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I think this is a closer fight than the last one. Also, these 2 guys are very close in age.
Who will win on this one?

Obi-Wan.

Qui-Gon owns him.

Originally posted by allfg
Qui-Gon owns him.

No.

Qui-Gon was clearly less effected by age then Obi-Wan and i think he is a better swordsman, Obi-Wan is probably a little stronger with the Force, but i think Qui-Gon would win after a hard battle, but i am holding my vote for now, if Obis victory is proven.

Ben.

haha, I see this one is much closer than the last one

PS: 60 years old vs 57 years old...

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Qui-Gon was clearly less effected by age then Obi-Wan and i think he is a better swordsman, Obi-Wan is probably a little stronger with the Force, but i think Qui-Gon would win after a hard battle, but i am holding my vote for now, if Obis victory is proven.

Where does it say that Obi's skill was deteriorated of old age? Sorry If I don't know, I am not knowledged unlike some people in Star Wars. Qui-Gon's form is Ataru yes? I read somewhere that Ataru sucks during prolong battles, and guess what? Obi's soresu was meant for it. We saw what Ataru did for Qui-Gon, it gave him a nice hole in his chest/stomach.

Obi-Wan is familiar with Ataru and probably note it against Qui-Gon while fighting with Soresu. Ataru is too much offensive form and could be countered with soresu, so I think Obi got this with lightsaber. Don't know about force though.

I would like to add that Obi holded his own against Vader till he decided to die, and Vader would murder Qui-Gon.

Yoda is also a Ataru user and look how god he is, just because he used Ataru doesn't mean that is the main reason he died because of it, Maul was just better.
Qui-Gon is familiar with Soreusu also,i think i read somewhere that Soreusu is the most common form, in the time of PT, because most of the enemies that the Jedi fight at this time have blasters, but i am not 100% sure. And ROTS is his peak in lightsaber skill.

"You still have your skill, but your power fades."

-Vader to Kenobi in the Episode IV Novel.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
"You still have your skill, but your power fades."

-Vader to Kenobi in the Episode IV Novel.

That's enough for me. I'm off.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
"You still have your skill, but your power fades."

-Vader to Kenobi in the Episode IV Novel.

But that is characters opinion, not a statement from the writer.

Vader know him pretty well... And there are nothing that tell us otherway.

I am with Qui-Gon.

I am with Qui-Gon to, i am just saying that ANH Kenobi isn't that weak.

This is pretty close but I tend to lean towards Kenobi. Their both pretty much the same age but Kenobi was stronger in his day and was able to match Vader in their duel until he gave up. His saber mastery also seems to be greater, taking out Doctor Evasan and Ponda Boba both in about half a second.


Maybe Qui-Gon was a little less effected but he'd still tire before Kenobi does as he sues Ataru, the least energy efficient form, while Kenobi uses Soresu, the most energy efficient form. And as Kenobi took out two deadly men in around 1/2 a second with his saber and also matched Vader I'd say he's *slightly* above Jinn is with a blade.




This begs for proof.




Merely a taunt. The movie shows them being equal or near equal. Plus "your power fades" merely implies that Kenobi's power is decreasing, and in no way makes him weak.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Their both pretty much the same age...60 vs 57 years old.

Originally posted by Black Dalek
Where does it say that Obi's skill was deteriorated of old age? Sorry If I don't know, I am not knowledged unlike some people in Star Wars. Qui-Gon's form is Ataru yes? I read somewhere that Ataru sucks during prolong battles, and guess what? Obi's soresu was meant for it. We saw what Ataru did for Qui-Gon, it gave him a nice hole in his chest/stomach.

Obi-Wan is familiar with Ataru and probably note it against Qui-Gon while fighting with Soresu. Ataru is too much offensive form and could be countered with soresu, so I think Obi got this with lightsaber. Don't know about force though.

I would like to add that Obi holded his own against Vader till he decided to die, and Vader would murder Qui-Gon.

Sorry man, but do you really think Obi-Wan was improving his saber skills in Tatooine for 20 yrs? I think he hardly used it against a real opponent, and 20 yrs without practising might very well take you the hell out of practice. Yes, he still has the skills, but NOT enough practice. His Force powers might've increased quite a lot, but his saber skill, on the contrary.

Originally posted by Riverollv
Sorry man, but do you really think Obi-Wan was improving his saber skills in Tatooine for 20 yrs? I think he hardly used it against a real opponent, and 20 yrs without practising might very well take you the hell out of practice. Yes, he still has the skills, but NOT enough practice. His Force powers might've increased quite a lot, but his saber skill, on the contrary.

He held his own against Vader till he decided to give up

Originally posted by Black Dalek
He held his own against Vader till he decided to give up Yes, I agree that Vader's saber skill isn't much better than Ben's.
PS: Then how can Sidious keep up his saber skills while he seldom(or never)practice it?

Originally posted by vader11
Yes, I agree that Vader's saber skill isn't much better than Ben's.
PS: Then how can Sidious keep up his saber skills while he seldom(or never)practice it?
Maybe Sidious did practice, come to think of it, maybe Kenobi did, too. I mean, where does it say that he didn't, I'm not syaing he got better since ROTS or anything cause he obviously got a little weaker with a blade since ROTS but where does it say that he never trained with a blade?

Originally posted by darthsith19
This begs for proof.

Well, the Jedi Order had thousands of Jedi i think about 10000 as stated in Cloak Of Deception and there had to be allot of Soreusu masters, because most enemies the Jedi faced, had lightsabers as weapon and you don't think that Qui-Gon would practice with some of them in sparing matches, true no one was as good as Kenobi is, but i think he is familiar with the form.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Well, the Jedi Order had thousands of Jedi i think about 10000 as stated in Cloak Of Deception and there had to be allot of Soreusu masters, because most enemies the Jedi faced, had lightsabers as weapon and you don't think that Qui-Gon would practice with some of them in sparing matches, true no one was as good as Kenobi is, but i think he is familiar with the form.
Yup, ten thousand Jedi as of TPM. Yes, I have also heard that Soresu is the most common form, which means that more Jedi used Soresu than used any other form. This in no way means that Jinn knew Soresu, as he was at Ataru Master, people rarely master or learn more than one form as there's not really a need to. So your just speculating and have no proof. So your point is moot.

Completely off topic:

Was the Jedi Order down to around 7,500 members when Palpatine issued Order 66?

Originally posted by Council#13
Completely off topic:

Was the Jedi Order down to around 7,500 members when Palpatine issued Order 66?
Unknown, though personally I'd guess less.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yup, ten thousand Jedi as of TPM. Yes, I have also heard that Soresu is the most common form, which means that more Jedi used Soresu than used any other form. This in no way means that Jinn knew Soresu, as he was at Ataru Master, people rarely master or learn more than one form as there's not really a need to. So your just speculating and have no proof. So your point is moot.

I never said that Qui-Gon mastered Soreusu, but he was probably familiar with it, while sparing with other Soresu practitioners, it is not an unknown form to him, he knows what to except, it is not like he never
seen Soresu.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
I never said that Qui-Gon mastered Soreusu, but he was probably familiar with it, while sparing with other Soresu practitioners, it is not an unknown form to him, he knows what to except, it is not like he never
seen Soresu.
You have no proof at ALL that he ever, even once in his life, used Soresu. No proof that he ever sparred with a Soresu Practitioner, though he likely has, but that still doesn't mean that he knows how to use Soresu. But having fought a Soresu Practitioner before doesn't give him the advantage in this fight, as Kenobi has likely fought against Ataru Practitioners before and he even used Ataru as his main form until the age of 25 so he will know a lot more about Ataru then Jinn will know about Soresu. Kenobi has also been known to use bits of Ataru, Shii-Cho, Niman and Sokan while using Soresu.

I never said that he used Soresu, i just said that it isn't an unknown, he probably knows how Soresu practitioners fight, from his sparing matches with them(com on, that he never faced a Soresu practitioner is ridicules) and YES Obi-Wan has a small advantage.

ANH Kenobi was weak when he fought Vader, thats why he gave his life, so ANH Luke could become a Jedi. TPM Obi-Wan is a far better combatant than "Old Ben" Kenobi so I would say that Qui-Gon wins.

He gave up his life to sacrificed himself and to become a Force spirit, to better guide Luke.

Based solely on the films I would say Qui Gon would win.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
He gave up his life to sacrificed himself and to become a Force spirit, to better guide Luke.

Agreed

Yet he would've lost anyway.

That was meant to me right, i agree that Kenobi would lose to Vader anyway, i just said that he isn't weak and why he left Vader to strike him.

I think Vader is better than Ben, but not much.

I don't know, i think he is better by some margin and Vader used and fought constantly, while Kenobi didn't.

Vader is better than Ben in saber by some margin, but not in the force(maybe a little)...

Agreed

But when you think about it, what did ANH Kenobi ever do with the Force, except becoming a Force ghost, but that has no value in battle, we haven't seen anything from him, do we know how good he is with the Force in personal combat.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
But when you think about it, what did ANH Kenobi ever do with the Force, except becoming a Force ghost, but that has no value in battle, we haven't seen anything from him, do we know how good he is with the Force in personal combat. We don't know from the movie. But he has possibly become much more powerful in the force...

Butt, there is also nothing in the EU, Vader is bad in the movies to, but in EU he is very good, there is nothing from ANH Kenobi, or some years before ANH, from the EU, at least i haven read anything.

Most people seems bad in the movies, so Ben may probably quite good actually...

I think he is very good, not in the same league as Vader, but still very, very good.

So he is probably very good in the force

Yup.

close, but Ben takes it.

Qui-Gonn wins here. ANH Kenobi was old very feeble when he fought and lost to Vader. At this point Qui-Gon is the better fighter and should win.

Originally posted by LORDSIDIOUS01
Qui-Gonn wins here. ANH Kenobi was old very feeble when he fought and lost to Vader. At this point Qui-Gon is the better fighter and should win.
Actually, George Lucas, who is the absolute highest source of canon, far ahead of you, even if you are a genius who reads up on his Star Wars stuff before posting ( ), and he calls Old Ben a "Powerful Warrior." Which is the opposite of feeble. So even if you still think that Qui-Gon would win, you can't go around calling Old Ben weak, cause the highest source of canon contradicts you.

Originally posted by LORDSIDIOUS01
Qui-Gonn wins here. ANH Kenobi was old very feeble when he fought and lost to Vader. At this point Qui-Gon is the better fighter and should win.

Well, apart from what DarthSith19 said, Kenobi purposely lost the fight to Vader.

But that in no means that he could have won.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Actually, George Lucas, who is the absolute highest source of canon, far ahead of you, even if you are a genius who reads up on his Star Wars stuff before posting ( ), and he calls Old Ben a "Powerful Warrior." Which is the opposite of feeble. So even if you still think that Qui-Gon would win, you can't go around calling Old Ben weak, cause the highest source of canon contradicts you.

He also said that no one in the OT can compete with a PT warrior, so there that goes.

Originally posted by Council#13
Well, apart from what DarthSith19 said, Kenobi purposely lost the fight to Vader.
Indeed, and Vader would have beaten Qui-Gon as well.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
He also said that no one in the OT can compete with a PT warrior, so there that goes.
Well, yeah, but that's clearly wrong, else TPM Kenobi could beat ROTJ Sidious. The other quote still holds water.

Sidious wasn't a duelist in the OT, and you can't say that anything Lucas says is wrong. He is the end all be all of Star Wars.

That's true, but that only works with objective facts, not with subjective points of view.

Not subjective at all. You can say its playing with the semantics of the statement, but clearly, as he never once 'dueled', he was not an OT duelist. As you yourself have argued many times, not one duelist in the OT can contend with or beat a PT duelist. QGJ was a PT duelist, ANH Ben is not. Ben is also to whom he was referring when said statement was made.

Alright then, I will admit that the quote is accurate and will go by it once everyone one of the Vader fanboys/Dooku haters in the Dooku vs. Vader thread concedes and admits that Dooku would beat Vader. Okay?

Thats different, lol.

Lol, how so?

Lets see you talk your way out of this one Subjekt.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
But that in no means that he could have won.

I never said he could have won.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Lol, how so?

Good one dartssith, but knowing Subjekt, he will come up with something, something very good.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Good one dartssith, but knowing Subjekt, he will come up with something, something very good.

Uh, joke post?

He cannot counter the argument due to the fact that George Lucas supposedly said "no one in the OT can compete with a PT warrior", and considering Darth Vader was an avid combatant in the OT, it's thusly impossible, as there's no wiggle room in said statement.

Although, I'd like to even see the source of which that originated from, since I'm lead to think you're misinterpreting "we don't see true Jedi fighting in the original trilogy" as every Jedi or Sith in the prequel movies can take characters x and y in the OT.

It was a joke and i don't think every character in the PT can take every in the OT, as a mater of fact, no one from the PT can take Sidious from the OT in the Force.

Did you just figure that out now?

What, when did i ever say that someone could take ROTJ Sidous in the Force, i knew that before. Your a real nut breaker, you know that.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
It was a joke.

Yea, it was a joke, i didn't mean it. Just joking.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
It was a joke and i don't think every character in the PT can take every in the OT, as a mater of fact, no one from the PT can take Sidious from the OT in the Force. No one from both PT & OT can take Sidious from the OT in the Force.

Thats what i said already, why did you just say, the same thing as i did.

You said no one from the PT can take Sidious from the OT in the Force. I add OT too

Ohhhhhhh, my bad, soryyyyyyyyyyy.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Lol, how so?

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Lets see you talk your way out of this one Subjekt.

Honestly? Because a stronger case can be made for Vader than for OB1. The very attribute that helped him wtfpwn Dooku have only increased, or at the very least stayed the same. He's even stronger now, and still uses Djem So but now modified to suit his needs and make it a more effective form for him. Other than that...cause I said so.

Originally posted by Advent
Uh, joke post?

He cannot counter the argument due to the fact that George Lucas supposedly said "no one in the OT can compete with a PT warrior", and considering Darth Vader was an avid combatant in the OT, it's thusly impossible, as there's no wiggle room in said statement.

Although, I'd like to even see the source of which that originated from, since I'm lead to think you're misinterpreting "we don't see true Jedi fighting in the original trilogy" as every Jedi or Sith in the prequel movies can take characters x and y in the OT.

To be honest, I've never directly heard that statement made, rather just from the self proclaimed "uber debaters" on these boards. I've heard the statement that "we see how the Jedi were supposed to fight", but honestly, I just used that as a quick means to stop talking about it, due to too busy a schedule to reply in depth. To me, I think it's absurd to entertain the thought that Ben can beat QGJ in a duel, if nothing else, based solely on when we've seen. But being that I have kids and other "responsibilities" I can't just go blow my money on every piece of star wars literature and/or game that exists, just so I can be an "Uber debater" here at wonderful KMC. So yea, I was saying that out of laziness...sue me....

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Honestly? Because a stronger case can be made for Vader than for OB1. The very attribute that helped him wtfpwn Dooku have only increased, or at the very least stayed the same. He's even stronger now, and still uses Djem So but now modified to suit his needs and make it a more effective form for him. Other than that...cause I said so.

Uhhhhh, good one, just as i said.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Honestly? Because a stronger case can be made for Vader than for OB1.

That's entirely irrelevant, let's assume for the sake of the argument that the quote was really stated by George Lucas. Since you made clear exactly what he said, there would be no way to say that Darth Vader is more powerful than Count Dooku, since "no one in the OT can compete with a PT warrior".

Even though the quote doesn't exist, you'd still be wrong if it did since it would've came from the utmost, highest source of canon, George Lucas himself.



That's just not true. Not only has his skill diminished to the point where it's described as "severely hampering", but his speed isn't nearly up to par with what he had been during the RotS duel. So, that's a rather flawed conclusion to come to.



Okay.

Originally posted by Advent
That's entirely irrelevant, let's assume for the sake of the argument that the quote was really stated by George Lucas. Since you made clear exactly what he said, there would be no way to say that Darth Vader is more powerful than Count Dooku, since "no one in the OT can compete with a PT warrior". If it wasn't clear by the end of the statement, I was kidding overall, although I do believe that Vader would win. However, as I'm sure someone of your intelligence can read (no sarcasm) you will see that I said i never directly heard the quote, and posted it out of sheer laziness, and I am also quite aware that if that quote did exist, any and all attempts to argue that point would be futile and would be going against canon.

Originally posted by Advent
Even though the quote doesn't exist, you'd still be wrong if it did since it would've came from the utmost, highest source of canon, George Lucas himself. Yea, i addressed this above. I'm aware of the canon rules.



Originally posted by Advent
That's just not true. Not only has his skill diminished to the point where it's described as "severely hampering", but his speed isn't nearly up to par with what he had been during the RotS duel. So, that's a rather flawed conclusion to come to.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but speed wasn't mentioned as a factor in his victory over Dooku was it? His strength combined with his form and raw power were attributing factors. Strength increased, form modified to make up for immobility and lost agility. Was it his skill or power that was described as "severely hampering?" I'm quite aware that his power levels and mobility were reduced, I was not, however, aware of the "severe;y hampering" quote. Not to say i don't believe you, cause i see no reason why you would lie, I just never came across that.


Originally posted by Advent
Okay. You won't get much honey, the kids have it all!

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
If it wasn't clear by the end of the statement, I was kidding overall

Sorry, I don't have my joke sensor equipped.



I know, hence why I said 'for the sake of the argument'. In other words, it's not necessarily meaning that the quote is correct, or anything of the sort, but what you say right below this...



...here.



I always do.



"That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster."

I don't see why it would even have to be noted, considering speed plays a substantial role in all duels. It's rather asinine to say that his quickness, which allowed him to overwhelm Count Dooku in conjuncture with his physical strength, and skill, wouldn't have been a deciding factor.



His lightsaber dueling ability.

I really don't see your logic possessing any sort of viable reasoning behind it. Yes, Darth Vader can beat Count Dooku, despite the fact his prowess has been lessened to an apparently great extent.

It's pretty stupid, to say the least.



Well, you are now.



"In other words, the skill and power that Anakin shows as a young man is greater than what we see in the classic films. As Vader, Anakin is more machine than man, and being a half-droid construct has severely hampered his lightsaber prowess." (Star Wars Q & A, Episode VI Lore, Why did Luke beat Vader?).

no, it was more his power and the book emphasized his stamina, unlimited force reserves, it said it took everything Dooku had just to block the swings they were so powerful, and he kept getting stronger, while Dooku was tired.

I was more curious than anything, and I know if there's info out there that I may not have access to (or even know where to find it) you can typically provide it. It's all good , ma, like i said, i was curious about the quotes and to what they referred, not trying to argue with you.

Originally posted by kiddo44
no, it was more his power and the book emphasized his stamina, unlimited force reserves, it said it took everything Dooku had just to block the swings they were so powerful, and he kept getting stronger, while Dooku was tired.

Seriously, what don't you people get in how speed plays a considerable element in not only that duel, but every duel? It isn't mentioned, therefore it wasn't a factor? That type of logic is just dumb, for lack of a better word.

In general (not addressed to anyone in particular), it's not logical to assume that Darth Vader can take down Count Dooku as he had done in RotS due to the fact his qualities were reduced. He's not as skillful, not as quick, nor as agile, ergo it's completely fallacious to state such things.

Because while important, it's not a deciding factor. Yoda was alot faster than Dooku and Anakin, and couldn't get the job done in twice the time it took Anakin to kill him. You can be strong without being fast and fast without being strong. If he was overpowered, then that's not directly linked to his speed. The statement that said something along the lines of "every block aged him a decade" is testament to the strength behind the blows, not the speed.

I don't recall anyone saying that Vader would beat him as fast as Anakin did, unless said in jest. I just happen to be of the opinion that Vader would win if he could avoid contact with lightning.

Speed is not the most important thing, who was faster Dooku or Maul? Who would win the duel? Yes speed is good to have but just b/c somebody is faster does not mean they win the duel.

Originally posted by kiddo44
Speed is not the most important thing, who was faster Dooku or Maul? Who would win the duel? Yes speed is good to have but just b/c somebody is faster does not mean they win the duel.

Do you know how to grasp basic English? If you don't here's what I said:

Originally posted by Advent
Seriously, what don't you people get in how speed plays a considerable element in not only that duel, but every duel?

Now, explain to me where I implied or stated speed as a stand alone attribute would win a confrontation? Oh? What's that? I didn't?

A 'considerable element' only means that its influental, but not the only thing that matters. Yeah, so next time, don't take my sentences out of context, kid.

im not trying to argue Vader could could beat Anakin, but if Vader lost its not b/c of lack of speed, thats all i was saying. Its not that hard to understand.

Originally posted by kiddo44
im not trying to argue Vader could could beat Anakin, but if Vader lost its not b/c of lack of speed, thats all i was saying. Its not that hard to understand.

Considering you were replying to me referring to the fact that speed itself plays a substantial role (in general), how does your reply so much as allude to anything like what you are saying now? What you made a response to had absolutely nothing to do with Vader versus Anakin in a fight, so try again, slugger.

And no, what you said was essentially that speed isn't the determining factor. Now, I didn't say, and you took what I said out of context due to your inability to properly comprehend sentences.

And really, save the 'its not that hard to understand' comment for your own self.

Sorry for the necromancy, but:

According to Obi Wan in the ANH Novel, he has become more powerful since ROTS. In the NEC it says that he has been busy helping other Jedi, and staying combat ready. According to Lucas, he is more powerful than Yoda at the time of ANH.

My vote goes to Old Ben.

I think Ben may win.

But, does it say anything about his saber skill, because i think ROTS is his peak in saber combat. But if the novel says its not, i will concede the argument.