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Okay, I'll probably get shot down, but we were discussing before how AWE would have a lot of throwbacks to COTBP, kind of bookending the series. Someone has a great sig of Liz and Barbossa and labeled it "the traitor and the mutineer," and that inspired this question/idea.

Jack says in COTBP that the deepest circle of hell is reserved for traitors and mutineers. If Dante has anything to say about it, he's right. From what I've heard, everybody is going to backstab everybody in AWE and several characters have already betrayed each other.

So my thought is that maybe we will see some other "hell-like" situation besides Jack's Purgatory/Locker. Liz has already screwed up, Barbossa's a mutineer, Jack, depending how you look at things, has betrayed people and will do so in AWE, and Will will also, so who is safe? Not to defend Jack too much, but if you never really intend for someone to get hurt (such as saying he'll tell Barbossa the name but had no intention of really doing so), then are you a traitor? If he's the most innocent one by the time AWE starts as far as backstabbing goes, the others may be in a sort of Locker of their own, or in a reality where their nightmares and fears start playing out. Just a thought.

Wow,I never thought of any of that.

Well, that's an interesting thought. The writers have said that AWE will be about choices and the consequences of those choices. Sometimes becoming an adult is accepting the consequences of your actions even though those consequences are too horrible to comprehend.

I've always thought that in order for the characters to achieve some sort of arch, they'll have to give up what they want most. So, from a certain perspective, Will on some level will have to give up living happily ever after with Elizabeth.

Elizabeth is a little trickier, but either she'll have to give up Will, unlikely, or she'll have to give up her freedom in order for her story to be complete.

Jack is more interesting because he's already been to Purgatory, but I don't think he's quite learned his lesson yet. He's chained to the fate of the Pearl because he sacrificed his principles in giving up his soul to Jones. In order to achieve a character arch, I would surmise that he'll have to give up the Pearl, and possibly Elizabeth.


Does that make sense? I'll try to explain it more clearly if I need to, but I agree with your idea. I think you're onto something!

It does make sense. I don't know that Jack would have to give up the Pearl or Liz, but something along the lines of almost losing them might do the trick. It's hard to appreciate something if no one's ever threatened to take it away from you. At least when Jack was in the Locker he had the Pearl and in most of his tough problems, Liz was around to help out. I think the closest he came to really losing either was when he made the decision to abandon the Pearl. If he had gotten to abandon it, maybe we would see a different kind of Jack. But as for the others, I really wonder how much suffering is going to go on.

Well, quite a bit if the rumors are true. They'll all endure a major loss in their lives, Elizabeth especially. Essentially, if you think of all the characters as having principals at the end of the first film, and then think of how those principals were sacrificed on some level to gain what they wanted, you'll see why the punishment is so severe. They weren't true to their inner character, if that makes sense. Look at Norrington for example. He made a very noble sacrifice at the end of COTBP, which added great depth to his character. But by the end of DMC, he had sacrificed all that he gained in the first film for his "honour." Judging from the leaked scripts, the good man he once was has disappeared on some level, so the suffering has to force him to regain his true honour.

I'm not sure that what Will wants most is to live happily with Elizabeth. I think what he wants most is plain old Elizabeth, and I think what Elizabeth wants most is Will.


They might have to give that up, or they may be forced to be seperated for a length of time as a 'punishment' of sorts.


Then again, I'm not sure what each character wants most, but I do think that they will have to suffer and then redeem themselves.

But do you think it will be a hell-like suffering, something like the other plain of existence Jack will be found in? I don't know if I mean figuratively or literally, but if such a big deal is made about them all becoming traitors and a whole line about what happens to traitors, I see that as a link.

I think in a way they all want freedom most, even Will for you skeptics out there. Will was not happy being some drunk guy's measly apprentice watching everyone else have all the fun. Liz, we all know Liz wants to be free, it's just a matter of the context in which she'll feel she is the most free. Jack has always wanted to be free and I think he's going through a period where he's wondering if he should redefine what freedom is.

I'm not sure about that, I'll have to ponder it.


I'm not sure I would classify Jack as completely "innocent" either, because regardless of intentions, he was sometimes very wreckless with other peoples' lives (and souls). Even if he had a plan to save everyone in the end, it doesn't mean that he has the right to barter with something that does not truly belong to him.

Very true, and innocent was a poor choice of words. However, I don't think traitor or mutineer really fit Jack up to this point. I'm sure that will change once AWE comes out, but as of now, he isn't either of those things. Wreckless? At times. Too secretive about his plans? Yes. But if you listen to when he says the line, he doesn't think much of people who betray and mutiny, and that's probably why he holds Bootstrap in such a high regard. I'm sure he heard what happened to Bootstrap after Bootstrap defended Jack and said the crew deserved to be cursed. And as I said before, if Jack is "innocent," he's not going to stay that way long. I'm just saying as of right now, he's in the most hellish place out of all of them and he probably deserves it the least (or close to the least).

I don't think any of the protagonists deserve what Jack is going through. And I'm not sure his motivations were any better than say Will's desire to save his father or Elizabeth wishing to save Will and herself and the crew.


Jack seems to know the difference (or he did...as you say, much can change in AWE) between a real betrayal (done for selfish reasons), or a betrayal done because of absolute desperation for another.


Now, as for characters suffering...I think they will. I suspect that they will have forms of suffering and/or sacrifice that will have to be fulfilled before their arcs are completed.


Oh, and I'm so pleased that you pointed out how Will wanted freedom too. He seems far too intelligent and gentlemanly to have simply wanted to remain a blacksmith, trapped in a drudgery-filled life. I think he wanted to shake off the constraints of society just as much as Elizabeth, but I don't think he dreamed of it as often, simply because he's more of a realist than she is.

I think if their wedding had never been interrupted, Will might have gone for a naval position or something. That provides the adventure he wants, but with security and boundaries, not to mention being on the right side of the law. Liz could go with him so she wouldn't be a bored little drudge. But fate intervenes....

You don't think any single person deserves to be in the Locker? I do.

lol I made my siggy this morning having this very thing in mind

wow! what a coincidence!!! hehe

Gosh....Lizzie really looks wicked in that siggy, Amber

lizzie is wicked..but in a good way
by the way nice siggy lovethemtigers!
nice siggy everybody!

i liked the wickedness I thought it went along with Barbsy

^^it does!!! and very nicely!

Originally posted by willofthewisp
I think if their wedding had never been interrupted, Will might have gone for a naval position or something. That provides the adventure he wants, but with security and boundaries, not to mention being on the right side of the law. Liz could go with him so she wouldn't be a bored little drudge. But fate intervenes....

You don't think any single person deserves to be in the Locker? I do.

Who? All of them, or only a few? My guess is that you're thinking Elizabeth deserves to be in the locker. Is that correct? Or are you also thinking of Norrington? What actions define punishment as great as the locker, in your opinion? I'm curious as to how you would define it. It seems you are more sympathetic with Jack though of all the characters, he's not necessarily led the life of inherrent nobility.

Beckett could go to the locker. He's mean enough. Him and Mercer.

Not Davy though. All he really needs is a hug. hug

Although maybe thats all Beckett needs too.

Not Mercer though. That guy is pure evil.

Ha, would you really want to give Davy a hug though? With all those tentacles? Talk about slime.

I don't know why, but Beckett isn't quite evil enough for me. Maybe I like my villains to be diabolical and sadistic. He's cunning, he's short, but he doesn't mame, kill or even kick fluffy bunnies. I'm hoping he'll prove me wrong in Awe. Moreover, he doesn't have an evil chuckle. He can't even crack a quasi-vicious smile. He's a very restrained super villain.

He's an angry little man... not the kind of villian that goes out and beats you up. He sits at his desk pouting while his hitman go kill you.

Thats how I see him! hehe

Oh. And Tia Dalma can hug him for me...

I've been thinkin a lot about the line "lt would never have worked
between us."...maybe is about elizabeth betrayin jack and saying that they can't be a team or something... i don't know...just a thought

Well, I was thinking more along the lines of the main group of protagonists when Willo was talking about someone being in the Locker.


I think that Beckett might deserve the Locker, simply because he may not be physically harming anybody (since he has Mercer to do that), but the fact that he would order it to happen makes him pretty vicious. He's similar to Jack in that he bargains with people's lives and he's fabulous at manipulating people, but unlike Jack, he doesn't have the higher purpose of planning to save everyone at the end of the day.


I adore Beckett and his snarkiness, his smirk, and his boots. I bet he does kick fluffy bunnies, but he doesn't let anyone see him.

"Who? All of them, or only a few? My guess is that you're thinking Elizabeth deserves to be in the locker. Is that correct? Or are you also thinking of Norrington? What actions define punishment as great as the locker, in your opinion? I'm curious as to how you would define it. It seems you are more sympathetic with Jack though of all the characters, he's not necessarily led the life of inherrent nobility."-----savvysparrow.

The thing is, I can't really define what I'm asking. If everyone is a traitor, then everyone deserves some kind of suffering that's more severe than what they've already gone through, almost like a hell on earth scenario. That's probably what the big battle will be like, but as far as specific people were concerned, I would put Barbossa in the Locker, especially since he's going to betray them all again, and depending on how they work with Norrington at first, I'd put him in there, too. Not for very long because I think he will regret taking the heart. Liz? Hmm, as much as I love that kiss, she does need to be punished for doing it. Hopefully Will's coldness to her and Jack's inability to deal with her at first will be psychological punishment, but she hasn't had to sacrifice anything or really make herself vulnerable yet.

Now everyone thinks I'm this punishment-Nazi that's out to get everyone. I just think some more suffering is part of a lot of these people's characters arcs.

Beckett's not a villain?

LOL

How do you think the Black Pearl became "Black"?

she has black sails. and she was pulled out of the depths - there is sea dark- and Jack made deal with Davy Jones

Beckett had her burned and sunk when she was still the Wicked Wench.

Is there any symbolism to the name Black Pearl? I always figured somewhere there would be. The most I can come up with is that a black pearl would be a very rare thing to find and may not be everyone's cup of tea, but has a beauty all its own. That certainly fits the ship itself and its captain.

Originally posted by Ericadawn
Beckett's not a villain?

LOL

How do you think the Black Pearl became "Black"?


Ha, true. I wasn't encorporating past villainous actions. But in DMC, he's more like a fiendish Banker than a super meglomaniac.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Is there any symbolism to the name Black Pearl? I always figured somewhere there would be. The most I can come up with is that a black pearl would be a very rare thing to find and may not be everyone's cup of tea, but has a beauty all its own. That certainly fits the ship itself and its captain.


well, and in the pacific black pearls are/were considered more valuable than white pearls because they were more rare and only found in certain places. you had to basically risk your life to dive down and get them.

I don't know if I would put Norrington in the Locker, even if he stole the heart. The reason for this, I think, is because he's already been suffering for months, and he makes a poor decision based on a lack of information, not because he hates everybody.


I think that he figured the crew of the Dutchman would go after him, take the chest, and leave the others alone. He has no idea about Jack's deal with Davy, or that the Kraken is after him specifically because of said deal. For all James knows, the reason DJ is pissed at Jack is because Jack is going after the heart as well.


I think in the beginning of AWE, James will be trying to ignore what kind of person he's working for, simply because he doesn't want to believe that his actions were wrong.


As for Liz, I don't think I'd put her in the locker either, because she's already suffering. She's suffering from the loss of her friend, from the loss of her fiance, and from a loss of self. She almost can't bear who she has become, and when she finds out there is a way to redeem herself by righting the wrong that she's done, she jumps at it, determined, perhaps, to prove to herself that she's a good person after all.


I think Davy probably deserves the locker, mainly because his job is to take care of those who perish in the seas, and he fails miserably at it because some woman ditched him. He's not remotely repentant, like Norrington seems to be, and I don't think DJ would try to regain his honor like Elizabeth or James.


Will...I don't know. He'll be driven into some pretty dark places in AWE, but again, I think he'll be repentant enough that punishment in the locker would not be appropriate.


However, all the characters are going to suffer for the choices that they make, and for some it will be a huge burden to carry until they find the appropriate time and place to redeem themselves. I'm glad Ted and Terry allow the characters to deal with the unpleasant consequences of their actions, instead of just brushing poor choices under the rug and ignoring them. It makes the characters much more human.

eh, i wouldnt put anyone else in the locker, except to see them rescued dramatically by someone who loves them... i think you know where my imagination is going with this...

*sailorleo puts on scuba gear* yup!

Hee hee, I'm glad you didn't get mad at me for at least imagining Norrie in the Locker, sailor. After much thought, I've decided he doesn't need to be there.
They all are suffering right now, I agree. But I think it's going to escalate. Davy definitely belongs there. He's not this sweetie-pie deep down. Losing his love is no excuse to start picking up sailors and making them slaves. Davy's a bastard and I look forward to seeing Jack kill him.

I guess I'm done with this thread. I never knew exactly what I was asking anyway, lol.