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Not to be all intellectual or anything, but I am working on a multi-cultural team right now and it has gotten me thinking about the clash of cultures that goes on in POTC, and probably has a lot to do with all the mis-communications and lack of communication between key characters.

For instance, it drives me crazy how Elizabeth never talks directly to Jack about their obvious attraction to each other. She comes from a restrained British-influenced culture, and Jack's bawdy humor probably makes her more uncomfortable than we give her credit for. I know we go on and on about how Elizabeth is the only one who can seemingly match Jack's wit and wiles, but I have been reconsidering that he might set her on edge far more than she shows. She keeps up a front (a strong one at that, which matches her culture very well--- in a sense, she's just like James) around him which often forces her to ignore/spat back Jack's advances and insinuations, when sometimes I get the feeling she would react much more strongly if she knew how. (I think sometimes she's just plain terrified of him, not that he will physically harm her, but because he has such an overwhelming personality).

On the other hand, look at the communication between Will and Tia. (PS, does anyone know what creole Tia speaks? What's the mix there? the accent seems quite African to me, but it would be cool to know specifically where.) Tia talks around issues, while Will attacks them directly. He has specific question; she chooses to answer all the questions except that one.

Okay I'm just rambling now. I just think it's really interesting to pinpoint why people arent getting along there, when they have the same overall goals. It's going to be really interesting how they all learn to deal with that when they fight Beckett.

and sorry about my poor spelling on relevance. lol

I would say that Tia's accent is Haitian, meaning from Haiti and that she has some definite voodoo ties. This is interesting but I would say it's more about social class than culture. James and Liz were brought up to not show much emotion and to be proper because they're high class. Officers in the military and any relations to governors were the upper crust. Jack is obviously not upper crust, but he is intelligent and observant, which makes it hard for someone of the upper crust to talk to him since he throws off the status quo.

Will and Tia can probably talk directly because they are both lower class. In this time period, automatically being black and being a woman, Tia has two strikes against her and the fact she seems poor is the third strike. Other than her wisdom, she has nothing going for her class-wise. Will is a blacksmith. He's used to being around poor people like himself and knows how it feels to be talked down to. He can probably sympathize and relate to Tia and thus talks to her directly and openly...if somewhat a little afraid of her because she has crab claws and eyes and a dead guy in her bedroom.

I'm thinking, that since Jack seems to know how to talk to Liz, maybe that means he's from a higher class family like Liz?

^^ U know thats a great theory i know awhile back we had this discussion about this theory that indicated that Jack might be from a wealthy family because he is smart and speakes well and knows how to read and write and is smart man!

I think that Jack was living in a society much like Liz. He makes maps, his vocabulary is complexed, he can read, he is very smart. So I bet he was very well educated. He is the only person who understands the uptight society where Liz is from. He understands the preassure she is in.

There's definitely a cultural struggle! Its interesting to note that the pirate culture is one that is essentially on the fringe of society. They're mistreated, persecuted and mistrusted, when in fact, they are the more noble when compared to someone like Beckett. Who is more corrupt: a scallywag pirate, or a power hungry mogule like Beckett. Also, note the way that most of the characters have become pirates.
They've been declared outcasts from society because they did the right thing. It may not have been what society believed to be moral, but as Governor Swann says: sometimes to choose the right course demands in act of piracy. In fact, you could argue that a man like Beckett, who has all the power is the one who influenced society's perceptions of who a pirate is and why they ought to be shunned for his own personal benefit.
Moreover, if you think of the East India Trading company as the first major world wide corrporation, you'll find some interesting parallels to commercial world today.

Originally posted by Chiki Mina
I think that Jack was living in a society much like Liz. He makes maps, his vocabulary is complexed, he can read, he is very smart. So I bet he was very well educated. He is the only person who understands the uptight society where Liz is from. He understands the preassure she is in.

1. i love you sig@@@!

2. i think i have mixed feelings about this--- I do agree that Jack was probably raised in an upper class place, but it can't have been too high up or he would never have worked for Beckett at all, and certainly not doing odd jobs, as some sources suggest. If he was the firstborn of a truly upperclass influential family, he would have had family responsibilities that would prevent him from entering a navy career, unless he ran away from home, which also seems unlikely because his father would have made sure none of the offices hired him. All that to say, Jack has a clear background in all things nautical, historical, etc. However, I would be more likely to attribute his social graces to the fact that he is a chameleon and could have easily picked them up by imitation (a la alejandro in mask of zorro).
I agree that he understands the society Elizabeth has come from, although with the way her father is wrapped around her finger, we can conjecture she spent more time looking at maps and hanging out on ships than she did at finishing school. Social training hasnt stuck with her, except for the arrogance it brings.

I have to agree that Jack was probably a big part of the noble class. He not only knows how to talk to Liz, he knows how to talk to Norrington. In COTBP, Jack is the one who talks Norrington into the decisions he makes right before they reach Barbossa. I think it's interesting they keep making Jack the culture-breaker. You noticed that? The things he wears come from other cultures, he refers to exotic places, he sits in lotus position while he makes Norrington dig. Some of the other characters like to keep class the way it is.

no wonder im so in love with Jack. seriously. that's so hott. a man of the world in a true sense of the cliche. i wonder where all he has been...

He must've learned that from experience, no doubt. It's amazing on how Jack understands the struggle Liz feels to get out of a corset and roam free out in the ocean. But for that, she needs to grow up. She is a little too arrogant at times and a little snobby MO. Don't get me wrong! She is a kick ass character, but she needs to grow up a little and to have in mind that she can't get all what she wants because of her looks.

Oh and thanks, kate

It is a beautiful sig, so vibrant.

Yeah, I'd say Liz's biggest weakness isn't the fact that she's emotional. Her emotions usually drive her to do good instead of bad, but I'd say she's guilty of being over-confident a lot of the time. Take for example burning the rum and every single thing on that island. She assumes "the entire royal navy is out looking for her," so they should be there only in about an hour or so. Well, an hour with no shade, nothing to do, and especially no water could have given her a hefty dose of sun stroke. I think it's the fact that nothing really bad has happened to her yet. I'm sure losing her mom at some point was hard, but even the pirates that kidnap her seem to admire her spunk.

Reading over my last post, Kate, I don't know if it applies to culture, but there is something to be said about the importance of Liz not having her mother, whereas Will had his until he was at least 12. Regardless of whether Liz's mom was a kickass tomboy or a proper lady, she would know the social graces and impart them to Liz, so you have to wonder if Liz would be AS rebellious if her mom were alive. She still probably would, but maybe not as much. Will's not as rebellious and it could be because he had a watchful mom.

Originally posted by katelovespirate
On the other hand, look at the communication between Will and Tia. (PS, does anyone know what creole Tia speaks? What's the mix there? the accent seems quite African to me, but it would be cool to know specifically where.) Tia talks around issues, while Will attacks them directly. He has specific question; she chooses to answer all the questions except that one.

I love the relationship Tia has with Will...I TOTALLY agree with the above statement. Will is very ill tempered, anxious and just not patient. Tia is very patient and she almost drags every detail and it almost drives Will crazy.

The best part is she enjoys it.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Reading over my last post, Kate, I don't know if it applies to culture, but there is something to be said about the importance of Liz not having her mother, whereas Will had his until he was at least 12. Regardless of whether Liz's mom was a kickass tomboy or a proper lady, she would know the social graces and impart them to Liz, so you have to wonder if Liz would be AS rebellious if her mom were alive. She still probably would, but maybe not as much. Will's not as rebellious and it could be because he had a watchful mom.


mmmm... good point! seriously--- why do disney heroines never have a mother??? im trying to think of one disney girl who has had a mother... i guess sleeping beauty, but she didn't really know her. thats it i think. EVERY disney girl has an old, eccentric father and thats it: Belle, Jasmine, Jane, Ariel, Pocahontas, etc.... And of course Elizabeth. fun psychology there. hehe.

here's the problem with mothers--- like you said, they steady and tame people. Like Wendy in Peter Pan--- it was love/respect for her mom that made her come home from neverland and grow up. Disney generally doesnt pull that stunt--- they like their heroines spunky, rebellious, and scantily clad. Mothers interfere with all those things.

I was thinking of that same thing the other day! It used to be that no Disney character ever had a dad: Snow White, Cinderella, Dumbo, Bambi was separated from his for a while. I read somewhere that a lot of fairytales make the main character not have a mom because it was moms who told the stories. After people decided to tell fairytales to kids, the mom often took out the mom in the story to make her kids appreciate her a little more.

I never thought about how Will was impatient and Tia makes him wait...lol. He just seems so uncomfortable yet fascinated by her and that's how I felt about her. Like, "This chick is really weird and I can't understand a word she's saying but I WANT to understand what she's saying."

WOW!!!!! Chiki I'm in love wiff your siggy! Very deep and very tastefull.

Great thread it's been a long time since we've all sat down and thought rationally and stopped freaking out and now we're starting to have loathes of threads like this. yaaaaaay!

Ok I guess I'm sorta into the idea of Jack being kinda from the upper class. Consider the clothes he wears they're ripped and old but in your mind if u take away all the filth and little personal accessories he's added over time in your ind and you'll see that his clothes are actually...pretty good.

Probably got that from working for Becket but it still shows that he was at least from a normal class because being a privateer he didn't HAVE to wear the frilly stuff.

Jack is like a walking collage. An art project. A scrapbook. It's fascinating to me because for every argument there is for him being upper class, there's one for him being born and bred a pirate or at least some kind of criminal. do you think we'll find out, or do you think they will just tantilize us by keeping Jack's secrets? i reckon if you asked Jack he would claim to be a prince or something, since he tends to exaggerate his past...

With Will and Tia, i think Will is just a bit cocky still, and he knows Jack has the one-up on him in this situation (since Jack can understand Tia's rambling) and he hates that. This is just a theory of course, but I think in some way Will was a bit attracted to Tia (maybe in a small way the way Elizabeth is to Jack--- the mystery, the wisdom, the forbidden excitement of it) and it puts him in a state of duality, thus causing a lot of stress. he wants to be the pure, honorably fiance, but then Tia's carressing him and for heaven's sake, he's a man, so he responds in his mind, and then feels terrible about that. does that make sense?

I love what u said "He''l probably say he's a prince" LOL

Yeah he probably would! I can see him tellinh everyone a story about how he's a prince but how he always wanted to be a pirate and so he lets a monkey rule his kingdom for him and runs away on the black pearl which he single handedly made over night.


Ok LOL yeah I've been watching to many movies..that story's unlikely for anyone to tell..even Jack but he'd probably make an intresting story out of it

I agree with the Will/Tia thing. there's chemistry and attraction wether that'll play out or not.

Okay, let's try to figure out EVERYTHING that's going on in the "touch of destiny" scene. I'm wondering now if it's the most important scene in the entire movie.

1. Tia is messing with what looks like crab parts. She looks up surprised, but happy to see Jack. He says hello but freaks out a little seeing her eyeballs. But he smiles at her and they seem to be comfortable with each other. Then she sees Will...

2. This is where things get weird (other than the eyes). She freezes when she sees Will and says the famous line and his name. Will just looks confused as hell, no visible attraction yet. But Tia seems to be coming onto him. Jack raises his eyebrow at this and steers her away from him.

3. Oh my gosh! Watch what happens next! Most of us concentrate on the fact Jack says, "There won't be any knowing here...I thought I knew you." Will is leaning down like he's going to kiss Tia! I swear I'm not seeing it because I'm a J/Eer. Watch the thing. They look like they're about to kiss, but Will snaps out of it. Tia then insults Jack that he was a sucky lover. Will takes a breath and Jack repeats Tia's request to sit at the table.

4. Will seems to be smiling when he's walking over. I don't know if he's just gotten hard or what, but she starts feeling his face and he seems taken aback, but a little turned on by it. I wonder if even though Liz is sex-starved if she ever comes on to Will? But Tia turns to Jack to do business and he brings her the monkey.

5. Tia lets the monkey go and says how it's a fair payment. Monkey runs off to you know who. Will seems to have snapped out of it and is back to business and shows Tia the drawing of the key. Tia visibly seems upset by the drawing, but knows what it is. She immediately asks Jack why the compass won't take him to it. I think she knows exactly why Jack wants the key. Jack has a guilty look on his face. He says, "Maybe, why?" Tia laughs at him and accuses him oh so famously of either not knowing what he wants, or wanting and yet not wanting to want something. Will seems surprised Jack got the compass from Tia.

6. Tia explains the key opens a chest and asks Will if the chest is what he seeks. (Interesting) Will has a look like, "I don't know what the hell's going on anymore." The crew asks what's inside.

7. Ah. The infamous "what vexes all men" section. The crew lean forward, knowing something interesting is going to be said and Tia gives an exciting opening to Davy's life. "Until he met the one thing that vexes all men." Will here has this big grin on his face and asks what vexes all men. I've always found it strange that he bothers to ask when everyone else seems to have at least a guess. Tia strokes his hand but he's still not getting it. Jack gets fed up with the stupid answers and says the obvious.

8. Tia says Davy fell in love and Will's eyes seem to flinch, almost as if he has a secret. I don't think this is about Tia, but maybe it's making him think of Liz, whom he possibly forgot about a few seconds ago. The woman is described as "changing, harsh, and untamable as the sea." She says, "him never stopped loving her," and it cuts to Will who doesn't look like he's enjoying himself anymore. He asks, "What exactly did he put in the chest" rather impatiently. And this is Will, ladies. He's not an ass. He's getting upset by the love story for whatever reason and tries to get Tia to get to the point.

9. The reveal! It's Davy's heart, as Tia says so tenderly. She explains the rest of it and Will stands up and accuses Jack of knowing the story the whole time, which we know he did. He doesn't seem mad per se, but he seems annoyed with Jack. Jack admits he didn't know where the chest was, but know they do, so it's a good thing they came. Jack is getting anxious to leave, but Tia asks to see his hand. Jack looks scared.

10. Anybody know why Jack tries to make light of his black spot by saying, "My eyesight's just as good as ever, just so you know?" Tia goes back into the hut, mumbling. She comes back with the jar of dirt and Jack looks confused, but Tia's serious. She says, "If you don't want it, give it back." Jack cradles it and refuses, which makes Tia smile. Will says it seems they have a need to find the Flying Dutchman with a resigned smile on his face. Maybe this is his attempt to be a little nicer to her after he lost patience with her earlier.

Maybe all those sections will help someone gather some insight.

yes... i do agree this is probably the most important, or telling, scene in the film as far as what will happen later on.

1. crab claws--- i've a feeling we'll see more crabs.

I definately agree that Will is, perhaps without meaning to be, attracted to Tia. She has a rather overwhelming personality, and i doubt any man would be able to really escape her wiles. she also seems incredibly proud/pleased that she made a man love her enough to cut his heart out. she's good at this seduction thing. black teeth or not, she gets what she wants.

here's my main question point--- what is the vibe between Jack and Tia, really? Because the look on Jack's face when he walks in suggests to me that he was, at one time, essentially man-candy for Tia rather than in a relationship with her. Jack remains relatively nervous and toned-down during the meeting, and he's got shifty eye syndrome. Is this because they parted on bad terms, or simply because Jack knows how powerful/unpredictable Tia can be? Or because he knows she is a goddess but doesn't want her to tell everyone else? Or because he is anxious to explain to (or hide from) her the trouble he is really in?

I think it's clear that Tia comes on to Will because his "destiny" means something personal to her--- whether that's davy's freedom, or her own freedom.

I also think Will sort of gets Tia and thats why he doesnt venture a guess on 'what vexes all men'... he doesnt have time to play her games and riddles, he's an action man, he needs to keep things on track. Jack, despite knowing the story and all the correct answers, allows Tia to have her moment.

I also think a part that is important (but often overlooked as comic relief) is Ragetti's line about "the dichotomy of good and evil." thats essentially what the whole trilogy is about--- how do you define good and evil? Can someone be good while still doing bad things, and vice versa? Are the characters who appear to be good (in society's eyes) actually doing the worst things/ have the worst motives? who are the good guys? etc. the fact that the phrase was thrown in there, i think, foreshadows that Will's destiny will revolve around that question a fair amount.
because think about it--- what vexes all of US? deciding who is good and bad, which actions (ahem, kisses) are good or bad, trying to figure out who has the good heart underneath and who has an evil streak, etc. so what vexes us is clearly exactly what Ragetti said, while in the film, everyone is clearly vexed by a woman (and generally its the same one, haha).

willothewisp --

As for Jack's "My eyesight's as good as ever, just so you know..." this is how I interpreted it.

The Black Spot is a bit of skin rotted away, and I dunno why I thought this, but... you know Jack, he's stereotypically always thinking about sex. And if a bit of Jack is rotting away, well then Jack's essence is rotting away, and what's Jack's essence? Oh yeah... *that*. And I suppose we've always connected *that* and eyes, ("Don't do that, you'll go blind!" So, if *that*'s rotting away, and Jack's going away, he's decaying before their very eyes!

"Well my eyesight's as good as ever, just so you know..." Jack's saying, it isn't that big of a deal, remember folks I'm Cap'n Jack Sparrow! A measley little rot isn't going to harm me *there*!

Does that make any sense? Or am just trying to explain something funny for me and it's all turning out badly?

No, that explains it! Thanks. I didn't think he was talking just to be talking.

Kate, I didn't think that maybe Will was also resisting Tia in some way by not playing her games. True, Jack is very low-key and it may be a bit of mistrust and the fact he knows she's unpredictable. Keep in mind too, he's going there for help. He's not going to go in and demand it pointing a gun to her head. He's going to be fairly nice and charming to her to get her to do what he wants, and that's give them some clue on what to do. That's how I interpreted Jack's behavior. Plus, he's seeing Barbossa's stuff laying around, gets called out about the compass not working for him....nothing's really going his way right at the moment. He's probably not in a good mood.

it seems that liz and Tia are almost the same person sorta. Tia loved Davy, Liz loved Will. Rumors had it that tia left Davy for another sailor possibly Jack, Davy became a monster, liz is falling for another man too (Jack). Will stabd the heart and becomes the new Davy. That is sorta how Tia put the story only talking about Calypso, Will seems to listen and it is kinda like forshadowing his love life. That is probably another reason Tia came on to him he is just like Davy, and she is supposably Calypso. That is another reason why I think Will is in a trance taht he almost kisses her because of his 'destiny' I hope that made some sense but that is kinda how i see it

I always thought that Jack said "my eye sight as good as ever just so you know" because gibbs and pintel and reghetti made the "blackspot!" and twirl around like it is contagious and Jack saw them. But i like what you said siriuswriter it makes perfect sense.

jackismyboo, do you think then that Will is "fated" to be with Tia? You said that could explain why he almost kisses her because of his destiny. You think maybe he has this feeling that he's supposed to be with her? That would be very interesting.

Sorta! She is Calypso and he is destined to be the new Davy. She had loved Davy. and love doesn't fade so quickly i mean if it did Davy wouldn't of tore his heart out for her. She is Calypso and she was or still is davy's lover and she knows that Will is going to become the new fishface. So yea I think Will is kinda fated to be with tia in the end. He may love Liz now but i think in the end Calypso will become his new lover. It makes sense to me idk about you but ted and terry one of them said that the end somehow the audience will agree who the couple is or in this case couples.

What's that about the couples? They said at the end of DMC you know who the couple(s) is going to be? That's very strange because in their commentary, they're very vague about Liz's feelings towards both Will and Jack and they actually commend Will for being more concerned about making Liz feel better by asking if anything could be done, although they both kind of laugh and say he didn't expect to actually have to do anything.

Well, on a non-J/E view of the parallel between Davy, Calypso, Will and Elizabeth, it could be that while DJ and Calypso made poor choices, that Will and Elizabeth will figure out a way to over-come their issues and to make the choice to fight for what they have together.


I know, I know...most of you think that what Will and Elizabeth have together is absolutely zip, but not everyone feels that way. And actually, their battle to save their relationship would be culturally relevant in today's society, where people divorce or break-up with each other over even smaller problems than what Will and Elizabeth face.


If they can over-come all those problems and still love each other, it gives hope to the idea that maybe the struggle and pain of relationships is really worth it in the end.


Does any of that make sense?


About the curiosity scene, did any of you get the idea that Jack may have been slightly jealous of Tia's reaction to Will? I don't mean jealous because he has romantic feelings for her, but jealous simply because he was basically brushed aside in favor of Will? Or was Jack alarmed by Tia's reaction to Will's presence?


Apologies for any spelling and grammar mistakes.

i think Jack was more alarmed than jealous. he's captain jack sparrow, at a snap of his fingers Tia could probably be back in his arms. However, he's probably seen the "touch of destiny" act before on the part of Tia, and doesnt want her to turn fortune teller when he's in a rush.

I think there was a little bit more blow to his pride than actual jealousy. He's Captain Jack Sparrow. Women are supposed to go nuts over him and here's Tia flirting with Will the eunuch, in Jack's mind. That whole, "I thought I knew you," seems to be a cry for attention that gets shot down.

I didn't mean romantic jealousy...I meant, do you think he's jealous that the attention is off of him for even a split second? Of course, he could just be alarmed...he seems awfully quick to try to seperate Will and Tia from each other.


At any rate...I had something else to say and I totally blanked on it. Hmmm....Old age does that to you.

Being hungry for attention from Tia would bring about a different reaction than alarm, I would think. He seems very concerned about the possibility of Will and Tia. Of course, he's probably just trying to keep things on task and also protect Will. Tia's weird, no question, and if Jack couldn't handle her, I bet anything he doesn't think Will could. Since he came with the intent of getting information that would save him, he's probably just trying to keep everyone on track rather than, "I'm Jack, look at me me ME."

i really doubt Jack is an attention craver! I think like you said he saw the Will and Tia connection and decided to end it.

The look on his face was " what?" like he knows something and also a tinge of jealousy

Remember what Jack says before he enters Tia's cabin. He remarks about how untrustworthy she is. Essentially, she'd stab a friend in the chest, rather than in the back. He doesn't trust her farther than he can throw her. That being said, while Will has certainly come a long way in DMC in terms of learning who to trust and who not to, he's still a babe in the woods in terms of experience when compared to Jack.
I think it's fairly safe to say that Tia is a free agent in terms of who's side she is on, and that she can bend peope to her will. My opinion is that Jack understands that Tia has something up her sleeve when it comes to Will, and he's attempting to prevent it. Recall that Will is Bootstrap Bill's son, a man whom Jack essentially was at one time, a very dear friend to. While Will and Jack may not always see eye to eye, for the most part, they have each other's backs when the ocassion calls for it.
But that interpretation works only if you're of the opinion that Tia Dalma cannot be trusted and that she's manipulating the fates of the key players to accomplish her own selfish goals.

Well, it even works if you believe she can be trusted. Jack and Will both gain from seeing her. Jack to learn the location of the key and Will to get some background information that will eventually help him get Liz out of jail. Tia coming on to Will is not helping things along and is making what should be a simple detour into a complicated one.
For now, I don't interpret Tia as evil, but as fickle. She seems like a good person but only to a certain point. Jack doesn't seem to like that but he doesn't know anyone else who can help at this point.
Ha ha, you could go the Jack-is-so-honorable route that a lot of people tend to go and say Jack breaking Will and Tia up is actually out of respect for Liz since she is engaged to Will at this point. But that's not my opinion.....lol.

I agree, savvysparrow. I don't think Will and Jack are friends per se, but they have a respect for the other one and acknowledge the fact they are stronger together than they are apart. Throw Liz in there and the three of them are unstoppable.