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hey all,

he's the most powerful and enigmatic entity in marvel. but . . . what is he?

there has been some disagreement regarding his nature. is he an abstract or physical being? if abstract, what does he represent? if abstract, does he use m-bodies as all other abstracts must do?

anyway, i did a little looking around and here are some things i came up with. i had told mr. masters that i believed LT WAS an abstract, and in fact represented multiversal balance. this thread (and what follws) was born from that bit of discussion.

Originally posted by Mr Master
There's my Proof.


Can you show me or direct me to yours?

"LT represents multiversal balance" ( as in embodies like an Abstract)

i conducted a small search and couldn't find the proof to back-up that particular belief. i'll keep looking, but it would be a HELL of a lot easier if someone, somewhere on the web actually put together a bibliography of character appearances . . .

anyway, i DID find the proof that backs up my claim that LT is an abstract entity -- and that is what i was trying to get at in any event.

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/6643/ltwm8.th.jpg

i thought (and still do think) that LT represents multiversal balance. (like i said, i'll continue to look for that particular bit of proof -- anyone out there recall something like that?)

but, that aside for a time, we also know that LT's faces represent 3 seperate concepts -- equity, necessity and vengeance. each face is an essentially an abstract entity. there was something interesting at marvel.com about what the faces represent and how they are manifested in each universe. this from marvel.com:



that is a pretty cool take. gives an additional meaning to each of the entities above.

anyway, my claim was that LT referred to quasar as a 'PHYSICAL' in one of mr m's many scans because LT himself was an abstract entity. as an abstract entity he would need to use an m-body to interact with physicals -- like all abstracts need to do.

in the scan above LT HIMSELF states he is an abstract entity. marvel says his faces are representations of universal aspects, and even marunapp seems to agree:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/anthropo.htm

under AFFILIATIONS, LT is listed as one of the abstract allies of anthropomorpho.

with all this, hopefully we can all agree that LT is INDEED an abstract/conceptual being. to me this also lends a great deal of support to the idea that Lt uses m-bodies to manifest in each universe in the multiverse.



what do you all think?

Indeed... The concept of the faces having manifestations in different reals was something LT himself reffered to when he spoke to silver Surfer.

He said on his own face, the trinity is Necessity, Equity, and Vengeance.

In the sphere of magik this corresponds to Order, The In-Betweener and Chaos.

In the Prime Universe this trinity is Eternity, Galactus, and Death.

The Living Tribunal was created by the One Above All as his servant to oversee the multiverse and make sure no one universe gains too much power over others.

I've noticed alot of chatter about these godlike beings on this forum section over time (both Marvel and DC) but if I wanted to read some of all this where should I start? Not counting information sites like wikipedia etc, what comics?

Originally posted by leonidas


This has semantics written all over it, which isn't a good thing to debate in this forum, especially with the calibre of intelligence.

For example if something is abstract, does that means its metaphysical ?

What is an M body b.t.w., its a term i see thrown around a lot nowadays.

Originally posted by leonidas
hey all,

he's the most powerful and enigmatic entity in marvel. but . . . what is he?

there has been some disagreement regarding his nature. is he an abstract or physical being? if abstract, what does he represent? if abstract, does he use m-bodies as all other abstracts must do?

anyway, i did a little looking around and here are some things i came up with. i had told mr. masters that i believed LT WAS an abstract, and in fact represented multiversal balance. this thread (and what follws) was born from that bit of discussion.



i conducted a small search and couldn't find the proof to back-up that particular belief. i'll keep looking, but it would be a HELL of a lot easier if someone, somewhere on the web actually put together a bibliography of character appearances . . .

anyway, i DID find the proof that backs up my claim that LT is an abstract entity -- and that is what i was trying to get at in any event.

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/6643/ltwm8.th.jpg

i thought (and still do think) that LT represents multiversal balance. (like i said, i'll continue to look for that particular bit of proof -- anyone out there recall something like that?)

but, that aside for a time, we also know that LT's faces represent 3 seperate concepts -- equity, necessity and vengeance. each face is an essentially an abstract entity. there was something interesting at marvel.com about what the faces represent and how they are manifested in each universe. this from marvel.com:



that is a pretty cool take. gives an additional meaning to each of the entities above.

anyway, my claim was that LT referred to quasar as a 'PHYSICAL' in one of mr m's many scans because LT himself was an abstract entity. as an abstract entity he would need to use an m-body to interact with physicals -- like all abstracts need to do.

in the scan above LT HIMSELF states he is an abstract entity. marvel says his faces are representations of universal aspects, and even marunapp seems to agree:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/anthropo.htm

under AFFILIATIONS, LT is listed as one of the abstract allies of anthropomorpho.

with all this, hopefully we can all agree that LT is INDEED an abstract/conceptual being. to me this also lends a great deal of support to the idea that Lt uses m-bodies to manifest in each universe in the multiverse.



what do you all think?

Living Tribunal is awesome

Originally posted by Donkey Punch
For example if something is abstract, does that means its metaphysical?

I would assume yes. Abstracts seem to embody concepts (Death, Need, Balance, Destruction etc)

Originally posted by Donkey Punch
What is an M body b.t.w., its a term i see thrown around a lot nowadays.

MBodies are the forms used by abstracts to take form or appear somewhere when they don't have time to do it themselves. They are designed by Anthopomorpho (an abstract that seems to represent either the artist or the idea of creation).

Originally posted by King Kandy
Indeed... The concept of the faces having manifestations in different reals was something LT himself reffered to when he spoke to silver Surfer.

He said on his own face, the trinity is Necessity, Equity, and Vengeance.

In the sphere of magik this corresponds to Order, The In-Betweener and Chaos.

In the Prime Universe this trinity is Eternity, Galactus, and Death.


i approve


100000%

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I would assume yes. Abstracts seem to embody concepts (Death, Need, Balance, Destruction etc)



MBodies are the forms used by abstracts to take form or appear somewhere when they don't have time to do it themselves. They are designed by Anthopomorpho (an abstract that seems to represent either the artist or the idea of creation).

Death is not a metaphysical concept though !

Originally posted by Donkey Punch
Death is not a metaphysical concept though !

Death isn't exactly physical either.

Yes one can die physically but death is more complex than that in most cultures.

Is this the kind of proof you may be are looking fore???

http://img524.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lt2cm.jpg

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Death isn't exactly physical either.

Yes one can die physically but death is more complex than that in most cultures.

Um no, what happens after death is meta physical, death itself is one of the most physical concepts there is.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
The Living Tribunal was created by the One Above All as his servant to oversee the multiverse and make sure no one universe gains too much power over others.
To oversee all Multiverses.

Yeah, Multiverse/Omniverse, etc.

LT IS Balance.

He is a watcher/guardian/punisher whom makes sure everything is in balance.

If anything tips the Multiversal scale too much he will immediately do one of two things.

1. Erase the being,moment or item from existence if it's within his power

2. Inform the entity of the multiversal problem there causing and warn them to deal with it (usually performed on entities whom are too important to erase , such as mephisto , galactus ect )

LT is TOAA herald

about the multiverse(S) thing, that's the only scan in any of LT's appearances that uses multiverse as a plural. generally, according to the writers, he watches over multiverse singular.

Originally posted by leonidas
with all this, hopefully we can all agree that LT is INDEED an abstract/conceptual being.

to me this also lends a great deal of support to the idea that Lt uses m-bodies to manifest in each universe in the multiverse.



what do you all think?

This is what I think, and Marvel apparently:


There is only one Living Tribunal according to Marvel the Company



(excerpt from the Official Marvel Handbook 2006)
http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/2196/ltty1.th.jpg
"The LT has NO Counter-Parts ... ONLY ONE LT exists in the Multiverse"





On Panel verification

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/2994/lt2cm.th.jpg
"The LT Exists in ALL Multiverses simultaneously"





"with all this, hopefully you can agree"

that there is only ONE LT,

that's in every Universe simultaneously.

so what happened to ALL the other lt manifestations when thanos absorbed him?

Originally posted by leonidas
so what happened to ALL the other lt manifestations when thanos absorbed him?

What "other" manifestations?

They are all the same LT,

LT has NO Counter-Parts.


You absorb one, you absorb all.


(excerpt from the Official Marvel Handbook 2006)
http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/2196/ltty1.th.jpg
"The LT has NO Counter-Parts ... only One LT exists in the Multiverse"

so you're saying there was NO lt present in the entire omniverse after thanos absorbed that single m-body . . .?

not something i can agree with.

i agree there is only one lt -- however, we disagree that there is only a SINGLE m-body. the SENTIENCE/partial sentience that exists WITHIN each lt m-body is the same or comes from the same overall source (in that way he HAS no counterpart, like eternity for example who's sentience is actually DIFFERENT from universe to universe) but to say it is the same m-body makes no sense. nor does it HAVE to be that way. no where does it say the same m-body, just the same lt. based on what we know of how m-bodies work, a single m-body spread throughout the omniverse makes no sense, imo.

and like any m-body, i still believe there is no need to say that each m-body is the totality of the concept -- so none of the lt m-bodies HAS to be in possession of ALL of the 'true' lt's power.

Originally posted by leonidas
so you're saying there was NO lt present in the entire omniverse after thanos absorbed that single m-body . . .?

Yes.

Originally posted by leonidas
not something i can agree with.

shrug


Originally posted by leonidas
i agree there is only one lt -- however, we disagree that there is only a SINGLE m-body.

All you need to do is show me LT in Two separate locations simultaneously,

(Not some Reflection in the D of M)

and I'll concede.


Until then,

On Panel there has never been multiple manifestations of LT.


Just because LT can manifest in every Universe simutaneously, (Off Panel)

doesn't mean he's employing M-bodiers 24/7 across the Multiverse.

LT only needs to manifest when a Reality threatens the balance, which doesn't happen every day or everywhyere for that matter.


Hence, the extreme lack of LT appearances.


Originally posted by leonidas
the SENTIENCE/partial sentience that exists WITHIN each lt m-body is the same or comes from the same overall source

I agree, every LT manifestation is the same.

I strongly disagree that it's a "partial sentience" ...


The Full Sentience and Power of LT resides within any M-body he wishes to manifest, there is absolutely NO On Panel evidence proving M-bodies come in various levels of Sentience or power.

There is only proof that M-bodies come with the Full Power of the Concept.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/anthropo.htm

"Anthro/Fractals (m-bodies)

can assume the Form of Non-Physical or Abstract beings,

these Forms have access to the Full Power of the Original Being"

Originally posted by leonidas
(he HAS no counterpart, like eternity for example who's sentience is actually DIFFERENT from universe to universe)

I agree.


Originally posted by leonidas
but to say it is the same m-body makes no sense.

To say there is more than One LT operating at a single time,

makes no sense to me either.

When Marvel clearly tells us:
Originally posted by Mr Master
(excerpt from the Official Marvel Handbook 2006)
http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/2196/ltty1.th.jpg
"The LT has NO Counter-Parts ... only One LT exists in the Multiverse"


Originally posted by leonidas
nor does it HAVE to be that way. no where does it say the same m-body, just the same lt.

It does HAVE to be that way. No where does it say different LT M-bodies are spread through out the Multiverse.


Originally posted by leonidas
based on what we know of how m-bodies work, a single m-body spread throughout the omniverse makes no sense, imo.

That's because you're looking at it as though LT has an M-body in every Universe on the clock working 24/7,

as if everyday in every Reality a Universal imbalance is taking place.


Again:

LT only needs to manifest when there is a threat to the balance of the Multiverse.


Originally posted by leonidas
and like any m-body, i still believe there is no need to say that each m-body is the totality of the concept -- so none of the lt m-bodies HAS to be in possession of ALL of the 'true' lt's power.

That's your opinion.

IMO, due to the evidence I found and read from outside sources,

like all M-bodies they possess the Full Power of the Concept they represent.

Originally posted by xmeat
LT is TOAA herald
That's actualy a pretty good metaphor.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yes.



shrug




All you need to do is show me LT in Two separate locations simultaneously,

(Not some Reflection in the D of M)

and I'll concede.


Until then,

On Panel there has never been multiple manifestations of LT.


Just because LT can manifest in every Universe simutaneously, (Off Panel)

doesn't mean he's employing M-bodiers 24/7 across the Multiverse.

LT only needs to manifest when a Reality threatens the balance, which doesn't happen every day or everywhyere for that matter.


Hence, the extreme lack of LT appearances.




I agree, every LT manifestation is the same.

I strongly disagree that it's a "partial sentience" ...


The Full Sentience and Power of LT resides within any M-body he wishes to manifest, there is absolutely NO On Panel evidence proving M-bodies come in various levels of Sentience or power.

There is only proof that M-bodies come with the Full Power of the Concept.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/anthropo.htm

"Anthro/Fractals (m-bodies)

can assume the Form of Non-Physical or Abstract beings,

these Forms have access to the Full Power of the Original Being"



I agree.




To say there is more than One LT operating at a single time,

makes no sense to me either.

When Marvel clearly tells us:





It does HAVE to be that way. No where does it say different LT M-bodies are spread through out the Multiverse.




That's because you're looking at it as though LT has an M-body in every Universe on the clock working 24/7,

as if everyday in every Reality a Universal imbalance is taking place.


Again:

LT only needs to manifest when there is a threat to the balance of the Multiverse.




That's your opinion.

IMO, due to the evidence I found and read from outside sources,

like all M-bodies they possess the Full Power of the Concept they represent.

so, hypothetically if there were 2 simultaneous instances where lt was needed, you think he'd simply . . . not appear in one? so a multiverse/universe could suffer or die because . . . lt was busy making a house call? or because an mbody of him was disrupted somehow?

as you wish.

and you think there was NO lt for a time in the omniverse?? hmmm, that also doesn't work for me.

one lt is something i completely understand and like. one MBODY makes no sense and limits this omnipotent being.

Originally posted by leonidas
so, hypothetically if there were 2 simultaneous instances where lt was needed, you think he'd simply . . . not appear in one?

Hypothetically is the proper term,

because there's never been 2 simultaneous manifestations of LT.


I won't speculate on your question.


Originally posted by leonidas
so a multiverse/universe could suffer or die because . . . lt was busy making a house call? or because an mbody of him was disrupted somehow?

Again,

LT only manifests when there is a Multiversal Imbalance.

Imbalances on a Multiversal level happen occasionally,

the chances of 2 Multiversal Imbalances taking place simultaneously are null.

I personally have Never seen it, but if you have proof, do show.


Originally posted by leonidas
as you wish.

And Marvel.


Originally posted by leonidas
and you think there was NO lt for a time in the omniverse?? hmmm, that also doesn't work for me.

You mean a single issue?


LT was absorbed in the End #6, by the end of the issue,

he's back with everything else.


Originally posted by leonidas
one lt is something i completely understand and like.

I agree.


Originally posted by leonidas
one MBODY makes no sense and limits this omnipotent being.

That's cool,

if you can show me 2 separate manifestations of LT M-bodies I'll agree.

Until then I'll stick to what I have seen and read so far.


There is only one LT,

and although he exist simultaneously everywhere Off-Panel,

Marvel has decided to only present him one M-body at a time.


Perhaps LT is a spin off of God,

Three Faces = the Trinity?

Omnipresence = Simultaneous existence in every Universe.


Would you say that God is less than the whole because he's everything everywhere?


If God is every Atom in Creation, (that would be a manifestation of every Atom)

does that mean that God's power has been divided between all the Atoms?

Or is any single Atom still the Full Power of God? hm


According to Science and Religion it's the latter, and it doesn't make sense.

It doesn't make sense because it's a Divine Concept, as opposed to a limited mind like ours attempting to comprehend an Infinite Paradox.


I believe this is what Marvel is aiming at, IMO.

i agree with you. omnipresence DOES mean everywhere simultaneously.

that would of course mean in my hypothetical question he most certainly COULD manifest in both instances even though they happened simultaneously in seperate multiverses.

and it's ALL speculation. you're speculating by comparing toaa/lt to god in OUR world, but you won't speculate on an answer to my question? meh.

and the multiverse is infinite. since you brought up real world science and religion, the fact that the multiverse is infinite means that not only is the threat of 2 multiversal level threats happening at once NOT 'null'. it is in fact a CERTAINTY.

Tribunal, schmunal...who's the babe with the wings?
Originally posted by leonidas
http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/6643/ltwm8.th.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas
i agree with you. omnipresence DOES mean everywhere simultaneously.

that would of course mean in my hypothetical question he most certainly COULD manifest in both instances even though they happened simultaneously in seperate multiverses.

Well I agree with this.

The thing is Marvel has never depicted the LT with simultaneous manifestations.


Originally posted by leonidas
and it's ALL speculation. you're speculating by comparing toaa/lt to god in OUR world, but you won't speculate on an answer to my question? meh.

Actually I was comparing their Nature of existence, not the Entities themselves.


LT is Three Aspects in one.

God is Three Aspects in one.


LT is Omnipresent.

God is Omnipresent.


Is it my fault, or Marvel's fault for the obvious comparison?


Your question could not be answered without pure speculation:
Originally posted by leonidas
so, hypothetically if there were 2 simultaneous instances where lt was needed, you think he'd simply . . . not appear in one?

I can't respond to this because it's Never happened in Marvel.

Atleast my God/LT speculation made sense, and is a fact concerning both.


Originally posted by leonidas
and the multiverse is infinite. since you brought up real world science and religion, the fact that the multiverse is infinite

"The Fact?"

I didn't know scientist had proven there is a Multiverse.


Originally posted by leonidas
means that not only is the threat of 2 multiversal level threats happening at once NOT 'null'. it is in fact a CERTAINTY.

"In fact a certainty?"

How can you say that without a shred of evidence?


It may be plausible, but it's CERTAINLY NOT a fact.

LT manifested an M-Body in the D of M.... This M-Body interacted with Quasar, and IMO unleashed Anomaly on him.

But, it was said before that these manifestations from the D of M simply play out events needlessly.


If that's true, then why would Oblivion use the D of M to manifest M-Bodies when he interacts with "physical beings"?

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u43/Galan007/th_obl.jpg

Hey Leo,good thread,
i am at work so i will post quickly, i hope i will be back to talk more

This was a writers answer for what LT does or is (Not a writer of LT just a writer for the washington post)
The manifestation of the abstraction of universal law and justice.

I would say that the what ifs are as close to LT appearing simultaneoulsly
if we take events that incur with thanos and warlock,and use the what if Surfer had the IG(etc),we can somwhat see how he has to manifest more than once,since its the same multiverse,just a thought

Could counterparts mean flip side
Eternity-Infinity
Chaos-Order
Death-Oblivion
Love-Hate
LT-no counterpart?

what does only one in the multiverse mean? and only one exist?
and does it mean that all the M-bodies of eternity and such are single entities that can act on thier own?(and have different levels of power and such) why not use multi-enternity as one also,or does he have a counterpart-Infinity

almost every link about LT and The end speculate if it was an avatar or M-bodie that was destroyed

just some food for thought

Originally posted by Galan007
LT manifested an M-Body in the D of M.... This M-Body interacted with Quasar,

So you believe that's the real LT still stuck in time presiding over Warlock's Infinity Gauntlet Trial that took place in another Comic Book over 5 Months before?

As you wish..


Originally posted by Galan007
and IMO unleashed Anomaly on him.

In Marvel's opinion the Anomaly is a D of M Guard:


(excerpt from the Official Marvel Handbook 2006)
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/1249/dmcopydt4.th.jpg
"the Abstract Entity Anomaly prevents outsiders from interfering in events

which have technically already occurred"



Originally posted by Galan007
But, it was said before that these manifestations from the D of M simply play out events needlessly.

If that's true, then why would Oblivion use the D of M to manifest M-Bodies when he interacts with "physical beings"?

Because it's NOT a Past event,

it's Oblivion using the D of M in the Present.


We're talking about the Past Reflections of events that have taken place and yet are still Replaying themselves over and over needlessly and meaninglessly.


Like this garbage:


The Beyonder in Secret Wars II: (8 Years before this issue was published)

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/929/dmee1.th.jpg




AND even more hilarious about this whole scene is that when the Cosmics came to the Beyonder they WEREN'T even in the Dimension of Manifestation,

they WERE in a RESTAURANT!

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/2361/b1xe9.th.jpg

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/483/b2fz5.th.jpg

There're still CHAIRS and TABLES there, LOL!


HOW the heck did this turn into a Dimesion of Manifestation moment?


Oh silly PIS Writers of Quasar #37 & part of #38

Originally posted by Mr Master

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/2994/lt2cm.th.jpg
"The LT Exists in ALL Multiverses simultaneously"





"with all this, hopefully you can agree"

that there is only ONE LT,

that's in every Universe simultaneously.

Originally posted by Mr Master




All you need to do is show me LT in Two separate locations simultaneously,


why would any one need to if you already claim he exist in all universes "simultaneously"

Originally posted by xjustice69x
why would any one need to if you already claim he exist in all universes "simultaneously"

Marvel claims it.

But it's an Off-Panel fact, (like something to just know)

It's never been depicted On Panel.


Although you're right,

it wouldn't make a difference cause my contention is that it's the SAME LT with the SAME Power everywhere.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Marvel claims it.

But it's an Off-Panel fact, (like something to just know)

It's never been depicted On Panel.


Although you're right,

it wouldn't make a difference cause my contention is that it's the SAME LT with the SAME Power everywhere.
this seems to contradict your previous post
what you are saying is u wont concede even if shown proof?
if so there seems no need to debate at all.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Well I agree with this.

The thing is Marvel has never depicted the LT with simultaneous manifestations.

but as logical readers not EVERYTHING needs to be in black and white or ON-PANEL.







that's all right because you DID answer it above.



no, logically speaking, it is a 100% certainty. right mindship? if you consider the notion of what an infinite number of multiverses means, you'll put it together.

and of course science didn't prove multiverses (though there IS some pretty compelling proof). i was speaking of the fact that marvel has said the omniverse is comprised of an infinite number of multiverses. and if they are speaking truthfully, then what i said is true.

Originally posted by xjustice69x
this seems to contradict your previous post

I think not.


Originally posted by xjustice69x
what you are saying is u wont concede even if shown proof?

So try and show me proof of LT being stated to manifest in portions of his totality.

Or show me proof that states that M-bodies, ANY M-body, manifests with a fraction of the totality of the Concept it represents.

Then I'll concede.

Originally posted by leonidas
but as logical readers not EVERYTHING needs to be in black and white or ON-PANEL.

LT has never been stated to manifest in portions of his Totality.

In black and white,

NO M-body has ever been stated to manifest with a fraction of their power.

To the contrary:


There is only proof that M-bodies come with the Full Power of the Concept.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/anthropo.htm

"Anthro/Fractals (m-bodies)

can assume the Form of Non-Physical or Abstract beings,

these Forms have access to the Full Power of the Original Being"

That's my argument.


Originally posted by leonidas
that's all right because you DID answer it above.

Well for the record,

There is one LT in Omniverse and he exists in all Universes simultaneously.

If it were not the SAME exact LT in all Universes,

the term "simultaneously" would not be needed.


Anyhow, LT only does manifest when there is a Mystical Imbalance that threatens the Multiverse.

And HOW often does that happen?


It's true LT is the Judge of the Omniverse, but HOW many times have you seen LT in another Multiverse carrying out his duties?


So LT doesn't need to manifest everywhere because that's not taking place everywhere at once, heck it doesn't take place in 2 Places at once, atleast NOT On Panel or in a Bio.

Originally posted by leonidas
no, logically speaking, it is a 100% certainty.

"Logically speaking"

So not with with proof?


Originally posted by leonidas
right mindship?

uhh right Marvel?

master




Originally posted by leonidas
if you consider the notion of what an infinite number of multiverses means, you'll put it together.

You put it together, I'm only concerned with what the Comics say.


Originally posted by leonidas
and of course science didn't prove multiverses (though there IS some pretty compelling proof). i was speaking of the fact that marvel has said the omniverse is comprised of an infinite number of multiverses. and if they are speaking truthfully, then what i said is true.

What you said is not exactly what Marvel said.

You're making your own theoretical assumption inspired by Marvel facts.

According to Marvel the Hierarchy doesn't even exist Outside the 616 Multiverse.


With the exception of the Post-retcon Brothers and LT, there has Never been a depiction of any Sentient Concept Outside the 616 Multiverse.

LT has Never ventured Outside the 616 Multiverse On Panel except for the time he held the Brothers in his hand, if even then, because he might of been able to materialized the Brothers into that Alternate Reality he was overseeing.


So again,

what you said is Plausible, but not definite, especially considering that we Never see LT carrying out his duties Outside the 616 Multiverse, so how can any of us know that Multiversal Imbalances are taking place Outside the Prime Multiverse? ("It's a game of numbers?" ... I'm not buying that)


I have most of the Comics that deal with Other Multiverses, there's only literally a few Titles, and the characters there are not as powerful as the over saturation of Universal destroyers in the 616 Multiverse. In fact, other than the Starbrand, I'd bet you can't find me any other significant powerhouse Out there.

Originally posted by Mindship
Tribunal, schmunal...who's the babe with the wings?

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/6643/ltwm8.th.jpg
Does anybody know?

Originally posted by Mindship
Does anybody know?
sorry about that shes called "Ereshkigal"

Originally posted by Mindship
Does anybody know?

Ereshkigal is a Deviant. She had the Star Brand and threatened the Nexus. LT was quoted, "unfettered might of the Living Tribunal"

Originally posted by guy222
Ereshkigal is a Deviant. She had the Star Brand and threatened the Nexus. LT was quoted, "unfettered might of the Living Tribunal"
Cool. Thanks.

The starbrand is a paradox,it created itself

The starbrand comes from the New Universe
Quasar Brought it back after getting stuck in the New Universe,he was given the starbrand and used it to boost the quantum bands,he was to far from our universe(multiverse?)
The Quantum bands could not get him back
on their own,so he boosted his quantum jump with the starbrand

He thought it burned itself out upon reaching home, but actually he gave it to Kayla(girlfriend)
He also retained a portion of it which allowed him to come back to life and escape the white room (made by eon for his protectors of the universe)

He used it for a couple of issues untill he got his Quantum bands back

Originally posted by Mindship
Cool. Thanks.

Your welcome

Originally posted by starlock
The starbrand is a paradox,it created itself

The starbrand comes from the New Universe
Quasar Brought it back after getting stuck in the New Universe,he was given the starbrand and used it to boost the quantum bands,he was to far from our universe(multiverse?)
The Quantum bands could not get him back
on their own,so he boosted his quantum jump with the starbrand

He thought it burned itself out upon reaching home, but actually he gave it to Kayla(girlfriend)
He also retained a portion of it which allowed him to come back to life and escape the white room (made by eon for his protectors of the universe)

He used it for a couple of issues untill he got his Quantum bands back

LT exists to judge. Granted powers by TOAA. No one has the responsibility LT has. I have always thought LT being God's son

Originally posted by Mr Master
LT has never been stated to manifest in portions of his Totality.

In black and white,

NO M-body has ever been stated to manifest with a fraction of their power.

To the contrary:


There is only proof that M-bodies come with the Full Power of the Concept.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/anthropo.htm

"Anthro/Fractals (m-bodies)

can assume the Form of Non-Physical or Abstract beings,

these Forms have access to the Full Power of the Original Being"

That's my argument.

and mine is that they do not NECESSARILY possess that full power and more that they are not NECESSARILY the totality of any concept. the anomaly physical entity twice was destroyed but the concept remained behind. eternity manifested an mbody WITH its mbody. eternity's mbody was destroyed and reformed. eternity has admitted he was a visualization, and NOT the totality. i could even show a new scan of mephisto's mbody being destroyed and shortly after HE reformed as well. we've even see lt's OWN mbody scattered across dimensions.

but that's an old argument, and i know the excuses you use to contradict each case. but . . . just because you do not accept or believe these examples does not mean i've not shown them or that others may come to a different conclusion.



agreed.



how many comics out there have stories dedicated to beings/events that take PLACE in other multiverses?



so you're saying he's omnipresent yet cannot manifest in 2 places? or you believe it because it makes sense DESPITE the lack of on-panel evidence? like me.



actually nothing i said in anyway contradicts anything that marvel says. one lt in all multiverses. i agree wholeheartedly. i see lt more as an umbrella concept that spans the omniverse. he puts parts of his supreme power in each manifested mbody within each multiverse. one over-arching entity that watches over the whole thing. what part of that contradicts what marvel says . . .?



and yet they say lt exits everywhere, so . . . what's that claim mean? your infamous scan saying he rules 'multiverses' would also contradict this.



except marvel says lt is in all multiverses, so . . . and you have your scan . . .



you've said the same thing 3 straight times. are you now saying YOU dont think lt exists throughout the omniverse?




i never once claimed it WAS definite. it's the way i understand lt based on what i've seen and read of him and mbodies in general. the thread's purpose is to allow for theories or interpretations of just what he is. simple bios (which you once frowned so much upon) are simply not sufficient -- as they so often are.



yet again? here too you seem to be impyling lt is strictly multiversal. that clearly contradicts your scan. but i wonder who has been saying that all along . . .?



it's not a game at all. if you believe marvel spoke truth about a truly infinite number of multiverses comprising the omniverse, it is a certainty that lt will need to manifest simultaneously at specific events. of course i can't show you, but it is axiomatic if you believe 2 things:

1. that lt IS omnipresent throughout the omniverse
2. that the omniverse really IS comprised of a truly infinite amount of multiverses.

if you take those 2 points as truths then it is a certainty he will need to manifest simultaneously -- whether it has, is or ever will be shown on panel. based on what marvel seems to say, i have no trouble accepting that idea.



perhaps, but again, i'm not sure what you're alluding to. and isn't the sword and amulet considered omniversal in power?

i'm not sure how this kind of spiralled into what it is. my idea of lt is a simple one:

he is an abstract that represents balance (not proven) throughout the multiverse/s and that balance is itself represented by lt's conceptual 'faces' which manifest in each universe. lt manifests as mbodies simultaneously throughout the multiverses of the omniverse. no mbody is the 'complete' lt. rather each is a representation is a singular entity (as marvel says) that watches over all. so when thanos absorbed lt in THE END, there were STILL lt's out in the other multiverses doing whatever those lt's do.

imo.

Proof of M-bodies levels of power?
In my opinon it is explained in Quasar #37

Anthromorpho tells Qusasar that"WE have a symbiotic relationship with the abstract beings.An exchange of energies"
If galactus has them and Quasar was offered one?
is every M-body the same? no i dont think so

Anthromorpho tells quasar"We give our newborns the finite beings to practice on,before they are allowed to manifest Abstract Beings,The skill and experience of the particular Manifester determines how well the entity is represented

Now if galactus has an m-body take his place at an event, does the M-bodiy have all of galactus's power?will the real Galactus be destroyed if the M-body is?

Quasar says" how much input does a being have with how they are represented?

Anthro says"it varies, as much as they want",
some entities have very specific requirements,others give us freer reign'
"Frequently we form the Manifestation-body to the mental image of the Beholder"

Abstacts have no body,the image comes from us

preaching to the choir, star.

Anthromorpho also said"Certain powerfull Phyical Entities
also enlist our services so they may be able to put in an appearence somwhere without actually attending"



Maybe the Abstract has no vested energy in a M-body just in case of trouble?
Why is quasar offered a m-body? Why are they making a Galactus m-body in front of quasar?
Would They just stay in the Dimension of manifestation and control it? while in a matrix like upload where they cant move or act?
If at an event and attacked would the m-bodies do nothing but just look like what they represent?
would they be all of his power/soul/mind/etc

i think when an M-body is created,it is up to the Entity(abstract) to determine how much of anything it will conatain,and it is up to the M-bdies skill and experience that determines how well they are represented.

That means M-bodies of a Abstract or Finite Being vary in power

Nowhere is it stated that Abstacts must put their total essence into an M-body
Just my opinon

Originally posted by leonidas
and mine is that they do not NECESSARILY possess that full power and more that they are not NECESSARILY the totality of any concept.

Well then, we'll agree to disagree.


Originally posted by leonidas
the anomaly physical entity twice was destroyed but the concept remained behind.

The Anomaly is a special case, it's bio is different than all the other Abstracts, I told you this before and showed you too. It is the only Concept stated to be completely indestructible, perhaps it's name speaks for itself,

the "Anomaly" = like NO Other.


The Anomaly was only killed once by Maelstrom, the Concept remained but killing the M-body made the Sentience obselete and Maelstrom was able to usurp it's position.

The second time Anomaly was never killed, just defeated by Quasar by confusing Anomaly, the Anomaly M-body dissipated on it's own, no one killed it again.


Originally posted by leonidas
eternity manifested an mbody WITH its mbody.

You mean the artist's visualization of Eternity's/Infinity's Sentience being freed?


Originally posted by leonidas
eternity's mbody was destroyed and reformed.

You mean when Eternity himself said,

"indeed ... Nothing happened?"


Originally posted by leonidas
eternity has admitted he was a visualization, and NOT the totality.

Actually Eternity said,

"If this were not a visualization of my Totality"


So in fact it IS his Totality, but a visualization of it. (whatever that means)

Eternity was lying within that paragraph anyway, he said the IG would not affect him, after Thanos Owned him and became the actual Totality of the Universe.


Originally posted by leonidas
we've even see lt's OWN mbody scattered across dimensions.

I've never seen LT's M-body scattered across anything.

Reed's Canon only blasted the LT himself to another Dimension.

There was NO mention of his body being blown apart or scattered.


Originally posted by leonidas
but that's an old argument, and i know the excuses you use to contradict each case. but . . . just because you do not accept or believe these examples does not mean i've not shown them or that others may come to a different conclusion.

Fair enuff.


Originally posted by leonidas
how many comics out there have stories dedicated to beings/events that take PLACE in other multiverses?

Very few.


Originally posted by leonidas
so you're saying he's omnipresent yet cannot manifest in 2 places? or you believe it because it makes sense DESPITE the lack of on-panel evidence? like me.

He can manifest in 2 - 3 or more places I'm sure,

but in his Totality, where ever he does, IMO.


Originally posted by leonidas
actually nothing i said in anyway contradicts anything that marvel says. one lt in all multiverses. i agree wholeheartedly.




Originally posted by leonidas
i see lt more as an umbrella concept that spans the omniverse. he puts parts of his supreme power in each manifested mbody within each multiverse. one over-arching entity that watches over the whole thing. what part of that contradicts what marvel says . . .?

With the exception of the first sentence,

this whole paragraph contradicts Marvel and even adds theories to the facts.

According to Marvel there is one LT that simultaneously can manifest in every Universe,

NO mention of LT manifesting "parts of his power" ... (On Panel or in a Bio)

NO mention of some "over-arching entity that watches the whole thing"

(On Panel or in a Bio)


Originally posted by leonidas
and yet they say lt exits everywhere, so . . . what's that claim mean? your infamous scan saying he rules 'multiverses' would also contradict this.

No it does not,

there is NO Hierarchy outside the 616 Multiverse, period.

LT is the Judge of the Omniverse, but whatever his duty Outside the Prime Multiverse is, has nothing to do with Other Sentient Concepts, because according to Marvel there are none.

The Brothers, that's it.


Originally posted by leonidas
except marvel says lt is in all multiverses, so . . . and you have your scan

I'm not disputing that,

I'm just informing you that there are NO other Multi-Eternitys, or any of the lower Concepts Outside the 616 Multiverse.


Originally posted by leonidas
you've said the same thing 3 straight times. are you now saying YOU dont think lt exists throughout the omniverse?

I never said that, so how you figure that assessment?

What I said 3 times doesn't even remotely hint at that, especially when I clearly posted this:
Originally posted by Mr Master
With the exception of the Post-retcon Brothers and LT, there has Never been a depiction of any Sentient Concept Outside the 616 Multiverse.


Originally posted by leonidas
i never once claimed it WAS definite. it's the way i understand lt based on what i've seen and read of him and mbodies in general. the thread's purpose is to allow for theories or interpretations of just what he is.

Fair enuff.


Originally posted by leonidas
simple bios (which you once frowned so much upon) are simply not sufficient -- as they so often are.

Good thing I display On Panel PROOF and Bio's that back up my interpretation.

Making it sufficient.


Originally posted by leonidas
yet again? here too you seem to be impyling lt is strictly multiversal. that clearly contradicts your scan. but i wonder who has been saying that all along . . .?

You getting off track,

I reiterated my self in a way to dispute your claim that it was a 100% "Certainty" LT is dealing with Multiversal Imbalances Outside the 616 Multiverse,

and I was right, you will never be able to present proof of LT manifesting Outside the Prime Multiverse.

That was my contention.


Originally posted by leonidas
it's not a game at all. if you believe marvel spoke truth about a truly infinite number of multiverses comprising the omniverse, it is a certainty that lt will need to manifest simultaneously at specific events. of course i can't show you, but it is axiomatic if you believe 2 things:
1. that lt IS omnipresent throughout the omniverse
2. that the omniverse really IS comprised of a truly infinite amount of multiverses.
if you take those 2 points as truths then it is a certainty he will need to manifest simultaneously -- whether it has, is or ever will be shown on panel. based on what marvel seems to say, i have no trouble accepting that idea.

Again,

plausible,

definite?

Never.


Originally posted by leonidas
perhaps, but again, i'm not sure what you're alluding to. and isn't the sword and amulet considered omniversal in power?

And?

Otherworld is Outside the 616 Reality but within the Multiverse.


Originally posted by leonidas
i'm not sure how this kind of spiralled into what it is. my idea of lt is a simple one:

he is an abstract that represents balance (not proven) throughout the multiverse/s and that balance is itself represented by lt's conceptual 'faces' which manifest in each universe. lt manifests as mbodies simultaneously throughout the multiverses of the omniverse.

I agree.


Originally posted by leonidas
no mbody is the 'complete' lt. rather each is a representation is a singular entity (as marvel says) that watches over all. so when thanos absorbed lt in THE END, there were STILL lt's out in the other multiverses doing whatever those lt's do.

imo.

I disagree.

edit

Originally posted by Mr Master
You getting off track,

I reiterated my self in a way to dispute your claim that it was a 100% "Certainty" LT is dealing with Multiversal Imbalances Outside the 616 Multiverse,

and I was right, you will never be able to present proof of LT manifesting Outside the Prime Multiverse.

That was my contention.

with no stories, it's kinda hard to get proof. i can't prove 2+2=4 outside the prime multiverse either, but i'd say it was. if it wasn't than there's no point in having any discussion about it. however, based on what we've SEEN of other multiverses -- new universe, ultraverse -- i see no reason to think 2+2 would NOT equal 4.

but i've no problem limiting lt to the prime multiverse since there is no evidence to speak of in terms of his appearances outside the multiverse. imo omnipresent also means he is present within each version of eternity within our multiverse.

all my above points still stand even within the frame of a multiverse and not an omniverse. ie -- even though thanos absorbed one lt mbody, there would still be other lt mbodies throughout our multiverse as well as the omniverse.

you disagree. others don't and others think something else entirely. makes the forum go round.

ps--you say my idea contradicts what marvel says. where does it say anywhere on panel that lt uses m-bodies? it doesn't -- at least not that i know of. it says ONE lt, not one mbody. yet we both came to the conclusion he DOES use mbodies based not on anything directly stated, but based on the notion he is an abstract and based on what we've seen and read. you accept 'one' theory, but reject another. that's fine, but don't sound like you are STRICTLY going by what on-panel proof says. unless you have on-panel proof that lt DOES use m-bodies . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
with no stories, it's kinda hard to get proof. i can't prove 2+2=4 outside the prime multiverse either, but i'd say it was. if it wasn't than there's no point in having any discussion about it. however, based on what we've SEEN of other multiverses -- new universe, ultraverse -- i see no reason to think 2+2 would NOT equal 4.

Actually in many places it's quite different indeed, especially outside the Multiverse, even more especially to the type of Life Forms the Living Tribunal deals with outside the Prime Multiverse.


Originally posted by leonidas
but i've no problem limiting lt to the prime multiverse since there is no evidence to speak of in terms of his appearances outside the multiverse.

I found something of interest, On Panel.


While Dr Strange is explaining the nature of the Multiverse, (or a "Cluster" of Universes) he tells us the Living Tribunal appears to life forms in,

"Other Shapes to Administer to Other Clusters" (Multiverses)

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/6293/lt0xx0.th.jpg
"Man's Universe (Multiverse) has it's own Infinite number of variants known as Alternate Universes, explored by the Watchers, (the Watchers explore the Multiverse)

All these variants share the same Three Spatial Dimensions and obey roughly the same Laws"






I also discovered On Panel,

that the Sentient Concepts in the 616 Multiverse exist No where else,

Outside the Multiverse the LT oversees Concepts that are inconceivable to Mankind, and they are Not anything like Eternity and the Abstracts in the Prime Multiverse, so the Bio was right about the 616 Hierarchy, it's the only one in the Omniverse.

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8577/ltkz7.th.jpg

"There are Universes whose number of Spatial Dimensions range between 2.7 etc and 6.2 etc, these all share a commonality of Concepts,

hence they are grouped into a Cluster, (a Multiverse)

Man's Cluster is One of the responsibilities of the Living Tribunal"






Here we are told there are Higher and Lower Universes within Other Multiverses with fewer Spatial Dimensions or more Spatial Dimensions that are,

"Truly different"

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/1401/lt1wo0.th.jpg
"even there Life exists, in Forms totally inconceivable to mankind"

"There the Living Tribunal takes Other Shapes

to Administer to Other Clusters" (Multiverses)




I skimmed through my entire collection of the New Universe series, LT didn't make a single appearance, there was never even a Universal threat, no being can destroy the Universe,

In the Ultraverse collection I found the Godwheel (which is a good thing) and Nemesis, nothing more that can potentially threaten the Universe.


I think these scans show us that LT operates Oustside the Multiverse Off Panel because he associates with life forms that cannot be placed in a story.

Heck, he doesn't even look like the LT Out there.


Originally posted by leonidas
imo omnipresent also means he is present within each version of eternity within our multiverse.

I agree.

And I agree that if LT were to manifest in multiple locations he would logically need more than one M-body, but IMO he still maintains all his power even in multiple simultaneous manifestations.

I believe it's the nature of the character, like the "God" comparison.

I didn't want to bring in that analogy, but we can't deny that LT is a spin off of the christian "God" ... to a point of course.


Originally posted by leonidas
all my above points still stand even within the frame of a multiverse and not an omniverse. ie -- even though thanos absorbed one lt mbody, there would still be other lt mbodies throughout our multiverse as well as the omniverse.

you disagree. others don't and others think something else entirely. makes the forum go round.

Other agree too.


Originally posted by leonidas
ps--you say my idea contradicts what marvel says. where does it say anywhere on panel that lt uses m-bodies? it doesn't -- at least not that i know of.

The Bio states LT uses an M-body to manifest.


Originally posted by leonidas
it says ONE lt, not one mbody. yet we both came to the conclusion he DOES use mbodies based not on anything directly stated, but based on the notion he is an abstract and based on what we've seen and read. you accept 'one' theory, but reject another. that's fine, but don't sound like you are STRICTLY going by what on-panel proof says. unless you have on-panel proof that lt DOES use m-bodies . . .

Not On Panel proof ...but Proof nontheless.

This made me agree with you further about LT's Abstracthood.


(excerpt from the Official Handbook 2006)
http://img469.imageshack.us/img469/2825/ab1on8.th.jpg
"Abstract beings who have empolyed M-bodies include"



..... "The Living Tribunal" .....
http://img469.imageshack.us/img469/6002/ab2hu0.th.jpg

it's funny -- i looked through that very dr strange issue you scanned just yesterday!

i didn't think there was really anything relevent in it though. it also had a rather . . . odd take on how everything was set up.

anyhow, i never said the bio was wrong about the hierarchy. clearly there is no eternity in the new universe or ultraverse so naturally the hierarchy is different. but the nature of the multiverse/s it/themselves was never the issue -- rather it was the infinite number of them REGARDLESS of their nature.

it's kinda cool lt appears different to different beings (galactus does the same) but, i'm still not too sure what your scans are showing/refuting/claiming. aside from showing a couple little tidbits others may not have seen/known about LT.



that is a completely fair assessment and i don't think your analogy is necessarily incorrect. it's difficult to prove OR refute. you may well be right. logically it doesn't work but if you fall back on 'it's his nature as a unique being' it doesn't have to. it's a totally fair stance to take.

i think in this case we agree a lot more than we disagree. as a being who is NOT omnipotent (but rather serves one who is) i still can't see how LT can be omnipresent and yet have each mbody composed of his 'total' power, but i can't say i don't like your stance on lt's nature which in your mind allows for it.