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The distance between the Monastery and the Fortress is not huge. Certainly not by helicopter. On foot, it is more awkward. With people injured, more awkward still, and when trying to keep out of sight of any reconaissance form the system, progress is more that of the sloth than the wolf.

No pursuit seems to come, though.

It is morning. You have spent the night 'camping' out on the mountainside. Whilst many of you are still bad battered and beaten, the night's rest effectively removes all damage; nothing is permanently harmed.

The wall of the Fortress, merging seamlessly with that of the mountains around it, are in sight. You will be there by noon.

This gives you one chance to re-arm, with the equipment salvaged from the helicopters. For simplicity's sake, everyone can now be fully armed, and then the stock taken is exhausted. You'll have to choose now; there will be no more time.

Other than that, all there is to do is talk about what might be coming.

---

Encumbrance sizes work as follows:

Tiny: 0, but two Tinies count as a Small.
Small: 1
Medium: 2
Large: 4
Very Large: 8


Barehanded: Damage 1, Type- Barehanded

Knife/knives: Damage 2, Small, Type- Knife

Katars: Damage 2, Small, Type- Katar

Nunchaku: Damage 2, Small, Type- Nunchaku

Dual Staves: Damage 2, Small, Type- Twinned

Sais: Damage 2, Medium, Type- Twinned

Hook Swords: Damage 3, Large, Type- Twinned

Twinned Swords: Damage 3, Large, Type- Twinned

Staff- Damage 3, Large, Type- Spear

Sword- Damage 4, Large, Type- Sword

Spear- Damage 4, Very Large, Type- Spear



Light pistol (e.g. Glock 17)- Damage 1, Small, Ammo 6 (tiny clips)

Light Machine Pistol (e.g. Glock 19)- Damage 1, Small, Ammo 3 (tiny clips), Burst Fire

Machine Pistol (e.g. Uzi, Ingrams, Extended Glock)- Damage 1, Medium, Ammo 5 (tiny clips), Burst Fire

Large Pistol (e.g. Desert Eagle)- Damage 2, Medium, Ammo 3 (tiny clips)

Sub-machine gun (e.g. H&K MP5)- Damage 2, Large, Ammo 5 (small clips), Burst Fire

Shotgun- Damage 3*, Large, Ammo 8 (medium clips), bonus die pool at close range

Assault Rifle (e.g. M16)- Damage 3*, Very Large, Ammo 5 (small clips), Burst fire

---


Like last time, try and get this right first time, else you may find yourself with the wrong loadout and be stuck with it.

Loadout:

2 H&K MP5Ks (Machine Pistols)
1 Nunchaku
x14 Machine Pistol ammo

Can it be the same as last time?

Yes

It served me quite well, as I remember.....

Twin knives, as always.

I think it'd be best to repost what your loadout was, Melkor.

Klez will carry with him...

2 Goncz GA-9 Light Pistols (2)
20 Clips (10)

Hawk's loadout:

Twinned swords - Large and Small: 6
Glock 19 x2: 2
Ammo clips x9: 4 (plus 0)

12 final.

"So..." Hawk says, looking ahead. "It sure is a nice... wall."

"Take everything you can," Mors says, securing his sword at his belt and slinging a shotgun over his back. "It sounds like we may need everything."

-

Mors will be packing...

1 Katana (4)
1 XM-26 Shotgun (4)
1 Shotgun Clip (2)
1 Twinned Sais (2)

Got to have my two knives

"Yeah," Sirin replies to Hawk. "...nice."

8 Interdynamic KG-9 Light Machine Pistols (8)
1 HK UMP (4)

Ares packs his usual.

1 MAC11 (2)
20 clips (10)

And Hawk, I think that extra 0 clip is what was illegal last time. ermm

-

"What do you think it's like in there?" Ares asks, joining the conversation as he tucks his MAC11 into his coat.

Melis straps a spare staff to her back, keeping her intricately ornate battle spear in hand.

Staff (4)
Spear (8)

"Probably unpleasant," Melis says. "But at least it won't be full of Agents."

"Hopefully." San replies, putting away her knives.

No Rex, I'm pretty sure last time it was trying to use normal twinned swords like large and small swords.

For Heph's loadout, he's carrying...er...the Key?

"All the Suits are probably back at the Monastery," Heph says. "Waiting for us to come back."

Twinned Tachi Bladed Swords.
KABAR Combat Knife X 2.
DEagle.
Clip X 6 .

Same as last time.
As Burn selects and loads his weapon with near automatic precision he complains," Goddamn, I musta slept on a f'ckin rock or something. Stupid Mountains. Fake ass nature shit."

"Oh, yeah. So much worse than sleeping on bolts and other lovely bits of metal back in the Real World." Hawk rolls his eyes at Burn.

"At least we have mattresses back in the Real," Ares says. "I knew there was a reason I'd never been here in the Matrix."

My two swords, again please.

Dallas gets off the phone.

"Alright," he says. "Ariadne tells me there's some sort of gatehouse on one side of the wall. Now I reckon... that's the way in, yeah?" He smiles widely, pleased with his insight.

"Using a door? Well that makes a change for you, Cap." Cloud jokes.

"Well, I reckon the last thing King Senchur... King Scherb... that King will expect is for us to come in the front. One problem though, just as we saw from the copters, there's nothing actually inside the wall."

"So we're basically going into one long, narrow, corridor? That's comforting".

"Just a passageway through the wall. Beyond that, it's just... more mountain. Just mountain inside a wall."

"Maybe it's within the mountain or something?"

Shotgun 4
Eight Clips 8
Total 12

4 Light Machine Pistols (4 x clips) - 6
4 Light Pistols (4 x clips) - 6

Hawk laughs. "Maybe it's not 'there' at all. Like a shortcut on a computer. Doorway that moves us to the correct file location from the world 'desktop'."

He says this as a joke, but halfway through takes on a more serious tone, realizing it might be possible.

"Errr... what?" says Dallas, never the fastest with this type of talk.

Originally posted by Johns Mannequin
Shotgun 4
Eight Clips 8
Total 12

If you're grabbing a shotgun, the clips each take up two spaces. You'd only be able to carry four clips.

-

Mors smiles a little at Hawk's idea.

"There is most likely something inside there, Dallas," Mors says. "Even if we couldn't see it from the air."

"What Hawk said sounds almost like Melitus's place...let's hope that's not the case here."

"Let's not talk about Melitus, okay?" Ares says, plodding along with the group. "That makes me think of Tyr, and that makes me think of near-death experiences, and I've already had too many of those this week..."

Berserker continued to whistle the song from Snow White until he realized that no one else was joining in.

"You know what who cares. We have no clue what is about to happen at this "Fortress". So why bother wasting the mental space on it," Berserker said.

Then he cracked a big smile, "Besides there are only two outcomes anyways. Either we live or we die."

Well, you guys may as well set off. It's only about twenty minutes away.

The walls are looking increasingly looming and impressive, the closer you get to them on the ground.

Melis gives a low whistle as they get closer.

"Can it get any bigger?"

"I hope not, I feel short enough as it is..." San comments.

"Shorty McShort-Short," Ares comments. "You and Heph are the shortest, and I laugh heartily..."

Barb grins at Ares. "Hey, go easy on the Shorty McMidgets, will ya?"

I'll take my Silver Katana, two Ingrams and four Glock 19s. Storm said Mirage will be taking her sais, a machine pistol and 10 clips (the same as last time for both of us).

Well then! You appear to have arrived. A large wooden double door is set into the wall at this side.

"So...who's knocking?" Ares asks.

"You would think they would have a door bell somewhere," Berserker says.

"If you would like, I will knock." Barb Offers, looking about. "Cap't?" He continues, taking a step foreward.

"Well... This King certainly has a flair for the large and impressive. I'll give him that."

"Sure, go for it!" says Dallas.

Walking the final few steps to the Door, Barb looks about. Assured that no Boiling oil would be dumped upon his head, he rears back, and "Knocks" multiple times. Splinters are dislodged from the door in the process.

"Damnit." He murmers, Looking at his massive fist and jerking out a few slivers of Wood.

Melis just watches, leaning on her staff.

No splinters, I am afraid. The door is reinforced and your hand would break before it would.

There is no answer.

"Hmm," says Dallas. He reaches forwards and tries the handle.

The door clicks loudly open without any protest.

"Well, it seems that our knocking may anger him more than simple entering like this." -Melkor shakes his head.

The doors swing open slowly, to reveal a long stone passage behind.

Which doesn't make much sense, as the passage is for longer than the wall is wide.

"Well then, Shall we?"

"I hope we shall, we've been in these mountains long enough now"

"How strange...well, here we go once again heading off somewhere without having a clue about what to expect. Well, may as well go, it's not like we'll accomplish anything standing here." San says, entering the passage.

Anything else seem out of the ordinary, beyond the fact that the passage is longer than it should be?

"Face it, you just don't want to spend more time in these mountains," Hawk says to San, entering after her.

He places his hand on the wall, wondering if it's real - well, as "real" as the rest of the Matrix.

"Definitely not denying that."

"So again- no backup, no contingencies? I think that I may be starting to enjoy it." -Melkor grins, though a bit forcibly.

Nope, nothing else weird; sorry to disappoint.

And so, you head off into the corridor, which goes on a fair way. The doors swing shut behind you.

This place is dimly lit, though navigable. The corridor is mostly of giant stone bricks, the only things that seem to be out of place are fairly wide holes along the walls, ceiling and floor at various points. Mostly to the sides on the floor, so not a trip hazard.

How big are the holes? Person size?

"Hmm, that's odd" noticing the holes.

Hawk peers through one of the holes in a wall. Anything to see in there?

Barb loosens His KABARS slightly from their sheaths, although he does not draw them.

"I don't like this."

"Very curious," Mors says, entering the door. "It seems to be bigger on the inside, or not even connected to the measurements of the Wall outside. Interesting."

Mors treks along at the head of the group with San, keeping on his guard.

"Gun ports?" Mors says, noting the holes, peering into one cautiously...

"Not a clue," Klez comments. "Odd how it's all structured, though. I'm still not used to being out of an urban environment while in the Matrix..."

"What's the plan when we find Sennacherib?" Sirin asks Dallas and Marduk. "I mean, he did lead the armies against mankind, he's not going to be too happy to see us."

Too big for gun ports. Badly sited as well.

"If he gives trouble, we kick his ass," says Dallas.

"Dallas and the King," says Marduk. "Last ego standing wins."

"Hey!"

"Well, if he is a warrior he may respect strenght, at least.... and perhaps we could take advantage of any of his resentments against the System?"

"Assuming he resents the System," says Marduk.

"Well, at least I am trying to think about diffrent aproach than kicking his ass...."- Melkor doesn`t seem to be in good mood.

"At least it is likely that he suffers from megalomany. Do you think our egos could suffer a bit of humbling?"- The boy asks with blank expression.

"Honestly, right now I'm just hoping that we don't get attacked once we get to...well, whatever's at the end of the passage." San says.

"Hey, only if he gives trouble," says Dallas. "I'll give the guy a chance to speak."

He nudges Berserker.

"Be ready to kick his ass if he gives trouble," he says, quietly.

"Well, sounds like a great plan....."

Melkor gives a bit of histerical laugh at Dalla`s words.

"Not easy to plan when you don't have a clue what you're walking into..." San replies, not at all surprised at Dallas.

Ush, do I feel much out of place with expressing some caution?

With DALLAS, yes. With others, well, that is up to them.

How about Marduk? Does he seem worried?

He's ALWAYS worried.

"So, how do you think we should aproach this King?" -Melkor asks Marduk and whoever else might listen.

Berserker gives Dallas a wink. Then he whispers, "I'll be like Jason." Berserker then goes on to make a slight stabbing motion with his hand with lightly humming the Friday the 13th Theme.

"He shouldn't be too much trouble, if he decides to fight us," Hawk says nonchalantly. "He commanded the machines to victory, is all. Just because you can command well doesn't mean you can fight one-on-one well."

"Nice. Gotta love lack of experience, hmmm? People don't generally end up in charge if they don't know their stuff. And even if he personally couldn't take us one-on-one, who's to say he won't have a small army in there?" San replies. "We've never had anything but trouble when it underestimating what's ahead of us..."

Berserker nudges and San on the shoulder and says, "Didn't you see the plan its fool proof."

He says that while making his stabby motion again.

"I think San's the stabby one in this party, Berserker..." Hawk mumbles, trying to save face.

Berserker points to the two Bowie knives that are atached to his back

"I don't think so Hawk"

Originally posted by Newjak
Berserker points to the two Bowie knives that are atached to his back

"I don't think so Hawk"

"Not quite the best place to keep a pair of knives if you want to be able to grab them easily..." San comments.

"Apparently I didn't explain them well. You see they form an X on the backside of my belt. They are quite easy to access."

He then shows her by placing his hands on the handles.

"The Belt, or Thighs are the best places for Knives." Barb comments, staring about warily. "I prefer the Thighs."

"And I prefer guns," Ares says. "Lots of guns."

"Let's just go ahead and quote what we've about Neo, then," Mors says, before taking out his cell phone. "San, you reminded me. Thank you."

He dials in for Ariadne.

"Operator, what's it looking like in here from your point of view? The outside and the inside aren't matching up, from what I can tell. Reminds me of Melitus' realm, in terms of things not fitting as they should but still fitting...ish."

"I think we've all noticed that." San replies to Ares.

"Agreed, Guns are always easier. Just shoot the f*ckers."

"Unless you run out of ammo, of course."

"I prefer coppertop-on-a-stick, thanks," Melis says, slinging her spear over her shoulder via leather strap.

"I try to find the happy medium," Sirin contributes to the chat. "Blowing holes in people is only fun until you run out of bullets. Then, kicking holes in people is a good substitute..."

Heph keeps quiet, watching his surroundings intently.

Is it very castle-interior-esque?

children! "Whatever way you kill em is fine as long as you kill em"

Mors- no signal.

"With eyes and minds open," says Marduk.

Berserker going all Friday the 13th reminds those who did the last game of Loomis, which is uncomfortable.

-

It DOES look like a castle, yes. And now, you have come to another set of doors, which open out into an enormous chamber.

It is a large, high chamber, roughly rectangular in shape, north to south, with you guys at the south end. It is mostly shrouded in darkness. You can make out six enormous pillars straddling the room, north to south, in two sets of three; one set of three halfway between the left wall and the middle, and the other set of three halfway between the right wall and the middle.

You think you can hear something. A sowrd clash? But distant... almost tinny.

Barb, Loosening his Tachis and placing his hands upon his KABARS, Look for the source of the sounds.

"Be on guard, people." He rumbles.

Heph continues his walk down the hall, not having to worry about unsheathing his own weapons or whatnot.

"You guys hear that?"

Suddenly, there is a clunk sound (possibly causing some of you to draw) as two great lights come on, illuminating the areas between pillars, one area to your left and one to the right.

That is followed by a second clunk, and a third. So that now six areas between pillars are illuminated brightly.

Within each one are what seem to be wide dioramas... of battles. They are animated, in some way you cannt quite fathom, and the view sometimes seems to shift.

From the south, near where you are, the sounds coming from these views are those of metal on metal, and the like. But furhter along, to the North, you can hear the sounds of gunfire emanating.

Cloud will draw both his swords, cautious of the displays.

"Some kind of museum?" He asks, rhetorically.

"I wonder if he thinks much of being a warlord," Hawk says sarcastically. He watches the dioramas with wary eyes.

Well, a close look at the dioramas shows that they have a considerable level of detail.

---

Diorama 1- A vast siege of a city in dry plains, maybe in a desert. Inside, huddled civilians in rags cower in terror. Outside the city lays a large army, that has blocked the entrances to the city, and has built great war towers around it. The soldiers are well-armed, some riding chariots.

---

Diorama 2- A battle by a large river, running across the diorama. The armies are well clad in broinze weaponry and armour. One on bank, the army is vast, cavalry near the river backed by infantry behind. The army on the othe side of the river is far smaller, with well armoured cavalry on the flank and many spear and shield wielding men in formation near the middle.

---

Diorama 3- A large square of infantry is on a hill. Down below them is a larger army, with impressive armoured horsemen armed with lances. Both sides are outfitted with metal weapons. There is a noticeable difference in skin tone between the armies; those on the hill pale and white, those down below of dark complexion.

---

Diorama 4- Atop a hill, with hastily thrown together fortifications, a group of musket-armed men hold the ground, The hill is near a town, where rifle-armed men are ready to fire on their foes. The attackers are redcoat wearing massed ranks of infantry, disembarking from boats out on the nearby coast.

---

Diorama 5- By far the largest single engagement. Two massive armies are drawn up on green fields. There is a vast variety of colours and shades on the uniforms on both sides sides, but one side at least has a very notable concentration of blue. Large artillery pieces fire out from both sides; the side in blue is on the offensive against the other side, who are behind enormous redoubts and other defensive positions. Smoke from musket and cannon fire covers the battlefield.

---

Diorama 6- This is not a single engagement; the scene shifts continuously. There are no elegant formations here; men in field grey uniforms move forward in small squads, backed by small field guns and huge guns behind the the battlefront. Up against them are men in colourful blue uniforms, also backed by field pieces, or sometimes men in khaki, few in number but laying down fast and effective rifle fire. The battle seems to revolve around the securing of a river; the men in grey are trying to throw the others out of the theatre.

-----

Particular questions about each battle can be asked. Things appear to be developing in each.

Melkor looks closer at Diorama 1, which is the only one that seems to involve civillians. What kind of city is it?

"It seems that he still wants to become a better general, lack of purpose notwithstanding". -He comments thoughtfully.

The city is of stone and seems of reasonable size. It is definitely ancient.

Does it seem that this is a real historic event, or just a theoretical simulation? Let`s say Melkor liked history at school.

Let's say you did! What do you think?

Do I see any outfits or anything resembling ancient Egypt? Perhaps Pharaoh`s army lays siege to a city in ancient Syria?

The landscape would fit but not the army.

Army of the Persian King, perhaps? Is the army laying the siege composed of varied skin colors?

Well, I am pretty confident that what I learnt at school is the real earth history? Machines would have no reason to change it, right? The thought is a bit unsettling...

It's damn hard to be sure., You can't even be certain what year it is, your own records are so poor. All pre-war history you have ever received has, technically, been from the machines. Who knows? This all started in a Museum- purporting to be history, recovered fossils and bones, but all entirely fake. That is the nature of the Matrix, and it is not just solid things. Knowledge is enslaved to the Machines also.

You don't notice anything particularly multi-cultural about the civilians.

Hawk focuses on the 4th diorama. "I think this is part of the American Revolutionary War..."

If I may take a wild guess, I'd say the Battle of Bunker Hill?

I was asking more about the army on this....

But if he studies human warfare still..... Machines learned much from humans, didn`t they?

It is indeed Bunker Hill, fought, of course, on anything but Bunker Hill.

-

The army is not totally homogenous, though it is hard to tell much detail. But nor is it staggeringly multi-cultural either.

And, well... you can draw your own conclusions.

Wouldn`t Machines think of themselves as something like next step of evolution, since they surpassed their own creators? From their point of view, they can do anything humans can, but are without many limitations....

Invading army looks like people from Middle East, definately not Greek or Roman?

Indeed not.

And they might...

"Yeah, this is it, alright," Hawk says, grinning as he remembers fully. "Fought on Breed's Hill, where the Colonists had holed themselves up. Took 'em three tries, but the British finally overran the defenses. Cost 'em over 1000 men, though..."

Hawk looks over at Diorama 2. Does either side look rather Roman?

Nope.

I'm guessing the 5th is from the American Civil War but what battle, I couldn't even attempt to make a guess at...

The predominant weapon in battle five is the musket.

Didn't notice it, well, I suppose that rules that one out. Hmmm.

Well the muzzle-loading rifled musket was the most common fire arm during the American Civil War, but I'm guessing you mean muskets from before the invention of rifling...

Berserker slowly looks over the battlefields. Berserker knew why the commandeer of the machines would want these. Besides the obvious that you get to see every tactic you could you also get to know they enemy.

But why no moderen battlefields?

A musket is smoothbore by definition. If it is rifled it is a rifle.

-

Fair question, Berserker, though you may need to define that term.

"So this King likely learned warfare based on human history.... But doesn`t he have unlimited ability to accumulate knowledge as a Machine? Would it make him possibly better than any human military genius in history? Do Machines even trully understand the meaning of word genius?" -Melkor wonders aloud.

Modern as in Gulf War and up. I would also think of future battles that have yet to come. Also you would think the leader of the machines would have something on his fight with the humans


Also I think the last one is the Civil War could be WW2 though BAttle of the Rhine

The 5th Battle I'm for sure is Napleonic warfare probably the Battle of Waterloo.

I think its obvious that the battles start from the earliest to the last.

Machines can read a dictionary, so what do you mean by 'understand'?

Originally posted by Newjak
Modern as in Gulf War and up. I would also think of future battles that have yet to come. Also you would think the leader of the machines would have something on his fight with the humans


Also I think the last one is the Civil War could be WW2 though BAttle of the Rhine

The 5th Battle I'm for sure is Napleonic warfare probably the Battle of Waterloo.

I think its obvious that the battles start from the earliest to the last.

Last one I'm thinking is one of the World Wars as well, but again, my knowledge of history isn't great enough to identify specific battles.

The diffrence between logical reasoning that Machines should be masters of and the brilliant spark of genius, perhaps? It is scary to think that Machines have no area in which they are inferior to humans....

Originally posted by Newjak
Modern as in Gulf War and up. I would also think of future battles that have yet to come. Also you would think the leader of the machines would have something on his fight with the humans


Also I think the last one is the Civil War could be WW2 though BAttle of the Rhine

The 5th Battle I'm for sure is Napleonic warfare probably the Battle of Waterloo.

I think its obvious that the battles start from the earliest to the last.

You aren't sure about brightly coloured uniforms on the Rhine.

And no redocats at battle 5, which is always a giveaway.

There are indeed no 21st century battles.

Originally posted by Lord Melkor
The diffrence between logical reasoning that Machines should be masters of and the brilliant spark of genius, perhaps? It is scary to think that Machines have no area in which they are inferior to humans....

Well, if we assume that genius is something beyond a machine, what does genius achieve? Does it have value in its own right or only in what it produces? And the same question again, narrowed down for warfare alone?

"Hmmm" Barb whispers, looking closely at the Depictions. "What strategic value would come from studying such dated battles and tactics?"

Fair question. Simply as a means of strategy or tactics these things have no relevance to today.

Diorama 2 doesn`t happen to be the battle of Issus, by wild guess?

Well, perhaps warfare can be reduced to logic, at the end, if we take apart and analyze all elements? But there is a factor of the ability to take risks, make quick decisions, and understand your opponents.... actually personality traits of the commander may be a big issue. But perhaps everything at the end can be reduced to logic, propabillities, numbers...

But if we see war as a huge game of chess, shouldn`t the Machine always have an advantage?

Maybe as a study of how humans act in situations of war and possibly how they act out of desperation?

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well, if we assume that genius is something beyond a machine, what does genius achieve? Does it have value in its own right or only in what it produces? And the same question again, narrowed down for warfare alone?

In my opinion, genius only has value through what it produces. Otherwise, it's simply wasted potential.

And while the strategy itself would not be very useful today, it is still a window into how humans think and act, which could be the King's best weapon.

But how do you classify the work of genius as having value?

Edit- and yes, I think understanding human personality in regards to warfare would be the main goal here.

Interesting thoughts all.

If genius only matters for its results, then consider the situation from a Machine point of view. if they can get results that are as good as that genius produces- why need genius?

-

If warfare was a game of chess, machines would be unbeatable.

But it took them much longer to create a programme that could win at, say, Go.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
And while the strategy itself would not be very useful today, it is still a window into how humans think and act, which could be the King's best weapon.

And here we get into my specialty!

If you work out how someone thinks, you can also reasonably figure out how they may act or react in a certain situation. Likewise, you can often figure out what someone may be thinking because of their actions. About the only things you can't reasonably predict is a stroke of genius or act of desperation - though studying how people act can at least give you some slight idea of how they may act when desperate.

Well, let's throw in something.

What does Seraph say to Neo in Reloaded?

But "result" is too much of a vague term. Sometimes it isn`t easy to decide which result is better- people have diffrent criterias, preferences etc.

I think that the goal of this programme was to understand how human mind works in regards to warfare- the unpredictable element.

Edit- San said it well, I think.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well, let's throw in something.

What does Seraph say to Neo in Reloaded?

I don't actually remember as I haven't seen that in a long time...

(goes to look it up)

Originally posted by Lord Melkor
But "result" is too much of a vague term. Sometimes it isn`t easy to decide which result is better- people have diffrent criterias, preferences etc.

I think that the goal of this programme was to understand how human mind works in regards to warfare- the unpredictable element.

Edit- San said it well, I think.

'Result' has a very specific and important meaning in warfare, though.

Originally posted by Lord Melkor
But how do you classify the work of genius as having value?

If the work produced benefits or enhances humanity in some way, I'd say that would be genius having value.

From a war standpoint (and in answer to Ush) genius can have an edge over pure logic, I think. Primarily because genius can be spontaneous and entirely illogical, while still being genius.

For example, the first humans freed from the Matrix re-engineering Machinery so that they can get back into the Matrix, but still be in control. Not a logical action at all from a self-preservation view, but as it helps slightly to level the ground between sides I would say it was genius.

So is "military genius" just the person who has the best results? Why we admire the likes of Hannibal when there were generals who are not well known but likely never lost a major battle?

Originally posted by Lana
I don't actually remember as I haven't seen that in a long time...

(goes to look it up)

Nvm, found it!

Seraph said that you don't really know someone until you've fought them.

But take my point from a dry perspective- A result in a battle is whether you win. You can apply a difference to that tactically or strategically, but there is still a definite result.

When it comes to battle, if the Machines win with the same, or even superior, margin as that produced by a genius, why need genius? The result is all that mattters.

So if they aim for a system that gives them those results, you could see how such factors as genius would be ignored by them.

Besides, 'Genius' implies some meausre of accident of birth, and life development. Machines, though, don't work like that. They are created with purpose. A machine 'genius' would be built to be one.

Originally posted by Lord Melkor
So is "military genius" just the person who has the best results? Why we admire the likes of Hannibal when there were generals who are not well known but likely never lost a major battle?

Well, that is a fair question. But when it comes to battles, no-one ever got a reputation of genius for failing, no matter how unfair that was.

In warfare, it's ALWAYS been about winning. It's not a nice environment.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
If the work produced benefits or enhances humanity in some way, I'd say that would be genius having value.

From a war standpoint (and in answer to Ush) genius can have an edge over pure logic, I think. Primarily because genius can be spontaneous and entirely illogical, while still being genius.

For example, the first humans freed from the Matrix re-engineering Machinery so that they can get back into the Matrix, but still be in control. Not a logical action at all from a self-preservation view, but as it helps slightly to level the ground between sides I would say it was genius.

Hmm, but if we analyze the famous battles of the likes of Hannibal or Ceasar, aren`t their plans usually logical? Perhaps it is just the logic others cannot grasp at the moment?

And also non-military factors can greatly affect warfare- like leader`s charisma affecting morale, for example.