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Ok, i would like to see nebaris "garentee" that he will make a better case for bastila to prove she will > vader.

Go on "francine". Im waiting

As far as canon goes vader close to sidious in power whom would wtf pwn bastila in a fight

Vader wins. The only Bastila has of greatness is her Battle Meditation, out of that, shes nothing special

Vader wins, but it's kinda close.

Originally posted by allfg
Bastilla was labelled a force and lightsaber prodigy by the Masters on the Dantooine Council during KotOR. I don't recall Vader (cyborg or pre cyborg) being stated or supported as being one. She was also noted as having exceptional innate talent with the force, so she ticks all of the boxes really: force strength, force prodigy and lightsaber prodigy. As a padawan, she was already considered a legend among the Jedi, a rising star among their ranks, and beyond most of the then current masters despite her lack of age/rank/experience. She was extremely prodigious. Her ability to form bonds (with Revan) also strongly speaks for her massive force strength, and this was even noted by the masters.
Bastila was not labeled a force nor saber prodigy, so stop making shit up. Nor was she considered a legend. She had one ability and that was her battle meditation. You look like a fool making shit up.


No she wasn't. Stop embarassing yourself.



You can't quantify how much training she got in the darkside nor can you quantify how much it improved her overall ability.


Nothing about her lightsaber skills is incredible, especially since there was never any mention of them.


You're a blubbering buffoon.


I deleted the rest of your pathetic argument because it's stupid beyond belief. Vader crushes Bastila with relative ease.

The only thing Bastilla has over Vader is battle meditation, something irrelevant to one on one combat. Vader kills her in saber combat or Force powers pretty easily.

Did allfg actually use game statistics and feats in his argument? You know your argument sucks when...

No, she wasn't this was never stated at all or even implied, stop lying.




Well lets take into consideration the fact that he went from a padawan getting shitted on by Count Dooku to a Jedi Knight who knew "all forms of combat even to most dangerous styles." and absolutely destroying the before-mentioned Sith Lord in 8 seconds, all in a few years.



Thats true but really so does every other main character of any Star Wars: game/novel/rpg/comic/movie/cartoon...you get my drift.



Except for your lying about 2 of those.




LOL...no.




Pfft where the f*ck did you get that shit from? The only thing in-game that even comes close to that is Bastila HERSELF claiming she was hot shit, which of course is her VERY fallible opinion.




Again, no it wasn't, and the bond formed simply because she saved his life, and considering its heavily implied in KOTOR 2 that Revan could form mass bonds I'd say that him latently forming a bond with Bastila is nothing special.



LOL...no.




Here's what happened to someone who tried to use a Double bladed saber against Vader:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=160&page=036



Gameplay element, genius.



Proof.



Proof.



Wow, she can hide really well...She must be teh mostest powaful!!@!




Proof.



Proof.



Great, so can every other neophyte Sith under the sun.




Um...no. The power up is not permanent if she was cut from her power source then logically the power would you know...go away...




Oh wow, random Dark Jedi must be powerful for the sheer fact that he was standing next to Revan




Actually it doesn't since your lying about 80% of the shit said in your argument.



Not really, no, with the fact that its in Bastila's nature at the time to run ahead arrogantly, thats logically what she did (she did it on the Leviathan) and then theres this:

Bastila is brash and impulsive. She is overconfident and seems to walk invincible through her world, though that is hardly the case. - from gamebanshee

anther point would be the Jedi needed all the help they could muster to take down Revan and would have needed even a padawan to help, anther logical reason is for her to use BM on them while fighting Revan.



No, she was able to use the force to keep him from dieing thats a BIG difference from HEALING him, she did nothing of the sort she simple (as she says in game) kept the spark alive in Revans body.


Its not they, its the source books and that scene contradicts it thus its not canon, and its pretty inconsistent with the story also: She falls to Malak after torture, she gets tooled around by some random thugs and her "LEET" will power doesn't allow her to beat Revan even after being powered up by the SF.




LOL, your following point is void cause they kinda blew.




gameplay stats...



No, not really.

*waits for Nebaris to bring out hsi usual "Well she performed X feat, so this speaks volumes... " argument, which he uses in every debate for every character. *

This is the second time I heard how powerful feat it is to mind trick a hutt...Where does it say that all Hutts are powerful against mind trick?

Originally posted by allfg
Bastilla was labelled a force and lightsaber prodigy by the Masters on the Dantooine Council during KotOR. I don't recall Vader (cyborg or pre cyborg) being stated or supported as being one.
Lol! Provide the quote where bastila was stated to be a prodigy, if i remember correctly which i do, No such thing was ever stated and According to the novels, anakin is a saber prodigy, Though vader has slowed down in dueling, he developed his style where it was stated it is highly unpredictable and it slaughtered countless jedis.

Originally posted by allfg

She was also noted as having exceptional innate talent with the force, so she ticks all of the boxes really: force strength, force prodigy and lightsaber prodigy. As a padawan, she was already considered a legend among the Jedi, a rising star among their ranks, and beyond most of the then current masters despite her lack of age/rank/experience. She was extremely prodigious. Her ability to form bonds (with Revan) also strongly speaks for her massive force strength, and this was even noted by the masters. OOOO so forming bonds = super jedi, Nice logic nebaris . The exile could form bonds far better than bastila yet she was stated by the council to only be an ordinary jedi master. And her "rising star" status was due to her participation in the war by using BM and capturing revan which sadly malak helped to finish the job.
Originally posted by allfg

She was labelled a master swordsman, and the doublebladed lightsaber was her weapon of choice, a weapon that was pretty rare by PT times, and thus would be much more deadly to someone like Vader. Deadly? Vader parried mauls attacks with ease until maul switched to jarkai. And quigon fought maul climatically though it was the first time he fought some one with a DB saber, Again nice logic you demonstrated
Originally posted by allfg

The experience she received on her journeys with Revan during KotOR 1 would had made her extremely powerful (Revan's party comes across literally hundreds of Dark Jedi during KotOR, so it can be assumed that Bastilla faced and defeated quite the number. That's just Dark Jedi, she would have also received loads of experience on all of the quests that go on through KotOR). She was already an extremely gifted and powerful Knight, so by halfway through KotOR (where she becomes a Knight) and by the end of KotOR 2 (where she's a Master), her improvement rate would have been huge (given the huge experience she received, her youth and her prodigy). The fact that she survived Sion and Nihilus' Shadow Wars also speaks volumes, and the speed in which she climbed the ranks is tremendous. Right right, "hundreds" of DJ, If i remember its 3 on each planet right? So lets see 6 planets = 18 DJs. Oops! And she had revan with her. And surviving the war = uber jedi?
I hope you are right because vader killed and murdered so many jedi who survived the purge and by your logic as i pointed out, surviving the war = uber. That meant vader killed uber jedi, tsk tsk you fail nebaris see how faulty your logic is?

Originally posted by allfg

Not only did she receive training in the lightside of the force by the Jedi, but she was also given extensive training in the darkside by Malak. This can be seen when she knows of such techniques as force lightning and force drain. She was also powered up by The Star Forge to some degree (given that Malak was relying on her impressive Battle Meditation to defeat the Republic, he would have wanted to power her up as much as possible as long as there was enough power left for him), and as we know the power up would remain permanent, so her already extremely impressive strength in the force would have been further augmented by an imaginable tremendous increase.
Not only did anakin receive training in the Lightside of the force, he made dooku look like a joke, He became a cyborg and as of that state slaughtered so many faster jedis than he is and so many "uber" jedis who survived the war and thus bringing down tanks as big as an ATAT, Shaking down a building with only his rage when he was anakin(You bet vaders force mastery and powers are greater than that of anakin save for lightsaber skills) and tearing down a building with a technique in eaw.
Originally posted by allfg


Her lightsaber skills were clearly incredible, given that when she was a mere padawan, she displayed the ability to lightsaber tool a powerful Dark Jedi that had been accompanying Revan in mere seconds (it's in a cutscene at the start of KotOR). The Dark jedi was accompanying Darth Revan, so he was clearly one of the more powerful Dark Jedi, yet Bastilla, while still a padawan, completely owned him. That kind of tremendous an=ability while still a padawan makes you wonder how powerful she becomes by the end of KotOR two, with all her extra training and experience, and after being SF powered. nice logic again. Even as the scene started bastila was already fighting that Dark jedi and she could have been fighting against that DJ for ages. Vader on the other hand parried the attacks of 4 jedi masters at once pwning sia lan wez with ease and forced maul who was using juyo to use jarkai, Note that juyo form killed quigon.
Originally posted by allfg

The fact that she was even given the responsibility to be part of the strike team that was responsible for capturing Revan speaks volumes. Now I know people will say she was only picked for her Battle Meditation, but that was to only ensure that the strike team would be able to board Revan's ship. She wouldn't have also subsequently boarded Revan's ship with the other jedi if they didn't believe she had the skills to be an asset. So the fact that the Jedi Order gave her so much responsibility (also seen when that let Bastilla in on Revan's true identity) despite her young age and lack of experience speaks volumes for how gifted a padawan she was. If bastila was so almighty powerful in the first place, why would she even need a strike team, Leia isnt as strong as luke in DE and yet she went to face the most powerful sith lord alone.
Oh and revan would have killed her and the team had malak not struck. And despite being so "godly" on the SF, revan still beat her time and again with ease and note that vader is close to revan in power, Being 80% of the most powerful sith lord is something. especially when he has enough power to pwn any sith lord
Originally posted by allfg

Now when Malak blasted on Revan's ship just before the Jedi could face him, it knocked Revan unconscious and would have killed him if not for Bastilla. Not only did she survive and remain conscious after the ship had been hit (which had enough power to kill Revan), but she was also able to use the force to heal Revan and keep him alive. And cade skywalker had the same ability, i guess it means he > vader too.
Originally posted by allfg

Now all of the above is mostly not even mentioning her force ability, which is what she excels at. First off, her willpower was so incredible that she was able to force dominate a fricking Hutt. That alone puts her will beyond any movie character, given they all viewed such a feat as impossible, and thought of Hutts as being immune to mind tricks. Well lets see, remember more will = stronger force? Sidioius lifted an entire SSD and buried it in coruscant. The exile also managed to pursuade a toydarian, yet she is inferior to revan and nihilus and yet more powerful than bastila, Your point?
Originally posted by allfg

Another thing supporting her tremendous will (as well as force strength) is how incredible her battle meditation was. It was above that of people such as Nomi Sunrider (who could literally visualise something, and it would just happen: force her will onto reality), and so strong that she had the ability to turn the tide of wars instantaneously for a side that was seconds away from defeat and losing badly. her ability with the technique was so great that both the Jedi and the Sith (when she was one) literally solely relied on it for the war effort. Sadly BM will not help her in battle
Originally posted by allfg

She's also displayed the force strength to instantly stun two very powerful jedi (Jolee Bindo and Juhani) pretty effortlessly. I don't recall Vader ever being able to force own powerful force users like that.
Right when she had the entire DS power of the SF to back her up. And she caught jolee and juhani by suprise
Originally posted by allfg

Now what people don't seem to get is overpowering any force user, no matter how you do it, always requires the same power, and that is the power to break through their force defence. In other words, if she chose to, she could have just as easily been able to instantly kill both of them on the spot. Now seeing as how people go on about Exar Kun force owning Odan-Urr like he did, and Traya owning those Jedi Masters like she did, you have to view what Bastilla did as even more incredible, given she did it instantly. So are you saying bastila > traya and bastila > exar? My my you are really really bad,

Vader pwns Bastila

Ok before I continue, I'm not arguing against all three of you (Sexy, Ac and Kadesh) so nominate one person and then I'll continue.

You can't argue period Noobaris, so don't bother. Your argument was already defeated.

You can't nominate who you argue against. If you're wrong and everyone wants to argue against you, then that's how it is. Sorry.

Meanwhile, Vader takes this. Anakin/Vader wasn't a lightsaber prodigy, eh? Let's just forget that he was a better duelist than most of the Order by the time he was in his early 20's...and let's forget that he was the Chosen One and had tons of raw power, too. Which he honed. Yup...

Bastila was a prodigy, yes, but I don't think she was all that amazing. Her training with Malak was minimal at best, I should think; any powers she uses while on the Dark Side is merely gameplay mechanics.

And the Mind Tricking of Toydarians and Hutts is, again, just crappy gameplay mechanics. TPM and ROTJ established those races as having a natural immunity to Mind Tricks. The Wizards Star Wars RPG gives them this, and samples of the species say so themselves.

This will be closed unless a reasonable argument for Bastila's victory can be posted.

She's a girl, Vader is not. Bastila wins. Now, you can close it.

Eh, I'll see what Neb tries to say first. Maybe it'll be funny. Ha. Ha.

Auf der Maur is good, btw.

Nebaris francine, Did you not just use stats? Wow so lemme see i guess i should use it too, And according to those rpg books, Vader > NJO luke, ragnos > njo luke due to stats But are they canonically stronger than luke? Hell no

Numbskull hypocrite

Originally posted by Captain REX
You can't nominate who you argue against. If you're wrong and everyone wants to argue against you, then that's how it is. Sorry.

Whether I'm wrong or not (I'm not), there's no way I'm making the same reply three different times to three different people. It's not worth my time.



You can believe what you want, but his rise in power is quite clearly due to his strength in the force, and not due to being a prodigy. Now the fact is, despite his strength in the force being the highest ever, he still didn't grow very powerful very quickly. Off the top of my head, both Bane and Exar Kun grew far more powerful far quicker than Anakin did, despite his greater force connection. There's not really anything supporting him being a prodigy. I've read the Jedi Quest books and it takes him just as long as the other padawans to grasp their lessons, it's just that once he's learned them, he naturally excels, due to his tremendous force strength. You're confusing strength in the force with prodigy.



Despite her knowing techniques such as force drain and force lightning?



Both powers aren't dependant on gameplay, meaning it doesn't vary from player to player and thus canon.



I swear it was a cutscene, I'm almost 100% sure. You can never control Bastilla during dialogue, so I'm pretty sure you're wrong here.



Fallible third parties...



Retcon?



Again, these people are all fallible. How would they know for sure that they were immune? Perhaps it had been tested by force users before, and not worked, and thus that's how they arrived at their conclusion. Doesn't mean that they would know for sure that a force user with an extremely high will could pull it off.



Arguments have already been put forward. When has Vader ever overpowered powerful force users like Bastilla did when she instantly stunned both Jolee and Juhani? When has Vader ever tooled other powerful lightsaber users like Bastilla did when she was a mere padawan? Just because Vader's a movies character, and has more exposure and a larger fanbase, it doesn't mean he automatically beats just any smalltime video game character.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Nebaris francine, Did you not just use stats? Wow so lemme see i guess i should use it too, And according to those rpg books, Vader > NJO luke, ragnos > njo luke due to stats But are they canonically stronger than luke? Hell no

Numbskull hypocrite

There's a difference between comparing stats from differnt mediums and comparing stats within the same medium.

BTW Kadesh, you really shouldn't have got caught like that.

Owned.

Originally posted by allfg


Despite her knowing techniques such as force drain and force lightning?
Despite that drain was in gameplay and not in a cut scene?

Originally posted by allfg

Both powers aren't dependant on gameplay, meaning it doesn't vary from player to player and thus canon. See the above


Originally posted by allfg


I swear it was a cutscene, I'm almost 100% sure. You can never control Bastilla during dialogue, so I'm pretty sure you're wrong here.
irrelevant, see the above


Originally posted by allfg

Fallible third parties...

No no no! Movies are higher canon. So now we go by what the movie says as stated by the almighty lord of the sock nebaris who stated this many times




Originally posted by allfg


Arguments have already been put forward. When has Vader ever overpowered powerful force users like Bastilla did when she instantly stunned both Jolee and Juhani? When has Vader ever tooled other powerful lightsaber users like Bastilla did when she was a mere padawan? Just because Vader's a movies character, and has more exposure and a larger fanbase, it doesn't mean he automatically beats just any smalltime video game character. Lets see.. he tooled roan shryne who is uber because he survived the war(Your logic) He sliced and diced sia lan wezz before her dead body hit the floor. He took down 4 masters who also survived the war with relative ease and he smashed mauls DB saber apart.

As for the force, he ripped out a tree to smash the dark woman, Used an entire waterfall to drown her, Levitated in the air. And according to wookie and the movies, he sends objects flying at his opponent in a Never ending barrage. OH how bout that he redirected the rifle shots fired at him?
And vaders apprentice in the force unleashed whom is weaker than he is sent an entire platoon of storm troopers flying in the air with force wave

http://nebaris.wasarrested.com/?loc=London&gen=m&story=16
Bad boy

Time for a lawl party!

Whether I'm wrong or not (I'm not), there's no way I'm making the same reply three different times to three different people. It's not worth my time.

Somehow, I don't think anyone cares...



I still don't see how that shows Bastila being a prodigy...and that means you're saying that Bastila is not strong in the Force, then?




Well, then it's a moment of EU overpowering. Dark Jedi were flinging lightning at me on Manaan, woohoo!




Characters always cut in when they have something to say or something to contribute to the conversation. Bastila using Mind Tricks was, apparently, what she wanted to contribute.



I think I just popped a brain cell.



Why would it be retcon? Retcon is to connect things that don't match up any more. The immunity to Mind Tricks rule has been there for the Hutts since Wizards took interest in Star Wars...



I wish to note that KOTOR is the only time that those species have been Tricked, and it depends entirely on gameplay mechanics...




Stun didn't exist until KOTOR, yay! In any case, Bastila is a Padawan; she didn't defeat Revan, though she beat him back, but Anakin did that with Dooku for a moment in AOTC until Dooku went 'I'm bored, BOOM.'

I'm closing this. It's going nowhere.