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I didn't know how to abbreviate it, so let me explain;

I want to discuss the difference between PIS, plot induced stupidity, and the concept of 'I don't like it, it didn't happen.'

When do we take either into account? Honestly?

Because, to me, PIS is more along the lines of happening along a plot device of some kind. Finding that vacuum, fire hydrant, or stumbling into a 'sonic guns R us' store.

Alternatively, PIS involves physics oft times. Hercules and the Hulk slug it out? Well, they each punch with thousands of tons of force, and neither weighs (comparatively) that much. So they should go flying, right? Well, that'd make for a boring fight, if they had to make a thirteen mile hike back to the battleground after each blow.

Particularly high or low showings? Not really plot induced stupidity, not in my opinion. Saying that Spiderman taking out a high level brick is PIS is more along the lines of "I don't like it, it didn't happen."

Saying Wolverine hanging with some of the people he, quote unquote 'Shouldn't' is PIS is more along the lines of "I don't like it, it didn't happen."

. Maybe I'm way off base. Feel free to correct me all you please...and...

Discuss. .

I call up my first witness to the stand. Apocalypse, have you been afflicted by PIS? apocalypse : "I have been afflicted by PIS, but it's also jobbing. I can defeat the high evolutionary, manhandle the hulk, wreck the xmen, beat down Ikaris easily, YET I HAVE TO RUN AWAY FROM A TABLE THROWN BY NAMOR!? APOCALYPSE SHALL NOT STAND FOR THIS!"

Next witness will be: Super-Adaptoid.

Originally posted by Soljer
I didn't know how to abbreviate it, so let me explain;

I want to discuss the difference between PIS, plot induced stupidity, and the concept of 'I don't like it, it didn't happen.'

When do we take either into account? Honestly?

Because, to me, PIS is more along the lines of happening along a plot device of some kind. Finding that vacuum, fire hydrant, or stumbling into a 'sonic guns R us' store.

Alternatively, PIS involves physics oft times. Hercules and the Hulk slug it out? Well, they each punch with thousands of tons of force, and neither weighs (comparatively) that much. So they should go flying, right? Well, that'd make for a boring fight, if they had to make a thirteen mile hike back to the battleground after each blow.

Particularly high or low showings? Not really plot induced stupidity, not in my opinion. Saying that Spiderman taking out a high level brick is PIS is more along the lines of "I don't like it, it didn't happen."

Saying Wolverine hanging with some of the people he, quote unquote 'Shouldn't' is PIS is more along the lines of "I don't like it, it didn't happen."

. Maybe I'm way off base. Feel free to correct me all you please...and...

Discuss. . PIS and Plot Devices are completely different if you ask me.

PIS is when characters that normally have a lot more abilities and or force to exert do not. Superman's speed come to mind. Thor's offensive and exotic powers not being used. A writer dumbs down a characters abilities for sake of the plot

Plot devies are what your talking about. These devices that writers place in enviroments that normally aren't woth the characters for sake of plot. This like a fire hydrant Spiderman finds to beat sandman.

Generally a lot of people simply throw both terms as PIS which I do as well saves on the space of writing that and I'm lazy


Also with the idea that beings like Hulk and Hec don't go flying is simple. You see you muscles exert force and you have muscles all around your body. Now when when you get punched in the chest your muscles are going to exert force as well tightening. So then not only is the force enacted upon you trying to overcome inertia but also the force that your body is giving off.

The best example I can think of for this is say you lift 250 pounds. Now take a 250 pund fat guy and push them. Now take a 250 pound guy of solid musle and hit them and you'll notice that the muscle guy won't go back as far if at all while the fat guy will probably fall on his back.

What's the accurate difference between PIS & A Plot device? I've been wondering this for a while now. People apparently have differing concepts about those 2 and often mix them up. Sorry if this a little offtopic

Originally posted by Jyppe
What's the accurate difference between PIS & A Plot device? I've been wondering this for a while now. People apparently have differing concepts about those 2 and often mix them up. Sorry if this a little offtopic Did I not just point out the difference above

PIS(Plot Induced Stupidity): When a writer lowers characters abilities for sake of making the plot.

EX) Superman not using his speed. Thor not using his offensive and exotic powers to their fullest.


Plot Deive: Are devices writers place in the story to help a character win even though they have no business winning.

EX) Spiderman using a fire hydrant to beat Sandman. Reed using the Ultimate Nullifier.


So the difference is one has to do with a characters ability to use their powers while another deals with items placed in the comic even the playing field.

Both serve the same person make it so the plot can be more interesting and even.

Originally posted by Newjak
Did I not just point out the difference above

PIS(Plot Induced Stupidity): When a writer lowers characters abilities for sake of making the plot.

EX) Superman not using his speed. Thor not using his offensive and exotic powers to their fullest.


Plot Deive: Are devices writers place in the story to help a character win even though they have no business winning.

EX) Spiderman using a fire hydrant to beat Sandman. Reed using the Ultimate Nullifier.


So the difference is one has to do with a characters ability to use their powers while another deals with items placed in the comic even the playing field.

Both serve the same person make it so the plot can be more interesting and even.

That's exactly how I'd describe them. But Is there a difference between jobbing & PIS?

Originally posted by Jyppe
That's exactly how I'd describe them. But Is there a difference between jobbing & PIS? I wouldn't say so. To me they basically the same thing. Both deal with people who have more power but aren't using it for plot.


This is the only difference I can think off.

Jobbing is solely lowering the person to another's level.

PIS is kind of a mutual thing most of the time. Certain characters powers get upgraded some while the other person still gets lowered.

So Jobbing is when one person gets completely lowered.

PIS the cahracters most of the time will meet in the middle ground.

That is the best I can come up with.

Wouldn't jobbing be more CIS then PIS?

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Wouldn't jobbing be more CIS then PIS? That could be right hmm

that could be true. Some character like say, Rhino, are called jobbers, when in reality they're the poster child for CIS. It depends on the character. If we start claiming jobbing and CIS are the same thing, it's gonna get weird.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
that could be true. Some character like say, Rhino, are called jobbers, when in reality they're the poster child for CIS. It depends on the character. If we start claiming jobbing and CIS are the same thing, it's gonna get weird. That could be right hmm

But this doesn't get at the core of the question.

How often on this forum do we witness people throw around the term "PIS," simply because something happened and they believe that it shouldn't have?

How often does PIS really mean "I don't like it"?

Originally posted by Soljer
But this doesn't get at the core of the question.

How often on this forum do we witness people throw around the term "PIS," simply because something happened and they believe that it shouldn't have?

How often does PIS really mean "I don't like it"?

Wouldn't it depend on the number of times that particular feat has been demonstrated by the character in question? If Wolverine suddenly demonstrated the ability to fly in a particular comic I'd be tempted to ignore it and consider it a once of feat unless this ability was followed up on. I suppose it'd depend on how radical the feat is compared to the norm of the character in question.

Originally posted by Soljer
But this doesn't get at the core of the question.

How often on this forum do we witness people throw around the term "PIS," simply because something happened and they believe that it shouldn't have?

How often does PIS really mean "I don't like it"?

every time

there is no objective mechanism for determining valid feats

PIS just refers to instances where something goes against the general consensus of what should have happened. Basically, PIS = what most people say "IHLI, IDH" to

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Wouldn't jobbing be more CIS then PIS?
Not really . I view them as such.

CIS : Pyro getting punked by human torch , somehow not realizing he CONTROLS FIRE.

PIS : "Insta-one-weakness-anite"

Jobbing - Spiderman punching out Reed Richards in Civil War , no explanation , no understanding. Just basically making a character a higher level for no particular reason.

Originally posted by grey fox
Not really . I view them as such.

CIS : Pyro getting punked by human torch , somehow not realizing he CONTROLS FIRE.

PIS : "Insta-one-weakness-anite"

Jobbing - Spiderman punching out Reed Richards in Civil War , no explanation , no understanding. Just basically making a character a higher level for no particular reason.

Best definitions yet.

CIS - the character is just stupid or doesn't have the personality to do certain things.

PIS - a character accomplishes something far beyond his/her/its powers in order to further the plot or end the story.

Jobbing - technicaly this would invlove an intentional loss but around here it seems to mean any case where a character fails to fight properly.

Plot Device - an artifact, power or strategy that allows a character to win against impossible odds. Especially if hastily created, unexplained, possesing powers that change without explanation or not in the character's standard equipment.

I Didn't Like It, It Didn't Happen - basicly any of the above except CIS.

Originally posted by Soljer
I didn't know how to abbreviate it, so let me explain;

I want to discuss the difference between PIS, plot induced stupidity, and the concept of 'I don't like it, it didn't happen.'

When do we take either into account? Honestly?

Because, to me, PIS is more along the lines of happening along a plot device of some kind. Finding that vacuum, fire hydrant, or stumbling into a 'sonic guns R us' store.

Alternatively, PIS involves physics oft times. Hercules and the Hulk slug it out? Well, they each punch with thousands of tons of force, and neither weighs (comparatively) that much. So they should go flying, right? Well, that'd make for a boring fight, if they had to make a thirteen mile hike back to the battleground after each blow.

Particularly high or low showings? Not really plot induced stupidity, not in my opinion. Saying that Spiderman taking out a high level brick is PIS is more along the lines of "I don't like it, it didn't happen."

Saying Wolverine hanging with some of the people he, quote unquote 'Shouldn't' is PIS is more along the lines of "I don't like it, it didn't happen."

. Maybe I'm way off base. Feel free to correct me all you please...and...

Discuss. .

Both are fanboy created. Writers write plots sometimes devices are needed for a good story. Call it PIS if you like. It's why versus debates are stupid.

Keep the faith


Flame On!!

Originally posted by Soljer
But this doesn't get at the core of the question.

How often on this forum do we witness people throw around the term "PIS," simply because something happened and they believe that it shouldn't have?

How often does PIS really mean "I don't like it"? Honestly I kind of chuck it up to Common Sense has to be invloved.


Thats how I base all my PIS claims and stuff. Its the only honestly good way to do it. Wolverine with any real common sense should be anything more than a really good street leveler. Samething with Magneto being anything more than a mid level guy.

So Common Sense has got to play a factor. You know you have to look at powersets realize what someone with said power set can truely accomplish along with the feats.

And that is where KMC is kind of falling apart. We are using to many feats without first taking a look back at the power sets using them and limits they have shown before.

Originally posted by Newjak
Samething with Magneto being anything more than a mid level guy.

What? Do you know that much about Magneto? He doesn't just control metal, you know. That seems to be the popular assumption here.

Originally posted by batdude123
What? Do you know that much about Magneto? He doesn't just control metal, you know. That seems to be the popular assumption here. Well seeing as I did watch your match yes I know exactly what Mags can do

Hence he shouldn't be over Iron Man level by too much

Originally posted by Newjak
Well seeing as I did watch your match yes I know exactly what Mags can do

Hence he shouldn't be over Iron Man level by too much

We didn't even mention a quarter of the things Magneto can do. You can't judge one's power level on a few scans. That's hardly fair. How many "mid" tier level characters play around with subatomic particles like nothing?

http://img409.imageshack.us/my.php?image=classicxmen1909lm4.jpg

Or manipulate the Earth's magnetic field to inhibit all long ranged telepathy?

http://img455.imageshack.us/my.php?image=classicxmen1911tg4.jpg

I'd say he's above Iron Man by quite a bit.

Jobbing is seperate from PIS in that PIS is stupidity used to further the plot, while jobbing is a term for when a character is affecting/beating another character who is way beyond their power level because the former character is a cash cow, typically.

PIS: Strange being taken out by Hiler's gun
Jobbing: Batman kicking Spectre
WB (Writer's Bias): Daredevil taking out Wolverine with a throat-shot

Originally posted by batdude123
We didn't even mention a quarter of the things Magneto can do. You can't judge one's power level on a few scans. That's hardly fair. How many "mid" tier level characters play around with subatomic particles like nothing?

http://img409.imageshack.us/my.php?image=classicxmen1909lm4.jpg

Or manipulate the Earth's magnetic field to inhibit all long ranged telepathy?

http://img455.imageshack.us/my.php?image=classicxmen1911tg4.jpg

I'd say he's above Iron Man by quite a bit. You know BD for some strange reason I doubt you held back his best feats

Secondly the first scan isn't very impressive at all. I could point out that people like Radioactive Man and Crystal all could do similar things and they were all allowed into the Iron Man levle tourny

The last one is even less impressive. For one it doesn't say that he effected the entire Earth it seems more like he sheilded the area around them. He even mentions that he did it slwoly and didn't he have the help of some machines as was pointed out in the trounry

Facr it BD I know you got a hard on for Mags in your tourny matches but he isn't nearly as powerful as one would think.

Hulk losing EVER is PIS, BS, CSI, ABC, HBO, MADD, WWE, MTV....

Originally posted by Badabing
Hulk losing EVER is PIS, BS, CSI, ABC, HBO, MADD, WWE, MTV.... You forgot ESPN

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Jobbing is seperate from PIS in that PIS is stupidity used to further the plot, while jobbing is a term for when a character is affecting/beating another character who is way beyond their power level because the former character is a cash cow, typically.

PIS: Strange being taken out by Hiler's gun
Jobbing: Batman kicking Spectre
WB (Writer's Bias): Daredevil taking out Wolverine with a throat-shot

Um, that first example doesn't work. Turns out that gun is ludicrously powerful. nosweat

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=440414&highlight=hitler+gun

Even LP admits that one may not be PIS.......

Originally posted by Newjak
You forgot ESPN You're right!

I always thought that CIS would be something like:

Batman fights Bane... he begins to win... as bane is about to take the final hit, batman turns around, not wanting to fight anymore because it's not in his nature to kill... bane gets up, grabs batman and cracks batman's back on his knee........again.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Um, that first example doesn't work. Turns out that gun is ludicrously powerful. nosweat

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=440414&highlight=hitler+gun

Even LP admits that one may not be PIS.......

The gun beat Strange because "It's evil aura was too much for Strange to combat"

Dr. Strange... the Dr. Strange who has faced the likes of Mephisto...

Originally posted by Newjak
So Common Sense has got to play a factor. You know you have to look at powersets realize what someone with said power set can truely accomplish along with the feats.

And that is where KMC is kind of falling apart. We are using to many feats without first taking a look back at the power sets using them and limits they have shown before.

i totally agree with this... a character has a defined power set for years, and some idiot writer comes in and completely ignores it just so he can write the comic he wants to, making a character do something they shouldnt be able to...

Originally posted by pr1983
i totally agree with this... a character has a defined power set for years, and some idiot writer comes in and completely ignores it just so he can write the comic he wants to, making a character do something they shouldnt be able to... Exactly and not only that but writers will come in and completely do things with a character that is past their power set.

Originally posted by Newjak
Exactly and not only that but writers will come in and completely do things with a character that is past their power set.

and then we have to put up with this one feat being vehemently defended in the vs forum, even though its complete lunacy...

Originally posted by pr1983
and then we have to put up with this one feat being vehemently defended in the vs forum, even though its complete lunacy... I know what you mean. Then of course everyone starts to bust out everyone's one time super duper feat

and Logic and Common Sense cry in the background cryoh

Originally posted by Newjak
I know what you mean. Then of course everyone starts to bust out everyone's one time super duper feat

and Logic and Common Sense cry in the background cryoh




at least they have each other...

Originally posted by pr1983
at least they have each other... That is true

Originally posted by Newjak
That is true

yeah... the lack of writers who stick to the characters written histories can be a bit worrying at times though...

Originally posted by pr1983
yeah... the lack of writers who stick to the characters written histories can be a bit worrying at times though... I know what you mean and it isn't even that they know every single bit of it. I don't expect anyone to know that what worries me is when wrriters completey disregard any kind of contintuity simply for sake of making them fit in the story they wrote.

Originally posted by Newjak
I know what you mean and it isn't even that they know every single bit of it. I don't expect anyone to know that what worries me is when wrriters completey disregard any kind of contintuity simply for sake of making them fit in the story they wrote.

and it seems to get more and more common nowadays, though there are a few writers who do seem to follow established continuity, which is nice...

Originally posted by pr1983
and it seems to get more and more common nowadays, though there are a few writers who do seem to follow established continuity, which is nice... I know to me when a character jumps around so many stories from one plot need to another I find myself not very interested in them. To me a character like that looses depth to them.

Originally posted by Newjak
I know to me when a character jumps around so many stories from one plot need to another I find myself not very interested in them. To me a character like that looses depth to them.

or else i'd just make sure i'd read them as much by the same writer as possible... like say, superman in action comics is written different to superman in the superman comic... i seperate them as best i can... i don't try and make them fit together, i just take them as being slightly seperate entities...

Originally posted by pr1983
or else i'd just make sure i'd read them as much by the same writer as possible... like say, superman in action comics is written different to superman in the superman comic... i seperate them as best i can... i don't try and make them fit together, i just take them as being slightly seperate entities... I agree with this. Honestly Superman is one of my favorite characters around but he is possibly one of the biggest examples around of what we've been saying.

And the more I see characters jump around simply to be in comics and sake of plot for awriter the less interesting they become for me.

Wolverine is another example used to be one of my favorite guys now I don't even care to read him anymore.

Originally posted by Newjak
I agree with this. Honestly Superman is one of my favorite characters around but he is possibly one of the biggest examples around of what we've been saying.

And the more I see characters jump around simply to be in comics and sake of plot for awriter the less interesting they become for me.

Wolverine is another example used to be one of my favorite guys now I don't even care to read him anymore.

i think being a superman fan is great right now... you've got donner and johns on action comics, busiek and nicieza (sp?) on superman, and grant morrison on all-star... not bad imo...

Originally posted by pr1983
i think being a superman fan is great right now... you've got donner and johns on action comics, busiek and nicieze on superman, and grant morrison on all-star... not bad imo... Sounds good but Superman has a long way to go before returning back to what I used to like about him.

And from what I hear the upcoming Chronicles of Superman Prime isn't going to be helping my thoughts on the matter.

Originally posted by Newjak
Sounds good but Superman has a long way to go before returning back to what I used to like about him.

And from what I hear the upcoming Chronicles of Superman Prime isn't going to be helping my thoughts on the matter.

see, im actually really liking superman's stuff atm... the last two years in particular for me have been pretty solid stuff, even exceptional at times... imo anyway...

Originally posted by pr1983
see, im actually really liking superman's stuff atm... the last two years in particular for me have been pretty solid stuff, even exceptional at times... imo anyway... I understand to each their own.

I personally don't like Superman being the center of everything and somehow being the be all end all of a story.

I like superman beatable but unwavering and true to his morals.

For me a character should alwaysbe what the symbolize. Superman as of recent I think has gotten away from that. With the Chronicles of Superman and the recent Crisis I don't see Superman being the ultimate useable central plot device not ending.

Originally posted by Newjak
I understand to each their own.

I personally don't like Superman being the center of everything and somehow being the be all end all of a story.

I like superman beatable but unwavering and true to his morals.

For me a character should alwaysbe what the symbolize. Superman as of recent I think has gotten away from that. With the Chronicles of Superman and the recent Crisis I don't see Superman being the ultimate useable central plot device not ending.

you mean he isnt the inspirational figure he's supposed to be?

Originally posted by pr1983
you mean he isnt the inspirational figure he's supposed to be? Yeah I guess you could put it that way that pretty close.

Originally posted by Newjak
Yeah I guess you could put it that way that pretty close.

thats actually what i like about him though... he's at the point where he's questioning whether thats his role in life, whether he's really the one that should be doing that job... i think he'll realise eventually that he is, but until then, i dont mind...

what you said about him being the be all and end all, i can understand that, especially in the wake of IC, but for me, he has to have at least as major a role in the big storylines as anyone else... he is superman after all... but yeah, having diana or hal or whoever beside him would be cool too...

Originally posted by pr1983
thats actually what i like about him though... he's at the point where he's questioning whether thats his role in life, whether he's really the one that should be doing that job... i think he'll realise eventually that he is, but until then, i dont mind...

what you said about him being the be all and end all, i can understand that, especially in the wake of IC, but for me, he has to have at least as major a role in the big storylines as anyone else... he is superman after all... but yeah, having diana or hal or whoever beside him would be cool too... I understand where your coming from

But the way I look at Superman is this he symbolizes Truth Justice and just doing the right thing because it is right.

I think in that statement alone Superman may have th emost vast potential as a character. Why because I like Superman not over the top can do anything. I like Superman the man with the power of a god exploring his more mortal side. I like him facing overwhelming odds and just never giving up even if he should loose.



And I agree Superman should always be somewhat a major figure in the big events I just kind of don't like how he ahs to be the thing through which everything is ended or the main reason why it is ended.

Originally posted by Newjak
I like Superman the man with the power of a god exploring his more mortal side. I like him facing overwhelming odds and just never giving up even if he should loose.

definately, for me, thats what makes him superman as much as anything...



if the bad guy wasn't specifically related to superman, say ares or sinestro, then of course it should be that specific character that has the most effect on the ending...

but for me, these big events are exactly why superman is around... those are what he lives for, the big be all and end all battles for the fate of the world... it may sound fanboyish, but for me superman has to be there at the end, not neccessarily ending the threat, but having a big part in it...

Originally posted by pr1983
definately, for me, thats what makes him superman as much as anything...



if the bad guy wasn't specifically related to superman, say ares or sinestro, then of course it should be that specific character that has the most effect on the ending...

but for me, these big events are exactly why superman is around... those are what he lives for, the big be all and end all battles for the fate of the world... it may sound fanboyish, but for me superman has to be there at the end, not neccessarily ending the threat, but having a big part in it... I agree Superman is about the big event.

I also think Superman though shouldn't be the focal point there are just as strong people as him i nthe these fights. I think where Superman becomes Sueprman is even if he has lost and he can't win he isn't going to give up and he will keep going.

Originally posted by Newjak
I agree Superman is about the big event.

I also think Superman though shouldn't be the focal point there are just as strong people as him i nthe these fights. I think where Superman becomes Sueprman is even if he has lost and he can't win he isn't going to give up and he will keep going.

true too... i agree to a certain extent, he does a bit more favouritism than he should, but if say, the enemy was darskeid, i know people like J'onn and diana and flash are strong, but for the big titanic final battle, i'd have superman there (not necessarily alone tho), because its a personal connection... i think it really depends on the enemy and circumstances as much as anything else...

Originally posted by pr1983
true too... i agree to a certain extent, he does a bit more favouritism than he should, but if say, the enemy was darskeid, i know people like J'onn and diana and flash are strong, but for the big titanic final battle, i'd have superman there (not necessarily alone tho), because its a personal connection... i think it really depends on the enemy and circumstances as much as anything else... I can agree with that.

Originally posted by Newjak
I can agree with that.

Originally posted by pr1983
Although I dson't like my Superman coming in and saving the day when everyone else looses in the JLA.

To me it riuns the concepts he stands for.

Originally posted by Newjak
Although I dson't like my Superman coming in and saving the day when everyone else looses in the JLA.

To me it riuns the concepts he stands for.

jla suck as a team though... individually they're better off...

Originally posted by pr1983
jla suck as a team though... individually they're better off... Oh yeah indivually most writers make them look better although I think Superman tends to be the one who gets to shine most of the time.

Thats another thing I don't like about the JLA when one of then turns evil they all of a sudden can bea the entire team

Originally posted by Newjak
Oh yeah indivually most writers make them look better although I think Superman tends to be the one who gets to shine most of the time.

Thats another thing I don't like about the JLA when one of then turns evil they all of a sudden can bea the entire team

thats true... remember the despero fight? pure crap... the deathstroke one in Identity Crisis too...

Originally posted by pr1983
thats true... remember the despero fight? pure crap... the deathstroke one in Identity Crisis too... Yeah I remeber seeing those.

I will say with the exception of Hal and Flash I think DS wasn't to far off with the rest of them.

Originally posted by Newjak
Yeah I remeber seeing those.

I will say with the exception of Hal and Flash I think DS wasn't to far off with the rest of them.

yeah, hal was rather cheaply beaten i think...

Originally posted by pr1983
yeah, hal was rather cheaply beaten i think... I speak more on the idea that someone with a GL ring who could put the guy in a bubble would instead try and punch someone like DS it just makes no sense.

Or even the fact that he didn't have a force field covering his body from contact

Originally posted by Newjak
I speak more on the idea that someone with a GL ring who could put the guy in a bubble would instead try and punch someone like DS it just makes no sense.

Or even the fact that he didn't have a force field covering his body from contact

yeah, i always wondered why gl's just don't put up a shield going into a fight... pis i think...

Originally posted by pr1983
yeah, i always wondered why gl's just don't put up a shield going into a fight... pis i think... More than likely or evne armour would be better.

Originally posted by Newjak
More than likely or evne armour would be better.

yeah, all that willpower and imagination but no shield...

Originally posted by pr1983
yeah, all that willpower and imagination but no shield... That is so true.

You wonder what must be going throuvh a comic characters mind.

Hal: Let's see this guy just stabbed Flash took out Hawkman and Zantana I know how to deal with him let me punch him

*Throws Punch

Hal: Oh Shit I forgot the shield I can put up

fan voted or not, superman has molested the hulk like an underaged thai whore, in just about every cross over appearance. lots of forum regulars dont like it so to them its not conceievable. even MArvel themselves dont like it, so what do they do? create homages to superman, make them ridculously over powered, then turn around and have them job> ie hulk molesting gladiator...there just happned to be a nuclear plant in the vicinty of thier battle...hulk is all like "hmm ive pucnhed you in that nuclear reactor and noticed that the radiation got to you so let me pucnh you in there again, and see what happens." you know? despite the fact that gladiator regularly travels unaided thru space---you know the place where there is all sorts of radiation? yeah that one.

Also having the sentry listed as the most powerful metahuman on earth but have him acting like a total mental vagina when it comes to using his powers...yep any way to stick it to DC's top man


--end of rant

Originally posted by Newjak
That is so true.

You wonder what must be going throuvh a comic characters mind.

Hal: Let's see this guy just stabbed Flash took out Hawkman and Zantana I know how to deal with him let me punch him

*Throws Punch

Hal: Oh Shit I forgot the shield I can put up

lol, if it had been hal i'd say he'd have just made a giant green fist and smacked ds around like nobodies business... even alan scott would have used one of those ol boxing gloves...

Originally posted by manjaro
fan voted or not, superman has molested the hulk like an underaged thai whore, in just about every cross over appearance. lots of forum regulars dont like it so to them its not conceievable. even MArvel themselves dont like it, so what do they do? create homages to superman, make them ridculously over powered, then turn around and have them job> ie hulk molesting gladiator...there just happned to be a nuclear plant in the vicinty of thier battle...hulk is all like "hmm ive pucnhed you in that nuclear reactor and noticed that the radiation got to you so let me pucnh you in there again, and see what happens." you know? despite the fact that gladiator regularly travels unaided thru space---you know the place where there is all sorts of radiation? yeah that one.

Also having the sentry listed as the most powerful metahuman on earth but have him acting like a total mental vagina when it comes to using his powers...yep any way to stick it to DC's top man


--end of rant

not the nicest mental image, but i agree with that... someone told me yesterday that hulk beat gladiator, and i was like 'wtf?' even though i don't even like gladiator, and i much prefer hulk i'd still find it hard to believe that hulk could take someone like glads...

Originally posted by pr1983
lol, if it had been hal i'd say he'd have just made a giant green fist and smacked ds around like nobodies business... even alan scott would have used one of those ol boxing gloves...



not the nicest mental image, but i agree with that... someone told me yesterday that hulk beat gladiator, and i was like 'wtf?' even though i don't even like gladiator, and i much prefer hulk i'd still find it hard to believe that hulk could take someone like glads... Yeah you think a GL would at least cover the ring.


Yeah Glads like Superman should never loose to Hulk.

Originally posted by Newjak
Yeah you think a GL would at least cover the ring.


Yeah Glads like Superman should never loose to Hulk.

true, its the speed thing... i mean, they're strong enough as it is, but with that much speed they should never be more to hulk than a painful blur...

Originally posted by pr1983
true, its the speed thing... i mean, they're strong enough as it is, but with that much speed they should never be more to hulk than a painful blur... Exactly they should always be able to throw Hulk into Space before Hulk knew what happened

Originally posted by Newjak
Exactly they should always be able to throw Hulk into Space before Hulk knew what happened

yeah, then he can float around for a while and consider the stupidity of trying to fight those guys...

Originally posted by pr1983
yeah, then he can float around for a while and consider the stupidity of trying to fight those guys... Exactly

I love that mental image.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I love that mental image.

as do i... hulk just sitting up there whining about how it was unfair of them to use superspeed...

Originally posted by pr1983
as do i... hulk just sitting up there whining about how it was unfair of them to use superspeed... Actually he would probably be thinking

Why did Hulk listen to fanboys telling Hulk he could win

"When Hulk get down from here, HULK SMASH XMEAT AND DEVILGOBLIN FOR TELLING HULK, HULK WOULD WIN!"

Originally posted by Newjak
Actually he would probably be thinking

Why did Hulk listen to fanboys telling Hulk he could win

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
"When Hulk get down from here, HULK SMASH XMEAT AND DEVILGOBLIN FOR TELLING HULK, HULK WOULD WIN!"

Magneto gets the extra respect from me cuz his powerset is completely different from standardmatter manipulators...cuz he circumvents laws of physics my tweaking elements with magentsim to suit his specific needs, so it takes an assload of power, moreso than a standard MM'lator would require to achieve the same effect, they would just breeze up out of no where

Originally posted by batdude123
Face it, Jak. Magneto is a legitimate herald level character. Surfer, and Stardust would stomp a mudhole in his stinkhole.
And then repeat the thing he did to Apoc.

Herald level... maybe... but still pales in comparison to the higher models.

What you held back sure I be;ieve in a match where you needed to show just how strong Mags was that you would hold back his best feats.


Honestly I think your reading too much into him tapping into the Earth's Magentic Field. It doesn't mean he was using all of it it simply means he was tapping into it not that he was absolutly controlling it.

Besides the wormhole feat all of your scans are weak BD. And as for the energy needed to create a wromhole I would like to hear your exact caclulations on the matter. I would like to see your awesome evidence on the energy needed. Why because I would like to point out that a wormhole is a theortical place in space that has yet to be observed or shown. They have never been recreated or their axact nature known. The fact is that no one knows where they are what they are or what they can do. The fact is the known energy needed for creating a wormhole is theotical at best.

I would also like to point out that Magento only created a small wormhole that he used to travel to a place to save his children. So whatever theoritcal calculations you do have would have to be toned down expoentially to begin with.

Also besides the fact every one of your other scans is small time manipulation I still feel very safe in my statement. That yes he isn't nearly as strng as you think.

Although I am willing to add this simply for sake of whatifs. He can be a jigh-midtier to low high level but is in no way shape or form close to the herald class at all.

You just served to strengthen my comments already.

Magneto isn't herald level.












durfist

I love how you tried to bring in the Magneto respect thread especially since if you really wanted to try and compare those feats with real Herald level feats Mags would be left in the dust and you should know this.


And as for Mags having every power in the book you really want to try to claim that and let's say put him next to Silver Surfer, A Green Lantern, Even most of Thor's exotic feats show more actual power than that.

Face it you put Magneto next to any real Herald level characters and his feats go down the drain fast.


By the way you never said that Magneto couldn't control the Earth's entire magnetic field but you tried very hard to imply it. The fact is he hasn't and you can't even show where he has done a major test of power to a planet because the simple fact is there isn't any for him.

The fact is that beings like Doom have stalemated Magneto. Magneto's durability has him crying in pain when Gambit hits him with energy cards (Even if it is in the face). The fact is that the X-Men can beat him and have done so many times and if he was as powerful as you say they shouldn't even mess with him.

You dared me to pick any body below herald that could beat him.

Wonder Man could. Aquaman could. Super Skrull could. Doom could. And flat out almost any herald level being owns him to the nth degree.

I don't see where you can't see this BD.

The fact is you can name a million mediocre feats but they still don't compare to Silver Surfer blowing up planets, Thor moving planetary objects, Gladiator punching apart planets, Beta Ray Bill one shotting planets, Green Lanterns moving planets, Superman holding moving a planet....

I think your getting the picture BD before going and trying to claim someone is on a level make sure to realize what that level actually means and what needs to be done to be in it.

Mags really doesn't have the feats

By the way BD I think your confusing the notion of power level with practical powers.

Honestly I understand that in terms of practicality Magneto has a very good power especially against most living organisms that require electrical impulses to control movement.

Iceman has the same thing going for him. His feats aren't all that impressive its just his power is very practical. Even BW won't say Iceman can beat true to form heralds one on one. In fact BW understands Iceman would loose to people like Silver Surfer no problem.

Its the same exact thing with Mags. He has a very good power that can be hard to defend against that doesn't mean his power Level is herald.

You need to understand the difference.

Originally posted by Badabing
Magneto isn't herald level.


durfist
Originally posted by Newjak
I love how you tried to bring in the Magneto respect thread especially since if you really wanted to try and compare those feats with real Herald level feats Mags would be left in the dust and you should know this.


And as for Mags having every power in the book you really want to try to claim that and let's say put him next to Silver Surfer, A Green Lantern, Even most of Thor's exotic feats show more actual power than that.

Face it you put Magneto next to any real Herald level characters and his feats go down the drain fast.


By the way you never said that Magneto couldn't control the Earth's entire magnetic field but you tried very hard to imply it. The fact is he hasn't and you can't even show where he has done a major test of power to a planet because the simple fact is there isn't any for him.

The fact is that beings like Doom have stalemated Magneto. Magneto's durability has him crying in pain when Gambit hits him with energy cards (Even if it is in the face). The fact is that the X-Men can beat him and have done so many times and if he was as powerful as you say they shouldn't even mess with him.

You dared me to pick any body below herald that could beat him.

Wonder Man could. Aquaman could. Super Skrull could. Doom could. And flat out almost any herald level being owns him to the nth degree.

I don't see where you can't see this BD.

The fact is you can name a million mediocre feats but they still don't compare to Silver Surfer blowing up planets, Thor moving planetary objects, Gladiator punching apart planets, Beta Ray Bill one shotting planets, Green Lanterns moving planets, Superman holding moving a planet....

I think your getting the picture BD before going and trying to claim someone is on a level make sure to realize what that level actually means and what needs to be done to be in it.

Mags really doesn't have the feats I see Newjak went into a bit more detail than I did. durfist No wonder I have him profiled.

Originally posted by Newjak
I love how you tried to bring in the Magneto respect thread especially since if you really wanted to try and compare those feats with real Herald level feats Mags would be left in the dust and you should know this.

I'm not comparing him to guys like Green Lantern or Silver Surfer. I'm comparing him to guys like Red Shift, Terrax, Graviton, Exodus, Count Nefaria, etc.

Tell me, when exactly have these guys that I mentioned above done something akin to manipulating and warping the space-time continuum?

He has the ability to defeat guys like Martian Manhunter, Superman, Wonder woman, Thor etc... (maybe not for the majority in some cases, but still)

Originally posted by Newjak
And as for Mags having every power in the book you really want to try to claim that and let's say put him next to Silver Surfer, A Green Lantern, Even most of Thor's exotic feats show more actual power than that.

That is what is called a figure of speech. All I meant by it is that he has A LOT of powers.

Originally posted by Newjak
Face it you put Magneto next to any real Herald level characters and his feats go down the drain fast.

Not at all. His higher feats are totally comparable. Like the fact that he's PUNKED Thor on three different occasions.

Originally posted by Newjak
By the way you never said that Magneto couldn't control the Earth's entire magnetic field but you tried very hard to imply it. The fact is he hasn't and you can't even show where he has done a major test of power to a planet because the simple fact is there isn't any for him.

That's a matter of perspective, and you were way off. I never said anything about him manipulating the entire Magnetosphere.

Originally posted by Newjak
The fact is that beings like Doom have stalemated Magneto. Magneto's durability has him crying in pain when Gambit hits him with energy cards (Even if it is in the face). The fact is that the X-Men can beat him and have done so many times and if he was as powerful as you say they shouldn't even mess with him.

Guess what? Doom has given Thor a hell of a time before. He's Earth's second greatest sorcerer after Dr. Strange. Hell, he's beaten Adam Warlock and Kang at the same time. It's not THAT big of a deal to stalemate him.

And yet, Magneto has taken shots from Namor and Colossus without the shield without suffering any damage.

You know, there must be some divine energy in those cards, considering Gambit has also taken out Gladiator with his kinetically charged cards as well.

Originally posted by Newjak
You dared me to pick any body below herald that could beat him.

Indeed I did.

Originally posted by Newjak
Wonder Man could

How? By pounding on his shields?

Originally posted by Newjak
Aquaman could.

How? Magneto has insane psychic defenses, not to mention his telepathic hampering helmet he has (it was stated that it blocks telepathy after the New X-Men arc). From there, he's just another brawler. Magneto would EASILY take Aquaman out.

Originally posted by Newjak
Super Skrull could.

Uh... no. Super Skrull is less powerful and less versatile. He wouldn't beat Magneto.

Originally posted by Newjak
Doom could.

Uh, well considering Doom is herald level...

Not only does he have his tech, but he's a high level sorcerer. And Magneto has beaten him before anyway.

Originally posted by Newjak
And flat out almost any herald level being owns him to the nth degree.

Incredibly false.

Originally posted by Newjak
I don't see where you can't see this BD.

Interesting, because I can't see any justifications for him not being a herald level. All of your reasons flat out suck, I'm sorry to say. You assume that "herald level" means being equal to Silver Surfer or GL. Just because Magneto isn't as powerful as SS or GL doesn't mean he's not on their level.

Originally posted by Newjak
The fact is you can name a million mediocre feats but they still don't compare to Silver Surfer blowing up planets, Thor moving planetary objects, Gladiator punching apart planets, Beta Ray Bill one shotting planets, Green Lanterns moving planets, Superman holding moving a planet....

Disabling every machine across the globe, manipulating the earth's magnetic field to hamper long ranged telepathy, controlling all the satellites across the globe, hurling a state-sized base into orbit? These may not be as good as actually blowing up a planet, but they are CERTAINLY top tier feats of power.

Originally posted by Newjak
I think your getting the picture BD before going and trying to claim someone is on a level make sure to realize what that level actually means and what needs to be done to be in it.

I know perfectly well what it means to be a herald level character. It's not my fault that you're delusional of what it takes to be considered one.

Originally posted by Newjak
Mags really doesn't have the feats

Uh... yes, he does.

Batdude KNEW not to quote me! durfist

Terrax recently blew up a planet. Red Shift more than likely cuts through the shields no problem. Exodus isn't herald level and Count Neferia would punk Magneto as well. GO ahead make a Magneto vs Count Neferia thread and see how it goes.

I would like to point out that any and all teleportation is a breach in the space time continuum my friend. Why because you literally are taking the mass from one spot and relocating it to another without simply moving it through the space provded.

So does that mean Cloak is herald level, is Nightcralwer herald level, is Blink herald level, no one of those people are close class to the highest tier most commonly referred to as herald but all them can teleport and thus can mess with the space time continuum.

The fact alone that you think that Magneto can defeat the Martian Manhunter shows how very little you know about the Herald class to begin with. MM would punk Magneto any day and every day of the week. Superman and Wonder Woman would both beat Magneto to the nth degree.

This is the only quote worthy thing. You know for someone who believes religiously that the fact that since Thor can't handle speed even though he fights super speedsters. So I find it funny that you would try to say these are reasons why he would be herald level.

So basically it only ok if it works for you right. The fact is that even you understand to some degree that if Thor were using the full extent of his power he would win the solid majority. I think it is quite safe to say Thor using the brunt of his power rapes Mags.

So your contradicting yourself in trying to say those things.

Oh by the way I understand that Magneto has a bunch of powers. Beings like Psylocke have a bunch of powers. Iron Man has a lot of powers. Vision has an arsenal of powers at his disposal. Those guys aren't herald level either.

And Doom isn't herald level. He is a big threat with tons of prep but the fact is that his power level is roughly Ironman level as they have stalemated quite a few times. It is just the fact that Doom's armor is shielded against Magnetism so when Doom and Mags fought it was all about power level and they stalemated. It was all about the power level which wasn't that impressive.


Super Skrull with a bubble to the brain for the win


Ok I lied with was quote worthy as well.

You said so yourself They may not be as good as blowing up a planet heck they aren't even in the the same ballpark in terms of being good. I could continue to show what average based Herald level feats are but then they still are continent level feats which are still way above a state moving feat. Big Barda has lifted a continent, Black Bolt has whispered through the planet and caused a shock wave on the other side of a planet and those people are generally considered weaker herald level beings


I seriously don't think you understand the raw power need to be a herald and I love how to didn't quote my practical vs power level post because well it is true Mags power level isn't nearly herald level.

and you wonder why some of us avoid the versus forum.

Originally posted by Newjak
The fact is that beings like Doom have stalemated Magneto. Magneto's durability has him crying in pain when Gambit hits him with energy cards (Even if it is in the face). The fact is that the X-Men can beat him and have done so many times and if he was as powerful as you say they shouldn't even mess with him. Stalemating Doom is called a high end feat...
Hell and even Magneto beating him is like bullshit...

Doom is underated... really he is.
He has one-shotted Adam Warlock, then beat Kang, then Warlock got up, tried to speedblitz Doom. Doom turned around and one-shotted him... again. Then he went and beat Magus into submission...
Is this a low end feat?

Hell Doom has even taken out a weakened Surfer with one shot, and his robots held Strange, while Doom was about to destroy him...

He has learned to use the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak in mere seconds, just by whatching some magicians. Then he went and pawned quite a bit of them, and at the start of the thing, Doom admitted he was a noob in magic...
This was BEFORE Doom spent many weeks with Dr Strange learning how to use magic...

Iron Man doing anything to him, or taking anything from him is bullshit.
I've listed some offense feats, but his defense is also top of the line...
Thanos with the Power Gem would agree, and Doom was unshielded...

Plus, Doom's shield has had him get put almost into orbit, all the way around Limbo, without any physical strain on it what-so-ever.

Plus, Doom has fought Thor a couple times, and gave him a hard time... hell he even put him in a hold using physical powers...

I can give scans of everything mentioned, but I am too lazy right now...

Doom is high up there... and you're only strengthening Batdude's case...





Also, about Gambit...
Gambit threw cards right in an unprotected/unsuspecting Magneto's face... and... well... it did nothing to him... the scans shown on the forums blot out a lot of this... but... luckly, I have them, and the comic...
Also, Charles can't even break through his psi-defenses alone...
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/6484/xmenseries202526yg8.th.jpg

Notice the top panel... ya, that is usually the only one shown...
http://img469.imageshack.us/img469/2389/xmenseries202527az9.th.jpg

Oh, and if you notice... Charles and Jean were in his mind too, while this was happening...
And, the cards didn't even really hurt him... in the face... with just his own natural duribility...

Originally posted by bigbran
Stalemating Doom is called a high end feat...
Hell and even Magneto beating him is like bullshit...

Doom is underated... really he is.
He has one-shotted Adam Warlock, then beat Kang, then Warlock got up, tried to speedblitz Doom. Doom turned around and one-shotted him... again. Then he went and beat Magus into submission...
Is this a low end feat?

Hell Doom has even taken out a weakened Surfer with one shot, and his robots held Strange, while Doom was about to destroy him...

He has learned to use the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak in mere seconds, just by whatching some magicians. Then he went and pawned quite a bit of them, and at the start of the thing, Doom admitted he was a noob in magic...
This was BEFORE Doom spent many weeks with Dr Strange learning how to use magic...

Iron Man doing anything to him, or taking anything from him is bullshit.
I've listed some offense feats, but his defense is also top of the line...
Thanos with the Power Gem would agree, and Doom was unshielded...

Plus, Doom's shield has had him get put almost into orbit, all the way around Limbo, without any physical strain on it what-so-ever.

Plus, Doom has fought Thor a couple times, and gave him a hard time... hell he even put him in a hold using physical powers...

I can give scans of everything mentioned, but I am too lazy right now...

Doom is high up there... and you're only strengthening Batdude's case...





Also, about Gambit...
Gambit threw cards right in an unprotected/unsuspecting Magneto's face... and... well... it did nothing to him... the scans shown on the forums blot out a lot of this... but... luckly, I have them, and the comic...
Also, Charles can't even break through his psi-defenses alone...
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/6484/xmenseries202526yg8.th.jpg

Notice the top panel... ya, that is usually the only one shown...
http://img469.imageshack.us/img469/2389/xmenseries202527az9.th.jpg

Oh, and if you notice... Charles and Jean were in his mind too, while this was happening...
And, the cards didn't even really hurt him... in the face... with just his own natural duribility...

Ok Batdude. if you say Mags is herald level, I'll agree. low-mid tier herald level. But you have to acknowledge Apoc is mid tier herald level. and that Apocalypse and Magneto are comparable at least.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Ok Batdude. if you say Mags is herald level, I'll agree. low-mid tier herald level. But you have to acknowledge Apoc is mid tier herald level. and that Apocalypse and Magneto are comparable at least.

Fine. srug I'll throw you a bone.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Ok Batdude. if you say Mags is herald level, I'll agree. low-mid tier herald level. But you have to acknowledge Apoc is mid tier herald level. and that Apocalypse and Magneto are comparable at least. And yet... we all know that's bullshit so your example doesn't work...

In my opinon Magneto is not herald Level and untill Galactus makes him one its really not an issue for me,i am ok with people saying or thinking he is ,everybody has their opinon,but my mind has not been swayed by anything here or in the magneto respect thread

Without him consiously using his power to augment his strength and duribility i am not going to just Believe his natural duribility can take shots from colossus or even charged cards from Gambit to his face,unless maybe they dont want to kill him?

Show me any Bio or stats that show anything,anything other than magnetos armor he wears as his protection,and i dont mean resistances that come with his power or the helmut(well as armor sure),

I am to believe if magneto was sleeping and colossus went to kill him with a punch and connected,magneto would get up and fight back? i think he would be dead, or gambit went to assasinate Mag's and got to him while surprising him and connected with even a butter knife( to an assasin it can kill) that magneto would not be killed or close?
and i am not talking about his enhanced reflexes and such,i am talking about him taking a hit, unprepared and without his power active

I find it a this a little misleading,but no disrespect,writers and artist are partly responsible for most questionable aspects of characters

Originally posted by starlock
In my opinon Magneto is not herald Level and untill Galactus makes him one its really not an issue for me,i am ok with people saying or thinking he is ,everybody has their opinon,but my mind has not been swayed by anything here or in the magneto respect thread

Without him consiously using his power to augment his strength and duribility i am not going to just Believe his natural duribility can take shots from colossus or even charged cards from Gambit to his face,unless maybe they dont want to kill him?

Show me any Bio or stats that show anything,anything other than magnetos armor he wears as his protection,and i dont mean resistances that come with his power or the helmut(well as armor sure),

I am to believe if magneto was sleeping and colossus went to kill him with a punch and connected,magneto would get up and fight back? i think he would be dead, or gambit went to assasinate Mag's and got to him while surprising him and connected with even a butter knife( to an assasin it can kill) that magneto would not be killed or close?
and i am not talking about his enhanced reflexes and such,i am talking about him taking a hit, unprepared and without his power active

I find it a this a little misleading,but no disrespect,writers and artist are partly responsible for most questionable aspects of characters

if his powers weren't active, he'd be dead if he was hit hard enough, though as was said, his suit does act as a type of body armour... as far back as x-men #1, he took a roundhouse kick from psylocke (a brilliant fighter by any measure), and still fought on...

he'd have to be hit hard enough to kill him, but i'd say it can be done...

Well Mags has taken shot from Thors hammer and several nukes......hell Mags even said in Secret Wars the only person who was a threat to him was Thor, he didnt even care about the other heroes and that included the Hulk as well.

Considering that Thor can take on heralds and that Mags can fight Thor, doesnt that imply that Mags is herald level?

This issue about his power being switched on or off.....well thats just a weakness Mags has but the facts seem to imply that he can be herald level.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well Mags has taken shot from Thors hammer and several nukes......hell Mags even said in Secret Wars the only person who was a threat to him was Thor, he didnt even care about the other heroes and that included the Hulk as well.

Considering that Thor can take on heralds and that Mags can fight Thor, doesnt that imply that Mags is herald level?

This issue about his power being switched on or off.....well thats just a weakness Mags has but the facts seem to imply that he can be herald level.

i'm not convinced magneto is as powerful as some people are saying...

magneto thinks himself superior to pretty much everyone, so it doesnt surprise me that he said what he said...

he's powerful yes, and he has had some high showings as of late, but herald level, im not sure to be honest...

Originally posted by pr1983

magneto thinks himself superior to pretty much everyone, so it doesnt surprise me that he said what he said...



Yes, but the fact that Mags shields have taken shots from Thor and She-Hulk at the same time implies that in this case Mags was correct.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes, but the fact that Mags shields have taken shots from Thor and She-Hulk at the same time implies that in this case Mags was correct.

thats his shield, and yes it is powerful, but its not something he uses constantly, as seen in his many fights against the xmen... and i doubt it would last long against the thor's and she-hulk's of the world...

Originally posted by pr1983
thats his shield, and yes it is powerful, but its not something he uses constantly, as seen in his many fights against the xmen...

Meh...im not sure if thats PIS. Mags never seems to use his powers against Collosus and Wolverine. I think Mags has good showings aginst the Avengers.


Originally posted by pr1983

and i doubt it would last long against the thor's and she-hulk's of the world...

You lost me....I said Mags has taken shots from Thors hammer and She-Hulk at the same time......whats 'of the world' mean?

Yet thats why Mag is smart and 9/10 always fights in his element, meaning hes a strateigest, knows how to fully utilize his powers to the fullest, and is a beast with them. In any case hell lose to some one who will have outsmarted, overpowered, or fought him out with with numbers.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Meh...im not sure if thats PIS. Mags never seems to use his powers against Collosus and Wolverine. I think Mags has good showings aginst the Avengers.

but he's a bad guy (when he fights them anyway), he has to perform better against the avengers than he would against the x-men, due to the avengers being more powerful... that's the nature of comics...



as in, he may take one or two full on shots, but i don't see him being able to withstand a constant barrage...

Magneto is herald level.

Very low herald level, but herald level nonetheless.

He isn't the Silver Surfer, but he's a step above Iron-Man, the Hulk, and Namor.

Originally posted by Soljer
Magneto is herald level.

Very low herald level, but herald level nonetheless.

He isn't the Silver Surfer, but he's a step above Iron-Man, the Hulk, and Namor.

i think given the majority of his showings, even that's debatable... for comparisons sake, who else would you consider to be very low herald level?

think about the fact that mageto is still more powerful than firelord or airwalker at thier best...if they can be a herlad well gosh darn it, nothing's stopping him from being one too, so i would actually say he=s a mid level herald....he cant absorb suns or shatter planets in one blow but still.........

Originally posted by pr1983
who else would you consider to be very low herald level?

Apocalypse? kwasny

Originally posted by Evil_Ash
Apocalypse? kwasny

Originally posted by bigbran


Hey, he said very low.

Originally posted by Evil_Ash
Hey, he said very low. Originally posted by bigbran

Originally posted by bigbran

Originally posted by Evil_Ash
Apocalypse? kwasny Originally posted by Evil_Ash

durdurdurdur

Originally posted by Evil_Ash
Apocalypse? kwasny Originally posted by Evil_Ash
durdurdurdur

Originally posted by manjaro
think about the fact that mageto is still more powerful than firelord
Maybe KMC forum Magneto with our awesome no PIS/CIS rules but that definitely isn't what comics show given that Firelord has looked extremely well against Silver Surfer on occasion.

Originally posted by bigbran


homerhomerhomerhomer

Originally posted by Evil_Ash
Apocalypse? kwasny Originally posted by Evil_Ash
homerhomerhomerhomer

Originally posted by Evil_Ash
Apocalypse? kwasny Originally posted by Evil_Ash
durdurdurdur

Originally posted by Evil_Ash
Apocalypse? kwasny
Originally posted by Evil_Ash

oh you now who....um whats hie name......high evolutionary...if that guy isnt herald level and dont know who the f **** is

Originally posted by inamilist
every time

there is no objective mechanism for determining valid feats

PIS just refers to instances where something goes against the general consensus of what should have happened. Basically, PIS = what most people say "IHLI, IDH" to

I determine valid feats by majority of the character's career. If some character hangs with the likes of Hulk for majority of his or her career but then gets knocked out by Captain America in few issues, it's PIS. Or if Captain America has shown skills and strategic thinking in most of his career but then is outhinked by the Scorpion, it's PIS.

Basically, if character fights smartly 99% of the time, but in 1% of his comics he is portrayed as an idiot, that 1% is PIS.

Originally posted by pr1983



as in, he may take one or two full on shots, but i don't see him being able to withstand a constant barrage...

Well I kinda got the impression that Thor and She Hulk were pounding on his shields......obvoulsy he couldnt withstand forever but he took quite a few shot.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
I determine valid feats by majority of the character's career. If some character hangs with the likes of Hulk for majority of his or her career but then gets knocked out by Captain America in few issues, it's PIS. Or if Captain America has shown skills and strategic thinking in most of his career but then is outhinked by the Scorpion, it's PIS.

Basically, if character fights smartly 99% of the time, but in 1% of his comics he is portrayed as an idiot, that 1% is PIS.

lol

I think I was being a little cynical when I wrote that... It may have been during the Storm fiasco...

What you do is probably the best way for determining PIS that I can think of. I'd also be willing to add that appearances in a character's own book count for more than crossover appearances written by people less familiar with the them, but I hardly think that is an outlandish statement. As an extension from what I was saying previously, people with the best general idea of where individuals fall on a "power scale" have formed those ideas based on exactly what you are talking about, and therefore form a loose consensus of how powerful different individuals are. PIS would then be ideas that go against this, and rightfully so.

In retrospect, maybe the point "Its not perfect so there" could have been kept to myself.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler


Basically, if character fights smartly 99% of the time, but in 1% of his comics he is portrayed as an idiot, that 1% is PIS.

But what if a character fights like an idiot 99% of the time, and intelligently 1%?

Case in point, the flash? Are his best feats PIS? Or his worst?

I mean, comparitively, getting tripped by Deathstroke and knocked out by Captain Boomerang is Flash's 99%, whereas infinite mass punching, running to the end of time, beating teleportation in a race, and moving so fast that Superman's standing still are DEFINITELY the 1%.

Which is really the plot induced stupidity, though?

Originally posted by Soljer
But what if a character fights like an idiot 99% of the time, and intelligently 1%?

Case in point, the flash? Are his best feats PIS? Or his worst?

I mean, comparitively, getting tripped by Deathstroke and knocked out by Captain Boomerang is Flash's 99%, whereas infinite mass punching, running to the end of time, beating teleportation in a race, and moving so fast that Superman's standing still are DEFINITELY the 1%.

Which is really the plot induced stupidity, though?

Damn good point.

I am no expert, but cases like the flash seem to be more the exception than the rule...

It certainly has to do with the relationship between CIS and PIS. Maybe it is 99% power showings + CIS = Valid feat?

But determining if something is PIS or CIS is probably a matter to itself.

If flash refuses to use picosecond combat, is it because his character usually doesn't do it, or is it the case that in this instance the writer chose for him to not perform said feat, for plot based reasons (ie, more than a 2 panel fight)?

Exactly.

I mean, Doctor Strange has stopped time, instanenously, and without so much as a word or gesture...

He has also said that he HATES manipulating time. Not because it's hard, but because he feels that it's not 'right.'

So, him not using his insane mastery over time is not a matter of PIS, but simply CIS. His own restrictions placed upon himself.

But with the Flash, and characters like him, getting stabbed by Deathstroke or one-shotted with a boomerang CAN'T be CIS.

It's not like the Flash DOESN'T have lightspeed reaction time....Even if the majority of his feats are lower showings that present him getting tagged by characters that move at VERY sub-luminal speeds. Even sub-sonic speeds.

:-\.

Originally posted by Soljer
But what if a character fights like an idiot 99% of the time, and intelligently 1%?

Case in point, the flash? Are his best feats PIS? Or his worst?

I mean, comparitively, getting tripped by Deathstroke and knocked out by Captain Boomerang is Flash's 99%, whereas infinite mass punching, running to the end of time, beating teleportation in a race, and moving so fast that Superman's standing still are DEFINITELY the 1%.

Which is really the plot induced stupidity, though? Well, best feats usually include specific instances like fighting for the life of his loved ones or saving the world...one can't say that he is really trying to achieve the same potential with your average villain of the day. I'd say best feats are the pinnacle of the character's ability, his "all-out mode". Generally in forum fights it seems that the character is going all out, usually with bloodlust mode.

IMO, best feats don't contrast as much with the average 80% of the feats. For example, Flash. 80% of the time he actually deals with the likes of Boomerang and Heat Wave easily (in fact, more often then not he is fighting the entire Rogues as group), when he doesn't have any specific reason for fighting then just stopping them from destroying the city building on something.

Then there is the best feats, where Zoom or someone is attempting to destroy his entire family, or millions are going to die, or the entire world is at stake...it's understandable that he will perform VASTLY better at those situations, kinda like the mothers who flip cars on top of their kids. Or then they are just plain pissed off.

But then there are the situations when he fights like a retard, with some crook punching is lights out. No reason given why he suddenly went so stupid. No explanation like in the above situation. I count those as PIS.

In fights, I usually count PIS situations if one of the combatants is fighting stupidly, or being far below their usual level in terms of power or skill.

maybe we need a Flash Induced Stupidity?