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Who is more ruthless to come out on top
best of 10

current andclassic

"Carnies."

-circus folk, smell like cabbage.

Carnage.

Sabretooth is deadly and can heal, but Carnage is fast, agile, powerful and can form himself into weapons and is almost as fast as Spiderman.

Originally posted by python99
Who is more ruthless to come out on top
best of 10

current andclassic

carnage

Originally posted by guy222
carnage


yup

This would be a beautiful fight to watch but I think in the end carnage will take it but not without a fight.

Originally posted by carver9
This would be a beautiful fight to watch but I think in the end carnage will take it but not without a fight.

a sure tear jerker of a battle, Epic actually but Carny would hack Victor in pieces

Carnage 8/10

I guess this debate is over

Originally posted by Seraphim XIII
Carnage.

Sabretooth is deadly and can heal, but Carnage is fast, agile, powerful and can form himself into weapons and is almost as fast as Spiderman.

Also, one thing. He isn't almost as fast as Spiderman. He is faster than spiderman.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Also, one thing. He isn't almost as fast as Spiderman. He is faster than spiderman.

No, not true. He isn't faster than Spiderman. It's hard to determine in the comics, but in the animated series produced by Marvel and Fox, it showed Carnage to be slower than Spiderman, seeing as various episodes after the symbiote was attached to the rocket, carnage was outrun by Spidey and spidey proved to be quicker by dodging most of his attacks on the episode when Spidey and Venom try to banish him and he turns his arm into an axe in an attempt to kill Spidey.

Sorry.

Originally posted by Seraphim XIII
No, not true. He isn't faster than Spiderman. It's hard to determine in the comics, but in the animated series produced by Marvel and Fox, it showed Carnage to be slower than Spiderman, seeing as various episodes after the symbiote was attached to the rocket, carnage was outrun by Spidey and spidey proved to be quicker by dodging most of his attacks on the episode when Spidey and Venom try to banish him and he turns his arm into an axe in an attempt to kill Spidey.

Sorry.

Classic Carnage was told to be faster than spiderman and stronger than venom...

also, since when do we use cartoons as a basis for what a characters strengths and weaknesses are?

Originally posted by Rick/Genis
Classic Carnage was told to be faster than spiderman and stronger than venom...

also, since when do we use cartoons as a basis for what a characters strengths and weaknesses are?

In the comics, Spiderman is seen effectively dodging almost all of his hits (Even with Carnage not being able to be sensed by Spidey sensed.)

Carnage is stronger than Spiderman, yes. Faster? I don't think so.

The Carnage Cosmic was faster than Spidey. That's about it.

Originally posted by LordFear
a sure tear jerker of a battle, Epic actually but Carny would hack Victor in pieces

How can you shred adamantium to pieces. If hulk or colossus cant to it how is cleutus going to do it. How is carnage going to stop sabertooth from healing. How is carnage just going to stop sabertooth period unless giving his all. It would be a good fight but carnage would walk out victorious.

Originally posted by carver9
How can you shred adamantium to pieces.

I can see Carnage stripping the flesh from Sabertooth. Both Wolvie and Sabertooth can die from excessive blood loss or too much head trauma from a beatdown.




Both the Hulk and Colossus cannot turn their hands into Axes, swords, prods, Hammers ... I dunno.



How is Sabertooth going to stop Carnage?



Works both ways.

Same thing works for

Okay?

Carnage destroys Sabertooth.

Originally posted by crimsonphoenix
Carnage destroys Sabertooth.

Originally posted by carver9
How can you shred adamantium to pieces. If hulk or colossus cant to it how is cleutus going to do it. How is carnage going to stop sabertooth from healing. How is carnage just going to stop sabertooth period unless giving his all. It would be a good fight but carnage would walk out victorious.

Listen Carnage would keep hacking away at chunks of flesh leaving only the skeleton

Carnage would destroy Sabretooth.

Originally posted by python99
I guess this debate is over

SABERTOOTH ...Carnage gets Curbstomped....

Carnage. Sabertooth hasn't a chance, much as the proverbial snowball in hell.

Originally posted by AngryManatee
Carnage. Sabertooth hasn't a chance, much as the proverbial snowball in hell.

Yup ... but I'd still love to see it happen.

Carnage would be wearing creeds skin in similar fashion to creed wearing wendigo.

Originally posted by Big Sexy
Carnage would be wearing creeds skin in similar fashion to creed wearing wendigo.

Carnage 9/10

Originally posted by boriquaking55
Carnage 9/10


Damn! its that easy

Originally posted by Seraphim XIII
Carnage.

Sabretooth is deadly and can heal, but Carnage is fast, agile, powerful and can form himself into weapons and is almost as fast as Spiderman.

"almost as fast as spiderman"





carnage is FASTER than Spiderman.

meh, I'd say carnage MIGHT take the majority here.. on the other hand... Sabretooth MIGHT eat him like he did those river of flesh dogs in the latest x-men book.

Originally posted by Rick/Genis
Classic Carnage was told to be faster than spiderman and stronger than venom...

also, since when do we use cartoons as a basis for what a characters strengths and weaknesses are?

Since dimwits from the GDF came into the versus forums thinking that they run the place.

Originally posted by jasonk3
SABERTOOTH ...Carnage gets Curbstomped....


Well thats your opinon.
Gonna back that up?

As much as I don't like Carnage, I think he has what it takes to defeat Sabertooth quite easy like.

Originally posted by python99


I was joking about the Carnage getting curbstomped comment...thats why I had the emoticon underneath. My bad, perhaps if I had used "" it would have been more clear.

Originally posted by jasonk3
I was joking about the Carnage getting curbstomped comment...thats why I had the emoticon underneath. My bad, perhaps if I had used "" it would have been more clear.



Cool

Originally posted by python99
Cool

Carnage would win but I really dont think that it would be a curb stomp. I dont think that any fighter with claws could curb stomp sabertooth, even though carnage is more than that. Like I said its a good fight but carnage wont be looking pretty after it because sabertooth is a person who thrives off of pain and carnage would be giving some but I think that with sabertooth strength and claws, he can punch a lot of holes in carnage and I do think that the person inside of him MIGHT feel it. By the way spiderman did take carnage out once with mere punches and sabertooth is as strong as spiderman was back then. Carnage 6/10

As I have said before, Sabretooth easily wins this. Aquaman just doesn't have enough going in his favor to allow me to give him the win the majority of the time. Especially with Wolverine helping him...

Oh, so Sabretooth is fighting Carnage now?

Bummer.

If Sabretooth wasn't enough for Venom a few days ago, why would someone think he stands a chance against a Venom's nastier offspring? Can't we give Sabretooth someone easy to fight like Howard the Duck or Moon-Boy so he can have a break? Maybe just let him have a second crack at Aquaman so he can rest up a little before he has to go get crushed by Thanos or whoever next week? I wonder if people make Sabretooth (or Wolverine) fight against guys who clearly outclass them because they think they actually have a chance, or do they just like to see them get beat?

Originally posted by Sabretooth
As I have said before, Sabretooth easily wins this. Aquaman just doesn't have enough going in his favor to allow me to give him the win the majority of the time. Especially with Wolverine helping him...

Oh, so Sabretooth is fighting Carnage now?

Bummer.

If Sabretooth wasn't enough for Venom a few days ago, why would someone think he stands a chance against a Venom's nastier offspring? Can't we give Sabretooth someone easy to fight like Howard the Duck or Moon-Boy so he can have a break? Maybe just let him have a second crack at Aquaman so he can rest up a little before he has to go get crushed by Thanos or whoever next week? I wonder if people make Sabretooth (or Wolverine) fight against guys who clearly outclass them because they think they actually have a chance, or do they just like to see them get beat?


Good point and I do agree with you about the aquaman fight.

Originally posted by carver9
Carnage would win but I really dont think that it would be a curb stomp. I dont think that any fighter with claws could curb stomp sabertooth, even though carnage is more than that. Like I said its a good fight but carnage wont be looking pretty after it because sabertooth is a person who thrives off of pain and carnage would be giving some but I think that with sabertooth strength and claws, he can punch a lot of holes in carnage and I do think that the person inside of him MIGHT feel it. By the way spiderman did take carnage out once with mere punches and sabertooth is as strong as spiderman was back then. Carnage 6/10

Yeah Spidey beat carnage with mere punches but Sabretooth and Spidey have 2 different fighting styles. Sabretooths style is an aggressive type, which can leave you vulnerable to impact. Spidey on the other hand tends to go in and let you make mistakes that will get you left open to take some shots. Both styles have there strengths and weaknesses. I think Spidey style is a more frustrating style to deal with because he just moves around too damn much. This battle is just between 2 aggressive beasts.

Originally posted by Seraphim XIII
In the comics, Spiderman is seen effectively dodging almost all of his hits (Even with Carnage not being able to be sensed by Spidey sensed.)

Carnage is stronger than Spiderman, yes. Faster? I don't think so.

The Carnage Cosmic was faster than Spidey. That's about it.

Uh, Venom didn't have hard time tagging a Spider-man with a working spider-sense. And Venom & Carnage are considered to be near equals in the speed departement.

Originally posted by Jyppe
Uh, Venom didn't have hard time tagging a Spider-man with a working spider-sense. And Venom & Carnage are considered to be near equals in the speed departement.


The Spider sense works aginst Venom?
Where was I?

Originally posted by python99
The Spider sense works aginst Venom?
Where was I?

Originally posted by python99
Yeah Spidey beat carnage with mere punches but Sabretooth and Spidey have 2 different fighting styles. Sabretooths style is an aggressive type, which can leave you vulnerable to impact. Spidey on the other hand tends to go in and let you make mistakes that will get you left open to take some shots. Both styles have there strengths and weaknesses. I think Spidey style is a more frustrating style to deal with because he just moves around too damn much. This battle is just between 2 aggressive beasts.

Lets put it like this, when spiderman was fighting carnage back then spiderman was at 10 ton strength, now sabertooth is at 15 to 20 ton. Do the math. By the way I could have sworn that sabertooth dont just stand there and take punishment, he does do a little dodging himself and weapon x has made him faster and more agile. Sabertooth has the capabilities of digging his hand deep inside carnage, he has the capability of doing that. Like I said carnage will win this but not easily. Sabertooth has never went down easily, not against anyone and I could have sworn that he accomplished something that carnage didnt, he had spiderman in his grasp and could have killed him but didnt. Thats a dream of carnage that would never be fullfilled. carnage 7/10. naah 6/10. By the way with the spiderman feat, you stating that he jump in and out of battle, do he have a choice, he can be killed. He cant afford to be hit thats why he jump out of battle. It take a lot to bring sabertooth down, a whole bunch and thats where carnage will have a problem. He's fighting a guy that is just as ruthless can take a huge amount of pain and actually thrive off of pain and he fighting someone that not only fights a 1000 times better than him but also have enhanced senses, superhuman senses. Someone that you cant sneak, someone that has a adamantium skeleton structure, agile as heal, speed, super strength. Just the works. Fought and killed people far superior than carnage (wendigo) (superman clones). Sabertooth isnt going down easy in this fight, not by a long shot.

Originally posted by carver9
sabertooth is at 15 to 20 ton.

Based on what?

carnage wins

based on this
http://www.marveldatabase.com/Sabretooth_%28Victor_Creed%29

They didnt say enhanced strength but super human strength.
http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/characters/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=902

and you can also go by the nearest bookstore and buy a UPDATED marvel encyclopedia and it will tell you of his strength level. I own one and it says that his strength level is unknown but it is in the 15 to 20 ton range.

Originally posted by python99
The Spider sense works aginst Venom?
Where was I?

Scarlett spider's spider sense DID indeed work against venom.
While venom arguably adapted to it by their nex fight, it DID work in their first brawl, but venom was just too fast for it to help.

Originally posted by carver9
based on this
http://www.marveldatabase.com/Sabretooth_%28Victor_Creed%29

They didnt say enhanced strength but super human strength.
http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/characters/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=902

and you can also go by the nearest bookstore and buy a UPDATED marvel encyclopedia and it will tell you of his strength level. I own one and it says that his strength level is unknown but it is in the 15 to 20 ton range.

We also have th fact that he (before upgrades) was packing enough power to punch rogue out in 3 hits, and slugfest with ms. marvel....

Not to mention the fact that creed ran through a barrier wall constructed to be capible of stopping a full grown bull elephant charge. Elephants ALONE weigh up to 7 tons and have a pulling capacity of 10 to 20 tons on several different documented occasions. The force they could exert from a charge in terms of pounds of pressure per square inch: to think that Sabretooth breaking through that DOESN'T imply him to be at LEAST a 10 tonner would be absurd.

Originally posted by carver9
Lets put it like this, when spiderman was fighting carnage back then spiderman was at 10 ton strength, now sabertooth is at 15 to 20 ton. Do the math. By the way I could have sworn that sabertooth dont just stand there and take punishment, he does do a little dodging himself and weapon x has made him faster and more agile. Sabertooth has the capabilities of digging his hand deep inside carnage, he has the capability of doing that. Like I said carnage will win this but not easily. Sabertooth has never went down easily, not against anyone and I could have sworn that he accomplished something that carnage didnt, he had spiderman in his grasp and could have killed him but didnt. Thats a dream of carnage that would never be fullfilled. carnage 7/10. naah 6/10. By the way with the spiderman feat, you stating that he jump in and out of battle, do he have a choice, he can be killed. He cant afford to be hit thats why he jump out of battle. It take a lot to bring sabertooth down, a whole bunch and thats where carnage will have a problem. He's fighting a guy that is just as ruthless can take a huge amount of pain and actually thrive off of pain and he fighting someone that not only fights a 1000 times better than him but also have enhanced senses, superhuman senses. Someone that you cant sneak, someone that has a adamantium skeleton structure, agile as heal, speed, super strength. Just the works. Fought and killed people far superior than carnage (wendigo) (superman clones). Sabertooth isnt going down easy in this fight, not by a long shot.


Carnage has had more than enough chances to kill Spidey. Spidey has got Longshot type of luck when he fights Carnage even with Venom's help. I don't know Carnage's battle history, but when you fight both Venom and Spidey of in a battle and Still smile about it you must be doing somthing right. Killing Wendigo is impressive on Sabretooths part but, the day Sabretooth fights off Spidey and Venom in the same batlle let me know. 7/10

Carnage only manadged todo that in his first appearance.. after that every time he fought venom in a straight 1on1, all the battle was, was venom spraying carnage's blood all over the walls.

Originally posted by jinzin
Carnage only manadged todo that in his first appearance.. after that every time he fought venom in a straight 1on1, all the battle was, was venom spraying carnage's blood all over the walls.

Read Carnage unleashed, read Max. Carnage, read Venom vs Carnage. Venom didn't whoop him on those occasions.. They were evenly matched or Carnage was handling it better.

The only 2 occasions I can remember of Venom humiliating Carnage are in "Venom: the trial" & when Venom absorbed his symbiote.

Originally posted by jinzin

Not to mention the fact that creed ran through a barrier wall constructed to be capible of stopping a full grown bull elephant charge. Elephants ALONE weigh up to 7 tons and have a pulling capacity of 10 to 20 tons on several different documented occasions. The force they could exert from a charge in terms of pounds of pressure per square inch: to think that Sabretooth breaking through that DOESN'T imply him to be at LEAST a 10 tonner would be absurd.

You do realize he isn't necessarily capable of benchpressing 10 tons or more. You do know you can exert more force by ramming in to or tackling something, right? Btw, got links on the elephant facts?

Got any other strenght feats? And, someone actually calculated the strenght required to twist the dumbell like Creed did in the morlock massacre arc. It was roughly around 3 tons. - & That was pre upgrade Sabes. So he's *at least* a 3 tonner.

Originally posted by Jyppe
You do realize he isn't necessarily capable of benchpressing 10 tons or more. You do know you can exert more force by ramming in to or tackling something, right? Btw, got links on the elephant facts?

Got any other strenght feats? And, someone actually calculated the strenght required to twist the dumbell like Creed did in the morlock massacre arc. It was roughly around 3 tons. - & That was pre upgrade Sabes. So he's *at least* a 3 tonner.

He couldn't get out from under, what looks like, a non-armoured Humvee ... which would way a little over 2 tons ... roughly.

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/9059/60549641mb0.th.jpg http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/5993/45679760lj2.th.jpg http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/6522/56106657co2.th.jpg http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/3954/10938744oa3.th.jpg

To be fair, he didn't really have leverage as the humvee was on top of his legs, but still. 20 tonner? Pfft.

When it comes to strength who am I to listen to, marvel or fans, I choose marvel. In his bio it states that sabertooth strength is 15 tons. It says that sabertooth has gotten upgrades in strength and speed, no telling what else. Sabertooth is in the 15 ton range, deal with it, what is so hard to except it. You all throw spiderman in the 20 ton range but didnt show me anything that states that. Going by marvel it states that he is in the 10 ton range, going by fans you all state that he is in the 20 ton range because he lifted up a train, from the end side, not directly in the middle. Sabertooth knocked rogue out who is consider nigh invulnerable and strength range is in the 50 ton. He fought fist to fist with ms marvel. 3 tons, I dont know where you get that from. He might was that a long while ago but not anymore. Now show me something where spiderman strength is in the 20 ton. Not a scan but something that says that his strength is 20 tons.

Originally posted by jinzin
Not to mention the fact that creed ran through a barrier wall constructed to be capible of stopping a full grown bull elephant charge. Elephants ALONE weigh up to 7 tons and have a pulling capacity of 10 to 20 tons on several different documented occasions. The force they could exert from a charge in terms of pounds of pressure per square inch: to think that Sabretooth breaking through that DOESN'T imply him to be at LEAST a 10 tonner would be absurd. So... how strong is Black Panther then? He did about the exact same thing...

Peak human my ass...

Originally posted by carver9
Now show me something where spiderman strength is in the 20 ton. Not a scan but something that says that his strength is 20 tons.



Online bios can be written by anyone and bios are based on one persons interpretation of what has happened in that characters comics .... you're basically asking people to ignore "evidence" and judge characters based on a third party's opinion.

Seems pretty backwards to me.

Originally posted by Scoobless


Online bios can be written by anyone and bios are based on one persons interpretation of what has happened in that characters comics .... you're basically asking people to ignore "evidence" and judge characters based on a third party's opinion.

Seems pretty backwards to me.



Well maybe i need to disregard the fact that it was written by marvel that sabertooth strength is in the 15 ton range but in this fight his strength dont matter, he would have to rely purely on his claws and we havent seen how carnage handles adamantium claws anyway. The fights that I have seen of wolverine and venom (except there 1st fight and wolverine claws was having a major impact on venom in that comic), wolverine had his bone claws, except there last fight and wolverine didnt even use them in that fight. So this would be a good fight but I still think that carnage takes the majority here, 6/10. Sabertooth is just to furious and cunning and I do think that he will find a way and if spiderman can beat carnage physically, I dont see sabertooth having a problem doing the same.

Originally posted by jinzin
"almost as fast as spiderman"





carnage is FASTER than Spiderman.

meh, I'd say carnage MIGHT take the majority here.. on the other hand... Sabretooth MIGHT eat him like he did those river of flesh dogs in the latest x-men book.

Prove that Carnage is faster. Last time I checked, the MAXIMUM was that they were parallel.

"Originally, he was stronger then both Spider-Man and Venom combined. Carnage also possesses levels of superhuman agility and reaction time comparable to those of Spider-Man."

Carnage is stronger, and POSSIBLY the same speed as Spiderman.

Originally posted by carver9
Now show me something where spiderman strength is in the 20 ton. Not a scan but something that says that his strength is 20 tons.

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Spider-Man_%28Peter_Parker%29

It says before his upgrade he was able to lift 15 tons under optimal conditions. His current level since his upgrade has yet to be determined. Sounds like someone's going by bullshit instead of marvel for spidey's stats.

Originally posted by AngryManatee
http://www.marvel.com/universe/Spider-Man_%28Peter_Parker%29

It says before his upgrade he was able to lift 15 tons under optimal conditions. His current level since his upgrade has yet to be determined. Sounds like someone's going by bullshit instead of marvel for spidey's stats.

This is enough proof for me. Spidey would be about 20+ ton mark.
I dont think much superheroes get downgraded after a rebirth.
Good find

Originally posted by Seraphim XIII
Prove that Carnage is faster. Last time I checked, the MAXIMUM was that they were parallel.

"Originally, he was stronger then both Spider-Man and Venom combined. Carnage also possesses levels of superhuman agility and reaction time comparable to those of Spider-Man."

Carnage is stronger, and POSSIBLY the same speed as Spiderman.

I never said that Carnage was faster, in fact, if Carnage was faster to any significant degree, then Spider-Man would be dead.

I'd say they are around the same speed ... with maybe a slight advantage to Spider-Man.

Carnage wins easily.

And he is faster and stronger than Spider-Man.

Originally posted by Seraphim XIII
Prove that Carnage is faster. Last time I checked, the MAXIMUM was that they were parallel.

"Originally, he was stronger then both Spider-Man and Venom combined. Carnage also possesses levels of superhuman agility and reaction time comparable to those of Spider-Man."

Carnage is stronger, and POSSIBLY the same speed as Spiderman.

Well have you "checked" amazing spider-man 362?


cause carnage proves it right there for me.. He completely curbs spidey and tosses him aside like trash... kinda proves it for me really.

Originally posted by Jyppe
Read Carnage unleashed, read Max. Carnage, read Venom vs Carnage. Venom didn't whoop him on those occasions.. They were evenly matched or Carnage was handling it better.

The only 2 occasions I can remember of Venom humiliating Carnage are in "Venom: the trial" & when Venom absorbed his symbiote.

Yeah you're right I was a bit overzealous in saying every time... But Venom's beaten him back on every occasion/event none the less...

Carnage unleashed is more attributed to plot devices than a straight fight between the two.

Maximum carnage: carnage and venom were stalemating throughout the whole series.

the only time carnage "beat" venom there, was after venom put himself through an enferno and walked through shreiks sonic blast. When they both fought on a weakened but level playing field venom was crushing carnage to the point spidey begged him to stop.

And venom vs. carnage.. venom DID whoop carnage there. ..granted it was after carnage got the upper hand in the first half of their fight...

Carnage defenitley does not "handle" venom...

Originally posted by Jyppe
You do realize he isn't necessarily capable of benchpressing 10 tons or more. You do know you can exert more force by ramming in to or tackling something, right? Btw, got links on the elephant facts?

Got any other strenght feats? And, someone actually calculated the strenght required to twist the dumbell like Creed did in the morlock massacre arc. It was roughly around 3 tons. - & That was pre upgrade Sabes. So he's *at least* a 3 tonner.

Yes I do know that doesn't NECESSARILY dictate that he can press 10 tons.. but I still think it's a pretty good indictation of his relative strength level.
The barrier field expanded with Sabretooth's attempt to penetrate it, so that robbed sabretooth of any momentum or boost from his initial impact... the rest of the way he had to use pure strength and pushing power to muscle through it...

So unless one's about to argue that Sabretooth's power in his legs and arms is disproportionate when his pushing through something to when he's pressing something, I still think it stands as a RELATIVE but effective example of Sabretooth's strength range.

Yeah there's a few other strength feats.. most of them I posted in the sabes/spidey thread.

But not much of it leaves room at conclusive evidence...
and no I don't have links to the elephant stats.. i read them in a magazine.. but I'll look around and see if I can find some for you.

Originally posted by Scoobless
He couldn't get out from under, what looks like, a non-armoured Humvee ... which would way a little over 2 tons ... roughly.

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/9059/60549641mb0.th.jpg http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/5993/45679760lj2.th.jpg http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/6522/56106657co2.th.jpg http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/3954/10938744oa3.th.jpg
Oh for ****s sake....

EVERY SINGLE TIME sabretooth's strength range is called into question this example is brought up... and EVERY TIME I tell you guys the same damned thing to retort....


but since you either don't read my posts, or don't remember them I'm just going to say "RUCCA" if you don't know why that doesn't stand as a solid standard of evidence compared to everything it contrasts then I can't help you.

Originally posted by Jyppe
To be fair, he didn't really have leverage as the humvee was on top of his legs, but still. 20 tonner? Pfft.
rucca, nuff said.

well this is the best I could find on the elephant thing...

There dragging strength is under general information.
the lifting strength is confirmed to pretain to their trunk alone.

http://senecaparkzoo.org/resources/pdf/african_elephant.pdf

And that information is on a bush elephant which are smaller and slightly weaker than their full grown african bull elephant counterparts (some stats for the african elephant are at the bottem)

Here's another.. it's under the strongest land animal category.

http://www.g-kexoticfarms.com/funanimalfacts.html

Just to interject.

Originally posted by jinzin
Maximum carnage: carnage and venom were stalemating throughout the whole series.

the only time carnage "beat" venom there, was after venom put himself through an enferno and walked through shreiks sonic blast. When they both fought on a weakened but level playing field venom was crushing carnage to the point spidey begged him to stop.

In that instance in Maximum Carnage Venom was handling Carnage cause Carnage was still under the influence of Spider-Man's "feel good ray" (god that sounds so wrong). Kletus wasn't in his right mind so I wouldn't exactly call that a level playin field

Originally posted by marvelprince
Just to interject.



In that instance in Maximum Carnage Venom was handling Carnage cause Carnage was still under the influence of Spider-Man's "feel good ray" (god that sounds so wrong). Kletus wasn't in his right mind so I wouldn't exactly call that a level playin field
yet, venom was still recovering from his rather extensive and severe torture.. so I would.

Usually with help or by plot devices.



How so? Venom himself admits that Carnage is better than he is IIRC.



True, but Venom wasn't owning Carnage all the time like your first post implied. And, Carnage seemed to be pretty F-ed up by the rays shot at him by Deathlok.



They both whooped each other once, but Venom wasn't the one that was going to give birth to a baby, now was he?



Venom does definately not "handle" Carnage either. I'm pretty much assuming they're quite equal.



It's still not THAT impressive. A better indicator would be a car or so, as we all know how much cars usually weight. If you say he's "around" ten tons he should be picking up cars rather easily. The fact that he doesn't complitely over power Wolverine during their fights, tells us something.



I thought it was just the field giving in, and him pushing fowards. His first tackle would be the critical one.



Your legs are usually lot stronger than your arms are, that's pretty much a fact, but i'm sure you already knew this. Do you have the issue btw? can you post scans? I don't have access to my comix at the moment.



Sorry, I didn't follow that thread. Bother digging them up for this thread?



Btw, don't you think Wolverine could have been.. Maybe exaggerating a bit?



That's only 9 tons..

Personally I can accept that Sabes is over 5 tonner, but 15 tonner? No f*cking way! Unless some hardcore evidence is brought on the table.



Sorry, but this is the first time I've seen this scan used in a debate. I didn't follow the Spider-man vs Sabes thread either. So.. can I hear your reasoning once more? IDon'tLikeItSoItDoesn'tCount?

Greg Rucca sucks...

Originally posted by Rick/Genis
Greg Rucca sucks...
so true so true

Originally posted by Jyppe
Usually with help or by plot devices.

Usually?

Okay he didn't have either at the end of max,
or during their second encounter in v vs c,
or during the peter parker incident
OR during trial...

yep.. so there goes your excuse.. uhh theory.

Originally posted by Jyppe
How so? Venom himself admits that Carnage is better than he is IIRC.
Well it probably had something to do with the fact that venom got hit by a train...

And yeah, Carnage IS physically superior to venom (was) in a lot of ways.. but Venom's also said: "yeah but we're smarter, craftier, and a WHOLE lot deadlier"


Originally posted by Jyppe
True, but Venom wasn't owning Carnage all the time like your first post implied. And, Carnage seemed to be pretty F-ed up by the rays shot at him by Deathlok.
As I admitted I was over zealous in my primary post.. I just got caught up in the emotion when I was typing my reply...

And yes carnage wasn't a peak capacity.. but neither was venom.. far from it, remember two minutes before Carnage and Venom started trading blows Venom could hardly stand.. he was still hurting badly from being tortured.

Originally posted by Jyppe
They both whooped each other once, but Venom wasn't the one that was going to give birth to a baby, now was he?
What does that have to do with anything?

giving birth to a symbiote spawn as never been stated to weaken an other... Venom gave birth to 5 and he was still kicking spiderman's ass.. Same when he gave birth to carnage.. so really what was your point there?

Originally posted by Jyppe
Venom does definately not "handle" Carnage either. I'm pretty much assuming they're quite equal.
venom's won or had an advantage in straight fights more times than the opposite.


Originally posted by Jyppe
It's still not THAT impressive. A better indicator would be a car or so, as we all know how much cars usually weight. If you say he's "around" ten tons he should be picking up cars rather easily. The fact that he doesn't complitely over power Wolverine during their fights, tells us something.
How is having more overall stopping power than a full grown bull elephant NOT that impressive?

That's being WAY stronger than what's needed to pick up a car...

A car doesn't have a weight of 7 to 8 tons, A car doesn't weigh as much as a ten ton load..

I'm not sure if this will mean anything to you, but in Sabretooth 2 a speeding ar was coming at sabretooth, he smacked it with a noncholant backhand, obliterating the door and sending it veering onto two wheels...

and the fact that Sabretooth doesn't overpower logan in fights with brute strength only tells us that Sabretooth isn't a character who uses only strength when he fights... It's a staple of the character.. he likes to claw, hack and slash, he rarely uses his power in fights, doesn't mean he doesn't have high ranking strength...

In the same fasion I suppose when Spiderman doesn't overpower captain america in fights that's suppose to tell us that Spidey must not be a 15+ lifter either? Seriously, what kinda crapped up logic is that?

Originally posted by Jyppe
I thought it was just the field giving in, and him pushing fowards. His first tackle would be the critical one.

you assume.. and yet his first tackle did NOTHING.. it was the pushing that did everything....

We could debate what actually took place there all day.. fact is STILL: sabes has more stopping power in his arms and legs than a full grown elephant. Kinda implies he's a strong one.



Originally posted by Jyppe
Your legs are usually lot stronger than your arms are, that's pretty much a fact, but i'm sure you already knew this. Do you have the issue btw? can you post scans? I don't have access to my comix at the moment.
No I don't have the issue here, No I can't post scans.. and even if I could what would it matter...

The field was made by forge.. his mutant power is to make machines that do EXACLTY what he intends them to do...

Sabretooth proved his stopping power> elephant's....

So again unless you think Sabretooth's strength is DISPRAPORTIONATE from his legs to his arms, He's WELL into the 10 ton+ range.

Originally posted by Jyppe
Btw, don't you think Wolverine could have been.. Maybe exaggerating a bit?
No.

Please don't tell me you're not about to do what you did in the death argument and dismiss the evidence that makes this an argument in the first place.


Originally posted by Jyppe
That's only 9 tons..
Personally I can accept that Sabes is over 5 tonner, but 15 tonner? No f*cking way! Unless some hardcore evidence is brought on the table.

an excess of 20,000 pounds of dead wieght is close to 10 tons..

And well, you can continue to think that, Just as we'll continue to think otherwise..

Considering that there's more numerable evidence, more persuasive implications, and generalized assessments and statistics that support our argument I'm perfectly confortable with continuing to think otherwise anyway.



Originally posted by Jyppe
Sorry, but this is the first time I've seen this scan used in a debate. I didn't follow the Spider-man vs Sabes thread either. So.. can I hear your reasoning once more? IDon'tLikeItSoItDoesn'tCount?

And it's the only real, serious scans that calls Sabretooth's strength into question, save a fight incident or two....

My argument isn't an "IDon'tLikeItSoItDoesn'tCount" copout, I'm not going to so easily dismiss what I don't like as you have done in the past...
All I'm saying, as I've said before, is that that is a horrible standard of evidence to use...
STANDARD being the key word..

Okay creed couldn't get a jeep off of him one time, an anti-strength feat that contradicts mulitudes of others... that's fine, but that means next to nothing.. 1 time out of 10 Sabes may not get that car off of him.. but the other 9 he'll be tossing the mofo... It all comes down to majority.. Sabretooth has by and large more evidence to conclude that he's emmensly powerful than the other way around. Anyways here's my retort to that scan, taken from the sabes/spidey thread.

Originally posted by jinzin
sure...
RUCKA

nuff said...

the guy (while his stories may have beeen interesting) had a notoriously ridiculous amount of contradictions in his own story archs and worse, had next to no character research when he wrote that story.

For instance, Wolverine's shown shot and plastered by multiple gunmen but a couple of stun guns takes him down.

Sabretooth admits that wolverine's superior to himself in fighting and tracking...
later sabretooth tracks the native when logan can't.. and then soundly whomps him in a fight. Which makes one question why he (sabes) even bothered bringing logan into the story.

Oh yeah here's why:
Sabretooth can't even see the native's movements the first time they fight eachother and she badly beats the crap out of him....
except that:
At the end of the arch he viciously kills her AFTER curbing wolverine into the ground.

And then we've got the fact that wolverine nonchalantly puts his admantium claws through Sabretooth's ADAMNTIUM skull...


wtf?

Oh that's right, rucka didn't even know sabretooth HAD admantium at the time he wrote this story...

even though it was stated in new x-men, x-men unlimited, Sabretooth; mary shelly overdrive, the weapon x series, and finally previously stated displayed and EMPHASISED in wolverine's own damned series for several entire story archs.


I mean seriously.. Sabretooth's inability to toss that car off himself doesn't even stand out as one of the bad parts of his inconsistancies in his wolverine run.
On the other hand in Sabretooth: death hunt 2, Creed effortlessly and single handedly backhands a car that's speeding towards him, the force of the hit sends the car veering off to the side on two wheels.... but he can't lift a jeep?
In uncanny X-men 213, Creed effortlessly crushes a barbell into a metal deathball, he effortlessly uses himself like an inhuman battering ram smashing his way through the mansion and he uppercuts logan 3 friggin stories into the air, but he can't budge a jeep?
In Sabretooth/Mystique part 4 sabes uses one hand to pick up and hold up a fairly large and thick security bay door, but he can't move a jeep?
In Sabretooth: Death Hunt 1, he uses one nonchalant back hand to send a dozen ninjas airborn by 15 to 20 feet but he can't budge a jeep?
In mary shelly overdrive 1 creed tears up a huge generator out of the rooftop of an apartment building (easily the size of a jeep if not bigger) and uses it to bat away two supersoldiers....but he can't lift a jeep?
Meh, i think you understand where I'm getting at....

you want your answer... look no further than the man who wrote it.

Personally I don't know why people don't instantly recognize that particular bit as nothing more than PIS.. because that's exactly what it is, Sabretooth not being able to pick himself up or escape from that is the very definition of PIS, not only was it strictly against the characters representation in both his strength and his skeletal durability... but keeping him pinned down under the car DID help to advance the plot.

It's also hard to believe that Creed could be viewed as anything BUT a character with emmense superstrength as that EXACTLY how he's represented in ever other type of marvel media as well...

In the movie he was using a tree like a baseball bat and knocked out logan (something juggernaught failed to do).
In evolution he's seen smashing wolverine with a car no less, and using gigantic metalic structures to throw at people.
In the old cartoon Sabretooth picks up a police car and literally throws it over an apartment building.


BTW: here's some stats on apartment generators.. http://www.nimsonline.com/resource_typing/Generators.htm

Granted the generator creed picked up didn't have the tractor shell so it probably didn't weigh as much as the XQ600-apartment standard gen, but even the generator's dry weight is in an excess of 15 tons. I realize there's no conclusive proof to equate the xQ600 to what sabes picked up, but I just wanted to show that it was an impressive strength feat nonetheless.

Jinzin, in his defense, punching power/striking, doesn't always equal raw strength.

Anyway... this is not saying the jeep incident is good, but I'm just saying, just because he can punch Wolverine a fare bit, doesn't mean he is going to start benching 20 tons or anything.
Also, with that said, couldn't he just punch the car off him then?

Originally posted by bigbran
Jinzin, in his defense, punching power/striking, doesn't always equal raw strength.

yes I know, and I understand that, but again.. unless one wants to make the argument which they very well could that his stopping power is extremely disproportionate with his lifting strength.. then I don't see how he could do some of the things he's done without being in a higher class of strength...

KOing rogue in 3 punches is something NO ONE under 10 tons aughta be doin no matter how skilled they are at fighting.

Originally posted by bigbran
Anyway... this is not saying the jeep incident is good, but I'm just saying, just because he can punch Wolverine a fare bit, doesn't mean he is going to start benching 20 tons or anything.
Also, with that said, couldn't he just punch the car off him then?

exactly.. couldn't he?

that's the question that makes that feat a PIS moment.

Sabertooth is in the 15 ton strength range, he has shown it to many times, even in his early years. His strength shouldnt even be a debate due to the fact that the guy has been tampered with by weaponx so many times enhancing everything about him everytime.

Uh, wrong.

End of max. - Carnage's mind was F-ed up by the ray gun, he wasn't even trying to fight Venom really.

Venom vs carnage - You just happened to "forget" that he was pregnant at the time?

Peter parker incident? Issue number, short reviw on the plot? This happened when Venom ate his symbiote? Well, Carnage didn't even try to fight back, so it was hardly a fight.

During trial - They were both shot with the symbiote blockers, but AFAICR only Venom attacked Carnage. They both were propably quite weakened, and hence he went down so easily, did Carnage even attack venom in the issue?

Well it probably had something to do with the fact that venom got hit by a train...



That's true, but combatants on KMC fight for best of their ability. Agreed that Venom is more clever and smarter. Carnage is the (more?) insane killer of the two.



Just had to clarify it, so you wouldn't read me wrong. Moving along.



The difference is that Venom's damage was physical, and Venom heals over time. Carnage's mind was f-ed up. That doesn't really heal instantly. Besides, Venom WANTED to fight, Carnage was just fleeing and digging up his past. Seriously, how f-ed up has man to be to dig up his mother's grave? Even for Cletus.



Uh, Carnage himself stated that he was weakened after the birth, other wise he would have finnished off Toxin right away. Besides, how well does Spider-man usually fare against Venom?



Could be that Venom is the heroic one of the 2.



The problem is, that the force field wasn't tested against anything else than Sabretooth's strenght. And he was still pushing against it, that doesn't really measure lifting strenght (Assuming that's how strenght is usually measure in Marvel)



That's pretty interesting. Why wouldn't it mean anything to me? Why didn't you post this earlier? What's the exact issue number so I can look it up myself and then I could maybe post the scans to this thread.

Btw, the Sabretooth respect thread should be tweaked a tad.



It's just silly though. I've seen him block some Wolverine's blows efforthlessly, but nothing else really. Even at the times they were grappling on the ground, neither one of them really had upper hand.

Besides, Sabretooth does use moves requireing strenght while fighting. For example slamming Wolverine's back on to his knee. Punching Wolverine with his own fists. etc



What kind of moronic example is that? I bet you didn't know that Spider-man holds back against nearly all of his opponents! Especially against a friend. Yes, I'm sure Sabretooth holds back most of his strenght, because he doesn't want to hurt his good friend Wolverine. If anything happened, he wouldn't be able to get over it.



Did Forge actually state that the field could take a raging elephant? Wait, are we debating about overall strenght or just benchpressing?

Hell, your Wolverine jumps 50ft in the air, but only benches 2 tons(?) Must be quite Dispraportionate.



How so? Can you write down what his words were exactly?

I'm not dismissing anything. I'm just thinking how serious Wolverine was at the time. How literally he said it /meant it

And how nice of you to bring up old debates. And if you bothered to read my posts, I gave up on the matter (At the time I got the english version of the comic where Deathverine smashes through the door) But nooo. You just kept going. And Deathverine did demonstrate somekind of flashing energy when he punched Colossus' brother Mikhail.

Besides, it's not like I created the theory. It was floating some time around the netz when the issue came out. Just to be sure I asked what the Marvel guys had to say about the matter. Still no reply though.
I'll keep you updated.



It said excess? Any idea how much?

Instead of "whining" you could have posted issue numbers/feats. Exactly what I asked for. I'm more than willing to chance my opinion if some hardcore evidence is brought on the table. Maybe it's my ignorance, but that's why you're supposed to prove me wrong. Right?



'Kay. but all scans should be taken into consideration. I'm not trying to downplay his higher showings, but this also sets a quide line. Pretty much the same with Venom's strenght, apparently they fluctuate a lot.



I don't really dismiss any evidence, I'll try to find other plausible solutions or theories. You should try it some time. Though that might've only worked because I don't have a hard on for any character.

To be honest, that shouldn't be used as standard of evidence. That would be just plain dumb. Sabes has other feats to back up. It'd be complitely moronic to assume that Sabretooth's strenght level would be THAT low. Hell, I think even Wolverine could have wiggled his way from under the car.



That feat is a bit iffy with me, as next time he fought with Rogue, it didn't go so well for him.

And again it seems that you're taking this bit too seriously or getting pretty much worked up about by it. Maybe i'm reading you wrong, but your responses don't sound that nice to me (though in all fairness, neither do mine) but still.

I'm going to check for some scans If I can get some good strenght feats for Sabes. I'm not narrowminded, and I'm able to chance my view/opinion, if there's some good evidence. K?

Oh, & Carver. How's Sabretooth getting 4/10 victories over Carnage?

Originally posted by Jyppe
Oh, & Carver. How's Sabretooth getting 4/10 victories over Carnage?
Because spiderman punched carnage to sleep on to many occasions (when spidey was in the 10 ton range) and sabes is just as strong and is a MUCH better fighter than spiderman and is blessed with a healing factor that can take any punishment and he thrives off of pain to last in the fight until he uses his claws to either rip carnage head off or punch his hands through his head.

Originally posted by carver9
Because spiderman punched carnage to sleep on to many occasions (when spidey was in the 10 ton range) and sabes is just as strong and is a MUCH better fighter than spiderman and is blessed with a healing factor that can take any punishment and he thrives off of pain to last in the fight until he uses his claws to either rip carnage head off or punch his hands through his head.

On many occasions? Mind posting issue numbers then? Carnage's healing factor should take care of any major damage (Assuming it's good, or better as his father's) Slicing damage really didn't affect Venom (Kraven's spear etc)

Sabretooth isn't punching his hand through someone's head who can take Venom's attacks rather easily. IMO This is pretty much Upgraded Venom taking upgraded Wolverine.

Btw, here are the scans I promised.

Sabes uses a generator as a weapon

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/Jyppe/Sabesgenerator.jpg

Sabretooth rips the head of one of those soldier's off. He was barely able to scratch their skin, so their skin is rather durable.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/Jyppe/headoff.jpg

Originally posted by Jyppe
Did Forge actually state that the field could take a raging elephant? Wait, are we debating about overall strenght or just benchpressing?

Hell, your Wolverine jumps 50ft in the air, but only benches 2 tons(?) Must be quite Dispraportionate.

as far as was stated: yes
I'm using the feat to guage an strength range.. but I explained about that above..
and the third point isn't a good example.. I can get my feet 4 to 5 feet off the ground with a decent jump... wolverine's 7 times stronger than me AT LEAST. it only stands to reason he'd be able to do something like that...

Though 50 feet might be pushin it.



Originally posted by Jyppe
How so? Can you write down what his words were exactly?

I'm not dismissing anything. I'm just thinking how serious Wolverine was at the time. How literally he said it /meant it.

"i seem to remember forge telling me this here force field could stop a full grown elephant" or something along those lines. Again are you doing to demonstrate an anti-benefit of the doubt?

Originally posted by Jyppe
And how nice of you to bring up old debates. And if you bothered to read my posts, I gave up on the matter (At the time I got the english version of the comic where Deathverine smashes through the door) But nooo. You just kept going. And Deathverine did demonstrate somekind of flashing energy when he punched Colossus' brother Mikhail.
you conceded to one point, not the entire argument..

Originally posted by Jyppe
It said excess? Any idea how much?
Absolutely not. the link I provided just states: more than
the article I read stated "an excess of"

Originally posted by Jyppe
Instead of "whining" you could have posted issue numbers/feats. Exactly what I asked for. I'm more than willing to chance my opinion if some hardcore evidence is brought on the table. Maybe it's my ignorance, but that's why you're supposed to prove me wrong. Right?

Oh please, no one's whining here.. Now I'm just going to say this once:
You've implied that I'm "whining" you've implied that I'm moronic...

please be civil.


Originally posted by Jyppe
'Kay. but all scans should be taken into consideration. I'm not trying to downplay his higher showings, but this also sets a quide line. Pretty much the same with Venom's strenght, apparently they fluctuate a lot.
I agree.. my problem is just that.. when you've got a bio that states his strength, stats which support the bio, and feats that support the stats it's hard not to give sabretooth that estimation in strength..
especially when on the other hand the only hardcore feat that counters it comes from an arc as notorious and contradictory as ruccas for some of the reasons previously stated ALONE.



Originally posted by Jyppe
I don't really dismiss any evidence, I'll try to find other plausible solutions or theories. You should try it some time. Though that might've only worked because I don't have a hard on for any character. And yet you've done it.
Discarding the very examples that made the debate debateable in the first place.

And please, don't cop out on me here either.. I may appreciate the character but don't for an instant pretend that my appreciation for him inhibits my ability to reason.. Nothing I've said as of late as been non-factual, or at the very least up for debate.

Originally posted by Jyppe
To be honest, that shouldn't be used as standard of evidence. That would be just plain dumb. Sabes has other feats to back up. It'd be complitely moronic to assume that Sabretooth's strenght level would be THAT low. Hell, I think even Wolverine could have wiggled his way from under the car.

the very definition of PIS.. nuff said really.


Originally posted by Jyppe
That feat is a bit iffy with me, as next time he fought with Rogue, it didn't go so well for him.
Which time? the time she flew up from behind him and punched him 3 football fields out a skyscraper? or the time she flew up behind him again and buried him in a wall, relentlessly clobbering him?

The next time he had a straight encounter with anything comparible was when he fought ms. marvel and he was outslugging her by her own admission.

Originally posted by Jyppe
And again it seems that you're taking this bit too seriously or getting pretty much worked up about by it. Maybe i'm reading you wrong, but your responses don't sound that nice to me (though in all fairness, neither do mine) but still.
and yet you're the one trowing insults about.

Originally posted by Jyppe
I'm going to check for some scans If I can get some good strenght feats for Sabes. I'm not narrowminded, and I'm able to chance my view/opinion, if there's some good evidence. K? k

Originally posted by Jyppe
End of max. - Carnage's mind was F-ed up by the ray gun, he wasn't even trying to fight Venom really. Are you ****ing serious?
Carnage was the one who STARTED THE DAMNED FIGHT... lets not pretend like Carnage didn't know what he was getting himself into as soon as he lept toward Spidey and venom.
Carnage may have had a messed up mind but using that it is nothing more than a losers excuse considering that venom was equally f'd.

Originally posted by Jyppe
Venom vs carnage - You just happened to "forget" that he was pregnant at the time?

Peter parker incident? Issue number, short reviw on the plot? This happened when Venom ate his symbiote? Well, Carnage didn't even try to fight back, so it was hardly a fight.
No I don't remember that being an attributed reason to why he lost...
And it was hardly a fight because the symbiote was reacting to venom's commands not cassidy's.. kletus got pwned end of story.

Originally posted by Jyppe
During trial - They were both shot with the symbiote blockers, but AFAICR only Venom attacked Carnage. They both were propably quite weakened, and hence he went down so easily, did Carnage even attack venom in the issue?.
Once again on alevel playing ground, and once again venom put an end to the nonsense carnage was starting. Carnage didn't fight back because he couldn't.. Venom was pounding on him too fast and too hard to retaliate.


Originally posted by Jyppe
That's true, but combatants on KMC fight for best of their ability. Agreed that Venom is more clever and smarter. Carnage is the (more?) insane killer of the two.
And CIS is still in effect so carnage is still semi-retarded.. he deosn't even understand was "reign" means..

Originally posted by Jyppe
The difference is that Venom's damage was physical, and Venom heals over time. Carnage's mind was f-ed up. That doesn't really heal instantly. Besides, Venom WANTED to fight, Carnage was just fleeing and digging up his past. Seriously, how f-ed up has man to be to dig up his mother's grave? Even for Cletus.
Sure his damage was mental, but he wasn't exactly an atomaton, he knew exactly what he was doing and even attributed that his condition wasn't going to affect the outcome of his battle with venom.
Venom may eventually heal from his torture but lets not pretend like venom healed the instant he saw carnage.. cause that's folley.. they were both F'ed up, and venom absolutely curbed carnage...
Venom WANTED to fight.. carnage STARTED the fight.

Originally posted by Jyppe
Uh, Carnage himself stated that he was weakened after the birth, other wise he would have finnished off Toxin right away. Besides, how well does Spider-man usually fare against Venom?
Again, I don't remember that as an attributed reason for his loss.

Originally posted by Jyppe
Could be that Venom is the heroic one of the 2.
Cop out more likely due to carnage's stupidity.

Originally posted by Jyppe
The problem is, that the force field wasn't tested against anything else than Sabretooth's strenght. And he was still pushing against it, that doesn't really measure lifting strenght (Assuming that's how strenght is usually measure in Marvel)
Again, i realize it doesn't equate to his benchpressing abilitiy.. but it DOES show that he's definitely in the league one would need to be at in order to press 10-15 tons..
An elephant ALONE weighs 7 tons, and can drag 10 more.. I can only image how many tons of pressure they can apply with a full charge.. point in fact.. sabretooth's stronger than that.. Basically if Sabretooth and an elephant charged one another Sabretooth should come out the victor (no pun intended), it seems to imply he WELL within the 10-15 ton strength range.

And please cop-out there: next time someone shows me spiderman lifting up tons of debris or a rail car, I'm simply going to reply.. it doesn't count it was never tested against anything else..
Why are we so willing to give Sabretooth an anti-benefit of the doubt here?



Originally posted by Jyppe
That's pretty interesting. Why wouldn't it mean anything to me? Why didn't you post this earlier? What's the exact issue number so I can look it up myself and then I could maybe post the scans to this thread.

Btw, the Sabretooth respect thread should be tweaked a tad.
Well it doesn't seem as much of a feat that would dictate 10+ ton strength, though I'm unaware of how strong one needs to be to backhand a car off it's wheels... the elephant feat simply stands out as more impressive to me.



Originally posted by Jyppe
It's just silly though. I've seen him block some Wolverine's blows efforthlessly, but nothing else really. Even at the times they were grappling on the ground, neither one of them really had upper hand..
see I just don't understand how that logic works... Wolverine's grappled with characters like rogue, and roughouse.. batman's grappled with wonderwoman
I would attribute these events more to the skill of one character more than the lack of strength in another.

Originally posted by Jyppe
What kind of moronic example is that? I bet you didn't know that Spider-man holds back against nearly all of his opponents! Especially against a friend. Yes, I'm sure Sabretooth holds back most of his strenght, because he doesn't want to hurt his good friend Wolverine. If anything happened, he wouldn't be able to get over it. ..
you tell me, since you were the first to bring it's comparitive up...

okay how about the times spiderman isn't holding back like with white ninja or wolverine?
How about when Spiderman himself is overpowered by a guy like kingpin? does that dictate spiderman has a lack of his stated and stat-ed super strength?

oh by the way, I know what you mean about the sabretooth respect thread.. if all goes according to plan we should have a new revamped sabes thread up and running by the end of the week it's going to contain about 90% of his career and I'm still debating with myself whether or not I should make it a 101 thread and include his bad showings as well or just leave it at a respect thread and discard the bad showings for now....

I'm just trying to round off getting some final issues for sabretooth feats..

if anyone has any feats from x-factor 123-125 that would be most appreciated..

Originally posted by jinzin
"almost as fast as spiderman"





carnage is FASTER than Spiderman.

meh, I'd say carnage MIGHT take the majority here.. on the other hand... Sabretooth MIGHT eat him like he did those river of flesh dogs in the latest x-men book. I could have sworn you tried to argue him not being faster than Spiderman...

Carnage could beat both Wolverine and Sabertooth at the same time...that was settled here a while ago.

Just Sabes will be no problem.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Carnage could beat both Wolverine and Sabertooth at the same time...that was settled here a while ago.

Just Sabes will be no problem.


I dont think it will be a cake-walk

Namor handles Venom, Venom has owned Carnage on some occasions, Carnage should take Sabretooth, Sabreooth can give Namor a good fight and POSSIBLY force it into a tiebreaker. WOW!
I wonder how Carnage fairs against Namor.

Originally posted by carver9
based on this
http://www.marveldatabase.com/Sabretooth_%28Victor_Creed%29

They didnt say enhanced strength but super human strength.
http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/characters/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=902

and you can also go by the nearest bookstore and buy a UPDATED marvel encyclopedia and it will tell you of his strength level. I own one and it says that his strength level is unknown but it is in the 15 to 20 ton range.

Amazing.