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In the jungle. They notice Simba passing by.

Which team wins.

I'm going to sleep, as I'm not here at the moment.

i say Kar Vastor takes this one

IMO Mace = Dooku. Mace > Kar. Dooku > Kar.

Besides, if Simba witness a battle in his land, he would call out his kingdom to kill em all.

Dooku wins.

In pure battle, Kar could very well take it due to the enviroment (otherwise, he would lose), but I'd still see Dooku's much, much, much superior offensive force powers kill him....

Originally posted by Black Dalek
IMO Mace = Dooku. Mace > Kar. Dooku > Kar.

Besides, if Simba witness a battle in his land, he would call out his kingdom to kill em all.
Except Mace only beat Kar after spending several days finding his Shatterpoint. Dooku won't have the time let alone the ability to find Kar's Shatterpoint.


I dunno, during Kar and Mace's first fight Kar pwnd Mace with the Force. I'd say his Force Powers are ahead of Dooku's.


So Kar wins but it's close.

Kar pwned Mace with the force? Whoa, he did? When? I thought he wasn't even trained as a force user.
Anyway, Mace doesn't use lightning nor as offensive force powers as Dooku does, Kar is not gonna parry a strike of force lightning that took out both Anakin and Assaj almost instantly.... (It will go around his shields into his hands most likely, and I doubt he has the technique to parry it, not even Luke by ROTJ had that)

Uggggggggh Dooku

Originally posted by LORDSIDIOUS01
Uggggggggh Dooku

Even you agreed that Dooku wins, now thats an achievement.

Originally posted by Black Dalek
IMO Mace = Dooku. Mace > Kar. Dooku > Kar.

Besides, if Simba witness a battle in his land, he would call out his kingdom to kill em all.

No.

Mace>Dooku. Kar>Mace (In direct blade-to-blade combat) Kar>Dooku.

And Simba wouldn't need his army, grown up Simba could waste Dooku and probally stalemate Kar...

Kar wins.

Originally posted by kamikz
Kar pwned Mace with the force? Whoa, he did? When? I thought he wasn't even trained as a force user.
Anyway, Mace doesn't use lightning nor as offensive force powers as Dooku does, Kar is not gonna parry a strike of force lightning that took out both Anakin and Assaj almost instantly.... (It will go around his shields into his hands most likely, and I doubt he has the technique to parry it, not even Luke by ROTJ had that)
Kar used the Force on Mace at the end of their first fight in the jungle. I'll provide you with a quote once swtimeline.ru starts working again.

Thinking that Kun's shields can't block lightning is total speculation. Seeing as they are shields, it's actually more likely than not that they can block lightning. And Mace punched Kar in the face repeatedly at such a fast speed that his hands were invisivble and Kar didn't budge, I've got to think that he could block Dooku's lightning or at least have a good chance at blocking it.

Dooku's pwned.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Kar used the Force on Mace at the end of their first fight in the jungle. I'll provide you with a quote once swtimeline.ru starts working again.

Thinking that Kun's shields can't block lightning is total speculation. Seeing as they are shields, it's actually more likely than not that they can block lightning. And Mace punched Kar in the face repeatedly at such a fast speed that his hands were invisivble and Kar didn't budge, I've got to think that he could block Dooku's lightning or at least have a good chance at blocking it.


Ok, just wondered, had no memory of it.


Well, if you hold a shield, and the shield gets electrocuted, you should get lightning through your hand into your body as well right?
Block it with his skin own body maybe, but not force wise like Yoda did. And that will mean Dooku can lift and toss Kar around with the lightning as well...

Originally posted by kamikz
Ok, just wondered, had no memory of it.


Well, if you hold a shield, and the shield gets electrocuted, you should get lightning through your hand into your body as well right?
Block it with his skin own body maybe, but not force wise like Yoda did. And that will mean Dooku can lift and toss Kar around with the lightning as well...
Well, if you hold a sword and it gets electrocuted, you should get lightning through your hand into your body as well, right? But if you're holding an energy sword, like a lightsaber, you can block it, and if you're holding an energy shield, like a Vbro Shield, I suspect that it would block it, too.

As far as blocking it with the Force, what if he just blocked all Dooku's Force Attacks, telekinesis, too, or just tossed Dooku around with the Force before Dooku could do anything. swtimeline.ru isn't working for me right now so I can't provide text for Kar using the Force. Just wondering, does swtimeline work for you?

Is it an energy shield? Oh, thought it was just an improved normal shield....


Well, is there any proof that his force attacks are above that of Dooku's? Dooku is a sith lord, and one of the better ones in history. His force powers are like third in the pt, after Yoda and Sidious, and he is very much more offensive than Mace. (Besides, Mace was wounded as hell when he fought Kar at the end. I mean, he got pwnd by Depa, doubt he would get that otherwise...)

This is hard. Dooku could lose actually. But I give a slight majority to Dooku.

Originally posted by kamikz
Is it an energy shield? Oh, thought it was just an improved normal shield....


Well, is there any proof that his force attacks are above that of Dooku's? Dooku is a sith lord, and one of the better ones in history. His force powers are like third in the pt, after Yoda and Sidious, and he is very much more offensive than Mace. (Besides, Mace was wounded as hell when he fought Kar at the end. I mean, he got pwnd by Depa, doubt he would get that otherwise...)
This si what Wookieepedia says about Kar's shields:
The shields were immune to the metal-eating jungle rot of Haruun Kal and also, as superconductors, could not be cut by a lightsaber; however, if a lightsaber was held to the metal long enough, it would melt. They also could deflect blaster and slugthrower bolts.

They were equipped with simple electronics that allowed them to vibrate ultrasonically, for additional cutting power.

Kar beat Mace pretty bad with the Force, worse than I think Dooku could beat him. And his Force Powers might be third (from the films, anyways) but he's still quite a bit below Yoda and Sidious and I doubt he's to far above Mace and ROTS Anakin, if he's above them at all (he probably is, though).

And Mace didn't get pwnd by Depa, on the contrary, he wasn't trying to hurt her at all and he still won (because she collapsed from exhaustion/stress).

Uh, she stabbed herself didn't she?


And Mace had broken bones, cut, scars, deep wounds, fautige, etc. He was in no way in top shape, far from it actually.

Originally posted by kamikz
Uh, she stabbed herself didn't she?


And Mace had broken bones, cut, scars, deep wounds, fautige, etc. He was in no way in top shape, far from it actually.

Mace says that it would be unlikely for him to defeat Kar even if he was in his prime condition.

Anyway, Kar was supposedly stronger (physically) than Mace as well as faster, possibly from help as his being master of the jungle. Dooku's (as was seen in Episode III) weakness was an opponent using brute strength. I'm a big Dooku fan, but I'd say Kar takes this one.

Yeah, Mace also says Depa is better than him, which no one on KMC seems to bother about. He also states that Yoda is superior to him as a swordsman, yet most seem to put them as equals....


No, Mace was faster. They said that if Kar moved as lightning, Mace was invisible.
And although Kar does have the strenght advantage, Dooku is still far more experienced, he possibly has more skill seeing how he mastered the perfect form for duelling, and he should have the force advantage. Not saying Dooku will win in such a confrontation, but really, just having a factor of strenght, speed and skill doesn't make it comparable to Anakin, we have all put Anakin in near first place in the star wars saga at that state....

Originally posted by kamikz
Yeah, Mace also says Depa is better than him, which no one on KMC seems to bother about. He also states that Yoda is superior to him as a swordsman, yet most seem to put them as equals....


No, Mace was faster. They said that if Kar moved as lightning, Mace was invisible.
And although Kar does have the strenght advantage, Dooku is still far more experienced, he possibly has more skill seeing how he mastered the perfect form for duelling, and he should have the force advantage. Not saying Dooku will win in such a confrontation, but really, just having a factor of strenght, speed and skill doesn't make it comparable to Anakin, we have all put Anakin in near first place in the star wars saga at that state....
Your right, good point, Mace is very nobel, in one ROTS novel (or script?) he seems to think that Kenobi is a betetr swordsman than he is, he thinks that Depa is ahead of him, which is clearly wrong. About the Yoda thing, I can't remember when he says that but in that case it could have just been a simple mistake because their so close anyways. So he could have been being humble about Kar, but then, Kar did beat him the first time they fought and Mace was only able to beat him the second time because he had discovered Kar's Shatterpoint.

As far as experience goes, I'd say Kar has this easily. He was the leader of the Upland Liberation Front, the Korunnai military leader during the Summetime War, when Kar was 14 years old his family was kileld by jups and only he survived. Kar Vastor was abandoned in the jungle without weapons, without grassers, without akks or people, food or supplies of any kind. For most beings, it was a death sentence. However Kar alone survived for more than a standard year. But as far as experience goes, the Summertime War lasted 31 years, and Kar fought for a lot of it. What did Dooku do that gives him more experience than non-stop fighting for 20 some years? As we see during the Clone Wars, Jedi gain FAR more experience during the 3 year war than they do just going on missions - Anakin gained as much in 3 years as he did in ten years doing missions. Kenobi gained more in 3 years than he did in 10, I'd guess he probably gained as much as he had in the 20 years before that, so wars give you a LOT more experience that missions do.

I also promise to find the quote of Kar using the Force on Mace today, i went to swtimeline.ru and am trying to find it but you know, it's a 300 something page long book and I have no idea where in the book it was, that book is so confusing to find stuff in (but it is a great book). I promise to post it here by the end of today, though (hopefully in the next hour).

I guess Kar has alot of fighting experience, but I don't believe that any of that kind of experience is against the calibur of the opponent Dooku has faced. He has undoubtedly sparred thousands upon thousands of times with jedi from all over the temple (as a battle master) and with the top dogs like Yoda, who trained him, and his friend, Mace Windu. Dooku also joined in the elimination of the mandalorians, and fought alot of people during the Clone Wars. I think that evens out his battle experience, because he has fought more capable opponents (and trained with), he has taught many people (which also helps more in learning yourself) and has lived about 30-40 years longer am I right?


I believe you about the "beat Mace with the force", but I do believe that Mace wounds was a serious part of that as well. I don't see a fautiged and wounded jedi stand up to someone with a potential almost matching Yoda's, but relativley untrained. As Ki-Adi Mundi said to the council after they faced Grievous, even when they were only tired from having fought a battle, they lost. (They still would've, but not as bad)

True, but real life battles likely help more than sparring matches and Kenobi probably sparred a lot with Anakin, Qui-Gon, Cin Drallig and maybe even Windu before AOTC yet he gained a LOT more from the 3 years of the Clone Wars than he did during the entire 10 years between TPM and AOTC.

I'm not to familiar with the elimination of the mandalorins, I can tell that it was the war where the mandalorians were all destroyed (except Jango Fett) but how long did the war last? As for the Clone Wars, he fought a few people, like Tholme, Sora, Mace and Yoda but that won't give you anywhere near the same experience as fighting in a war for twenty years, the dangers of Haruun Kal are so high, and Kar survived in the jungle, alone, without weapons or food, for over a year, something that no one has ever done before, and Kar was only 14 years old! Just surviving that year has to have gained him more experience that a few dueling during the Clone Wars.

Yeah but fighting armies/lots of warriors who are a lot weaker than you are seems to help a lot more than fightign a few worthy opponents (see my above post about Kenobi gaining so much more during the CW that before it). As far as Kar's age, he was born in 47 bby so he's 28 years old when Dooku is 83. So I guess he has probably only been fighting in the Summertime Wars for 14 years as I don't think he fought before his parents died (could be wrong, though, just a guess). But still seeing how much 3 years of the Clone wars could increase a Jedi's powers imagine 14 years of an even more brutal war. Also, at the age of 22 Anakin already had more experience than most of the Jedi in the Order, so just becauser Kar's younger than Dooku doesn't mean that he has less experience.

I can't seem to find the part of the novel where Mace and kar fight, even, I may try again but it really seems like part of the book's missing from swtimeline.ru (not trying to make an excuse here). As for Kar using the Force on Mace, that was an the end of their unarmed fight, I don't think that Mace was that injured until kar started tossing him into trees and rocks (I think he did something like that, I don't blame you if you don't believe me, though, as I've failed to provide you with any proof). You've read Shatterpoint, right? Well, when Mace and Kar fight, you know, mace is punching Kar in the nose at a speed so fast that Mace's hands are Invisible and Kar is using the Force to recover from the blows faster than they land, that's very, very impressive. Then he punches Mace a little and then uses the Force (I believe to toss him into trees and such) which gives Mace most of his injuries.

Originally posted by darthsith19
True, but real life battles likely help more than sparring matches and Kenobi probably sparred a lot with Anakin, Qui-Gon, Cin Drallig and maybe even Windu before AOTC yet he gained a LOT more from the 3 years of the Clone Wars than he did during the entire 10 years between TPM and AOTC.

I'm not to familiar with the elimination of the mandalorins, I can tell that it was the war where the mandalorians were all destroyed (except Jango Fett) but how long did the war last? As for the Clone Wars, he fought a few people, like Tholme, Sora, Mace and Yoda but that won't give you anywhere near the same experience as fighting in a war for twenty years, the dangers of Haruun Kal are so high, and Kar survived in the jungle, alone, without weapons or food, for over a year, something that no one has ever done before, and Kar was only 14 years old! Just surviving that year has to have gained him more experience that a few dueling during the Clone Wars.

Yeah but fighting armies/lots of warriors who are a lot weaker than you are seems to help a lot more than fightign a few worthy opponents (see my above post about Kenobi gaining so much more during the CW that before it). As far as Kar's age, he was born in 47 bby so he's 28 years old when Dooku is 83. So I guess he has probably only been fighting in the Summertime Wars for 14 years as I don't think he fought before his parents died (could be wrong, though, just a guess). But still seeing how much 3 years of the Clone wars could increase a Jedi's powers imagine 14 years of an even more brutal war. Also, at the age of 22 Anakin already had more experience than most of the Jedi in the Order, so just becauser Kar's younger than Dooku doesn't mean that he has less experience.

I can't seem to find the part of the novel where Mace and kar fight, even, I may try again but it really seems like part of the book's missing from swtimeline.ru (not trying to make an excuse here). As for Kar using the Force on Mace, that was an the end of their unarmed fight, I don't think that Mace was that injured until kar started tossing him into trees and rocks (I think he did something like that, I don't blame you if you don't believe me, though, as I've failed to provide you with any proof). You've read Shatterpoint, right? Well, when Mace and Kar fight, you know, mace is punching Kar in the nose at a speed so fast that Mace's hands are Invisible and Kar is using the Force to recover from the blows faster than they land, that's very, very impressive. Then he punches Mace a little and then uses the Force (I believe to toss him into trees and such) which gives Mace most of his injuries.



Well, that depends. Fighting more opponents of a lesser calibur could be better, but I don't know if that works for every case. I can see why Obi would increase, his style is purley about defence and blaster parrying, which is likely 80% procent of what he had to do during those battles in the clone wars. In those 10 years, he also taught Anakin alot, as well as he just recently changed forms, so I can really see why just he would improve so much.


Well, I think the mandalorian wars that Dooku entered with jedi was more of a clean up, but it was still a battle against probably the best non-force users there is at that time, and they pwnd in that battle.
Although Kar definetly has had more battles in his time, Dooku has had alot more sparring, as well as professional training....


Since when did Anakin have more experience? I only thought he was more powerful, and had alot of grander feats under his name because of that...



Well, Kar is damn powerful and all, but Mace had already by that time been in the jungle for a long while, fighting many things, from thugs to gun ships, beasts etc. Not to talk about Kar having a hell of a terrain advantage, which he doesn't now.
Also, I have read it a long time ago, so I don't remember. But did Kar do more than toss him? Cause Sora pushed Mace on his ass once, but I doubt he is more capable in the force than Mace is.

True, but Anakin did seem to imrpove over those 3 years almost as much as he did during the 10 years before that. I dunno, I guess experience could be close maybe.

Agreed, but then again, so does Mace, and he only beat Kar because he found Kar's shatterpoint. And ROTS Grievous has more experience than pretty much anybody but he lost to Kenobi and Mace.


Well, he actually fought some strong opponents, a LOT of Dark Jedi (more than you probably realize because he kills five in a video game that isn't very well known (because it's only for GBA) called Star wars: The New Droid Army) and I guess a lot of Jedi fought in the Clone Wars but I guess Anakin was the hero so he probably fought during some of the most big and gruesome battles. Maybe more experience than most of the masters was pushing it, but more experience than most Jedi of his age for sure, and probably more fighting experience than a lot of the masters. I guess I'm kind of speculating.


True, but Kar was probably fighting just as much as Mace was and Mace wasn't injured or anything before fighting Kar, just a little fatigued maybe but no more than Kar would be.

He doesn't? I thought when zephiel7 said "In the Jungle" he meant "The Haruun Kal Jungle". Maybe I'm mistaken, and if it isn't in the Haruun Kal jungle then I concede and Dooku wins. But I believe that it's the Haruun Kal jungle.

Can't remember and can't find that part in the novel but at any rate Kar didn't just push him on his ass and then lose, he tossed him around, broke a few ribs, and won. And when did Sora Force Push Mace?

Originally posted by darthsith19
True, but Anakin did seem to imrpove over those 3 years almost as much as he did during the 10 years before that. I dunno, I guess experience could be close maybe.

Agreed, but then again, so does Mace, and he only beat Kar because he found Kar's shatterpoint. And ROTS Grievous has more experience than pretty much anybody but he lost to Kenobi and Mace.


Well, he actually fought some strong opponents, a LOT of Dark Jedi (more than you probably realize because he kills five in a video game that isn't very well known (because it's only for GBA) called Star wars: The New Droid Army) and I guess a lot of Jedi fought in the Clone Wars but I guess Anakin was the hero so he probably fought during some of the most big and gruesome battles. Maybe more experience than most of the masters was pushing it, but more experience than most Jedi of his age for sure, and probably more fighting experience than a lot of the masters. I guess I'm kind of speculating.


True, but Kar was probably fighting just as much as Mace was and Mace wasn't injured or anything before fighting Kar, just a little fatigued maybe but no more than Kar would be.

He doesn't? I thought when zephiel7 said "In the Jungle" he meant "The Haruun Kal Jungle". Maybe I'm mistaken, and if it isn't in the Haruun Kal jungle then I concede and Dooku wins. But I believe that it's the Haruun Kal jungle.

Can't remember and can't find that part in the novel but at any rate Kar didn't just push him on his ass and then lose, he tossed him around, broke a few ribs, and won. And when did Sora Force Push Mace?



Hmmm, well I guess we could agree that Kar and Dooku are pretty similair in experience.
Dooku's age + fighting with jedi + dark jedi.
Kar fighting for almost 20 years non stop.



Oh, I just thought it was a random jungle. So that's why everyone thinks he's going to beat Dooku?


Hmm, well it could be useful if I got to see that, but I really don't have to.
Sora pushed Mace in "Jedi, Mace Windu".

I am not reading all of that!

All of who in the what now?

All of the who in which you said what now with Darthsith19 where.

Originally posted by kamikz
Hmmm, well I guess we could agree that Kar and Dooku are pretty similair in experience.
Dooku's age + fighting with jedi + dark jedi.
Kar fighting for almost 20 years non stop.



Oh, I just thought it was a random jungle. So that's why everyone thinks he's going to beat Dooku?


Hmm, well it could be useful if I got to see that, but I really don't have to.
Sora pushed Mace in "Jedi, Mace Windu".
I think that's why people think he can beat Dooku, as if it wasn't on Haruun Kal we'd have no idea how strong Kar would be.

Oh ok, then I can agree. I thought it was in some random jungle.

Originally posted by darthsith19
This si what Wookieepedia says about Kar's shields:
The shields were immune to the metal-eating jungle rot of Haruun Kal and also, as superconductors, could not be cut by a lightsaber; however, if a lightsaber was held to the metal long enough, it would melt. They also could deflect blaster and slugthrower bolts.

They were equipped with simple electronics that allowed them to vibrate ultrasonically, for additional cutting power.

If a lightsaber being constantly held against such a shield would melt them, what do you think would force lightning do to them ? At least heat them up which can be pretty unpleasent for Kar as they are attached to his arms.



Where did Kar ever beat Mace with the force ?

Aside of that: You have to consider Dooku's fighting style. He fights with one hand only and can apply force attacks with the other. In fact he had no problem to use force lightning on Sora Bulq while parrying the Jedi at the same time and in the ROTS movie he simply force chokes Obi-Wan (who is a Jedi Council member) with apparent ease and tosses him through the room like a ragdoll.

Yet Kar does have virtually no defence against offensive force powers which Mace did never try against him. And Dooku has a nice amount of those considering his Dark Side abilities as well as normal Jedi powers used offensive. You should consider that Mace did finally beat Kar with a simple force push. If he can't defend against telekinesis (and he, unlike all Jedi, has never had any training to actually pull something like that off) Dooku can beat him quite easily with the force even though Kar would most likely defeat him in a sheer melee duel (lightsaber vs shields).