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Both at their peak. The scenario is where Darth Maul battled Obi and Qui-Gon (to make this an epic battle). Who wins?

At their peak are you kidding? that would mean FP anakin and revan will get pwned

You can't use FP anakin because that's illogical and that's pretty much forbidden on this forums. However, Anakin as of ROTS was at his peak, and he doesn't stand a chance against Revan in the force. However, it is very likely he could win a saber battle, but I don't see that happening either. Now you can wonder why I think Revan would win a saber battle, especially since we have no information on his saber skills. However, Revan was indeed the best of the best in his era, and I think that at the very least gives him a stalemate with Anakin in terms of dueling.

um... whats a stalemate? sorry, dont think im an idiot, its just that my first language is spanish so..

Originally posted by Riverollv
um... whats a stalemate? sorry, dont think im an idiot, its just that my first language is spanish so..
Stalemate means Draw.

Regarding Saber styles:

Anakin mastered Djem So (Form V).

Revan mastered Form I, possibly Form V, Form VI and Jar Kai.

And he was a skilled swordsman and after his fight on Star Forge, he proved to be a Prodigal Knight. I don't think that Anakin can defeat him even in pure Saber Combat.

Revan wins in all cases. And will easily destroy Anakin in the Force contest.

Wow, mommy, Revan might have mastered one or two more forms than Anakin Skywalker! That means jack shit.



Ooh, a Prodigal Knight? I want to be a Prodigal Knight, but then again, what does "proving to be a Prodigal Knight" have to do with this discussion?

Anakin proved his worth by defeating Count Dooku on the Invisible Hand, and he could very well be the numero uno swordsman in a stronger Jedi Order of thousands (as well as the galaxy), and even if wouldn't consider him as such, whomever is ahead of him is more adept, and more skilled than Revan, or Malak (e.g. Yoda, Mace).

But, then again none of that matters, because Revan is a Prodigal Knight.



No, Anakin can take him in bladed combat, him being a Prodigal Knight doesn't change that.

I'd personally say Revan takes it, even in saber combat.

Vandar described him as a saber prodigy, indicating that his natural grasp of the saber is on quite the high level; I would actually hesitate to even call Anakin a saber prodigy at all given he didn't technically advance at any extreme rate, and was only as good as he was because of his force strength.

Now we know that Revan did actually beat Darth Malak in saber combat, while being powered up by the Star Forge and described as near invincible. That's the same Malak who has quite the achievement under his belt, given that even in the days before he was powered up by the Star Forge, defeated Master Kavar, who was basically the BattleMaster of the KotOR Jedi Order, indicating he was one of the top KotOR Jedi Order duelists, and probably the best.

Revan's also faced far more combat against other force users and lightsaber users than Anakin has, seeing as he was involved in the Jedi Civil War. Add in the Mandalorian Wars, and he even has a greater overall battle experience than Anakin.

There's also the fact that Revan was perfectly content with going into battle with three powerful jedi with just his saber. Now we now that Revan certainly has the ability to have just taken them all out with the force, yet he was still confident enough in his saber ability to take it easy and just use his saber, implying that he might have been as confident in his ability with a saber as he was with his ability with the force.

The thing is, force ability strongly correlates with saber ability (precognition, reflexes, increasing your speed for example), and Revan being as strong as he is with the force heavily supports him being awesome with a saber.

So I'd say Revan takes this, due to his prodigious saber skills coupled along with his immense strength with the force, and his greater battle experience.

Originally posted by Advent
Wow, mommy, Revan might have mastered one or two more forms than Anakin Skywalker! That means jack shit.
Mastering more Saber Forms gives a clue about his Combat capabilities. I mentioned this not for comparison basis but for informative purpose that what Revan had practised/mastered before we could proceed to make further discussions.

Originally posted by Advent
Ooh, a Prodigal Knight? I want to be a Prodigal Knight, but then again, what does "proving to be a Prodigal Knight" have to do with this discussion?

Anakin proved his worth by defeating Count Dooku on the Invisible Hand, and he could very well be the numero uno swordsman in a stronger Jedi Order of thousands (as well as the galaxy), and even if wouldn't consider him as such, whomever is ahead of him is more adept, and more skilled than Revan, or Malak (e.g. Yoda, Mace).

But, then again none of that matters, because Revan is a Prodigal Knight.
And Revan proved his worth in combat against an entire army of Sith on Star Forge, Bastilla (who was powered up by Star Forge itself) and then the Dark Lord Malak, who was well prepared. And Revan succeeded against all odds.

Anakin's victory over Dooku is impressive but that does not compares to what Revan faced in his final long fight on Star Forge.

Yoda and Mace being ahead of Revan in Saber Combat is questionable. Mace's case can be backed up by his victory over Sidious but I can't say the same about Yoda.

Originally posted by Advent
No, Anakin can take him in bladed combat, him being a Prodigal Knight doesn't change that.
The Prodigal Knight has achieved much more then what Anakin did. It is questionable that Anakin can take him in Saber Combat or not. Dooku uses Makashi and Revan does not uses Makashi. Djem So proved to be effective against Makashi.

Revan is not like Dooku.

Originally posted by allfg
I'd personally say Revan takes it, even in saber combat.

Well, I might even say you're wrong.

You're wrong.



Palpatine described him as "the most gifted Jedi has ever met". Even Mace Windu says that his skills are exceptional. And the omniscient narrator would note Anakin Skywalker as:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation (which likely doesn't include Mace Windu, or Yoda). Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. (Revenge of the Sith novelization, Ch. 1)

Even if do want to consider it hyperbolic, it indicates that he is vastly powerful, and immensely skilled.

Within less than ten years, Anakin mastered Djem So to be able to wield the form with enough proficiency for Count Dooku to proclaim him as "fine a one as had ever seen". Now, as we know, that's obviously an innumerable amount of Jedi, given that Count Dooku was around for years upon years.



He was able to do in ten years what the majority of Jedi cannot do in a lifetime - defeat Count Dooku. If that's not indicative of him being prodigious, I don't know what is.

Now, you'll also have to take into account that he would've had to have practiced Shii Cho, and Ataru before even beginning Djem So, so it's even more of a testament to his skill that he was able to do such, and still go on to defeat Count Dooku, who would make some Council members look like child's play.



1. We know that Revan overcome Darth Malak in combat; where does it specifically state "saber combat"? As saying merely that implies they only dueled using lightsaber.

2. To go along with that, unless there's new information out, we have absolutely no idea of by how he defeated him, or even by what margin.

3. "This confrontation erupted into a massive battle as Republic fleet forces arrived to attack the Star Forge. Endless streams of ships poured forth from the Star Forge, striking against the amassed warships of the Republic.

Malak was nearly unstoppable, but the Republic emerged from that epic conflict victorious, as the Star Forge was eventually destroyed." (Star Wars databank, Darth Malak)

It does indeed say that he was "nearly unstoppable", however, it then goes on to say that the Republic won, because the Star Forge was destroyed, and there's talk of the skirmish between the two forces, as well. One could assume that it wasn't stating that Malak, as an individual being was nigh unconquerable, but the entire force he had at his disposal.



Yes, that's "quite the achievement" compared to Anakin defeating Dooku! Hell, Anakin's stomped Cin Drallig, the battle master of the RotS Order, into a mudhole. While he's not the best, the mere fact that he was able to kill him using one hand while choking a padawan with the another speaks volumes.

Anyways, to get on point, Kavar, as far as we know, was jack shit when compared to Anakin, or even Count Dooku for that matter. Do you have any proof of the contrary? That he's even on their level? As for the actual duel between the two, what were the circumstances of the fight? Such as: how did Malak win, was it a basic beat down or a TPM Kenobi (or a hard fought duel that could've gone either way), etc. His defeat of Kavar is impressive, but not overly so, due to the fact we know next to nothing about what happened, and one thing we do know, though, is Malak got his jaw cut off by a Jedi.

I'm going to do the same thing you've done, except tailor it to fit my argument. Anakin was victorious over Count Dooku, and defeated him in record time. That's the same Dooku who has quite the list of achievements under his belt:

Originally posted by Advent
As seen in the background is Tholme, who himself is no weakling was battling with Sora (2-on-1) against Dooku, and even so Dooku still beat Sora, and right after spared Tholme, only of course, after owning him with his saber as well:

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/2785/tholmedookuduelga6.th.jpg

Really though, Dooku has a vast amount of training, and experience over Malak. Roughly 80+ years of it. Since we know he was trained as a youngling, he has about 70+ years experience as a Jedi, and 13 years as a Sith Lord. Now, we know experience definitely isn't everything, however, to deny it gives an advantage is purely ridiculous. For example, throughout those years - he is stated to know "Every weakness of Ataru" (his duel against Yoda obviously didn't end in a victory, however, Yoda's pure skill is probably better than anything).

And within those years, has mastered Makashi - the lightsaber to lightsaber form - to it's highest degree. Admittedly, forms are necessity for victory, however, it's clue that Dooku's lightsaber skills are no joke.

He has also bested Mace Windu in personal combat before, now Windu wasn't at his peak, however, he still beat him (it's kind of irrelevant to even bring up, but just to add to the fact). He's also described as "Dooku, consummate planner, consummate duelist." Consummate meaning perfect or to the highest degree. Clearly Dooku's skill with a lightsaber is amazing. Even Yoda comments on his skills:

"Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!"

Calling him the strongest student, and one that has learned the most. We also know Dooku is more powerful than Grievous, who has slain numerous Jedi Masters with ease (Council member as well), Asajj Ventress, and so on.

Furthermore, he was able to easily take down AotC Kenobi, who - even for the time - was never considered a shoddy swordsman, and AotC Anakin, then was able to combat Yoda for a decent amount of time, and still escape with his head on his shoulders. Not to mention, being described by the omniscient narrator as "one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history" (meaning one of the most powerful beings in the Order ever), and then titled as "an even greater Sith", implying his power increased.

Dooku really doesn't need anyone to list his feats, seeing as on merit alone, he's considered one of the best lightsaber duelists of his era, and more than likely in the top five of a stronger era (when it comes to top dogs, at least); those who are ahead of him, like Yoda, Sidious, Mace, Anakin, etc. are all better than Kavar, so it doesn't matter what his rank is.

Being at the top of the food chain in lightsaber combat within the Jedi Order is no small feat, but it doesn't mean that he's anywhere in the same league as the best of a different era. Even General Grievous is seemingly more talented (in blades).



That's great, but experience is hardly the end all, be all. It may add an advantage, but as we've seen demonstrated on several separate occasions, it doesn't stop more skilled opponents from killing them all the time.



There's also the fact that Anakin chooses to dominate his opponents with a lightsaber, and is perfectly content with unleashing his rage, and honing it like a weapon to completely overwhelm even the greatest of swordsman. Which, to me, implies that Anakin is a beast in lightsaber combat, and could very well take down anyone in the era in a pure lightsaber bout.

In an seriousness though, even if that were the case, it doesn't mean that in actuality he's as good in practice with lightsabers as in the force, we've seen several occasions where people decide to ignite their lightsabers, and choose that route over a force battle, even when they may have a better chance.

No one is denying that he's good with a lightsaber, so I don't really care. But, for all of Count Dooku's strength in the force, years of experience, and talent with a blade, he still lost to Anakin, and during their one-on-one duel, he did so very quickly, I might add.

I'm of the mind that Revan won't beat him. All these miscellaneous reasons, or the fact that Revan was a Prodigal Knight don't change the fact Revan isn't John Cena, so he's not overcoming these odds (Anakin) in saber combat.

@ S_w_LeGo:

Be quiet, and go respond to my where I, and everyone else, kicked your ass in this thread. I don't have time to watch Barney, and play with these toy arguments you give. Let someone who's a more capable debater attempt this situation.

Originally posted by Kadesh
At their peak are you kidding? that would mean FP anakin and revan will get pwned
He said ROTS Anakin so he means Anakin during his peak in ROTS.



Anyways, I think that Revan would take this but it'd be very close. Anakin might be better with a blade but Revan is stronger with the Force.

Nevermind this post.

So who is Anakin, Edge?

Erm, why'd you remove your post? Lol.

Cause it was what you said but shorter...no real point in keeping it.

You want exceptional debating Advent, now you will get it.

Originally posted by Advent
Well, I might even say you're wrong.

You're wrong.
We will see indeed.

Originally posted by Advent
Palpatine described him as "the most gifted Jedi has ever met". Even Mace Windu says that his skills are exceptional. And the omniscient narrator would note Anakin Skywalker as:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation (which likely doesn't include Mace Windu, or Yoda). Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. (Revenge of the Sith novelization, Ch. 1)

Even if do want to consider it hyperbolic, it indicates that he is vastly powerful, and immensely skilled.

Within less than ten years, Anakin mastered Djem So to be able to wield the form with enough proficiency for Count Dooku to proclaim him as "fine a one as had ever seen". Now, as we know, that's obviously an innumerable amount of Jedi, given that Count Dooku was around for years upon years.
Revan was described to be the most gifted and promising Jedi by several Jedi Masters in his age, which he in-fact was.

So it is not a big deal if Anakin was the most gifted Jedi on his age. I can say that Luke was also a gifted Jedi of his age.

Revan’s famed Jedi Master “Kriea” said this about Revan: “Revan was power. Looking in to his eyes was like staring in to his heart of the Force.”

Even if this statement seems a little hyperbolic, it still gives us a hint about how powerful Revan was. Describing someone as heart of the Force is not so easy. Only Luke skywalker earned this level of respect.

Canderous said this about Revan : “You, Revan, are the single greatest warrior of this age, and any battle we fight will bring me honor."

Revan proved to be the greatest warrior of his age by defeating so many individuals in combat that we cannot even count them. He crushed Mandalore - The Ultimate (the most talented and powerful Mandalore in KOTOR period) in a single combat and executed him in-front of his followers like he was nothing but a joke.

Echani also held a great deal of respect for him even though they hated him. Yusanis the most powerful Echani warrior challenged Revan in a fight and Yusanis had never lost in a single fight in his life. But this was his ultimate mistake and despite his own impressive skills, he fell under the wrath of Revan.

The Echani believed that Revan represented the epitome of what one could achieve in the arts of war, and that his skill was borne out of a highly advanced battle precognition. Revan’s precognition capabilities were excellent in short words. And greater the precognition of a Jedi, the more effectively he will fight.

Besides having exceptional powers as a force-user, as well as a master planner, he also proved to be a capable droid builder (like Anakin Skywalker), but programming it to be the ultimate assassin and droid translator instead of just a protocol droid.

Originally posted by Advent
He was able to do in ten years what the majority of Jedi cannot do in a lifetime - defeat Count Dooku. If that's not indicative of him being prodigious, I don't know what is.

Now, you'll also have to take into account that he would've had to have practiced Shii Cho, and Ataru before even beginning Djem So, so it's even more of a testament to his skill that he was able to do such, and still go on to defeat Count Dooku, who would make some Council members look like child's play.
I can safely say that Revan accomplished so much in just 8 years that many Jedi including Anakin could not do in 10 years.

Revan smashed Yusanis (the most powerful and experienced Echani warrior ever known) in a single combat. He also brought down one of the best swordsmen of his age “Malak” to his knees on Star Forge despite all the preparations and advantages that Malak enjoyed on Star Forge. Malak was the DLOTS and was the declared to be the strongest among Sith by his own followers. Revan also single-handedly smashed two Terentateks (beasts that were known as Jedi killers) in a single combat on Korriban and note that Terentateks are immune to most of the Force attacks as indicated in KOTOR.

Revan also smashed hordes after hordes of Dark Jedi on Star Forge despite them being boosted by the strong presence of Dark Side and additionally being aided by Bastilla’s Battle Meditation.

And Revan practised Shii Cho, Soresu, Ataru and Djem So before he even attempted to master Form VI saber style. And then he went forward to master Jar Kai combat style and was known to be among its greatest pracitioners. His great achievements in several years of war and then his amazing display of power and skills on Star Forge were testament to his power. The Jedi Council sent several Jedi Knights on Star Forge and all were crushed but Revan succeeded against all heavy odds in a single long battle. The Sith army that came to face Revan consisted of large number of powerful Battle Droids, Dark Jedi and heavily armed Elite Sith Troopers and they were being aided by Battle Meditation of Bastilla and still they all failed as Revan destroyed waves after waves of legions of this army on several ocassions/places of Star Forge before reaching Bastilla. As for his powers, he was perhaps the closest stated in the current canon (legacy of the force) as the perfect practitioner of both Jedi/Sith powers, who wasn't truly influenced by the dark or light powers. If this all is not prodigious then I don’t know what is.

Originally posted by Advent
1. We know that Revan overcome Darth Malak in combat; where does it specifically state "saber combat"? As saying merely that implies they only dueled using lightsaber.

2. To go along with that, unless there's new information out, we have absolutely no idea of by how he defeated him, or even by what margin.

3. "This confrontation erupted into a massive battle as Republic fleet forces arrived to attack the Star Forge. Endless streams of ships poured forth from the Star Forge, striking against the amassed warships of the Republic.

Malak was nearly unstoppable, but the Republic emerged from that epic conflict victorious, as the Star Forge was eventually destroyed." (Star Wars databank, Darth Malak)

It does indeed say that he was "nearly unstoppable", however, it then goes on to say that the Republic won, because the Star Forge was destroyed, and there's talk of the skirmish between the two forces, as well. One could assume that it wasn't stating that Malak, as an individual being was nigh unconquerable, but the entire force he had at his disposal.

1. The handmaiden in KOTOR II described the fight between Revan and Malak as an Epic one. The vision of Duron Qel Droma also indicated Revan holding his ignited Light Saber and standing tall over fallen Malak. Even on official Star Wars blogs section, it was indicated in the profile entry of Revan that Revan killed Malak in a “Titanic” Duel. All
these cases suggest that immense Saber Combat took place between Revan and Malak on Star Forge.

Here is a PIC of vision of Duron about duel between Revan and Malak:

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/9726/180pxshadowsandlightxz9.jpg

Now obviously Revan was not posing there with his Light Saber.

2. The above cases suggest that it was an Epic fight in which extensive Saber Combat also took place between the two foes.

3. The entire Force that Malak had on his disposal was indeed very powerful and with support from Bastilla’s Battle Meditation, they were invincible. But SW Databank also used word “he” when referring to Malak , when using the term “nearly unstoppable”. The choices of words do matter here as this is mentioned in an official source. They could have said that Malak’s Forces were nearly unstoppable when mentioning this but they did not and instead chose to say that Malak was nearly unstoppable. They knew that Batilla’s support was swayed away by Revan and then it came down to Malak. Malak was indeed nearly unstoppable on Star Forge after all the preparations he made to solidify his position before facing Revan.


Originally posted by Advent
Yes, that's "quite the achievement" compared to Anakin defeating Dooku! Hell, Anakin's stomped Cin Drallig, the battle master of the RotS Order, into a mudhole. While he's not the best, the mere fact that he was able to kill him using one hand while choking a padawan with the another speaks volumes.
Revan tooled and dominated several very powerful foes so Anakin does not have edge even in this case.

Originally posted by Advent
Anyways, to get on point, Kavar, as far as we know, was jack shit when compared to Anakin, or even Count Dooku for that matter. Do you have any proof of the contrary? That he's even on their level? As for the actual duel between the two, what were the circumstances of the fight? Such as: how did Malak win, was it a basic beat down or a TPM Kenobi (or a hard fought duel that could've gone either way), etc. His defeat of Kavar is impressive, but not overly so, due to the fact we know next to nothing about what happened, and one thing we do know, though, is Malak got his jaw cut off by a Jedi.
Kavar was more of an accomplished Jedi then Dralling as he was a famed leader of Jedi Knights in his age and such was his popularity that he was expected to lead the Jedi in the Mandalorian Wars by the Mandalorians themselves. He mastered Juyo (which is a superior Saber Form to Niman) and also had firm knowledge in all other Saber Forms. Malak defeated this famed Jedi Master in combat and fight was so hard that Kavar nearly escaped with his life.

Then kavar instructed Jedi Exile in the arts of Saber Combat and she turned out to be one of the most successful fighters in her age and also helped her in difficult situations during fights. And so what if Malak got his half-jaw cut from a Saber strike under mysterious circumstances? LOTF Luke got his hand chopped off in one of his fights and we know the reason. It is possible that Malak would have been distracted when this happened.

As evident from KOTOR II: Kavar practiced Jar'Kai and other variants of the Light Saber combat forms including Ataru, Shien, Niman, and Juyo. Kavar was also known to practise Force Lightning (even as a Jedi).

I would rate Kavar much higher then Dralling.

Originally posted by Advent
I'm going to do the same thing you've done, except tailor it to fit my argument. Anakin was victorious over Count Dooku, and defeated him in record time. That's the same Dooku who has quite the list of achievements under his belt:

Furthermore, he was able to easily take down AotC Kenobi, who - even for the time - was never considered a shoddy swordsman, and AotC Anakin, then was able to combat Yoda for a decent amount of time, and still escape with his head on his shoulders. Not to mention, being described by the omniscient narrator as "one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history" (meaning one of the most powerful beings in the Order ever), and then titled as "an even greater Sith", implying his power increased.

Dooku really doesn't need anyone to list his feats, seeing as on merit alone, he's considered one of the best lightsaber duelists of his era, and more than likely in the top five of a stronger era (when it comes to top dogs, at least); those who are ahead of him, like Yoda, Sidious, Mace, Anakin, etc. are all better than Kavar, so it doesn't matter what his rank is.

Being at the top of the food chain in lightsaber combat within the Jedi Order is no small feat, but it doesn't mean that he's anywhere in the same league as the best of a different era. Even General Grievous is seemingly more talented (in blades).
Now I will make a comparison between Dooku and Malak as I see that you forgot many important points of Malak. Also age is irrelevant when judging the capability of a Jedi. We all know that Yoda was 800 years old and yet Sidious managed to defeat him in combat. Same can be said by Dooku as he was defeated by a less experienced Jedi then him.

Now about Malak:

Early reputation as a promising Jedi:

Malak like Revan was a quick learner and always wanted to learn more as compared to all other Jedi of his age. This was a first glimpse of his earlier personality. He was also strong in the Force and was considered to be second only to Revan among thousands of Jedi students which is noticeable. Not all people earn this kind of reputation.

A Jedi Hero and a strong and experienced warrior:

Malak was the first Jedi to follow Revan in the fight against Mandalorian Forces and and gained immense experience fighting alongside him in the war that continued for about 4 years. Malak held a reputation of recklessely charging in to dangerous fights and win during the Mandalorian Wars (as indicated by SW Databank). He would have killed many battle-hardened Mandalorians which is a noticeable achievement to earn a notorious reputation of head-strong warrior and became a war hero like Revan. And we know that Mandalorians were much more capable warriors then those Battle Droids that we saw in the movies and Obi-Wan was having trouble against one experienced Mandalorian warrior in AOTC. This gives us a glimpse of how powerful Malak was.

Becomes a powerful Sith Lord:

Among all the followers of Revan, he chose Malak as his apprentice after becoming a Dark Lord. Then Malak travelled to several worlds (where presence of Dark Side was stronger) alongside revan in quest of greater power and learned a great deal of Sith techniques from such experiences and training by Revan.

Darth Sion said this about Malak: “Malak had power and he embraced it.”

The DLOTS of Sith:

Malak became very powerful under his training from Revan and it was only matter of time that he was becoming ready to challenge Revan for DLOTS title. As he was a very quick learner (indicated before), in just 3 years of training he was getting ready to challenge his master, which is noticeabale. Malak revealed this when we meet him on Leviathan. Count Dooku despite becoming powerful from training from Sidious never had the guts to challenge his Sith Master and fell to his trap.

Malak said this to Revan: “Soon I was going to be ready to challenge you for the mentle of Dark Lord even if I had not betrayed you”. But fortune shined on him and his job became much easier as Revan fell in to the trap of Jedi. Malak knew that Revan would win and defeat all those Jedi, so he decided to betray him and succeeded. Now since Revan was the most powerful Jedi/Sith in his age and was very knowledgeable (as indicated in POD Novel), so it is highly possible that Malak would have failed against him but at-least Malak had the guts to make such a decision.

Apart from this Malak was considered to be the strongest Sith among all of his followers (after Revan of-course).

Yuthura Ban said this about Malak: “Malak is the strongest of us, and the strongest always rules… at least until one who is stronger can take it from him."

This clearly reinforces my point that Malak was very powerful.

Notable victories:

- Against Kavar
- Against Bastilla Shan (on Leviathan)
- Against Revan (on Leviathan)

Against Kavar: Although not much is known about this fight but Kavar nearly escaped with his life when he faced Malak.

Against Bastilla Shan: Bastilla Shan also was a promising Jedi and was famous for leading the Jedi strike team against Revan. She also possibly mastered double-bladed Saber combat technique. On Leviathan, she was was no match for Malak and he easily defeated her.

Against Revan and his two accomplished companions: Revan was the most powerful Jedi in his age and even stronger then Malak. He clashed with Malak on Leviathan and soon discovered that Malak was not at all an easy foe. Despite his immense power and his dominance over Malak in the initial duel, Revan failed to defeat Malak and Malak managed to over-power him with his Force Mastery after a brutal clash, until Bastilla saved his life by distracting Malak and sacrificed herself for Revan and Carth to escape. This was Malak’s greatest victory in a single combat.

Continued...

Malak’s Power and Force Mastery:

Indicated in Dark Forces: “An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies.”

Malak was a master swordsman and an adept Force User. Drew indicated that Malak used Juyo (which is the best Saber Form known) and suited aggressive fighters well.

Here is what Malak was capable of according to KOTOR:

- Master Practitioner of Force Lightning. He could instantly kill a Jedi with his Force Lightning (as shown in KOTOR). He also tortured and corrupted Bastilla Shan with his Force Lightning in the Rakatan Temple.
- TK abilities. (Adept in art of Saber Throw as well)
- Force Grip
- Force Push
- Force Choke
- Force Whirlwind. (He trapped Revan in a Force Whirlwind on Leviathan)
- Capable of Force stunning multiple Jedi. (He instantly stunned Bastilla and Carth in a cut-scene in KOTOR)
- Mind Control capability.
- Strong defensive abilities like Force Deflection and protected by a strong body armor (that could deflect a Light Saber as demonstrated in KOTOR)
- Force Drain capability.
- Telepathy.
- Burst of Speed capability.
- Force Healing capability.
- Force Jump.

Comparison with Dooku:

In contrast to this what Dooku knew/demonstrated in the movies is following:

- Practitioner of Force Lightning.
- Strong TK abilities.
- Force Grip.
- Force Push.
- Force Jump.
- Force Deflection.
- Possibly Burst of Speed.
- Possibly Telepathy.

Saber Skills:

Dooku is expert of Makashi and yet Juyo is more effective then Makashi, which Malak knew and mastered (as hinted by Drew to me). Malak held a reputation of head-strong and very aggressive warrior like that of Anakin.

Strength Factor:

Dooku is an old man and his strength was not as great as that of Malak. Malak was taller, physically stronger and a very imposing figure and greater strength always gives advantage to a Jedi in combat situations. Malak even survived the horrid injury he suffered on his face through unknown circumstances and managed to over-come its incredible pain through his will.

Experience Factor:

Now despite being a powerful Sith Lord, I don’t see Dooku having any great advantage over Malak. If you talk about experience then you should note that real experience is always gained from wars and conflicts and not just from years of training.

Dooku as far as I know had participated in Clone Wars (that continued for 4 years).

But Malak participated in two wars:

A) Mandalorian Wars (which continued for 4 years).
B) Jedi Civil War (which also continued for 4 years).

Malak had faced no less hard challenges then Dooku faced and he faced them all with courage and was only defeated by the Prodigal knight on Star Forge. If Dooku faced Yoda and Mace then Malak faced Revan twice, who is one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith in the Star Wars universe (considered by many to be among TOP 5 Jedi and Sith and a match for Yoda).

We also know that Malak is far more powerful then Darth Bandon who had slain many Jedi including Revan’s one time friend (Trask). Darth Bandon was also a powerful Sith as described in the SW Databank for having great strength in the Force, his natural cruelty and his absolute ruthlessness in his quest for power soon set him apart from his fellow students, and drew the calculating eye of Lord Malak himself.

And Malak was the second strongest after Revan (who is more powerful then Dooku in every aspect) among the order of thousands.

Malak also used some dominating weapons in combat. He was thought to have possessed a powerful Sith Sword recovered from Korriban, although he rarely used it in combat. He indeed used a special Light saber, longer than then the standard sabers. Longer Light Saber has more chance to hit an opponent.

Originally posted by Advent
That's great, but experience is hardly the end all, be all. It may add an advantage, but as we've seen demonstrated on several separate occasions, it doesn't stop more skilled opponents from killing them all the time.

There's also the fact that Anakin chooses to dominate his opponents with a lightsaber, and is perfectly content with unleashing his rage, and honing it like a weapon to completely overwhelm even the greatest of swordsman. Which, to me, implies that Anakin is a beast in lightsaber combat, and could very well take down anyone in the era in a pure lightsaber bout.

In an seriousness though, even if that were the case, it doesn't mean that in actuality he's as good in practice with lightsabers as in the force, we've seen several occasions where people decide to ignite their lightsabers, and choose that route over a force battle, even when they may have a better chance.
Anakin is among the best swordsmen in SW Galaxy but that does not means that he can out-duel those who are also aggressive fighters like him and have much more experience and faced more hard challenges and are more powerful then him. Revan is one such Jedi who will give Anakin a challenge far harder than that of Dooku and Obi-Wan. I don’t see Anakin winning in any case over Revan. I will however agree that Anakin will give hard to challenge to Revan in pure dueling contest and it would be close but Revan can still win.

You know, LeGenD, I simply don't understand why you can continue to debate; people have often compared you to Nebaris, but realistically, Nebaris is capable of constructing a good argument (when he isn't clouded by bias or simply not wanting to be a jackass). You aren't bound by such "restraints". You simply argue and argue and argue and get beat and get beat and get beat. Then you argue some more.

As far as this fight is concerned, it can go either way. Accounts of Revan seem to imply that he pretty much amazing with the Force and his usage of it. Anakin's power is uncontrolled and lies mostly within his potential (even though he is capable of spectacular feats), and so he lacks Revan's control. However, in certain situations, that is irrelevent. Count Dooku - as Advent has proven - was a supremely powerful Jedi (one of the very best in SW history) and then became a greater Sith Lord, meaning that he advanced in power and overall ability under Darth Sidious. And, yet, look what happened to Dooku in his fight with Anakin? Once a certain point was reached - Dooku's skill, knowledge, and experience was simply made into a joke. He cut through Dooku's defense and wiped him out.

This is what I interpret to be "Anakin at his peak" (aside from him at full potential, in which Revan would be annihilated), and so I do believe that Revan would die a painful, miserable death in a lightsaber fight, or in a situation similar to Dooku's, where his skills are made irrelevent. Revan isn't miles and miles above Dooku, so if we used common logical deduction - if Anakin can render someone of Dooku's caliber (who would not be owned by Revan) a joke (as spoken by the omniscient narrator), then Anakin would do the same to Revan. Granted, it may take more effort, but Revan will die to Anakin in a swordfight, and this is simply the irrefutable case.

However, if Revan plays smart and uses his considerable Force prowess from the beginning, I see him winning.

Escape, I think you're giving Anakin too much credit here. You can't really compare Dooku to Revan in the force because Revan IS far superior to him in that category, so in a force fight Anakin doesn't really have a chance.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Escape, I think you're giving Anakin too much credit here. You can't really compare Dooku to Revan in the force because Revan IS far superior to him in that category, so in a force fight Anakin doesn't really have a chance.

I didn't say that Anakin would win in a Force fight. I said he'd win in a lightsaber fight, which he would. Revan may be a lot ahead of Dooku in the Force, but there is nothing to indicate that he is so in the lightsaber skill department. Anakin would soundly kick Revan's ass in that department.

Originally posted by Gideon
You know, LeGenD, I simply don't understand why you can continue to debate; people have often compared you to Nebaris, but realistically, Nebaris is capable of constructing a good argument (when he isn't clouded by bias or simply not wanting to be a jackass). You aren't bound by such "restraints". You simply argue and argue and argue and get beat and get beat and get beat. Then you argue some more.
I don't care about my comparison with other people as I may not be as good as you and others are but I have enough right to participate in a debate as you have.

What I mentioned above is what I know about Revan and Malak and I used some sources to also back up my points. Now you have trouble reading my posts then stop reading them or add me to your ignore list as it will save you from my views.

Originally posted by Gideon
As far as this fight is concerned, it can go either way. Accounts of Revan seem to imply that he pretty much amazing with the Force and his usage of it. Anakin's power is uncontrolled and lies mostly within his potential (even though he is capable of spectacular feats), and so he lacks Revan's control. However, in certain situations, that is irrelevent. Count Dooku - as Advent has proven - was a supremely powerful Jedi (one of the very best in SW history) and then became a greater Sith Lord, meaning that he advanced in power and overall ability under Darth Sidious. And, yet, look what happened to Dooku in his fight with Anakin? Once a certain point was reached - Dooku's skill, knowledge, and experience was simply made into a joke. He cut through Dooku's defense and wiped him out.
Fights indeed can go either way but this is in the case when two equals clash. Anakin is among best and I never denied this but simply trying to over-state him in certain areas won't help. I know that Anakin is a saber master but that does not means that he can over-power and defeat more powerful individuals. Advent has her own views about such things and I have mine. You agree more with Advent then you are allowed to do so as it is your choice but you cannot just go on and trash views of others that you don't like. People have different perceptions about things and you should be well aware of this.

Some people consider Vader to be most powerful Jedi and some don't.

Originally posted by Gideon
This is what I interpret to be "Anakin at his peak" (aside from him at full potential, in which Revan would be annihilated), and so I do believe that Revan would die a painful, miserable death in a lightsaber fight, or in a situation similar to Dooku's, where his skills are made irrelevent. Revan isn't miles and miles above Dooku, so if we used common logical deduction - if Anakin can render someone of Dooku's caliber (who would not be owned by Revan) a joke (as spoken by the omniscient narrator), then Anakin would do the same to Revan. Granted, it may take more effort, but Revan will die to Anakin in a swordfight, and this is simply the irrefutable case.
The point is that Anakin never reached his peak. We use ROTS as his best form for debates. Revan has clearly done and accomplished more then Anakin and several sources indicate him to be very powerful. Dooku is one very powerful individual indeed but I have provided a good case of Revan and Malak in my above post and most of those points are valid. People tend to forget that age and training of a Jedi are not the only factors that determine there capabilies as this has been proven false even in the movies and I have hinted on this in my post.

Originally posted by Gideon
However, if Revan plays smart and uses his considerable Force prowess from the beginning, I see him winning.
I agree but Revan is no less then Anakin even in Saber Combat. This is my belief and if you don't accept it and I expect this from some others as well, it is your choice. The point is that Revan and Anakin never clashed so we can't truely tell that who can win but since we can look at their accomplishments and references and adventures, we can get a perspective of how the fight can proceed.

Thanks for your particpation but really give others some space to speak as well.

Originally posted by Gideon
I didn't say that Anakin would win in a Force fight. I said he'd win in a lightsaber fight, which he would. Revan may be a lot ahead of Dooku in the Force, but there is nothing to indicate that he is so in the lightsaber skill department. Anakin would soundly kick Revan's ass in that department.

While I disagree with you there, and despite Revan being the top duelist and force user of tens of thousands, we can't really gauge his saber skill because it is, for the most part largely unknown, so I won't delve into that argument.

I'm glad to see that you don't care in regards to your "reputation" here, and I'd recommend continuing along that philisophical road, because it is beyond repair. I mean, really, you're not a debater. You're the type (with help) to be a school counselor. One minute, you're trying to be "zeh logic tiger!!" and the next you're a kitten. Do us a favor and pick one.



There you go: the fundamental flaw of debating. You're of the opinion that simply because you have an opinion that it makes you justified and - arguably - right. This isn't the case. Everyone has an opinion on every issue, and though they are welcomed to that opinion that doesn't prevent them from being wrong. If your opinion is refuted and tossed aside, it is no less of an opinion, but it is one that is factually wrong. Understand this and accept this. We're not saying that you have to get rid of your high standards for Revan or any other KotoR character, but we are saying that in most cases - facts can be proven. Basically, you can believe that "Revan > Anakin" but when more support comes for the opposition, it means you are wrong.



And those people would be wrong, as it can be proven and discounted that Vader is not the most powerful Jedi (considering how "Vader" isn't a Jedi, but a Sith) and if you are referring to Anakin - he is definately one of the most skilled and possesses the highest potential - but even then he is not "the strongest".



A regular Malak isn't on Dooku's level; hell, I can make an argument that would put him beneath Maul. Revan has "accomplished" more in terms of political and militaristic means but that doesn't make him a better fighter than Anakin. Hell, I could even point out that Anakin killed Durge - who was "virtually unstoppable" in a case even more extreme than Malak. Anakin also lacked Revan's lifetime of experience and training in the Jedi arts, as well as Revan's dabbling into the dark side. And then of course we can't even begin to say as to how tightly controlled and regulated Anakin was in comparison to Revan (through Sidious and the Jedi). I suppose since Sidious "accomplished" more than either Revan or Luke or Dooku or Yoda, he can take them all at the same time?



What you "think" and what is "real" can be called two completely different things. You think that way? Back it up.



And thanks for this senseless and irrelevent tidbit of information. Listen, son, this is an "internet forum". If someone wants some "space to speak", they are well within reason and capability to do so.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
While I disagree with you there, and despite Revan being the top duelist and force user of tens of thousands, we can't really gauge his saber skill because it is, for the most part largely unknown, so I won't delve into that argument.

That is poor reasoning; Revan's order /= Anakin's order. Anakin has a lot more competition in the saber department, such as Dooku, Mace, Yoda, and so on. So, really, DS. Revan's upper-level competition can't really compare to those three.

Originally posted by Gideon
That is poor reasoning; Revan's order /= Anakin's order. Anakin has a lot more competition in the saber department, such as Dooku, Mace, Yoda, and so on. So, really, DS. Revan's upper-level competition can't really compare to those three.

What do you mean poor reasoning? Notice how I said I can't make an argument for Revan BECAUSE he is an unknown. I recognize Anakin's order as a whole was more powerful, but that itself is hardly conclusive evidence that Anakin can beat Revan. And why can't we compare Revan and Malak to Yoda, Dooku, Mace, and Anakin? I think it's poor reasoning if you said Anakin>Revan in saber combat just BECAUSE he had more competition.

Originally posted by Advent
@ S_w_LeGo:

Be quiet, and go respond to my where I, and everyone else, kicked your ass in this thread. I don't have time to watch Barney, and play with these toy arguments you give. Let someone who's a more capable debater attempt this situation.
I conceded your points in that thread so I really don't feel the need to give a reply.

The point is that some people in other Forms changed my perception about Force Lightning.

I was among those who believed that very powerful Force Lightning can eliminate a Jedi. And I now once again believe this so it is not a big deal. People always learn from what they experience.

But so much pride is not good. You are an exceptional debator but that does not means that you are superior to others in other cases as well.

You have more sources and comics and novels of Star Wars and this is what gives you ultimate edge.

But note that not all will agree with you on every point. People tend to have different perceptions of things but that does not means that we should trash them because their views differ from ours.

In the Star Wars official forums, you will be stunned to see that so many different views exist regarding Star Wars and each person has his/her own perceptions. We can change some but not all.

Some people don't even know much about Revan there I think.

I agree with Sexy. We all know Revan would beat Anakin easily with the Force. But still we know both, Revan and Anakin, were amazingly skilled with the lightsaber as well. You cant simply say Anakin would really beat Revan by much. We know theyre amazing with the lightsaber becuz of what weve seen. For Anakin, in the movies, and for Revan in KOTOR. I mean, cmon, you cant say beatin a whole army of Dark Jedi AND Darth Malak IN the STAR FORGE while at their MAX and with the help of Bastila's battle meditation isnt somethin. Im not sayin Revan would win, but i just want to make the point that it may be quite close in terms of saber combat, anyhow.

That's not what I said. I said Escape simply misread my post. I didn't say Revan is better than Anakin because he was #1 in an order of tens of thousands. I said even with all of these advantages going to Revan, we simply don't know anything about his saber skills in comparison to the PT's top dogs.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm glad to see that you don't care in regards to your "reputation" here, and I'd recommend continuing along that philisophical road, because it is beyond repair. I mean, really, you're not a debater. You're the type (with help) to be a school counselor. One minute, you're trying to be "zeh logic tiger!!" and the next you're a kitten. Do us a favor and pick one.
What type of reaction will you expect from me when you compare me with some other debator? Of-course I won't give much attention because I cannot make my self a strong debator over night. It happens as time passes by and we get to learn more from others.

I have my strong points in some cases and also weak points in some cases. I cannot be perfect in all cases. And I won't start my self-praise to lift my image up. You don't like my views then simply don't respond.

Originally posted by Gideon
There you go: the fundamental flaw of debating. You're of the opinion that simply because you have an opinion that it makes you justified and - arguably - right. This isn't the case. Everyone has an opinion on every issue, and though they are welcomed to that opinion that doesn't prevent them from being wrong. If your opinion is refuted and tossed aside, it is no less of an opinion, but it is one that is factually wrong. Understand this and accept this. We're not saying that you have to get rid of your high standards for Revan or any other KotoR character, but we are saying that in most cases - facts can be proven. Basically, you can believe that "Revan > Anakin" but when more support comes for the opposition, it means you are wrong.
Do I force my opinion on all others? No!

I just mention my views. I hardly ever counter your opinions as you might have noted this in past few weeks but still you have your perceptions and I have mine. I sometimes however do disagree with views of others as this is part of debates but this does not means that I can change views of others forever. You should understand this that you cannot go on and dictate about what you think is true on others. I do also concede or accept points of others like I recently did in one of the threads here and thus I do think positively.

Originally posted by Gideon
And those people would be wrong, as it can be proven and discounted that Vader is not the most powerful Jedi (considering how "Vader" isn't a Jedi, but a Sith) and if you are referring to Anakin - he is definately one of the most skilled and possesses the highest potential - but even then he is not "the strongest".
If my points are proven false regarding this fight then I will accept them. I am not a fanboy of Revan and Malak to such an extent that I will not listen to what others say.

Originally posted by Gideon
A regular Malak isn't on Dooku's level; hell, I can make an argument that would put him beneath Maul. Revan has "accomplished" more in terms of political and militaristic means but that doesn't make him a better fighter than Anakin. Hell, I could even point out that Anakin killed Durge - who was "virtually unstoppable" in a case even more extreme than Malak. Anakin also lacked Revan's lifetime of experience and training in the Jedi arts, as well as Revan's dabbling into the dark side. And then of course we can't even begin to say as to how tightly controlled and regulated Anakin was in comparison to Revan (through Sidious and the Jedi). I suppose since Sidious "accomplished" more than either Revan or Luke or Dooku or Yoda, he can take them all at the same time?
If you are judging Malak's power from a game then this is wrong. Revan's power can differ in the game and with it difficulty level can also differ. Regular Malak is also very powerful as I have mentioned all details about him and they are worth reading. And strange thing is that it was regular Malak who over-powered Revan and was about to defeat him in the fight until Bastilla jumped in to save him. Remember that Nihilus is among the most powerful Sith Lords in SW history and yet we see him getting pwned in the game. This is the fault of Game Mechanics.

If Dooku will be put in a game then he will seem even less impressive because Malak knew more Sith techniques and powers then him as I made a comparison list here. Game Mechanics regarding fighting capabilities are not at all to be trusted.

And I agree that Sidious accomplished more then Revan as well. He is the most successful Sith Lord in the SW history.

Originally posted by Gideon
What you "think" and what is "real" can be called two completely different things. You think that way? Back it up.
I backed up most of my points with some sources. The posts are long but they contain good information. However there are always chances of flaws in any post made by any person.

Originally posted by Gideon
And thanks for this senseless and irrelevent tidbit of information. Listen, son, this is an "internet forum". If someone wants some "space to speak", they are well within reason and capability to do so.
Once again your biasedness against me is evident. Listen man! Internet is filled with many people and all have their perceptions and if you don't agree with others in some cases then it does not means that they suck. People always learn from experiences.

"Exceptional debating"? I spit my milk out, and was rolling on the floor, laughing my ass off at that. You sound like some corny rival in Pokémon.

Now, really nearly nothing you wrote even proves anything. You just engaged in feat wars, as well as type up a huge response against things I didn't even mention, or was trying to argue against. In reality, "exceptional debating" is every post I make, every post Gideon makes, etc. You, and "exceptional", hell even "debating" in the same sentence? Rofl.

I mean, just look at the bullshit you posted on behalf of Kavar. Not just that, but let me show what you I'm talking about:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
1. The handmaiden in KOTOR II described the fight between Revan and Malak as an Epic one. The vision of Duron Qel Droma also indicated Revan holding his ignited Light Saber and standing tall over fallen Malak. Even on official Star Wars blogs section, it was indicated in the profile entry of Revan that Revan killed Malak in a “Titanic” Duel. All these cases suggest that immense Saber Combat took place between Revan and Malak on Star Forge.

Thank you for being completely irrelevant. How does getting a description ("titantic", "epic", etc.) indicate anything about a lightsaber duel, as you said 'all these cases'? Oh? What's that? They don't?

Now, can you provide me with any proof that it was specifically, and undoubtedly just a saber duel, as Nebaris' initial post implied? Thought not, so go back to the sandlot, junior.



So, because he's merely got his lightsaber pointed down, and whatnot, it was a straight lightsaber duel? If that's the case Count Dooku never tried to assault Obi-Wan with Force lightning in AotC, simply because to anyone who saw just that part where Dooku is about to bring his blade down on Obi-Wan, it would've looked as if they were dueling the entire time.

Thanks for, again, proving nothing. For all we know, they had a huge Force battle initially, and ended it off in a short, two second samurai saber duel, or similar circumstances. We don't know what happened, and you can't make a deduction based off the evidence we currently have. Too bad, so sad.

2. The above cases suggest nothing about straightforward lightsaber combat, nor do they prove much of anything, except that the duel was seemingly close; which means that Revan didn't utterly demolish Malak.



That just furthers my point. Thanks for the support.



Wow, you're not lying at all. Let's see the quote from the databank:

"Malak was nearly unstoppable, but the Republic emerged from that epic conflict victorious, as the Star Forge was eventually destroyed."

It says "Malak", not whatever you've suggested. So, what are you smoking? Furthermore, even if it did, it really doesn't matter, because if you had any grasp over the English language (you don't), you'd know that nearly the entire paragraph was dedicated to talking about the Republic against Malak's forces, likewise, it states that the Republic won due to the fact that Star Forge was destroyed, so we can make an inference through that, that it was insinuating Malak was nigh unconquerable, because of all the support he had at his disposal (Star Forge, Bastila, etc.).



Again, you have no grasp over the English language. It's clearly indicating that the Star Forge's infinite supply of forces are what is making him "nearly unstoppable", hence the beginning, and end of the lines talking about "Republic forces", and "Malak's forces".

Even if you don't want to believe such, the quote is up for interpretation, ergo you cannot say that "Ooh! Malak himself is nearly unstoppable", and act as if it matters much, because it can be said both ways, and you can't prove yours as being absolutely correct (neither can I, but that's not what I'm trying to do anyways).

^
You see, if I want to take down your argument, I will. It's not hard, I just have to take time I'm not going to take, because in my perspective, your posts are pathetic, and the one you made in response to mine was needlessly lengthy, because it didn't prove much of anything.

In a Force fight Revan wins, but in a lightsaber only Anakin wins, regarding Dookus case, Anakin only had to decide to win against Dooku, even if Revan is better then Dooku with a blade, he cant just decide to win like Anakin did, no one except Anakin could do that.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
That's not what I said. I said Escape simply misread my post. I didn't say Revan is better than Anakin because he was #1 in an order of tens of thousands. I said even with all of these advantages going to Revan, we simply don't know anything about his saber skills in comparison to the PT's top dogs.

No, no. Srry if i didnt write things clear enough, Sexy. I never meant to say Revan is better than Anakin beacause he was no.1 in an order of tens of thousands, and i know we know nothin in comparison to the PT's dogs, im just sayin that if he did all of that, he must be pretty good handling a saber.

obviosuly VERY good

Of course he is very good, but not as good as Anakin.

Even if Revan could beat Anakin in the force department, what makes anyone here think he would? Once he entered melee, no way he could get off a force attack while in saber combat (seeing as how Dooku's force prowess was called "A joke," even though he uses Makashi, a form that leaves a hand free, for possible force attacks).
Now, why would Revan enter melee? Well, a good reason is because he doesn't know who the Hell Anakin is, and is woefully unaware of how badly he will get demolished and how quickly Anakin could be wearing his skin like a suit. I thought of another reason thanks to my good friend Nebby. He pointed out with such intensely powerful emotion and unwavering rhetoric that:

Originally posted by allfg
There's also the fact that Revan was perfectly content with going into battle with three powerful jedi with just his saber. Now we now that Revan certainly has the ability to have just taken them all out with the force, yet he was still confident enough in his saber ability to take it easy and just use his saber...

Wow. That was amazing. Basically, allfg has shown us that Revan, as a first reaction, brings out the lightsaber (also, in the picture of Revan over a defeated Malak Revan had a lightsaber out). Meaning, Anakin, as a first reaction, brings out a can of Whoop Ass.

I agree, but, Revan wouldn't go in every fight the same way.

Yes, but, that does go to show that Revan will most likely attack with his lightsaber.

Also, Anakin is fast enough to dodge some force attacks, and he has some good defence in the force.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=FZ_93owuE-o
0:45
4:29

Although this obviously isn't the best video to show Anakin being fine against force attacks; keep in mind this is while he was a Padawan. As a Knight he was much more on top of his game, judging by the fight with Dooku. This video only shows him getting hit by force attacks that are in the thick of melee, and, as a Knight, if an attempt is made at that, the attacker will lose a significant amount of... limbs.

Yes, but Asajj isn't strong in the Force as Revan.

"From the site of Anakin Slywalker's last stand, where he sought to destroy his friend and former Master, Ob1-Wan Kenobi, a fearsome specter in black has risen. Once the most powerful Knight ever known to the Jedi Order, he is now a disciple of the dark side, a lord of the dreaded Sith, and the avenging right hand of the galaxy's ruthless new Emperor."

So as far as power goes, I don't think Revan is up there with Anakin. Does he have more control over his abilities? Absolutely, but as Escape pointed out - so did Dooku. Plus Dooku had the lightsaber advantage. Anakin, at his known peak, is too much for almost anyone to deal with in an all out fight (which includes the lightsaber), so having more power or ability in the force is worthless if you cant get the opportunity to use it. But even then, honestly, we don't know the extent of Anakin's force ability because he never demonstrated it to it's highest capacity, that we know of. Just because Revan has done certain things, doesn't mean he's definitely above Anakin, although it is a strong possibility. I dunno, force fight - Revan; sabers - Anakin; all out - that can go either way, but I'm leaning towards Anakin.

The only real chance someone has using Force powers on Anakin is in the beginning of the fight, where there is some distance between opponents, but when Anakin comes close and fights with blades, your a goner, like you said(Subjekt)in some other thread, he is just to fast, combined with his raw power and physical strength, he is unstoppable.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Yes, but Asajj isn't strong in the Force as Revan.

But Dooku could be. And even if Revan was exponentially more powerful with Dooku in the force (which I would give a big "Hell No" to), it doesn't mean that he would have a chance to use his powers or that they would be much more than a nuisance to Anakin.

I would also give big Hell No to say Revan is much more powerful then Dooku and in the movie, Dooku didn't even try to use any Force powers on Anakin. Maybe if he had use them, especially in the beginning of the fight, the fight might have ended differently.

He didn't have a chance to use force attacks once Anakin got serious, and, he, like Revan (as I would imagine) prefers to enter saber combat.

Only in a lightsaber match.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
But Dooku could be. And even if Revan was exponentially more powerful with Dooku in the force (which I would give a big "Hell No" to), it doesn't mean that he would have a chance to use his powers or that they would be much more than a nuisance to Anakin.

What do you mean could be? Judging from what we know of Revan, Dooku, and other sith, the only ones that are on his level or above or Sidious and Exar Kun(excluding the ancient sith). Dooku is not anywhere near Revan's force abilities.

Because he made a holocron... or what?

Because his knowledge surpasses any other sith lord with the exception of Sidious.

Anakin would whoop Revan in a saber duel. But a Force battle would go to Revan. Overall I think its too close to call given Anakin's much superior Saber skill.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Anakin would whoop Revan in a saber duel. But a Force battle would go to Revan. Overall I think its too close to call given Anakin's much superior Saber skill.

What kind of logic is that? We don't have anything definitive on Revan's saber skill, so by default Anakin whoops him? Nevermind that Revan was #1 in his order. Nobody is disputing that there are too many sources NOT to give a saber duel to Anakin, but "whoop" is hardly the word I will use for their duel.

You stole that sig... I'm pretty sure.

Originally posted by Advent
I mean, just look at the bullshit you posted on behalf of Kavar.
Bullshit? I have posted no bullshit regarding Kavar here and most of the points are true and based on what he demonstrated in KOTOR II and some other sources. If you had played KOTOR II and also KOTOR I and paid attention to the quotes/events then you would have known what I said.

But I can make this job a little easier for you here!

Quote from KOTOR:

It was initially believed by the Mandalorians that Kavar, the "famed Jedi Guardian" will lead the Jedi to help Republic during the Mandalorian Wars.

From KOTOR II:

A Jedi Master once said this about Kavar: "It was Kavar's plan—he was always the greatest tactician among us. And had seen more war than the rest of us."

From this comment, it is evident that Kavar was an intelligent person and was also very experienced as he participated in more battles then all other Jedi Masters of his age. Kavar was also known to have fought in the Great Sith War of Exar Kun. His popularity was so high that Mandalorians believed that Kavar will actually lead the Jedi to help Republic during the Mandalorian War before the events of JCW.

When Jedi Exile meets Kavar, he instructs her about all Saber Forms. He is an expert in Saber Combat as he is the battlemaster of the Old Republic and trained many Jedi in Saber Combat. And he mastered following Saber Styles: Ataru, Shien, Niman and Juyo. he also was a practitioner of Jar Kai. All this is evident from the game itself.

Regarding his help to Exile, he helped Exile by eliminating several enemies during the unrest in Onderon.

Contrary to all this I have not seen much from Cin Drallig. He was known to have mastered Form I and Form VI and thats it. And Dralling did not held a reputation of an intelligent person like Kavar and did not participated in any major war that would give him some real experience in combat. So it is safe to rate Kavar higher then Dralling in all categories.

Originally posted by Advent
Thank you for being completely irrelevant. How does getting a description ("titantic", "epic", etc.) indicate anything about a lightsaber duel, as you said 'all these cases'? Oh? What's that? They don't?
In the official blogs

Now, can you provide me with any proof that it was specifically, and undoubtedly just a saber duel, as Nebaris' initial post implied? Thought not, so go back to the sandlot, junior.
Trying to be smart! huh!

It was actually stated in the Malak's profile in the official Star Wars Blogs section that Revan killed Malak in a "titanic duel". Now what does the word "duel" tells you? It gives an expression that a saber duel took place between Revan and Malak and the word titanic suggests that it was an "epic" duel. And last time I checked, the word "duel" is used to describe a Saber duel in case of fights between Jedi.

This case does indicate that an epic duel took place between Revan and Malak.

Originally posted by Advent
So, because he's merely got his lightsaber pointed down, and whatnot, it was a straight lightsaber duel? If that's the case Count Dooku never tried to assault Obi-Wan with Force lightning in AotC, simply because to anyone who saw just that part where Dooku is about to bring his blade down on Obi-Wan, it would've looked as if they were dueling the entire time.
I never suggested that Revan and Malak were dueling there all the time, but an epic duel did took place between them as indicated from the above case. Now the image of Revan with ignited Light Saber also gives an impression that a saber clash took place between him and Malak because there was no other valid reason for Revan to ignite his Light Saber. A Jedi always ignites his Light Saber when he is about to engage in a duel against his opponent. This is a matter of common sense.

Originally posted by Advent
Thanks for, again, proving nothing. For all we know, they had a huge Force battle initially, and ended it off in a short, two second samurai saber duel, or similar circumstances. We don't know what happened, and you can't make a deduction based off the evidence we currently have. Too bad, so sad.
About which fight are you talking about here? If you are refering to clash between Revan and Malak then I know that we can't tell with 100% accuracy that what actually happened during their fight but as indicated from a case mentioned above, it is to some extent clear that an epic duel did took place between Revan and Malak.

Originally posted by Advent
2. The above cases suggest nothing about straightforward lightsaber combat, nor do they prove much of anything, except that the duel was seemingly close; which means that Revan didn't utterly demolish Malak.
I agree that Malak was not utterly demolished as he was very powerful and well prepared and could not be utterly demolished at Star Forge.

But then again the above cases do suggest that a Saber duel took place between Revan and Malak and one case suggests that it was a "titanic duel" or an "Epic duel" and thus we have an indication of some sort.

Originally posted by Advent
That just furthers my point. Thanks for the support.
You did not even understood what I said and you declared that it furthers your point. Over-smartness teads to fallacy.

What I said that it was not stated in the SW Databank that "Malak's Forces were nearly unstoppable." and what was actually stated in the SW Databank is that "Malak was nearly unstoppable". The choice of words are clear here. Terms such as "Malak" and "Malak's Forces" are not the same thing. When you use word "Malak", then you are talking about him and not about his Forces. This is a matter of common sense.

Originally posted by Advent
Wow, you're not lying at all. Let's see the quote from the databank:

"Malak was nearly unstoppable, but the Republic emerged from that epic conflict victorious, as the Star Forge was eventually destroyed."

It says "Malak", not whatever you've suggested. So, what are you smoking? Furthermore, even if it did, it really doesn't matter, because if you had any grasp over the English language (you don't), you'd know that nearly the entire paragraph was dedicated to talking about the Republic against Malak's forces, likewise, it states that the Republic won due to the fact that Star Forge was destroyed, so we can make an inference through that, that it was insinuating Malak was nigh unconquerable, because of all the support he had at his disposal (Star Forge, Bastila, etc.).
The word "he" can be used for referring to "Malak" when we are talking about him. And they used the term "Malak was nearly unstoppable" and not the term "Malak's Forces were nearly unstoppable". And then they proceeded towards a bigger picture of the event by stating that Republic emerged victorious from the conflict without even mentioning the details about Revan's clash with an entire Sith Army, facing Bastilla and then finally defeating the Dark Lord inside the Star Forge itself. They are not mentioning the whole story there so your supposition becomes invalid.

Originally posted by Advent
Again, you have no grasp over the English language. It's clearly indicating that the Star Forge's infinite supply of forces are what is making him "nearly unstoppable", hence the beginning, and end of the lines talking about "Republic forces", and "Malak's forces".
And you think that only you have good grasp over English, which is a wrong assumption. What about the Malak's own preparations inside the Star Forge to make him nearly unstoppable? Malak was controlling the Star Forge itself. The Star Forge did what he intended it to do and he fully prepared himself for the un-avoidable clash with Revan.

The things that were making Malak himself nearly unstoppable are:

- The help of Star Forge itself.
- The strong presense of Dark Side on Star Forge that fueled his power.
- The captured Jedi he kept in his chamber (for feeding or Draining purposes) during the fight to replenish his energies if necessary.

Now Star Forge was indeed churning out end-less supply of ships as well but that suggested the case of making "Malak's Forces nearly unstoppable" and not the Malak himself. The ships were aiding Malak's Forces outside the Star Forge and they were obviously not helping Malak during his fight against Revan. So you supposition is only partly true and not fully true as I used the choice of words used in the SW Databank and some other missing details (from the Databank) to explain the whole sittuation to back my case. So much for your proficiency in English.

Originally posted by Advent
Even if you don't want to believe such, the quote is up for interpretation, ergo you cannot say that "Ooh! Malak himself is nearly unstoppable", and act as if it matters much, because it can be said both ways, and you can't prove yours as being absolutely correct (neither can I, but that's not what I'm trying to do anyways).
My above case solves the issue regarding Malak making himself nearly unstoppable. It seems that you obviously have not played KOTOR before coming out and out-rightly declaring your suppositions as fully true. I have proved your case to be weak already.

Originally posted by Advent
^
You see, if I want to take down your argument, I will. It's not hard, I just have to take time I'm not going to take, because in my perspective, your posts are pathetic, and the one you made in response to mine was needlessly lengthy, because it didn't prove much of anything.
huh!

You did destroyed my argument in one thread but this does not means that you can do this in all cases and subjects. Thanks for your in-complete analysis of the situation in this thread.

I'll get to that later, LeGenD, but I can tell you from only addressing the first part that argument is horribly faulty, and riddled with idiocy. But, meh, enough talk. Look for a response when I get back from work.

Dueling does not always mean you fight with swords this and that. For example legend if i were to duel you, it means i could duel you in a debate, in singing or wrestling ^.~

Now a duel in starwars does not always mean a "clash of sabers". It could mean a force fight as well

Originally posted by Kadesh
Dueling does not always mean you fight with swords this and that. For example legend if i were to duel you, it means i could duel you in a debate, in singing or wrestling ^.~

Now a duel in starwars does not always mean a "clash of sabers". It could mean a force fight as well
hmm!

But the vision of Duron does indicates that a Saber clash took place between them. Anyways! I will soon know the answer as I have asked the relevant KOTOR author about this and am waiting for his response.

Well the vision seems credible, cept for the armour cuz it was stated ingame that revans robes was destroyed

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
hmm!

But the vision of Duron does indicates that a Saber clash took place between them. Anyways! I will soon know the answer as I have asked the relevant KOTOR author about this and am waiting for his response.


Where? I only saw Revan standing over Malak's body with his saber ignited, it's not like he would have it turned off just because he wanted to use the force as well...

Originally posted by Advent
Wow, mommy, Revan might have mastered one or two more forms than Anakin Skywalker! That means jack shit.



Ooh, a Prodigal Knight? I want to be a Prodigal Knight, but then again, what does "proving to be a Prodigal Knight" have to do with this discussion?

Anakin proved his worth by defeating Count Dooku on the Invisible Hand, and he could very well be the numero uno swordsman in a stronger Jedi Order of thousands (as well as the galaxy), and even if wouldn't consider him as such, whomever is ahead of him is more adept, and more skilled than Revan, or Malak (e.g. Yoda, Mace).

But, then again none of that matters, because Revan is a Prodigal Knight.



No, Anakin can take him in bladed combat, him being a Prodigal Knight doesn't change that.

Ooo...I think someones in love...

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/899/anakinvo4.th.jpg

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Bullshit? I have posted no bullshit regarding Kavar here

Obviously you've misinterpreted "bullshit", as something false, when all I meant was that it was: a) irrelevant, and b) doesn't prove a damn thing. For example,

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Then kavar instructed Jedi Exile in the arts of Saber Combat and she turned out to be one of the most successful fighters in her age and also helped her in difficult situations during fights.

Kavar was also known to practise Force Lightning (even as a Jedi). I would rate Kavar much higher then Dralling.

Do you realize how ****ing stupid that sounds? For one, if you're going to make a claim about a person, at least prove up on it. Where does it state Kavar knows Force lightning, as no source I've seen indicates such? Then, I'd like you to tell me who gives a shit if he instructed the Exile, because Drallig instructed several students, as he was the head lightsaber instructor. And guess what? Two of his students just happen to be considered the greatest Jedi team ever to grace the galaxy, Anakin Skywalker, and Obi-Wan Kenobi (source: Casualty Report: Order 66). So, your point really holds no water.

Cin is also said to be fully trained in all forms of bladed combat, save for Vaapad ("although well versed in nearly all styles of the lightsaber, except for Form VII..."; Visual Dictionary, p. 33), and on top of that, he's noted as being "one of the Order's top swordsmen", yet Anakin took him out in a few swings, even with using the other hand to manually choke the padawan.

It's even noted that "Drallig's skills marked him as a priority target for elimination by Lord Vader". Now, I don't even know where you got the impression I was arguing that Cin > Kavar, but it looks like your case for proving the opposite sucks. You have no real evidence suggesting Kavar was better, nor "much higher" in the rankings. Try again, chump change.

The entire reason I even mentioned Cin was to show just how dominate Anakin is in lightsaber combat, even against a man considered to be one of the best, knows multiple forms, and said to be able to take down Grievous. You took my post out of context, and argued against something non-existent.



Except, again, they prove literally nothing.



I own KotOR 2, but that's irrelevant, I don't have to have it in my possession, or even play it. It's your job to provide strong evidence to back up your assertions, and the like. Not mine to replay a sub par game.



That's wonderful, we've seen intelligent Jedi masters who haven't seen much combat at all, your point? How does being a strategist on the battle field account for jack shit when comparing him with another being? Again, nothing.

In reality, just because someone was mentioned as "intelligent" doesn't really mean too much; Darth Vader (OT) was intelligent, but would be decimated by the top dogs of the PT in a saber battle.



Oh my Buddha, what does that prove? It only shows that he's more well experienced, but as we know, experience hasn't had too much of an impact on the outcome of duels (see: Vodo/Kun, Odan/Kun, Anakin/Dooku, etc.), nor does it prove he's powerful. Tott "Small fry" Doneeta fought in the Great Sith War, too, is he more powerful than Drallig, FFS?



Thanks for repeating yourself. I think I disregarded it the first time for a reason. Drallig skill was so great that he was said to be able to take down General Grievous, a man who's killed more Jedi than Kavar has digits.



Thanks for repeating yourself. I think I covered this above, but for kicks, I'll tell you that Cin was also the Battle master of the "Golden Age of the Jedi", an expert in almost all forms (except Vaapad), and has taught said forms to thousands of students. All this is evident from actual source material.



Wow, he defeated some guards! "OMFGKAVAR=GOD".



You haven't even shown any evidence that Kavar's better, except for opinions, and beliefs (not factual), miscellaneous shit like "he taught Exile!" (big ****ing deal), and that he mastered some forms. Now, compare this to narration telling us how good Cin is, reputable masters commenting on his skill, and other things. Even if he's not that much greater (though, he intuitively is), it's apparent that he, at the very least, rivals him. Not that any of that was the point, though.



See above; you're lying, and/or uninformed.



And this is indicative that Drallig is lower than Kavar in dueling prowess? No, it's not. We can deduce that Drallig is wise, otherwise he wouldn't be instructing students whatsoever.



No, it is safe to say you're a biased KotOR fanboy, and that you have no idea what you're talking about. You've haven't provided a decent quantity (or even any) amount of viable evidence, and the things you've written don't put Kavar on a higher level than Cin, anyways.



I don't try, son. As much is apparent through my days here. If I was "trying to be smart", then I'd been using someone else's vocabulary; which is something I've noticed you to be doing lately.



duel, n.

A prearranged, formal combat between two persons, usually fought to settle a point of honor.

I don't know how you automatically think "it was a lightsaber duel!", simply because the last part of the word is in there. For example,

"The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides." (Yoda, Star Wars databank).

Now, as we know, Yoda and Sidious' battle in RotS was not purely a lightsaber duel, nor was the majority of it involving lightsabers. Despite this, it's still noted as a "duel", ergo you're entire premise is faulty.

A duel by definition, even Star Wars definition, isn't 3/4 lightsaber combat, or a full on bladed battle, it's just two people trying to kill each other. If we believed what you say to be true, Yoda and Palpatine must've not battled using the Force. I mean, you do realize back in olden times, a duel was settled with guns? Alexander Hamilton, and Aaron Burr ring a bell?



Well, then you need to check again, because you've been "examination" was disproved; see above, chump change.

And you don't need to continuously tell me things that aren't really relevant, or have already been addressed (i.e. "epic", etc.). You sound like a broken record.



But, that's not what I asked, so try again, chump change. If you need some refreshing, I asked: how does getting a description ("titantic", "epic", etc.) indicate anything about a lightsaber duel, as you said 'all these cases'? Oh? What's that? They don't?

Indeed, mere description imply absolutely zilch in regards to what type of combat took place, which was my point, and the point that completely flew over your head like Superman.



So, then, why did you respond to when I asked Nebaris if it was a straight lightsaber duel, as his post insuiated?



If you seriously say that one more time, I'm going to reach through my monitor, and kick your ass. What relevance does this have, at all? The only thing it seemingly means is that it wasn't a squash match, which says that Revan didn't win easily; so, it's rather irrelevant to bring up. My original point regarding by what margin did Revan defeat him was more or less to say that we can't say it was the aforementioned (a slaughter).

No one ever denied anything like that, so thanks for again, typing up a response for things of which I wasn't arguing. This is my point, you're completely off point.

And this seems to be a strawman argument, anyways, which would be a logical fallacy, try again.



No one ever denied anything like that, so thanks for again, typing up a response for things of which I wasn't arguing. This is my point, you're completely off point.



http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/3466/brokenrecordlc6.png

^
That's you.

Now, I think we get the point it was "epic", "super special awesome", "Grammy Award winning", but to get to the crux, nothing implies that it was a long lightsaber battle, I could even have the assumption that it was more of a samurai, two second clash, with the rest being a Force battle, and seeing as we cannot make any correct, or absolute assumption on the matter, aside from the fact that - at one point - it was more likely to have involved lightsabers. For how long, you can't answer, and neither can I. So, the point doesn't hold much water.



They do not, however, suggests how long, or how much involvement sabers had during the battle. And, from a simple picture like that, there's absolutely zero indication of that, you cannot even deduce from any of the "evidence" you have.



See above; addressed, and for all we know, it was, like I said, a two second Samurai-esque clash, which could still be considered "epic", and "titantic", because the Force could've been involved, The mere words don't say anything about a saber battle, so stop while you're behind.



There's no fallacy here, and you have no understanding of the term "fallacy", otherwise you'd realize how fallacious half of your arguments are.



Except I did understand (not "understood", you primitive buffoon) your point. It does help support my perspective due to the fact that you proclaimed he did have a battalion that would make him "invincible". Now, it helps my point, because when you refer to someone, even with using their name, and not their entire organization, you can still be including that organization, or basing your conclusion off such.

Look at when history books refer to Adolf Hitler as "unstoppable", just Google it. You'll see such terms like that, or similar phrases, even when only referring to Hitler, however, he's only "unstoppable", and the like because of his forces, and such. You honestly think the nations of the world couldn't take down one single Nazi? Rofl. Go ask your English teacher, and I guarantee he'll tell you that you're completely wrong.



You just don't know how to properly type out what's in your head. Let's take a look at what you said:

S_W_RejEct: But SW Databank also used word “he” when referring to Malak , when using the term “nearly unstoppable”.

Now, if you knew English, you'd realize that by you putting the pronoun in quotations, and noting that that's what the databank said, that you are saying that's what it says. Again, you just prove how idiotic you are.




Why are you making things up? When have I ever stated that "only" I have a decent understanding of the language? Oh? What's that? I haven't? And you're just talking out of your ass? When compared to you, though, I will say that you look like a third grader.



"The Malak's"? Lol. I didn't realize this was a sitcom.



Again, if you could understand that in certain texts, the meaning of the subject doesn't always need to be identified precisely. Almost the entire passage is dedicated to talking about how the Republic was engaged in combat with Malak (see what I did there? It's still completely proper, yet I didn't say "Malak's forces".



Except that isn't the point, nor is the duel itself so much as directly mentioned in the entire paragraph (although, it notes what he did).



I'd advise you to stop looking up words in the dictionary, as the fact that you can't spell properly when it comes to simple words, or sentence structure seems to me to be a case of quasi-intellectualism (I mean, you continually use the word 'supposition', the fact you just started uses it, and use it often allude to that).

Anyways, I've addressed this above. I also want to make note that you constantly repeat yourself when you could easily address a point, albeit incorrectly, without the lengthy, repetitive response. It's quite annoying. I know that you want your posts to look, and feel like they're superior, but they're really not. I admit my posts are long, outside of this, but I usually don't repeat myself unless need be (or it's a different post).



What's that supposed to mean? You didn't even prove anything, and you really can't beat me. So much for your "EXCEPTIONAL DEBATING SKILLZ!!1111!ONEELEVEN!!". Tool.



No, it doesn't. I'm glad you like to believe that it does, but we don't live in a fantasy world where the biggest dumbass rules.



Take your own advice. I've played both games in the KotOR series, if you don't believe me, I'll scan the damn game (hell, I have both the PC version, and Xbox version of the sequel).

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/840/lastscanwl8.th.png

Do you need me to take a picture playing the game while in a thong before you realize that the assumptions you make are completely idiotic, and aren't even backed up?

Oh, and I'd take your statement into consideration for your own self, if I were you, seeing as it certainly doesn't apply to me.



No, it doesn't. I'm glad you like to believe that it does, but we don't live in a fantasy world where the biggest dumbass rules.



1. You're clearly lying; see above.

2. Don't even say anything like that again. You've yet to earn the rights to be able to claim something like that on here (not that you ever will, though).

3. You're an idiot.

Originally posted by Advent

Do you need me to take a picture playing the game while in a thong before you realize that the assumptions you make are completely idiotic, and aren't even backed up?



Yeah, I'll challange that.

I don't think Advent could post a picture of her doing that while playing the game.

Originally posted by Advent
No one ever denied anything like that, so thanks for again, typing up a response for things of which I wasn't arguing. This is my point, you're completely off point.

And this seems to be a strawman argument, anyways, which would be a logical fallacy, try again.
No one ever denied? that comment of mine cannot be denied as it suggests that a saber clash did took place between Revan and Malak though for how long, it is questionable. Your declaration regarding this comment being a fallacy is not going to help.

You are just picking out my lines related to a single case and trying to pose smart by declaring them invalid or completely off. Clearly you don't seem mature enough to me now.

Originally posted by Advent
No one ever denied anything like that, so thanks for again, typing up a response for things of which I wasn't arguing. This is my point, you're completely off point.



http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/3466/brokenrecordlc6.png

^
That's you.
And showing stupid pictures is going to help you in debate? It seems amusing and entertaining to some but not me. I can post some pics like these two.

Just picking up lines related to a certain case and stating that no one denied that is going to help you? I don't think so because you are now trying to destroy the momentum of this debate by showing silly pics and posing to be smart. Once again a sign of immaturity.

Originally posted by Advent
Now, I think we get the point it was "epic", "super special awesome", "Grammy Award winning", but to get to the crux, nothing implies that it was a long lightsaber battle, I could even have the assumption that it was more of a samurai, two second clash, with the rest being a Force battle, and seeing as we cannot make any correct, or absolute assumption on the matter, aside from the fact that - at one point - it was more likely to have involved lightsabers. For how long, you can't answer, and neither can I. So, the point doesn't hold much water.
It was an epic clash and what happened in it is not fully confirmed yet. What you are posting is also an assumption just like mine and your case does not gets any better here.

You say that it was most of the time a Force contest between Revan and Malak and then only in the end it leads to a small Saber duel. Tell me what credibilty does your supposition holds in this case? Zero.

Originally posted by Advent
They do not, however, suggests how long, or how much involvement sabers had during the battle. And, from a simple picture like that, there's absolutely zero indication of that, you cannot even deduce from any of the "evidence" you have.
I will soon get an indication from Drew. Until then I won't argue more in this case. That PIC (which was actually a part of vision of a Jedi) showed Revan holding an ignited Saber in his hand and that was for what reason? for amusement or enjoyment purposes?

It suggested that Revan had a Saber clash with Malak and Malak was defeated in a Saber clash by Revan and he fell before Revan's feet. You have zero credibility once again in this comment.

Originally posted by Advent
See above; addressed, and for all we know, it was, like I said, a two second Samurai-esque clash, which could still be considered "epic", and "titantic", because the Force could've been involved, The mere words don't say anything about a saber battle, so stop while you're behind.
See what? your stupid logics and declarations above?

Those mere words do not directly indicate about a Saber clash but that vision does suggests that a Saber clash took place between them in which Malak was finally defeated and fell while Revan's saber was still ignited.

Originally posted by Advent
There's no fallacy here, and you have no understanding of the term "fallacy", otherwise you'd realize how fallacious half of your arguments are.
Your display of immaturity above and also your own assumptions that also have not better credibility the mine also solidify your case of being a failure.

Originally posted by Advent
Except I did understand (not "understood", you primitive buffoon) your point. It does help support my perspective due to the fact that you proclaimed he did have a battalion that would make him "invincible". Now, it helps my point, because when you refer to someone, even with using their name, and not their entire organization, you can still be including that organization, or basing your conclusion off such.
Did the SW Databank mentioned about Malak's Battalion or something in that profile when making a term "Malak was unstoppable"? No.

They were talking about Malak and ended the details with a bigger picture in the end by stating that Republic emerged victorious. Many details are missing in the lines stated in Malak's profile.

Now this line can have multiple perspectives and I did not declared your perspective to be false and did called it partly true.

The line "Malak was nearly unstoppable" can indicate multiple perspectives and some of them are:

A) That Malak was nearly unstoppable due to his able leadership and his powerful military forces. This is one perspective.

B) Malak himself was nearly unstoppable because he controlled the Star Forge itself and because of the advantages it gave him and prepared well for his possible clash with his ultimate enemy (namely Revan) and being confident that he along with the help of Star Forge will stop Revan. This is a second perspective.

You cannot declare the second perspective false just because you share a different perspective. People have different perceptions about the samething.

Originally posted by Advent
Look at when history books refer to Adolf Hitler as "unstoppable", just Google it. You'll see such terms like that, or similar phrases, even when only referring to Hitler, however, he's only "unstoppable", and the like because of his forces, and such. You honestly think the nations of the world couldn't take down one single Nazi? Rofl. Go ask your English teacher, and I guarantee he'll tell you that you're completely wrong.
I don't have to look at history books as I know my stuff to some extent. Hitler's case might be similar to Malak but we know that Hitler himself was not as powerful as Malak and had no rival like Revan to come and face him in a single combat. His case differs a bit and in Hitler's case you can use only a single perspective to determine his case of being unstoppable and that is because of his forces. In Malak's case you can see that Malak was much more capable of defending himself then Hitler and prepared himself to such an extent with the help of a super weapon called Star Forge, that he became nearly unstoppable inside the Star Forge. Since you have played the game, you failed to notice that how much more difficult was for us to defeat Malak on Star Forge and Malak fought much harder and we had to use support of various medical equipment to keep us going. Now in reality Revan obviously did not need to use such equipment because he was very powerful but we do get an indication from the game itself that Malak fought lot harder on Star Forge then he did on Leviathan and it was due to the preparations he made with support of Star Forge to make himself nealy unstoppable. And Hitler did not had Star Forge at his disposal to boost his personal power and abilities.

Do me a favour and stop arguing further because you are making no progress in this debate apart from some assumptions that you are making and thinking that only your assumptions are true.

Originally posted by Advent
You just don't know how to properly type out what's in your head. Let's take a look at what you said:

S_W_RejEct: But SW Databank also used word “he” when referring to Malak , when using the term “nearly unstoppable”.

Now, if you knew English, you'd realize that by you putting the pronoun in quotations, and noting that that's what the databank said, that you are saying that's what it says. Again, you just prove how idiotic you are.
And you think that by refering to my past errors is going to help your case? I think that you don't have enough sense to even think that it can be grammatical error from a person which would not be intended by the debator. I typed he in a hurry and then realized after some time that I could not edit my post due to very short editing time. You are immature in my eyes now. Others might hold high opinions regarding you because of your knowledge but I have got to see a little different picture of your mentality.

Originally posted by Advent
Why are you making things up? When have I ever stated that "only" I have a decent understanding of the language? Oh? What's that? I haven't? And you're just talking out of your ass? When compared to you, though, I will say that you look like a third grader.
Your pride and openly verbal appreciation of yourself is what led me to make this comment. You over-pride yourself.

Originally posted by Advent
"The Malak's"? Lol. I didn't realize this was a sitcom.
Stop being an immature. I know that it can be written as (Malaks') but I have my own choice of things. We are not discussing grammatical mistakes here.

Originally posted by Advent
Again, if you could understand that in certain texts, the meaning of the subject doesn't always need to be identified precisely. Almost the entire passage is dedicated to talking about how the Republic was engaged in combat with Malak (see what I did there? It's still completely proper, yet I didn't say "Malak's forces".
It can have multiple meanings like I pointed out above. There is no hard and fast rules about words being used in SW Databank that they always have precise meanings. A small term does not gives us a big/full picture about a thing or event until a better and more precise picture regarding an event is openly stated.

Compare these two terms now:

- Malak was unstoppable. (This term can have multiple meanings because of a usage of a single noun that refers to a single entity or character and the comment is not precise in nature.)

- But Republic emerged victorious. (Now this term has precise meaning as it is pointing towards an entity called "Republic" as a whole and it is not the name of a single character.)

The second term clearly hints on Republic Forces that were engaged with Sith Forces as a whole and not Malak alone. The first term does not clearly hints on Malak's Forces but focuses on Malak himself. Now I have a strong case backing up that Malak himself also prepared for an in-evitable clash with Revan to such an extent with help of Star Forge that he was also nearly unstoppable. And I have described this case before in detail.

Originally posted by Advent
Except that isn't the point, nor is the duel itself so much as directly mentioned in the entire paragraph (although, it notes what he did).
You haven't proved anything apart from stating your point of view. Your point of view is correct in its own way but my point of view is also correct in its own way as I am making use of those details that are missing in the SW Databank to further my case.

Originally posted by Advent
I'd advise you to stop looking up words in the dictionary, as the fact that you can't spell properly when it comes to simple words, or sentence structure seems to me to be a case of quasi-intellectualism (I mean, you continually use the word 'supposition', the fact you just started uses it, and use it often allude to that).
Dictionary is an important tool in understanding the meanings of words. You should know about its importance as you are a grown-up person now. A same sentence (unless precise in its meaning) regarding an event can have multiple meanings, especially if other missing details related to it are present and reinforce/address its nature and meaning.

Originally posted by Advent
Anyways, I've addressed this above. I also want to make note that you constantly repeat yourself when you could easily address a point, albeit incorrectly, without the lengthy, repetitive response. It's quite annoying. I know that you want your posts to look, and feel like they're superior, but they're really not. I admit my posts are long, outside of this, but I usually don't repeat myself unless need be (or it's a different post).
You haven't addressed anything apart from stating your point of view about certain terms that I mentioned here. Once again! you are not what you think you are. Stop being a dolt and try to understand the perceptions of others regarding same things that can differ from yours. You are not the only smart one in this world who is all-knowing.

Originally posted by Advent
What's that supposed to mean? You didn't even prove anything, and you really can't beat me. So much for your "EXCEPTIONAL DEBATING SKILLZ!!1111!ONEELEVEN!!". Tool.
I am not here to beat you and just stating my judgements about things and trying to explain you that peceptions about same things can differ from yours and can be correct at the sametime. And your display of immaturity in certain cases or shall I say "Girlish Behaviour" is not going to help your case when debating with me. Try to me more mature next time and read and understand what a specific line stated here is related to what case.

Those 3 cases are the only hints available regarding the Revan vs Malak case and each of them give a little different perspective about the same fight but one case does indicate that a saber clash did took place between them.

Originally posted by Advent
No, it doesn't. I'm glad you like to believe that it does, but we don't live in a fantasy world where the biggest dumbass rules.
Your case does not either. Same advice for you.

Originally posted by Advent
Take your own advice. I've played both games in the KotOR series, if you don't believe me, I'll scan the damn game (hell, I have both the PC version, and Xbox version of the sequel).

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/840/lastscanwl8.th.png

Do you need me to take a picture playing the game while in a thong before you realize that the assumptions you make are completely idiotic, and aren't even backed up?

Oh, and I'd take your own statement into considering for yourself, if I were you, seeing as it certainly doesn't apply to me.
Well you played them indeed but do not understand the events in them in a manner that I do. Take an advice: Keep your judgments in your brain and when you will learn to accept and understand views of others then come back and talk further.

Originally posted by Advent
No, it doesn't. I'm glad you like to believe that it does, but we don't live in a fantasy world where the biggest dumbass rules.



1. You're clearly lying; see above.

2. Don't even say anything like that again. You've yet to earn the rights to be able to claim something like that on here (not that you ever will, though).

3. You're an idiot.
I am not lying and you are being immature here. Anyways! I am off to sleep and will reply further tomorrow.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No one ever denied? that comment of mine cannot be denied as it suggests that a saber clash did took place between Revan and Malak though for how long, it is questionable.

You don't even make sense, Legend. In all honestly the above sentence(s?) are really confusing. Now, don't take that as "lol advent u r teh stoopid cuz u dunt undstand!", you should note that I'm saying it, because it's completely void of sense.

I said that no one ever denied they saber dueled, so why do you continuously bring it up? I even mentioned that it indicates they battled with blades, but again, not for how long, or what happened with them. This is why I say you're off the point.



Actually, it only furthers the fact that you like to twist arguments around, and defeat nonexistent ones, such as the one that I was responding to.



Legend, you're the only pseudo intellectual here, that much is apparent. If you honestly believe I'm "trying to pose smart", then you're even denser than I thought. Take a look at my debating history, you troll.

The reason that I would pass them off as invalid is explained, so you can stop while you're behind, and no lines you write later do anything to change that they (as its own statement) are wrong, regardless.



Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.



I was posting a picture relevant to the discussion. You constantly repeat yourself, when you could really address the points (or attempt to, rather) on a singular level without all the lengthy, repetitive responses, which are made in an effort to make them seem "superior" to mine, or others, when they really aren't.



Right, because that's all I've done. Please don't lecture me on how to debate, or how to respond.

The fact of the matter is, there's absolutely no reason for you to state things that I'm not arguing, and the fact that you continue to do such, is indicative of a strawman argument, which as pointed out, is fallacious. When something is "fallacious", that usually means that there should be no continuance of said something, yet you do it. Over, and over again.

These "single & certain cases" you refer to don't add to the discussion whatsoever.



Originally posted by Advent
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/3466/brokenrecordlc6.png

^
That's you.



You see, the entire purpose of me making an assumption like that wasn't to necessarily say that it's absolute, or correct. Originally, it was to demonstrate the fact that we don't know what went on, and was for Nebaris' comment regarding the duel, then you later tried to respond to my argument on that, and made it seem as if you wholeheartedly agree that it was a straight lightsaber duel, or at least, the majority of it. You, as usual (see: Kavar/Drallig), took my post entirely out of context.

Seeing as you, yourself, have said that "we don't know what happened" (paraphrased), it means that my initial claims were correct. If you'll note, I say things like "specifically a saber duel", or ask "just a saber duel, as Nebaris' initial post implied?". If that doesn't tell you that I wasn't questioning the fact there were lightsabers involved, then you're an idiot.



This is exactly what I'm talking about. The perfect example of why I consider you pathetic, and why I continually say that you take things out of context, and twist them around, so as it seems you defeat my argument (otherwise known as a "strawman argument", which renders this portion void, so unlucky).

Review my rebuttal carefully, I'll highlight in bold what I'm referring to, so as you don't continue to do this:

Originally posted by Advent
Thanks for, again, proving nothing. For all we know, they had a huge Force battle initially, and ended it off in a short, two second samurai saber duel, or similar circumstances. We don't know what happened.

I use words like "for all we know", which means that we really don't know what happened (as stated at the end), yet to say that they dueled for x amount of time, or that it was a straightforward lightsaber battle (as both Nebaris', and your post implied) is ridiculous, at best. I never claimed that the examples I've given of what could've happened were right, it wasn't even the point I was trying to make.

I seriously do hope that you can understand this, as you constantly are doing the aforementioned actions, and not listening to a damn word I'm saying.



Oh my frickin' days, are you seriously that dense?

Originally posted by Advent
No one ever denied anything like that, so thanks for again, typing up a response for things of which I wasn't arguing. This is my point, you're completely off point.

And this seems to be a strawman argument, anyways, which would be a logical fallacy, try again.