RotS Mace Windu VS RotS Count Dooku

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Battlemaster
Alright, the first setting here is the Chancellor's office, where Palpy did the tango with Mace and was kicked on his ass.

Second setting is the throne room of the Invisible Hand where Anakin went "all out" and managed to just barely overcome Dooku.

In both of these arena's Lightsabers and Force powers are used.


Who do you think would win?

Battlemaster
Alright, this should be a bit better.

My apologies to the Admin's.

darthsith19
It shouldn't matter where they fight.

Mace lost to Dooku prior to TPM. This was when Mace was barely betetr than Qui-Gon so this in no way makes Dooku above Mace.

Mace's databank says that he's on par with Yoda. Yoda is stronger than Dooku.

Dark Rendezvous says that Mace and Dooku are perhaps even.

In Obsession he and Mace fight. Dooku chooses to flee, so he at least didn't believe that he could beat Mace and, seeing as how cocky Dooku is, if he doesn't believe he can ebat Mace then Mace must really be stronger. Or else Mace was winning so Dooku fled, so that puts Mace above Dooku.

Mace beat Palpatine in a saber duel. Palaptine > Dooku.

Finally, Lucas says that "you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor." no mention of Dooku.


So Mace > Dooku (it is close, though).

vader11
Originally posted by darthsith19
It shouldn't matter where they fight.

Mace lost to Dooku prior to TPM. This was when Mace was barely betetr than Qui-Gon so this in no way makes Dooku above Mace.

Mace's databank says that he's on par with Yoda. Yoda is stronger than Dooku.

Dark Rendezvous says that Mace and Dooku are perhaps even.

In Obsession he and Mace fight. Dooku chooses to flee, so he at least didn't believe that he could beat Mace and, seeing as how cocky Dooku is, if he doesn't believe he can ebat Mace then Mace must really be stronger. Or else Mace was winning so Dooku fled, so that puts Mace above Dooku.

Mace beat Palpatine in a saber duel. Palaptine > Dooku.

Finally, Lucas says that "you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor." no mention of Dooku.


So Mace > Dooku (it is close, though).
Yes. This will be a close fight, but Mace may win at last...
BTW, did Lucas only mean that what "Jedi" can compete with Emperor? (Coz Dooku is on Emperor's side) (I don't know though, so I am just asking)
PS: Lucas said that "you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor." No mention of Plo Koon.laughing

Rampant ox
Just a couple of things before I leave this thread to ts own devices...

Originally posted by darthsith19
Mace's databank says that he's on par with Yoda. Yoda is stronger than Dooku.

Which means a total of nothing. Dooku is better than Obi-Wan, who just happened to beat Anakin - but heck, Anakin bet Dooku! This makes no sense and neither does your A>B>C argument.



The quote is "Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground...". This is saying that the only other Jedi to have a chance at beating Dooku would beat Mace.



No, it doesnt. Because Dooku ran away didnt mean he was losing, or that he was going to lose. It meant that there was a chance that Mace could win (Which I dont think any of the people on these forums will argue). A chance Dooku didnt want to take. Dooku valued his own life more than Mace's therefore didnt want to risk it. Mace on the otherhand knew that if he was to beat Dooku then it would be a considerable blow to the CIS. Another words, even though there was every chance he could have won, there was also a possibility (however small) that Mace could also have won.



Which means a total of nothing. Dooku is better than Obi-Wan, who just happened to beat Anakin - but heck, Anakin bet Dooku! This makes no sense and neither does your A>B>C argument.



Firstly when was this quote stated? If it was in the commentary after Dooku died then it can be disregarded. Secondly, I dont see why Dooku would want to compete with the Emperor. Yes he is treacherous sith, but Palpatine was not his enemy - unlike Yoda and Mace who can clearly be identified as Sids enemies

I shall leave this thread now because I know that these boards are filled with Mace loving, Dooku hating fanboys.

Blaxican
woah woah waoh, Mr. Ox. Were did all the hostility come from?

vader11
Originally posted by Rampant ox

I shall leave this thread now because I know that these boards are filled with Mace loving, Dooku hating fanboys.
At least you have another friend - Count...

PS: BTW, you are right. Fanboy>anything, such as Plo Koon...><
Sometimes it is better to leave when fanboys are there...

Rampant ox
Originally posted by Blaxican
woah woah waoh, Mr. Ox. Were did all the hostility come from?

Well I failed my hunk of sh*t Accounting assignment today and im in a bad mood. And I cant stand it when people say that Mace will beat the Count. I hate SLJ - he will never compare to Mr Lee.

I guess you could say im on the edge. ninja

allfg
SLJ>>CManLee.
Count Dooku>>>>>Mace Windu.

Realistically, Dooku destroys Mace, and I'm a Mace Windu fan (that's not a lie, ask anyone, I even used to be known as The Mace Windu fanboy, so you know it's not bias on my part, just ask Gideon).

He has mastered a form designed for dueling, when dueling techniques were mostly obsolete during the PT times.

He has way more experience with the saber.

He's quicker and more agile, as can be seen in his duels in the movies, and his ability to keep up with lightsaber users such as Yoda, Anakin and Obi-Wan.

He's pretty damn strong, as can be seen in his duel with Anakin and Obi-Wan, when he blocks two overhead swings form both Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, while only holding onto his saber with one hand.

Dooku's also extremely adept at pulling off quick force attacks while dueling, it's something he almost always does throughout the different duels he's been in. You see, he only duels with one hand, leaving a hand ready to pull off a quick force attack. His tactics seem to be working away at his opponent with his saber and keeping his opponent busy through those means, and then pulling off an attack with the force, for which they can't apply a defence to as they are far too busy with his saber. He does it in his duels with Obi-Wan and Anakin (in both AotC and RotS), in his duel with Tholme and Sora Bulq, and in countless others.

Mace Windu just doesn't compare. He could barely handle Sidious' whack as fvck stupid stab movements, his strikes were completely lacking in fluidity, he was slow and his foot and body movements just appeared unnatural. Mace could hardly even trouble Dooku when they fought during the Clone Wars, and Dooku was basically toying with him. I say Dooku takes this, any and every time.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by allfg
SLJ>>CManLee.
Count Dooku>>>>>Mace Windu.

Realistically, Dooku destroys Mace, and I'm a Mace Windu fan (that's not a lie, ask anyone, I even used to be known as The Mace Windu fanboy, so you know it's not bias on my part, just ask Gideon).
Yet another piss poor argument by a piss poor debater. I shouldn't even need to post any proof other than Dooku himself thinks Mace is good enough to beat him. Furthermore, he defeated Sidious, and Sidious>Dooku, so I guess you lose again.


Irrelevant


That logic dies when we see a 900 year old Yoda stalemate Sidious.

He's quicker and more agile, as can be seen in his duels in the movies, and his ability to keep up with lightsaber users such as Yoda, Anakin and Obi-Wan.


Irrelevant, watch the CW cartoons, read shatterpoint.


More irrelevant crap.



Good god you're embarassing. Just stop posting.

allfg
So many flaws for an already flawed form of argument.

1. ABC arguments are lame.

2. Dooku doesn't think that Mace can beat him, that's a lie.

3. Sidious likely held back against Mace.

4. Mace beat Sidious in a saber battle, not a force fight. Where's the proof that Sidious is greater with a blade than Dooku?



LOL! So posting that Dooku utilises a form designed for dueling when discussing who would win in a battle that would always end up as a duel is irrelevant. Ok!



We're talking in terms of sabers here, dipshit. We don't know how the duel between Yoda and Sidious ended, all we know is that from what we did see, Sidious was struggling.



1. Do you actually know what the fricking meaning of irrelevant is? You're such a moron.

2. It's your job to provide proof for your claims, not mine to read sources and find the proof myself.

3. From what I remember, any seemingly strength related feat was achieved through shatterpoint, which is a testament to his shatterpoint ability and not his physical strength.



You do know that I could just be a moron too and post 'irrelevant' after everything you say like you're doing right now, right?



Hold up, don't you usually say 'you're embarrassing yourself'. Now it's just 'you're embarassing'? Wow, good job big guy, you're coming up with new material, I love that.

darthsith19
No, he just said "You have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor." No mention of just the Jedi.

Yes, but Kenobi only beat Anakin because Anakin gos sloppy. And it still puts Mace on a higher level than it puts Dooku.

No, it doesn't mean he only has a chance, it means that amongst the Jedi Mace is perhaps the only other Jedi besides Yoda who is Dooku's equal. It means besides Yoda Mace might be the only other Jedi who can be even with Dooku.

Yes, there was a chance that Mace would win, a chance greater than 50%. if it was less than a 50% chance Dooku wouldn't have ran away. That thing about Dooku valuing his own life is bull, there is no proof on that. Plus Mace wouldn't have killed him if he could have beaten him without killing him. Beating Mace would be a considerable blow to the Jedi Order, too. Just as much as killing Dooku would be because Grievous could still lead the CIS and he'd just have to answer directly to Sidious. So no, there's no proof that Dooku values his life more than mace does, and if Dooku was afraid then he could have fought Mace alongside his 2 Magnaguards, but he obviously wasn't even confident enough to do that, so no, until you can prove that Dooku valued his life more than Mace did then Mace was indeed winning. He also says to mace "You won't kill me. Not today." signifying that he did indeed believe that Mace could kill him.

it's better than any arguement that you came up with proving that Dooku > Mace. oh wait, you had no arguement. roll eyes (sarcastic)

ESB AC, during the fight between Luke and Vader. Mace was dead by this point, too, so it doesn't matter that Dooku was dead.

This is a load of bull and you know it. You know as well as I do that Sith Apprentices are supposed to become stronger than their masters and kill them. So yes, Dooku did want to compete with the Emperor. And it wouldn't matter anyways, as it was still stated that he was unable to compete with the Emperor when Mace and Yoda are able to.


Now for Allfq:

Yeah, and Mace created a form, which is more impressive than merely mastering a form.

Speculation. just because he has been around for longer doesn't mean that he has more experience.

In Shatterpoint Mace moves his hands faster than the eye can see. There's no proof that Dooku can move that fast and no proof that Mace was using his full speed in the duel with Sidious. Plus Mace is younger and won't tire as quickly. Dooku tired from a minute and a half of fighting Kenobi and Skywalker.
Mace wouldn't tire than quickly.

Kenobi was using offense, which he isn't very good at, and Anakin wasn't able to go all out because Kenobi was in the way. Mace put Siidous on his ass, this is more impressive than anything that Dooku did.

Nothing that Dooku does with his hand will stop Mace. Lightning can be blocked, so cal telekinesis. Plus, while Dooku is using the Force Mace will stab him with his saber. Plus he didn't use the Force with Yoda, why wasn't he using the Force against Anakin either of the times that he fought him? No, he won't be able to use the Force while dueling Mace.

Sidious is a better saber wielder than Dooku is and just because he wans't as fast in that fight doesn't mean anything. Since when did speed make you the best? And actually Mace did handle Sidious.

Wow, what a bunch of unsupported bullshit. there is absolutely NO proof that Dooku was toying with Mace in that duel.

True, but not as lame as your bullshit posts.

Wrong. GL says that mace overpowered Sidious.

Fought Yoda better with a saber, Gillard says that Sidious is a level 9 swordsman and Dooku's a level 8, Sidious kileld 3 strong Jedi Masters in 7 seconds, that's better than anything that Dooku's ever done with a blade. Agen Kolar >>> AOTC Anakin and it took Sidious 1 second to beat Agen but about 50 seconds for Dooku to beat Anakin.


And Darth Sexy, you know you could actually debate and not just post "irrelevant" a hundred times.

kamikz
I seriously doubt Agen Kolar >>> AOTC Anakin. Maybe >, but >>> is really overdoing it. AOTC Anakin was enough to actually challenge Dooku for a while, something I doubt Agen could do well at all....


And DS, from what we know, Sidious is alot faster than Dooku. Anakin (who kicked Dooku's ass), couldn't see anything but blurs watching either Mace or Sidious fight.... (By this I do not mean that they would pwn either Dooku or Anakin, but talking for their speed only)

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yet another piss poor argument by a piss poor debater. I shouldn't even need to post any proof other than Dooku himself thinks Mace is good enough to beat him. Furthermore, he defeated Sidious, and Sidious>Dooku, so I guess you lose again.


Irrelevant


That logic dies when we see a 900 year old Yoda stalemate Sidious.

He's quicker and more agile, as can be seen in his duels in the movies, and his ability to keep up with lightsaber users such as Yoda, Anakin and Obi-Wan.


Irrelevant, watch the CW cartoons, read shatterpoint.


More irrelevant crap.



Good god you're embarassing. Just stop posting.



NO KIDDING.

I completely agree with Darth Sexy on this one, plus on the line where it says that Dooku was trained in a style designed for dueling...

MACE WAS TOO!

Read it up, Juyo is not only the truly consummate style for lightsaber dueling but it the only other Form truly made for dueling besides Makashi.

That, and add to the fact that Mace uses and has mastered the Form of Vapaad, a Form that utilizes Shatterpoints and re-directs Dark side energy back in to the opponent or fuels the Vapaad practioner.

Realistically, Mace could whittle Dooku down to nothing in half the time it took him to beat Sidious.

Darth Sexy was right, It sounds like you need to read up and do your research, allfg.

Also, for any further arguments, I have at my disposal the Ultimate Mace Windu Feats List.

Located here, enjoy. wink
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEfyjOsXVP0

(It's a musical) shifty

allfg
You miss the point; Makashi is designed for dueling. Most dueling techniques had become obsolete by the PT times, so it's likely that when Mace created the form, he didn't include too many dueling elements. And Mace didn't technically create the form, he just expanded on Juyo, like Kas'im did to all the forms.



What the..?
If you're trying to argue that Mace has more experience than a former lightsaber instructor that has been using a saber for



DS, you know my stance on things that contradict what we see in the movie.



Why wouldn't Mace use his full speed against Sidious?



Dooku was able to completely revitalise himself with the force in the RotS novelisation. With the force, age means little.



Proof?



Despite using on of the most energy consuming forms, when Dooku uses the least?



You're missing the point. Dooku's gotta require some pretty damn good strength to block two overhead attacks at the same time, one of them being from someone as strong as Anakin Skywalker.



I'll address this l8r.



Read through my post again. Dooku can simultaneously use both the force and his saber. How is Mace going to defend against the force while defending against a saber strike?



I'm not saying he'll be able to use it all the time against anybody, just that he's adept at it. And he actually did do the very thing I'm talking about in RotS. Oh, and Mace is no Yoda.



Begs for proof.



Since liek 4eva! Just kidding obviously, I never said speed makes you the best, but it is a factor, and probably the biggest one when it comes to saber dueling.



Key word = 'barely.'
Not being able to prevent three of your allies getting killed, and being dominated for almost the entire duel = barely handling.



When I can get to the comic, I'll go into more detail. However, from what I remember, Mace was desperately trying to kill Dooku and was trying his hardest, and Dooku was taunting him the entire time. There's also the fact that he was able to force push him off a cliff at the end of the duel. Though I'll admit my choice of word wasn't great.



Excuse me? Wow, I really didn't expect this from you DS, completely uncalled for.



*Does not refute what I was saying*



How so? From what I saw, he struggled against Yoda the entire time. Dooku at least was able to hold his own against Yoda.



Gillard's not a canon source.



The fact alone sure sounds that way, however going into detail, it's pretty safe to say that it required little skill with a saber to do what Sidious did. I'm sure Dooku could kill them if they fought that way too.



AotC Anakin wasn't standing still now, was he?

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by allfg
You miss the point; Makashi is designed for dueling. Most dueling techniques had become obsolete by the PT times, so it's likely that when Mace created the form, he didn't include too many dueling elements. And Mace didn't technically create the form, he just expanded on Juyo, like Kas'im did to all the forms.



What the..?
If you're trying to argue that Mace has more experience than a former lightsaber instructor that has been using a saber for



DS, you know my stance on things that contradict what we see in the movie.



Why wouldn't Mace use his full speed against Sidious?



Dooku was able to completely revitalise himself with the force in the RotS novelisation. With the force, age means little.



Proof?



Despite using on of the most energy consuming forms, when Dooku uses the least?



You're missing the point. Dooku's gotta require some pretty damn good strength to block two overhead attacks at the same time, one of them being from someone as strong as Anakin Skywalker.



I'll address this l8r.



Read through my post again. Dooku can simultaneously use both the force and his saber. How is Mace going to defend against the force while defending against a saber strike?



I'm not saying he'll be able to use it all the time against anybody, just that he's adept at it. And he actually did do the very thing I'm talking about in RotS. Oh, and Mace is no Yoda.



Begs for proof.



Since liek 4eva! Just kidding obviously, I never said speed makes you the best, but it is a factor, and probably the biggest one when it comes to saber dueling.



Key word = 'barely.'
Not being able to prevent three of your allies getting killed, and being dominated for almost the entire duel = barely handling.



When I can get to the comic, I'll go into more detail. However, from what I remember, Mace was desperately trying to kill Dooku and was trying his hardest, and Dooku was taunting him the entire time. There's also the fact that he was able to force push him off a cliff at the end of the duel. Though I'll admit my choice of word wasn't great.



Excuse me? Wow, I really didn't expect this from you DS, completely uncalled for.



*Does not refute what I was saying*



How so? From what I saw, he struggled against Yoda the entire time. Dooku at least was able to hold his own against Yoda.



Gillard's not a canon source.



The fact alone sure sounds that way, however going into detail, it's pretty safe to say that it required little skill with a saber to do what Sidious did. I'm sure Dooku could kill them if they fought that way too.



AotC Anakin wasn't standing still now, was he?
http://www.roadkilltshirts.com/images/products/MORON-SMALL_1.jpg

kamikz
Your are?

allfg
Oh noes, I got picture owned. I think I'm going to have to cry.

Darth Sexy
You've already been text owned, I figure it's time we move on to something new.

Battlemaster
Yeah, I'd have to agree with that.

You don't know what the hell your talking about.

Battlemaster
Well, unless there are no more objections, We can clearly see Mace has won this.

allfg
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Yeah, I'd have to agree with that.

You don't know what the hell your talking about.

Oh my days, I wasn't even going to bother ripping your post apart because you've just joined and you seemed like a good guy, but whatever, this post says everything:

'That, and add to the fact that Mace uses and has mastered the Form of Vapaad, a Form that utilizes Shatterpoints and re-directs Dark side energy back in to the opponent or fuels the Vapaad practioner.'

Judging by your attitude and your sig, it seems you think you know everything about StarWars, yet coming out with rubbish like that it's pretty clear you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Advent
Originally posted by vader11
TW, you are right. Fanboy>anything, such as Plo Koon...><
Sometimes it is better to leave when fanboys are there...

You probably don't realize this, seeing as your fairly new to the forums, but Rampant's possibly the biggest Dooku fanboy to ever grace KMC.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by allfg
Oh my days, I wasn't even going to bother ripping your post apart because you've just joined and you seemed like a good guy, but whatever, this post says everything:
Good god you're in denial. To rip posts apart you have to be a decent debater at best. You are the worst debater on this forum, so I don't see you ripping anything apart. Stop lying to yourself tool.



Says the moron who gets pwned in every debate.

Rampant ox
Originally posted by Advent
You probably don't realize this, seeing as your fairly new to the forums, but Rampant's possibly the biggest Dooku fanboy to ever grace KMC.

Why thankyou. smile

Advent
Originally posted by Advent
You probably don't realize this, seeing as your fairly new to the forums, but Rampant's possibly the biggest most idiotic Dooku fanboy to ever grace KMC.

jollyjim311
Originally posted by Advent
You probably don't realize this, seeing as your fairly new to the forums, but Rampant's possibly the biggest Dooku fanboy to ever grace KMC.

But not to the point where we hate him. Some big Dooku fans... suck. It seems to be a trait that Rampant has grown out of.

Count Makashi
Originally posted by Rampant ox
I shall leave this thread now because I know that these boards are filled with Mace loving, Dooku hating fanboys.

Dooku wins and agrees with Rampant. Runs away.

Advent
Originally posted by jollyjim311
But not to the point where we hate him. Some big Dooku fans... suck. It seems to be a trait that Rampant has grown out of.

Since when? I haven't seen any cocoons laying around anywhere.

jollyjim311
Just since his days of "Dooku could beat Sidious in a small hallway," at least.

Maybe it's just me who doesn't hate him?

vader11
Mace wins~
The only chance that Dooku may beat Mace is a force fight...

Count Makashi
Originally posted by jollyjim311
But not to the point where we hate him. Some big Dooku fans... suck. It seems to be a trait that Rampant has grown out of.

Which Dooku fans, their is only me and Rampant, is there someone else, because i hadn't noticed it.

kamikz
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Just since his days of "Dooku could beat Sidious in a small hallway," at least.

Maybe it's just me who doesn't hate him?



I don't, infact, I don't mind his love for Dooku. But I almost don't mind anyone who has a biased for anything on the internet, doesn't have anything to do with me anyway....

jollyjim311
Originally posted by kamikz
I don't, infact, I don't mind his love for Dooku. But I almost don't mind anyone who has a biased for anything on the internet, doesn't have anything to do with me anyway....

Haha, a good way at looking at it, I guess.

vader11
Originally posted by Count Makashi
Which Dooku fans, their is only me and Rampant, is there someone else, because i hadn't noticed it.
You are a Koon's fan more than a Dooku's fan.laughing

Blaxican
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Well I failed my hunk of sh*t Accounting assignment today and im in a bad mood. And I cant stand it when people say that Mace will beat the Count. I hate SLJ - he will never compare to Mr Lee.

I guess you could say im on the edge. ninja

Blaxican the... Black, has always been your freind, and ally. Ignore Advent and her.. warmongering. Her.. malcontent.

darthsith19
Agen Kolar bested Quinlan Vos and was stated in the ROTS novel to be one of the order's strongest swordsmen. One of the ROTS order's strongest swordsmen >>> AOTC Anakin. So does Quinlan Vos. So Agen does, too.

Now I doubt it will be that easy but Mace does win.


Vaapad is nearly as good as Makashi is for dueling, Vaapad is good in every category, which is why it is the ultimate form. No, it wasn't designed primarily for dueling like Makashi was but it is good in everything, including dueling.

For what? Yes, a lightsaber instructor would get a lot of experience sparring with people who aren't much of a challenge, as far as real dueling goes, however, Mace could have as much or more experience than Dooku has.

Okay, and where does it say that Mace used his full speed in the movies? And who says that speed is what will matter the msot in a saber duel?

Maybe he'd sacrifice it for power or defense or accuracy.

Actually, the novel states that during the duel on the Invisible Hand that Dooku and Kenobi were getting tired but not Anakin. I'll post the exact quote if you wish me to. So yes, age does matter, the two oldest duelers in that fight got tired more quickly than the youngest one.

I can't give it to you right know, swtimeline.ru seems to not be working, but it says so in the ROTS novel. I'll try swtimeline again tomorrow.


Most energy consuming is Ataru and least is Soresu, so I don't now where you're getting this info from.

Blocking one strike? No, not really.

More importantly, how is Dooku going to use the Force while blocking Mace's saber? Lets see, when did Dooku use the Force before? Against Sora Bulq after who knows how many minutes of dueling and ROTS Kenobi when Kenobi was fighting with offense? That's not very impressive. He didn't use it against Anakin either time, or Yoda eitehr time. If he could have why didn't he?

He won't be able to use it against Mace, Mace is a Yoda, the databank says so, and if he's not good enough to use the Force on AOTC Anakin there's no way he can use it on Mace.

I addressed this later.

Defense, accuracy/precision and the ability to not make mistakes are at least as important.

How was he being dominated for almost the entire fight? On the contrary, it was pretty much even tell Sidious got kicked onto his ass.

Dooku talked a little, but no more than he talked to Anakin and Kenobi in ROTS, was he toying with them? And he talked just as much against Yoda in DR, was he toying with Yoda, too? I think not. Just because Dooku liked to taunt doesn't mean that he could beat anybody that he taunts, cause he sure as hell didn't beat ROTS Anakin and he taunted him a few times.

No offense, but your posts in this thread are pretty much bullshit, but at least I'm debating them and not just bashing you like most people do.

Overcome: to overcome, master, or subdue by superior force.

to gain mastery over the bodily powers or mental faculties of

In otherwords, Mace won fair and square.


Clean your eyes and watch again. I can't remember the times of the duels but Dooku did, at best, as well as Dooku did. Dooku ran after what? A single minute? Plus Yoda wasn't trying to kill Dooku, and he was trying to kill Sidious. Watch the scene where Yoda and Palpatine are saber dueling in the great Rotunda again, Yoda is moving slightly faster but besides that it seems almost exactly even.

Yes, he is. There is no reason why Gillard isn't as official as James Luceno or Timothy Zahn or any other EU author.

Somehow I doubt it, Agen and Saesee, maybe, Kit, no way. But I haven't ever seen Dooku leap like Palpatine did and generally he doesn't seem to fight like that, with quick leaps and stabs.

Neither was Agen. Watch is in slow motion. He moves.



And there was one really absurd Dooku fan, I believe Master Makashi was his name (not Count Makashi, he's not anywhere near as bad). Yeah, Rampant and Count Makashi are big fans but are at least somewhat realistic, Sorgo was "Dooku beats Sidious" and Master Makashi was "Dooku pwns all!"

Count Makashi
Originally posted by darthsith19
And there was one really absurd Dooku fan, I believe Master Makashi was his name (not Count Makashi, he's not anywhere near as bad). Yeah, Rampant and Count Makashi are big fans but are at least somewhat realistic, Sorgo was "Dooku beats Sidious" and Master Makashi was "Dooku pwns all!"

Why did he stop posting, was he baned, because of this.

darthsith19
No, he just left. Dunno why. He came back a few times, and changed his Screen Name to Lord Pyro, I think.

kamikz
Originally posted by darthsith19
Agen Kolar bested Quinlan Vos and was stated in the ROTS novel to be one of the order's strongest swordsmen. One of the ROTS order's strongest swordsmen >>> AOTC Anakin. So does Quinlan Vos. So Agen does, too.


Anakin actually challenged one swordsman who is much superior to Agen to a good duel. Anakin was a very noted swordsman even at this point, and in the duel between Yoda and Dooku it says something like, "Yoda fought better than even the chosen one at the top of his game", (of course, by top, it means by AOTC, not FP. The quote isn't exact, but something like that is stated). By saying "not even", I'm inclined to say that Anakin is one hell of a swordsman by AOTC as well, prolly better than most.
Again, I doubt Agen >>> Anakin since Dooku was barley that....
Doesn't >>> mean pwns?

vader11
Originally posted by darthsith19
And there was one really absurd Dooku fan, I believe Master Makashi was his name (not Count Makashi, he's not anywhere near as bad). Yeah, Rampant and Count Makashi are big fans but are at least somewhat realistic, Sorgo was "Dooku beats Sidious" and Master Makashi was "Dooku pwns all!" But Count Makashi says "Plo Koon pwns all!"laughing

Battlemaster
Originally posted by darthsith19
Vaapad is nearly as good as Makashi is for dueling, Vaapad is good in every category, which is why it is the ultimate form. No, it wasn't designed primarily for dueling like Makashi was but it is good in everything, including dueling.




No, no, no guys...

Vapaad is AS good for dueling as Makashi, IF not better.
Vapaad is a derivative of Juyo, Which was the art form borne during the earliest Sith Wars, as you may know, It was designed with the mind of dueling both projectile and melee wielding opponents on the battlefield.

Now remember, Juyo is equally good against opponents with blasters because of this.
Makashi itself COMPLETELY lacks techniques designed to repel blaster fire.
Now, why?
Makashi was invented BEFORE blasters even were.
If you know anything about Makashi users, you know that they employ the defensive techniques of Form I Shii-Cho to defend against blaster wielding enemies and then switch back to Form II to deal with them blade-to-blade.

Which brings me to another point, Makashi is only good for one-on-one dueling.
The reason Count Dooku could take more than one opponent at a time (a la Anakin&Obi-Wan) was because he might have been the most skilled Makashi user ever to employ the art.
But, you notice during his final duel even he can't keep using only blade techniques forever, and has to toss Obi-Wan aside with help of the Force.

But back to the point, Makashi is only designed for one-on-one combat.

Juyo was designed to take on multiple blade-wielding opponents at once.
Is was also designed with the most effective and straightforward killing technique for a dueling form.
Which is why Mace refers to Form IV itself as the "Deadliest Form" in the novel Shatterpoint.

Now, Mace's Vapaad is all of what I just explained Juyo is, except, its also more.

Mace tempered Juyo's physical techniques to take them to their all-time high in the area of tactical value and developed even deeper techniques that evolved to a unique mindset around the Dark side.

The mindset is what gives the Vapaad user to both and a Dark side users power.
So, the Vapaad practitioner uses his opponent as a weapon for himself and not just the darkness within him.

Makashi, while being an incredibly beautiful, deadly and ingenious form of lightsaber combat is actually rivaled by Juyo and surpassed in all its aspects by Vapaad.

The artform in which only Mace Windu has mastered.

Count Makashi
Makashi form is the best lightsaber to lightsaber, Vaapad is the best overall.

Battlemaster
Although I have to add...

Thank you darthsith19, for defending me, It was very chivalrous of you.
And I'm not trying to disagree with what your saying either, just relaying some knowledge.

Battlemaster
No, Vapaad is the best for dueling as well.

If you need to refresh your memory again, refer to what I wrote.

Read it as many times as you need to let the truth sink in...

Count Makashi
http://swg.stratics.com/content/gameplay/professions/jedi/lightsaber_combat.php

Read what it says about Makashi

The ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat

Battlemaster
Yeah, it was.

Before Vapaad .

Battlemaster
Vapaad is now the ultimate refinement.

Battlemaster
By the way...

When those articles were written Vapaad wasn't even created yet.

Vapaad has surpassed Makashi as a dueling art.

Count Makashi
No, as you can see, Vaapad already exists, it is known and Makashi is sill the best form for lightsaber fights.

Battlemaster
Where does it say "Vapaad" in that article?

Nowhere.

I remember seeing that article when it came out on the site.

Only Juyo is mentioned, and it actually rivals Makashi.

But, as has been said, Vapaad surpasses it.

Battlemaster
Any questions?

Battlemaster
Class dismissed.

Battlemaster
Mace wins by a head.

Mace Windu is the winner.

Count Makashi
The article talks about Mace Windu and we know he mastered Vaapad.

Form VII master Mace Windu fights alongside Form III practitioner Obi-Wan Kenobi in the Battle of Geonosis. This spiritually dangerous regimen cuts perilously close to the Sith intensity of focus on physical combat ability. Mace Windu is one of the only current practitioners of Form VII.

Battlemaster
That's right.

And when the article refers to Form VII, It's refering to Juyo, not Vapaad.

Sounds like you need to do some hard research and deepen your knowledge on lightsaber Forms.

Count Makashi
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/ Lightsaber_combat#The_seven_forms_of_lightsaber_co
mbat

I know its Wokipedia, but Vaapad imentioned and it still says makashi is the best for lightsaber fights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightsaber_combat

vader11
Is there a link that stated that Vapaad is the best form for dueling?

Count Makashi
It depends on the ligtsaber form, how you are going to fight, but how good you are depends on the practitioner. Sora Bulq was a Vaapad user and Dooku would probably defeat him easily.

vader11
I agree that Vapaad is the best lightsaber form, but I doubt if it is the best form for dueling...

Count Makashi
Makashi was probably only created for dueling, it only emphasis on that, while Vaapad is can be used in every situation, it wasn't created just for lightsaber fights.

vader11
Originally posted by Count Makashi
Makashi was probably only created for dueling, it only emphasis on that, while Vaapad is can be used in every situation, it wasn't created just for lightsaber fights.
Yes, I don't think Vapaad is the best in all situations. If not, Mace would be a super super genius. laughing

Gideon
Attempting to argue the superiority of Makashi over Vaapad isn't going to help the "pro-Dooku" legion in this case. On technical terms, you're right. Makashi is the undisputed best form to use in a duel. It is based on fencing and specifically for lightsaber-to-lightsaber methods of fighting. However, does this mean that someone who uses Makashi will automatically defeat someone using another form?

Hell. No.

Count Dooku is the most prolific user of Makashi that we have seen in the Star Wars universe. And yet he was unable to overcome Yoda in single combat - who uses the "inferior" form of Ataru. Count Dooku himself described Ataru as "ridiculous". On Boz Pity, Dooku was also unable to overcome Mace Windu and fled - and finally, on Invisible Hand, Dooku was unable to overcome Anakin and was killed in action.

So, if you "pro-Dooku" legion are indeed operating under the assertion that simply because Dooku has Makashi that he is automatically a step above Mace, you're incorrect.

Vaapad is proven to be "the deadliest" form. Meaning it is ultimately the more lethal style - the more dangerous. It is also the hardest to master, and corrupted Sora Bulq - who is not a Vaapad master. He is not in the realm of Windu when it comes to dueling. "Vaapad mastered him" - so says Mace. Thus, using those two in comparison is irrelevent.

On the flip side, Mace has two advantages over Dooku. His mastery of Shatterpoints and Vaapad's instinctive element of using the dark side to be a "weapon of the light". Thus, Dooku is already at a natural disadvantage when it comes to fighting Mace - and he has no defense against it or Mace's ability to detect weaknesses.

Really, people. Dooku has no advantage at all in lightsaber combat. Given that he fled from Windu on Boz Pity - despite giving his men the instructions that they should "leave the Jedi to " makes me wonder. And you can whine that "Dooku was afraid for his own life" all you want. Dooku has fled before only when he was losing (see AotC and DR).

Lastly, given that Dooku was willing to throw himself at Yoda (twice), why is it that he would fear Mace...

...Oh wait.

Unless Mace was going to beat him. Hmm. Never thought of that.

vader11
Originally posted by Gideon
Lastly, given that Dooku was willing to throw himself at Yoda (twice), why is it that he would fear Mace...

...Oh wait.

Unless Mace was going to beat him. Hmm. Never thought of that. But Yoda was also going to beat him...

Gideon
Originally posted by vader11
But Yoda was also going to beat him...

...That's why he left...

vader11
Originally posted by Gideon
...That's why he left... He knew that Yoda could beat him but he was willing to throw himself at Yoda twice? I don't think Dooku would fear Mace since he didn't seem fear Yoda. But he would left coz he didn't want to die...

Gideon
Originally posted by vader11
He knew that Yoda could beat him but he was willing to throw himself at Yoda twice? I don't think Dooku would fear Mace since he didn't seem fear Yoda. But he would left coz he didn't want to die...

He knew that Yoda was going to beat him the first time. What did he do? He distracted him and fled.

The second time, he had a helluva lot more advantages. The dark side of Vjun enhancing his strength, for one. That's why he attacked Yoda a second time.

vader11
Originally posted by Gideon
He knew that Yoda was going to beat him the first time. What did he do? He distracted him and fled.

The second time, he had a helluva lot more advantages. The dark side of Vjun enhancing his strength, for one. That's why he attacked Yoda a second time. I see. I agree that Mace is going to beat him. But he may have a chance to beat Mace if it was a pure force fight.

Gideon
Originally posted by vader11
I see. I agree that Mace is going to beat him. But he may have a chance to beat Mace if it was a pure force fight.

Of course. Dooku is the better Force user, but not by much. Sidious was the better Force user, and it didn't guarentee him a victory.

vader11
Originally posted by Gideon
Of course. Dooku is the better Force user, but not by much. Sidious was the better Force user, and it didn't guarentee him a victory. If that was a pure force fight, Sidious would beat him...

Riverollv
hey, guys, name a cool, cool lightsaber battle from the movies. It just i lost them and i wanna see them. Ive just seen the anakin vs obi wan.

vader11
Originally posted by Riverollv
hey, guys, name a cool, cool lightsaber battle from the movies. It just i lost them and i wanna see them. Ive just seen the anakin vs obi wan. Dooku vs Yoda! It probably has the fastest moves among all the duels in the movies...

Riverollv
yeah, maybe it does... or the CW cartoon battles are also pretty cool

vader11
Originally posted by Riverollv
yeah, maybe it does... or the CW cartoon battles are also pretty cool They are non-realistic...><

Riverollv
i know, but theyre cool anyway

allfg
Originally posted by DarthSith



The point is, Makashi has the edge in dueling. Advantage: Dooku. The fact that Vaapad is better against multiple enemies or redirecting blaster bolts is irrelevant in this thread.



We're not just talking about real life experience here, we're talking about all forms of experience. Dooku has decades on Mace in pure experience. From what we know, he also has more pure experience against other lightsaber duelists. Well let's see, we know that Dooku faced and killed Sifo-Dyas, Komari Vosa, he faced and defeated both Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi in AotC, he faced and stalemated Yoda also in AotC, he faced and defeated both Tholme and Sora Bulq at the same time, he again defeated Anakin Skywalker during the Clone Wars, he faced and killed Lorian Nod, he faced and defeated Assaj Ventress during the CW Cartoon, he faced both Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time during RotS, and he faced quite a few more as well that I can't remember right now. So from what we know, Count Dooku has way more experience against lightsaber users than Mace Windu, and it makes sense too, given that there are more Jedi than there are Dark Jedi for Dooku to face. The point is, Count Dooku definitely has the experience advantage, there's no point in arguing it.



Dude, there's no reason that Mace wouldn't fight to his best ability against Sidious. It was the most important duel of his life, he wasn't fatigued or injured or anything, there's nothing to suggest that he wouldn't have used his full speed.



1. Power and speed basically go hand in hand. You don't just sacrifice one for another. The more speed you apply, the more power you produce. It's that simple.

2. Defence? You're comparing apples and oranges here. Speed, technique, strength and other such factors are what makes up defence.

3. In Shatterpoint, Mace was able to maintain the precision (accuracy) to punch Kar Vastor directly on the nose in quick succession in the blink of an eye. So clearly going at Shatterpoint speeds for Mace wouldn't require him to sacrifice accuracy, so your point fails.



I didn't say that age means nothing, I said that it means little. Seeing as Mace isn't exactly the youngest or fittest force user in SW either, and seeing as he uses one of the most energy consuming forms while Dooku uses the least, I really don't see how Dooku's supposed to tire first. The only evidence that supports your stance is that Dooku is older than Mace Windu. Big deal, the force makes it so that age means little, I'd say the fact that Dooku uses the least energy consuming form speaks a lot more for Mace tiring first than Dooku's age does for Dooku tiring first.



1. Read above, most of that destroys your point.
2. Without proof, you have no point.
3. So what, anyway? Dooku was fighting against two opponents at the same time, I really don't see how Dooku tiring quicker against Anakin Skywalker (who's younger and fitter than Mace anyway) in a circumstance where he was at a disadvantage means that Dooku would tire quicker than Mace Windu.



I didn't say that Vaapad is the most energy consuming forms, but one of them. Besides Ataru, Vaapad is the most kinetic form of all.



That's simply wrong. You seem to think that defence is devoid of speed and quick movements, which is bs. With Soresu Users, their parries would always have to match the speed of their opponent's blows, so it really varies on how much energy the opponent uses. makashi, on the other hand, is partly designed on conserving energy, with the form's precise cuts and whatnot. You're simply wrong here.



Erm, did you like just skim read through what I posted? He blocked two overhead swings at the same time, one of them from Anakin Skywalker, who not only is extremely physically strong, but also possesses a robotic hand. That kind of strength is pretty immense, and it's something Mace Windu has never replicated.



Erm, maybe, just maybe, with his free hand... Did you happen to skim read through my post again? Dooku has shown the strength and general skill to duel and hold his own against extremely powerful opponents. Pulling off a force attack with his free hand really wouldn't be too hard for Dooku.



I really don't get what you're trying to say here.



Both cases are impressive actually, not many people can claim to be so adept at pulling off impromptu force attacks while dueling.



In AotC, he didn't need to. In RotS, he was trying to turn Anakin.



Firstly, I never said he could do it against just anybody, read through my posts again. All I was saying was that it's a pretty nice skill he has, and he could possibly use it successfully against Mace Windu. Personally, I consider the particular skill way more useful than Mace's overrated Shatterpoint.



Context. Mace is arguably as great a pure duelist as Yoda. In speed and skill, he's not even close.

And I addressed your second point earlier.



Again, you're comparing apples and oranges. I addressed this earlier.



Accuracy and precision has its limits, speed doesn't. Speed is simply way more important, it plays into everything (offense, defence, general movement. Accuracy and Precision only really plays into offense).



LMFAO! No, just no.



Watch again. Mace was being forced back at the start of the duel, and Sidious was quite clearly directing the entire duel. The constant grimaces on Mace's face beg to differ.



At the point you're referring to, hell yeah.



That's completely different, he was basically having a heart to heart with Yoda.



I never said he could beat anyone he taunts, don't twist my words, and you already know my issues on the Dooku/Anakin fight so no need to bring them up again.



And lots of your posts are pretty idiotic as well, it's still not an excuse.



Again, that doesn't contradict that Sidious might have been holding back.



I'll address the rest later.

darthsith19
Anakin lasted 50 seconds against Dooku. Agen beat Quinlan Vos. And where are you getting that quote? i don't see how it is relevant to anything, but Agen beat Vos, no way AOTC Anakin could do that. And yeah, AOTC Anakin is a fairly good swordsman but Agen was stated as one of the best in the order and this was an order with included Mace, Yoda, ROTS Anakin, ROTS Kenobi and Cin Drallig. AOTC Anakin is good but not one of the best in the order.

Uh, I wasn't really defending you, just trying to make my point that Mace would win. But your welcome.




Refer to Gideon's post.
Originally posted by Gideon
On the flip side, Mace has two advantages over Dooku. His mastery of Shatterpoints and Vaapad's instinctive element of using the dark side to be a "weapon of the light". Thus, Dooku is already at a natural disadvantage when it comes to fighting Mace - and he has no defense against it or Mace's ability to detect weaknesses.

Really, people. Dooku has no advantage at all in lightsaber combat. Given that he fled from Windu on Boz Pity - despite giving his men the instructions that they should "leave the Jedi to " makes me wonder. And you can whine that "Dooku was afraid for his own life" all you want. Dooku has fled before only when he was losing (see AotC and DR).

Lastly, given that Dooku was willing to throw himself at Yoda (twice), why is it that he would fear Mace...

...Oh wait.

Unless Mace was going to beat him. Hmm. Never thought of that.
Good post Gideon! smile


1. Just because Dooku has more years on Mace doesn't mean that he has more experience. At the age of 22 Anakin probably had more experience than most Jedi masters did. So age means nothing.
2. Okay, so Dooku has fought 11 people that we know of (when did he fight Anakin during the CW???). lets see about Mace: Killed 3 Dark Acolytes at Geonosis. Fought Sora Bulq and Asajj Ventress, fought General Grievous, Kar Vastor, Darth Sidious and Depa Billaba. Oh, and he sparred with Vos during the CW. So what's that? Ten, only one behind Dooku, so it's very close. One more duel isn't enough to make Dooku superior to Mace.

Again, since when did using full speed equate to using the best of your ability?

Not true. Ataru is the quickest form but uses the least amount of strength while Djem So is the strongest form (the one that uses the most power) but it is slower than most of the other forms.

If speed = defense then why doesn't Ataru have the best defense?

Then he could have sacrificed speed for defense of power, or he was being cautious.

Mace is one of the most fit Jedi, actually, he still fights and goes on missions ect. And where does it say that Vaapad is energy consuming? And at any rate Djem So is more enrgy consuming that Vaapad or Makashi and Anakin still didn't fatigue as quickly as Dooku did. So apparently age does play a large factor.

It's not my fault that swtimeline.ru isn't working and as soon as it starts working again I'll provide proof for you.

Kenobi was using offense and Anakin wasn't going all out because Kenobi was in the way. So it's not that good of a point.

Soresu, however, uses absolutely NO power what-so-ever, which is why is is the least energy consuming. All Soresu users have to do is move their saber quickly and precisely. In addition to this, Makashi users have to also use some power, not a lot, but some.

And why would a robotic hand help in a saber duel? And Dooku didn't hold them there for very long, it's impressive but not something that mace couldn't do.

If it wouldn't be to hard, then why didn't he use the Force against:
Yoda (the first time they fought)
Yoda (the second time)
Mace (when they fought the first time)
Anakin (the first time)
Anakin (the second time)

The only logical reason would be that he couldn't.

That Mace could have done it, too.

Taking out ROTS Kenobi w/ the Force when using the Dark Side is something that mace could do, too, you know that he could.

if he could have taken out AOTC Anakin faster then why didn't he? In ROTS he was trying to kill him, btw, not turn him.

Speed doesn't matter. All it says is that they are on par, which means overall.

Since when did forced back equate to losing? In AOTC Anakin was pushing Dooku back and in ROTS Kenobi was pushing Anakin back.

Sorry, the bell's about to ring, I'll try to get to the rest later. sad

kamikz
I thought the "on par" text from star wars.com was only about their position on the council, as they AFTER saying that, go on to talk where Mace combat abilities lie....

Battlemaster
Wow, I leave and some idiots leave some posts...

No guys, Vapaad is the best for dueling.

Its so overly obvious disagreeing with it just makes you embarrass yourselves.

Vapaad is a more finely tempered Form and has been stated to have more technical advantages than Makashi, even in a sword fight.

So duh, Vapaad does surpass Makashi in every aspect.

Like I said before, read it over and over again until you slowly realize it.

allfg
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Vapaad is a more finely tempered Form and has been stated to have more technical advantages than Makashi, even in a sword fight.


I take it this is your proof, right? May I ask for your source?

Darth Sexy
Source that Vaapad is the deadliest lightsaber form and turns the darkside into a servant of the light? Good god Noobaris, your dumbass still argues against facts.

vader11
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Source that Vaapad is the deadliest lightsaber form and turns the darkside into a servant of the light? Good god Noobaris, your dumbass still argues against facts. Does that mean Vapaad is the best dueling form??

Darth Sexy
No, in terms of lightsaber to lightsaber, Makashi is the best form. Vaapad is the deadliest form seeing as it's nearly impossible to master and how it turns the darkside against its own user.

allfg
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Source that Vaapad is the deadliest lightsaber form and turns the darkside into a servant of the light? Good god Noobaris, your dumbass still argues against facts.

Misconstruing things as usual I see Sexy...

I was asking for a source that says Vaapad is technically greater for dueling. Learn 2 read.

allfg
That's right, and what?

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by allfg
I take it this is your proof, right? May I ask for your source?

That is what you said dumbshit, learn to read before embarassing yourself.

vader11
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, in terms of lightsaber to lightsaber, Makashi is the best form. Vaapad is the deadliest form seeing as it's nearly impossible to master and how it turns the darkside against its own user.
Yeah, but someone said Vapaad is the best dueling form...

allfg
Yay for conveniently forgetting what I was quoting:



(What I bolded is what I directly quoted)

This was my reply.



Nothing about Vaapad being the deadliest lightsaber form and turning the darkside into a servant of the light. As I said, misconstruing things as usual...

Darth Sexy
you are definitely an idiot, getting wtfpwned as usual.

darthsith19
Continued from before (sorry it took so long, had a Track Meet after school and now I am finally home).

What about when he said "You have power, you have hate. But you don't use them!" was he toying then? And I doubt that he was toying before, either.

Uh huh. How is that different at all, it was pretty much the same thing that he did to Mace on Boz Pity.

Are you one of those guys who won't admit that Anakin beat Dooku fair and square? Even though all evidence points to it? I'm truely disappointed in you, allfq.

If Palpatine was holding back then GL wouldn't have said what he did.



To Battlemaster: Makashi is the best dueling form, there's no arguing what Star wars Insider says, if it says that Makashi is the best that it is. And Vaapad is called form 7 and it's what they were referring to in the article, their description of the form is exactly what Vaapad is.



To Darth Sexy: You are being a dumbass and are just being mean to allfq because you don't like him. What allfq said about Makashi and Vaapad is in no way what-so-ever stupid, read again, he never stated that Vaapad wasn't the best, he just said that is wasn't the best for dueling. If all you're going to do is bash him for fun then just leave this thread.

darthsith19
Now that swtimeline.rr is working again, here is your guote, allfq:
The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-
Skywalker was getting stronger.
Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.
He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

So age does play a factor, and Dooku did get tired after only a minute, two at the most, of dueling, true it was 2 on 1 but still, Maul took on 2 opponents at once when not at full strength and didn't even seem to get tired, even after a few minutes of dueling.

allfg
Hey Darth Sith I'm probably not going to be able to get you a reply within the next few days (major biology project), and we both made some valid points, so agree to disagree?

S_W_LeGenD
Regarding this fight:

I think that Mace Windu will win because he has an edge over his opponent because of his mastery of Vaapad Form and he can see a shatterpoint of Dooku.

Dooku will be in serious trouble because he is a Dark Sider and Vaapad works well against Dark siders because it takes the hatred, anger and rage of Dark Siders and turn these in to a weapon against Dark Siders by reflecting these back at them.

Regarding the Light Saber Combat Styles:

It is true that Makashi is the best Saber Combat Form for Light Saber-to-Light Saber fighting.

But Vaapad is more deadly because it employs more kinetic energy and it is the most effective Saber Combat Form against Dark Siders.

Mace indeed has an edge in this fight.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by allfg
Hey Darth Sith I'm probably not going to be able to get you a reply within the next few days (major biology project), and we both made some valid points, so agree to disagree?
He has made some valid points, and as usual you haven't. Stuff it tool.

darthsith19
I'm willing to wait, waiting doesn't matter to me, if you don't have time to reply for one or two weeks even that's fine with me.

Count Makashi
Originally posted by darthsith19
Now that swtimeline.rr is working again, here is your guote, allfq:
The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-
Skywalker was getting stronger.
Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.
He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

So age does play a factor, and Dooku did get tired after only a minute, two at the most, of dueling, true it was 2 on 1 but still, Maul took on 2 opponents at once when not at full strength and didn't even seem to get tired, even after a few minutes of dueling.

I think that main reason Dooku got tired was because of Anakin, if he was fighting anyone else he wouldn't get tired so quickly and remember he fought Tholme, who is younger then Dooku and wasn't exhausted at all and when he fought Yoda on Geonosis, Yoda seamed to be more tired and you forgot to add, that during the fight with Anakin he used Force to completely revitalize himself .

He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.

Now i am not saying that age doesn't mater at all, but not that much also. like Yoda said-Age maters not.

darthsith19
Originally posted by Count Makashi
I think that main reason Dooku got tired was because of Anakin, if he was fighting anyone else he wouldn't get tired so quickly and remember he fought Tholme, who is younger then Dooku and wasn't exhausted at all and when he fought Yoda on Geonosis, Yoda seamed to be more tired and you forgot to add, that during the fight with Anakin he used Force to completely revitalize himself .

He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.

Now i am not saying that age doesn't mater at all, but not that much also. like Yoda said-Age maters not.
Why would he tire more quickly against Anakin than anybody else? He didn't seem exhausted after fighting Tholme because he's so much stronger than Tholme, obviously if, say, Yoda fights a Youngling Yoda will win without getting tired even though he's about a hundred times older. Yoda did seem more tired on Geonosis, which makes sense, because he's older and their pretty close to each other in strength. Yes, Dooku did use the Force to revitalize himself to an extent during his fight with Anakin but if you read what I posted you'll see that even with the Force to power him he was getting tired.
Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony.

And I'd sure like to hear when/where Yoda said "age-matters not."

Count Makashi
Originally posted by darthsith19
Why would he tire more quickly against Anakin than anybody else? He didn't seem exhausted after fighting Tholme because he's so much stronger than Tholme, obviously if, say, Yoda fights a Youngling Yoda will win without getting tired even though he's about a hundred times older. Yoda did seem more tired on Geonosis, which makes sense, because he's older and their pretty close to each other in strength. Yes, Dooku did use the Force to revitalize himself to an extent during his fight with Anakin but if you read what I posted you'll see that even with the Force to power him he was getting tired.
Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony.

And I'd sure like to hear when/where Yoda said "age-matters not."

O shit, he said size matters not, my mistake, i apologize.
And Dooku and Mace are also close in strength too and Yoda is old for his species just like Dooku is old for his(Qui-Gon was already affected by age and he was younger then Dooku) and in the fight Obi-Wan was also getting tired and he was young in his 30s. And Dooku tired so quickly because Anakin is so strong in the Force, Dooku said he is a natural, like rest use the Force, but Anakin is always in the Force.
Age is important, it does count as a factor, but not by much in these case.

darthsith19
Originally posted by Count Makashi
O shit, he said size matters not, my mistake, i apologize.
And Dooku and Mace are also close in strength too and Yoda is old for his species just like Dooku is old for his(Qui-Gon was already affected by age and he was younger then Dooku) and in the fight Obi-Wan was also getting tired and he was young in his 30s. And Dooku tired so quickly because Anakin is so strong in the Force, Dooku said he is a natural, like rest use the Force, but Anakin is always in the Force.
Age is important, it does count as a factor, but not by much in these case.
I don't get why you're mentioning these people's ages, are you trying to say that Mace will get tired, too? If you are, then I agree, but since Dooku is 30 years older he'll likely get tired more quickly and then lose. And Mace is strong in the Force, too. I don't see how Anakin would tire Dooku out any faster than Mace would. And age does matter some, but so does dueling ability, which Mace has over Dooku (he ebat a level 9 swordsman - Sidious - Dooku is a level 8 swordsman). Experience is pretty even. The Force might go to Dooku but I don't see any Force Power than Dooku could use that would stop Mace. And really I don't see anything going for Dooku here, especially as he ran from their first battle after getting so excited over the concept of killing Jedi.

vader11
Originally posted by darthsith19
I don't get why you're mentioning these people's ages, are you trying to say that Mace will get tired, too? If you are, then I agree, but since Dooku is 30 years older he'll likely get tired more quickly and then lose. And Mace is strong in the Force, too. I don't see how Anakin would tire Dooku out any faster than Mace would. And age does matter some, but so does dueling ability, which Mace has over Dooku (he ebat a level 9 swordsman - Sidious - Dooku is a level 8 swordsman). Experience is pretty even. The Force might go to Dooku but I don't see any Force Power than Dooku could use that would stop Mace. And really I don't see anything going for Dooku here, especially as he ran from their first battle after getting so excited over the concept of killing Jedi. Yes, I don't see Dooku would beat Windu, after seeing Anakin vs Dooku in ROTS.

Rampant ox
Originally posted by vader11
Yes, I don't see Dooku would beat Windu, after seeing Anakin vs Dooku in ROTS.

Thats a piss poor argument. Put Mace (or anybody) into Dooku's position in ROTS and they would have suffered the same fate. Anakin is near unstoppable when he is in the 'zone' like when fighting the Count.

Riverollv
What d you guys mean when you say "the zone" ?

vader11
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Thats a piss poor argument. Put Mace (or anybody) into Dooku's position in ROTS and they would have suffered the same fate. Anakin is near unstoppable when he is in the 'zone' like when fighting the Count. Many people have already stated why Mace would win, and those arguments are strong enough. Why should I repeat their words? I am just saying who I think would win. Seeing how fast Dooku lose, Mace would probably win.

Rampant ox
Originally posted by vader11
Many people have already stated why Mace would win, and those arguments are strong enough. Why should I repeat their words? I am just saying who I think would win. Seeing how fast Dooku lose, Mace would probably win.

Meh, you make it seem like you are basing Mace's victory off Dooku's loss to Anakin. That would be a poor argument becaue Mace would also lose if he was faced against Anakin.

Originally posted by Riverollv
What d you guys mean when you say "the zone" ?

The state of mind Anakin was in when he fought Dooku in ROTS.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Meh, you make it seem like you are basing Mace's victory off Dooku's loss to Anakin. That would be a poor argument becaue Mace would also lose if he was faced against Anakin.

Very unlikely, considering Anakin's greatest weapon is his anger, while Vaapad makes it his greatest enemy. And we're not basing Mace's victory due to Dooku's loss, we're basing Mace's victory on Mace's victory over Sidious. Sidious is above Anakin in all aspects of saber dueling and force abilities, and he got monkey stomped. Anakin, who hasn't reached that level yet, will be much less of a challenge for Mace..

vader11
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Meh, you make it seem like you are basing Mace's victory off Dooku's loss to Anakin. That would be a poor argument becaue Mace would also lose if he was faced against Anakin.

Any proves that Mace would lose to Anakin? Even if he loses, Mace would still beat Dooku. You think Dooku would win simply because you are his fan.

vader11
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Very unlikely, considering Anakin's greatest weapon is his anger, while Vaapad makes it his greatest enemy. And we're not basing Mace's victory due to Dooku's loss, we're basing Mace's victory on Mace's victory over Sidious. Sidious is above Anakin in all aspects of saber dueling and force abilities, and he got monkey stomped. Anakin, who hasn't reached that level yet, will be much less of a challenge for Mace.. Yes, and I don't see Anakin is better than Sidious.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by darthsith19




To Battlemaster: Makashi is the best dueling form, there's no arguing what Star wars Insider says, if it says that Makashi is the best that it is. And Vaapad is called form 7 and it's what they were referring to in the article, their description of the form is exactly what Vaapad is.





When that article was written Vapaad had just barely been invented and had hardly ever been seen by anyone else besides editors.
It was still relatively unknown among most Star Wars fans.

Regarding Vapaad, the article is basically out-of-date.
And Vapaad is not called form 7.
Form 7 is in reference to Juyo .
Vapaad is the vareint of Juyo created by Mace Windu and is not conventional Form 7 (Juyo) itself.

In light of all the new developments that we've seen with Vapaad and the information I just gleaned with it in above posts, it is an obvious fact that Vapaad is the consummate dueling Form, due not only to the fact that is has move-sets more tempered for killing, but the fact that you can use it to fight multiple blade-weilding enemies at once versus Makashi where you can really only fight one.
Vapaad is not called the "Deadliest Form" because it is the most difficult to master and can bring you to the Dark side.
It is called the "Dealiest Form" because that is just exactly what it is.
It is the best From for All-around (That means everything) killing.

My notes have been garnered off all of the same other sites that people have looked at including Wookiepedia.
And If you still have trouble understanding what I mean, just refer to my earlier posts.

I had a gymnastics Meet to attend to all weekend so excuse me If I couldn't have posted sooner.

LORDSIDIOUS01
Master Windu takes Dooku out.

Battlemaster
Pretty much.

vader11
It seems only Dooku's fans would think Dooku would win...

kiddo44
Close, but Dooku has shown greater force powers, and Vaapad is not going to carry Mace against somebody like Dooku, The Count would take it.

vader11
Originally posted by kiddo44
Close, but Dooku has shown greater force powers, and Vaapad is not going to carry Mace against somebody like Dooku, The Count would take it. Didn't Sidious has shown greater force powers than Dooku? But Mace beat Sidious. Also, Mace is equipped with a mastery of Shatterpoint and Vaapad is the deadliest lightsaber form with an added bonus against dark siders. I say Mace takes this.

Gideon
Mace wins, for the gazillion reasons already detailed by myself and others, and the fact that Dooku fled from him on Boz Pity after leaving implicit instructions to "leave the Jedi to him".

kiddo44
Originally posted by vader11
Didn't Sidious has shown greater force powers than Dooku? But Mace beat Sidious. Also, Mace is equipped with a mastery of Shatterpoint and Vaapad is the deadliest lightsaber form with an added bonus against dark siders. I say Mace takes this.

yes, but Sidious was not using his force powers when he fought Mace, he had to wait on Anakin, Mace is a level 9 swordsman but has not shown the force powers of Dooku.

vader11
Originally posted by kiddo44
yes, but Sidious was not using his force powers when he fought Mace, he had to wait on Anakin, Mace is a level 9 swordsman but has not shown the force powers of Dooku. As you say Mace is a level 9 swordman, then Dooku should be level 8. Mace beat Sidious, who is level 9. And there's is no proof that Sidious is waiting for Anakin. GL said that Mace overpowered Sidious fairly.

kiddo44
Originally posted by vader11
As you say Mace is a level 9 swordman, then Dooku should be level 8. Mace beat Sidious, who is level 9. And there's is no proof that Sidious is waiting for Anakin. GL said that Mace overpowered Sidious fairly.

Dooku's level is never stated, Kenobi was an 8, i don't think those 2 are equal. And i know Lucas said he overpowered him in the swordfight, but Sidious when fighting Yoda was much more powerful, and he was faking that whole thing when he was on the ground, Lucas has said this, and Ian said that that face, sidious, was his actual face, and the lighting did not do that, he faked the whole thing. I don't doubt Mace is equal with him in sabers, but not the force.
Lucas said, "Yoda and Mace can Hang with Sidious", not beat him.

vader11
Originally posted by kiddo44
Dooku's level is never stated, Kenobi was an 8, i don't think those 2 are equal. And i know Lucas said he overpowered him in the swordfight, but Sidious when fighting Yoda was much more powerful, and he was faking that whole thing when he was on the ground, Lucas has said this, and Ian said that that face, sidious, was his actual face, and the lighting did not do that, he faked the whole thing. I don't doubt Mace is equal with him in sabers, but not the force.
Lucas said, "Yoda and Mace can Hang with Sidious", not beat him. It was said the only level 9 people are Yoda, Mace, Anakin, & Sidious, no mention of Dooku. So, Dooku is probably an 8. Also, Sidious wasn't faking until he uses lightning & said he was so weak. And Mace had the advantages of shatterpoint and Vapaad that Yoda was without, so Mace fight Sidious better than Yoda did. & GL said it has to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the emperor, no mention of Dooku.

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