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Hi guys I'm new around here, but i have a problem that is annoying me so much that it is literally keeping me up at night. I've recently started collecting comics, (and generally prefer Marvel comics) but after seeing the Superman movie i have gained sort of obsession. I know a little about physics, and It REALLY REALLY bugs me about Superman's powers especially seeing as hes a pseudo scientific character. The bit that bothers me the most is the energy crisis scenario. How was he able to gain the amount of energy needed to lift NEW krypton in the space of about two seconds.

I like the Pre Crisis idea that although his powers came from being under a yellow sun, it was never explained how this gave him his powers. It was Bryne who apparently created the notion of Superman absorbing yellow Sunlight to give him powers. Since Mark Waids, Birthright origin Superman hs been resorting back to his Silver age depiction. Does that mean he no longer absorbs Yellow sunlight to give him powers. If so where does he get his powers from ?

It’s a sort of article of faith among Superman fans these days that Superman’s power is absorbed from the Sun – that is, that his body absorbs the energy from sunlight and stores said energy for use at a later time, as a “living solar battery”, as John Byrne put it. If I recall correctly, he was the first writer to describe Supes’ powers this way, with previous references not being as specific – that is, the powers were explained as being caused by exposure to yellow sun radiation, without reference to the exact nature of the effect. It was all rather vague.

I admire anybody who tries to come up with a plausible-sounding explanation for comic-book superpowers; I do it all the time myself. But being the physics nerd that I am, I decided to do a back-of-the-envelope analysis of this idea.

It doesn’t work.

The short answer is that Superman expends energy at a far higher rate than he could possibly absorb it. But let’s run some numbers.

The flux of solar radiation at Earth’s orbit is roughly 1,400 watts per square meter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_constant). Now, any object absorbs radiation through its surface area. The surface area of the human body is roughly 2 square meters (http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/IgorFridman.shtml). Note that I took the highest of the figures listed for surface area, and rounded the energy flux from the Sun up. Since this is a rough calculation, estimates and assumptions are unavoidable. But in the spirit of generosity, I will always select those assumptions on the side of results which are better for this theory. Also, as far as I can remember, I will point out when I’m doing so.

So, since Kal-El’s surface area is 2 meters square, let’s say he absorbs solar energy at a rate of 2,800 W/m^2. Note that I have assigned an efficiency of 100% to this process, and that I have ignored the fact that only one side of his body can face the Sun at a time, and I’ve also ignored night, being indoors, cloudy days, energy scattered from the atmosphere before it ever reaches Superman, etc…all of which would reduce the average rate of absorption.

Next, let’s figure out how much energy would be required for Superman to accelerate to Mach 25 (roughly 8250 meters per second at sea level. This is roughly orbital speed) once. Using figures from Superman: The Movie, Superman weighs 225 pounds. Converted to mass (and metric…sorry, fellow Americans, metric really is better), this comes out to roughly 100 kilograms. I have actually rounded slightly down in this case, but 100 is a nice round number and it makes no significant difference, anyway. Using the old formula for kinetic energy, KE = ½ m*v^2, we get:

KE = 3.4 billion joules (I rounded down)

Note that I have ignored air resistance. Including it would make the result much higher.

Now, how long would it take Superman to absorb enough solar energy to accomplish this feat? Well, let’s do it:

3,400,000,000 J / 2800 W = 1.2 million seconds (rounding down)

This is just under two weeks. If Superman has to go faster, the problem gets even worse…as the square of the velocity, in fact. So if Superman has to go twice as fast, it takes 4 times as much energy, etc.

Take an example from SR: the lifting of New Krypton. Assuming that NK has the same density as the rocks and soil that it’s made from (roughly 3000 kilograms per cubic meter near Earth’s surface) and also assuming that NK has the same volume as a sphere with a radius of 10 km (I like numbers that make the math easy…can you tell?), and also that Superman accelerated NK to sufficient speed that it would completely escape Earth’s gravity (roughly 25,000 MPH), we get a total energy of:

KE = 2.6 x 10^20 joules (26 followed by 19 zeroes, for those of you not familiar with scientific notation)


As I stated earlier I prefer the Pre Crisis idea that although his powers came from being under a yellow sun, it was never explained how this gave him his powers. It was Bryne who apparently created the notion of Superman absorbing yellow Sunlight to give him powers. Does the Mark Waid Silver age interpretation allowing him access to a more powerful energy source ?

A commonly accepted hypothesis is that yellow sunlight merely acts as a catalyst for further processes within him that release his true power.

Umm...

HOLY CRAP! Give me a minute while I snort my brain back up my nose. I'm a reporter, not a physicist!
Your calculations preclude Superman being a solar battery. If he gains his abilities from the energy of our yellow sun, then he obviously has some, as perhaps yet unexplained, ability to multiply that energy exponentially.
We all know that Jorel said his son would be strong and resilient but that doesn't explain how Superman does any of his uberness. Personally, I feel that his power must be physic in nature. Maybe the sun makes it possible, but his brain (being super and all) may be able to accomplish anything if he was capable to using all of it.
Maybe it all comes down to Superman having the power of super mind over matter. That's as good an explanation as any, in my opinion.
Keep posting!

Originally posted by Donkey Punch
The short answer is that Superman expends energy at a far higher rate than he could possibly absorb it. Absolutely.
A while back I did similar calculations (hey, GMTA ), and came to the conclusion that, in order for Superman to survive the full power of a ground-zero 1-megaton nuke, he'd have to absorb sunlight for 500,000 years.

The Sparkplug Hypothesis.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
A commonly accepted hypothesis is that yellow sunlight merely acts as a catalyst for further processes within him that release his true power.

I wonder what this True power source is. You seem like a really clever guy, do you have any ideas what it maybe. I think its been hinted at some points before, has anyone got any evidence to clarify this.

How are you sure that Superman's body uses exactly the power in watts or joules of radiation? Superman's body may convert it into another type of energy or energy source that may be much greater then just ordinary watts or joules. I would say something in his organ system must be converting the sun energy into another energy. Added to that, Superman isn't a normal human and his body probably conserves energy better then any other human. Saying that, he probably uses less energy on tasks that humans will use alot more energy on.

Originally posted by Mindship
Absolutely.
A while back I did similar calculations (hey, GMTA ), and came to the conclusion that, in order for Superman to survive the full power of a ground-zero 1-megaton nuke, he'd have to absorb sunlight for 500,000 years.

The Sparkplug Hypothesis.

You also seem like a really clever guy, especially if you are doing calculations like that (I got the info from another website). Its really bugging me as to whether this is an official retcon, or whether or not the living Solar battery theory still applies ? The recent 'Up up and away' saga kind of hints that his powers are psychological, maybe even psionic which would back up this guys theory .....

HOLY CRAP! Give me a minute while I snort my brain back up my nose. I'm a reporter, not a physicist!
Your calculations preclude Superman being a solar battery. If he gains his abilities from the energy of our yellow sun, then he obviously has some, as perhaps yet unexplained, ability to multiply that energy exponentially.
We all know that Jorel said his son would be strong and resilient but that doesn't explain how Superman does any of his uberness. Personally, I feel that his power must be physic in nature. Maybe the sun makes it possible, but his brain (being super and all) may be able to accomplish anything if he was capable to using all of it.
Maybe it all comes down to Superman having the power of super mind over matter. That's as good an explanation as any, in my opinion.

Although this would make sense to a certain extent, it doesn't really explain why he is limited to the powers he's got. Why cant he do Telekinesis and Transmutation e.t.c..

Another theory i have read before is that Krypton had different laws of physics to the rest of the universe. In this universe they where able to absorb and interact with parallel universes predicted by the Schroedinger and his cat. Although hes CURRENTLY unable to observe these parallel universes, he is still able to absorb photons from them, but only photons of a yellow band wave length. I.e. the many world theory (Similar to Hyper time) predicts the notion of two universes existing for every two way decision. Therefore every time a particle could have gone one way or the other its creates an entire new universe, letting it go both ways. If he could some how psionically absorb the radiation from these other universes he could literally absorb energy from Billions of stars simultaneously ? I think it was mentioned somewhere during the Byrne era, can anyone vouch for this ?

Originally posted by Spidervlad
How are you sure that Superman's body uses exactly the power in watts or joules of radiation? Superman's body may convert it into another type of energy or energy source that may be much greater then just ordinary watts or joules. I would say something in his organ system must be converting the sun energy into another energy. Added to that, Superman isn't a normal human and his body probably conserves energy better then any other human. Saying that, he probably uses less energy on tasks that humans will use alot more energy on.

Sorry mate, but during the process of conversion one cannot create or destroy energy. Just because he converts the radiation into potential energy, it doesn't mean he can magically create more out of nothingness than he absorbed in the first place. Thats if the laws of Thermodynamics apply to the D.C. universe, which I'm sure they do, as its been stated by scientist such as the Ray Palmer and Bruce Wayne, previously.

Originally posted by Donkey Punch
I wonder what this True power source is. You seem like a really clever guy, do you have any ideas what it maybe. I think its been hinted at some points before, has anyone got any evidence to clarify this.

I do not know. It has been implied that he has a link with the Source/Presence, but that doesn't explain the other Kryptonians and Daxamites.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I do not know. It has been implied that he has a link with the Source/Presence, but that doesn't explain the other Kryptonians and Daxamites.

Maybe they all are ....

Where was this implied ?

In OWAW I believe

Originally posted by Endless Mike
In OWAW I believe

i own OWAW and i can remember that bit ?

I think it was something Imperiex said at the end, I'm not sure. However I think it was also stated by the Linear Men in one comic (which I don't remember the title of)

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I think it was something Imperiex said at the end, I'm not sure. However I think it was also stated by the Linear Men in one comic (which I don't remember the title of)

I've seen someone stating that Mongul and Orion have said the same thing, but I still cant find the source. Another interesting factor, was discovered when the Atom investigated his body and found that his stomach converted his food into pure energy by a form of fusion. Although this would provide him with huge amounts of energy it would not come close to the amounts needed to perform planetary feats. He have to be eating literally billions of tons worth of food to do that.

Well in one Pre - Crisis comic he ate all the food in the world

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Well in one Pre - Crisis comic he ate all the food in the world



Really ?

That would definitely give him enough energy to move a planet the size of earth (Thats if he converts the food into pure enrgy by fusion) But it maybe a one off feat.

It was basically just Pre - Crisis wackiness

Originally posted by Endless Mike
It was basically just Pre - Crisis wackiness

I thought as much, but at the same time at the moment Pre Crisis Superman IMO seems more plausible. At-least D.C. where vague about how his powers worked. The Bryne revamp makes him officially impossible, that really annoys me.

This guys seems like he had a good idea, but it still doesn't really supply enough energy. TOLD U I was obsessive.

Originally posted by Yahman returns
Im going to be banned in a minute so'ill be as quick as possible.

Superman needs a change in costume and a new explanaition for his powers. I think the following is quite a funky idea ....

I like the idea of him being depicted on a semi Comic level, beyond everyone else (Even Lanterns and Martians) as seen during the Crisis. But the Origins of his powers are just plain retarded. In scientific terms he's an overly dense plant, that can miraculously fly. I hardly believe that the power to duplicate photosynthesis should have God- like beings quaking in their boots. IMO Hyper Dimensions, and string theory provide a suitable answer. Like the mice from Hitchhikers guide, imagine that Kryptonian’s are Pan Dimensional beings, that have the 3 Dimensional form of a humanoid (instead of a mouse). Extra dimensions provide a successful explanations for all of Superman’s powers, from flight to super strength and Durability. They also provide a valid account for the immense power source needed to duplicate various of his AMAZING feats.

See Notes below :

Its believed that Supes powers are derived from the absorption of Solar energy. I’m not convinced, the feats Supes regularly performs suggest an alternate but more powerful energy source. The absorption of Yellow Solar energy may be the key to unlocking this Meta ability.

All of Superman’s powers involve the conversion of Solar energy to meta ATP in the cells. The meta ATP is the source of Supes energy. Supes has extra organs in his body and organelles a bit like a cross between a chloroplast and a mitochondria. What the exact nature of the action of energy conversion as far as interim stages is, no one knows, although much has been theorised.

I theorise this photosynthetic process may kick start some form of matter to energy conversion. I.e. his food is converted to pure energy I.e. E=MC2. Imagine every time he eats, he’s consuming more energy than a nuclear megatons warhead.

Complexity is measured on how much energy a given amount of mass can manipulate. As we know the Kryptonian’s are second only to the New Gods and the Guardians in advancements in science. Its therefore probable to suggest that they found a way to give the Kryptonian cell the power of the Atom.

Maybe there’s an even greater energy source, Have any of you any ideas how Supes powers could be developed ?

I always had a theory that supes body metabolised by converting its mass into energy through the theory of relativity then he could choose what form the energy took.

Originally posted by Help
I always had a theory that supes body metabolised by converting its mass into energy through the theory of relativity then he could choose what form the energy took.

Thats very simillar to my theory !

Originally posted by Donkey Punch
Hi guys I'm new around here, but i have a problem that is annoying me so much that it is literally keeping me up at night. I've recently started collecting comics, (and generally prefer Marvel comics) but after seeing the Superman movie i have gained sort of obsession. I know a little about physics, and It REALLY REALLY bugs me about Superman's powers especially seeing as hes a pseudo scientific character. The bit that bothers me the most is the energy crisis scenario. How was he able to gain the amount of energy needed to lift NEW krypton in the space of about two seconds.

I like the Pre Crisis idea that although his powers came from being under a yellow sun, it was never explained how this gave him his powers. It was Bryne who apparently created the notion of Superman absorbing yellow Sunlight to give him powers. Since Mark Waids, Birthright origin Superman hs been resorting back to his Silver age depiction. Does that mean he no longer absorbs Yellow sunlight to give him powers. If so where does he get his powers from ?

It’s a sort of article of faith among Superman fans these days that Superman’s power is absorbed from the Sun – that is, that his body absorbs the energy from sunlight and stores said energy for use at a later time, as a “living solar battery”, as John Byrne put it. If I recall correctly, he was the first writer to describe Supes’ powers this way, with previous references not being as specific – that is, the powers were explained as being caused by exposure to yellow sun radiation, without reference to the exact nature of the effect. It was all rather vague.

I admire anybody who tries to come up with a plausible-sounding explanation for comic-book superpowers; I do it all the time myself. But being the physics nerd that I am, I decided to do a back-of-the-envelope analysis of this idea.

It doesn’t work.

The short answer is that Superman expends energy at a far higher rate than he could possibly absorb it. But let’s run some numbers.

The flux of solar radiation at Earth’s orbit is roughly 1,400 watts per square meter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_constant). Now, any object absorbs radiation through its surface area. The surface area of the human body is roughly 2 square meters (http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/IgorFridman.shtml). Note that I took the highest of the figures listed for surface area, and rounded the energy flux from the Sun up. Since this is a rough calculation, estimates and assumptions are unavoidable. But in the spirit of generosity, I will always select those assumptions on the side of results which are better for this theory. Also, as far as I can remember, I will point out when I’m doing so.

So, since Kal-El’s surface area is 2 meters square, let’s say he absorbs solar energy at a rate of 2,800 W/m^2. Note that I have assigned an efficiency of 100% to this process, and that I have ignored the fact that only one side of his body can face the Sun at a time, and I’ve also ignored night, being indoors, cloudy days, energy scattered from the atmosphere before it ever reaches Superman, etc…all of which would reduce the average rate of absorption.

Next, let’s figure out how much energy would be required for Superman to accelerate to Mach 25 (roughly 8250 meters per second at sea level. This is roughly orbital speed) once. Using figures from Superman: The Movie, Superman weighs 225 pounds. Converted to mass (and metric…sorry, fellow Americans, metric really is better), this comes out to roughly 100 kilograms. I have actually rounded slightly down in this case, but 100 is a nice round number and it makes no significant difference, anyway. Using the old formula for kinetic energy, KE = ½ m*v^2, we get:

KE = 3.4 billion joules (I rounded down)

Note that I have ignored air resistance. Including it would make the result much higher.

Now, how long would it take Superman to absorb enough solar energy to accomplish this feat? Well, let’s do it:

3,400,000,000 J / 2800 W = 1.2 million seconds (rounding down)

This is just under two weeks. If Superman has to go faster, the problem gets even worse…as the square of the velocity, in fact. So if Superman has to go twice as fast, it takes 4 times as much energy, etc.

Take an example from SR: the lifting of New Krypton. Assuming that NK has the same density as the rocks and soil that it’s made from (roughly 3000 kilograms per cubic meter near Earth’s surface) and also assuming that NK has the same volume as a sphere with a radius of 10 km (I like numbers that make the math easy…can you tell?), and also that Superman accelerated NK to sufficient speed that it would completely escape Earth’s gravity (roughly 25,000 MPH), we get a total energy of:

KE = 2.6 x 10^20 joules (26 followed by 19 zeroes, for those of you not familiar with scientific notation)


As I stated earlier I prefer the Pre Crisis idea that although his powers came from being under a yellow sun, it was never explained how this gave him his powers. It was Bryne who apparently created the notion of Superman absorbing yellow Sunlight to give him powers. Does the Mark Waid Silver age interpretation allowing him access to a more powerful energy source ?

John Byrne has already confirmed that Superman's power is part psionic. This is how he flies too. The amount of solar energy he's converted determines the amount of strength his psionic potential provides. Another instance, in Action comics #782, a few moment in the sun caused Superman to overpower thousands of galaxies of power.

Maybe Superman is mentally drawing energy from a pocket universe or something.
Action comics

Sunlight is simply a catalyst for Superman's abilities.

At this point, Superman's best bet is that he's a subconscious reality warper (which conveniently explains his T-vo ability. )

Originally posted by Avlon
Sunlight is simply a catalyst for Superman's abilities.

At this point, Superman's best bet is that he's a subconscious reality warper (which conveniently explains his T-vo ability. )

Why the **** would Kryptonians have latent 'Reality warping' powers they couldn't use on their own planet ? Its seems a tad bit ridiculous ?

I think Kryptonains have an organ (wouldn't work in our universe), that attracts light to it on a large scale.There are loads of characters who are able to bend light (Doctor Light, etc), and loads of energy absorbers (Parasite,Captain Atom, etc) so why not make Superman one, except make this Solar absorption physiological rather than mental. Obviously Superman wouldn't be able to use this organ all the time as it would create a shadow over everything, but it not hard to imagine him going into space and the 'switching it on'. It would allow him to obtain huge quantities of Solar radiation, which his body then stores. It would also explain Sun dipping, as it works more effectively when in close proximity to the sun.

I've also always been a bit uncomfortable about the whole solar absorption thing, because the energy given off by yellow sun radiation wouldn't be sufficient to allow Supes to accomplish his uber feats.

I've always thought it wouldn't be sensible for Superman to do what he does if his powers were not inter dimensional in origin. The sun radiation is just a way to kick start his body's ability to draw more power from an inter dimensional source.

Basically solar radiation allows him to unlock more of his powers, he doesn't directly gain energy from solar radiation.

Originally posted by Allankles
I've also always been a bit uncomfortable about the whole solar absorption thing, because the energy given off by yellow sun radiation wouldn't be sufficient to allow Supes to accomplish his uber feats.

I've always thought it wouldn't be sensible for Superman to do what he does if his powers were not inter dimensional in origin. The sun radiation is just a way to kick start his body's ability to draw more power from an inter dimensional source.

Basically solar radiation allows him to unlock more of his powers, he doesn't directly gain energy from solar radiation.

I think most people prefer the idea of the Catalyst, or jump start concept. I wish writers would incorporate it though ....

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
I think most people prefer the idea of the Catalyst, or jump start concept. I wish writers would incorporate it though ....

I have heard people in documentaries (can't remember which) and magazines mentioning something similar to the catalyst idea. And according to a poster here Mongul and couple other characters have mentioned something of the sought.

If Superman has an energy source, what do you think it should be ?

There are various contenders:

His cells use the Sun to synthesise organic material (like Plants), which his cells then convert into pure energy. As each Kilogram of organic matter contains the energy equivalent of a 25 megaton nuclear bomb, he could should be able to absorb literally billions of nuclear bombs worth of energy every year. Although this sound enormous, and would easily enable him to move mountains and move close to the speed of light, it wouldn't give him the energy to a move a planet or the moon.

On the plus side, it worked very well with the Solar absorption idea, as he performing the equivalent of photosynthesis. It would have the added 'Badass' bonus, of making his cells living-suns as well.

One way to get around this, would be to use his gravity manipulation powers (i.e. his power to fly) to make himself into a gravity lens of sorts, like a living Black hole which would allow him to suck in the Suns light, using gravity. Of course he'd have to perform this stunt as close to the sun as possible, limiting the necessary size of the gravity lens.

On the negative side it doesn't really work with the Sun-dipping Idea. As the mass needed for the cellular fusion, comes from our Atmosphere, he'll be cut off from most oh his power source, whilst in the sun.

Alternative Power source, would be the limitless supply of energy from the vacuum of space, but this is already the power source of Captain Atom, and it doesn't link very well with the Solar absorption. On the plus side it is limitless, so Superman would be able to perform his more impressive feats. It also may be able to provide an explanation for his ability to fly, as scientists have recently created a form of levitation using the Vacuum energy.

The other ideas , would involve the Source or maybe some Extra Dimensional power source, but IMO, they both sound a little lame.