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The characters are:

TEAM A:

- Darth Revan
- Darth Malak

Note: Both Revan and Malak are master practitioners of Force Lightning.

TEAM B:

- OBi-Wan (ROTS)
- Anakin (ROTS)

Setting: Tatooine (Dune Sea)

Light Saber forms of each Jedi are:

-> Revan's: Niman/Jar-Kai
-> Malak's: Juyo (Single handed)
-> Anakin's: Djem So
-> Obi-Wan's: Soresu

Who will be the winners?

..... Firstly niman sucks, and only masters can actually learn the juyo form, Juyo > niman and jar kai. And dorak stated revan was superior to malak in saber combat so how can malak be learning a superior form while being worse than revan whom is using the worst form which is niman?

Drews not applying common sense legend

Originally posted by Kadesh
..... Firstly niman sucks, and only masters can actually learn the juyo form, Juyo > niman and jar kai. And dorak stated revan was superior to malak in saber combat so how can malak be learning a superior form while being worse than revan whom is using the worst form which is niman?

Drews not applying common sense legend
Who told you that Niman sucks? It sucks for those who are not thinking clearly and rely on brute force.

Revan was smart, intelligent and adaptable. Niman works well for such people and it does not have strong weaknesses. And Revan switches to Jar Kai when using two sabers.

Drew said that he was a skilled swordsman. So he does not sucks as this is evident from the game itself.

Here is Drew's explanation: However, it is my unofficial opinion that Revan would generally have used "Form VI - Niman". This form works well for anyone who is intelligent and adaptable, as Revan obviously was. It has no real weaknesses, and even though it is not as aggressive as other forms it enables the user to unleash powerful Force abilities more easily during combat. Revan was skilled in lightsaber combat, but knew true strength came from using all the other Force abilities in conjunction with lightsaber combat. Form VI would allow Revan to spend less time focusing on lightsaber skills, and more time developing other Force powers.


Malak was a master swordsman. He recklessely charged in to dangerous fights and won. He was a brave and headstrong warrior. Drew said that he used Juyo.

And when did Dorak said that Malak was inferior to Revan in Saber Combat? It was pointed out even in KOTOR II that final fight between Revan and Malak was an epic one.

And that was when Malak was powered by the star forge....

Originally posted by kamikz
And that was when Malak was powered by the star forge....
He was using the Star Forge to put captured Jedi in stasis form to replenish his energies (if necessary) and thats it. No where it was said that Malak was being crushed in Saber Combat. Star Forge does not enhances the Saber skills of an individual.

Revan used his saber skills in conjunction with his Force Mastery to crush his opponents as evident from Drew's opinion. And Revan's Force Mastery > Malak's Force Mastery.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


Here is Drew's explanation: However, it is my unofficial opinion that Revan would generally have used "Form VI - Niman". This form works well for anyone who is intelligent and adaptable, as Revan obviously was. It has no real weaknesses, and even though it is not as aggressive as other forms it enables the user to unleash powerful Force abilities more easily during combat. Revan was skilled in lightsaber combat, but knew true strength came from using all the other Force abilities in conjunction with lightsaber combat. Form VI would allow Revan to spend less time focusing on lightsaber skills, and more time developing other Force powers.


That "explanation" is a total truck load of shit. Where does it state that niman allows the user to unleash more force attacks? Nothing like that was mentioned in star wars insider when they talked about the lightsaber form.


And dorak told revan that malak was the new dark lord even though revan is far more superior than malak was in saber skills and thus malak had to use a sith warship to do the job.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Revan used his saber skills in conjunction with his Force Mastery to crush his opponents as evident from Drew's opinion. And Revan's Force Mastery > Malak's Force Mastery. Thats his opinion and is not canon unless approved by LFL or lucasarts

Originally posted by Kadesh
That "explanation" is a total truck load of shit. Where does it state that niman allows the user to unleash more force attacks? Nothing like that was mentioned in star wars insider when they talked about the lightsaber form.
You know better then Drew then argue with him. His contact is available on his website. All he said is that Form VI makes it easy for a Jedi to unleash Force attacks during dueling.

Originally posted by Kadesh
And dorak told revan that malak was the new dark lord even though revan is far more superior than malak was in saber skills and thus malak had to use a sith warship to do the job.
When did he said this? I have played KOTOR so many times and yet I have never heard him saying this.

What was evident is that Malak betrayed Revan on a time which would be easier to defeat him. Revan was distracted by the Jedi when Malak betrayed him and took advantage of his situation. And Malak clearly said that he was soon going to be ready to challenge him for DLOTS title (even if had not betrayed him). It was only a matter of time.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Thats his opinion and is not canon unless approved by LFL or lucasarts
If Lucas Arts really cared then it would have given an official opinion by now but it didn't.

For the time being I consulted an expert (who was the master-mind behind KOTOR) and his views hold more credibility then ours. He knows what is going inside Star Wars.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You know better then Drew then argue with him. His contact is available on his website. All he said is that Niman form makes it easy of Jedi to unleash Force attacks.
Again thats his opinion and is NOT canon unless approved by LFL
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

When did he said this? I have played KOTOR so many times and yet I have never heard him saying this. When ever you go back to dantooine to talk to dorak before getting captured by malak
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

What was evident is that Malak betrayed Revan on a time which would be easier to defeat him. Revan was distracted when Malak betrayed him and took advantage. And Malak clearly said that he was soon going to be ready to challenge him for DLOTS title (even if had not betrayed him). It was only a matter of time. See the above. dorak at that part clearly explains why malak used a warship and not get into a fight

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If Lucas Arts really cared then it would have given an official opinion by now but it didn't.

For the time being I consulted an expert (who was the master-mind behind KOTOR) and his views hold more credibility then ours. He knows what is going inside Star Wars. No, sources and canon > drews views. insider already disproves drews opinio

Originally posted by Kadesh
Again thats his opinion and is NOT canon unless approved by LFL
When ever you go back to dantooine to talk to dorak before getting captured by malak
Since there is no official opinion available on his Saber Form then I will prefer what Drew says. You make your own decision.

Originally posted by Kadesh
See the above. dorak at that part clearly explains why malak used a warship and not get into a fight
Dorak only said that Malak betrayed him from Afar because he was afraid to face him. But this was Dorak's opinion of-course.

Malak himself said that he was soon going to challenge Revan for DLOTS title when he met Revan again on Leviathan.

Malak knows better then Dorak about his personal plans.

Originally posted by Kadesh
No, sources and canon > drews views. insider already disproves drews opinio
Wow! Drew defines canon materials. What he says - it gets accepted!

Drew writes canon Novels and also wrote KOTOR. What he said was accepted by canon authorities. Too bad for you.

And now an insider is disputing Drew's views. Sorry! provide me a link to this insider.

Kadesh, you're talking rubbish. Dorak never goes into specifics, all he says is that Revan was the more powerful of the two. He doesn't elaborate on that, and say that he was the greater swordmaster of the two or anything like that, quit lying.

And about Drew: he, like all other LA VIPs, has access to The Holocron, which is basically the Ultimate Star Wars database, and contains pretty much every piece of information on Star Wars that has ever been recorded. However, it's not like he's never been known to make mistakes, for example the whole Vaapad issue in PoD, and I don't ever recall that stuff being said about Niman.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Since there is no official opinion available on his Saber Form then I will prefer what Drew says. You make your own decision.
Yes but revan is far better than that to use the niman form, we cannot take into account of what drew said because it is not canon
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Wow! Drew defines canon materials. What he says - it gets accepted!

Drew wrote canon Novels and also wrote KOTOR. What he said was accepted by canon authorities. Too bad for you.

And now an insider is disputing Drew's views. Sorry! provide me a llink to this insider. So if drew says revan > sidious its canon then? i already told you what drew just told you is not canon until approved by lucasarts. And what he just said about niman completely contradicts of what it has been stated to be. I do not have a link to the insider magazine but i reconmend you read wookiepedia about form VI. It is accurate and i can garentee you it has nothing of what drew told you personally that it allows the user to unleash force attacks.

Niman is the diplomats form, and if it was so great why was alot of the great swordmasters who used that form got killed so easily in the B.O.G.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Yes but revan is far better than that to use the niman form, we cannot take into account of what drew said because it is not canon
What about Jar Kai? Does that sucks too?

Remember when Kas'im unleashed Jar Kai, Bane was in serious trouble. And Bane uses Djem So as far as I know.

And it is only you who does not likes what Drew said. If Drew tells Lucas Arts to make Niman on of his official Saber Forms, guess what will happen? It will get accepted. Too bad for you.

It is however possible that Niman is one of Revan's Saber Forms that he mastered and he might have known more.

Originally posted by Kadesh
So if drew says revan > sidious its canon then? i already told you what drew just told you is not canon until approved by lucasarts. And what he just said about niman completely contradicts of what it has been stated to be. I do not have a link to the insider magazine but i reconmend you read wookiepedia about form VI. It is accurate and i can garentee you it has nothing of what drew told you personally
Drew never compares Jedi in terms of power. He never answers such questions. He says that Star Wars is a dynamic world and out-come of fights depend on many factors and not just on power.

And Drew is not an idiot to state such a thing that Revan > Sidious. He knows that Sidious is most powerful Sith.

Here is what wookieepedia says under "Niman/Jar Kai" article: Many Jedi Knights and Sith Lords trained to use the Niman style in the hopes of gaining a basic knowledge of the dual-bladed attack, but very few ever totally mastered Niman. Jedi Master Micah Giiett was known for using two yellow-bladed lightsabers; Darth Maul learned Jar'Kai during his years of intense training under Darth Sidious; Mace Windu and Depa Billaba both displayed masterful dual sabers combat during the Battle of Haruun Kal; Joclad Danva wielded two lightsabers during the Battle of Geonosis; and Aayla Secura also used Jar'Kai at the end of the Clone Wars. Darth Revan was known to also be a master of Jar'Kai. Other known learners included Exar Kun, Kavar, Sora Bulq, A'Sharad Hett, Quinlan Vos, Serra Keto, Komari Vosa, Asajj Ventress, Jeng Droga, Alora, Darth Krayt, with Lomi Plo and Kol Skywalker as possible practitioners.

Now you see? Revan probably mastered Niman/Jar Kai.

There is no contradiction between what Drew said and what is mentioned in wookieepedia.

Shall I say? Pwned.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/435031_22-darth-nihilus-and-darth-sion-vs-the-rots-jedi-order

Originally posted by Kadesh
Will you accept that i read his emails and daniel wallace stated that palpatine is the strongest sith, he said so in an email to janus and lightsnake

Double standards, much?

Originally posted by allfg


Double standards, much? Idiot his opinion was approved to be canon you damfool

His love letters to Lightsnake are approved by LA?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What about Jar Kai? Does that sucks too!
A question, is jar kai even related to niman?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Remember when Kas'im unleashed Jar Kai, Bane was in serious trouble. And Bane uses Djem So as far as I know.

let me explain. niman contains other forms like shi cho, makashi and djem so correct? But kavar and insider stated that it has no strengths and no weaknesses and thus they called it the moderation form because it is balanced, what i mean is that the elements of other forms in niman is not mastered, If a djem so practitionar were to face a niman user. The djem so masters skill of djem so would > the djem so element in the niman form. thats like saying djem so is 100% which over powers the djem so in niman which is only 50%. Get it?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And it is only you who does not likes what Drew said. If Drew tells Lucas Arts to make Niman on of his official Saber Forms, guess what will happen? It will get accepted. Too bad for you.
Yes i know it will get accepted, all i was pointing out that we cannot say that revan uses niman until drew decides for his opinion to be canon, do you understand?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

It is however possible that Niman is one of Revan's Saber Forms and he might have known more. that i do not deny



Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And Drew is not an idiot to state such a thing that Revan > Sidious. He knows that Sidious is most powerful Sith. Exactly, and he should not be stupid enough to say something which contradicts what has been stated in other sources namely insider
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Here is what wookieepedia says under "Niman/Jar Kai" article: Many Jedi Knights and Sith Lords trained to use the Niman style in the hopes of gaining a basic knowledge of the dual-bladed attack, but very few ever totally mastered Niman. Jedi Master Micah Giiett was known for using two yellow-bladed lightsabers; Darth Maul learned Jar'Kai during his years of intense training under Darth Sidious; Mace Windu and Depa Billaba both displayed masterful dual sabers combat during the Battle of Haruun Kal; Joclad Danva wielded two lightsabers during the Battle of Geonosis; and Aayla Secura also used Jar'Kai at the end of the Clone Wars. Darth Revan was known to also be a master of Jar'Kai. Other known learners included Exar Kun, Kavar, Sora Bulq, A'Sharad Hett, Quinlan Vos, Serra Keto, Komari Vosa, Asajj Ventress, Jeng Droga, Alora, Darth Krayt, with Lomi Plo and Kol Skywalker as possible practitioners.

Now you see? Revan probably mastered Niman/Jar Kai.
Niman is completely different from jar kai, there is no relation, Jar kai is based on using 2 sabers. Niman is a form of moderation and a completely different style
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

There is no contradiction between what Drew said and what is mentioned in wookieepedia.

There is, firstly if i took into account of what you said, how is revan going to even unleash a force attack if he is holding 2 lightsabers? Right he cant. Secondly insider makes no statement that niman allows the user to unleash a force attack. And what drew said is his opinion and thus would have to be approved by LFL which by the way, didnt yet. Lastly jar kai is a completely different form from niman. That is obvious.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Shall I say? Pwned. nope, but you got wtf pwnd by LS advent and gideon these pass few days

Originally posted by allfg
His love letters to Lightsnake are approved by LA? No n00baris. What he put in the NEC of palpatine being the strongest sith

Oh my days, haven't we been through this like a gazillion times already? The NEC is an in-story source, meaning it's subject to inaccuracy, and that any blanket statement inside is purely an opinion of a fallible third party. Now your original response was that Dan Wallace's email backed it up, yet now you're saying that the NEC backs up his opinion? Moronic.

Originally posted by Kadesh
A question, is jar kai even related to niman?
Wookieepedia: Jar'Kai is a subform of Niman. Jar'Kai is one of the oldest forms of lightsaber combat.

Any thing else.

Originally posted by Kadesh
let me explain. niman contains other forms like shi cho, makashi and djem so correct? But kavar and insider stated that it has no strengths and no weaknesses and thus they called it the moderation form because it is balanced, what i mean is that the elements of other forms in niman is not mastered, If a djem so practitionar were to face a niman user. The djem so masters skill of djem so would > the djem so element in the niman form. thats like saying djem so is 100% which over powers the djem so in niman which is only 50%. Get it?
And Drew said this: Form VI works well for anyone who is intelligent and adaptable, as Revan obviously was. It has no real weaknesses.

Guess what? Drew is correct and knows his stuff.

And Revan was so skilled in Saber Combat that he defeated a Juyo user. Jar Kai is also one of Revan's strong points. Kasi'm when unleashed Jar Kai, Bane who was a Djem So user was in trouble. Now you understand?

Originally posted by Kadesh
Yes i know it will get accepted, all i was pointing out that we cannot say that revan uses niman until drew decides for his opinion to be canon, do you understand?

that i do not deny

Drew mentioned one of Revan's Saber Forms that he mastered and it will get accepted sooner or later. At the moment, no one is bothering on this issue.


Originally posted by Kadesh
Exactly, and he should not be stupid enough to say something which contradicts what has been stated in other sources namely insider
And Drew also writes Star Wars canon materials, is this not enough indication for you? His views are not contradicting with that of Lucas Arts or insider. He has access to Star Wars classified information.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Niman is completely different from jar kai, there is no relation, Jar kai is based on using 2 sabers. Niman is a form of moderation and a completely different style
Jar Kai is a sub-form of Niman.

Originally posted by Kadesh
There is, firstly if i took into account of what you said, how is revan going to even unleash a force attack if he is holding 2 lightsabers? Right he cant. Secondly insider makes no statement that niman allows the user to unleash a force attack. And what drew said is his opinion and thus would have to be approved by LFL which by the way, didnt yet. Lastly jar kai is a completely different form from niman. That is obvious.
Revan can unleash attacks like Force Wave when he is using Jar Kai. And when he is using Niman, then it will be easy for him to unleash more Force attacks.

Originally posted by allfg
Oh my days, haven't we been through this like a gazillion times already? The NEC is an in-story source, meaning it's subject to inaccuracy, and that any blanket statement inside is purely an opinion of a fallible third party. Now your original response was that Dan Wallace's email backed it up, yet now you're saying that the NEC backs up his opinion? Moronic. Um idiot? The events of JCW, the infinite empire and everything was precise. And by the way, though it was a in-universe character dating the events, it was written and explained in an out of universe perspection which holds higher credibility, o wait Didnt DESB at the time state the most powerful sith lord had risen? That meant before his DE incarnation he was already the strongest sith lord in history. Sorry you sock but you failed again

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Wookieepedia: Jar'Kai is a subform of Niman. Jar'Kai is one of the oldest forms of lightsaber combat.

Any thing else.

Um anybody could have typed that in. Again i point out, according to insider there is no similarities between jar kai and niman

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And Drew said this: Form VI works well for anyone who is intelligent and adaptable, as Revan obviously was. It has no real weaknesses.

Guess what? Drew is correct and knows his stuff. Guess what, niman has no real strengths either according to kavar in a cut scene
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And Revan was so skilled in Saber Combat that he defeated a Juyo user. Jar Kai is also one of Revan's strong points. Kasi'm when unleashed Jar Kai, Bane who was a Djem So user was in trouble. Now you understand?
Firstly was it even canonically stated that malak used juyo in any sources other than drews opinion which has been yet to be approved? Because according to K2 revan is highly likely to use jar kai. And just because bane nearly got shitted when kasim used jar kai on him does it mean it will work on anakin whom mastered djem so into its highest degree? From what you said because of an isolated case thats like saying oh dooku will always > anakin because in aotc makashi pwned djem so when it changed in ROTS. You yourself just said that it is the outcome in battle which is important, i merely point out just because it happened to bane it doesnt mean it will happen to anakin.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Drew mentioned one of Revan's Saber Forms that he mastered and it will get accepted sooner or later. At the moment, no one is bothering on this issue. Until then i will deny revan using niman while accepting that he does use jar kai from what K2 showed


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And Drew also writes Star Wars canon materials, is this not enough indication for you? His views are not contradicting with that of Lucas Arts or insider. He has access to Star Wars insider materials.
Yes but did he write that because you use niman, so it is easier for you to unleash force attacks? He did not even write that down officialy so how can it be canon? Let me continue in my next line...
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Jar Kai is a sub-form of Niman.
Care to prove that?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Revan can unleash attacks like Force Wave when he is using Jar Kai. And when he is using Niman, then it will be easy for him to unleash more Force attacks. The fact is with any form its easy to unleash a force attack. weather its with djem so or makashi as dooku demonstrated in ROTS.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Um idiot? The events of JCW, the infinite empire and everything was precise. And by the way, though it was a in-universe character dating the events, it was written and explained in an out of universe perspection which holds higher credibility,

No. Lightsnake tries to do this too, but you can't work around this: The NEC is an in-story source, just because it's quite an accurate and well detailed one, that still doesn't change anything.



No. That was never said, I have the source and it's nowhere in there. That was another lie.

Originally posted by allfg
No. Lightsnake tries to do this too, but you can't work around this: The NEC is an in-story source, just because it's quite an accurate and well detailed one, that still doesn't change anything.
its not accurate, its precise dumbass and as i said. That fiction fella dating the events were written in an out of universe explanation and his statement was only backed up by GL stating that the only people who are able to defeat sidious are mace and yoda.

Originally posted by allfg

No. That was never said, I have the source and it's nowhere in there. That was another lie. You are the only liar here sockaholic. Lightsnake pointed that out to us and why would there be a reason for him to lie? You lie because your boyfriend bane got pwned by sidious according to what has been said in the tpm era novels and you do everything you can to go against canon.

you even argue against the law of physics.

Wow...

I've read through everyone's posts, and no one has called a winner yet.

Anakin and Obi Wan.

Why?

Anakin vs. Revan: Form I may allow for more force attacks, but, when Dooku was put against Anakin, Dooku's force mastery was called "A joke." Also, Anakin (along with everyone else) knows Form I. Anakin would bash him into the ground. Also, just for the record: Anakin demolished Cin Drallig, who knew form I, while choking a Padawan.

Obi Wan vs Malak: Didn't Obi Wan already beat the more powerful version of Malak (Anakin)? Anakin is like Malak, only younger, stronger, and angrier. If Obi Wan can defend against 18 lightsaber hits a second from someone with Greivous' strength (with apparent ease I might add), I doubt Malak will be a problem.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He was using the Star Forge to put captured Jedi in stasis form to replenish his energies (if necessary) and thats it. No where it was said that Malak was being crushed in Saber Combat. Star Forge does not enhances the Saber skills of an individual.

Revan used his saber skills in conjunction with his Force Mastery to crush his opponents as evident from Drew's opinion. And Revan's Force Mastery > Malak's Force Mastery.



The star forge powered Malak to an "almost unstoppable" individual. Even if it doesn't enhance Malak's technique, it adds to his powers, thus enabling him to power himself with the force much strong, like speed, strenght, stamina, etc. He also had jedi to fulfill his stamina a couple of times, he had a huge advantage from what he normally would have, even in saber combat. (Though not in technique per say) You cannot deny that.

Originally posted by allfg
Oh my days, haven't we been through this like a gazillion times already? The NEC is an in-story source, meaning it's subject to inaccuracy, and that any blanket statement inside is purely an opinion of a fallible third party. Now your original response was that Dan Wallace's email backed it up, yet now you're saying that the NEC backs up his opinion? Moronic.

I would like to elaborate upon this: tNEC is indeed written in an in-universe perspective from a bunch of New Republic historians, and that means that Nebaris is very much correct in one aspect - all characters in the Star Wars universe are fallible when it comes to their statements, such as Anakin's boastful statements in RotS or Sidious's "everything is proceeding as I have forseen" ramblings.

I would like to point out, however, that the tNEC is written very accurately and the historians in question have an extreme amount of knowledge regarding things that aren't well known - and weren't well known 'til the publishing of the book, including Darth Sidious's own plans and machinations (which very, very few people in the galaxy were aware of).

So, Nebaris, there is no reason to discount tNEC's point of view on Sidious, considering we have all (including you) cited fallible characters in our arguments and expected others to take them seriously.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Wow...

I've read through everyone's posts, and no one has called a winner yet.

Anakin and Obi Wan.

Why?

Anakin vs. Revan: Form I may allow for more force attacks, but, when Dooku was put against Anakin, Dooku's force mastery was called "A joke." Also, Anakin (along with everyone else) knows Form I. Anakin would bash him into the ground. Also, just for the record: Anakin demolished Cin Drallig, who knew form I, while choking a Padawan.
I hate to break it to you, but Revan>Dooku. It was not explicitly stated that Revan was a saber prodigy but Revan WAS the best in an order of tens of thousands, so that would make him quite good at the very LEAST. Add to the fact that he would wtfpwn Anakin with the force, and you have a victory for Revan.



Gee, lets conveniently forget that the fight had nothing to do with anything except for the fact that Obiwan knew Anakin like a book since he trained him. Using that in a debate against someone superior just doesn't work. Malak was #2 in an order of tens of thousands, so he most definitely takes down Obiwan with a saber and pwns him with the force..

It actually was stated that Revan was a force prodigy. Keep up Sexy.

Originally posted by Gideon
I would like to elaborate upon this: tNEC is indeed written in an in-universe perspective from a bunch of New Republic historians, and that means that Nebaris is very much correct in one aspect - all characters in the Star Wars universe are fallible when it comes to their statements, such as Anakin's boastful statements in RotS or Sidious's "everything is proceeding as I have forseen" ramblings.

I would like to point out, however, that the tNEC is written very accurately and the historians in question have an extreme amount of knowledge regarding things that aren't well known - and weren't well known 'til the publishing of the book, including Darth Sidious's own plans and machinations (which very, very few people in the galaxy were aware of).

So, Nebaris, there is no reason to discount tNEC's point of view on Sidious, considering we have all (including you) cited fallible characters in our arguments and expected others to take them seriously.

I'm not denying that Voren Na'al was extremely well informed and that the NEC is for the most part pretty accurate and detailed, however that doesn't mean that everything inside should be treated as fact, especially blanket statements that just don't make sense. RotS Sidious being the most powerful sith ever would be pretty strange (even you have to admit this), so I have no reason to take that personal opinion too seriously.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Wow...

I've read through everyone's posts, and no one has called a winner yet.

Anakin and Obi Wan.

Why?

Anakin vs. Revan: Form I

WTF does From 1 have to do with anything?



Really? I actually didn't know that. Damn... You should've said it sooner man, I mean it's not like you've actually said it like a gazillion times or anything, that's actually the first time I've heard it from you. NeWayz, clearly someone has no clue what the point of that statement actually was. The point was that Anakin's dominance, and sheer speed and strength was so overwhelming for Dooku that he simply couldn't pull of anything with the force; Anakin just wasn't letting him. However, too assume that Anakin would be able to do the same to Revan is asinine, considering that Revan's both younger and more powerful than Dooku, and wouldn't be overwhelmed so easily.



That's great, and I'm sure that Anakin's Form 1 knowledge will be of such great use when up against someone who clearly isn't a Form 1 user.



I don't know about that, Malak was one hell of an angry SoB.




If Malak can lift and choke one powerful jedi, and then throw his lightsaber into him, impaling him, while at the same time blasting another powerful jedi with lightning, I doubt Obi-Wan will be a problem.

Originally posted by allfg
It actually was stated that Revan was a force prodigy. Keep up Sexy.

I said it never stated Revan was a saber prodigy. If you're going to try and make someone else look stupid, don't embarass yourself with your piss poor reading comprehension skills.

It actually was stated that Revan was a saber prodigy. Keep up Sexy.

Originally posted by allfg
It actually was stated that Revan was a saber prodigy. Keep up Sexy.

Make up your mind francine, which one was it? First it was him being a force prodigy which I never stated to be false(hence your embarassing comprehension skills). Now apparently it was stated that Revan was a saber prodigy, which is a lie as it was never stated anywhere. But please continue, embarassing yourself really does naturally to you..

Originally posted by Kadesh
Um anybody could have typed that in. Again i point out, according to insider there is no similarities between jar kai and niman
Is Jar Kai not a Form VI Saber Style?

I guess that it is. Revan indeed mastered Form VI Saber Styles.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Guess what, niman has no real strengths either according to kavar in a cut scene
Niman is the most balanced Saber Form and it has no real weaknesses. This is what matters more.

When you can't find a weakness in a Saber Form of your highly skilled opponent then you will get in trouble.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Firstly was it even canonically stated that malak used juyo in any sources other than drews opinion which has been yet to be approved? Because according to K2 revan is highly likely to use jar kai. And just because bane nearly got shitted when kasim used jar kai on him does it mean it will work on anakin whom mastered djem so into its highest degree? From what you said because of an isolated case thats like saying oh dooku will always > anakin because in aotc makashi pwned djem so when it changed in ROTS. You yourself just said that it is the outcome in battle which is important, i merely point out just because it happened to bane it doesnt mean it will happen to anakin.
Drew gave a hint of what Saber Form Malak used. At-least we now have a hint from an expert and this matters a lot until we get to see an official declaration. Once again Drew will only mention things that are being discussed among Star Wars insiders or classified sources. He is not stupid to give a false or wrong opinion.

And Bane was not a bad fighter either. He fought against one of the greatest Saber duelists of all times and still survived, which is impressive.

And Anakin used Jar Kai against Dooku in AOTC. But you should note that Anakin had not mastered Form VI Saber styles so he failed. He then adopted Djem So and found out that it suited him best and probably mastered it to its highest degree.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Until then i will deny revan using niman while accepting that he does use jar kai from what K2 showed
Your denial is not going to change anything. It is now confirmed that Revan probably mastered Form VI Saber styles (Niman and Jar Kai) to their highest degrees.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Yes but did he write that because you use niman, so it is easier for you to unleash force attacks? He did not even write that down officialy so how can it be canon? Let me continue in my next line...
Care to prove that?
The fact is with any form its easy to unleash a force attack. weather its with djem so or makashi as dooku demonstrated in ROTS.
No you failed to understand that it is more easy to unleash Force attacks with Form VI styles.

If unleashing Force attacks with Makashi was so easy then Dooku would have got a chance against Anakin but he didn't.

Revan and Malak win easily. Malak could take out Kenobi like Dooku did, by tossing him around with the Force. Revan could take Anakin after a long fight. Even if you're of the mind that Anakin could beat Revan Malak will kill Kenobi first and there's no way in hell Anakin's going to be able to take out Revan and Malak 2 on 1.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Is Jar Kai not a Form VI Saber Style?
no it is not according to insider, wookie is shit on that partOriginally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I guess that it is. Revan indeed mastered Form VI Saber Styles.
possible but i highly doubt it is revans form yet
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Niman is the most balanced Saber Form and it has no real weaknesses. This is what matters more.

When you can't find a weakness in a Saber Form of your highly skilled opponent then you will get in trouble. I can refute that by saying it has no strenghts either. And cant find a weakness? Apparantly all masters of niman died in the battle of geonosis when using niman and anakin pwning cin drallig who used niman to its highest degree against anakin

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Drew gave a hint of what Saber Form Malak used. At-least we now have a hint from an expert and this matters a lot until we get to see an official declaration. Once again Drew will only mention things that are being discussed among Star Wars insiders or classified sources. He is not stupid to give a false or wrong opinion. No, what he gave was his opinion which has yet to be approved, until then, malaks form will still be unknown .
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And Bane was not a bad fighter either. He fought against one of the greatest Saber duelists of all times and still survived, which is impressive. Bane nearly died, he was lucky to back a distance away to unleash a force attack, and bane was lucky to have kasim under a structure. Not impressive
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And Anakin used Jar Kai against Dooku in AOTC. But you should note that Anakin had not mastered Form VI Saber styles so he failed. He then adopted Djem So and found out that it suited him best and probably mastered it to its highest degree. And you should notice cin drallig mastered niman to its highest degree and got killed by anakins djem so. Again niman IS NOT jarkai

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Your denial is not going to change anything. It is now confirmed that Revan probably mastered Form VI Saber styles (Niman and Jar Kai) to their highest degrees. Once again niman and jarkai ARE NOT related, why are you so stupid? Insider stated that they have no relations, IDK if revan mastered form 6 or not but the point is JK and NM have absolutely no relations.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

No you failed to understand that it is more easy to unleash Force attacks with Form VI styles. Bullshit, tell me where excactly you got this nonsense from, insider certeinly doesnt say so, and just because drew knows the database doesnt mean he can pull things from his arse until A-P-R-O-V-E-D by lucasarts. The point is with any form you can unleash force attacks, The highest form of canon prove this

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

If unleashing Force attacks with Makashi was so easy then Dooku would have got a chance against Anakin but he didn't. Yup, dooku unleashed it on obiwan during a saber lock, regardless of what form you cannot unleash attacks while defending or striking

Originally posted by allfg
I'm not denying that Voren Na'al was extremely well informed and that the NEC is for the most part pretty accurate and detailed, however that doesn't mean that everything inside should be treated as fact, especially blanket statements that just don't make sense. RotS Sidious being the most powerful sith ever would be pretty strange (even you have to admit this), so I have no reason to take that personal opinion too seriously.

I don't want to get into another argument about this, Nebaris, but the Visual Guide seems to think that Palpatine was the most powerful Sith Lord by Attack of the Clones, and yes, an argument could be made for it, and the Visual Guide is very much canon. Even if we were to discard that, however, we have depictions of his raw power in the Force (which exceeds any Sith Lord prior - to the point that it was killing him).

In an all out fight Revan and Malak win, they have better Force powers, but if this was lightsaber only then Obi-Wan and Anakin would win.

1. Any PT incarnation of Sidious being the most powerful sith ever just plainly makes no sense. It contradicts in-story evidence, and is therefor retconned. You know this, I have seen posts of your's indicating such, otherwise I would elaborate.

2. The quote is in no way conclusive. There's not just one interpretation, and I personally think it's idiotic to go with the interpretation that doesn't makes sense. Again, I would elaborate, but we've already argued the topic to death.



So basically, your argument is that because Sidious' strength in the force was so strong that it was nearly killing his physical body, his raw power is therefor beyond any other sith lord, correct? Your argument fails, when considering other variables.

1. How strong was Sidious' body compared to the other sith lords? Surely you would agree that a stronger physical body would better withstand the deterioration cause by darkside energies, yes? Sidious was pretty old, and his body was pretty weak, so naturally it would be weaker and more vulnerable to the deterioration caused by darkside energies. Now in comparison to a sith lord such as Exar Kun (I'm not saying Exar is more powerful than Sidious, I'm just making a comparison), Sidious is well past his physical prime, and was pretty old, whereas Exar was young and in his physical prime. So surely you would agree that it would take much more power to weaken a physically strong body such as Exar Kun's than it would to weaken a physically weak body such as that of Sidious. So you see, stating that Sidious' raw power is beyond Exar Kun, and anybody else based on that one piece of evidence is 100% fallacious.

2. How great was Sidious' willpower in comparison to the other Sith Lords? Sion, for instance, had a will so strong that he was able to keep his physical body alive, and together, when it should have died and fallen apart years beforeso. Surely, you would agree that how great one's will is would factor in on whether they would be able to contain their power within themselves, yes? Now I'm not saying Sidious has a low willpower or anything, but I'm just saying that it would factor in, and that those with a higher will would have greater resistance.

3. How can you be so certain that it was purely his strength in the force that was killing his physical body? The degree to which Sidious had employed and used the darkside in his entire lifetime would surely factor in, yes? I mean, the same thing was said to have briefly happened to Luke, however it wasn't specifically his strength in the force, but the product of using the force to such an exponential degree. Sidious had been studying and employing the darkside for decades. In comparison to people like Bane, Revan, and Exar Kun who only studied and used it for a few years, the darkside would have been slowly weakening Sidious' body for far longer than it would have for sith lords such as those mentioned.

4. You seem to be ignoring people such as Darth Andeddu, or Darth Nihilus, who's physical bodies were already dead. So how would they apply? There was no physical body to be weakened by their strength in the force. Or people such as Bane, who has orbalisks constantly strengthening his body. Or Sion, who as I mentioned, can keep his body alive when it should have been dead through sheer willpower alone.

Really, that piece of evidence alone in no way indicates that his strength in the force is beyond any other sith lord, and depending on how you look at it, it may even speak badly for Sidious.

Originally posted by allfg
1. Any PT incarnation of Sidious being the most powerful sith ever just plainly makes no sense. It contradicts in-story evidence, and is therefor retconned. You know this, I have seen posts of your's indicating such, otherwise I would elaborate.
No it doesn't contradict anything. I guess you didn't notice when Lucas said he wanted to make it as realistic as possible without overpowering his characters? Not to mention the comics in between that fully cement Sidious' status as #1 sith lord. Not to mention that Sidious, by PT, is already the most opwerful of bane's order. There are MORE than enough canon sources to make it conclusive, you just choose to argue with facts as usual, so you are wrong as usual.


The quotes are conclusive, again because it doesn't fit in with your beliefs its somehow ambiguous. Stop embarassing yourself.




Actually his argument succeeds and your fails, as well as your bullshti about "other variables" you can't even list. It's a completely 100% logical argument that the power Sidious wielde was too great for a human body. This kind of power was never seen from any other sith lords so without any quotes, this is pretty conclusive.


Oh wow.. A human body is a human body. Sidious was what, 42 when he was already deteriorating? Yea he's totally old. And your argument dies yet again when we see a 15 year old Sidious clone deteriorate with ONE year. I shouldn't have to add anything else since you don't have an argument.



Yet another irrelevant post but I'll address this crap anyways. Sidious' willpower was so great that he was able to conjure up force storms that rip apart the fabric of space. You picked the wrong irrelevant topic to argue, because there is no SW character that has more willpower than Sidious.


Translation: I dislike Sidious so I will make up as much bullshit as I possibly can to discredit facts and canon sources.


Completely irrelevant.



You have the debating skills of a 9 year old autistic girl. Please don't waste anymore space.

You would have a point if my only evidence was what the movie characters didn't show, but that's not the case here. The movie characters actually displayed pure incompetence, so the whole 'absence of proof isn't proof of absence' excuse doesn't work here. Now if Yoda was so strong with the force, then why did he struggle like a b1tch with using the force to lift something as light (in comparison) as the crane in AotC at the end of his duel with Dooku? His whole body was shaking, he almost lost balance and fell over, he had to put on his mean face to pull off such a feat, and he was only just able to stop the crane from falling on Anakin and Obi-Wan. That scene quite clearly makes it clear that in the force, Yoda was nothing compared to people such as Bane, Exar, Nihilus etc. RotS proved that Sidious and Yoda were pretty much pure equals in the force, so Sidious sucks just as much. Now that's how the quote contradicts in-story evidence.



Not really, and again, even if they did, they contradict the movies.



We're already arguing the validity of these blanket statements, so why the feck are you bringing up another?



Sidious can have 100 source claiming that he's the most powerful sith ever, but when it contradicts the highest canon source, it's plain wrong. Accept that.



Oh my days, you were also arguing against the quote, you fricking dumbass.



Someone needs to learnt to read. The variables are listed below.



WRONG!!
By your logic, Sidious is stronger than Luke as well.
Now it wasn't that the power that Sidious wielded was too strong for any human body, but specifically his human body.



Are you actually denying that a 42 year old body is not physically past its prime?



No, my argument doesn't die you freaking dumbass, because that clone body was no normal 15 year old body, but an inherently weak 15 year old body. Know what you're talking about.



Listing one great feat of willpower doesn't prove that his willpower is beyond anybody else's. By your logic, I can say that because Sion's will was so great that he was able to hold his entire body together, and keep himself alive when he should have died years ago, his willpower is therefor greater than everyone else's. See how dumb that is without proof that the willpower of everyone else isn't as great as his?



Translation: ... Wait, I can't translate this, I'm not familiar with the whole looser/geek style of speech.



How the fvck is it irrelevant, you dumbass. Gideon's comparison doesn't apply to those people that I mentioned, so he can't use that piece of evidence to place Sidious above them. You're dumb.



That's great, I don't even know what's worse, your debating skillz, or your insulting skillz. Seriously man, stick to arguing against Kadesh and Legend.

No Lightsnake, GL's intentions were never to make the jedi godlike, as can be seen at the end of AotC, when he has Yoda, who also happened to be the most powerful jedi at the time struggle with lifting a relatively light pillar. Now in comparison to people like Nihilus who could use the force to move entire fleets, or Bane who could use the force to move an entire moon, or Luke and Kyp Durron who could manipulate Black Holes, that's virtually the opposite of godlike.

Originally posted by allfg
You would have a point if my only evidence was what the movie characters didn't show, but that's not the case here. The movie characters actually displayed pure incompetence, so the whole 'absence of proof isn't proof of absence' excuse doesn't work here. Now if Yoda was so strong with the force, then why did he struggle like a b1tch with using the force to lift something as light (in comparison) as the crane in AotC at the end of his duel with Dooku? His whole body was shaking, he almost lost balance and fell over, he had to put on his mean face to pull off such a feat, and he was only just able to stop the crane from falling on Anakin and Obi-Wan. That scene quite clearly makes it clear that in the force, Yoda was nothing compared to people such as Bane, Exar, Nihilus etc. RotS proved that Sidious and Yoda were pretty much pure equals in the force, so Sidious sucks just as much. Now that's how the quote contradicts in-story evidence.



Not really, and again, even if they did, they contradict the movies.



We're already arguing the validity of these blanket statements, so why the feck are you bringing up another?



Sidious can have 100 source claiming that he's the most powerful sith ever, but when it contradicts the highest canon source, it's plain wrong. Accept that.



Oh my days, you were also arguing against the quote, you fricking dumbass.



Someone needs to learnt to read. The variables are listed below.



WRONG!!
By your logic, Sidious is stronger than Luke as well.
Now it wasn't that the power that Sidious wielded was too strong for any human body, but specifically his human body.



Are you actually denying that a 42 year old body is not physically past its prime?



No, my argument doesn't die you freaking dumbass, because that clone body was no normal 15 year old body, but an inherently weak 15 year old body. Know what you're talking about.



Listing one great feat of willpower doesn't prove that his willpower is beyond anybody else's. By your logic, I can say that because Sion's will was so great that he was able to hold his entire body together, and keep himself alive when he should have died years ago, his willpower is therefor greater than everyone else's. See how dumb that is without proof that the willpower of everyone else isn't as great as his?



Translation: ... Wait, I can't translate this, I'm not familiar with the whole looser/geek style of speech.



How the fvck is it irrelevant, you dumbass. Gideon's comparison doesn't apply to those people that I mentioned, so he can't use that piece of evidence to place Sidious above them. You're dumb.



That's great, I don't even know what's worse, your debating skillz, or your insulting skillz. Seriously man, stick to arguing against Kadesh and Legend.

Aww how cute! The little ****** just repeated everything I said to him, back to me. Self pwnage as usual francine?

Right, because I was totally talking like some kind of loser and telling you to stop embarrassing yourself and that you're in denial and all the other lame shit you say.

Seriously man, why the fvck did you even decide to post? My argument was addressed to Gideon, now as if hijacking other people's arguments isn't bad enough, you didn't even do a good job of it, and only answered about half of my points.

You don't have an argument and whatever was left of your useless text was defeated. Be lucky anyone even addresses you anymore.. Tool..

Ok, I'm done with you, go back to debating SW Legend and Kadesh and others on your level.

Originally posted by Kadesh
no it is not according to insider, wookie is shit on that part
It is indicated that to practise and master Jar Kai, mastering of Form VI is necessary.

Originally posted by Kadesh
possible but i highly doubt it is revans form yet
To master Niman to its highest degree, Revan indeed practised following Saber Forms:

- Form I (Shi Cho)
- Form III (Soresu)
- Form IV (Ataru)
- Form V (Djem So) Reason: Revan was indeed an aggressive fighter.

Now after mastering Niman, Revan went on to practise and mastered Jar Kai Combat Style.

Now you see? things have gotten more clear as I consulted an expert on this issue.

Originally posted by Kadesh
I can refute that by saying it has no strenghts either. And cant find a weakness? Apparantly all masters of niman died in the battle of geonosis when using niman and anakin pwning cin drallig who used niman to its highest degree against anakin
Check the above explanation.

It is not necessary that Revan used Form VI when facing heavy odds. He practised and mastered several Saber styles. Remember that Drew also said that Revan was a skilled swordsman.

Now we have a more clear picture of Revan's Saber skills.

Originally posted by Kadesh
No, what he gave was his opinion which has yet to be approved, until then, malaks form will still be unknown.
We got a hint about Malak's Saber Form. Remember that Juyo is designed to suit aggressive fighters and Malak was one very aggressive fighter. He used to recklessely charge in to dangerous fights and win (as indicated in SW Databank).

I would believe what Drew said. Malak used Juyo according to him and I will accept it because we have no other official sources to tell us about Malak's Saber skills.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Bane nearly died, he was lucky to back a distance away to unleash a force attack, and bane was lucky to have kasim under a structure. Not impressive
Then you should note that Kas'im was a skilled swordsman and also adept in Jar Kai combat style. And you should also note that Revan was also a skilled swordsman and an adept Jar Kai user.

Originally posted by Kadesh
And you should notice cin drallig mastered niman to its highest degree and got killed by anakins djem so. Again niman IS NOT jarkai
Well mastering Niman is necessary before moving towards Jar Kai because several Jedi did so. This is the reason that Revan mastered Niman before mastering Jar Kai and it makes sense to me.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Once again niman and jarkai ARE NOT related, why are you so stupid? Insider stated that they have no relations, IDK if revan mastered form 6 or not but the point is JK and NM have absolutely no relations.
Jar Kai and Niman are related because several sources point out that mastering Niman is necessary before mastering Jar Kai. You are making no sense here.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Bullshit, tell me where excactly you got this nonsense from, insider certeinly doesnt say so, and just because drew knows the database doesnt mean he can pull things from his arse until A-P-R-O-V-E-D by lucasarts. The point is with any form you can unleash force attacks, The highest form of canon prove this
Stop acting like an idiot or a child. Mastering Niman is not a bad thing and it is just one of the Saber Forms that Revan mastered and Drew hinted on it. You are not an expert and nor anybody to trash an expert's opinion.

Revan mastered more then a single Saber Form because he faced many hard challenges and to succeed in them, it was a necessary requirement. You should note that mastering Niman is not at all an easy task and required more then 10 damn years and study of several other Saber Forms.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Yup, dooku unleashed it on obiwan during a saber lock, regardless of what form you cannot unleash attacks while defending or striking
Obi-Wan got distracted by Magnaguards and Dooku got time to over-power him when he was blocking Obi-Wan's move. And Obi-Wan was not all over him when this happened.

Force attacks can be unleashed during any form of fighting but it becomes easier to unleash them when using Niman. This is a simple point.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
In an all out fight Revan and Malak win, they have better Force powers, but if this was lightsaber only then Obi-Wan and Anakin would win.
Not so fast.

Revan was a skilled swordsman and practised/mastered several Light Saber Forms. he was number 1 in an order of thousands. Mastering of Niman and Jar Kai Combat styles is a very difficult thing and it takes over a decade to achieve this.

Malak was also a master swordsman and Drew said that he used Juyo.

This will be a hard fight indeed but both Revan and Malak can win even in a pure dueling contest.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I said it never stated Revan was a saber prodigy. If you're going to try and make someone else look stupid, don't embarass yourself with your piss poor reading comprehension skills.
Master Vandar proudly called Revan: "The Prodigal Knight" after his massive fight on Star Forge.

This statement alone is sufficient answer.

Originally posted by allfg
Ok, I'm done with you, go back to debating SW Legend and Kadesh and others on your level.

You really have a bad case of denial for someone that's never come close to winning an argument. If I am on the level of Legend and Kadesh(yea right, no offense to them), you are somewhat below Numan. But please keep lying to yourself, you ARE the forum joke.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is indicated that to practise and master Jar Kai, mastering of Form VI is necessary. Prove it and quit making shit up, Firstly no where it states you have to learn Niman to learn jarkai because sora bulq asaji ventress and komari vosa are all jar kai users and they have never mastered the art of niman. Reading on their background simply pwns what ever shit you pull out from your ass
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


To master Niman to its highest degree, Revan indeed practised following Saber Forms:

- Form I (Shi Cho)
- Form III (Soresu)
- Form IV (Ataru)
- Form V (Djem So) Reason: Revan was indeed an aggressive fighter. Problably but the point is that im pointing out we-dont-know-revans-main-form. So why keep telling me the same thing which is irrelevant?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Now after mastering Niman, Revan went on to practise and mastered Jar Kai Combat Style. So? What who gives? We know revan is a prodigy at lightsaber skills but do we ever know whats his main form? WE DONT KNOW so why the hell are you telling me "he m astered this he mastered that" when we dont even know which form he uses? I told you time and again drews opinion has-yet-to-be-approved
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Now you see? things have gotten more clear as I consulted an expert on this issue. No you did not, you just made things worse,
First you claim niman is a sub form of jar kai
then you say that you must master niman to master jarkai. And i have refuted that by pointing out characters who use jar kai YET never learnt niman


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

It is not necessary that Revan used Form VI when facing heavy odds. He practised and mastered several Saber styles. Remember that Drew also said that Revan was a skilled swordsman.
Exactly but we do not know which form he would use
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Now we have a more clear picture of Revan's Saber skills.
It is still the same, all we know he is a great duelist and a superb one
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

We got a hint about Malak's Saber Form. Remember that Juyo is designed to suit aggressive fighters and Malak was one very aggressive fighter. He used to recklessely charge in to dangerous fights and win (as indicated in SW Databank). So? Anakin is extremely agressive and he doesnt use juyo, The "hint" again has-yet-to-be-approved by LFL thus cannot be taken into consideration. By the way revan > malak in saber combat so why is malak using a better form than what revan is using? Juyo is stated to be the best form behind vaapad.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I would believe what Drew said. Malak used Juyo according to him and I will accept it because we have no other official sources to tell us about Malak's Saber skills. see the above, drews opinion has yet-to-be-approved, If he says malak is the most powerful sith, i bet you will believe him and i garentee you will also agree when he makes shit up to put revan above sidious.

According to c-a-n-o-n sources, malaks saber form is unknown, and if drew wants to make malak use juyo, it will have to be submitted for approval which has yet to be done friend. we cannot say "o malak uses juyo cuz DK says so which hasnt been approved"

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Then you should note that Kas'im was a skilled swordsman and also adept in Jar Kai combat style. And you should also note that Revan was also a skilled swordsman and an adept Jar Kai user.
So? Just because bane got shitted does it mean anakin will?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Well mastering Niman is necessary before moving towards Jar Kai because several Jedi did so. This is the reason that Revan mastered Niman before mastering Jar Kai and it makes sense to me.
Sorry legend, that assumption of yours just got shitted when i mentioned the few characters who used jar kai without learning niman
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Jar Kai and Niman are related because several sources point out that mastering Niman is necessary before mastering Jar Kai. You are making no sense here. Name your sources please, wookie right? Sorry but it is not accurate because according to novels and the insider magazine. niman is not related to jar kai. Again komari vosa, asaji ventressm general grievious, sora bulq all mastered jar kai without learning niman

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Stop acting like an idiot or a child. Mastering Niman is not a bad thing and it is just one of the Saber Forms that Revan mastered and Drew hinted on it. You are not an expert and nor anybody to trash an expert's opinion.
Did i say it was a bad thing? maybe i did, i was simply pointing out the fact that drews opinion hasnt been approved and thus we cannot use it in debate, for revan using jarkai we can because WE SEEN revan wielding 2 sabers in K2
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Revan mastered more then a single Saber Form because he faced many hard challenges and to succeed in them, it was a necessary requirement. You should note that mastering Niman is not at all an easy task and required more then 10 damn years and study of several other Saber Forms. Apparantly drallig also mastered this form as did colemen trebor and please tell me who said niman takes 10 years? vaapad was mastered shorter than that and vaapad is hell alot better than niman is

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Obi-Wan got distracted by Magnaguards and Dooku got time to over-power him when he was blocking Obi-Wan's move. And Obi-Wan was not all over him when this happened. Or when vader lifted the tree to smash the dark lady in a middle of a duel... go on

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Force attacks can be unleashed during any form of fighting but it becomes easier to unleash them when using Niman. This is a simple point. Remember kavar stating it has no strengths? If niman makes it easier by striking with the force, that means thats a strength of niman which contradicts what official sources stated, sorry but you failed again

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You really have a bad case of denial for someone that's never come close to winning an argument. If I am on the level of Legend and Kadesh(yea right, no offense to them), you are somewhat below Numan. But please keep lying to yourself, you ARE the forum joke.

was that sarcasm?

That was towards Noobaris

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
That was towards Noobaris seems that you really hate the fella, He has no life anyways. He said he wants to be "teh number 1 rebel on teh intronet" hah but a loser. I think he wants to get laid by a robot

Enough.

Nebaris, we've started off so nicely since my return here, so do not ruin it. You will not tell me that I am wrong when you have nothing to back it up with. We have argued to death on the subject, and all of your arguments about that damn quote have been very nicely dealt with and rendered invalid. Mine have not. You do not dictate "what is retconned" and what is not. You are not Lucas or a member of the Holocron. Remember that.

Ok, I'll admit that maybe the whole accomplishments argument was a little off, but seriously, even you must admit that having Sidious by AotC being the most powerful sith ever a little odd.

Really, IIRC, the quote was something like "The Greatest Master of Evil to ever use Sith Power." I really don't see how you get power from that.



Right, so you're basically saying that even if a statement from a Reference Guide doesn't make sense in the setting that the guide is based from, it still remains valid? So if the next edition of the Essential Chronology states that 2 + 2 = 5, you will therefor accept it as SW fact?

Oh and you don't need to be Lucas or a member of the holocron to spot contradictions. Remember that.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Prove it and quit making shit up, Firstly no where it states you have to learn Niman to learn jarkai because sora bulq asaji ventress and komari vosa are all jar kai users and they have never mastered the art of niman. Reading on their background simply pwns what ever shit you pull out from your ass
I was thinking that you will understand what I said but now you had it.

The Sources:

A) Jar'Kai is the traditional name applied to the style of lightsaber combat that uses a blade in each hand, frequently called Niman (the name for Form VI) by savvy modern practitioners since that form is the current Jedi standard. - Dark Forces

B) However, there is one saving grace to this form: Niman is the stepping stone to the dual lightsaber form, known as Jar'Kai - no one who has successfully mastered Jar'Kai has done so without first mastering Niman - Hero's Guide Web Enhancement 3 (Saber Forms and Fallanassi)

C) Many Jedi Knights and Sith Lords trained to use the Niman style in the hopes of gaining a basic knowledge of the dual-bladed attack. - Wookieepedia

Now you think that all these sources are lying? Stop acting like an idiot.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Problably but the point is that im pointing out we-dont-know-revans-main-form. So why keep telling me the same thing which is irrelevant?
The concept of a main Saber Form does not fits in case of Revan yet, want to know why? The reason is that when a Jedi practises/masters several Saber Forms, he can use any single of those Saber Forms in combat.

Consider these two examples:

Revan's case: Revan mastered Form I, possibly Form V, Form VI and Jar Kai Form. So he can use any of these Saber Forms in combat situations. There is no restrictions imposed on him to just use Form VI.

Kas'im case: He mastered all 7 Saber Forms and also the Jar Kai Form. Thus he can use any Saber Form in combat. There is no restrictions imposed on him to just use a single Saber Form because he is good in all Saber Forms.

Originally posted by Kadesh
So? What who gives? We know revan is a prodigy at lightsaber skills but do we ever know whats his main form? WE DONT KNOW so why the hell are you telling me "he m astered this he mastered that" when we dont even know which form he uses? I told you time and again drews opinion has-yet-to-be-approved
Once again! there is no such thing as a main Saber Form for a Jedi who has practised/mastered several Saber Forms.

The concept of main Saber Form applies to those Jedi who mastered only a single Saber Form like Anakin mastered Djem So, so it is his main Saber Form.

Originally posted by Kadesh
No you did not, you just made things worse,
First you claim niman is a sub form of jar kai
then you say that you must master niman to master jarkai. And i have refuted that by pointing out characters who use jar kai YET never learnt niman
You are such an idiot.

I posted what was mentioned in wookieepedia. It is stated in wookieepedia that Jar Kai is sub-form of Niman.

Why don't you go and edit its profile and mention the reasons that why these two Saber Forms are not related in there discussion section?

Secondly, several sources that I mentioned above indicate that Jar Kai is related to Niman. Now so many sources are saying the same thing and this is giving us a strong indication.

And prove that several Jar Kai users never even practised Niman?

Originally posted by Kadesh
Exactly but we do not know which form he would use
- K2 showed that Revan mastered Jar Kai.
- Drew indicated that Revan mastered Niman.

Now Jar Kai is related to Niman. A connection has been established here.

Now to master Niman, Revan had to practise and even probably mastered several other Saber Forms. Drew said that Revan was a skilled swordsman, so it means that he was a great fighter and duelist.

I think that this entire picture has made us clear for us that what Revan probably practised and mastered. So stop being an @ss and try to understand a bigger picture here. No one said that Niman was his main Saber Form. All I am saying that it is just one Saber Form that Revan mastered apart from others.

Originally posted by Kadesh
It is still the same, all we know he is a great duelist and a superb one
Drew and I both said that Revan was a skilled swordsman. And Drew and K2 gave use hints on Revan's Saber Forms.

K2 is a canon source. Drew is a SW Author and writes canon materials. What they indicate, it gets accepted so stop acting like a child and understand the bigger picture that I provided above.

Originally posted by Kadesh
So? Anakin is extremely agressive and he doesnt use juyo, The "hint" again has-yet-to-be-approved by LFL thus cannot be taken into consideration. By the way revan > malak in saber combat so why is malak using a better form than what revan is using? Juyo is stated to be the best form behind vaapad.
Anakin is aggressive in dueling but it still requires Jedi discipline. Here is a logical deduction: Obi-Wan instructed Anakin in the ways of Jedi. Obi-Wan practised Form III and Form IV. Now Djem So is a combination of Form III and Form IV. So Anakin pratised both these Forms and then went on to study and master Djem So. See the connection?

Malak was also aggressive in dueling. But he lacked Jedi discipline and his masters were afraid to unleash him in combat situations. Juyo is a type of Saber Form that suits reckless and aggressive Jedi.

Form VII draws upon a deeper well of emotion than even Form V. - SW insider 62

Malak had no proper control over his emotions and he was aggressive. Juyo suits him best and accordintg to Drew he used it. I will agree with what Drew says. Stop being a dolt once again.

Originally posted by Kadesh
see the above, drews opinion has yet-to-be-approved, If he says malak is the most powerful sith, i bet you will believe him and i garentee you will also agree when he makes shit up to put revan above sidious.
Once again you made a stupid assertion that Drew will say that his characters are most powerful? He is a professional and not an idiot.

Do you know that Drew was once asked a question that who is more powerful among these characters? Darth Revan, Darth Bane & Darth Vader. Drew refused to answer this question and said that Star Wars is a dynamic world and out-come of fights in Star Wars depend on several factors.

Drew is a sensible man and I can safely trust his views.

Originally posted by Kadesh
According to c-a-n-o-n sources, malaks saber form is unknown, and if drew wants to make malak use juyo, it will have to be submitted for approval which has yet to be done friend. we cannot say "o malak uses juyo cuz DK says so which hasnt been approved"
A view of a SW Author is no less then a canon because they define canon materials. Lucas Arts will probably never give an official opinion on Malak's and Revan's Saber Forms unless pushed but no one is doing that so why wait?

Drew gave us a hint about what Saber Form Malak used and it suits his personality. You have trouble in accepting this then STFU or don't reply to my post.

Originally posted by Kadesh
So? Just because bane got shitted does it mean anakin will?
I don't know that what Anakin would do in his place. Kas'im was no joke when it came to Saber Combat.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Sorry legend, that assumption of yours just got shitted when i mentioned the few characters who used jar kai without learning niman
Name your sources please, wookie right? Sorry but it is not accurate because according to novels and the insider magazine. niman is not related to jar kai. Again komari vosa, asaji ventressm general grievious, sora bulq all mastered jar kai without learning niman
Before making your points provide me direct links to your sources and I will check them. The burden of proof is upon you and you should provide me evidences.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Did i say it was a bad thing? maybe i did, i was simply pointing out the fact that drews opinion hasnt been approved and thus we cannot use it in debate, for revan using jarkai we can because WE SEEN revan wielding 2 sabers in K2
Drew has access to Star Wars classified materials. He will discuss those things that he considers to be appropriate and safe to disuss with fans. I don't give a damn about what you think about his views.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Apparantly drallig also mastered this form as did colemen trebor and please tell me who said niman takes 10 years? vaapad was mastered shorter than that and vaapad is hell alot better than niman is
You are a complete dolt.

Young Jedi spend their first few years studying Form I and then a year or two with each additional Form before completing their training. By comparison, a Form VI master will spend at least ten years studying only that Form after completing the basic Form I training. - Star Wars insider 62

Now STFU.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Or when vader lifted the tree to smash the dark lady in a middle of a duel... go on
You totally twisted my point.

And Revan can defeat him.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Remember kavar stating it has no strengths? If niman makes it easier by striking with the force, that means thats a strength of niman which contradicts what official sources stated, sorry but you failed again
Stop just believing that Niman is the main Saber Form of Revan. He practised and mastered several Saber Forms that I have mentioned before here.

EDIT

EDIT

ok there are somethings i did not read, for now i rest my case

Sorry to be a pain, but, where is it said that Revan mastered or practiced all the forms that you're implying he did?

Another point: Why does it matter all that much? Anakin mastered form V and was the finest practitioner that Dooku had ever seen (and probably mastered Form VI, due to fighting with two sabers if you're implying that it takes form VI mastery to do that).
Also, Anakin beat Asajj, who fought with both a double and a two bladed lightsaber (and was damn good).
Dooku, who was that former battle master, meaning he knew all forms, and "had studied the ways of the Force for almost eight decades, becoming one of its most powerful practitioners" along with being "unequaled in a classical form of lightsaber combat," was dealt with by Anakin in 30 seconds (including a 13 second saber lock, and Anakin temporarily not giving in to his anger).

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Sorry to be a pain, but, where is it said that Revan mastered or practiced all the forms that you're implying he did?

Another point: Why does it matter all that much? Anakin mastered form V and was the finest practitioner that Dooku had ever seen (and probably mastered Form VI, due to fighting with two sabers if you're implying that it takes form VI mastery to do that).
Also, Anakin beat Asajj, who fought with both a double and a two bladed lightsaber (and was damn good).
Dooku, who was that former battle master, meaning he knew all forms, and "had studied the ways of the Force for almost eight decades, becoming one of its most powerful practitioners" along with being "unequaled in a classical form of lightsaber combat," was dealt with by Anakin in 30 seconds (including a 13 second saber lock, and Anakin temporarily not giving in to his anger).
Drew said that Revan was a skilled swordsman. Now the meanings of word skilled are "experienced, trained and expert". This point is further reinforced by KOTOR as Revan was declared a Prodigal Knight in its end.

Then KOTOR II (which is a canon material) indicated that Revan mastered Jar Kai Combat Style.

Drew also indicated that Revan mastered Form VI. Now mastering of Form VI requires study and practise of various other Saber Combat Forms. And these are Form I, Form III, Form VI and Form V. You can read this in star wars insider 62.

Now this means that Revan had indeed practised and perhaps even mastered some of these Saber Forms (as he was always interested in learning more) before he even proceeded to learn/master Form VI.

Then Jar Kai is related to Form VI and mastering it requires proficiency in Form VI. This has been indicated in several sources that I mentioned before here.

So I constructed a logical deduction regarding Revan's Combat Styles from all these sources and indications. If you have properly read my last very previous in this thread then you won't have questioned this.

In a saber fight Obi-Wan and Anakin win, Obi holds of Revan(because Obi is a soresu master), while Anakin kills Malak.

Legend, I was wondering why you implied he had mastered forms when all he would have to do is study them. Thanks for clearing that up, though.

Also, Dooku had been a battle master, so, to assume dis-familiarity with forms seems kind of dumb. Also, he mentions how he knows Ataru inside and out, along with Maksashi, he instantly recognized Soresu at the first saber movement, and could tell right away about Anakins use of Form V.

Jesus Legend, you sound like you want to give Revan a rim job...

From the Revan vs. Ankin thread:

Even if Revan could beat Anakin in the force department, what makes anyone here think he would? Once he entered melee, no way he could get off a force attack while in saber combat (seeing as how Dooku's force prowess was called "A joke," even though he uses Makashi, a form that leaves a hand free, for possible force attacks).
Now, why would Revan enter melee? Well, a good reason is because he doesn't know who the Hell Anakin is, and is woefully unaware of how badly he will get demolished and how quickly Anakin could be wearing his skin like a suit. I thought of another reason thanks to my good friend Nebby. He pointed out with such intensely powerful emotion and unwavering rhetoric that:


quote: (post)
Originally posted by allfg
There's also the fact that Revan was perfectly content with going into battle with three powerful jedi with just his saber. Now we now that Revan certainly has the ability to have just taken them all out with the force, yet he was still confident enough in his saber ability to take it easy and just use his saber...


Wow. That was amazing. Basically, allfg has shown us that Revan, as a first reaction, brings out the lightsaber (also, in the picture of Revan over a defeated Malak Revan had a lightsaber out). Meaning, Anakin, as a first reaction, brings out a can of Whoop Ass.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
From the Revan vs. Ankin thread:

Even if Revan could beat Anakin in the force department, what makes anyone here think he would? Once he entered melee, no way he could get off a force attack while in saber combat (seeing as how Dooku's force prowess was called "A joke," even though he uses Makashi, a form that leaves a hand free, for possible force attacks).
Now, why would Revan enter melee? Well, a good reason is because he doesn't know who the Hell Anakin is, and is woefully unaware of how badly he will get demolished and how quickly Anakin could be wearing his skin like a suit. I thought of another reason thanks to my good friend Nebby. He pointed out with such intensely powerful emotion and unwavering rhetoric that:
Who's the idiot that came up with that one? The first line is already one of the dumbest things i've read on this forum. So you're saying Revan, who is superior to Anakin in the force by a considerable margin, cannot distance himself from Anakin, whereas we see Sidious, who is no better than Yoda in anything, distance himself from the green freak? Great logic there. I'm going to guess it's Noobaris..

cry

I was assuming since all Dooku's knowledge was described as "A joke"...


Jerk!

Revan isn't leagues above Dooku, Dooku was almost good as Yoda in all departments and better at some(Dark Side powers).

That's because Yoda never wanted to kill him in the first place.

Yes he did, he preferred to take him alive, but if he had to kill him, he would have.

Almost as good as Yoda?

Yoda was toying him with the force. Yoda was not doing a single attack except shooting back Dooku's own lightning at him, which Dooku did not handle at a nearly as impressive rate as Yoda himself. Dooku tossed everything he had, and Yoda didn't budge an inch. Dooku wasn't close...

Saber wise, Dooku was far off as well. Remember in Dark Rendevouz, where Dooku is on a dark side planet, making him much, much stronger, even (according to that quote) stronger than Mace Windu on that planet, and yet, even though Yoda ALSO had to save a maiden falling out from a window (Dooku's fault) he still managed to hold him off, even chase him off. With all those advantages and still lose, I'd say he is not nearly equal to Yoda in saber either.

Yoda is indeed more powerful then Dooku. And his saber skills are also better than that of Dooku.

Because he is a Jedi, doesn't have offensive Force powers.
And in Dark Rendevouz, on Vjun it was still a close fight and Dooku did injure him and Yoda tried his best to stop Dooku from escaping on Geonosis, before the fight he said If Dooku escapes, rally more systems to his, cause he will. He cared about Dooku, but he was a Jedi first, he tried his best against Dooku.

Jedi have offensive powers, but they don't use them nearly as often as Sith, and not nearly as devestating.

Yeah, but those are such major advantages that it's silly. On this forum, we have come to the conclusion that Mace is Dooku's superior when it comes to saber, yet on Vjuun, Dooku was his superior, AND the fact that Yoda was stalled by aiding a maiden with the force. That would be like removing one hand on a boxer and taking away the gloves of the other, then pit them against eachother....


The reason he escaped was because if Yoda chose to kill Dooku there, Anakin and Obi-Wan would've died.

Yes, but Yoda tried to best of his abilites, to defeat Count Dooku, twice.

Yeah, he did, but Dooku always escapes somehow. No one can underestimate Dooku's intelligence and skill...

Vividly his mind went back to their last meeting, on Geonosis: swords drawn at last, and finally equal.
What a bittersweet moment-to see Yoda again, and be a match, or more than a match for him... -Count Dooku

Farther back, he and Dooku in a cave on Geonosis. The hiss and flash of humming lightsabers, darkly beautiful,like dragonflies, and Dooku still a boy of twenty, not the old man whispering on top of poor dead Jang's blade.- Yoda

But Yoda would be prepared for that; it would never be so easy. Count Dooku prided himself on his ability to see reality for what it really was.
-Count Dooku

Doku is 90% of Yoda, if Yoda is 100% if not litle more, but Yoda has a big advantage, that he is fast and small, he is hard to hit.

Dooku is 90% of Yoda based on what? That would make Dooku 90% of Sidious also (since they're equal), which would actually make him stronger than Vader. (Which I believe we argued otherwise in the first thread on this forum to go 1000 posts).

Again, if Dooku grows so much in power that he is actually superior to Mace whereas he normally isn't, and has an extra plan to stall Yoda, and yet still fails, I wouldn't put Dooku at 90% of Yoda.

Count Makashi, I believe that some of your assertions stem more from bias than truth. I don't see any particular reason to deduce that Yoda was "going full out" on Dooku in either instance .

On Geonosis, Dooku initiates the attack on Yoda by using the Force to throw debris and rocks at Yoda - and in both cases, the attacks are deflected and brushed harmly aside. Yoda did not make any attempt to attack Dooku at that point. The second salvo consisted of the Force lightning, and the first time, Yoda simply caught the lightning in his hand and crushed it. Only in the final situation did Yoda make any attempt to harm Count Dooku, and it was with his own lightning. So, then, they switch to lightsabers, and it's not an epic fight. Yoda very much shows that he could control the duel in its entirety. As it ended in a saber lock, Yoda seemed very much amused with his "fought well you have, my young padawan" as if he had no intention of killing Dooku at all.

Then of course we have the obvious opportunities - he could have very easily killed Dooku as Dooku used his power to bring down the column. The second instance is, of course, he could have let Anakin and Kenobi die if he was absolutely concerned with killing Count Dooku himself. In Shatterpoint, Mace Windu muses that he could have easily killed Dooku when he had the chance, but his former friendship and respect for the Count clouded his judgment.

The second instance on Vjun, we know that Yoda all along wanted to bring Dooku back to the fold. That message was made very, very clear in that book. Dooku was Yoda's prized pupil and his protege; which explains his lack of zeal when it came to fighting Dooku on Geonosis. Even then, on Vjun - a planet steeped in the dark side of the Force - Dooku was completely unable to kill Yoda. A Yoda who didn't want to kill him, and a Yoda who was half distracted. The same opportunity came on Vjun: Dooku was forced to flee and used the missile to serve as the distraction. However, if Yoda really wanted to kill him, he would have done so.

In both examples, I see no reason why Yoda was going "full out". The only time we see him do so is against Sidious. As for your "Dooku is 90% of Yoda", we know that is incorrect, as it is a speculatory statistic and nothing more.

There is nothing to suggest that the power gap is that small.

Wasn't Force duel on Geonosis a stalemate?
Even if Yoda didn't try to kill Dooku on Vjun, he tried his best, Dooku also didn't try to kill Anakin, due to Sidious orders, but that doesn't mean he didn't try his best. On Geonosis i believe he went all out, he said before IF Dooku escapes rally more systems to his cause he will, he went in the hangar to stop Dooku, but if he had to kill him, he wouldn't hesitate, he is a Jedi, duty comes first. And Dooku could easily kill Yoda, when he is trying to stop the pillar from faling. And like you said, he used Dookus lightning to return it to Dooku, isn't that trying to harm him, he went to stop him, any means necessary, but yes he preferred to take him alive. And who was more out of breath, when the fight ended, Yoda was more tired then Dooku, breathing heavily and he didn't sound to be amusing to me.
And Mace only had a chance to kill him, when he came from behind, when he had a element of surprise, not in a actual fight.

And if power gap would be huge, Yoda would easily defeat Dooku.

And for vader argument for Kamikz, do you see Vader doing as good as Dooku against Yoda, i don't.

"Much to learn, you still have."

Did you not read my post, at all? Did I deny the validity of the "stalemate" on Geonosis, Count Makashi? No. I simply offered - and supported - the simple fact that there is nothing to indicate that Yoda went all out on Count Dooku. He only made an attempt to deal physical harm once throughout the initial salvos. That doesn't strike me as someone "going all out". If anything, it proved the point that Yoda wasn't to be taken lightly. Which is probably why Dooku abandoned the futility of the Force assaults and headed for the lightsaber.



I translate "to try one's best" in a duel is to try to kill the opponent. George Lucas confirms that the duel between Anakin and Dooku was a secret test, orchestrated by Sidious, as to see which one of the two was stronger. The result? Anakin walking out alive and Count Dooku lying headless on the floor. If Dooku didn't go "full out" it was due to his own hubris, which is a glaring weakness that he was foolish to not protect.

So, no, I don't see Yoda "trying his best", there.



No, Yoda did not say that he would "kill Dooku" rather than let him escape. If memory doesn't fail me, I believe he said that Dooku "must be captured". To capture someone is to take them prisoner, not kill them.



This is the poorest argument you've made. Are you attempting to imply that Dooku could have killed Yoda? I'd advise you to check your facts again. The Republic was crushing the CIS resistance on Geonosis, Mace was actually outside battling three dark Jedi - the battle in itself was a complete defeat for Dooku. He left because he wanted to live.

As for Yoda getting tired, it's Yoda. 900 years old, and his only means of battle is to draw heavily upon the Force to enhance his body. I have no doubt that it would leave him fatigued. Is there something you're trying to prove?



Mace has shatterpoint and Vaapad (the deadliest lightsaber form). Two advantages Dooku doesn't have. And the fac that it wasn't in an actual fight is irrelevent. Mace was in the position to kill Dooku effortlessly and yet he didn't because he still cared for him.



Yes, I am of the mind that - where he going full out - Yoda would dominate and defeat Dooku without having a heart attack in the process. Hell, Dooku was terrified of Sidious, Yoda's equal. What does that tell you?

Exactly. This should have not even been discussed. Yoda beats Dooku in every way, PERIOD.

I can see Malak take down Obi Wan and Revan take down Anakin.

Reasoning? Don't try and understand my reasoning!

But if Yoda was that much better and wanted to take him alive, he could easily disarm him, like Dooku disarmed Obi-Wan in AOTC. Yoda needed to stop Dooku, at that time the Jedi thought by stooping Dooku, the war would end, the Separatist would fall, Kenobi said something like this IF we catch him we can end this war, why wouldn't Yoda go full out on Dooku, he needed to stop him, to save millions of Innocent lives, if the war started.
He cared about Dooku, but that wouldn't stop him to do his duty, Kenobi loved Anakin the most and loke what he did to him, Yoda if no other choice would do the same, personal feelings cant get in the way.

And Dooku was told by Sidious not to kill Anakin, but he fought(Dooku) to the best of his abilities, he went full out and was still defeated. Yoda had to fought to the best of his abilities , to parry Dookus strikes, he even said Powerful you have become Dooku, the Dark side i sense in you.

When did he say Dooku must be captured and like you said Mace said he had an opportunity to kill him, but couldn't, probably because he didn't know how evil Dooku has become and Jedi just cant go kill people in cold blood from behind, not even a warning, but he didn't, that doesn't sound like capture to me.

I said Dooku had a chance to kill Yoda, when he was using the Force to prevent the pillar falling on Obi and Anakin, he could stab him from behind, when Yoda was so concatenated.

Mace has shatterpoint and Vaapad, so called the deadliest style, but so did Sora Bulq and Dooku toyed with him and Tholme together. And Dooku defeated Mace before, when he had Shatterpoint, but yea he didn't event Vaapad. And Makashi is best lightsaber to lightsaber style, Vaapad is the best overall.

Dooku was terrified of Sidious, but he didn't know how powerful he rely was, he overpowered him, like Yoda in ROTS novel, but Sidious would defeat Dooku easier then Yoda, because of offensive Force powers. Yoda barely caught Sidious lightning, Dooku would be overwhelmed.

And i am not denying, that Yoda would win, just not that easy, it would be a hard fight.

Vividly his mind went back to their last meeting, on Geonosis: swords drawn at last, and finally equal.
What a bittersweet moment-to see Yoda again, and be a match, or more than a match for him...

But Yoda would be prepared for that; it would never be so easy. Count Dooku prided himself on his ability to see
reality for what it really was. He opened the casement window.

Why would he say that, if it wasn't true, if Yoda easily defeated him he would say something like this- Them it, even with the Dark side, he easily defeated me, i still wasn't a match for him, i am a failure.
Then he would be angry, that he still couldn't contest with Yoda.

For the record, Yoda would win.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
But if Yoda was that much better and wanted to take him alive, he could easily disarm him, like Dooku disarmed Obi-Wan in AOTC. Yoda needed to stop Dooku, at that time the Jedi thought by stooping Dooku, the war would end, the Separatist would fall, Kenobi said something like this IF we catch him we can end this war, why wouldn't Yoda go full out on Dooku, he needed to stop him, to save millions of Innocent lives, if the war started.
He cared about Dooku, but that wouldn't stop him to do his duty, Kenobi loved Anakin the most and loke what he did to him, Yoda if no other choice would do the same, personal feelings cant get in the way.

And Dooku was told by Sidious not to kill Anakin, but he fought(Dooku) to the best of his abilities, he went full out and was still defeated. Yoda had to fought to the best of his abilities , to parry Dookus strikes, he even said Powerful you have become Dooku, the Dark side i sense in you.

When did he say Dooku must be captured and like you said Mace said he had an opportunity to kill him, but couldn't, probably because he didn't know how evil Dooku has become and Jedi just cant go kill people in cold blood from behind, not even a warning, but he didn't, that doesn't sound like capture to me.

I said Dooku had a chance to kill Yoda, when he was using the Force to prevent the pillar falling on Obi and Anakin, he could stab him from behind, when Yoda was so concatenated.

Mace has shatterpoint and Vaapad, so called the deadliest style, but so did Sora Bulq and Dooku toyed with him and Tholme together. And Dooku defeated Mace before, when he had Shatterpoint, but yea he didn't event Vaapad. And Makashi is best lightsaber to lightsaber style, Vaapad is the best overall.

Dooku was terrified of Sidious, but he didn't know how powerful he rely was, he overpowered him, like Yoda in ROTS novel, but Sidious would defeat Dooku easier then Yoda, because of offensive Force powers. Yoda barely caught Sidious lightning, Dooku would be overwhelmed.

And i am not denying, that Yoda would win, just not that easy, it would be a hard fight.

Vividly his mind went back to their last meeting, on Geonosis: swords drawn at last, and finally equal.
What a bittersweet moment-to see Yoda again, and be a match, or more than a match for him...

But Yoda would be prepared for that; it would never be so easy. Count Dooku prided himself on his ability to see
reality for what it really was. He opened the casement window.

Why would he say that, if it wasn't true, if Yoda easily defeated him he would say something like this- Them it, even with the Dark side, he easily defeated me, i still wasn't a match for him, i am a failure.
Then he would be angry, that he still couldn't contest with Yoda.

For the record, Yoda would win.


He couldn't have taken him down "that" easily, beacuse Dooku, though still less powerful by a ok large amount, was still powerful, AND he always had escape plans. For crying out loud, they fought for 30 seconds then he ran, Yoda cannot disarm someone that easily, besides, he really isn't all high on killing.
And personal feelings not getting in the way? Didn't Yoda choose to save his two friends instead of ending a whole WAR?


He said Dooku was powerful, but he is not as powerful as Yoda at all, he is NOT "nearly as powerful as Yoda."


Yeah, uh, Sora faked that fight, he says so in "Jedi, Mace Windu". He is in leagues with Dooku remember? That fight was a decoy...


Why wouldn't Dooku know how powerful Sidious is? He is his master and taught him his dark side techniques...


What do you need to hear? Dooku had a ****ing planet powering him up and even keeping Yoda buisy in the force, and still couldn't win. With the dark side boost it turned him from lesser than Mace Windu to any jedi's superior except for Yoda, and YET Yoda still won. Dooku won't stand a chance of winning on equal ground, it will be a fight, but not a really, really close one...


And yeah, I could see Vader standing up against Yoda better than Dooku. We have already debated Vader > Dooku, if you think otherwise then bring up the old thread or make a new one.

Though i am a fanboy of vader, how is vader going to keep up to yoda? in the force maybe but keep up in saber? i think vader would get cleaved in half

Keep up? Of course he can, he can fight Yoda for a while. Lose? Definetly. I'm not arguing Vader would beat Yoda, not nearly, but he would do at least as good as Dooku, seeing how we all agreed that Vader is better than him both saber and force wise...

Originally posted by Gideon
Yoda would dominate and defeat Dooku without having a heart attack in the process.
LOL!

No.

This is irrelevent. I've provided evidence to prove that Yoda still cared for Count Dooku and that - the entire time - his goal was never to kill him, but to bring him in alive. Those are two things that would prevent Yoda from "going full out" and attempting to kill Dooku.

As for Obi-Wan, he didn't know Dooku well enough, nor did he care for him, which is why he was willing to attack Count Dooku with the intent of killing him. What he declared doesn't speak for Yoda.



Poorly constructed. If Yoda really cared about defeating Count Dooku and the Separatist movement, he would have left Anakin and Obi-Wan to die, as is the Jedi way. And yet he didn't, and chose to allow Dooku to escape. Mace did the very same thing, and the reason was made absolutely clear: he still cared for his old friend.



This is another addition to the poor argument. Lucas said that the fight was a secret test, orchestrated by Sidious to see which of the two would end up being his apprentice. Since it is made clear he simply wants the "stronger" apprentice, it would be very foolish of Sidious to place restraints on Dooku of any variety. He didn't. And Dooku died.

As far as Yoda's quote is concerned, that is not an admission that he was fighting him to the best of his ability. It simply means that Dooku has become very powerful since the last time they had crossed paths.



Yoda told Mace during the skirmish on Geonosis that Dooku must be captured before he can "rally more systems to his cause". This was after Mace's botched attempt to make Dooku stand down, meaning that when Yoda arrived - he decided to capture instead of kill. There is no indication that Mace, prior to that, was bound by similar orders.



Yeah, and I said Dooku wisely didn't. The Republic forces were already close to the hangar; the Confederacy was getting crushed; Mace was outside, and he was probably very happy to walk away with his head attached to his shoulders. Had Dooku stayed, he would have been uberannihilated.



Sora Bulq =/= Mace Windu. "Vaapad mastered him" was the statement Mace gave regarding Bulq, implying that he didn't master the form. Mace is the highest master of it and the inventor. And curiously, when Dooku was confronted by Mace on Boz Pity, he fled. Curious.



An unsupported assertion. "Not that he would question the power of Darth Sidious. The dark secrets at his command", from Dark Rendezvous. Dooku was trained by Sidious in the dark arts, there's nothing to support that Dooku "didn't know how powerful he really was".

Quit with this BS reasoning.



Right. Yoda wouldn't trample all over Dooku, but he would dominate him without exhausting himself.



You're citing Dooku's own thoughts as a testimony to his power? Lmao. I suppose we should believe Anakin's furious, arrogant rants about how he is all powerful, then. This is poor reasoning and this is irrelevent. Dooku's own deluded mind makes him out to be Yoda's equal, because he is arrogant.

If you're going to argue this point, do it better.



Yup, he would. No chance of Dooku winning.

Count, read this, and you tell me that you honestly think Yoda couldn't waste Dooku if he really wanted to.


Dooku's eyes widened and he stepped back, turning to face Yoda directly. He brought his lightsaber up to his face, shut down the blade, then snapped it to the side in formal salute. "You have interfered with our plans for the last time."
A wave of Dooku's free hand sent a piece of machinery flying at the diminutive Jedi Master, seeming as if it would surely crush him.
But Yoda was ready, waving his own hand, Force-pushing the flying machinery harmlessly aside.
Dooku clutched up at the ceiling, breaking free great blocks that tumbled down at Yoda.
But small hands waved and the boulders dropped to the sides, bouncing across the floor all about the untouched Master Yoda.
Dooku gave a little growl and thrust forth his hand, loosing a line of blue lightning at the diminutive Master.
Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily.
"Powerful you have become, Dooku," Yoda admitted, and the Count grinned-but Yoda promptly took that grin away by adding, "The dark side I sense in you."
"I have become more powerful than any Jedi," Dooku countered. "Even you, my old Master!"
More lightning poured forth from Dooku's hand, but Yoda continued to catch it and turn it, and seemed to become even more settled in his defensive posture.
"Much to learn you still have," Yoda remarked.
Dooku disengaged the futile lightning assault. "It is obvious this contest will not be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsaber."
Yoda reverently drew out his lightsaber, its green blade humming to life.
Dooku gave a crisp salute, igniting his own red blade, but then, formalities over, he leapt at Yoda, a sudden and devastating thrust.
But one that never got close to hitting. With hardly a movement, Yoda turned the blade aside.
Dooku went into a wild flurry then, the likes of which he had not shown against Obi-Wan or Anakin, raining blows at the diminutive Master. But Yoda didn't even seem to move. He didn't step back or to the side, yet his subtle dodges and precision parries kept Dooku's blade slashing and stabbing harmlessly wide.
It went on and on for many moments, but eventually Dooku's flurry began to slow, and the Count, recognizing the Futility of this attempt to overwhelm, stepped back fast.
Not fast enough.
With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance. Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through.
Just as he was about to launch a counter, though, Yoda was gone, leaping high and turning a somersault to land right behind Dooku, in perfect balance, striking hard.
Dooku reversed his grip and stabbed out behind him, intercepting the blow. He let go of his weapon altogether, tossing it just a bit, and spun about, catching it before it had even disengaged from Yoda's blade.
With a growl of rage, Dooku reached more deeply into the Force, letting it flow through him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its power. His tempo increased suddenly and dramatically, three steps forward, two back, perfectly balanced all the while. His fighting style was one based on balance, on the back-and-forth charges, thrusts and sudden retreats, and now he came at Yoda with a series of cunning stabs, angled left and right.
Never could he strike low, though, for never did Yoda seem to be on the ground, leaping and spinning, flying all about, parrying each blow and offering cunning counters that had Dooku skipping backward desperately.
Dooku stabbed up high, turning the angle of his lightsaber in anticipation that Yoda would dodge left. But Yoda, as if in complete anticipation of the movement, veered neither left nor right, but rather, dropped to the ground. The Count had already retracted the missed thrust, and began a second stab, this time down low, but Yoda had anticipated that, too, and went right back up behind the stabbing blade.
A sudden stab by Yoda had Dooku quick-stepping back even more off-balance, for the first time, and then Yoda flew away, up and back.
The furious Dooku pursued, thrusting hard for Yoda's head. And in his rage when his stab missed yet again, he reverted to a slashing attack.
Yoda's green blade caught the blow, holding the red lightsaber at bay, locking the two in a contest of strength, physical and of the Force.
"Fought well, you have, my old Padawan," Yoda congratulated, and his lightsaber began to move out, just a bit, forcing Dooku back.
"The battle is far from over!" Dooku stubbornly argued. "This is just the beginning!" Reaching into the Force, he took hold of one of the huge cranes within the hangar and threw it down at Obi-Wan and Anakin.
"Anakin!" Obi-Wan cried. He grabbed at the plummeting crane with the Force, and Anakin, startled awake, did so, as well. Even working together, they hadn't the strength left to stop its crushing descent.
But Yoda did.
Yoda grabbed the crane and held it fast, but in doing so, he had to release Dooku. The Count wasted no time, sprinting away, leaping up the ramp to his sail ship. As Yoda began to move the fallen crane harmlessly aside, the sail ship's engine roared to life, and all three Jedi watched helplessly as Count Dooku blasted away.

He would have won(Yoda), but not easily, Dooku is a match for him, but yes if he stayed longer in the hangar he would have lose.

And the last part contradicts the movies, Obi and Anakin never used the Force, to stop the crane, from falling.

Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily.
If he was so much better, it would say he caught it effortlessly.
And if Yoda is so much better, then it takes the achievement away from him, Lucas probably wanted, to aper that Yoda defeated powerful opponent.

Yoda being slightly more powerful than a strong opponent is more impressive than him being significantly more powerful than a strong opponent?

I don't see your reasoning...

It is clear that Yoda has a significant advantage, due to Dooku becoming frustrated and comments like "Much to learn you still have."

The only thing Dooku has for him is: "Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily. " But that is followed afterwords by "but Yoda continued to catch it and turn it, and seemed to become even more settled in his defensive posture," and "Dooku disengaged the futile lightning assault."

It is also clear that Yoda can run circles around Dooku in saber combat, even when we know that Dooku knows Yoda's lightsaber form like the back of his hand.

Because of his overwhelming speed.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
It is also clear that Yoda can run circles around Dooku in saber combat, even when we know that Dooku knows Yoda's lightsaber form like the back of his hand.
Yoda could run circles around Dooku because the Saber Form he used against Dooku was highly acrobatic in nature and it was probably Form IV. Form IV allows a Jedi to run, jump and spin in phenomenal ways by using the Force and this is what Yoda actually did.

Oiu-Gon used the same form and he couldn't do the same thing as Yoda, Dooku said that Ataru is better for small people like Yoda, not for humans.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Because of his overwhelming speed.

Please. Count Dooku has held much disdain for any lightsaber form that isn't his. In the novelization, he refers to Ataru "with its ridiculous acrobatics" and called Anakin (who used it temporarily) "a spastic hawk-bat".

And yet Yoda was able to completely dominate their fight. Yoda > Dooku (and Dooku has a supposedly "superior" form).

Because Yoda is better then Dooku and it more depends on a user of the form, then actual form.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Oiu-Gon used the same form and he couldn't do the same thing as Yoda, Dooku said that Ataru is better for small people like Yoda, not for humans.
It is believed that Qui-Gon was at a disadvantage against Maul due to small moving space around him in that reactor core. Ataru Combat style works best in regions where more space for movement is available. The lack of sufficient space might have worked against Qui-Gon in his fight against Maul. And Maul also was young and possibly physically stronger then Qui-Gon.

Maul had a double bladed lightsaber, he needed more space, Maul was just better then Qui-Gon. And when they fought on those bridges and before in the hangar, their wose a lot of rome then.

Source for that other than Wookiee?

Because Maul seems to use much more acrobatics and has a much larger weapon.


"Kenobi's Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku's own Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Atar form, with its ridiculous acrobatics."

But did Qui-Gon perform any in the fight. No.

Acrobatics? Yeah, he did alot of jumping and spinning. Besides, it's better to judge facts than actors.

I meant that he dint jump around and doing flips like Yoda, he cant do that.

Not like Yoda, but he does use acrobats....

Maul was just better, then Qui-Gon, end of story.

Pretty much, though I'd say that Qui-Gon was technically better than Maul, he just didn't have the same kind of speed and stamina, and overall skill.

It takes extreme skill and technique to wield double blades lightsaber.

It was specifically stated that Maul was a better weapon user than Qui-Gon in the TPM novel...

Originally posted by allfg
Pretty much, though I'd say that Qui-Gon was technically better than Maul, he just didn't have the same kind of speed and stamina, and overall skill.

Wrong

What part, that Maul is better, or Oui-Gon was technically better?

It's during the ending battle, at the part with Qui-Gon's thoughts I believe. Anyway, Maul was just better....

I agree.

Qui Gon is inferior to Maul as the novelization states. So is obiwan

We all agree.

team two

In a lightsaber match yea, but in overall fight, team 1wins.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
In a lightsaber match yea, but in overall fight, team 1wins.

In an overall fight, I still believe team two wins.

Obi and Anakin don't have as good Force powers, it all depends how Malak and Revan approach the fight.