Women and Religion

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Alliance
Throught history, around the globe, women have had a unique place in religion, often at the bottom. Religion has been used to further subjugate women. Other religions have placed women at the forefront of the clergy.

This is a thread to discuss the role of women in relgion, religion's role in women, and the relation between the two.

TRH
Islam And Christianity come to mind when you speak of women at the bottom

Tangible God
A woman's responsible for original sin. A woman cuts Samson's coif of power. A woman asks for the head of John the Baptist. The Bible portrays women as bigger antagonists than the Romans and Egyptians combined. It stinks.

Nellinator
Actually, the Bible states that death is through Adam, not Eve. They are considered equally guilty by Biblical standards. Samson is also equally guilty, if not more guilty by Biblical standards as Delilah in that story. Men are responsible for the mass majority of evil in the Bible, Ahab, Omri, Ramses, Haman, Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin, the Pharisees, etc. Women are commended on many occasions:
Deborah as one of the greatest leaders (judges) of Israel before the kingdom was established, Moses's mother, the Egyptian princess, Moses's sister, Rahab (I think, just going off the top of my head) at the fall of Jericho, Esther, the prostitute in the NT, the Canaanite women by Jesus in the NT, Mary (mother of Jesus), the deaconesses by Paul, Beth-Sheba is considered innocent of iniquity in the account of David while David is held completely responsible, etc.

The only women considered truly evil in the Bible are Jezebel (truly horrific), Delilah, Job's wife, and the sin of Eve is up there as well although she was obviously forgiven.

Women are obviously secondary to men in the Bible which is both cultural and religious, but fairness exists and is evidenced by the rulership of Deborah and the fact that a woman was chosen to birth salvation into the world.

Nellinator
I also thought I'd mention that women's suffrage in Canada was championed by Nellie McClung, a Christian woman (whom, I feel like bragging I am related to smile).

Gregory
I can't speak for the OT, but in the New Testament, I don't think women are treated especially unfairly. Well, outside of the Pastorals.

To give a specific example of a woman being spoken of highly, "Greet Andronicus and Junia my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was."

Alliance
In the Greco-Roman world (which defined much of the Character of Palestine), women were always regarded as more pious then men. They were the gaurdians of the state, religion, and morals.

However, that is not to be confused with a "high" or "equal" or even close to equal position in society. Just becuase women have a role in society, doesn't mean it is a prominent one. Women were regarded as irrational and overly emotional, unable to make decisions, and untrustworthy.

Nellinator
Which is not true in the Bible. Women are in many prominent positions and shown to be very effective. Deborah was one of the top three judges in Israel (the best in my opinion) and Esther was able to save the entire Jewish people in the Persian kingdom. Samuel's mother was the one that made the decision that Samuel would be raised in the Temple and her prayer to God is considered one of the model prayers in the Bible.

Alfheim
The Celts were ahead of their time in terms of womens rights I might post an article later.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Alfheim
The Celts were ahead of their time in terms of womens rights I might post an article later.

Very much so.

Originally posted by Alliance
Throught history, around the globe, women have had a unique place in religion, often at the bottom. Religion has been used to further subjugate women. Other religions have placed women at the forefront of the clergy.

This is a thread to discuss the role of women in relgion, religion's role in women, and the relation between the two.

I disagree. I also disagree that all religion was opressive of women throughout history.
Perhaps in Abrahamic religious history?
Not sure about the Jewish women and their roles.


Anyway, here are some examples -

Quote on Persian women (thanks wiki) -

We venerate the righteous woman who is good in thoughts, words, and deeds, who is well-educated, is an authority on religious affairs, is progressively serene, and is like the women who belong to the Wise God. (Gathas - Aiwisruthrem Gah 9)

Zoroastrians also considered absolute equality between the two sexes.
Buddhism considers absolute equality between the two sexes.
Celts recognised women as equals.

If we look at the Egyptian women, they too had freedom within religion, and society like no other women at the time.

I found a quote on it here, which is not in regards to religion per se but its interesting in regards to society -

...but the Egyptians themselves, in most of their manners and customs, exactly the reverse the common practices of mankind. For example, the women attend the markets and trade, while the men sit at home and weave at the loom... The women likewise carry burdens upon their shoulders while the men carry them upon their heads... Sons need not support their parents unless they chose, but daughters must, whether they chose to or not.

-- The History of Herodotus Book II, Herodotus

Alliance
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I also disagree that all religion was opressive of women throughout history.

I never said all, I said "often".

FeceMan
Originally posted by Tangible God
A woman's responsible for original sin. A woman cuts Samson's coif of power. A woman asks for the head of John the Baptist. The Bible portrays women as bigger antagonists than the Romans and Egyptians combined. It stinks.
You are unlearned. Begone and fornicate with Urizen.

Phoenix*Rising
Before Christianity many pagan religions had "Woman" as the spiritual leader being one that could create within herself. Woman were thought very highly of. The Old Testament also had many Priestesses and Judges that were woman. Woman seem to have an intuitive sense in some things that they can access. Maybe this is why.

TRH
Originally posted by FeceMan
You are unlearned. Begone and fornicate with Urizen.


You are retarded.Begone and fornicate with your playmate jesus

lord xyz
With all the religions talking about women as a subject in its own right, it implies that religion is thought of those who think a lot about women, IE men. So since religion is generally a man thing, and women just tend to follow, it shows men's dominance.

In simple terms, religion has shown that men own women.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by lord xyz
With all the religions talking about women as a subject in its own right, it implies that religion is thought of those who think a lot about women, IE men. So since religion is generally a man thing, and women just tend to follow, it shows men's dominance.

In simple terms, religion has shown that men own women.

Your logic is flawed. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Punkyhermy
Islam is probably the only religion where women are elevated to a position higher than their male counterparts.
smile

TRH
hilarious PH

Alfheim
Originally posted by TRH
hilarious PH

She is joking right?

TRH
hope so

Alfheim
Originally posted by TRH
hope so

I think I remember her in one thread sticking up for Islam...so from what I can remember she could actually be serious. If she is its going to be hilarious.

Better not jump to conlusions just yet.....

Phoenix*Rising
Then she is clueless.

ragesRemorse
Men have bigger muscles and balls. Thats why we are men, and thats why we are on top and woman are on bottom laughing Happy Dance

hahahahahahahahahahhhahahahahah men Rule and woman drool stick out tongue smokin'

TRH
ha ha ha you need to be shot you sexist fascist redneck ha ha ha ha so funny

Punkyhermy
Originally posted by TRH
hilarious PH

You don't know anything about what you are talking about here, trust me. wink

TRH
Originally posted by Punkyhermy
You don't know anything about what you are talking about here, trust me. wink yes I do,have you ever met a Muslim out of curiosity

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by Nellinator
Ramses

He's not in the bible.

Lord Urizen
You guys wanna know about women and Islam ?




http://timescolumns.typepad.com/gledhill/2007/03/saudi_woman_get.html

Nellinator
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
He's not in the bible. Fine, the Egyptian pharoah commonly believed to Ramses II.

ragesRemorse
Originally posted by TRH
ha ha ha you need to be shot you sexist fascist redneck ha ha ha ha so funny

What part of my quote leads you to infer that i am fascist, or a redkneck? I am sexist though...dont hate me cuz i get da bush more dan you eek!

Alfheim
Originally posted by Punkyhermy
You don't know anything about what you are talking about here, trust me. wink


Oh my god shes serious.... eek!

TRH
Originally posted by ragesRemorse
What part of my quote leads you to infer that i am fascist, or a redkneck? I am sexist though...dont hate me cuz i get da bush more dan you eek! I was angry and your post was stupid and spam like so i just assumed

Alliance
Originally posted by TRH
ha ha ha you need to be shot you sexist fascist redneck ha ha ha ha so funny

Ummm, sexism us fine...redneck for good measure...

facism is not present here.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I think I remember her in one thread sticking up for Islam...so from what I can remember she could actually be serious. If she is its going to be hilarious.

Because someone who sticks up for Islam is magically an Islamic sycophant? No wonder you and I have been at loggerheads.

Phoenix*Rising
Originally posted by Nellinator
Fine, the Egyptian pharoah commonly believed to Ramses II. I think that is the pharoah that was to of lived at the time of Moses. But then again another story is that Moses was a pharaoh also, but went by a different name.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Alliance

No wonder you and I have been at loggerheads.

We have been at logger heads because you dont LISTEN. It doesnt matter what anybody has to say about anything you basically have your ideas and dont listen to what anybody has to say....you are an argumentative waste of time.

The fact of the matter her statement was incorrect and I was right.


Is this statement correct?????

Originally posted by Punkyhermy
Islam is probably the only religion where women are elevated to a position higher than their male counterparts.
smile

Eccentric
No, has anyone read the book "Not Without My Daughter", by Betty Mahmoody?

((The_Anomaly))
Originally posted by ragesRemorse
Men have bigger muscles and balls. Thats why we are men, and thats why we are on top and woman are on bottom laughing Happy Dance

hahahahahahahahahahhhahahahahah men Rule and woman drool stick out tongue smokin'

LMAO laughing

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Punkyhermy
Islam is probably the only religion where women are elevated to a position higher than their male counterparts.
smile
That isn't true.

As far as monotheism goes, Zoroastrianism was the only monotheic religion which considered male and female to be equal.

All other did the opposite. Islam being one of them.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
That isn't true.

As far as monotheism goes, Zoroastrianism was the only monotheic religion which considered male and female to be equal.

All other did the opposite. Islam being one of them.


Buddhism also sees women and men as equal. smile

siriuswriter
Nellinator, I must say that I have to disagree with you on your perception of women's importance in the bible. Whenever people want to bring out the importance of women in the bible, they always say Deborah and Esther and/or Ruth. Pretty much because there are really no other choices. Yes, Esther and Ruth have their own books, but the bible was set in a patriarchal society... Abraham said that Sarah was his sister at one point so that he wouldn't be murdered. I'm pretty sure she had no say in that decision. And Jacob being deceived, thinking he was going to marry Rachel when really he was marrying Leah? I'm pretty sure that the women, if they could have, would have spoken up about that.

There were no women disciples, no women prophets. One woman judge that we know about. Whoopee. It's very easy to point to those women and say, "Well they're there, so it must be easy for women to get to those positions." But they were the exceptions to the rule.

Also - Adam and Eve. Eve has been the scapegoat for centuries in churches to keep women suppressed. There are no women clergy in the Catholic Church because women are supposedly tainted with "original sin." Women "fell for it" when Eve took the Apple from the snake. More Evangelical Protestant churches also believe that the woman is "weaker," and should submit to the man. I recently attended a wedding of evangelical persuasion where the woman was instructed to "submit to her husband..."

Yikes.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by siriuswriter
Nellinator, I must say that I have to disagree with you on your perception of women's importance in the bible. Whenever people want to bring out the importance of women in the bible, they always say Deborah and Esther and/or Ruth. Pretty much because there are really no other choices. Yes, Esther and Ruth have their own books, but the bible was set in a patriarchal society... Abraham said that Sarah was his sister at one point so that he wouldn't be murdered. I'm pretty sure she had no say in that decision. And Jacob being deceived, thinking he was going to marry Rachel when really he was marrying Leah? I'm pretty sure that the women, if they could have, would have spoken up about that.

There were no women disciples, no women prophets. One woman judge that we know about. Whoopee. It's very easy to point to those women and say, "Well they're there, so it must be easy for women to get to those positions." But they were the exceptions to the rule.

Also - Adam and Eve. Eve has been the scapegoat for centuries in churches to keep women suppressed. There are no women clergy in the Catholic Church because women are supposedly tainted with "original sin." Women "fell for it" when Eve took the Apple from the snake. More Evangelical Protestant churches also believe that the woman is "weaker," and should submit to the man. I recently attended a wedding of evangelical persuasion where the woman was instructed to "submit to her husband..."

Yikes.




Silence WOMAN ! God does NOT give you permission to SPEAK !



"let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law, and if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for woman to speak in the church."

1Corinthians 14:34-35

lord xyz
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Your logic is flawed. roll eyes (sarcastic) Not really. We won, they lost. We managed to be the dominant sex for over 2000 years. big grin

Alliance
laughing Fail.

siriuswriter
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Silence WOMAN ! God does NOT give you permission to SPEAK !



"let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law, and if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for woman to speak in the church."

1Corinthians 14:34-35

Shame this woman thinks the bible is chock full of errors, historical references, translational errors, idioms, anachronisms, and the like, then, isn't it?

lord xyz
Originally posted by siriuswriter
Shame this woman thinks the bible is chock full of errors, historical references, translational errors, idioms, anachronisms, and the like, then, isn't it? Urizen is joking; he does this all the time.

Alliance
Unless he's actually quite serious...

lord xyz
Originally posted by Alliance
Unless he's actually quite serious... I doubt he knows of the word.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by siriuswriter
Shame this woman thinks the bible is chock full of errors, historical references, translational errors, idioms, anachronisms, and the like, then, isn't it?



DID I GIVE YOU PERMISSION TO SPEAK WOMAN ?



HOW DARE YOU CONTENT THE ARGUMENT OF A MAN ! YOU AND YOUR KIND HAVE CAUSED THE DOWNFALL OF MANKIND !

IT IS NOT YOUR DUTY TO QUESTION OR THINK ! YOU ARE SIMPLY HERE TO SERVE MAN, COOK OUR DINNERS AND GIVE BIRTH !

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by lord xyz
I doubt he knows of the word.


What word ?

lord xyz
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
What word ? Serious.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by lord xyz
Serious.



What does that mean ?

siriuswriter
Yes I know he's joking; my sense of humor is fairly sarcastic and cynical as well. big grin



Hmmmmmmm. *dumps burnt spaghetti on Lord Urzien's lap*

Yes. Very good then.



Eh?

TRH
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
DID I GIVE YOU PERMISSION TO SPEAK WOMAN ?



HOW DARE YOU CONTENT THE ARGUMENT OF A MAN ! YOU AND YOUR KIND HAVE CAUSED THE DOWNFALL OF MANKIND !

IT IS NOT YOUR DUTY TO QUESTION OR THINK ! YOU ARE SIMPLY HERE TO SERVE MAN, COOK OUR DINNERS AND GIVE BIRTH ! confused

Punkyhermy
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
That isn't true.

As far as monotheism goes, Zoroastrianism was the only monotheic religion which considered male and female to be equal.

All other did the opposite. Islam being one of them.

ms. bitchiness, you don't really know what you are talking about half the time here i'm afraid. erm

lord xyz
Originally posted by siriuswriter
Yes I know he's joking; my sense of humor is fairly sarcastic and cynical as well. big grin Awesome! w00t

I do that aswell. Damn, you're good. sly

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