Rap...music?

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EPIIIBITES
Some people say rap isn't real music. I remember hearing Jack White from the White Stripes start ripping into rap, saying there's no musicality to it. What the heck is he talking about?

Sure, there might not be a lot of chord progressions or what not, but there isn't in a lot of songs...so where do you draw the line?

Alpha Centauri
A) It's called hip hop, not rap. Rap is what MCs in hip hop do, it's not a genre. Rock isn't called "Sing" is it? No.

B) I see no reason why anyone'd call it anything other than "real" music. It's real, it exists. Most of it is just less artistic than other forms.

-AC

tabby999
yep, the music might be more simplistic then other styles, but if you look at 50 Cent and guys like that, then ofcourse you'll only see the basic, crappy side of hip hop. Its like forming an opinion of rock after only listening to Simple Plan and Nickelback

-hh-
pretty much what AC and tabby said.

EPIIIBITES
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
A) It's called hip hop, not rap. Rap is what MCs in hip hop do, it's not a genre. Rock isn't called "Sing" is it? No.
laughing Yeah you're right. It's just that Jack White said "rap music". Hip Hop then...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Most of it is just less artistic than other forms.
I don't think so. Musically, there's tons of creativity going on with beats, samples (yes...samples can be used creatively even though they're still samples), and effects...not to mention synths and electronic elements, as well as what the more well-up groups like The Roots do, using instruments.

...And when it comes to just the rapping itself , there's a certain genius to it that can't be found in other music...just like there's a certain genius to opera singing that can't be found in anything but opera.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I don't think so. Musically, there's tons of creativity going on with beats, samples (yes...samples can be used creatively even though they're samples), and effects...

...And when it comes to just the rapping itself , there's a certain genius to it that can't be found in other music...just like there's a certain genius to opera singing that can't be found in anything but opera.

I said most, not all.

Lyrical geniuses in hip hop are actually few and far between, if you compare the actual number of great lyricists, with overall hip hop lyricists. There are quite a few great and brilliant lyricists, but not many lyrical geniuses. You don't need to be a genius, though.

I wouldn't suggest for a second that anything 50 Cent does is genius.

-AC

EPIIIBITES
I think what you're partly getting at is any music that "can" be easy to make or immitate (techno, hip hop) can easily be made badly. And you could probably fake being a bad rapper easier than you can fake being a bad vocalist.

Still though, I think rap gets too much flak cause it sounds simple.

African drum music is simple...is it not creative? Is it not considered musical?

Alpha Centauri
It's hip hop, not rap.

There's a difference between simple music made with instruments and an idiot rhyming frivolously over some dodgy computer-made beat, with the sole, soulless intention of earning cash.

-AC

The Core
I refuse to call the majority of today's "Hip Hop".."Hip Hop", because it's not. The term's been bastardized, the line has been blurred.

Hip Hop is underground and back in the day. Above it, and now, is nothing more than pop music.

It's still music, regardless, though.

Tengu
well, i woudln't necessarily venture to say that its all geared toward sending some twisted message out to kids, which is where the genre is being whored out too. I don't fault lil Jon or I guess D4L for making their music, its just club music, shit to dance to. so obviously there is no effort needed in their music, since your dancing to it. Have you ever taken to time to listen to the words of an acual club song.....jeez laughing out loud
I guess the real problem would come from the ones who market and promote that stuff, and intern give the misinterpretation that that is real Hip-Hop, but then again how can you whole heartedly define the genre past its 4 elements?

The Core
"Rap" is just an ugly word. KRS One once said "Rap is something you do, Hip Hop is something you live". That said, "rapping" about your life still isn't Hip Hop.

I understand that Hip Hop has been redefined, even in the past decade, and that it's more lenient than ever. Whereas it used to be about having a positive message, now it's just who can make the most creative rhymes. Actual rap music is marketed as Hip Hop, as if to suggest there are ties. If you go retrospective in labeling genres, is NWA "Hip Hop"? ****, no. There's no difference between the lyrical content of NWA and The Game, who's regarded as a "Hip Hop" artist.

It really pisses me off that, like I said, there's this forced distortion that's come upon the genre. I grew up on this shit..it's in my blood.

True Hip Hop died with Biggie, which was 10 years ago this past week.

EPIIIBITES

The Core
I don't think the actual act of "rapping" is music, it's poetry, so it's an artform. The background, of course that's music, synthetic or natural. I didn't mean to get so carried away, and off topic.

EPIIIBITES
There's a difference between most poetry and most rap though. There's more musicality to rap in how it's read out than with poetry...and this is what I mean by the grey area...because a lot of rappers hit certain notes or a pitch when they read out the rap...poets don't really do that.

Of course there's intentional rhyming in poetry, and they make a point of putting emphasis on certain things when they read it out, but the emphasis isn't as much on what pitch or notes the words will fall on...it's more or less what's already visible on paper (the visible rhyming of the words...as well as other things like punctuation and form).

Rap though is more musical than that. You might have a rapper yell something out in the verse, but also sing some lines in the chorus...so what of those is music then? Some of it? All of it?

Well, as far as I see, it's a song...it's a piece of art using instrumentation to make sounds...And yes, the mouth can be used as an instrument...that's what I showed with the whole drumming...to beat-box...to rapping thing. I mean, most musicians consider it an instrument when people sing, so why couldn't it be an instrument when people rap (and hit certain tones and pitches)? That's the difference with poety, which doesn't really use the mouth as an instrument per se.

...and really, how do we know the first form of music might not very well have been some guy beat-boxing or scatting or something?

EPIIIBITES
Take "So Whatcha Want" by the Beasties. There's no poem I've hear that's read out like that...simply because what they're doing when they're rapping is being musical.
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
...and really, how do we know the first form of music might not very well have been some guy beat-boxing or scatting or something?
Scratch that "scatting" part...cause again, most people would say that's musical...and probably say beat-boxing isn't. But maybe that's where it all started...who knows?

Alpha Centauri

EPIIIBITES
As far as I've always known, rap is a form of singing...hip hop is a style of music that incorporates rap...and the term "rap music" is what white execs in suits simply address as hip hop, just because most of it has rapping in it.

Is that right?

Alpha Centauri
Rapping is what hip hop MCs do. It could be considered the act of rhyming to music in the particular style that is seen in hip hop.

It's not a genre, it's an act. A "rap" is what an MC performs in a song.

The genre is called hip hop.

-AC

Solo
I thought Jack White loves Mos Def, and vice versa?

Alpha Centauri
There isn't much musicality in hip hop with regards to musicianship. Hardly any.

So he's right in that sense. Hip hop has never been about being a great musician in terms of instruments, but it doesn't change the fact that hardly any of them are.

-AC

EPIIIBITES

The Core
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Rapping is what hip hop MCs do. It could be considered the act of rhyming to music in the particular style that is seen in hip hop.

It's not a genre, it's an act. A "rap" is what an MC performs in a song.

The genre is called hip hop.

-AC

Hip Hop is a cultural movement that has been bastarzdized into a music genre. If a rap is what an MC performs in a song, how isn't it a label for their music as well?

With that logic, what is a "hip hop"?

Alpha Centauri

EPIIIBITES
?

...I mean, what do you think they'd say to your remark about not having musicality?

And as for hip-hop, I see it as much a way of life as a genre of music (as it's come to be known), that's why I suggested rap is incorported into hip hop...but I also think rap is musical on its own.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
but I also think rap is musical on its own.

But it's not.

This is where you get confused. It's not. It's hip hop, that's what the genre's called.

-AC

-hh-
"rap is something you do, hip hop is something you live"- KRS 1

summed it up pretty well.

EPIIIBITES
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's hip hop, that's what the genre's called.

-AC
Yes I know that. I've said that already twice. And I've said rap is icorporated into hip hop. But I'm looking at rap...on its own...I think it's as musical as something like scatting is. If it's in a song, it's musical.

And there's also rapping in songs that aren't hip hop as well. There's rapping in techno, or by RHCP. It's just an alternative form of being musical sometimes for bands or artists who usually don't use it and might have singing instead or something.

This thread should be: "hip-hop...music?"...or rather "hip-hop...musical?" But I'm also looking at the musicality of rap itself.


So why exactly wouldn't you say hip-hop has a lot of musicality then?

-hh-
here's a different style of rapping

P.O.S.- Kidney Thief

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3omno__k0vY

P.O.S.- Meth-head vs Mcnugget

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3b5DpH-RcpA (not the actual music video)

EPIIIBITES
Yeah...that's not real music...there's no musicality there...because..."where's the band?"

...right?



...and that second one. Where's the singing? It's even less musical than the first.

...right?

-hh-
different styles of rapping

Percee P- Throwback Rap Attack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ_UOiV8okg

Quasimoto- Bullyshit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q5Bsm4uliY

MF Doom feat Kurious- ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zISHnyg9iE

Verbal Threat- Reality Check
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCSIqukWncQ

-hh-
i'm just saying their are different styles in hip hop. it isn't all the same.

EPIIIBITES
Of course it isn't.

And I was joking above.

-hh-
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Of course it isn't.

And I was joking above. oh stick out tongue

The Core
It really irritates me that rappers will be labeled Hip Hop artists, even when their "music" pretty much defines all original Hip Hop logic.

Hopefully people see where I am coming from when I refuse to acknowledge them as Hip Hop artists. I mean, by that token, NWA is Hip Hop....and it's clearly not. It honestly shouldn't be all or nothing, strictly based on a verbal delivery.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Yes I know that. I've said that already twice. And I've said rap is icorporated into hip hop. But I'm looking at rap...on its own...I think it's as musical as something like scatting is. If it's in a song, it's musical.

RAPPING is an act that's a part of hip hop, yes.

It is a musical thing, like singing is.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
And there's also rapping in songs that aren't hip hop as well. There's rapping in techno, or by RHCP. It's just an alternative form of being musical sometimes for bands or artists who usually don't use it and might have singing instead or something.

It's an alternative vocal style, yes. It's just the dominent and prominent style in hip hop.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
This thread should be: "hip-hop...music?"...or rather "hip-hop...musical?" But I'm also looking at the musicality of rap itself.

You mean the musicality of RAPPING, not rap. Stop saying it wrongly.

Rapping is a musical act, like singing. However, when people say there's no musicality, they often mean musicianship, as in instrumental talent.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
So why exactly wouldn't you say hip-hop has a lot of musicality then?

I don't know, why wouldn't I? I've said it doesn't have a lot of musicianship in terms of instrumental talent.

-AC

EPIIIBITES
Rapping is in hip hop, but it's also in other music too. Rapping is just a form of singing isn't it?...like scatting is in Jazz, or screaming is in screamo.

The Core
There are no notes in Hip Hop. It's a monotone delivery.

Alpha Centauri
What do you mean there aren't notes in hip hop? Of course it's not monotone.

What are you on about?

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Rapping is in hip hop, but it's also in other music too. Rapping is just a form of singing isn't it?...like scatting is in Jazz, or screaming is in screamo.

A) No such thing as screamo. Stupid label, doesn't deserve any recognition. It's made up by stupid journalists and kids.

B) Yes, so stop calling it rap. It's rapping, like singING.

-AC

-hh-
off topic:

i just listened to this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqLakpWd-SI

wow. i dont know who had the best verse. it was all great.

The Core
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
What do you mean there aren't notes in hip hop? Of course it's not monotone.

What are you on about?


50 Cent. The Game. RUN DMC. Treach. Ghostface. KRS-ONE. You name it. They aren't hitting high notes or showing off like some opera tenor. They're rhyming words as if they were speaking. Putting emphasis on a slang term or name isn't the same as singing, which is my defying rapping being the same as singing.

-hh-
Originally posted by The Core
50 Cent. The Game. RUN DMC. Treach. Ghostface. KRS-ONE. You name it. They aren't hitting high notes or showing off like some opera tenor. They're rhyming words as if they were speaking. Putting emphasis on a slang term or name isn't the same as singing, which is my defying rapping being the same as singing. what about Mos Def? he sings in his songs. same with P.O.S., Tonedeff, Pharoahe Monch, Cee-Lo etc...

The Core
I'm speaking in generalities, hence all the mainstream "Hip Hop" artists. If there are "rappers" that sing, then they're more liable to be verifiable musicians.

EPIIIBITES
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
B) Yes, so stop calling it rap. It's rapping, like singING.
Yeah. Thanks for being patient. Rapping is like singing then...and that's why I think it has musicality, because someone's voice is basically an instrument.

Some people might not think so off the bat, but if you add effects on it like delay and flanger...well, then maybe it's more like an instrument. And if you have it going through a vocoder, well, even more so, right?

I'm saying the voice is an instrument, so rap-PING (coming from someone's voice) has as much musicality as any other instrument...that's what I'm saying.

EPIIIBITES
...and just read some of the last posts, and it seems people are doing what I'm saying is going into "iffy" areas.

My example of the Beastie Boys' "So Watcha Want" is perfect in showing how there's that in between of hitting notes (basically singing), and just reading out lyrics. But the song wouldn't be as effective if they just read out words...there's a tone or pitch they're hitting to get the sound they want musically.

As far as 50, he's totally all over the place with his intonation, pitch...he's very musical. He even sings a lot as well. But he can also just be very dry and flat on purpose when he delivers some of his lyrics, which is cool.

The Core
Show me some sheet music for these "rappers", and then maybe I'll consider them singers.

Until then, they are two totally seperate ways to execute vocals musically.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by The Core
50 Cent. The Game. RUN DMC. Treach. Ghostface. KRS-ONE. You name it. They aren't hitting high notes or showing off like some opera tenor. They're rhyming words as if they were speaking. Putting emphasis on a slang term or name isn't the same as singing, which is my defying rapping being the same as singing.

I'm not saying it's the same as singing. I'm saying they are both acts. I was more picking at the way he's using the actual word, not what it means.

To say there aren't notes is one thing, to say rapping is monotone is just ridiculous.

-AC

EPIIIBITES
Originally posted by The Core
Show me some sheet music for these "rappers", and then maybe I'll consider them singers.

Until then, they are two totally seperate ways to execute vocals musically. Yes they are "seperate ways to execute vocals musically"...they're both very musical, very creative, and have a lot of musicality to them. And an opera singer can't do what a rapper does as good as they do, and vice-versa.

And the fact that when you hear "So Watcha Want" live and they're hitting more or less the same notes, tones, whatever, and it sounds like the original recording...implies they're being musical about it. They could make sheet music if they really wanted to I guess, because there's a certain way the song goes.

Kinda like there's a certain way the vocals in Ministry's "Jesus Built My Hotrod" go. I doubt there's sheet music for that either...but it's basically a guy going "meh-meh-me me meh-meh-meh-meh". Still musical though, and certain notes are being hit. It's still singing...as is screaming in screamo (pardon the term), or wailing in african tribal music.

What isn't really musical is...talking.

And then poetry lies a bit closer to being musical...but as I said before, it's more about the rhyme and cadence of what's already on the page, and less about delivering it by hitting certain notes, tones and pitches...which is definitely what a lot of rap-PING is.

The Core
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm not saying it's the same as singing. I'm saying they are both acts. I was more picking at the way he's using the actual word, not what it means.

To say there aren't notes is one thing, to say rapping is monotone is just ridiculous.

-AC

There's a lot in a common (or mainstream) rapper's delivery that's monotone. I just think it's silly to compare rappers to singers. They're on two totally different levels. Just because Fitty shows a little inflection doesn't mean he's able to hold notes, nail stanzas, and all that jazz.

..and I've heard Mos Def's "Travelin' Man", so I know where Hh is comin' from, but it's not like it's the body of the work.

EPIIIBITES
Fifty can in fact hold notes though. He does it...I doubt he can do it very well, or even for very long, and I'm not saying he's Sinatra or anything. What he does though overall in his vocals has as much musicality to it as what Michael Buble does.

Buble would fail miserably if he tried to do what Fifty does, as would Fifty fail miserably if he tried to do what Buble does. But people look at Buble's singing and say, "oh that's real music", because they think it has more musicality to it. I don't get that.

I've explained what I think musicality can be...it's pretty open. And when we're talking about rapping, Biggie is the best example I can think of as having incredible musicality in his vocals alone...more than a lot of other non-hip-hop genre singers do.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by The Core
There's a lot in a common (or mainstream) rapper's delivery that's monotone. I just think it's silly to compare rappers to singers. They're on two totally different levels. Just because Fitty shows a little inflection doesn't mean he's able to hold notes, nail stanzas, and all that jazz.

..and I've heard Mos Def's "Travelin' Man", so I know where Hh is comin' from, but it's not like it's the body of the work.

Who's comparing rappers to singers? I'm simply saying that rappers are people and their vocal technique is called rapping. Like singers have a vocal technique called singing.

Nobody truly is monotonous.

-AC

Tengu
Originally posted by The Core
Show me some sheet music for these "rappers", and then maybe I'll consider them singers.

Until then, they are two totally seperate ways to execute vocals musically.
K-os
Phonte of Little Brother
bone thugz n harmony
booty brown of pharcyde
Beck
Outkast


they all sing and rap in their music


singing and rapping are different yes, but they themselves are not so polarized that they define whole genres by a 1 or the other concept. Hence why some artitst prefer to use both as opposed to just rapping, using your logic is Beck a rapper or a singer?

The Core
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Who's comparing rappers to singers?

EPIII. I was never implying you were.

Originally posted by Tengu


singing and rapping are different yes, but they themselves are not so polarized that they define whole genres by a 1 or the other concept. Hence why some artitst prefer to use both as opposed to just rapping, using your logic is Beck a rapper or a singer?

They're not singers by trade, and I said before, using my Mos Def reference, it's not the body of their work.

Cowboy Troy is a country singer, and he raps his lyrics. He's just an artist, but I'm not about to extend that courtesy to everyone just because they change up their signature style on a whim.

Tengu
Then whats the body of Beck's work or Bone thugz n Harmony?
under what authority or merit can you judge a muscians trade? if beck sings, and wants to be indentified as a rapper, despite the majority of his content being of a mix betwen rapping and singing, then he himself is what he chooses. your polarizing 2 forms of expressions that CAN be used insde of one genre. It isnt just one or the other.

manorastroman
aside from busdriver, nwa, dre, kanye, and biggie, i really couldn't care less.

calling hip-hop rap isn't nearly the same thing as calling rock "sing". for one, hip hop is a term of certain respect. i'd feel funny about calling the freaking yin-yang twins hip-hop. for two, if you refer to 50 as "rap", generally people will know what you're saying. if you call green day "sing", people will have no ****ing idea what you're on about.

EPIIIBITES
I think he was just making a point.

Obviously he knows people wouldn't know what he's talking about if he said "sing" to describe a genre.

Becasue it's better to use the word "rap" to describe the act of doing it (as a verb...or noun), he's showing how ridiculous it is if you took another verb you use to describe something you do (like "sing"wink and make it a common noun as well to define a genre.

...maybe you get that.


But I also know what you yourself mean about "hip hop" being a term of respect...and referring to music by punk MCs who just wanna be "rap stars", as "rap".

manorastroman
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I think he was just making a point. I almost made the same observation, until I realized he had already done it.

He's just making a direct comparison between the way the word can be misused both practically and gramatically, and how it's being misused as a common noun to describe a genre.

Obviously he knows people wouldn't know what he's talking about if he said "sing" to describe a genre.

Becasue it's better to use the word "rap" to describe the act of doing it (as a verb...or noun), he's showing how ridiculous it is if you took another verb you use to describe something you do (like "sing"wink and make it a common noun as well to define a genre.

i know. this explanation is quite unnecessary. i was also "making a point". being: nobody ****ing cares.

EPIIIBITES
Originally posted by manorastroman
i was also "making a point".
K...thought you might've been. cool

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by manorastroman
aside from busdriver, nwa, dre, kanye, and biggie, i really couldn't care less.

calling hip-hop rap isn't nearly the same thing as calling rock "sing". for one, hip hop is a term of certain respect. i'd feel funny about calling the freaking yin-yang twins hip-hop. for two, if you refer to 50 as "rap", generally people will know what you're saying. if you call green day "sing", people will have no ****ing idea what you're on about.

People would also call Cannibal Ox "rap". It's hip hop. Bastardised hip hop or not, it's hip hop. Britney Spears is pop, Michael Jackson is pop. Bastardised, commercialised bs she may be, she's still a pop artist.

You not liking The Yin-Yang Twins being hip hop just shows your insecurity. They are hip hop, but that doesn't mean by calling them that, you are failing to distinguish them in your own mind. You're simply thinking of other people, I don't. I couldn't give a crap whether people know what I'm on about or not, because I know. In any case, smart people who know their stuff usually can grasp it.

Calling a genre based after the most prominent act involved (Rap/Rapping) is precisely like calling rock, which features real singer, sing/singing.

-AC

The Core
Originally posted by Tengu
Then whats the body of Beck's work or Bone thugz n Harmony?
under what authority or merit can you judge a muscians trade? if beck sings, and wants to be indentified as a rapper, despite the majority of his content being of a mix betwen rapping and singing, then he himself is what he chooses. your polarizing 2 forms of expressions that CAN be used insde of one genre. It isnt just one or the other.

Bone are rappers, plain and simple. "Crossroads" doesn't make them singers. Beck cannot be defined, and shouldn't even if he's got a rap style delivery, he's still an "alternative" artist. He can call himself whatever he wants, but like "Hip Hop", and the misuse of that term, we'll throw whatever we want on him and call it a day.

The Core
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

You not liking The Yin-Yang Twins being hip hop just shows your insecurity. They are hip hop, but that doesn't mean by calling them that, you are failing to distinguish them in your own mind. You're simply thinking of other people, I don't. I couldn't give a crap whether people know what I'm on about or not, because I know. In any case, smart people who know their stuff usually can grasp it.

..in a nutshell, the exact reason why I don't like publically referring to all rappers as "Hip Hop". It's like calling Limp Bizkit "metal".

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by The Core
..in a nutshell, the exact reason why I don't like publically referring to all rappers as "Hip Hop". It's like calling Limp Bizkit "metal".

"Real", credible, artistically worthwhile hip hop they may not be, but they are hip hop. Just as Britney Spears is pop, and Michael Jackson is pop.

Bizkit were a nu-metal band, a shit one, but one nonetheless.

It doesn't affect the metal bands, rock bands, pop artists or hip hop artists I do like, just because there's shit in the genre. I have the ability to distinguish. If you don't, that's your own deal.

-AC

The Core
I absolutely do, and I thought that was pretty evident, which is my point. I want others to know that I know what I am talking about, because it matters to me in debates like this.

Alpha Centauri
I know that I know what I'm talking about.

Having that kind of streamlined approach helps narrow down the people you deal with in many cases, because the only ones who'll extensively reply are the ones who were smart enough not to need things spelled out.

First off, I don't consider Limp Bizkit "metal" in the way Metallica are metal, but Bullet for My Valentine are very much a metal band. As shit and trite as they are, they're a metal band because they play in the way a metal band plays, and make metal music.

They just adhere to a very generic template, just like 50 Cent does, or better example, The Game. He adheres to the very thin template laid down by N.W.A etc. He's adhering just enough to hip hop's criteria to still be hip hop. "Real", credible or distinguished? No. He's no Cannibal Ox, MF Doom, KRS One, Kool Keith etc. Those are representing hip hop as it was intended; Genuine expression without it being a fad, having fun or enjoying yourself. He is, however, still part of the genre.

The reason I say this is because outside of the area in which he IS just a pop artist who raps, he is still making mixtapes that are very much closer (Though NO more credible) to what would be considered hip hop music. Cassidy started doing songs with R. Kelly, that isn't hip hop. It's pop music. However, when he went back to do mixtapes etc, they were hip hop. Hip hop I dislike, sure, but still technically hip hop. Hip hop that isn't a good representative, but still hip hop.

If people think 50 Cent and G-Unit are all there is, then I pity them, but that's THEIR problem, not mine. I don't need to go around saying "They aren't hip hop!" in some over-exaggerated reply. I say "They aren't true hip hop.", because they're not.

-AC

pcp
You argument seems to suggest that every band/artist should have it's own genre, but as you said earlier 'Screamo' is a ridiculous one made by kids (who are the ones who listen to it so who cares). Your argument is riddled with hypocrisy

Alpha Centauri
My argument isn't riddled with hypocricy.

-AC

chillmeistergen
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
My argument isn't riddled with hypocricy.

-AC

What a brilliant comeback. It really is Alpha, you seem so desperate to prove people wrong and argue, that you'll go against what you've said already to do it.

The Core
Originally posted by pcp
You argument seems to suggest that every band/artist should have it's own genre, but as you said earlier 'Screamo' is a ridiculous one made by kids (who are the ones who listen to it so who cares). Your argument is riddled with hypocrisy

I never gathered that.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by chillmeistergen
What a brilliant comeback. It really is Alpha, you seem so desperate to prove people wrong and argue, that you'll go against what you've said already to do it.

I'll be waiting on any proof that it was riddled with hypocricy. I never suggested every band and artist should have their own genre, that's exactly what I stand against.

Until then, please get off me. I appreciate the obsession...well...actually I don't.

-AC

chillmeistergen
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'll be waiting on any proof that it was riddled with hypocricy. I never suggested every band and artist should have their own genre, that's exactly what I stand against.

Until then, please get off me. I appreciate the obsession...well...actually I don't.

-AC

I'm not at all obsessed with you, I just think you're an arrogant, patronising knob. You seem to want to piss everyone off by disagreeing with everything and anything people say. In real life you're probably a geeky, anime watching, non drinking sociopath.

Legendary Thor
Well i im not saying its not music but if anyone says that rapping is singing he woud be very wrong.

Deathblow
Who the hell would say that anyway? That's like pointing at something that is clearly a dog, and calling it a cat. Rapping is an entirely different form of vocal delivery, it's nothing to do with singing.

Legendary Thor
Originally posted by Deathblow
Who the hell would say that anyway? That's like pointing at something that is clearly a dog, and calling it a cat. Rapping is an entirely different form of vocal delivery, it's nothing to do with singing.
Exacly but some people think thats its singing mad

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by chillmeistergen
I'm not at all obsessed with you, I just think you're an arrogant, patronising knob. You seem to want to piss everyone off by disagreeing with everything and anything people say. In real life you're probably a geeky, anime watching, non drinking sociopath.

I love that retort; "In real life you're probably...", because what does it imply or achieve?

If I was a geeky, non-drinking sociopath in real life, that would mean I'm different to how I am on KMC, which would be the side that you deal with. Why would my real life persona, if it were any different, have any bearing on me, in this place, had I chosen to be different?

You're not obsessed with me yet you maintain such a vicious, agitated view of me. A view that you've clearly spent time thinking about, so I'm obviously on your mind. I'm flattered, but I suggest you move on.

-AC

Quiero Mota
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
A) It's called hip hop, not rap. Rap is what MCs in hip hop do, it's not a genre. Rock isn't called "Sing" is it? No.


The terms "hip-hop" and "rap" are interchangable when it comes to genre. When someone says "I like rap" or "I'm listening to rap" you know exactly what they mean. The same can't be said for the word "sing". I have no idea why you're such a big stickler about that.

Alpha Centauri
Whether or not you know what they're on about or not doesn't change the fact that it is precisely like calling rock, sing.

You're naming a genre based on the vocal act most prominent within it. Just because it's accepted doesn't make it correct.

-AC

manorastroman
but by definition, it does make it acceptable. so relax. nobody is confused by your position, just confounded by your confrontational style.

Alpha Centauri
Clearly there is confusion, because Quiero doesn't get my point, and you think I'm anything BUT relaxed. No need to make that assumption.

I never denied it was accepted or acceptable, I just said that it was dumb.

-AC

chillmeistergen
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I love that retort; "In real life you're probably...", because what does it imply or achieve?

If I was a geeky, non-drinking sociopath in real life, that would mean I'm different to how I am on KMC, which would be the side that you deal with. Why would my real life persona, if it were any different, have any bearing on me, in this place, had I chosen to be different?

You're not obsessed with me yet you maintain such a vicious, agitated view of me. A view that you've clearly spent time thinking about, so I'm obviously on your mind. I'm flattered, but I suggest you move on.

-AC

Right yeah that may not be the best of retorts, I just don't understand why you have to constantly argue. Everyone has their own opinion opinion which I appreciate just as much as the next lad, but yours seems to be in opposition to virtually everything. Just chill out a bit. The only real time i spent on the response was the offense to put on the end, settled on sociopath in the end.

Alpha Centauri
I didn't come here to chat, it's not a chat room, it's a discussion board. I discuss. You dislike how I discuss, this is of no concern to me.

I don't oppose everything, I just happen to disagree on a lot or voice my opinion a lot. It's why I'm here. Don't like it? Leave.

And please don't use the tired old "chill out" routine and be serious about it. You're more agitated than I am, I'm fine, you're the one in a twist. Just drop it and move on.

-AC

Quiero Mota
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Whether or not you know what they're on about or not doesn't change the fact that it is precisely like calling rock, sing.


It's not precisely like calling rock "sing". A lot of music genres revolve around singing: rock, country, opera, R&B etc. But on the other hand, how many genres are there that are built around rapping?? Exactly.

To say "I like sing" would confuse people, because they would assume the person has grammar problems and that they were trying to say "I like singing". The same doesn't happen when some one says "I like rap". Frankly, I call hip-hop rap, and have been my whole life. Its never lead to confusion once.

It's not the correct name of the genre, but its unofficiall universally understood alternative name. You've been to the United States right? You should know that.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Clearly there is confusion, because Quiero doesn't get my point

Yes I do.

chillmeistergen
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I didn't come here to chat, it's not a chat room, it's a discussion board. I discuss. You dislike how I discuss, this is of no concern to me.

I don't oppose everything, I just happen to disagree on a lot or voice my opinion a lot. It's why I'm here. Don't like it? Leave.

And please don't use the tired old "chill out" routine and be serious about it. You're more agitated than I am, I'm fine, you're the one in a twist. Just drop it and move on.

-AC

Actually I've changed my mind the thing that really annoys me about you is the way you sign everything you post. It's like you think you're an executive or something and that you can lord it above everyone.

Quiero Mota
Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Actually I've changed my mind the thing that really annoys me about you is the way you sign everything you post. It's like you think you're an executive or something and that you can lord it above everyone.

laughing out loud Esta guey! This guy is something else.

Of all the things about an internet poster that could annoy you, its that?

Tengu
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
It's not precisely like calling rock "sing". A lot of music genres revolve around singing: rock, country, opera, R&B etc. But on the other hand, how many genres are there that are built around rapping?? Exactly.

To say "I like sing" would confuse people, because they would assume the person has grammar problems and that they were trying to say "I like singing". The same doesn't happen when some one says "I like rap". Frankly, I call hip-hop rap, and have been my whole life. Its never lead to confusion once.

It's not the correct name of the genre, but its unofficiall universally understood alternative name. You've been to the United States right? You should know that.

yes and while it is widely accepted, that dosen't mean its right.

Aristole seemed to think the earth was at the center of the universe and everybody believed him for the longest time, were they right? no

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Actually I've changed my mind the thing that really annoys me about you is the way you sign everything you post. It's like you think you're an executive or something and that you can lord it above everyone.

Oh, shut up for crying out loud. You whiney little idiot.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
It's not precisely like calling rock "sing". A lot of music genres revolve around singing: rock, country, opera, R&B etc. But on the other hand, how many genres are there that are built around rapping?? Exactly.

No, you don't get my point. Calling any genre with singing in it, after the act involved, would be stupid. Just because RAP is accepted and not as prolific, doesn't mean it's correct.

It's precisely like calling any genre with singing in it, then, sing. Because you're naming hip hop after an act involved.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
To say "I like sing" would confuse people, because they would assume the person has grammar problems and that they were trying to say "I like singing". The same doesn't happen when some one says "I like rap". Frankly, I call hip-hop rap, and have been my whole life. Its never lead to confusion once.

Because it's widely accepted and known, it's not a matter of confusion and not knowing what somebody is on about, it's about it being wrong, and it is.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
It's not the correct name of the genre, but its unofficiall universally understood alternative name. You've been to the United States right? You should know that.

Why are you debating? My whole point was that it's a bit silly calling it that, as it's not its name. Why debate me if you actually know that?

-AC

chillmeistergen
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Oh, shut up for crying out loud. You whiney little idiot.


-AC

No you shut up, you overbearing, pompous ****

Quiero Mota
Originally posted by Tengu
yes and while it is widely accepted, that dosen't mean its right.


Yeah, that applies to a lot of things.

Originally posted by Tengu
Aristole seemed to think the earth was at the center of the universe and everybody believed him for the longest time, were they right? no

"F*cking Greeks!"

- Robert DeNiro in Analyze This!

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Why are you debating? My whole point was that it's a bit silly calling it that, as it's not its name. Why debate me if you actually know that?


I'm not debating you, ey. I made a statement.

If you and Mugen want to set out stop all the tens of millions of people who call it rap (including myself) then you two have a hell of a task a head of yourselves.

Tengu
well im not out on a pilgremage to straighten out the misconception, but regardless of how many people believe the other way, it is what it is man, thats not to say i dont use rap in reference to the genre, i just know the difference...most people dont, they think its 2 diffrent genres or 2 different somethings or whatever.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by chillmeistergen
No you shut up, you overbearing, pompous ****

Haha.

-AC

manorastroman
now that i've thought about it: isn't rap a genre term coined (in public terms) when sugarhill released "rappers delight" in 1979? if so, rap is a perfectly legitimate genre, because that's what the budding sound came to be publicly known as, long before the phrase "hip-hop" was coined. actually, i guess the phrase "hip-hop" could have come from "rappers delight"...you know, 'i said a hip-hope etc. etc. bang bang boogity beat' or what have you?

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by manorastroman
now that i've thought about it: isn't rap a genre term coined (in public terms) when sugarhill released "rappers delight" in 1979? if so, rap is a perfectly legitimate genre, because that's what the budding sound came to be publicly known as, long before the phrase "hip-hop" was coined. actually, i guess the phrase "hip-hop" could have come from "rappers delight"...you know, 'i said a hip-hope etc. etc. bang bang boogity beat' or what have you?

No because that's what they are, rappers. Rappers are in hip hop as singers are in other genres.

The genre isn't called rap.

-AC

pcp
surely if you understand what they mean it doesn't matter what you call it? When someone said rap music, you instantly thought of hip hop and therefore understood what he meant.

B dot Rob
Rap = The actual music
Hip Hop = Culture which includes rap

ergo rap is just a shorthand way of saying Hip Hop music as saying just Hip Hop would be incorrect.

You don't listen to hip hop (well I guess you could hear spray bottles and the footsteps of the lames that still break and the scratches if you get technical), you do listen to hip hop music though.

Tengu
Originally posted by B dot Rob
Rap = The actual music
Hip Hop = Culture which includes rap

ergo rap is just a shorthand way of saying Hip Hop music as saying just Hip Hop would be incorrect.

You don't listen to hip hop (well I guess you could hear spray bottles and the footsteps of the lames that still break and the scratches if you get technical), you do listen to hip hop music though.

yes and no, rap is included in hip-hop but its still not the genre itself. Rock has a culture to it, while it dosent have elements like hip-hop does, it has its own culture and then the music itself. Hip-hop is no different.

and how is breakdancing lame? you need to explain this one


Originally posted by pcp
surely if you understand what they mean it doesn't matter what you call it? When someone said rap music, you instantly thought of hip hop and therefore understood what he meant.

it isnt that big a deal, i just think its a simple misconception.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by pcp
surely if you understand what they mean it doesn't matter what you call it? When someone said rap music, you instantly thought of hip hop and therefore understood what he meant.

Doesn't change the fact that it's wrong.

Originally posted by B dot Rob
You don't listen to hip hop (well I guess you could hear spray bottles and the footsteps of the lames that still break and the scratches if you get technical), you do listen to hip hop music though.

Hip hop music, not rap music.

-AC

B dot Rob
Originally posted by Tengu
yes and no, rap is included in hip-hop but its still not the genre itself. Rock has a culture to it, while it dosent have elements like hip-hop does, it has its own culture and then the music itself. Hip-hop is no different.




Yeah, it is the genre as it's the actual musical content driving the culture. When you call something hip hop you are referring to the culture, which includes the four elements, when you say rap you mean the (genre of) music in the culture.

Rock is a bad analogy as it doesn't have elements in it comparible to hip hop.

Table salt would be a better example here. When someone asks you what's the gas in table salt you don't answer, why table salt of course, you answer chloride.

Same with hip hop

when someone asks, where's the music in hip hop, you answer why rap of course.

Hip hop music, not rap music.

And what do we call hip hop music again?

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by B dot Rob
Yeah, it is the genre as it's the actual musical content driving the culture. When you call something hip hop you are referring to the culture, which includes the four elements, when you say rap you mean the (genre of) music in the culture.

You keep saying "you", as if we all do the same thing as you. You call it rap, you're incorrect.

The movement is hip hop, the music is hip hop or technically accurate; hip hop music. It's not rap. Calling it rap is naming the music after one component contained in it.

Originally posted by B dot Rob
Rock is a bad analogy as it doesn't have elements in it comparible to hip hop.

It's not a bad analogy. Calling one genre something based on what happens IN it, is stupid.

Originally posted by B dot Rob
Table salt would be a better example here. When someone asks you what's the gas in table salt you don't answer, why table salt of course, you answer chloride.

That...isn't relevant, in any possible way.

Originally posted by B dot Rob
Same with hip hop

when someone asks, where's the music in hip hop, you answer why rap of course.

No, "you" don't. YOU might, you're wrong to do so. I say "hip hop", because that's what it's called.

Originally posted by B dot Rob
And what do we call hip hop music again?

Hip hop music.

Not a bright penny are you?

-AC

EPIIIBITES
Hey folks. Stop this...this is silly.

AC, you just gotta live with people calling it rap...even if you have an argument that it shouldn't be called rap, at the end of the day...who cares! Can't you just say..."whatever" and move on?

This thread is about how much musical credibility "it" has...let's move beyond these semantics, really.


...and as an aside, I don't think people would be arguing it as much if you weren't busting their balls.

Alpha Centauri
I've clearly said I accept what people call it.

I've just said it's wrong.

-AC

chillmeistergen
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I've clearly said I accept what people call it.

I've just said it's wrong.

-AC

I don;t actually know many people at all that actually call it 'rap music' every one I know just calls it hip hop. But then this discussion could go much further and question nearly every genre for example should grime be included in the hip hop genre or have a genre to itself?

chillmeistergen

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by chillmeistergen
I don;t actually know many people at all that actually call it 'rap music' every one I know just calls it hip hop. But then this discussion could go much further and question nearly every genre for example should grime be included in the hip hop genre or have a genre to itself?

Grime is a ridiculous name for an offshoot of British garage. So I just call it garage.

-AC

chillmeistergen
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Grime is a ridiculous name for an offshoot of British garage. So I just call it garage.

-AC

Yeah but it's not garage is it, for a start it has no breakbeats etc. Alot of the time it has no where near the same MCing style of garage either.

Alpha Centauri
It's a different kind of garage.

-AC

chillmeistergen
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's a different kind of garage.

-AC

Nearly every style of music is an offshoot of something else. For example rapping originates from an old form of Jamaican story telling. could it not just be said that hip hop is a different kind of Jamaican story telling?

B dot Rob
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You keep saying "you", as if we all do the same thing as you. You call it rap, you're incorrect.

Oxymoron, it's impossible to be incorrect when you are, in fact correct. And I keep saying you because I thought you knew something about hip hop (and thus knew that rap is the music in the culture), I was wrong

The movement is hip hop

End argument.

You're right the movement (which includes the rest of the elements) is hip hop, the music is rap.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Nearly every style of music is an offshoot of something else. For example rapping originates from an old form of Jamaican story telling. could it not just be said that hip hop is a different kind of Jamaican story telling?

Of course it could, if the connection is there. The difference is, hip hop has evolved greatly since. Almost unrecognisably.

Grime hasn't.

Originally posted by B dot Rob
Oxymoron, it's impossible to be incorrect when you are, in fact correct. And I keep saying you because I thought you knew something about hip hop (and thus knew that rap is the music in the culture), I was wrong

The movement is hip hop

End argument.

You're right the movement (which includes the rest of the elements) is hip hop, the music is rap.

The difference is, you think you are correct because you assume that the name of the movement cannot be the name of the music. You're incorrect on two counts. That one and the one in which you call hip hop, rap.

The movement is hip hop, the music is hip hop music, like the spraying is hip hop graffiti etc.

-AC

B dot Rob
Rap is an element in the hip hop movement and is the sole element that even qualifies hip hop as music (unless you want to call djing musical, I don't). Ergo

hip hop music = rap

hip hop =/= music

not a difficult concept to grasp

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by B dot Rob
Rap is an element in the hip hop movement and is the sole element that even qualifies hip hop as music (unless you want to call djing musical, I don't). Ergo

hip hop music = rap

hip hop =/= music

not a difficult concept to grasp

Rapping is an element of hip hop music, which is a part of the hip hop movement.

The music isn't rap, the music is hip hop/hip hop music.

You're incorrect.

-AC

chillmeistergen
anybody else think that this argument is a bit of a waste of time? it's a name, does it really matter? If you like the music that shold be all that matters

Alpha Centauri
I can accept people call it rap, but that's incorrect.

-AC

D00m
LOL @ AC arguing for 6 pages why "rap" is not a genre. Good ol' Alpha. You're right as usual AC, leave the kids alone. We get it.

Anyway, anybody who says hip-hop is too simplistic hasn't heard the Cold Vein, Fantastic Damage, ect ect. They obviously don't listen to enough of it. Just what's on the radio and TV. but then again it's all just opinions.

D00m
http://www.canibringmygat.com/2007/03/14/an-interview-with-el-p/

That's an interview with rapper/producer EL-P. Can you picture AC interviewing EL?

No El, rap is not a genre, it's called hip-hop. No, you're wrong EL-P. I'm right. Well, I'll accept you're wrong, but I'm right.

laughing out loud

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by D00m
http://www.canibringmygat.com/2007/03/14/an-interview-with-el-p/

That's an interview with rapper/producer EL-P. Can you picture AC interviewing EL?

No El, rap is not a genre, it's called hip-hop. No, you're wrong EL-P. I'm right. Well, I'll accept you're wrong, but I'm right.

laughing out loud

"Lol @" Doom storming in like the Ultimate Warrior and still forgetting to check if he's making sense or not.

He calls it rap music, many millions and millions of people are used to calling it rap music, he can do as he wishes. So can B dot, so can you, so can anybody.

The fact of the matter is, it's not actually called rap music. Him calling it that doesn't make it so.

For example, Americans call jam, jelly. They call jelly, jello. I accept that people CALL it jello, but the fact is, the substance is called jelly, not jello. Jello is a brand name which has become an all-encompassing ACCEPTED term, it's not the substance's real name. What its accepted name is and what its actual name is are two different things.

You're simply suggesting that because a really good MC and producer calls it rap, as many people do because they're used to it and it's easier, that he is correct. He's not correct, he's just using an accepted term.

El-P isn't right because he's El-P, his extreme talent doesn't afford him that luxury. You're attempting to push the age old argument of "If someone does it, and you don't, they know more.".

Why doesn't your sig say: "This is Rap:", Doom? It can't be because it's not rap, it's hip hop, since you're arguing against that and that would make you a hypocrite. It can't be a reference to the MOVEMENT, because you have only listed musical collectives or artists. So I assume there's an explanation coming in your reply.

-AC

D00m
haha, AC man you're hilarious. I'm not trying to defend the fact that people call it "rap". Who cares man. I'm just "LOL" because you've been arguing for 6 pages about what the genre is called when that isn't what the thread was even about. Are you really this anal, or do you just like picking on peoples posts?

D00m
who's the ultimate warrior? a wrestler I assume?? I dunno, never watched any of that stuff.

Alpha Centauri
I don't "care", man, I'm simply putting across the point. I'm not insulting anybody, just simply correcting a few things.

Nothing personal. If I was really that anal I'd have pulled you up for saying that spelling colour with a "U" is wrong, but I didn...oops.

(Joking, Doom.).

Originally posted by D00m
who's the ultimate warrior? a wrestler I assume?? I dunno, never watched any of that stuff.

Come on, you don't know the Ultimate Warrior? You at least know Hulk Hogan, then? Macho Man Randy Savage?

-AC

D00m
Everybody knows the Hulk. I mean, if i do I assume everybody else does. I've heard of Macho Man. But I never gotten into wrestling at all. I tried a few times but it never interested me. But I get that all the time. People start naming wrestlers at me and act like I'm from another planet for not knowing who they are. Damn, if AC is a fan of wrestling everybody must be but me.

and it's COLOR.











laughing out loud

Alpha Centauri
Nah, English language, English spelling.

Americans have a problem with silent letters and non-literal spelling, but like Pac, I ain't mad atcha.

-AC

D00m
Who's Pac? Is he that rap guy?

Tengu
http://www.thebeststuffintheworld.com/images/images_of_stuff/210x600/pacman-8456.jpg


no, hes this guy

pcp
'Hip-Hop' originated in Reggae or 'dub' reggae which was then brought over to New York, and the speaking verses became poetic and later became known as rap. At no time does the term 'hip-hop' figure. If you're gonna be real technical about it you should call it dub reggae.

Tengu
well if were gonna be real technical about it then why dont we call Rock Jazz then, becuase thats where it got its origins from. The name of the genre dosent have to have anything to do with the where it originated or how it came about. because using your logic all music can just be called banging on a rock with a beat to it, as archaic as it is thats how music itself started.

Alpha Centauri
This is all because people can't accept the fact that it's called hip hop, not rap, regardless of what's accepted.

It has nothing to do with origins.

-AC

-hh-
i haven't read all the posts, but i dont see what's the difficulty in understanding all this.

Hip Hop = Genre
Rap = what you do

D00m
I'm going to end this debate once and for all: WHO CARES. That's not even what this thread is about. Some people need to get out more. Get a hobby or something. So what if somebody wants to call hip-hop rap. God forbid they do. God forbid they be "wrong".

Alpha Centauri
Some people need to just admit it's fact to call hip hop, rap, instead of dancing around it for fear of agreeing with someone they don't wish to agree with.

No need to put "Wrong" in quotation marks, Doom. Just say the word, because it is what it is. Nobody here, including me, has a problem with anyone calling it "rap", it's an accepted term, just an incorrect one.

-AC

D00m
Yea but what's the need to point it out and argue about it so much? That wasn't the question being asked. What does it matter? What's the need for the hip-hop vs rap debate?

Alpha Centauri
There's no need, there will always be a debate where people don't think they're wrong. There shouldn't be a debate here, but naturally...

Either way, it's no Biggie.

-AC

Clone
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Rapping is what hip hop MCs do. It could be considered the act of rhyming to music in the particular style that is seen in hip hop.

It's not a genre, it's an act. A "rap" is what an MC performs in a song.

The genre is called hip hop.

-AC I agree with you 100% with rap not being the correct genre but a rap can be performed by an MC or just a rapper and there is a difference between the two. I think the diffrence is that an MC, a true MC, can rap a story out and make sense they can make it poetic and a rapper can not or just wont because they would rather rap about how much money the have.

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