is absolute in it's nature.



How is your truth absolute ?



I think you a fool to beleive such a thing.....





Originally posted by Thundar
You see Urizen if one already believes in the possible fallibility of their position, then they've already conceeded that the supposed "truth" supporting stated position, will at some point be overcome by the absoluteness of another's.



Not necessarily....they will be open to the idea that they could be wrong...nothing more nothing less.



Is it your GOAL to be absolutely right ? Do you FEAR being wrong about anything ? Do you fear learning a truth which denounces your own current beleifs ?


If so, you are a coward. thumb down

Mindship

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Is that because you can't answer the question directly ? erm

No. We are flawed, we do not know everything. There is no possible way an individual person can be right about everything.

My answer was no, so your point is dismissed.

No you moron....

I didn't state that people are "always wrong" about something

I stated that an individual person cannot be right about Everything

I didn't deny the existance of absolute truth.

What I am denying is our ability to know Absolute Truth, since we do not know everything. Our senses and learning capabilities are LIMITTED.

Therefore, we could not know everything, and not possibly know absolute truth. Only recognize something as being true, until further evidense shows us false. Then we move on.

How is your truth absolute ?

I think you a fool to beleive such a thing.....

Not necessarily....they will be open to the idea that they could be wrong...nothing more nothing less.

Is it your GOAL to be absolutely right ? Do you FEAR being wrong about anything ? Do you fear learning a truth which denounces your own current beleifs ?

If so, you are a coward. thumb down

That was a great post Lord Urizen.

Just tell Thundar the undeniable truth, that the absolute truth cannot be written down in a book. Therefore the bible is not absolute truth. wink

Thundar
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Is that because you can't answer the question directly ? erm


I did directly answer your question, you just didn't like the answer.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
No. We are flawed, we do not know everything. There is no possible way an individual person can be right about everything.

No you moron....


I didn't state that people are "always wrong" about something


I stated that an individual person cannot be right about Everything

What I am denying is our ability to know Absolute Truth, since we do not know everything. Our senses and learning capabilities are LIMITTED

I didn't deny the existance of absolute truth.


As "limitted" beings we may not completely understand the absolute truth about everything, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the everything that we do know, can be absolutely right.

So despite our "limitted" understanding of everything, the absolute truth about everything isn't "limitted" to our understanding or knowledge of it.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
How is your truth absolute ?


Faith makes it absolute. You don't have faith that the position you hold is infallible. This being such, as I stated before, is why you and others of like minded "limitted" reasoning will always lose to the absolute truth I place my faith in.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I think you a fool to beleive such a thing.....


Only a fool would think that he could never know absolute truth, and then expect others to "beleive" the absolute truth behind his arguments.


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Is it your GOAL to be absolutely right ? Do you FEAR being wrong about anything ? Do you fear learning a truth which denounces your own current beleifs ?


If so, you are a coward. thumb down


I don't fear the possibility of myself being absolutely wrong, in fact it strengthens my belief in absolute truth existing.

Now ask yourself this question, do you fear the possibility of me being absolutely right?

I think we both know the answer to that one.

Have a good night..mr. Urizen...wink

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Thundar
I did directly answer your question, you just didn't like the answer.

As "limitted" beings we may not completely understand the absolute truth about everything, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the everything that we do know, can be absolutely right.

So despite our "limitted" understanding of everything, the absolute truth about everything isn't "limitted" to our understanding or knowledge of it.

Faith makes it absolute. You don't have faith that the position you hold is infallible. This being such, as I stated before, is why you and others of like minded "limitted" reasoning will always lose to the absolute truth I place my faith in.

Only a fool would think that he could never know absolute truth, and then expect others to "beleive" the absolute truth behind his arguments.

I don't fear the possibility of myself being absolutely wrong, in fact it strengthens my belief in absolute truth existing.

Now ask yourself this question, do you fear the possibility of me being absolutely right?

I think we both know the answer to that one.

Have a good night..mr. Urizen...wink

Most of the above is insulting double talk.

Your faith does not give you access to an absolute truth, for the bible is not absolute truth.

Absolute truth cannot be understood. It cannot be written down, and cannot be expressed.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That was a great post Lord Urizen.

Just tell Thundar the undeniable truth, that the absolute truth cannot be written down in a book. Therefore the bible is not absolute truth. wink


Thanks bro big grin




Originally posted by Whob
I did directly answer your question, you just didn't like the answer.


Umm...No...you answered indirectly, through loopholes.


I understood your point, but I would have admired it much better if you would have just openly admitted that you are NOT open to the possibility that you may be wrong, instead of cowering behind a series of suggested justification.




Originally posted by Whob
As "limitted" beings we may not completely understand the absolute truth about everything, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the everything that we do know, can be absolutely right.


That is definately true.


But how would one know that he or she is absolutely right ? Just because one happens to be right about something, doesn't mean he or she would absolutely realize it.


Buddhists could be absolutely right....Atheists could be absolutely right...Christians could be absolutely right....Muslims could be absolutely right (let us pray they are not)


How does one know who is and who isn't, since our senses are not the most reliable way to determine ?




Originally posted by Whob
So despite our "limitted" understanding of everything, the absolute truth about everything isn't "limitted" to our understanding or knowledge of it.


That is true, you basically just proved my point.


We are limitted to knowing Truth....Truth is not limitted to us. So, knowing this, how can you be so sure that you know absolute truth ?



Originally posted by Whob
Faith makes it absolute.



Faith makes NOTHING absolute. This is where you are deluded.


Faith does not change Facts. If I have faith that the Earth is flat, that doesn't make it so. You are quite foolish Whob, my dear freind.


Originally posted by Whob
You don't have faith that the position you hold is infallible. This being such, as I stated before, is why you and others of like minded "limitted" reasoning will always lose to the absolute truth I place my faith in.



Your logic is completely absurd Whob....I mean Thundar...


What about Shaky's Faith in his Truth ?


What about my Faith in my truth ?



Does my Faith that God is Orgasm make it true ? eek!




You haven't explained how you are right and the rest of us are wrong. You only displayed how closed minded and foolish you truly are.



You argue that you are absolutely right because you have Faith in your beleif.... erm




SO ?



Fatima has Faith in her beleif....Shaky has Faith in his...I have Faith in mine....



What makes your Faith correct and ours incorrect ?

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Thundar who is really Whob
Only a fool would think that he could never know absolute truth, and then expect others to "beleive" the absolute truth behind his arguments.



I never claimed Absolute Truth....God you are a moron..... roll eyes (sarcastic)






Originally posted by Thundar who is really Whob
I don't fear the possibility of myself being absolutely wrong, in fact it strengthens my belief in absolute truth existing.

Now ask yourself this question, do you fear the possibility of me being absolutely right?

I think we both know the answer to that one.



No I do not fear it, because I am not open to the possibility of you being right. Unlike yourself, I am not motivated by a constant Fear of ending up in Hell....


My actions are genuine, while yours are in assurance of reaching your "heaven".


I help people because I feel bad for people in need, not because I think God will give me a happy sticker for doing good.



I sacrafice out of Love for those around me, not to make a show of "God's Grace"....





Originally posted by Thundar who is really Whob
Have a good night..mr. Urizen...wink




Oh I will....BUTT SEX GALORE ! droolio




ALL PRAISE ORGASM!

§uffer§noopy
Originally posted by Mindship
Of course. So do you. That was for the thread starter; and yes, I do.

Strangelove
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Ofcourse, personally, this thread is meant to address Christians and Muslims, however, for the sake of being fair, I want to ask everyone this....


Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, alike (and whatever other religion you identify with)

Although, if I'm wrong, I go to some sort of hell hmm




Are you at ALL open to the possibility that you can be wrong ? That your beleifs/conclusions could be false ?

If so, why ?



If not, why not ? If I'm right, that's fine and dandy. If I'm wrong, that's cool too.

Although, if I'm wrong, I go to some sort of hell. Which would suck

Marxman
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What does it matter, as long as it works?

If it makes you happy and fulfilled, why would some unquantifiable truth be important? Your happiness isn't all important. If your beliefs hinders the happiness of others than it is wrong. End of story.
Originally posted by muslimscholar
if i had any doubt in my religion i wouldn't be following it would I?
thats just common sense
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Of course not, why? Porque it makes absolutely no sense to adhere to a religion if think it being wrong is a possiblity. Untrue. You can have faith in your religion without blind faith. When archaeologists find dinosaur bones the idea that they were put there by God to test your faith is ridiculous. When its proven that the core of your faith is violent, even when people insist that its only extremists that are violent, then there's something wrong. When the only way you can explain something is "Because God can do anything" or "Because it says so in the Bible" there is obvious skepticism that goes with it.

Faith is different from blind faith. When something is obviously amiss, one must question or mindless sheep.

Smiter
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That was a great post Lord Urizen.

Just tell Thundar the undeniable truth, that the absolute truth cannot be written down in a book. Therefore the bible is not absolute truth. wink

Orgasmic Bliss Is Eternal Truth. eek! Therefore its the absolute truth.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Marxman
Your happiness isn't all important. If your beliefs hinders the happiness of others than it is wrong. End of story.


Why would you assume that my happiness would lead to other people's suffering? I am not talking about carnal happiness, but true happiness.

A truly joyous person wishes everyone to be happy. That is why a Bodhisattva will strive to bring happiness to others and help lead them into enlightenment.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Of course not, why? Porque it makes absolutely no sense to adhere to a religion if think it being wrong is a possiblity.

It makes less sense to me to have a 100% closed mind on a subject - be it religion, be it politics, be it anything. Especially when, knowing something of history, I know how vast the number of religions are that have existed and continue to exist, and the multitude of claims they make, include a veritable cacophony of:

"We are the only true one. Do not join us and you are doomed."

Conviction is fine - but not to the extent where it encourages pig headed ignorance. And it is ironic that many a hardcore Evangelist expects everyone else to be open minded to their message - they want Muslims and Atheists and Hindus and Buddhists and so on to have open enough minds to listen to what they are selling and to actually embrace it - but they themselves don't believe in being open minded themselves and listening to the claims of others. Because of course they are wrong.

No, it is unthinkable for them to even consider that perhaps some other group may have greater validity. Or that maybe some other faith is the true one.

That smacks of double standards to me.

Because really there is a difference between:

A. "I have strong doubts about my religion being right but I will stick with it and ignore any and all such doubts doubts"

B. "I refuse to have doubts and I refuse to even consider anything that might create doubt because there is no way in hell I am wrong. The majority of people might disagree, but I. AM. NOT. WRONG!"

C. "I believe I am right, but there is a chance I am wrong, so I will listen to the arguments of others and I might learn something. Even if it takes me away from where I am now."

Naz
Originally posted by Lord Urizen


Are you at ALL open to the possibility that you can be wrong ? That your beleifs/conclusions could be false ?


No. no expression

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
It makes less sense to me to have a 100% closed mind on a subject - be it religion, be it politics, be it anything. Especially when, knowing something of history, I know how vast the number of religions are that have existed and continue to exist, and the multitude of claims they make, include a veritable cacophony of:

"We are the only true one. Do not join us and you are doomed."

Conviction is fine - but not to the extent where it encourages pig headed ignorance. And it is ironic that many a hardcore Evangelist expects everyone else to be open minded to their message - they want Muslims and Atheists and Hindus and Buddhists and so on to have open enough minds to listen to what they are selling and to actually embrace it - but they themselves don't believe in being open minded themselves and listening to the claims of others. Because of course they are wrong.

No, it is unthinkable for them to even consider that perhaps some other group may have greater validity. Or that maybe some other faith is the true one.

That smacks of double standards to me.

Because really there is a difference between:

A. "I have strong doubts about my religion being right but I will stick with it and ignore any and all such doubts doubts"

B. "I refuse to have doubts and I refuse to even consider anything that might create doubt because there is no way in hell I am wrong. The majority of people might disagree, but I. AM. NOT. WRONG!"

C. "I believe I am right, but there is a chance I am wrong, so I will listen to the arguments of others and I might learn something. Even if it takes me away from where I am now."

However, fundamentalist Christians are at war. They believe that demons inhabit the unsaved, and if they listen to anyone other then the bible or their own members, they too will be possessed.

How can anyone reason with that?

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
However, fundamentalist Christians are at war. They believe that demons inhabit the unsaved, and if they listen to anyone other then the bible or their own members, they too will be possessed.

How can anyone reason with that?

You can't. which was a point Marchello made perfectly in the Mormon thread where he said the only people that can know the Truth are the ones with Christ, and he classes himself as one of them.

Of course the people who don't "know Christ" can't ever know the truth. And since Marchello is of Christ, people who disagree logically (ABC) must be wrong because they can't possibly be of Christ. Because a person of Christ would be of the same mind as Marchello.

Honestly it is absurd. And sad. And irritating when people like that also think they have some sort of God given duty to inflict their views on the "unsaved masses." Fundamentalism, be it Islamic, Christian or whatever is a terrible thing. All the more so when the Fundamentalist is proud of their fundamentalism and view it as a virtue.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
You can't. which was a point Marchello made perfectly in the Mormon thread where he said the only people that can know the Truth are the ones with Christ, and he classes himself as one of them.

Of course the people who don't "know Christ" can't ever know the truth. And since Marchello is of Christ, people who disagree logically (ABC) must be wrong because they can't possibly be of Christ. Because a person of Christ would be of the same mind as Marchello.

Honestly it is absurd. And sad. And irritating when people like that also think they have some sort of God given duty to inflict their views on the "unsaved masses." Fundamentalism, be it Islamic, Christian or whatever is a terrible thing. All the more so when the Fundamentalist is proud of their fundamentalism and view it as a virtue.

It's a trap with no doors. I know, I used to be one of them. So, remember this, when you read the posts from people like Marchello, you are looking into the cage. They are the ones who are trapped, and you are free. When I think that way, I just feel sorry for them.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It's a trap with no doors. I know, I used to be one of them. So, remember this, when you read the posts from people like Marchello, you are looking into the cage. They are the ones who are trapped, and you are free. When I think that way, I just feel sorry for them.


I used to be Christian, and I even used to be a lil bit Conservative on many issues....(for example, I used to beleive Homosexuality was sinful and abominatable, I used to be 100% against Abortion, I used to beleive Jewish people were misguided, all that bullshit other Christians beleive, etc.)



But I was never Fundamentalist per say, and I don't think I ever thought that other people were evil just because they didn't beleive what I beleived.


But yes, looking backwards, I can see how trapped my mind was, how narrow my vision was, and how much better off I am today.

Marxman
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Why would you assume that my happiness would lead to other people's suffering? I am not talking about carnal happiness, but true happiness.

A truly joyous person wishes everyone to be happy. That is why a Bodhisattva will strive to bring happiness to others and help lead them into enlightenment. I wasn't really talking about you personally. You just said "If it makes you happy then go for it" and I was just bringing up the point that if one's happiness imposes on another's, is it worth it?

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Marxman
I wasn't really talking about you personally. You just said "If it makes you happy then go for it" and I was just bringing up the point that if one's happiness imposes on another's, is it worth it?


I don't see how Bodhisvattha imposes on another's happiness. If someone wants you to be happy, how can they impose on your happiness ? erm



It's not like Evangelism where your happiness means nothing, but your "salvation" means all. Evangelism is what imposes on your happiness and freedom of choice.


I fail to see when and where Buddhists have imposed their beleifs on all others, and damned anyone who thinks differently to Hell.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Marxman
I wasn't really talking about you personally. You just said "If it makes you happy then go for it" and I was just bringing up the point that if one's happiness imposes on another's, is it worth it?

I would agree. True happiness requires that every one be happy. If I have true happiness, and you are not happy, how can I be happy?

Marxman
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I don't see how Bodhisvattha imposes on another's happiness. If someone wants you to be happy, how can they impose on your happiness ? erm



It's not like Evangelism where your happiness means nothing, but your "salvation" means all. Evangelism is what imposes on your happiness and freedom of choice.


I fail to see when and where Buddhists have imposed their beleifs on all others, and damned anyone who thinks differently to Hell. Are you reading my post? I wasn't talking about Shakya or his beliefs in any way. I'll say it again, and slowly this time.

If.....one's....hap-ee-ness.....imposes on....another's.........is it......worth....it?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Marxman
Are you reading my post? I wasn't talking about Shakya or his beliefs in any way. I'll say it again, and slowly this time.

If.....one's....hap-ee-ness.....imposes on....another's.........is it......worth....it?

laughing

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Marxman
Are you reading my post? I wasn't talking about Shakya or his beliefs in any way. I'll say it again, and slowly this time.


I hardly ever read your posts.....




Originally posted by Marxman
If.....one's....hap-ee-ness.....imposes on....another's.........is it......worth....it?




No it's not

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
"We are the only true one. Do not join us and you are doomed."

Conviction is fine - but not to the extent where it encourages pig headed ignorance. And it is ironic that many a hardcore Evangelist expects everyone else to be open minded to their message - they want Muslims and Atheists and Hindus and Buddhists and so on to have open enough minds to listen to what they are selling and to actually embrace it - but they themselves don't believe in being open minded themselves and listening to the claims of others. Because of course they are wrong.

No, it is unthinkable for them to even consider that perhaps some other group may have greater validity. Or that maybe some other faith is the true one.

I agree. This is one area of human interaction where modern people are sorely behind the times. I'm not going to say that there aren't examples of religious intolerence in ancient times. I'm just saying that as a whole, they were way more tolerent of another person's religion. That's one of the great things about studying history. You can see that most of the time; when these ancient civilizations expanded and encountered other religions, they tolerated religious diversity. You can find evidence of Roman and Egyptian and Nubian and Indian and Greek gods being worshipped throught out the ancient worlds, and not just in their native land or by the inhabitants of those native lands. Another really great aspect of this mingling of civilizations is that two people from different religions could see aspects of their own gods in the gods of another religion. This is something we don't do today. A christian would cringe at the idea of a parallel ideology being present in Islam. And that's just willful ignorance. And it's sadly the same in the converse situation.

In ancient times, they could often see past the differences in a name and grasp the root philosophy surrounding a god or ideology. This is something that has sadly gone away in the modern practice of religion. "Love thy neighbor" has become "Love thy neighbor as long as he thinks the same person said 'love thy neighbor'".

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I agree. This is one area of human interaction where modern people are sorely behind the times. I'm not going to say that there aren't examples of religious intolerence in ancient times. I'm just saying that as a whole, they were way more tolerent of another person's religion. That's one of the great things about studying history. You can see that most of the time; when these ancient civilizations expanded and encountered other religions, they tolerated religious diversity. You can find evidence of Roman and Egyptian and Nubian and Indian and Greek gods being worshipped throught out the ancient worlds, and not just in their native land or by the inhabitants of those native lands. Another really great aspect of this mingling of civilizations is that two people from different religions could see aspects of their own gods in the gods of another religion. This is something we don't do today. A christian would cringe at the idea of a parallel ideology being present in Islam. And that's just willful ignorance. And it's sadly tyhe same in the converse situation.

In ancient times, they could often see past the differences in a name and grasp the root philosophy surrounding a god or ideology. This is something that has sadly gone away in the modern practice of religion. "Love thy neighbor" has become "Love thy neighbor as long as he thinks the same person said 'love thy neighbor'".



It was actually Christianity that began the promotion of religious intolerance. Later on, Islam adapted it.


Romans adopted Greek mythology, and even embraced Egyptian mythos into thier culture.


Pagan Romans kept Jews as slaves, but did not exterminate them simply for thier beleifs. Remember, Romans ensalved everyone, not just Jews.


Pagan Romans would execute Christians, because they saw Christians as a threat to thier own rule


Once Constantine made Christianity the official religion of Rome, all others were executed.

People of Pagan beleifs and other religions were hunted within the empire and burnt alive (and or tortured in other ways)



Spanish Inquisition repeated this trend in a much higher concentration.

Capt_Fantastic
How excatly does one "adapt" religious intolerence?

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
How excatly does one "adapt" religious intolerence?


You can't literally.....what I mean was that while Islam is the current powerhouse behind religious intolerance, Christianity was beforehand.

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You can't literally.....what I mean was that while Islam is the current powerhouse behind religious intolerance, Christianity was beforehand.

I'm pretty sure you can go all the way back to the Jews for that little nugget of inspiration. At least as far as modern western religions are concerned.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I'm pretty sure you can go all the way back to the Jews for that little nugget of inspiration. At least as far as modern western religions are concerned.


Jews were never the powerhouses than Christians and Muslims have been. Yes, Jews have done thier fair share of persection, but they have been persecuted by everyone else.


They have been persecuted by Christians, Muslims, Egyptian Pagans, Roman pagans, Greeks, Nazis, etc.


When I thnk of religious intolerance and persecution in general, Christianity and Islam inspire a much higher image than Judaism ever could.

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Jews were never the powerhouses than Christians and Muslims have been. Yes, Jews have done thier fair share of persection, but they have been persecuted by everyone else.


They have been persecuted by Christians, Muslims, Egyptian Pagans, Roman pagans, Greeks, Nazis, etc.


When I thnk of religious intolerance and persecution in general, Christianity and Islam inspire a much higher image than Judaism ever could.

Powerhouse? Who said anything about a powerhouse? I'm talking about thinking you're better for believing in your god, while everyone else is just ignorant and ill-informed.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Powerhouse? Who said anything about a powerhouse? I'm talking about thinking you're better for believing in your god, while everyone else is just ignorant and ill-informed.



Yes, Judaism had begun that trend, hasn't it ?

marcu
Am I open to the possibility of me being wrong about my faith in God?

No. I think that I have learnt enough and heard enough to believe with everything that I have...that i am on the right path. Staying on that path and moving forward is the challenging part.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by marcu
Am I open to the possibility of me being wrong about my faith in God?

No. I think that I have learnt enough and heard enough to believe with everything that I have...that i am on the right path. Staying on that path and moving forward is the challenging part.


How is it challenging if there are no doubts ?

marcu
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
How is it challenging if there are no doubts ?

Challenging in the sense that It is hard for me to live a life that is pleasing to God. The world we live in makes that real hard to do. I am a talented sinner. embarrasment

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by marcu
I am a talented sinner. embarrasment

How tragically self deprecating.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by marcu
Challenging in the sense that It is hard for me to live a life that is pleasing to God.


And what does that mean exactly ?

Why do you need to "please God" ?


Originally posted by marcu
The world we live in makes that real hard to do.



You mean the world that your God created?


Originally posted by marcu
I am a talented sinner. embarrasment



Do you intend to hurt people ?


If not, then you have nothing to worry about.

marcu
I don't ever intend to hurt people, no. But, I often do I'm afraid.

It's more than that for me though. I have a difficult time praying as well as find reading the bible very hard to do. These are the things I believe help me grow closer to the God that I serve.

By the world we live in comment...yes, the one He created. But it is us the people that make it an ugly place to live at times...because of our sinful nature.

Christians should never walk around saying that they are not sinners or that they are any better than the next guy. I sin, you sin...we all sin. No one is exempt from that.

I forgot the rest of the questions. I have to go back and read now.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by marcu
I don't ever intend to hurt people, no. But, I often do I'm afraid.

It's more than that for me though. I have a difficult time praying as well as find reading the bible very hard to do. These are the things I believe help me grow closer to the God that I serve.

Tell me - why did God create us? So we could be unhappy lumps fretting about how unworthy we are and worrying that we don't live up to God's standards?

I know my parents, at the simplest, want me to be happy, and try to work towards making that happen. They are proud of me, and encourage me, and when I make a mistake, well, are understanding. Really, the way you talk about your approach to God sound, the whole "challenging" and "it is hard to do this etc" - it... well, I guess if it makes you happy, that is what matters.

But plenty of theists I have known, known of, aren't especially happy people, so tied up in knots as they are by their faith. And I see that and say "well, what is the purpose? Do you honestly think your God is up there saying "yes, they aren't happy, but they are doing there best to live up to my standards, so it is all cool." Like always I question a claim about a loving relationship where one side seems so unconcerned about the happiness, opinion or struggles of the other.



What about the ugly things we have no power over? The diseases, the natural disasters, the people that harm us through no fault of our own. What about Biblical claims of God doing ugly things? I fail to see how a creator can be completely beyond blame for flaws in his design. Sure, we should take responsibility, but the idea of God throwing his hands up and going "hey, don't blame me, I just designed the place" brings a cynical grin to my face.



Except sin isn't what matters - is it? The fact we are by default categorised as "sinners" - despite the majority of us doing nothing that we could get charged for in a court of law. Yet we are judged by that. Or are we?

No, apparently by the view of some we get issued with a "admit you are guilty, join my club, and you go to heaven. Anything else, at all, and you are buggered." That doesn't seem about sin at all, that seems about simply pledging yourself, regardless of actual actions, to one side in the hope it is the side that will ignore ones actions because you sided with it. Doesn't sound rational really. Just some sort of childish "my club is better then yours. My club is heaven, everyone else's is hell."

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by marcu
Am I open to the possibility of me being wrong about my faith in God?

No. I think that I have learnt enough and heard enough to believe with everything that I have...that i am on the right path. Staying on that path and moving forward is the challenging part.
agreed. i myself have been through some things that have convinced me of his existence.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
agreed. i myself have been through some things that have convinced me of his existence.

What about those people who have been through things that convince them of some other God/gods existence? Are they wrong? Are you wrong? Are you both right in which case there is more then one god, thus making the idea anyone of them is all powerful or the only path to salvation questionable?

What about the people in the past who believed so strongly in gods of religions that have almost died out - they likely would have said something similar at the time - were they right at the time? Or were they always wrong?

What about those people who believed in a god of some sort, and then something happens that convinces them that that god doesn't exist, or at least not in the way presented... are they right? Wrong? All right along with the people who go continue to believe?

Rogue Jedi
not everyone is going to agree on one god to believe in. its up to the individual to decide what they believe in. i choose christ, thats just me.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
not everyone is going to agree on one god to believe in. its up to the individual to decide what they believe in. i choose christ, thats just me.

Yes, but are you of the opinion that there is but one true God, but one way to get into heaven? And if a person doesn't join with Jesus then that person is unlikely to be saved?

Either yes - in which case someone, somewhere must be wrong, or no, in which case most major religions claims they are the "one correct path" are wrong.

Boris
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
agreed. i myself have been through some things that have convinced me of his existence.

Really? Like what?

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Ofcourse, personally, this thread is meant to address Christians and Muslims, however, for the sake of being fair, I want to ask everyone this....


Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, alike (and whatever other religion you identify with)




Are you at ALL open to the possibility that you can be wrong ? That your beleifs/conclusions could be false ?

If so, why ?



If not, why not ?

Yes. Particulary because I cannot prove my religious claims, but I believe in them, and thats all that matters, I feel.

Maybe once we figure out how the Universe came to be, my religious views may become little different.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by marcu
I don't ever intend to hurt people, no. But, I often do I'm afraid.


How so ?




Originally posted by marcu
It's more than that for me though. I have a difficult time praying as well as find reading the bible very hard to do. These are the things I believe help me grow closer to the God that I serve.


That's funny, because I've read the Bible extensively, I mean I still read it today even though I don't believe in the God of the Bible. It's a very interesting collection of human history and philosophy, and it causes so much thought-provoking controversy when read in its entirety, i don't see how you would have trouble doing your reading.


Why do you find it hard to pray ? I used to pray every single day when I was Christian. I still pray even sometimes today, to "any" universal force that may be willing to listen.








Originally posted by marcu
By the world we live in comment...yes, the one He created. But it is us the people that make it an ugly place to live at times...because of our sinful nature.



Like Imperial said, what about diseases, famine, wild animals, and deadly weather conditions ? Do those not contribute to the suffering of this world ?

We are in no way responsible for the entirety of those things.




Originally posted by marcu
Christians should never walk around saying that they are not sinners or that they are any better than the next guy. I sin, you sin...we all sin. No one is exempt from that.


I agree that Christians should not walk around claiming they are better, especially many Conservative Christians who claim moral superiority (*cough* Marcello *cough* Feceman)


However, the term "sinner" means nothing to me. We all do good, and we all do bad. We all love and we all hate (to various degrees)

Why are we automatically labelled sinners when we are responsible for good doing as well ? erm




Originally posted by marcu
I forgot the rest of the questions. I have to go back and read now.


Then do so

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Boris
Really? Like what?
i only shared it with a couple of peeps here. peeps that i REALLY trust.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
i only shared it with a couple of peeps here. peeps that i REALLY trust.


I remember you told me a long time ago, but i totally forgot now...sorry embarrasment

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