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Hi guys I'm new around here, but i have a problem that is annoying me so much that it is literally keeping me up at night. I've recently started collecting comics, (and generally prefer Marvel comics) but after seeing the Superman movie i have gained sort of obsession. I know a little about physics, and It REALLY REALLY bugs me about Superman's powers especially seeing as hes a pseudo scientific character. The bit that bothers me the most is the energy crisis scenario. How was he able to gain the amount of energy needed to lift NEW krypton in the space of about two seconds. If plants could absorb that much solar energy in a minute, are problems with fossil fuels would be solved by literally cultivating weeds as energy sources. We could literally power space ships with daffodils by the types of energies proposed by Superman returns. I know its only a comics and I'm acting really sad, but i cant see why they don't just redesign his powers again. They did it when they decided that gravity did provide a suitable explanation, why not do it again. Does anyone have any thoughts on how he can absorb so much solar energy in a short space of time ? I heard that he maybe attracts light like a magnet ? Can anyone confirm this ?

Its a comic I assume he has like 150% efficiency of solar energy absorbtion.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Its a comic I assume he has like 150% efficiency of solar energy absorbtion.

He'd have to have 150 , 000000000 % efficiency !

I found this on another forum, what do you think ?

For a light hearted discussion:
http://science.slashdot.org/science/06/07/07/0056200.shtml

Superman Returns has renewed my interest in Superman.

Superman has been my least favorite superhero. He is too powerful and does not have sufficient vulnerabilities.

However, in reviewing Superman I and II in preparation for Returns, my view is changing.

Probably due to the Star Wars influence of the late 70's, the first two Superman movies with Reeve emphasized the sci-fi, alien culture aspect of Superman.

The voice overs in Superman I & II by Jor-El (Brando) clearly describe the nature of Kryptonians- "1000's of years more advanced" than humans, " dense molecular structure" vs humans, and the depiction of Kryptonians as glowing, god-like beings in the homeworld sequences.

This canon, coupled with the added abilities demonstrated in Superman II by the evil Kryptonians (emitting tractor beams from their fingers), clearly shows that Kryptonians are highly advanced Q-like (Trek) beings, though not quite the level of omnipotence as Trek's Q.

I never bought the "red sun/yellow sun" baloney as the source (at least a portion) of Superman's powers on Earth, which doesn't explain how he can fly though space at superluminal speed without any external artificial assistance (a ship, etc), far away from Earth's sun. Plus, recall that Krypton is in another *galaxy*, not merely another star in the Milky Way- a ridiculous distance to travel, farther than the capabilities established in Trek or Star Wars.

So, my current take on Superman is that Krypton natives are hyper-advanced beings, similar to the Metrons/ Organians/ Q of Trek, either enhanced through evolution and/or technology/ biotech modifications over time. They are energy sinks/channelers, with the ability to harness "zero point energy"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_point_energy

and/or manipulate fundamental energy forms (E/M fields, gravitons, etc).

One interpretation of Kryptonite would then be that it blocks their ability to manipulate these energy sources.

One thing is for certain- thinking of Superman as simply a strong lump of muscle and tissue is beyond the suspension of disbelief.

So, while most superheros are humans who gained a power/powers through mutation (Xmen), technology/money (Iron Man, Batman), or genetic accident (Hulk, Spiderman), Superman has *nothing* to do with being human physically, though Smallville makes the case that he is being raised *as human* emotionally. While Supes has the apparent physical form of a human, it may simply be a convenient container for their higher Organian-like native form.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organian

An interesting theory but it's still comics. Nothing prevents him from gaining that power from the sun.

In theory he should constantly be charging from all ambient light. Since he rarely expends a large amount at once it gets to build up for a long time. Furthermore the superdense cell structure allows for a lot of space to store that energy.

The posted theory also fails to adress how sundipping powers him up if solar energy is not invloved for a large part in his powers.

Originally posted by Donkey Punch
Hi guys I'm new around here, but i have a problem that is annoying me so much that it is literally keeping me up at night. I've recently started collecting comics, (and generally prefer Marvel comics) but after seeing the Superman movie i have gained sort of obsession. I know a little about physics, and It REALLY REALLY bugs me about Superman's powers especially seeing as hes a pseudo scientific character. The bit that bothers me the most is the energy crisis scenario. How was he able to gain the amount of energy needed to lift NEW krypton in the space of about two seconds. If plants could absorb that much solar energy in a minute, are problems with fossil fuels would be solved by literally cultivating weeds as energy sources. We could literally power space ships with daffodils by the types of energies proposed by Superman returns. I know its only a comics and I'm acting really sad, but i cant see why they don't just redesign his powers again. They did it when they decided that gravity did provide a suitable explanation, why not do it again. Does anyone have any thoughts on how he can absorb so much solar energy in a short space of time ? I heard that he maybe attracts light like a magnet ? Can anyone confirm this ? Hello completely new member to KMC. This is quite a conundrum you have here. It's a superhero movie so we all must take a leap of faith. I welcome you with my favorite smiley. dur

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
An interesting theory but it's still comics. Nothing prevents him from gaining that power from the sun.

In theory he should constantly be charging from all ambient light. Since he rarely expends a large amount at once it gets to build up for a long time. Furthermore the superdense cell structure allows for a lot of space to store that energy.

The posted theory also fails to adress how sundipping powers him up if solar energy is not invloved for a large part in his powers.

I agree, except not enough Solar energy falls onto his body. Radiation travels in straight lines and Superman relatively small surface means he can only absorb a tiny amount of the Suns energy EVER. It would literally take Billions of years of soaking up the suns rays to have enough energy to lift/move new krypton. I know i getting worked up about comic logic, but i really cant shake the problem from my head. Maybe there s some sort of happy medium that allows his body to absorb more Solar energy than a conventional body his size could ?

Originally posted by Badabing
Hello completely new member to KMC. This is quite a conundrum you have here. It's a superhero movie so we all must take a leap of faith. I welcome you with my favorite smiley. dur

Thanks mate ?

Originally posted by Donkey Punch
I agree, except not enough Solar energy falls onto his body. Radiation travels in straight lines and Superman relatively small surface means he can only absorb a tiny amount of the Suns energy EVER. It would literally take Billions of years of soaking up the suns rays to have enough energy to lift/move new krypton. I know i getting worked up about comic logic, but i really cant shake the problem from my head. Maybe there s some sort of happy medium that allows his body to absorb more Solar energy than a conventional body his size could ? Or maybe his kryptonian dna allows him to process that sun energy more efficiently than any "engines" we have today. Yeah, that could be it.

Amplification. The way his body processes the energy, it breaks it down, rebuilds it, and in the end, he ends up with an exponential amount of raw energy.

Originally posted by Darth Macabre
Or maybe his kryptonian dna allows him to process that sun energy more efficiently than any "engines" we have today. Yeah, that could be it.

The processing is not the problem, its the getting hold of it, in the first place. Not enough radiation touches his body.

Originally posted by Nataku8188
Amplification. The way his body processes the energy, it breaks it down, rebuilds it, and in the end, he ends up with an exponential amount of raw energy.

That violates the second law of Thermodynamics, 'Energy cannot be created or destroyed'.

Imagine if the solar radiation was food, the problem is not how he breaks down the food, its the fact he's not eating nearly enough. In fact he needs to start eating billions maybe trillions of times more food to perform the feats he does, without violating the second law of Thermodynamics.

Originally posted by Donkey Punch
The processing is not the problem, its the getting hold of it, in the first place. Not enough radiation touches his body. Processing explains the lack of 'getting ahold of it'. Every drop he gets his body can process at a much, much more efficient rate than any of us can comprehend. If, that is, we even want to comprehend it, because it's only a comic book.

Originally posted by Donkey Punch
The processing is not the problem, its the getting hold of it, in the first place. Not enough radiation touches his body. You seem to be under the assumption that solar energy affects Superman on the same ratio that it affects plants...

Originally posted by Donkey Punch
That violates the second law of Thermodynamics, 'Energy cannot be created or destroyed'.

Imagine if the solar radiation was food, the problem is not how he breaks down the food, its the fact he's not eating nearly enough. In fact he needs to start eating billions maybe trillions of times more food to perform the feats he does, without violating the second law of Thermodynamics.

It's not creating or destroying, it's processing. It's like humans, you eat meat, it turns into raw energy. He takes energy in as one form, reprocesses it, and now it's even more powerful as raw energy.

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
You seem to be under the assumption that solar energy affects Superman on the same ratio that it affects plants...


Im looking at it from its most energetic perspective. I.e. one photon of energy equals a certain amount of joules of energy. Even if he absorbed all the photon radiation that comes into contact with his body, in its entirety he still falls short by a lot. Infact he would have to abosrb literally billions of times as many photons.

Originally posted by Nataku8188
It's not creating or destroying, it's processing. It's like humans, you eat meat, it turns into raw energy. He takes energy in as one form, reprocesses it, and now it's even more powerful as raw energy.

Photons are 'RAW' energy. You cannot break them down like you can with food and mass.

Originally posted by Donkey Punch
Im looking at it from its most energetic perspective. I.e. one photon of energy equals a certain amount of joules of energy. Even if he absorbed all the photon radiation that comes into contact with his body, in its entirety he still falls short by a lot. Infact he would have to abosrb literally billions of times as many photons.

You can't say that without knowing exactly how many joules of energy are produced from a single photon... you're making assumptions using real world physics that don't apply in the comic world.

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
You can't say that without knowing exactly how many joules of energy are produced from a single photon... you're making assumptions using real world physics that don't apply in the comic world.

Im using calculations based on photons abosrbed all over our earth. Are you suggesting the D.C. universe has a sun that is Billions of times more powerful than our own.

Maybe this helps ?

One megaton yields over 4000 terajoules: more energy than the whole Earth will use for hundreds of years, at least. Seems to me, in order to survive a one megaton blast, one would have to counter 4000 terajoules with an equal amount of energy, at least.

Thusly...
- On a sunny day, the amount of sunlight per square centimeter yields 0.1345 joules every ten seconds.
- An adult male has about 1.8 square meters of total skin surface area.
- If Superman were totally naked, he could perhaps absorb about 2500 joules in ten seconds. He needs 1.6 trillion times this amount to counter the energy of a 1 megaton bomb (4000 trillion divided by 2500).
- 1.6 trillion x 10 seconds is about 500,000 years. This is how long Kal El has to sunbathe to absorb enough power to survive 1 (one) "typical" nuclear explosion.

Based on the above, it would be better to assign the solar rad he absorbs a "secondary" position, something which triggers a far more powerful energy source, rather than being the primary energy source itself...kinda like a car ignition triggering the more-powerful internal combustion which actually moves the car.



If it was, it would kill everything on the planet (Except for Superman of course, ). Any way as the sun is powered by fusion, which is the breakdown of mass at the atomic level, it would mean the D.C. sun would have to have Billions of times more massive. Meaning that the earth would also be likey to be immensly more heavy than our planet.

Originally posted by Donkey Punch
Thanks mate ?

edit

Originally posted by Donkey Punch
Im using calculations based on photons abosrbed all over our earth. Are you suggesting the D.C. universe has a sun that is Billions of times more powerful than our own.
Have you read The Authority #2? They crashed into the real world (as real as it gets for a comic I suppose) and remarked how this universe has such a low level of energy and because of that, even low level superhumans cause the laws of nature to go horribly wrong until something cataclysmic occurs.

i once read a thread where demigawd and.......whirly were arguing about physics which went on for pages...

meh...

anyway, welcome new member...

i realize you're not trying to hide anything, but do you have to use the same sig everytime, new member?

Originally posted by Donkey Punch
Photons are 'RAW' energy. You cannot break them down like you can with food and mass.

All energy is simply a concept, like all science, that is correct until proven otherwise. You can't assume that his body doesn't know how to break down what we think is raw energy and create 'actual' raw energy.

Originally posted by Validus
Have you read The Authority #2? They crashed into the real world (as real as it gets for a comic I suppose) and remarked how this universe has such a low level of energy and because of that, even low level superhumans cause the laws of nature to go horribly wrong until something cataclysmic occurs.

I have read it (Really rubbish series so far), but i was under the assumption that Apollo's ability to absorb radiation acted as catalyst for some form of nuclear reaction. Well this is what was suggested by Captain Atom any way.

Originally posted by Nataku8188
All energy is simply a concept, like all science, that is correct until proven otherwise. You can't assume that his body doesn't know how to break down what we think is raw energy and create 'actual' raw energy.

I really have no idea what you are getting at. I klnow that the energy that makes up particles in E = mc 2 are photons at high energy wave lengths. Photons and radiation don't have any mass, they are fundamental energy, and not made up of energetic components like matter is. I hope that may have helped.

I heard some where that he is able to absorb photons from parallel universes. I.e. the many world theory (Similar to Hyper time) predicts the notion of two universes existing for every two way decision. Therefore every time a particle could have gone one way or the other its creates an entire new universe, letting it go both ways. If he could some how psionically absorb the radiation from these other universes he could literally absorb energy from Billions of stars simultaneously ? I think it was mentioned somewhere during the Byrne era, can anyone vouch for this ?

Hello. dur

Originally posted by Donkey Punch
I really have no idea what you are getting at. I klnow that the energy that makes up particles in E = mc 2 are photons at high energy wave lengths. Photons and radiation don't have any mass, they are fundamental energy, and not made up of energetic components like matter is. I hope that may have helped.

Everything in science is just a theory until proven otherwise. We can only break things down so far (Cellular, atomic levels, etc.) with our current technology, and beyond that who knows? Next thing you know we might find out that what we thought was raw energy was still a more complex form of something else.

You give a scientist a 10x microscope and he'll tell you the smallest thing he can discern is the building block of everything else. Give him a 100x microscope and now he can see even smaller things, so now what was once the buildling block is now made up of even more things. The same principles apply here.

Everything discovered in science relies on technology to prove it, as technology improves we gain a better understanding of science. As far as this is concerned, it's a comic, so it has unknowns that the writer couldn't possibly describe or care about, because all that matters is the end result. They can explain it to a certain depth, but after that, there's no point, simply because you can keep going deeper and deeper.

Originally posted by Nataku8188
Everything in science is just a theory until proven otherwise.

No.

Everything in science is a postulation until it has enough proof to become a theory.

Originally posted by Nataku8188
Everything in science is just a theory until proven otherwise. We can only break things down so far (Cellular, atomic levels, etc.) with our current technology, and beyond that who knows? Next thing you know we might find out that what we thought was raw energy was still a more complex form of something else.

You give a scientist a 10x microscope and he'll tell you the smallest thing he can discern is the building block of everything else. Give him a 100x microscope and now he can see even smaller things, so now what was once the buildling block is now made up of even more things. The same principles apply here.

Everything discovered in science relies on technology to prove it, as technology improves we gain a better understanding of science. As far as this is concerned, it's a comic, so it has unknowns that the writer couldn't possibly describe or care about, because all that matters is the end result. They can explain it to a certain depth, but after that, there's no point, simply because you can keep going deeper and deeper.

Fair enough ! There would have to be ALOT of 'Pure' energ contained within photons though !

What do you think about the Pre Crisis concept that didn't suggest he was a living Solar battery, but the Suns radiation acted as a catalyst for something else ? I wonder what it maybe a catalyst for ?

HI Yahman hi2

Originally posted by Priest
HI Yahman hi2



Who the hell is Yahman ?

Originally posted by Donkey Punch
What does that mean ?


Hello? It's a standard greeting in the English language. dur is just my favorite smiley. dur

Originally posted by Badabing
Hello? It's a standard greeting in the English language. dur is just my favorite smiley. dur

Cool.

The real answer is: He's effin' Superman. His writers were his fanboys when they were kids. He does what ever the crap he needs to do through pure physical strength. Like when he contained a tiny black hole in his hands. Somehow his hand meat blocked the gravity, because he's Superman. How does that even work? He's Superman. He makes physics job to him.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
The real answer is: He's effin' Superman. His writers were his fanboys when they were kids. He does what ever the crap he needs to do through pure physical strength. Like when he contained a tiny black hole in his hands. Somehow his hand meat blocked the gravity, because he's Superman. How does that even work? He's Superman. He makes physics job to him.

I know, i get this response in a lot of forums. But i hate the idea that his powers have pseudo explained with science, but the science is infact wrong. If you know what i mean. I like youre sig, very funny.

You will address Lord Swanky as 'His Lordship', or, 'Swanky, the Giant Jewel Encrusted Golden God' mortal!

Originally posted by Nataku8188
You will address Lord Swanky as 'His Lordship', or, 'Swanky, the Giant Jewel Encrusted Golden God' mortal!

Originally posted by Donkey Punch
I know, i get this response in a lot of forums. But i hate the idea that his powers have pseudo explained with science, but the science is infact wrong. If you know what i mean. I like youre sig, very funny.
If it makes you feel any better, yellow sunlight and red sunlight are practically the same thing. There's just more yellow in the yellow sunlight.

Wait, that just makes things even more confusing.

And thanks, I pride myself in my ability to steal hats in theory.

Originally posted by Nataku8188
You will address Lord Swanky as 'His Lordship', or, 'Swanky, the Giant Jewel Encrusted Golden God' mortal!
It must be so or thine fences shalt be bumrushed by mine armies of seagulls and mine own mighty golden sabatons.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
If it makes you feel any better, yellow sunlight and red sunlight are practically the same thing. There's just more yellow in the yellow sunlight.

Wait, that just makes things even more confusing.

And thanks, I pride myself in my ability to steal hats in theory.


It must be so or thine fences shalt be bumrushed by mine armies of seagulls and mine own mighty golden sabatons.

I take it you read the science of Super heroes aswell.