Ultimecia VS Sephiroth

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draxx_tOfU
can squall's foe defeat cloud's foe?

who's the more powerful boss?

Superboy Prime
No idea...Sephiroth is the better fighter while Ultimecia is the more powerful magician...Meh. I'll give it to Sephiroth.

Cloud_VII
Seifer Sephiroth

TricksterPriest
Great. Too ludicrously overrated bosses. I'm gonna say Ultimecia. Definitely the harder boss. and just to be an *******, she curbstomps Sephiroth. stick out tongue

Draco69
Ultimecia. She had total control over the timestream. She wins.

BackFire
Ultimecia was the worst boss of all FF games. You could one shot her even easier than you could sephiroth.

Plus she was developed horribly "Hey here's some witch in the future we're mentioning now for the first time, she's got control of time or something, go kill her now, she's the boss, go"

Just awful.

StyleTime
I'll go with Ultimecia.

Draco69
Originally posted by BackFire
Ultimecia was the worst boss of all FF games. You could one shot her even easier than you could sephiroth.

Plus she was developed horribly "Hey here's some witch in the future we're mentioning now for the first time, she's got control of time or something, go kill her now, she's the boss, go"

Just awful.

They should have just stuck with Edea. She was MUCH cooler and her outfit was spectacular IMO.

draxx_tOfU
Originally posted by Draco69
They should have just stuck with Edea. She was MUCH cooler and her outfit was spectacular IMO.

co-sign...

the part where you could control her, during the esthar thingy, i always had her at critical level just to use her limit break...ice strike!

anyway, i have to go with the harder boss, ultimecia...

BackFire
Originally posted by Draco69
They should have just stuck with Edea. She was MUCH cooler and her outfit was spectacular IMO.

Yeah, I was getting into Edea, thought she was turning into a good villain, then they shit on her and gayed her out. Then I was like "Well, guess that means Seifer is the main villain, that's cool, makes sense, the villain is usually the counterpoint to the hero, which Seifer was" then it turned out to be some witch from the future that was introduced about an hour before you fight her, in one longwinded dialogue. Made me sad.

ESB -1138
At least Sephiroth was well developed before you faced him. They just threw in Ultimecia. You knew nothing about her. Edea would have been much better.

Darkstorm Zero
Not to mention the whole time paradox that happened at the end of the game... even though FF8 was my fave out of the FF series

Superboy Prime
As much as I hate Sephiroth and his cliche...I hate Ultimecia more.

Violent2Dope
Ultimecia is BULLS**T! Edea and Seifer were cool, I was convinced one of them would be the last boss, but no, the developers thought it necessary to make the last boss some sorceress no ones ever heard of and introduce her damn near the end of the game. As for who would win, although Ultimecia's magic is better, Sephiroth's isnt too shabby and has vastly superior combat abilities. I also found her easier. So Seph ftw.

grey fox
What would have been better is if Seifer had followed squall and his gang somehow ( " I wont stop until your dead ! " ) and then usurped Ultemecias power ( "Foolish boy..my control of the the time stream...it's..interrupted..nooooo" ) it would have been a sweet twist ending and saved all the bulls*it with Griever....

Burning thought
by the sounds of it both of em are crap, seifer looks ridiculous and the girl is presented badly...pfff FF "points to ass, then runs from any fanboys" Happy Dance

ESB -1138
FFIV basically did the same thing. You think the last boss will be Golbez but then you learn about Zemus. But the thing is that they just didn't spring it on you at the last minute. Even before Golbez became a good guy you learned of Zemus when FuSoYa joins your team.

Pyron_is_God
Ultimecia wins.

Ivalice
Imo sephiroth.

Terryc250
Which Sephiroth? Safer Sephiroth would be close, AC Sephiroth will win

Dark-Jaxx
No he wouldn't. As shitty as she is, she is immensley powerful.

Terryc250
Shes powerful, but AC Sephiroth is much faster, has TK that can immobilize her, and the power of the planet, what will she beable to do to defend against that?

SHM
Interesting to know that no one here paid attention to the story of FFVIII while playing it.



Everyone here who said Edea was a good villain, is automatically stating that Ultimecia was a good villain. Because she was Edea during the first 2 discs of the game.


And about the fight itself... One of them have the power to transform an entire planet in a dead vessel, and use it to travel the universe.
The other have the power to absorb all existence and become God.

It's not hard to know who is stronger.

Pyron_is_God
Neither. They both lose.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Terryc250
Shes powerful, but AC Sephiroth is much faster, has TK that can immobilize her, and the power of the planet, what will she beable to do to defend against that? Power of the planet? Ultimecia has the power of time itself. Time>>>>planet.

Also, I was never really a fan of Edea. Seifer was far better than both IMO.

Pyron_is_God
Damn straight.

Darkstorm Zero
Time Compression FT 'f'ing W.

Ultimecia curbs...

Terryc250
Too bad she needed a machine and another person to do that, wasn't her own direct power, she cannot do it at will.

Pyron_is_God
This is true.

Now, Seifer...he can cause holes to open in reality with his fights as seen when he killed Odin, Gilgamesh was let into the world.

Darkstorm Zero
Not in the future she didn't...

Her ultimate form,s words proved it.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Terryc250
Too bad she needed a machine and another person to do that, wasn't her own direct power, she cannot do it at will. She needed to use Elone to achieve that form. Like how Seph needed Meteor to become a God. Only Seph failed of course.

Terryc250
Either way she cannot compress time instantly, Sephiroth TKs her and tosses her into the negative lifestream

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Terryc250
Either way she cannot compress time instantly, Sephiroth TKs her and tosses her into the negative lifestream She had already compressed time though...

Terryc250
so then how does she lose to squall and co?

Dark-Jaxx
Same way Sephiroth does. PIS.

Terryc250
Yeah but Sephiroth lost cuz he didn't use his powers (and PIS)

Dark-Jaxx
Ultimecia just lost due to big PIS.

Oh, and he did use his powers as Safer Sephiroth, who fought a party, as did Ult.

and in AC, he just lost to Cloud.

Terryc250
He was also holding back Holy at the same time, what powers does time compressing give her anyway, if Sephiroth travelled to her time where she is, would he have a chance of beating her much like the party did?

Dark-Jaxx
No, just like they should not have. She basically became a living God of the world, she SHOULDN'T have lost.

Terryc250
But what powers does she gain ?

SHM
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Also, I was never really a fan of Edea. Seifer was far better than both IMO.

Seifer was just Ultimecia's side-kick. A secondary villain with a big mouth, and always loses to the party.

Pyron_is_God
So did Gilgamesh.
Doesn't mean he was a thousand times cooler than Exdeath.

Burning thought
Kain wins this with ease

SHM
Originally posted by Terryc250
But what powers does she gain ?

To start, she absorbed the powers of all sorceresses in history, including sorceress Adel. And Adel(in her prime) could destroy that entire era with just the power of her mind(as stated by Odine).

And that's just ONE of her powers.

Pyron_is_God
Can I see the exact quote from Odine?

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Burning thought
Kain wins this with ease Could he beat Seph? Very possibly. Ult? No way.

Burning thought
"shrug"

if Ult is fast, indestructable, immune to soul stealing/blood drain among other things then maye not

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Burning thought
"shrug"

if Ult is fast, indestructable, immune to soul stealing/blood drain among other things then maye not She's pretty much God when time compressed.

Burning thought
but you said "when", how about when it isnt?

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Burning thought
but you said "when", how about when it isnt? Her only real feat when not time compressed is the ability to possess powerful Sorceresses in the past. So we have no way of knowing.

Terryc250
If she was that powerful its kind of weird how she loses to the party even with PIS, i mean even in Marvel who writes tons of horrible PIS stories because of their multiple writers still wouldn't write a story of Xmen beating the Living Tribunal, because it simply doesn't make sense, Time Compressed Ultimecia who can simply "destroy eras" with a thought losing to the FF8 party clearly doesn't make sense, and i would expect something better from the Square Enix company who are famed for writing brilliant stories.

Dark-Jaxx
In Marvel, Spiderman beat Firelord. In Zelda, Link beat Ganon, who outclasses him in all ways, even speed. Shit like that happens all the time.

Terryc250
Firelord isnt a god, neither is Ganon, they dont come remotely close to destroying entire eras with a thought.

Dark-Jaxx
Ganon has the power of a world making God. Yeah, he is a God, not THE God, buit a God, and he still is much greater in every way than Link.

Spiderman<<<<<FFVIII party, so it works.

Hell, I can find a scan of Thing putting Galactus on his ass.

Ivalice
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx


Hell, I can find a scan of Thing putting Galactus on his ass. Circumstances much? Shit like that happens, how about thanos putting LT on his ass?

Terryc250
Thing has put Galactus on his ass? Can you show me? Galactus' power varies by how starving he is, he has no set power.. if he got hurt by the Thing he must've been about deathly starving.

And Link has the Master Sword which can take Ganon out.

Lazy MFer
I think Ultimecia takes this.

SHM
Ultimecia wasn't God. She would become God after absorbing all time and space, but she was defeated before that.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Her only real feat when not time compressed is the ability to possess powerful Sorceresses in the past. So we have no way of knowing.

Wrong. Everything Edea can do, Ulti can do too. She gave her powers to Edea in the past, remember?


Pyron_is_God, I will search for the quote and show you. But later, when I have more time to search for it.

Terryc250
Ahhh.. so Ultimecia never did become god.. that explains how she lost to the party, means Sephiroth has a chance of beating her as well.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Ivalice
Circumstances much? Shit like that happens, how about thanos putting LT on his ass? He was slightly amped. enough to put Big G on his ass logically? No.

And even with the Master Sword, Ganon outshines Link in any and all areas. Hell, at base(non-Triforce) he wasn't killed by a stab to the head with it!!!

Terryc250
Ganon doesn't compare to someone who can destroy era's with just a thought.. Link beating Ganon due to PIS.. yeah that could be believable

Squall and friends beating a god who destroys entire eras with a just thought? Mmm that doesn't seem like something Square would write, you sure she actually gained that power when she fought the party? Maybe the party stopped her BEFORE she was able to reach that power.

Dark-Jaxx
Time was already compressed though. To my knowledge, that was all she needed to become that form.

SHM
Found Odine's quote.



Adel was still awekening/recovering. After she was fully awake/recovered, she would destroy everything(not with only the power of her mind, but she could do it anyway).

Terryc250
Ah so she never quite got that power, she was killed before that.. kinda similar to Sephiroth could've absorbed the lifestream if he wasn't defeated before that.

SHM
Originally posted by Terryc250
Ah so she never quite got that power, she was killed before that.. kinda similar to Sephiroth could've absorbed the lifestream if he wasn't defeated before that.

Actually, Adel have that power. She didn't use it in the game, because she wasn't 100% when the party fought her. She was sealed during years and years, after all.
It's like when Zack broke free of the Mako tube in Nibel, after 3 years of being inside it. He wasn't 100% at the moment, so he needed to rest before beginning his journey to Midgar.

But Ultimecia absorbed ALL the power of ALL sorceresses in history. And that means she CAN destroy an entire era. And that is JUST ONE of her powers.


Ultimecia is what Sephiroth wants to be when he grow up.

Pyron_is_God
Yeah. I was totally impressed when she used a machine to go back in time and when the party had to help her get Time Compression started. Not even Kuja kinda helping with Ultimecia manipulating them into helping her. They just had to because she failed repeatedly to accomplish it on her own.

At the end of the day she's less interesting than Kefka, Yu Yevon, Kuja, Sephiroth...She still beats out Exdeath though.

SHM
Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
Yeah. I was totally impressed when she used a machine to go back in time and when the party had to help her get Time Compression started. Not even Kuja kinda helping with Ultimecia manipulating them into helping her. They just had to because she failed repeatedly to accomplish it on her own.

1st, Ultimecia manipulated the party. She made Rinoa enter in a state of coma, forcing Squall to take her to the Space Station, where she could free Adel.

2nd, this is a FIGHT. Who cares if she can manipulate people or not. It's about her powers we have to talk about.



Thankyou for giving your opinion about something that don't have anything to do with this thread.

Pyron_is_God
Yep.



You're very much welcome.

Terryc250
Ok so this battle is Ultimecia at 100% (Which she never reached) vs Sephiroth?

SHM
Originally posted by Terryc250
Ok so this battle is Ultimecia at 100% (Which she never reached) vs Sephiroth?

Ultimecia at 100%, is after TC started and after she absorbed the power of all sorceresses in history.

It was time and space itself that she failed to absorb, not the power of the sorceresses.

Terryc250
So Ultimecia DID have the power to destroy entire eras with a thought when she lost to the party? If so, then i'm truely dissapointed in Square-Enix for writing a story that makes no sense.

Dark-Jaxx
Well...to be honest, fvck Disk 4 of FFVIII. They ruined what was IMO potentially the best FF.

Ivalice
Originally posted by Terryc250
So Ultimecia DID have the power to destroy entire eras with a thought when she lost to the party? If so, then i'm truely dissapointed in Square-Enix for writing a story that makes no sense. No no no, ultimecia will fall in love with sephiroth and they will take over the universe and live happily ever after.

VinCon01
Essentially, Ultimecia failing was do more to Fate than anything. The theory I've seen that makes the most sense is that Ultimecia, while technically in one of her most powerful forms, was at her absolute weakest while facing the party because she was expending the energy to complete Time Compression and absorb all of time and space. It's not like Fate fired off giant laser beams that killed her or anything, but it's the idea that the party, through a series of events, was put into a position where they would face her at her weakest moment.

Aside from that, if Rinoa had some kind of control over her powers by that point, she could theoretically give the FFVIII party something to hit Ultimecia with, seeing as both of them contain the power of every Sorceress to ever exist (Ultimecia has it because she's the last sorceress of her time, and Rinoa inherited her powers from Edea, who inherited them from Ultimecia).

Man, been a while since I was here.

Pyron_Knight
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Well...to be honest, fvck Disk 4 of FFVIII. They ruined what was IMO potentially the best FF.

Pretty much.

So, let me get this straight...

Seifer is one of the three main characters taking up the cover of the game.

..the epic opening of the game features him fighting Squall.

All through the game we're told Squall and Seifer are destined to fight.

We have one final boss fight with him, he throws Rinoa to Adel and that's all she wrote except for the ending.

No dramatic showdown between teh two rivals, no even rmeote closure or clue on what happened between the last two times we see him...
It was bullshit writing by Square.

VinCon01
When are we told that they're destined to fight? I don't recall a match between the two ever referred to as "destined." They certainly referred to a legendary SeeD destined to fight Ultimecia, but I never recall anything of the sort regarding Seifer.




Blegh. I agree with the lack of dramatic showdown. That was pretty much the thing that I was waiting for throughout the entire game (Since he became a villain, anyway). All I get is a boss fight (Not even one-on-one...Heck, not even that much if you got Odin)?

Superboy Prime
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Pretty much.

So, let me get this straight...

Seifer is one of the three main characters taking up the cover of the game.

..the epic opening of the game features him fighting Squall.

All through the game we're told Squall and Seifer are destined to fight.

We have one final boss fight with him, he throws Rinoa to Adel and that's all she wrote except for the ending.

No dramatic showdown between teh two rivals, no even rmeote closure or clue on what happened between the last two times we see him...
It was bullshit writing by Square.

Wha?

I think you're exagerating. We fight Seifer more than enough times IMO. You fight him by your lonesome by the end of disc 1--in which Squall pretty much gets even with Seifer. Then we see Squall and Seifer engage against each other as leaders of their respective Gardens. Then they fight by the end of disc 2 and we see a final showdown in disc 3 where he finally comes to his senses once FUJIN actually talks to him about how much he has changed. Seifer was never the main enemy, he was just Squall's rival and he played that role perfectly, even becoming Edea's knight as Squall became Rinoa's. By the end of FFVIII we see Seifer fishing peacefully with his 2 best friends and we see him actually smile when he sees Balamb Garden floating by.

Dark-Jaxx
The final fight should have been one on one.

Pyron_Knight
Dr. Kadowaki: Seifer is with them, right? You said yourself. There's no way you can run from him... It's kind of like your destiny to face him. ...Looks like it's now or never! You've come this far already. What is there to think about? You're not gonna run away are you?

Besides, if you examine the relationship as closely as I do and write an essay on the topic like I did, you see very clearly how the two are destined...Seifer's dream twisted by Fate comes to fruition but, unlike his dream, the roles are reversed with Squall as the Sorceress' Knight.

Pyron_Knight
Quistis: I guess I was right. You and Seifer are in a class of your own. You both have amazing strength and potential.


This is my documentation of the character development, or lack thereof, of two characters from Square’s game Final Fantasy VIII. Obviously the characters are Squall Leonhart and Seifer Almasy. As you can see, their faces, along with Rinoa Heartily’s, are featured most prominently on the cover of the game. Coupled with the dramatic opening FMV of the game you might guess these three are closely tied and will be of major importance through the story. You’d be right but not as right as you thought because at the end, the whole Squall/Seifer relationship was kicked to the curb and we had possibly the most anticlimactic conclusion in the history of video games.

But let’s get beyond that. I want to cover the course of these two character’s progression through the game and analyze the key point most fans identify: they are total opposites. Everything from their cards to the various official art of the two seem to support this theory. I maintain that, while they are definitely not alike, they start of relatively the same and it is their build-up in the game that makes them the opposites.

I hope I’ll be able to illustrate my point in this little write-up. Enjoy!

1. The Beginning

Quistis: Yes! That's right! Seifer was a kid who always needed to be the center of attention. But Squall always used to ignore him... But eventually they would end up fighting. Squall could have easily walked away from it, but always took up the challenge. He should've just ignored him, but Squall, almost in tears, would say... 'I gotta do my best by myself. Or else I won't be able to see Sis'.

This is basically the best summation of what we know of young Squall’s and Seifer’s early life. They were orphans, raised by their Matron Edea. Seifer sought confrontation as way to fill his own self-esteem void while Squall attempted to shut out everything for his own emptiness after he lost “Sis”. Perfect demonstration of the “polar opposites” in these two. Though it’s good to note even with Squall’s attempt at detachment, he would not back down from Seifer. He was compelled by something far stronger than he and so was probably Seifer. We’ll see this laid out more later on.

2. Disk 1
So now we actually get to the start of the game and well, where do Seifer and Squall stand emotionally?

Seifer: Who cares. This must be your first real battle. You scared?

Squall: ...I don't know. I try not to think about it.

Seifer: I love battles. I fear nothing. The way I look at it, as long as you make it out of a battle alive, you're one step closer to fulfilling your dream.

Squall: What!? Your dream?

Seifer: You have one too, don't you?

Squall: ...Sorry, but I'm gonna pass on that subject.

Not much emotional progression over those years in the Garden. Seifer still seeks out conflict as a means to an end while Squall simply backs away from it, denying the thoughts that might disturb his, perhaps not happy, but peaceable little world.

Seifer leads Squad B into Dollet but defies orders which results in his failing the SeeD Exam...

Seifer: D'you hear about the communication tower in Dollet? We would've been heroes if it weren't for that withdraw order.

Quistis: You were only looking for a fight.

Seifer forever seeks glory and appreciation and by all accounts someone of his notable skill should receive it. But that’s the ironic twist of the game that I’ll also go into further down the line.

One thing that should be stressed is that, however strained their relationship was, Squall and Seifer were not mortal enemies from the start.

Seifer: You want to wreak some havoc too, don't you?

Squall: It's a good opportunity to test my training. Thanks to you, I feel like I can take on anyone. Even if they do fight dirty, like you.

Seifer: You'll thank me when the time comes.

I wouldn’t say they are bosom buddies but they’re far from disliking one another at this point.

We also get a good look into Squall’s mind at this point where he has a little discussion with Quistis.

Squall: Are you done yet...? I don't wanna talk about it. What am I supposed to say about other people's problems?

Quistis: I'm not asking you to say anything. I just want you to listen.

Squall: Then go talk to a wall.

Quistis: Aren't there times when you want to share feelings with someone?

Squall: Everyone has to take care of themselves? Idon't want to carry anyone's burden.


Quistis: Squall. It's not like everyone can get by on their own, you know?

Squall: ...Says who?

An unlikeable jackass yes. Much like Seifer. This is why I say the two are actually pretty alike to start off with. Both simply output their own internal angst in different ways with Squall being stoically unfriendly while Seifer is “in-your-face” unfriendly.

So time passes and due to his violation of orders, Seifer was to be disciplined. Hearing about Squall’s and the other mission to go help Rinoa and the Forest Owls, he breaks out of Garden and attacks the President of Galbadia. Holding the man hostage, Seifer is confronted by “The Sorceress.”

???: ...Poor, poor boy...

Seifer: Stay away from me!

Edea: Such a confused little boy. Are you going to step forward? Retreat? You have to decide.

Seifer: Stay back!

Edea: The boy in you is telling you to come. The adult in you is telling you to back off. You can't make up your mind. You don't know the right answer. You want help, don't you? You want to be saved from this predicament.

Seifer: Shut up!

Edea: Don't be ashamed to ask for help. Besides, you're only a little boy.

Seifer: I'm not... Stop calling me a boy.

Edea: You don't want to be a boy anymore?

Seifer: I am not a BOY!

Edea: Come with me to a place of no return. Bid farewell to your childhood.

This little bit of dialog is key in examining my personal feelings on how Squall and Seifer are very different. These quotes in particular...

The boy in you is telling you to come. The adult in you is telling you to back off.

My childhood dream, fulfilled.


Seifer is not a little boy. He’s a full-grown man and that adult in him is best cited as logic or reality... Perhaps his natural instincts cautioning him to the danger. However, his “ROMANTIC dream”, his fantasy ever since he was a youth exerts a stronger pull than anything else and he heads off with Ultimecia/Edea.

Later on before the party reaches Galbadia, Squall has a very nice bit of insight that further distinguishes him from Seifer.

Squall: (Think what you want. ...Reality isn't so kind. Everything doesn't work out the way you want it to. That's why...As long as you don't get your
hopes up, you can take anything... You feel less pain. Anyway, whatever wish you have is none of my business

Squall’s darker view on reality is perhaps not accurate but far more grounded than Seifer’s “dream”. Seifer would throw away everything for that dream, the chance to escape the reality and find what he longed for. Squall will push away all notions of a dream, all notions of what isn’t reality out of fear those things will hurt him.


Squall also has an interesting though, disagreeing with the “Polar Opposites” idea...

Rinoa: Any kind of encouragement will make...

Squall: (That's just to ease your mind. Am I the only one who thinks that? No, I'm sure Seifer...)

So it seems, or at least Squall thins it is, that encouragement and perhaps hope itself are just bandaids on the gaping wound of reality. Oh god...I’m gonna throw up on the wieght of my own emo analogies...

Anyway, Squall seems to think Seifer would prefer a more grounded approach to things, like himself. Though I tend to disagree.

And the party progresses to Galbadia Garden where we hear Seifer was executed. Some interesting insight into both of them...

Quistis: I don't have any good memories of him. I've seen some troubled children, but he was beyond troubled. Well, he wasn't really a bad guy.

Rinoa: I...really liked him. He was always full of confidence, smart... Just by talking to him, I felt like I could take on the world.

Selphie: Your boyfriend?

Rinoa: I don't really know. I... I think I was in love. I wonder how he Felt...?

Selphie: Do you still like him?

Rinoa: If I didn't, I wouldn't be talking about it. It was last summer... I was 16. Lots of fond memories..

I always found this interesting. Rinoa lists Seifer’s confidence as an attractive quality and by all means Seifer was very confident, bordering on...or who are we kidding? He was very arrogant.

She does a complete 180 in putting her heart out to Squall who, again let’s not kid ourselves, is almost exactly like his father. Whatever his attitude to the contrary, Squall is as scared of rejection and loneliness as Laguna was with Julia.

Speaking on that...


Squall: (I liked him... wasn't really a bad guy... He was one of us... Seifer... You've just become just a memory. Will they... Will they talk about me this way if I die, too? Squall was this and that. Using past tense, saying whatever they want? So this is what death is all about......Not for me. I won't have it!!!)

Squall really just doesn’t want to be left behind...He may also be scared of death though that’s not the root of his issues and is more like a needle on the cactus of his torment.

Okay I’ll stop that now.

However, as we all know, Seifer is not dead. He’s alive, well, and literally “living the dream”.


Seifer: Well, this is how it turned out.

Squall: So, you've become the sorceress' lap dog?

Seifer: I preferred to be called her knight. This has always been my dream.

Squall defeats the new Sorceress’ Knight and is rewarded by being impaled by magical ice.

Pyron_Knight
3. Disk 2.

So, now everyone is captured in a prison and Squall is being tortured. His interrogator is none other than Seifer. This is perfect validation that FFVIIIs core ideal is Fate is Ironically Cruel.

Seifer: This is the scene where you swear undying hatred for me! The tale of the evil mercenary vs. the sorceress knight... The fun's just started, Squall. Don't disappoint me now!

Seifers dream...his budding delusion is in complete opposition with reality. What has Seifer always wanted? To be a leader, to be the Sorceress Knight and the hero. Fate however has seemingly chosen him to play the role of the evil mercenary or something similar. His dream is a reality...but its not really his dream anymore.

Thats where Squall comes in. Impersonal, unfriendly Squall. A natural-born leader he may not appear but it is his destiny however much he may fight it.

Cid: This is your fate. It is your destiny to lead the way in defeating the sorceress.

Squall: Don't talk about this like it's been decided since by birth! (I don't mind fighting the sorceress. It's unavoidable as long as I'm a SeeD member. What? AS long as I'm a SeeD member? What if I quit? Quit... Then what? What do I have left? Don't even want to think about it. Just stop thinking...)

Again, the ironic hands of fate are unfolding the drama. The dream becomes reality with the roles reversed as Squall, however unwilling, was destiny-bound to be the hero.

Squall hasnt grown much emotionally yet but he is starting to think. Hes coming to terms with the fact one cant simply turn off the light and hide under a blanket, wishing his doubts and fears away.

Squall: (I'm fine by myself now. I have all the skills I need to survive. I'm not a child anymore. That's a lie. I don't know anything. I'm confused. I don't want to depend on anyone. How can I do that? Someone tell me...Someone? So I'll end up depending on others after all.)

Whatever rhetoric Squall spouted earlier about reality was, as we all couldve guessed, nothing more than a lie. Squall himself seems to do his best to avoid reality, much like Seifer. They just, again, do it in opposite ways.

At last Squall finally admits to himself what is the real issue at hand...

Squall: (Am I that untrusting...? Maybe I'm this way because I'm scared. Nothing lasts in this world. It feels great to have friends who believe in you, and adults you can rely on. That's why it's so dangerous, especially if you become used to it. Someday you're bound to loose everything. Everybody around you will be gone. Then what are
you left with? Nothing. Nobody... It's so miserable. And it's inevitable. It's so hard to recover from something like that. I never ever want to deal with that again. I can't even if it means being alone...)

His losing of Sis Ellione has dominated his way of life for over a decade and he just refuses to change on the grounds change will only make him feel that way again. He doesnt like to be alone but loneliness is preferable to the pain of loss apparently.

Moving away from Squalls mind, we get to learn about everyone elses mind! Thats right, its the Trabia Garden scene with everyone realizing theyre from the same Orphanage!

\Squall: I dont think I was adopted because of the way I am. Probably the same with Seifer, too. You two must have been at Garden by the age of 5 or so...

(Who wouldnt want these two bundles of joy?)

So, after that whole revelation, Balamb and Galbadia Garden begin to battle. Dr. Kadowaki makes a comment I remarked on earlier: fate being the ultimate director of Squalls and Seifers rivalry.

Dr. Kadowaki: Seifer is with them, right? You said yourself. There's no way you can run from him... It's kind of like your destiny to face him. ...Looks like it's now or never! You've come this far already. What is there to think about? You're not gonna run away are you?

Whatever Squalls personal feelings, Fate demands Squall and Seifer fight and so he does, again, on Galbadia Garden.

Squall: It's too late, Seifer. You can't mess with our minds. To us, you're just another enemy, like one of those monsters.

Seifer: You're comparing ME to one of them? I ain't no monster. I'm the sorceress' knight. And look at you. Attacking like a swarm. You guys are the monsters.

Squall also commented earlier on Seifer being just a rotruer. Now hes one of those monsters. Both times Seifer takes great offense, stressing his importance and what he believes is his role and purpose in this tragic tale.

He further separates from reality as Squall further embraces it. This is the ultimate difference between these two characters.

So, the party defeats Edea and shes free from Ultimecias control. But Rinoa goes into a coma...

Pyron_Knight
4. Disk 3

Squall: (I've heard enough. I understand that listening to what Matron has to say is important, but Rinoa...) Matron, do you know what's wrong with Rinoa?


Headmaster Cid: Did Rinoa die!?

Squall: NO!!!

Squall seems to finally be opening up, to re-establishing normal emotional connections with a human being. Something he hasnt done since Ellione.

However timidly, Squall is indeed emerging from his shell.

Squall: I worry too much about what others think of me. I hate that side of me... That's why I didn't want anyone to get to know me. I wanted to hide that side of myself. I hate it. Squall is an unfriendly, introverted guy. It made it easy for me when people perceived me that way.

Using Elliones power, Squall goes back into the past to the point Rinoa was possessed by Ultimecia. We hear..an enigmatic line from Ultimecia to Seifer.

???: Oh, my loyal knight, Seifer. The sorceress is alive... The sorceress demands.
Find the legendary Lunatic Pandora, said to be hidden beneath the ocean. Only then shall the sorceress provide you with dreams again.

What does she exactly mean? Is she exercising some form of mental control beyond simple manipulation now? I cant figure it out personally and its one reason I wish I could read Japanese as maybe FFVIII Ultimania sheds more light on this.

But in good news, Squall has finally reached the pinnacle of his character development.

Squall: I don't know what to do... This is just another crossroad in my life. But, for the first time, I don't know which way to go. I've come this far because I've...fallen for you. ......Rinoa...... Now...am I just supposed to let you go...?

Squall has taken the emotional road less-traveled for himself. Hes going out of his way to be with someone and overcoming his fears. To enforce a point of how Seifer and Squall are different, Ill say Squall has stopped running. More on that later.

If this quote doesnt support my claim of Fate is brutally ironic Im not sure what does.

Squall: (Rinoa......Even if you end up as the world's enemy.I'll...I'll be your knight.)


Squall Leonhart, a man whos spent his life in a self-imposed exile from feeling and attachment to others, who never asked to be the leader or te hero, has finally accepted his role. He is the knight to the Sorceress Rinoa and will stand by her against the world.

The one thing Seifer dreamed of most has been handed to his unwilling perpetual rival.

We come finally to the showdown with Seifer. As I said at the start, it sucks. But lets get pased that and listen to Fujin.

Fujin: POSSE... We are. We always will be. Because we're a posse, we want to help you. Whatever it takes to fulfill your dreams, we're willing to do. But... You're being manipulated, Seifer. You've lost yourself and your dream. You're just eating out of someone's hand. We want the old you back! Since we can't get through to you, all we have now to rely on is Squall! It's sad... Sad that we only have Squall to rely on... Seifer! Are you still gonna keep goin'?

We all know this. We know Seifer is being used and not fulfilling his dream. The real impact of this sccene is...now Seifer has literally lost the only friends he had in the world. The only hope his posse had left for their leader was for Squall to beat sense into him.

Squall: Are you going to continue with this knight thing?

Seifer: The knight has retired. I guess you could call me a young revolutionary.

Squall: What do you think you're doing?

Seifer: I've always gotta be doing somethin' BIG! I don't wanna stop. I'm gonna keep running! I've come this far... I'm gonna make it to the end, to the goal! There's no way I'm sharing
it with you!

Remember I said Squall had stopped running and that was another real difference between Squall and Seifer? Well, there it is. Seifer wont stop running, he wont accept reality. Squall has grown beyond himself but Seifer wont let himself see past his childhood fantasy.

The party beats Seifer...then he gets up and takes Rinoa to Adel.

Rinoa: Seifer! Stop it! Haven't you done enough!? I know you're not like that!

Seifer: Can't go back now! I can't go anywhere! The sorceresses as one! That is Ultimecia's WISH!

Rinoa: ......Seifer.


Seifer is, understandably, cracking up. He has nothing left but his dream which is crumbling around him. Its a life preserver in a sea of nothing.

5. Disk 4

Now this scene I always found very interesting.

Rinoa: .....Seifer. No more... Please?

Seifer: Rinoa...



Squall: Seifer!!! NO!

Watching this scene, it really did seem to me like Seifer was listening to Rinoa. Then Squall ran in and whatever chance Rinoa had at making Seifer stop was lost. He tosses her to Adel and we dont see him again till the end of the game.

No more quotes to be posted really. We see Squall stumbling alone through a dessert, strangely resembling Rinoas nightmare. He collapses and his lover happens upon his unconscious form.
We then see Seifer with his two friends, laughing and smiling as he looks at them and then Balamb Garden.

What happened between the events at Lunatic Pandora and then? Who knows. Stupid Square.

Conclusion

The real difference between Seifer and Squall is that Squall progressed and Seifer regressed. Squall outgrew the scared little boy he was and matured into a (presumably) healthy, well-adjusted adult. Seifer clung to his boyhood ideas, unwilling to hear or listen to anything that threatened what he felt he deserved and more importantly what he wanted. Even if it meant he was being used, hed play at the dream.

Its not really his fault in my honest opinion however. Squall was just as emotionally crippled at the start and had Ultimecia chosen to manipulate him, Im pretty sure she could have. Seifer was just the unlucky pawn in her scheme and while Squall bore the luxury of fixing his fractured ego, Seifer was abused both mentally and physically by his Sorceress and even by the woman he might have loved at one point. I dont expect anyone to improve mentally under these circumstances.

At the end, Fate chose Squall as the Sorceress Knight and Seifer as the evil mercenary. Both men had no choice in the matter.

Thats about it. I hope this has been intriguing and if you stopped reading a long time ago, I cant blame you.

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