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Ok im not sure what to say about this, but this is a thread to discuss Communsim and Athesim.

Well I guess the question is can Communism considered to be an atheistic system?

P.S. I dont have an opinion on this at the moment I want to hear what others have to say.

Religion is the opium of the masses.


Plus today's Christianity seems to support capitalism. If you take religion out of the picture, you will listen to the leader of the country instead of a god or said god's representatives.

Originally posted by Marxman
Religion is the opium of the masses.



Right thats Carl Marx right? So that implies that one of the principles of Communism is that atheism is a good thing?

Karl Marx Stated Religion was the opium of the Broud Masses however the main point of communism is the economy(hopefully people Reading this know that much) and when communism first started blossoming the church was one of the most wealthy and greedy things around,this instilled a sense of hate of Religion early revolutionary's like Vladmir Illich Lenin,Stalin however made himself in some ways a god religious material burned and a picture of him in every house this tradition know as stalinism continued into nations like North Korea Where on every wall there is a picture of the great leader Kim Il Sung and the dear leader Kim Jong Il,North Korea has its own Ideology Juche(Self Reliance(I had the sig lol))Which in a way puts the Great Leader and Dear Leader as gods so label Juche as a Religion or political Religion or cult but North Korea(DPRK)Claims Juche to be the best type of Socalism-Communism but truly the only 100% Atheist Socalist-Communist State was Enver Hoxha's Albania(most badass leader in history lol)destroyed all Religion and remained that way until his death in 1985 of course he also built random pill boxes all over albania lol,the sino-soviet split also had something to do with Religion,In conclusion communism itself can sometimes be a Religion,and generally revisionism and new ideas inside of communism led to Religion in communism

Yeah but my question to you guys is....since Communism says that atheism is a positive thing could you consider it to be an atheistic system, because it seems that atheism is or was a major principle in Communsim

No because atheism is rarly complete in communism and many times communism is the religon

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah but my question to you guys is....since Communism says that atheism is a positive thing could you consider it to be an atheistic system, because it seems that atheism is or was a major principle in Communsim No, Karl Marx was atheist but that didn't lead him to think up Communism.

This is a cool thread, it always neat to think about the link in things like this.

Religion can somewhat be reduced to rituals and beliefs about the world. Communism and communist states often incorporated many of these ideas in their methods of holding power over people.

I think in a very academic sense, communism is atheistic, in that it recognizes no God. In fact, I think the question is moot in many ways because communism as a theory says nothing about the existence of the divine, and there is no reason a communist couldn't also be a theist. For Marx, it was the subversive structure of religion that he hated. People became addicted and out of touch with reality, hence the reference to opium. It is likely that communism is against the established hierarchical structure of the church, though it is very ironic given that most if not all communist leaders have had to resort to many of the same tactics of persuasion, indoctrination and coercion as organized religions do in order to keep their people happy.

Originally posted by lord xyz
No, Karl Marx was atheist but that didn't lead him to think up Communism.

Exactly...Marx began his works after he saw how the poor were explouited by the capitalist controllers. In the 1800 the conditions of factories were so horrible that the poor decided they'd rather be homeless and emigrated to the streets of London, which offcourse did not sit well with The Capitalist controllers or the Bourgeoise, which convinced teh gov at the ime to pass 'The poorman laws' which forbade one from being unemployeed, and if one was caught living in the streets, homeless, they would be sent back to those factores, except this time, they would not get paid their low wages, in fact they would have to work for no pay.

...Also the reason Marx left christianity was because his father was Jewish, and forced to convert to christianity

Communism was originally an economic system. It really didn't have much to do with religion. One can be a communist, and still be Christian.

Originally posted by ~Flamboyant~
Communism was originally an economic system. It really didn't have much to do with religion. One can be a communist, and still be Christian. Correct but most are not

Early Christians seemed to run their small communities in a communistic sort of way, as shown in the Acts of the Apostles.

Just thought I'd throw that out there for any Christians who thought Christianity would only be supported in a capitalist society.

Originally posted by TRH
No because atheism is rarly complete in communism and many times communism is the religon

Well Christanity is a Monotheistic religon because one of its main beliefs is that there is one God. At any rate Communism is an atheistic ideology because one if its main points is atheism.


Originally posted by lord xyz
No, Karl Marx was atheist but that didn't lead him to think up Communism.

Well no I think it did. Karl was an atheist because he believed it was correct he then creates an ideology which is atheistic in which people should be encouraged to abandon belief in God.

Mohammed believed in one God, he created an ideology that "encouraged" people to accept one god.

It seems to me atheism was one of Communisms major points. Accepting religon in Communism would go against Communism according to Karl Marx.

Read the Communist Manifesto. You'll see that atheism had no influence on what he wrote in there. It was the working class's struggle.

Originally posted by Marxman
Read the Communist Manifesto. You'll see that atheism had no influence on what he wrote in there. It was the working class's struggle.

Yeah but atheism seems to still have been one of the major points. Where did religon is the opuim of the masses come from?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah but atheism seems to still have been one of the major points. Where did religon is the opuim of the masses come from?

voila

Originally posted by inamilist
For Marx, it was the subversive structure of religion that he hated. People became addicted and out of touch with reality, hence the reference to opium. It is likely that communism is against the established hierarchical structure of the church, though it is very ironic given that most if not all communist leaders have had to resort to many of the same tactics of persuasion, indoctrination and coercion as organized religions do in order to keep their people happy.

et plus de....

To communist leaders, religion is a compeating power. When a group tries to rule the minds of a population like they do in a communist dictatorship they MUST eliminate any other influence on their people.

The reason tyrants like Stalin opposed the church was specifically for this reason. It was a power struggle between two conflicting ideologies.

On a very idealistic ground, communists may be anti-establishment enough to not like the idea of organized religion as such, but that does not for any logical reason preclude belief in some god.

An interesting note is that, afaik, Mao used things like religion to further sell the communist ideology. Perhaps it is easier to indoctrinate someone to an economic system when those ideals are placed beside ideals that they already believe (traditional chinese folklore) or benevolent religious teachings like those of buddhism.

The line between communism and religion is pretty blurry, and totally arbitrary. Unless your only criteria for "religion" is belief in a specific god (that can't be a head of state).

Originally posted by inamilist


To communist leaders, religion is a compeating power. When a group tries to rule the minds of a population like they do in a communist dictatorship they MUST eliminate any other influence on their people.

The reason tyrants like Stalin opposed the church was specifically for this reason. It was a power struggle between two conflicting ideologies.

On a very idealistic ground, communists may be anti-establishment enough to not like the idea of organized religion as such, but that does not for any logical reason preclude belief in some god.

An interesting note is that, afaik, Mao used things like religion to further sell the communist ideology. Perhaps it is easier to indoctrinate someone to an economic system when those ideals are placed beside ideals that they already believe (traditional chinese folklore) or benevolent religious teachings like those of buddhism.

The line between communism and religion is pretty blurry, and totally arbitrary. Unless your only criteria for "religion" is belief in a specific god (that can't be a head of state).

Well I have my own little saying...the more you analyse something the more confusing it becomes. I think this is whats happening here.

Yeah I guess you could call Communism a religon, but regardless of wether its a religon or an ideology it could still be considered an atheistic ideology.

I guess you could call all relgions ideologies instead of religons. I think when people think of religon they usually think of gods or spirits or some concept of the afterlife, Communism doesnt have this...i think.... so it could be considered to be an ideology.

You're right. Someone got very confused.

Communism cannot be recognised as religion. Communism as an idea, that is.
It is exactly like saying Capitalism or Socialism can be considered religions. They are not and they cannot.
Its a complitely different phenomenon altogether.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok im not sure what to say about this, but this is a thread to discuss Communsim and Athesim.

Well I guess the question is can Communism considered to be an atheistic system?

P.S. I dont have an opinion on this at the moment I want to hear what others have to say.

( mind begins to ache)


no.

Two very different things very.

Communism can dictate religion or lack of it.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness

Communism cannot be recognised as religion. Communism as an idea, that is.
It is exactly like saying Capitalism or Socialism can be considered religions. They are not and they cannot.
Its a complitely different phenomenon altogether.

I think this depends more on the definition of religion

for instance, several "ideologies" from the east are considered "religions" simply because they have weird rituals and practice, though follow very few of the standard "religious" conventions we would describe. A lot of new age religious stuff is much like this as well, mainly since it has roots in eastern mythology.

If in talking about religion you mean "belief in something" then socialism and capitalism and any other ideologies can be a "religion". However, if you take it in a more western sense, then things like Buddhism or Confucianism wouldn't be religions, nor would astrology and other crap of the like.

IMHO there is almost no reason to distinguish between ideology and religion. Maybe the best way to look at it would be as a continuum based on things like rituals, indoctrination, accountability, transparency etc. On a scale like this, capitalism and socialism are going to fall at the lowest end, seeing as there is almost (re:almost) no indoctrination in their systems, and they are normally open, democratic and free. Mainstream religion would probably score lower than communism in practice, since there are very strong similarities between them as far as rituals and indoctrination goes, however in moderate Christianity and Islam (or any other major religion) the leaders are accountable to the people and generally behave in a transparent manner. Of course on the far end of the scale you get stuff like cults and Scientology or even some conspiracy theories.

Originally posted by inamilist
This is a cool thread, it always neat to think about the link in things like this.

Religion can somewhat be reduced to rituals and beliefs about the world. Communism and communist states often incorporated many of these ideas in their methods of holding power over people.

I think in a very academic sense, communism is atheistic, in that it recognizes no God. In fact, I think the question is moot in many ways because communism as a theory says nothing about the existence of the divine, and there is no reason a communist couldn't also be a theist. For Marx, it was the subversive structure of religion that he hated. People became addicted and out of touch with reality, hence the reference to opium. It is likely that communism is against the established hierarchical structure of the church, though it is very ironic given that most if not all communist leaders have had to resort to many of the same tactics of persuasion, indoctrination and coercion as organized religions do in order to keep their people happy. Communism is one ruler of a bunch of peasants. How is that saying there is no god? If anything it's saying it is!

Originally posted by lord xyz
Communism is one ruler of a bunch of peasants. How is that saying there is no god? If anything it's saying it is!

yes and no

the parallels are abundant, however, there is no claim in communist doctrine that the leader of the state is a divine being (in fact, pure communism would have no single leader) and it would be ridiculous to call someone who follows a mortal leader a theist for that.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Communism is one ruler of a bunch of peasants. How is that saying there is no god? If anything it's saying it is!

What so a ruler is a god now is it? When we debate proof of God in the religon forum we are debating proof of a ruler?

Originally posted by inamilist
I think this depends more on the definition of religion

for instance, several "ideologies" from the east are considered "religions" simply because they have weird rituals and practice, though follow very few of the standard "religious" conventions we would describe. A lot of new age religious stuff is much like this as well, mainly since it has roots in eastern mythology.

If in talking about religion you mean "belief in something" then socialism and capitalism and any other ideologies can be a "religion". However, if you take it in a more western sense, then things like Buddhism or Confucianism wouldn't be religions, nor would astrology and other crap of the like.

IMHO there is almost no reason to distinguish between ideology and religion. Maybe the best way to look at it would be as a continuum based on things like rituals, indoctrination, accountability, transparency etc. On a scale like this, capitalism and socialism are going to fall at the lowest end, seeing as there is almost (re:almost) no indoctrination in their systems, and they are normally open, democratic and free. Mainstream religion would probably score lower than communism in practice, since there are very strong similarities between them as far as rituals and indoctrination goes, however in moderate Christianity and Islam (or any other major religion) the leaders are accountable to the people and generally behave in a transparent manner. Of course on the far end of the scale you get stuff like cults and Scientology or even some conspiracy theories.

The problem is that your defintion of religon can encompass anything.

Originally posted by Alfheim
What so a ruler is a god now is it? When we debate proof of God in the religon forum we are debating proof of a ruler?



The problem is that your defintion of religon can encompass anything. Well, if God isn't the ruler of us, what is he?

Originally posted by Alfheim

The problem is that your defintion of religon can encompass anything.

no, my definition of ideology can encompass anything

I see no reason to distinguish between religion and ideology

Originally posted by lord xyz
Well, if God isn't the ruler of us, what is he?

logical fallacy. You are starting with a conclusion and not stating your premise.

God is the ruler, as he is stated in religious context -- someone we must follow, abide by, obey, etc.

He/she is the one being in which we are all a custom to, who we are all inferior to. Denying this is blasphemy. This is how God is shown. I interperate God as this ruler. If God is not, than what?

Originally posted by lord xyz
I interperate God as this ruler.

excellent, you stated your premise

Originally posted by lord xyz
God is the ruler, as he is stated in religious context -- someone we must follow, abide by, obey, etc.

He/she is the one being in which we are all a custom to, who we are all inferior to. Denying this is blasphemy. This is how God is shown.

still starting with a conclusion

Originally posted by lord xyz
If God is not, than what?

If not god than who is the ultimate one supreme lord and ruler of the universe....

well, thats a logical fallacy called a tautology.

Religion and Communism are opposing ideologys and as such cannot exist together (as communism seeks to remove all opposing idology)

seems to work fine in cuba

Originally posted by inamilist
excellent, you stated your premise



still starting with a conclusion



If not god than who is the ultimate one supreme lord and ruler of the universe....

well, thats a logical fallacy called a tautology. There is no ruler. Every being is responcible only to themself, and their children.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Right thats Carl Marx right? So that implies that one of the principles of Communism is that atheism is a good thing? They disallow all religions by having every person to not practice religion. During the timeso f stalin however, they took the rights of every human, so of course atheism was supported at the time.

The Soviet Union banned organised religion to stop opposition. I don't know if it's a communist thing or just a Soviet thing. A bit weird since in the 1980's the pope, who is head of the Catholic church, was Polish - a Soviet state at the time.

Originally posted by JacopeX
They disallow all religions by having every person to not practice religion. During the timeso f stalin however, they took the rights of every human, so of course atheism was supported at the time.

Yeah of course but some idiot was telling that its illogical to use Communism as an example of Atheism.

As others have said, in a Communistic society, the state is above all else. Religion is a higher-order to most followers/believers, so obviously they would take God's Law over Man's. Questioning of Man's Law isn't tolerated.

The two ideologies conflict and therefore religion must be stamped out.

This isn't the reason Marx gave for his advocation of atheism, but it's the way it usually pans out.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with religion in a communist society. It is hard to combine both but communism imo doesn't exclude religion automatically. As many people have already said this was what happened in most countries, but then again I don't think there is any true communist country in this world.

What Marx said about religion and opium has to be seen in its context and in that context only.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok im not sure what to say about this, but this is a thread to discuss Communsim and Athesim.

Well I guess the question is can Communism considered to be an atheistic system?

P.S. I dont have an opinion on this at the moment I want to hear what others have to say.

In short yes. But that doesn't mean that the state can't have it's own religion. Like the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association (which was basically pro-communism) was an attempt to oversee/rule/thwart the Catholic Church in China. In short, communism has no problem with religion, as long as said religion worships the state.

I vote libertarian.



31

Originally posted by lord xyz
There is no ruler. Every being is responcible only to themself, and their children. I also take this back. It's not every being responsible for themself. I now believe the supreme ruler is society...

Originally posted by Alfheim
Right thats Carl Marx right? So that implies that one of the principles of Communism is that atheism is a good thing? I think you're confusing Marxism with Communism.

Marxism is no religion. Communism is kinda like "dictated socialism". And I quote that because that's my way of describing it.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I vote libertarian.



31

Me too.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok im not sure what to say about this, but this is a thread to discuss Communsim and Athesim.

Well I guess the question is can Communism considered to be an atheistic system?

P.S. I dont have an opinion on this at the moment I want to hear what others have to say.

Does not believing in religion make a person an atheist?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Does not believing in religion make a person an atheist? No, actually.

Originally posted by lord xyz
No, actually.

I think that a lot of religious people do.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I think that a lot of religious people do. Well, God is a part of religion.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Well, God is a part of religion.

Yes, but religion is separate from the idea of a god. The communists where against religion, not necessarily any god.

I know.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Right thats Carl Marx right? So that implies that one of the principles of Communism is that atheism is a good thing?
Communism isn't strictly athiest or religious.

Most religious people are communists. They want to be charitable and lookout for one another. The reason religious people support capitalism is because they're still under the red-scare impression that communists are godless assholes who want to slaughter them and destroy anything Biblicaly related.


Not true, most communists really don't care. They just want to control the means of production to minimize crime.

If the government controls the drug industry, how can people become addicts? You can only get drugs if the government says it's okay.

If the government controls welfare and contraceptives, how can people become whores? You risk losing all your health bennefits if you annoy the government.


Communism is just the logical conclusion that mankind as an individual cannot be trusted to run thier own life. Individualism leads to debauchery, violence, dellussion, and suffering. Capitalism only exsists to perpetuate individualism.


Religious people should be communist. It's even in the Bible.
"Mankind cannot have two masters. They must choose between God and Mammom (Greed)."

I'm paraphrasing, but you get the general idea.

Communism was created by capitalists known as The Illuminati to divide the people amongst themselves and make them wage wars against each other.

Here are some more of the "isms" created by The Illuminati, you might have heard of some of them:

theism fascism nazism communism capitalism feminism darwinism dogmatism scepticism nihilism racism idealism occultism spiritualism catholicism materialism egoism judaism polytheism baptism paganism conservatism hinduism pantheism satanism realism vegetarianism ritualism paganism emotionalism altruism mysticism criticism esotericism christianism pessimism barbarism buddhism fanaticism theism asceticism transcendentalism gnosticism monotheism

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Does not believing in religion make a person an atheist? No, neither being part of a Religion nor refusing to do so make a person aheist or theist.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok im not sure what to say about this, but this is a thread to discuss Communsim and Athesim.

Well I guess the question is can Communism considered to be an atheistic system?

P.S. I dont have an opinion on this at the moment I want to hear what others have to say.

Communism in practice has always been a athiestic system (as far as I know) but it is not explicitly needed in order to be Communist.

Originally posted by inimalist


I think in a very academic sense, communism is atheistic, in that it recognizes no God. .

This is what I can not understand no matter how hard I try: what economic system "recognizes God?"

Part of this entire confusion with crap comes from no one even understanding what it is and even today people confuse it for a political system.

Rhetoric is so important...

Originally posted by pcp
Religion and Communism are opposing ideologys and as such cannot exist together (as communism seeks to remove all opposing idology)

This is not true. I'll explain later but I'm eating Cheetos now

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I vote libertarian.



31 I'm libertarian/left wing. ...ermm

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
You're right. Someone got very confused.

Communism cannot be recognised as religion. Communism as an idea, that is.
It is exactly like saying Capitalism or Socialism can be considered religions. They are not and they cannot.
Its a complitely different phenomenon altogether.

You are correct but both religions and political ideologies can be dogmatic...in which case they are hard to tell apart...Mao's China for example, clearly it was a religion based on his principles...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Yes, but religion is separate from the idea of a god. The communists where against religion, not necessarily any god. Actually, theism is a religion according to google.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&q=define%3Areligion&meta=&btnG=Google+Search

Originally posted by lord xyz
Actually, theism is a religion according to google.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&q=define%3Areligion&meta=&btnG=Google+Search

Theism does not make you religious, you can simply believe that all the evidence suggests a creator of the universe and just leave it at that...

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Theism does not make you religious, you can simply believe that all the evidence suggests a creator of the universe and just leave it at that... It's still a strong belief in a supernatural power though.

Originally posted by lord xyz
It's still a strong belief in a supernatural power though.

A strong belief in a supernatural power doesn't equal a religion...

Its a component of religious but not enough on its own to equal religious belief.

I cringe a little every time I see this thread.

The two aren't linked, even though some like citing a few historical incidents in which they were. I hope to God (pun intended) no one in this thread is arguing otherwise, but I'm not going to look because it's not something I really want to debate.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I cringe a little every time I see this thread.

The two aren't linked, even though some like citing a few historical incidents in which they were. I hope to God (pun intended) no one in this thread is arguing otherwise, but I'm not going to look because it's not something I really want to debate.

In light of historic examples its stupid so say they're not linked, they oh so clearly are.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Actually, theism is a religion according to google.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&q=define%3Areligion&meta=&btnG=Google+Search
Theism isn' t a religion, faith or belief by itself. Theism is nothing more than a belief in the existence of at least one god. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc. are examples of theistic religions.

Originally posted by Storm
Theism isn' t a religion, faith or belief by itself. Theism is nothing more than a belief in the existence of at least one god. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc. are examples of theistic religions.

I see what you're saying but again that seems just one way of looking at it. I dont know if google really says that.....but if google says its a religon from a credible source then thats another opinion.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
In light of historic examples its stupid so say they're not linked, they oh so clearly are.

Oh, right. So Christianity and capitalism are clearly linked because the vast majority of our Presidents have been Christian. And I suppose an atheist President's skin would burn when he touches a free market economy.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Oh, right. So Christianity and capitalism are clearly linked because the vast majority of our Presidents have been Christian. And I suppose an atheist President's skin would burn when he touches a free market economy.



We'll have to test that now.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Oh, right. So Christianity and capitalism are clearly linked because the vast majority of our Presidents have been Christian. And I suppose an atheist President's skin would burn when he touches a free market economy.



No because most capitalists are Jewish.

I think Marx makes it clear.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
No because most capitalists are Jewish.

I think Marx makes it clear.

Marx makes what clear? That you're willing to accept 1 case study as a truism because it matches with your personal prejudices? If that wasn't horribly tragic and borderline bigoted, I'd laugh.

Also, nothing is mostly Jewish. They account for a ridiculously small percent of the world's population.

I think your playing on technicalities. Ideologically communism might be independent from atheism but they truth of the matter is they usually come together, therefore are linked.

I could say violence is not linked to Christianity as after all Christ forbids it. However, we both know that Christians can be violent and they are therefore linked.

I'm sure you can get Communists who aren't atheist and Christians who aren't violent however, that doesnt mean they aren't linked- even if only a small sense.

Ok, but my point is the former argument, that they aren't ideologically connected to one another, even if there's a couple historical precedents for it.

I'm atheist and about as far from communism as one can get without advocating outright anarchy. And I'm 1 person, just like Marx or any other. I'll happily admit that in those few instances, they may be "linked" but the term seems to imply that they are more likely to be found together, or that one leads to another, which is false.

Hitler wasn't atheist, btw...I don't know if he's been trotted out in this thread yet or not, but throughout his life he could be found justifying his hatred of the Jews in his speeches through quotations of Christian scripture.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I think your playing on technicalities. Ideologically communism might be independent from atheism but they truth of the matter is they usually come together, therefore are linked.

I could say violence is not linked to Christianity as after all Christ forbids it. However, we both know that Christians can be violent and they are therefore linked.

I'm sure you can get Communists who aren't atheist and Christians who aren't violent however, that doesnt mean they aren't linked- even if only a small sense.

Just because they're linked doesn't mean they're part of one another.

Well, I think I have a few things to add to this discussion.

First of all, I believe people are misstating Marxism.
Marxism is nothing more than a way to analyze history in order to make predictions about the future.
Marx NEVER endorsed Communism or socialism. He actually never endorsed or condemned ANY governmental system at all!
What he wrote was simply predictions, the Communist Manifesto was simply a prediction. It was him saying "Based on this historical perspective, and how society as a whole works, this is how things are going to be."
And he was kind of right, there were many worker revolutions, the first starting in Paris and the creation of the Paris Commune. But he did not predict that the major nations would band together to suppress the revolutions.

His famous phrase about religion being the opiate of the masses is him saying that every social establishments breeds a certain sort of ideology in order to get the masses to continue to work under the owners rule. This could be expressed through state sponsored religion (from which the famous phrase is derived) or any other sort of propaganda based ideology.

But the main thing to remember about Marx is that his books are only about interpreting history. His concepts is that the economy and technology drives everything about a society including who runs it, and how and even the sort of things that the society believes in. (All of this was written as a counter to the philosopher Hagel, but if you are reading this and nodding, you probably already knew that.)
Anyway. Marx's only real purpose is to document history, and attempt to predict in what direction society is going to move in. Its actually incredibly interesting if you lose the common dogma that Marx supports socialism and causes the Red Scourge and all of the conspiracy bullshit.
Marx says nothing about human nature or idealistic conditions or proper society, merely "this is how it is. This is how it was. And this is how it is going to be."

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Ok, but my point is the former argument, that they aren't ideologically connected to one another, even if there's a couple historical precedents for it.

I'm atheist and about as far from communism as one can get without advocating outright anarchy. And I'm 1 person, just like Marx or any other. I'll happily admit that in those few instances, they may be "linked" but the term seems to imply that they are more likely to be found together, or that one leads to another, which is false.

Hitler wasn't atheist, btw...I don't know if he's been trotted out in this thread yet or not, but throughout his life he could be found justifying his hatred of the Jews in his speeches through quotations of Christian scripture.

Yes I understand and agree with your argument, I was just pointing out that they are linked and it isn't really fair to say they aren't. It might just be a historical link but a link all the same...also



So you can see why it would be assumed Communism and Atheism are linked.

As for Hitler, you are correct to say he wasn't atheist but he certainly wasn't a Christian. Hitler had his Aryan belief system and was quite positive that God was a whiteman on his side...he also bought into Occultism and aliens and Atlantis but thats more Himmler's area. So, yes Hitler quoted Bible verses to justify his attack on the Jews, but lets remember he was a politician in a vastly Christian country so it is obvious that he would use Christianity to his advantage- however it was made clear that in the long run the message of Christ would have to go...all that love thy neighbour stuff had no place in the Third Reich. I think it was Hess who lamented Germany not being an Islamic country for it would have been easier for them to stir the population to war...Borman however was an atheist and often attacked the Christian religion- which upset Catholic Goebbels who wanted to keep the Christians on side...

So basically Hitler was going to try to gain the support of Christians in order to purely avoid another problem...look at how he played the Catholic Church in Austria leading up to the Anschluss ...

We should also remember Hitler wanted rid of the Jews not because he held them responsible for killing Jesus but because according to the likes of Chamberlain or Nietzsche they were a sub-human race trying to take over the world...(I don't know if that was Nietzsche's view but his atheist ideals certainly lay the foundations for Hitler's eugenics program.)

So Hitler wasn't but was an atheist...he certainly believed in a supernatural world of Vikings and Blonde people...but he summed Christianity up as "deplorable mumbo jumbo"

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
As for Hitler, you are correct to say he wasn't atheist but he certainly wasn't a Christian. Hitler had his Aryan belief system and was quite positive that God was a whiteman on his side...he also bought into Occultism and aliens and Atlantis but thats more Himmler's area. So, yes Hitler quoted Bible verses to justify his attack on the Jews, but lets remember he was a politician in a vastly Christian country so it is obvious that he would use Christianity to his advantage- however it was made clear that in the long run the message of Christ would have to go...all that love thy neighbour stuff had no place in the Third Reich. I think it was Hess who lamented Germany not being an Islamic country for it would have been easier for them to stir the population to war...Borman however was an atheist and often attacked the Christian religion- which upset Catholic Goebbels who wanted to keep the Christians on side...

So basically Hitler was going to try to gain the support of Christians in order to purely avoid another problem...look at how he played the Catholic Church in Austria leading up to the Anschluss ...



So Hitler wasn't but was an atheist...he certainly believed in a supernatural world of Vikings and Blonde people...but he summed Christianity up as "deplorable mumbo jumbo"

The fact that he wasn't really a Christian doesn't matter. It's just that he wasn't an athiest.

BTW: how did this get to Hitler? (considering he wasn't a communist)

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
We should also remember Hitler wanted rid of the Jews not because he held them responsible for killing Jesus but because according to the likes of Chamberlain or Nietzsche they were a sub-human race trying to take over the world...(I don't know if that was Nietzsche's view but his atheist ideals certainly lay the foundations for Hitler's eugenics program.)

I thought Nietzche was more anti organized religion than atheist. When did he say the Jews were sub-human?

Digimark mentioned him, Nietzche was very much atheist "God is dead, he remains dead and we killed him." I never said he was anti-semitic, in fact I said I wasn't aware if he was...but he certainly bought into the eugenic idea.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Nietzche was very much atheist "God is dead, he remains dead and we killed him."

"What are these churches if not tombs and sepulchers of God?"

I always took that part as Nietzsche trying to say that religion separated man and god.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I never said he was anti-semitic, in fact I said I wasn't aware if he was...but he certainly bought into the eugenic idea.

My mistake.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Yes I understand and agree with your argument, I was just pointing out that they are linked and it isn't really fair to say they aren't. It might just be a historical link but a link all the same...also

But by that definition, any ideology could be linked to a religion, because we have vastly more historical incidents of Christians, Hindus, Muslims, etc. in political roles than atheists. But the public generally ignores them because it's much more socially acceptable to say negative things about atheists. Any sort of persepctive on the situation will show you that this is true, and also that you're selectively interpreting the few examples that make your point, while ignoring the vast majority of others that don't.

Also, If you're trying to work Hitler around to being an atheist again, and using that to justify the "link" between atheism and communism, then you're a moron. Hopefully that's not the case. Say what you will about his perversion of Christianity, but that's all it was.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Digimark mentioned him, Nietzche was very much atheist "God is dead, he remains dead and we killed him." I never said he was anti-semitic, in fact I said I wasn't aware if he was...but he certainly bought into the eugenic idea.

The idea that God is dead was more a commentary on the ways of men and organized religion than positing an opinion on the presence (or lack thereof) of an omnipotent deity. A detailed analysis of any of his writings will reveal as much, since he was concerned with human action rather than spiritual philosophizing. In Nietzche's "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" the title character actually speaks of a divine creator that only dies out of pity for his creations. So even if we consider him atheist by these remarks (which is sketchy at best) we have to consider him a former agnostic because he admits a creator present at one point.

Nietzche's writings, after his death, were under the care of his sister, who was a Nazi sympathizer. She altered many of the original manuscripts and publications to subvert them to Nazi purposes. Organized anything, be it religious or political, Nietzche was strongly against, so saying his ideas were in any way anti-semitic or even hateful is very misleading.

His name is thrown about in all sorts of rumors and possibilities. It's a shame really, because he was a very interesting writer and the truthful history behind his life isn't nearly so incriminating as the rumors.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
But by that definition, any ideology could be linked to a religion, because we have vastly more historical incidents of Christians, Hindus, Muslims, etc. in political roles than atheists. But the public generally ignores them because it's much more socially acceptable to say negative things about atheists. Any sort of persepctive on the situation will show you that this is true, and also that you're selectively interpreting the few examples that make your point, while ignoring the vast majority of others that don't.


Atheism doesn't create communism. Communism doesn't create Atheists. The two things however go hand in hand on many occasions because it's so much easier to rule when no god exists and no church can possibly have a higher authority then you.

That's the problem with churches, if people believe then the word of the church is more important then the word of the government. Making Communism a very hard system to keep in check, as most other systems for that matter. A perfect nation would be atheists, it wouldn't necessary be filled with communists, it could be any form of government. However a perfect communistic state would surely be filled with atheists.

Originally posted by Fishy
Atheism doesn't create communism. Communism doesn't create Atheists. The two things however go hand in hand on many occasions because it's so much easier to rule when no god exists and no church can possibly have a higher authority then you.

That's the problem with churches, if people believe then the word of the church is more important then the word of the government. Making Communism a very hard system to keep in check, as most other systems for that matter. A perfect nation would be atheists, it wouldn't necessary be filled with communists, it could be any form of government. However a perfect communistic state would surely be filled with atheists.

Stalin disagreed. Admittedly he wasn't exactly the model Communist but he did use the Russian Orthodox Church to his benefit.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Digimark mentioned him, Nietzche was very much atheist "God is dead, he remains dead and we killed him." I never said he was anti-semitic, in fact I said I wasn't aware if he was...but he certainly bought into the eugenic idea. You very specifically said that Nietzsche thought Jews were sub-human.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Stalin disagreed. Admittedly he wasn't exactly the model Communist but he did use the Russian Orthodox Church to his benefit.

Well you can always try to use the church to your advantage but I guess it would be easier if everyone would just be an atheist. Of course there is a difference between people being an atheist and people not going to church. As long as they still believe in God then you will still have problems.

Downside of all atheists would be that's it's harder to create a reason for morale values. But if the state suppresses dissidents hard enough then the threat of death might just be enough.

Originally posted by Bardock42
You very specifically said that Nietzsche thought Jews were sub-human.



I clearly said I didn't know if that was his view...but it seems he was certainly on that track.





What he is saying, is that it's the Jews (a race meant to be dominated i.e. subhuman) who are responsible for what he saw as the greatest crime- the subversion of proper morals in order to elevate their position in the world.

More quotes





He didn't like the Jews who HE termed as subhuman..