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Who would win?

Namor, with ease.

Namor, 10/10

spite

Namor curbstomps him

Originally posted by laser7455
Who would win?

Namor

namor for the win but cap can take a few at least.

not spite, but namor 9/10.

Originally posted by jinzin
namor for the win but cap can take a few at least.

How? The same way Sabretooth stalemated Juggernaut.

Originally posted by jinzin
namor for the win but cap can take a few at least.

Capt does. He hurt IM in Civil War #7

Because IM was completely immobile and helpless. Namor won't be.

Originally posted by Draco69
Because IM was completely immobile and helpless. Namor won't be.

I have the issue. I said Namor wins. Nuff said

Namor wins 8/10

Originally posted by Flame On!!
How? The same way Sabretooth stalemated Juggernaut.

No, the same way he's been able to beat namor or namoresque opponents in the past.

Namor every single time

How does capt get anywins at all, ever.........


"Waits for scan of Cap KO'ing namor"

Originally posted by Apolloknight
How does capt get anywins at all, ever.........


"Waits for scan of Cap KO'ing namor"

uses shield for a KO, or nerve strikes, hits vitals.. wins through default or by plot device. there's plenty of ways for cap to get wins.

Originally posted by jinzin
uses shield for a KO, or nerve strikes, hits vitals.. wins through default or by plot device. there's plenty of ways for cap to get wins.

Isn't Namor a rather competent fighter as well?

Has Cap actually KOed a Namor level opponent? I have seen him hurt and knock down them plenty, even guys like Hulk, but he has usually been demolished by Namor pretty easily when he doesn't hold back. See Order for example. I don't really see Cap taking more then 1 win, and that is when Namor is holding back like he usually does against Cap. Don't really see why Namor couldn't just snatch the shield from the air if he throws it (like he has done before) or simply take it from his hands (like he has also done before).

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Isn't Namor a rather competent fighter as well?
never said he wasn't.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Has Cap actually KOed a Namor level opponent?
yes.

Poor Cap... this isn't very fair...

Namor 9/10

Originally posted by invisiblewoman
Namor 9/10

thats fair.

Originally posted by jinzin
yes. Such as? And I am meaning Namor level on speed, skills, strength and durability, not just some brute who Cap can dodge and hammer on head for hours.

9/10 seems fair. Cap's never HAD to defeat Namor, and really can't, but over the years I'm sure he's come up with something that could help him in that kinda fight.

Namor's clone, Namor, Controller with Namor's powers.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Has Cap actually KOed a Namor level opponent? I have seen him hurt and knock down them plenty, even guys like Hulk, but he has usually been demolished by Namor pretty easily when he doesn't hold back. See Order for example. I don't really see Cap taking more then 1 win, and that is when Namor is holding back like he usually does against Cap. Don't really see why Namor couldn't just snatch the shield from the air if he throws it (like he has done before) or simply take it from his hands (like he has also done before). Cap being able to go toe-to-toe against Namor has always been a curious subject. He just does. Namor has taken a smaller share of fights too. But Cap does better than most people would ever give him credit for. Frankly, I thought jinzin would be the last person to be one. Go figure.

Although Namor has taken Cap's shield away, it's far from a guaranteed plan. Here's a scan of Namor wrestling with Cap's shield. Trying to take it, or push it out the way, whatever... not easy to understand it... but what happens after is. Namor gets flung aside and brought to the ground. The following page has him on his knees looking up at a discombobulated Cap. My interpretation of how Cap could accomplish that is he uses Namor's own momentum against him. Namor tries to go straight forward through the shield strongly. Cap veers him to one side in the second panel, causing Namor to fumble a bit to his left. As Namor tries to reassert his footing and pull his weight back to the center by shifting right, Cap then swiftly adds his own leverage to Namor's readjustment and Namor completely stumbles past him. Sounds like classic Cap to me, make opponent's their own worst enemy to find a way:

It made for a clumsy situation for Namor, but not for a case of Cap being able to outmaneuver Namor in any way.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Cap being able to go toe-to-toe against Namor has always been a curious subject. He just does. Namor has taken a smaller share of fights too. But Cap does better than most people would ever give him credit for. Frankly, I thought jinzin would be the last person to be one. Go figure.

Although Namor has taken Cap's shield away, it's far from a guaranteed plan. Here's a scan of Namor wrestling with Cap's shield. Trying to take it, or push it out the way, whatever... not easy to understand it... but what happens after is. Namor gets flung aside and brought to the ground. The following page has him on his knees looking up at a discombobulated Cap. My interpretation of how Cap could accomplish that is he uses Namor's own momentum against him. Namor tries to go straight forward through the shield strongly. Cap veers him to one side in the second panel, causing Namor to fumble a bit to his left. As Namor tries to reassert his footing and pull his weight back to the center by shifting right, Cap then swiftly adds his own leverage to Namor's readjustment and Namor completely stumbles past him. Sounds like classic Cap to me, make opponent's their own worst enemy to find a way:


Great Dialogue In That scan

Originally posted by Redatom65
Great Dialogue In That scan If you're joking about Cap's stuttering, that is because he had just awaken from being frozen and was completely out of his depth. He's trying to say "Bucky," because he's wondering where he is. Namor tells him Bucky's dead. Eventually, Namor uses Cap's discombobulated state and gets past him by advancing in a non-threatening manner and gently takes his shield away and Cap lets him.

As soon as Namor chops off the hand of the scientist he was trying to attack the whole time, Cap goes back to defender mode and tackles Namor. So considering Cap's head is all messed up and he still performs this deft move was pretty kewl. Namor himself comments how Cap's protecting instinct is so ingrained, he can still fight in such a state.
Originally posted by Buccaneer
It made for a clumsy situation for Namor, but not for a case of Cap being able to outmaneuver Namor in any way. I guess we disagree with each other then. I am of the opinion that it's exactly the type of outmaneuvering that Cap can bring to a fight between he and Namor.

Namor wins virtually every time, but Cap will give him a good fight
here and there....

I agree. I mean, Cap WOULD give a good fight. But pretty much never a victorious one.

And maneuvering, there was once an old Japanese lady that flipped over a charging Hulk. Then she ducked out before getting her skin peeled off. That old lady would be Cap, only he wouldn't back down.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Cap being able to go toe-to-toe against Namor has always been a curious subject. He just does. Namor has taken a smaller share of fights too. But Cap does better than most people would ever give him credit for. Frankly, I thought jinzin would be the last person to be one. Go figure.

Although Namor has taken Cap's shield away, it's far from a guaranteed plan. Here's a scan of Namor wrestling with Cap's shield. Trying to take it, or push it out the way, whatever... not easy to understand it... but what happens after is. Namor gets flung aside and brought to the ground. The following page has him on his knees looking up at a discombobulated Cap. My interpretation of how Cap could accomplish that is he uses Namor's own momentum against him. Namor tries to go straight forward through the shield strongly. Cap veers him to one side in the second panel, causing Namor to fumble a bit to his left. As Namor tries to reassert his footing and pull his weight back to the center by shifting right, Cap then swiftly adds his own leverage to Namor's readjustment and Namor completely stumbles past him. Sounds like classic Cap to me, make opponent's their own worst enemy to find a way:


Wait a minute, we have a high class 100 ton guy, who has been fighting for decades, who also throws around battleships like toys, against a "peak human".

Im sorry, that scan is PIS, Namor could take caps shield from him, while ripping his are off like it was Newspaper, with just one hand

Come on...........

Captain America vol. 4 itself was PIS

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Wait a minute, we have a high class 100 ton guy, who has been fighting for decades, who also throws around battleships like toys, against a "peak human".

Im sorry, that scan is PIS, Namor could take caps shield from him, while ripping his are off like it was Newspaper, with just one hand

Come on........... If you would humor me, I shall endeavor to explain why I don't think it is PIS. In my experience, few things are. These authors love comics as much as we do. And the more I think that way, the more I've found if you think hard enough, things start making sense. Here is why the above situation makes sense to me. Cap's shield absorbs force correct? If you apply force directly on it, it is dampened enough that Cap can keep his footing by applying only his own strength in the opposite direction. Hence, why he can withstand shots from Hulk and such. It has to do with the molecular makeup of the vibranium and steel from which it was forged. We agree on that much, right? Ok.

Look at what Namor is doing in the 1st panel. He is pushing directly against the shield. Applied force is force nonetheless. Look at his hand placement. His left and right hand are on the edges pushing against Cap's shield straight into Cap. Pay attention to Cap's arm and shoulder as well. Now, this panel alone makes sense. Namor is pushing against Cap and Cap's force dampening shield and Cap's strength from behind allows him to remain in a standstill.

Now what happens in the second panel? Cap twists the shield to his right. You see how this is so, because Namor's hands have turned towards his left respectively and Cap's arm looks turned as well. He doesn't just move the shield to his right, he rotates it as well. A full twist. Imagine if you were as strong as Namor. You're pushing against this confounded shield with your strength, class 100 strength maybe... and then the darn thing moves and rotates to your left suddenly. If you were Namor, you'd either fly towards the side and lose your grip because of the immense force you've committed to pushing, or you would try to regain your footing and shift your weight back. But you'd need a lot of strength and countermovement to regain your footing right? After all, Cap is redirecting your class 100 strength.

Which Cap was exactly counting on as he completely twists and draws the shield back to his left, using Namor's own attempt to readjust from his initial stumble to create momentum and fling Namor aside. This is a classic wrestling move and classic martial arts. Grapple, feint right, force stumble left with opponent's own momentum. It makes more sense with Cap's special shield that dampens applied force, but does not take away the tremendous strength that Namor has committed. How does that work for you?

Can Captain America knock namor out?

Absolutely. I believe that it is within Steve Roger's ability to knock out someone with Namor's durability.

Is he likely to? Here's where I'd venture a guess of either 'No,' or 'Hell no.'

I'll give Captain America 2/10 at most. .

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
If you would humor me, I shall endeavor to explain why I don't think it is PIS. In my experience, few things are. These authors love comics as much as we do.


More so in some cases, which makes writers more biased if they are writing for a favorite character, such as cap.

This is not an acceptable excuses for everything a streetleveler does.

This is not a way to explain, even when outmatched in every category, and tremendously outclassed in strength, like a bebe gun against a Tank.

This is why we have PIS/CIS on this forum, because writers can be biased, and write their streetlevelers doing dumb stupid things. Cap is no exception, as with wolverine, black panther, batman etc....

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And the more I think that way, the more I've found if you think hard enough, things start making sense.

Sometimes, its easily to be blinded by thought consumed by more thought.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Cap's shield absorbs force correct? If you apply force directly on it, it is dampened enough that Cap can keep his footing by applying only his own strength in the opposite direction. Hence, why he can withstand shots from Hulk and such. It has to do with the molecular makeup of the vibranium and steel from which it was forged. We agree on that much, right? Ok.



See this is were your wrong, caps shield does absorb force, but vibranium does have limits, if this limit is reached, he can be knocked back even if he directly blocks said attack with shield.

Iron fist for one, has proven this.

http://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capironfist3hi6.jpg
http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capironfist4qg9.jpg

And IF has proven it again....

http://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=103lv.jpg

Is cap ok, Yes.
Is the shield intact, Yes, but not due to the vibranium, but the adamatium and steel alloy which is also mixed with the shield, which we all know, adamatium is pretty much indestructible, but doesn't absorb force, and can be knocked around.

Is Black panther Ok, no, is his vibranium suit intact, NO, IF took the vibranium to its kinetic force limit. his suit couldn't hold the energy being directed at it, and broke down. Simple

What do we have, IF, with his "IF" attack, which IMO is at least class 15-20 attacks, knocked cap back, and shredded panthers suit.

Namors strength>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>IF

Originally posted by OneDumbG0


Look at what Namor is doing in the 1st panel. He is pushing directly against the shield. Applied force is force nonetheless.


No, it absorbs the kinetic force of blunt impacts

If someone where to place their hands on vibranium, and begin to push, you could push it, just as long as you don't release you grip, and try to charge it, you'll drop like a fly, unless your force is greater then the limits of the vibranium. Slow force applied to it, will not be negated.

Need proof

http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=29ya1.jpg

I believe Ironman, one of the smartest in all of marvel, understands what I just said, question is, Do you?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

How does that work for you?


Didnt need to quote the rest of your argument since your entire argument is based off vibranium absorbing everything that touches it.

Point.

Namor can do anything he wants to caps shields, He could, Punch the shield with his 65,000 ton battleship tossing strength, and while cap might block it, the kinetic force of the vibranium will be overloaded, and cap will go flying through every building accoss four city blocks, because, as you have no choice but to accept.....

Namors strength>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Iron fist


He could, grab the shield, and push cap through whatever he wants, he could grab the shield, take it from cap while ripping his arm off with it, and beat him to death with it, like I said, he can do whatever the hell he wants.

He is FAAAAAAAAAR to strong for cap.

This fight is a slaughter,

namor shitstomps cap 10/10

Yeah, Cap could drop Namor.*









*ONLY if he slammed on the first centimeter of the Sub Mariner's chin with his shield while he was blindfolded. The guy lives in crushing depths, a human smack ain't worth much.

ahhhhh.....but what if Cap had Wolverine's writers.......what then?????

Cap would dig into one of his belt pouches and throw sand into Subby's eyes. Then punch him until he threw up and dropped. Four days later, the Prince of Atlantis would die of subdural hematoma and the citizens of his country would be far too scared to seek revenge.

Namor wins, but just out of my own self pity, i'll give Cap one just out of a luck factor.

Aside from your interesting opinion on overthinking. I disagree with almost everything you've stated.
Originally posted by Apolloknight
More so in some cases, which makes writers more biased if they are writing for a favorite character, such as cap.

This is not an acceptable excuses for everything a streetleveler does.

This is not a way to explain, even when outmatched in every category, and tremendously outclassed in strength, like a bebe gun against a Tank.

This is why we have PIS/CIS on this forum, because writers can be biased, and write their streetlevelers doing dumb stupid things. Cap is no exception, as with wolverine, black panther, batman etc....

Sometimes, its easily to be blinded by thought consumed by more thought.Not thinking and just going with your first impression has been more of a bane in reading these comics than anything. Taking the time to think about it and wonder why a professional writer, whose very job it is to create comics that people will not only like but accept, wrote the things he did is far more revealing than your gut instinct tp scream PIS.
Originally posted by Apolloknight
See this is were your wrong, caps shield does absorb force, but vibranium does have limits, if this limit is reached, he can be knocked back even if he directly blocks said attack with shield.

Iron fist for one, has proven this.

http://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capironfist3hi6.jpg
http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capironfist4qg9.jpg

And IF has proven it again....

http://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=103lv.jpgCap was not moved by an enraged She-Hulk's multiple shots in 'Avengers Dissassembled,' where he kept his footing like he does in the Namor scan. In your scans, Cap is in mid-air with no footing and therefore no bracing.
Originally posted by Apolloknight
Is cap ok, Yes.
Is the shield intact, Yes, but not due to the vibranium, but the adamatium and steel alloy which is also mixed with the shield, which we all know, adamatium is pretty much indestructible, but doesn't absorb force, and can be knocked around.At this point, I was tempted to disregard the rest of your post. Because you act so smart, but you don't even know that Cap's shield has no adamantium in it whatsoever. It's a vibranium and steel alloy. This lack of knowledge convinces me you know little about Cap or his shield and presume too much. But I will address EVERY single one of your following points to show you why they fail. Perhaps it will convince you to read more Captain America or at least some sloppy respect/bio thread.
Originally posted by Apolloknight
Is Black panther Ok, no, is his vibranium suit intact, NO, IF took the vibranium to its kinetic force limit. his suit couldn't hold the energy being directed at it, and broke down. Simple

What do we have, IF, with his "IF" attack, which IMO is at least class 15-20 attacks, knocked cap back, and shredded panthers suit.

Namors strength>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>IFCap's shield is NOT defined by vibranium. The vibranium aspect of his shield helps to explain why it dampens applied force. Vibranium can absorb a certain amount of energy/force. After that, it becomes unstable and/or it needs to release that energy. These are two defining characteristics of vibranium. These aspects are clearly illustrated in your own scans. Cap's shield has NEVER become unstable and NEVER released any absorbed energy. This discounts the storyline where the after-effects of Cap trying to mentally repair his shield after the Beyonder destroyed it, but did it with a molecular flaw, which caused his shield to cause a vibration cancer. Other than that, his shield has never become unstable or needed to release pent up energy. This is unlike USAgent's pure vibranium shield. So understand this, from now on, you want everybody to be convinced that vibranium defines Cap's shield and reacts similar to other constructs of vibranium. You want us to project the said weakness onto his shield. Unfortunately, you're absolutely wrong. Cap only shares one trait with vibranium, force absorption and not anything else. It is utterly unique. It has been pounded and pounded again and never damaged, never unstable unless on an insanely molecular level, like Thanos' Infinity Gauntlet, Beyonder's power or the Odinforce. It's characteristics have NEVER been duplicated.
Originally posted by Apolloknight
No, it absorbs the kinetic force of blunt impacts

If someone where to place their hands on vibranium, and begin to push, you could push it, just as long as you don't release you grip, and try to charge it, you'll drop like a fly, unless your force is greater then the limits of the vibranium. Slow force applied to it, will not be negated.

Need proof

http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=29ya1.jpg

I believe Ironman, one of the smartest in all of marvel, understands what I just said, question is, Do you?All I need to do is question you and your knowledge of what defines Cap's shield. You would probably be right if Cap's shield was pure vibranium. Except it isn't. It is the most unique alloy created by a process that has never been reproduced. So your entire analysis fails since two of vibranium's defining characteristics are clearly and indisputably not shared by Cap's shield.
Originally posted by Apolloknight
Didnt need to quote the rest of your argument since your entire argument is based off vibranium absorbing everything that touches it.

Point.Didnt need to quote the rest of your argument since your entire argument is based off vibranium absorbing everything that touches it.

Point. Set. Match.

Thank you for providing me a very succinct conclusion to every single point you've made. I couldn't have done it better myself. But you see... I did quote the rest of your argument.
Originally posted by Apolloknight
Namor can do anything he wants to caps shields, He could, Punch the shield with his 65,000 ton battleship tossing strength, and while cap might block it, the kinetic force of the vibranium will be overloaded, and cap will go flying through every building accoss four city blocks, because, as you have no choice but to accept.....

Namors strength>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Iron fist


He could, grab the shield, and push cap through whatever he wants, he could grab the shield, take it from cap while ripping his arm off with it, and beat him to death with it, like I said, he can do whatever the hell he wants.

He is FAAAAAAAAAR to strong for cap.

This fight is a slaughter,

namor shitstomps cap 10/10 Only, Iron Fist punched when Cap was in the air and could not brace and bring his full strength or his full weight to counteract the applied force coming back at him. You must understand, in the end, your use of Iron Fist hitting Cap's shield is pretty laughable. Especially considering Cap withstanding the kind of crap that has hit him and not budging when he is bracing himself. Gladiator? Enraged She-Hulk? Mjolnir? Ultimately, you thought you were right, and you were quite logical in your posts and you had a good flowing argument. But your mistakes and assumptions with Cap's shield ultimately undermined your entire argument. Cap's shield is unique. It is not defined by vibranium, which has many weaknesses on its own. Vibranium's weaknesses, which you posit would make Cap's shield vulnerable have NEVER been shared by his shield. This fact is INDISPUTABLE. Because we've never seen his shield overloaded or unstable or in the act of releasing pent up energy.

This is basic Cap knowledge. In fact, in many Cap comics, the writers will directly contrast Cap's shield with pure vibranium shields. It was a good debate, but ultimately, this is how Cap's shield works and why the scan I posted is not PIS. Cheers.

actually Cap's shield IS an accidental mixture of vibranium and adamantium.

Originally posted by Apolloknight


This is why we have PIS/CIS on this forum, because writers can be biased, and write their streetlevelers doing dumb stupid things. Cap is no exception, as with wolverine, black panther, batman etc....



Hell Cap can knock out Mr Hyde who can lift 80 tons and hurt people in the class 100 range if he can do that why cant he stop people from grabbing his shield? Splitting hairs.


Originally posted by Zahit
actually Cap's shield IS an accidental mixture of vibranium and adamantium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Captain_America's_shield#The_indestructible_shield



Rogers' indestructible shield has often been referred to as being an adamantium-vibranium alloy. This is not the case: adamantium was only developed after Rogers was revived from suspended animation, during MacLain's later experiments to try and duplicate the material of the shield (the substance made its first appearance in Avengers Vol. 1 #66, July 1969).

Namor snaps cap as you would a cadbury's flake bar.

Originally posted by jinzin
Namor's clone, Namor, Controller with Namor's powers.

Cap has only beaten Namor when he was mind-controlled, as in, fighting like a brute. And even then I remember him only being able to take him out by hitting the control disc. He's never beaten Namor who was in his full senses. Namor's clone wasn't proven to be as tough as Namor in physique, and was defenitely not as skilled. And Controller was fighting like a brute too...

None of the people you can also name don't have the experience against and about Captain America that Namor has...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=8505471
I don't also see what this pic proves...that Cap can...trick Namor who is trying to...push his shield? I agree, he can do that...but that isn't really a real battle situation. And majority of the time, Namor holds back against Cap a lot. Even when he met him first time, he didn't kill him though he had a clear chance...
http://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?image=namorvscapt53nu.gif

These days, when Cap is his best friend, I wouldn't expect Namor to use even 10% of his strength, really.

Yeah, even Namor fighting like a brute wouldn't have really fallen if it weren't for that thing on his neck. That's an extreme exception.

Not just just push but take away Cap's shield. As he did this in the next scene by Namor saying he'll used surprise this time, as Cap was caught off guard as he stole Cap's shield.

But I doubt Namor was going "all out" the first time even if he was angry. Thats definitely a good Cap feat though. Holding off Namor and not letting him take away his shield.

Eh, I go with Namor.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070307/ap_on_en_ot/captain_america

I'm going to have to disagree with that. He could slightly hurt him but thats about it.

Now if Cap uses the sharp edge of his vibranium/ mystery metal shield. Then its posibble he could do more damage.

We've seen his shield throw hurt Ironman to even annoy the Hulk. To even decapitate BaronBlood and threaten Absorbing Man.

But in the end even with that, I give it too Namor handily.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Cap has only beaten Namor when he was mind-controlled, as in, fighting like a brute. And even then I remember him only being able to take him out by hitting the control disc. He's never beaten Namor who was in his full senses. Namor's clone wasn't proven to be as tough as Namor in physique, and was defenitely not as skilled. And Controller was fighting like a brute too...

None of the people you can also name don't have the experience against and about Captain America that Namor has...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=8505471
I don't also see what this pic proves...that Cap can...trick Namor who is trying to...push his shield? I agree, he can do that...but that isn't really a real battle situation. And majority of the time, Namor holds back against Cap a lot. Even when he met him first time, he didn't kill him though he had a clear chance...
http://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?image=namorvscapt53nu.gif

These days, when Cap is his best friend, I wouldn't expect Namor to use even 10% of his strength, really.
You asked the question I answered it....

I realize that your love for namor is NEVER going to concede to the fact that cap has beaten people on his level when he has.. but don't ask me to produce an answer for you if you can't handle it.