An Atheistic Revelation

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Lord Urizen
I've spent some time with my freinds and family, but in such a manner that I have not before considered...


And in doing so, I learned that when I insult God, or insult a religion, or make sensationalist claims based on anger, personal bias, and lack of reason to beleive, that I only hurt the people I care about, and weaken my own power.



I recently spoke to my best freind. She is Polish Catholic, we went to High School together, we went to Prom together. She used to have a crush on me, and in senior year of High School she found out I liked guys...but she over looked it, and we still remained the best of freinds.


I would always debate her about the existance of God, and how I felt Christianity was flawed.


And it would always be the same thing: The two of us beleiving what we beleive, and not giving up our own biases. She says although she knows the Church has flaws, and although she doesn't truly know if the divinity of Christ is truth, much less the existance of God....she chooses to beleive, because this is all she really has.


She has family problems. She has freindship problems. She has much conflict in her life, and like myself, she is prone to intense Depression and she harbors a LOT of anger. She tires of the racist remarks against her (polish jokes) that rival girls make about her, and even more so she tires of Protestant students insulting her as a Catholic.


I just realized that I was no better than the Evangelicals that harass her for her Faith. It shocked me..because I was amazed how one Christian could discriminate so badly against another...against my best freind. Yet, even though I was her best freind....I too indirectly discriminate against her, because she IS a catholic.


Why should she put up with my anti Christian biases? She's NEVER had a problem with me being Gay (well only that one time, but she accepted it, and still cares about me). Shouldn't I pay her the SAME RESPECT ?



God is one of the few things that she feels gives her strength. She prays with all her mental power...she prays with all her emotion. God is one of her only hopes, and her Faith is one of the few things that keep her moving forward. That keep her from slipping into a state of misery and dispair.



I HAVE NO RIGHT TO TAKE THAT AWAY FROM HER !



My mother is ALSO Christian...one of weak Faith, but she strongly chooses to keep her beleif in God...if not Jesus, at least God....she prays, because she feels she has too....she is a young, hardworking beautiful woman (she is 36, she had me early, she raised me by herself, and struggled to support herself, me, and our grandmother)....but she is weakened by bad freinds, a rough marriage, having to support 4 children, mortgage, debt, physical illness, and constant stress.


Her beleif in God is one of the few things that keeps her focused and in power.


I will not take that away from her, and I will no longer challenge the foundation of her mental strength....




And as a Buddhist, I am supposed to tolerate ALL religions, not just my own. Well...that's what I have to do....I have to change...myself....I have to stop wishing for everyone else to change and see things MY way...and start becoming stronger.


No more will I dwell in anger or self pity, and spite a force that truly has done nothing to me....it has only done what I ALLOWED it to do...Christianity has only hurt me as much as I have allowed it to have....it served me well in my earlier years. My beleif in God helped prevent me from committing suicide at age 15....


I no longer need that though. I am strong enough to live in this world without beleiving that there is a superior loving force watching over me. I am comfortable without that beleif...

But other people ARE NOT.....most people NEED GOD...or at least the beleif in it. I don't....but others do.



That's all I have to say....Take from it whatever you will, think whatever you want...i dont care....I have a lot to work on. I have to make myself stronger, and remove myself from all the anger, hate, and negativity I have allowed to consume me.

Shakyamunison
When you realize that the beliefs of others do not harm you, you have gained freedom. When you realize that the happiness of others is more valuable then the truth, you have found peace.

You have made a giant leap forward my friend. Congratulations.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
When you realize that the beliefs of others do not harm you, you have gained freedom. When you realize that the happiness of others is more valuable then the truth, you have found peace.

You have made a giant leap forward my friend. Congratulations.



Shakyamunison, you are always the first to respond to my stuff smile


Thanks for listening....my life needs change...there is no doubt about that. But the change has to come from myself. No one else has the answers or the solution....not my mother, not my freinds, not another boyfreind, not God....no one but me.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
...Thanks for listening....my life needs change...there is no doubt about that. But the change has to come from myself. No one else has the answers or the solution....not my mother, not my freinds, not another boyfreind, not God....no one but me.

That has always been the case. big grin

Blaxican
Congradulations on your revelation, Urizen. You've realized what faith actually is. smile

inamilist
To the brain, there is no difference between belief and fact.

It sucks to know you are right...

lol

I agree pretty much with your conclusion LU smile Though sometimes it is hard to see people you care about believe crazy things.

Alliance
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
That's all I have to say....Take from it whatever you will, think whatever you want...i dont care....I have a lot to work on. I have to make myself stronger, and remove myself from all the anger, hate, and negativity I have allowed to consume me.

I think this is good. However, how is it an athiestic revolution?

Lord Urizen
Thanks you guys....


It has more to do with the fact that my attacks on other people's beleifs were not sincere. I honestly couldn't care less who beleives what...it in no way affects me...


My lashing out against other people, and their beleifs, was a manifestation of my pain....I am not trying to get people to feel sorry for me, I am simply trying to explain my actions. I've been through a lot of stuff in my life....things I have not even mentioned because they are too painful to bring up....and harboring this pain and anger, I would attack anyone....Christian, Atheist, Muslim, Liberal, conservative, didn't matter...

As you can see, a lot of people have not gotten along with me...from all sides...not just one ....all sides..... there's a reason for that.


I have antagonized people, not because i truly care about what we discuss, but because this website was an easy ventiliation for my pain and anger....i tried to sugarcoat my anger with humor and sarcasm, but people can see right through it.


I may have come to this realization, but I have a lot to work on....I need to make some changes....I need to tell the people I love how much I love them....I need to tell my family that I'm Gay...I need to discipline myself with sleep, diet, excersize, etc....I need to stop worrying about people judging me, and just be free to speak with those I want to speak to...

Lord Urizen
Alliance, it's a Revelation...not a revolution...and what I meant to title this thread was "An Atheist's Revelation"

Alliance
laughing out loud my bad.

How do you reconcile athiesm with Buddhism? stick out tongue

Lord Urizen
Buddhism's core does not require the existance of a God....I am an Atheist Buddhist

Alliance
ah.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Alliance
laughing out loud my bad.

How do you reconcile athiesm with Buddhism? stick out tongue

Many Buddhists are atheists, but are all Buddhists atheists? I think it depends on what an atheists is.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Many Buddhists are atheists, but are all Buddhists atheists? I think it depends on what an atheists is.



It actually depends on what God is...


If God is Nature, if God is the Birth force of the Universe, then yes, I beleive in God.


If God is an old white man who sits on top of a bunch of clouds, judging people, and waiting to reward and punish like an immature emporer, than no, I don't beleive in God

Alliance
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Many Buddhists are atheists, but are all Buddhists atheists? I think it depends on what an atheists is.

Then how on earth is Buddhism a religion.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
It actually depends on what God is...


If God is Nature, if God is the Birth force of the Universe, then yes, I beleive in God.


If God is an old white man who sits on top of a bunch of clouds, judging people, and waiting to reward and punish like an immature emporer, than no, I don't beleive in God

This is what Buddha said about God:

Many statements I have left unsaid. Why have I left them unsaid? Because they are not helpful. They are not fundamental to the holy life. They do not lead to peace, knowledge, awakening, nirvana.

Majjhima Nikaya 63

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Alliance
Then how on earth is Buddhism a religion.

Because it is a practice.

Alliance
So are stoicism/liberalism/and many philosophies.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Alliance
So are stoicism/liberalism/and many philosophies.

But Buddhism requires that you do ceremonies. At least the type of Buddhism I am does.

Alliance
So is government a religion then because it demands performances of me?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Alliance
So is government a religion then because it demands performances of me?

We are off topic. Maybe you should start a thread.

Lord Urizen
I feel I have won a Victory today...but unlike my past victories, it is not over anyone else...I won a Victory over myself.

Alliance
laughing out loud Now we are back on topic. smile

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Alliance
laughing out loud Now we are back on topic. smile

I guess so. confused

lord xyz
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I've spent some time with my freinds and family, but in such a manner that I have not before considered...


And in doing so, I learned that when I insult God, or insult a religion, or make sensationalist claims based on anger, personal bias, and lack of reason to beleive, that I only hurt the people I care about, and weaken my own power.



I recently spoke to my best freind. She is Polish Catholic, we went to High School together, we went to Prom together. She used to have a crush on me, and in senior year of High School she found out I liked guys...but she over looked it, and we still remained the best of freinds.


I would always debate her about the existance of God, and how I felt Christianity was flawed.


And it would always be the same thing: The two of us beleiving what we beleive, and not giving up our own biases. She says although she knows the Church has flaws, and although she doesn't truly know if the divinity of Christ is truth, much less the existance of God....she chooses to beleive, because this is all she really has.


She has family problems. She has freindship problems. She has much conflict in her life, and like myself, she is prone to intense Depression and she harbors a LOT of anger. She tires of the racist remarks against her (polish jokes) that rival girls make about her, and even more so she tires of Protestant students insulting her as a Catholic.


I just realized that I was no better than the Evangelicals that harass her for her Faith. It shocked me..because I was amazed how one Christian could discriminate so badly against another...against my best freind. Yet, even though I was her best freind....I too indirectly discriminate against her, because she IS a catholic.


Why should she put up with my anti Christian biases? She's NEVER had a problem with me being Gay (well only that one time, but she accepted it, and still cares about me). Shouldn't I pay her the SAME RESPECT ?



God is one of the few things that she feels gives her strength. She prays with all her mental power...she prays with all her emotion. God is one of her only hopes, and her Faith is one of the few things that keep her moving forward. That keep her from slipping into a state of misery and dispair.



I HAVE NO RIGHT TO TAKE THAT AWAY FROM HER !



My mother is ALSO Christian...one of weak Faith, but she strongly chooses to keep her beleif in God...if not Jesus, at least God....she prays, because she feels she has too....she is a young, hardworking beautiful woman (she is 36, she had me early, she raised me by herself, and struggled to support herself, me, and our grandmother)....but she is weakened by bad freinds, a rough marriage, having to support 4 children, mortgage, debt, physical illness, and constant stress.


Her beleif in God is one of the few things that keeps her focused and in power.


I will not take that away from her, and I will no longer challenge the foundation of her mental strength....




And as a Buddhist, I am supposed to tolerate ALL religions, not just my own. Well...that's what I have to do....I have to change...myself....I have to stop wishing for everyone else to change and see things MY way...and start becoming stronger.


No more will I dwell in anger or self pity, and spite a force that truly has done nothing to me....it has only done what I ALLOWED it to do...Christianity has only hurt me as much as I have allowed it to have....it served me well in my earlier years. My beleif in God helped prevent me from committing suicide at age 15....


I no longer need that though. I am strong enough to live in this world without beleiving that there is a superior loving force watching over me. I am comfortable without that beleif...

But other people ARE NOT.....most people NEED GOD...or at least the beleif in it. I don't....but others do.



That's all I have to say....Take from it whatever you will, think whatever you want...i dont care....I have a lot to work on. I have to make myself stronger, and remove myself from all the anger, hate, and negativity I have allowed to consume me. Maybe you do understand religion. hmm

Thundar
Everyone can believe what they want to believe. But at the same point, they do have to come to terms with where such beliefs will bring them to. If am strong in the belief that I am to become a fire fighter, then at some point - I'll have to come to terms with the fact that I'll have to go into a burning house or building.

So yeah, everyone is entitled to their opinion - but they also have to accept those things(good or bad) that come along with the opinions they've expressed.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Thundar
Everyone can believe what they want to believe. But at the same point, they do have to come to terms with where such beliefs will bring them to. If am strong in the belief that I am to become a fire fighter, then at some point - I'll have to come to terms with the fact that I'll have to go into a burning house or building.

So yeah, everyone is entitled to their opinion - but they also have to accept those things(good or bad) that come along with the opinions they've expressed.

Is this revelation totally beyond you?

Alliance
Originally posted by lord xyz
Maybe you do understand religion. hmm

Its not so much understanding religion, but how to live in a religiously pluralistic society.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by lord xyz
Maybe you do understand religion. hmm


I grew up Christian....my antagonizing of Christianity was due to:


1) The global wide and historical corruption I felt Christianity possessed

2) The fact that the Bible seems to contain more myth than fact

3) My own anger

Thundar
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Is this revelation totally beyond you?

Perhaps that's a question you and Urizen should ask yourselves. wink

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Thundar
Perhaps that's a question you and Urizen should ask yourselves. wink

That is the kind of response I would expect from a 10 year old.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Thundar
Perhaps that's a question you and Urizen should ask yourselves. wink


What are you talking about ?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
What are you talking about ?

I told him:

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Is this revelation totally beyond you?

Then he got pissed. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Lord Urizen
HE also antagonized me in the other thread recently....he really seems to adore conflict.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
HE also antagonized me in the other thread recently....he really seems to adore conflict.

It's a good thing he has the holy spirit in him, or he would be a mass murderer. laughing out loud

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It's a good thing he has the holy spirit in him, or he would be a mass murderer. laughing out loud



big grin

lord xyz
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I grew up Christian....my antagonizing of Christianity was due to:


1) The global wide and historical corruption I felt Christianity possessed

2) The fact that the Bible seems to contain more myth than fact

3) My own anger Yes, I understand Catholicism ****ed you up, but that's no excuse to not understand the religious person's mind.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by lord xyz
Yes, I understand Catholicism ****ed you up, but that's no excuse to not understand the religious person's mind.





What do you think I am attempting now ? What the f**k?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by lord xyz
Yes, I understand Catholicism ****ed you up, but that's no excuse to not understand the religious person's mind.


Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Is this revelation totally beyond you?

chithappens
I remember when I first came through this though process. Honestly, it is hard to respect what others believe later even when you feel like you have this figured out because they rarely give you the same respect back.

I attempt to respect others and their beliefs at all times but I slip every now and then. It's tough but it's good you can notice about that yourself. Most never bother to do a self analysis.

FeceMan
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
...that I only hurt the people I care about...

I just realized that I was no better than the Evangelicals that harass her for her Faith.
Ding-ding-ding, a winnar is you.

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
she found out I liked guys...but she over looked it

No, she didn't overlook it. She just wasn't suprised.

lord xyz
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
What do you think I am attempting now ? What the f**k? Yeah, AFTER you started all these anti-christian threads. I mean, shouldn't that have been the first thing to do, and then make fun of them?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by lord xyz
Yeah, AFTER you started all these anti-christian threads. I mean, shouldn't that have been the first thing to do, and then make fun of them?

OMG you are a cynic. laughing

FeceMan
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
No, she didn't overlook it. She just wasn't suprised.
Probably after she found out that he sold his body for $500.

FeceMan
Speaking of which, I find it hard to believe that someone would pay $500 for Urizen, even if he were the hottest piece of ass around. Maybe we ought to take a poll in the OTF.

Jim Reaper

lord xyz
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
OMG you are a cynic. laughing Not all the time. evil face

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by chithappens
I remember when I first came through this though process. Honestly, it is hard to respect what others believe later even when you feel like you have this figured out because they rarely give you the same respect back.

I attempt to respect others and their beliefs at all times but I slip every now and then. It's tough but it's good you can notice about that yourself. Most never bother to do a self analysis.


It is hard to respect another person's perspective when it seems completely unfounded, and on top of that is offensive to you. However, I find that people are a lot smarter and more reasonable than you know, and when you approach them diplomatically they will open up to you.


When you approach them in a hostile or antagonizing manner, it will only strengthen thier biases against you

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FeceMan
Speaking of which, I find it hard to believe that someone would pay $500 for Urizen, even if he were the hottest piece of ass around. Maybe we ought to take a poll in the OTF.


I also find it hard to beleive....but it happened. Some loser actually paid $500.00 fkn dollars...the idiot....I met him at Chelsea in New York, a lot of Gay guys live there.

I am not going to explain the reasoning behind my actions...i did NOT enjoy it, trust me...it was humilating. I wouldn't do it again..but i promise you, I had reason to do it. That tuition excuse was a lie....


Everyone in the OTF hates me, more than they hate Smiter, so i'd rather not. They all think I look "too guido" and apparently that's a bad thing in KMC roll eyes (sarcastic)

FeceMan
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I am not going to explain the reasoning behind my actions...i did NOT enjoy it, trust me...it was humilating. I wouldn't do it again..but i promise you, I had reason to do it. That tuition excuse was a lie....
Was he fat?

Also, I didn't think you enjoyed it. The entire business of prostitution is degrading, as it turns a person into nothing more than an object for sexual pleasure...the person is robbed of his or her will...a horrible experience.

I know you probably think that I judge you for that, but I don't. I feel sadness that you had to go through such an experience.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FeceMan
Was he fat?


A little bit...which is why I charged so much...and he was Christian too..i mean come on....wtf was he thinking ?



Originally posted by FeceMan
Also, I didn't think you enjoyed it. The entire business of prostitution is degrading, as it turns a person into nothing more than an object for sexual pleasure...the person is robbed of his or her will...a horrible experience.


I agree with you 100%, and I would never wish that kinda humiliation on ANYBODY, not even my worst rival. People think that because I'm this over sexxed homosexual pervert, that I would easily do something like that for fun, and nothing could be further from the truth.

That was disgusting and one of the worst things I allowed myself to endure. It's hard for me to think anyone could respect me if they knew, much less respect myself.


And on top of that, it adds to my mental complex...that i have to be liked for my body to be liked at all...i know, im 21, and i have that kind of mentality..it's sad.





Originally posted by FeceMan
I know you probably think that I judge you for that, but I don't. I feel sadness that you had to go through such an experience.


Thanks

FeceMan
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
And on top of that, it adds to my mental complex...that i have to be liked for my body to be liked at all...i know, im 21, and i have that kind of mentality..it's sad.
Well, it's good to know that I'm not the only one with mental complexes around here.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FeceMan
Well, it's good to know that I'm not the only one with mental complexes around here.


Trust me bro, every1 on KMC has a fkn mental complex....



I also don't trust many gay guys....thier some of the most judgemental ppl on the fkn planet....ive been used and screwed over a lot..i almost wish i was straight.

Alliance
Everone has mental complexes.

Goddess Kali
True that

FeceMan
I preferred you as Urizen.

Nellinator
Me too.

Goddess Kali
Originally posted by FeceMan
I preferred you as Urizen.


Why ?



This is my rebirth big grin

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Why ?



This is my rebirth big grin

As a chick?

Goddess Kali
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
As a chick?


Kali is my favorite mythological character. I think she is cooler than Zeus, Osiris, and Yahweh

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Kali is my favorite mythological character. I think she is cooler than Zeus, Osiris, and Yahweh

Anyone that can own Shiva is kickass in my book.

Goddess Kali
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Anyone that can own Shiva is kickass in my book.


yes

Alliance
Urizen, you are now a Goddess?

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Alliance
Urizen, you are now a Goddess?

Urizen was a god . . .

Goddess Kali
I have transformed from the God of Darkness and Consumption to the Goddess of Death and Destruction....


I am slowly moving up the moral latter laughing

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Goddess Kali
I have transformed from the God of Darkness and Consumption to the Goddess of Death and Destruction....


I am slowly moving up the moral latter laughing

laughing out loud So next is Set?

FeceMan
I'm partial to the erinyes, honestly.

Alliance
What abou that Inuit goddess that was a giant hair banshee?

Goddess Kali
Kali is kickass, and she represents my transformation from blind hatred and anger to objectivity

Alliance
Is this transfomation complete or a wip?

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Alliance
Is this transfomation complete or a wip?

Are you asking if he's pre-op or post-op?

Alliance
or on the operating table.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Alliance
or on the operating table.

Well I assume he's not there. Its hard to type while in surgery.

Alliance
Well, this isn't your traditional surgery?

Which reminds me that my university offers an Independant Study in Surgery...and Comparative Genocide.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Alliance
Well, this isn't your traditional surgery?

Which reminds me that my university offers an Independant Study in Surgery...and Comparative Genocide.

laughing

Alliance
Thats what I did too....two best clases...EVER.

leonheartmm
i think ignorance, in the long run hurts people more than brutal truth. for a large number of reasons. also politically in the world, just like voters giving cumulative power{which is very little individually} to the government and its decisions, believers give and add to the cumulative power of the relegion{and what im saying is especially true for most organised relegions except maybe buddhism} and relegion since the beginning of recorded history up until now has destroyed more lives, livelehoods, quality of life and mass psychology and "goodness" then any other thing in the history of mankind. best thing to do is not allow the RELEGIOUS frame of mind to develop in children and putting aside exceptions and prodigies and compensating for cultural differences, i think all children under perhaps 11 can be taught to understand and make the transition from relegion to agnostic/atheistic or non relegious/rational. very easily without much sufferage. it is also true for most NON troubled teenagers up until they enter practical life. however for people who ARE troubled and specially those whose insecurities{and i dont mean that in a negetive way} are suppressedand their conciousness TAUGHT to be given hope by nothing OTHER than god or perhaps who have turnes to the god of their relegion as a final refuge and their minds have accepted that into all parts of rationalizing etc. it is very hard for them and includes a lot of suffering. obviously multiplied by the fact that in today's world there is for most people almost no1 who loves and accepts them unconditionally and at face value, who they can take refuge in and perhaps fill the hole that god leaves. n the sad part is that there isnt much of a solution, with everyone relegious confusing them and people making them believe that without god there is NO REASON to live or no purpose to anything. on thing i would say is that that is not true at ALL and we should believe{and it is logically provable} that there is as much , if not more reason to live and for a change, live YOUR LIFE. also we should make them and ourselves understand that LOGICAL does not mean NON SPIRITUAL, it just means u dont except most of the organised ignorant and damaging relegions. it is very much spiritual{and many emperecists and scientists make the mistake of getting carried away in their BELIEF of being logical and refute all things abstract or spiritual/mystic and dont realize that it has become a dogma, perhaps as stubborn as the organised relegions they condemn} and indeed THAT in itself can be logically proven. infact logic itself has limits both emperical or otherwise which it itself proposes and there is nothing REFUTING higher states, concepts etc. on the contrary there is plenty of evidence in philosophy, science, mathematics and well also anecdotal stuff in mystical occurances etc{lol. funny as it is, atleast i have very good reason to believe that atleast a miniscule amount of it is deadly true} that supports things, OUT THERE. also if u meditate etc{n im not talkin about the psuedo stuff done for pleasure or just health} as in empty your mind andbecome aware of atleast, your self, thoughts etc to an extent. one would realize that EVEN IF theres nothin out there, this life has plenty to live for just in itself. there doesnt need to be a god sitting up there and validating your existance. we just need to understand that whatever HIGHER there is{or as some say, MIGHT BE} is probably not as shallow as to confounded by things like IDEAS. it is beyond your everyday conception of things, or is that and MORE. it is most definately not sumthing describebable as a father, or an egotistical tyrant judging and influencing you on every turn and seeing you and preparing heaven for his servants and hell for all people who dare to think otherwise. that is infact one of the most human like{and in the worst possible way} anddegrading ways an apparently HIGHER or all powerful being can be described. and also a last thing id like to say is that " every one has a conciounce, conciousness, ability to feal, think, live and well ..... BE, and that is a given for most or all people. these fealings, facts or emotions do not CHANGE at the slightest turn of events. now we should ask ourselves{or others} whethere there IS a god or isnt a god does not CHANGE the way YOU are is it? would you FEAL any lesser if these fealings were NOT created by god? how is it that these things which persist unchanged and which are the core to who you are and what you ultimately hold dearest suddenly DEMERITED by yourself if one accepts that they were not CREATED by god, even if they remain the same before and after that realisation? what is ultimately important to you, who YOU are or what DEFINES your creation.{and do remember for your sake and for the sake of others that if you dont accept this fact, then you should, byyour own thinking be more happy and better off as an un feeling/thinking basic robot created by god than a complete/whole and happy/understanding/spiritual MAN who was manufactured by another man or no1 at all. ultimately people think of their imaginary SOUL being intrinsicbly connected to god and without god, their soul doesnt exist. and we have to dispell that misconception.


oh yeah my final view on the topic. if u look sensibly i think a finite life with the knowledgeof ultimate demise is still MUCH BETTER {as the person will actually LIVE knowing that they MIGHT have finite time} THAN a finite life without knowledge of ultimate demise, not lived, and spent in the midless{and what i would call the true , slow death of the soul/conciounce} pursuits of dogma, displeasure and well contributing to sadness and mass extermination through warring ideoligies of the worlds populace{and taking away the FINITE lives of countless people} and well always pondering on whether there really is a god and after life.{as every man no matter how defiant, or faithfull does}

Goddess Kali
A brilliant post Leon thumb up


You really put a lot of wisdom and sincerity into your thoughts. I think your point is wondorful, and should be reviewed carefully by Theists and Atheists alike.

Alliance
Too bad you can't read it becuase its a giant block of text.

Goddess Kali
i read it, he puts a lot of thought into his text

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by leonheartmm
i think ignorance, in the long run hurts people more than brutal truth. for a large number of reasons. also politically in the world, just like voters giving cumulative power{which is very little individually} to the government and its decisions, believers give and add to the cumulative power of the relegion{and what im saying is especially true for most organised relegions except maybe buddhism} and relegion since the beginning of recorded history up until now has destroyed more lives, livelehoods, quality of life and mass psychology and "goodness" then any other thing in the history of mankind. best thing to do is not allow the RELEGIOUS frame of mind to develop in children and putting aside exceptions and prodigies and compensating for cultural differences, i think all children under perhaps 11 can be taught to understand and make the transition from relegion to agnostic/atheistic or non relegious/rational. very easily without much sufferage. it is also true for most NON troubled teenagers up until they enter practical life. however for people who ARE troubled and specially those whose insecurities{and i dont mean that in a negetive way} are suppressedand their conciousness TAUGHT to be given hope by nothing OTHER than god or perhaps who have turnes to the god of their relegion as a final refuge and their minds have accepted that into all parts of rationalizing etc. it is very hard for them and includes a lot of suffering. obviously multiplied by the fact that in today's world there is for most people almost no1 who loves and accepts them unconditionally and at face value, who they can take refuge in and perhaps fill the hole that god leaves. n the sad part is that there isnt much of a solution, with everyone relegious confusing them and people making them believe that without god there is NO REASON to live or no purpose to anything. on thing i would say is that that is not true at ALL and we should believe{and it is logically provable} that there is as much , if not more reason to live and for a change, live YOUR LIFE. also we should make them and ourselves understand that LOGICAL does not mean NON SPIRITUAL, it just means u dont except most of the organised ignorant and damaging relegions. it is very much spiritual{and many emperecists and scientists make the mistake of getting carried away in their BELIEF of being logical and refute all things abstract or spiritual/mystic and dont realize that it has become a dogma, perhaps as stubborn as the organised relegions they condemn} and indeed THAT in itself can be logically proven. infact logic itself has limits both emperical or otherwise which it itself proposes and there is nothing REFUTING higher states, concepts etc. on the contrary there is plenty of evidence in philosophy, science, mathematics and well also anecdotal stuff in mystical occurances etc{lol. funny as it is, atleast i have very good reason to believe that atleast a miniscule amount of it is deadly true} that supports things, OUT THERE. also if u meditate etc{n im not talkin about the psuedo stuff done for pleasure or just health} as in empty your mind andbecome aware of atleast, your self, thoughts etc to an extent. one would realize that EVEN IF theres nothin out there, this life has plenty to live for just in itself. there doesnt need to be a god sitting up there and validating your existance. we just need to understand that whatever HIGHER there is{or as some say, MIGHT BE} is probably not as shallow as to confounded by things like IDEAS. it is beyond your everyday conception of things, or is that and MORE. it is most definately not sumthing describebable as a father, or an egotistical tyrant judging and influencing you on every turn and seeing you and preparing heaven for his servants and hell for all people who dare to think otherwise. that is infact one of the most human like{and in the worst possible way} anddegrading ways an apparently HIGHER or all powerful being can be described. and also a last thing id like to say is that " every one has a conciounce, conciousness, ability to feal, think, live and well ..... BE, and that is a given for most or all people. these fealings, facts or emotions do not CHANGE at the slightest turn of events. now we should ask ourselves{or others} whethere there IS a god or isnt a god does not CHANGE the way YOU are is it? would you FEAL any lesser if these fealings were NOT created by god? how is it that these things which persist unchanged and which are the core to who you are and what you ultimately hold dearest suddenly DEMERITED by yourself if one accepts that they were not CREATED by god, even if they remain the same before and after that realisation? what is ultimately important to you, who YOU are or what DEFINES your creation.{and do remember for your sake and for the sake of others that if you dont accept this fact, then you should, byyour own thinking be more happy and better off as an un feeling/thinking basic robot created by god than a complete/whole and happy/understanding/spiritual MAN who was manufactured by another man or no1 at all. ultimately people think of their imaginary SOUL being intrinsicbly connected to god and without god, their soul doesnt exist. and we have to dispell that misconception.


oh yeah my final view on the topic. if u look sensibly i think a finite life with the knowledgeof ultimate demise is still MUCH BETTER {as the person will actually LIVE knowing that they MIGHT have finite time} THAN a finite life without knowledge of ultimate demise, not lived, and spent in the midless{and what i would call the true , slow death of the soul/conciounce} pursuits of dogma, displeasure and well contributing to sadness and mass extermination through warring ideoligies of the worlds populace{and taking away the FINITE lives of countless people} and well always pondering on whether there really is a god and after life.{as every man no matter how defiant, or faithfull does}

MY ****ING EYES! WHAT THE HELL IS THAT?

Nellinator
Originally posted by Alliance
Too bad you can't read it becuase its a giant block of text.
My first thoughts.... this lacks punctuation... this will be difficult to read... *clicks X in top right*

Alliance
..lacks spelling, punctuation, or spacing.

I don't care what ideas you have, if you can't be decent in presenting them (and come on, we're talking KMC decent here) I'm not going to go blind reading something that I'll probably just disagree with.

I'm not asking for perfection, just basic standards.

Nellinator
Personally I'll read it in a few days once I work up the nerve. Thought countsI suppose.

Goddess Kali
You guys are missing out then on what he had to say....despite my intolerance of Jesusisalive, I still had the courtesy to read his entire posts before I mocked them.

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