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This bloody rap music gun culture is getting on my nerves its ****ing everywhere

http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=1bf5da49-d37d-46cc-b24e-9e37d5313d8a

TORONTO - Toronto residents are feeling "under siege" by gangs that draw their income from drug sales and their inspiration from urban rap music, says an Ipsos-Reid poll released yesterday.

Gun crime and violence has become the most important issue facing the city of Toronto for 55% of the residents who participated in the poll -- up 40 percentage points from a similar survey conducted two years ago.

The degree of concern more than doubles the number of Torontonians who cite gun violence as their primary concern over those who list "garbage" as the most pressing issue facing Toronto.

The findings of the survey, conducted by Ipsos-Reid for the National Post, Global News and CFRB, arrived on a day of several shootings.

Apparently random acts of violence have left nine out of 10 residents of the city, or 87%, believing that "Toronto is becoming more violent compared to five years ago" -- up 21 percentage points from a survey conducted in 2000, when 66% of respondents agreed with the same statement.

And while 74% of Torontonians said they felt safe in 2003 walking alone in their neighbourhood after dark, only 64% feel the same way now, the poll says. The poll found women, at 46%, to be more likely than men, at 25%, to feel unsafe after dark in their neighbourhoods.

"I don't personally feel under siege, although I do have concerns about the increasing number of gun incidents in which people are being killed," said Paul Godfrey, a former member of the Toronto police commission.

"I think you'd have to be living in a vacuum if you didn't realize that what we have here is a spike in the use of guns and young people shooting other young people," added Mr. Godfrey, who is now president and chief executive officer of the Toronto Blue Jays baseball club.

The recent violence, the vast majority of respondents said, is driven by gangs and the drugs they traffic in -- a belief the Toronto police force largely endorses.

"The overwhelming majority of this gun violence that our city has experienced is being perpetuated by people who are involved in gangs," Police Chief Bill Blair said yesterday after hearing the poll results.

Statistically, violent crime rates are down, said Chief Blair, who attributed the increase in concern to the new "callousness" of gunmen who are more likely to pull the trigger in busy public places.

But more than gangs, 63% of the survey's respondents pointed to the "glamorization of gang culture" -- found, some say, in movies and rap music videos that tend to glorify gangsters -- as contributing to the increase in Toronto's gun violence.

Torontonians 55 and over were more likely than younger residents to believe such "glamorization" is an important factor in the city's gun violence.

Recent moves by the Toronto police force to move more patrolling officers into the city's gritty northwest corner, where much of the violence has occurred, reflects the belief of 64% of residents, who would rather see an increase in police presence and stricter penalties than money spent on social programs aimed at fostering alternatives to gang culture among youths.

I don't think that just because the people who commit this crime listen to the music, means that that the music is at fault. This is much more an example of young gang culture and how changing times means children are maturing faster, and, find a need for material positions, which, many can only seek using violence.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
I don't think that just because the people who commit this crime listen to the music, means that that the music is at fault. This is much more an example of young gang culture and how changing times means children are maturing faster, and, find a need for material positions, which, many can only seek using violence.

Whatever it sucks.

Originally posted by Alfheim
This bloody rap music gun culture is getting on my nerves its ****ing everywhere


ME too brother. Not many things i despise more in this world.

thats why i dont listen to it and play my celtic rock loud and proud. It's not rap fans fault for not being able to appreciate real music. constant beats can brainwash anyone after listening to them long enough.

Hip Hop > threadstarter.


Cut the musical ignorance dude

Originally posted by Alfheim
Whatever it sucks.

Yes gun crime does suck, but try and have some geographical knowledge here, hip hop is not what's causing gun crime. The Congo is full of child soldiers and I doubt very much they listen to hip hop. There's gun crime everywhere because of greed not because of a style of music. This is a typical modern society scape goat, it cannot face facts and see that it's society's fault not musicians.

I dunno, I listened to 50 Cent the other day and I tried to shoot myself

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
ME too brother. Not many things i despise more in this world.

thats why i dont listen to it and play my celtic rock loud and proud. It's not rap fans fault for not being able to appreciate real music. constant beats can brainwash anyone after listening to them long enough.

Oh har har very funny im black you know and I can actually rap, so no you failed.



Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Yes gun crime does suck,

Of course hip hop is not entirely to blame, but it doesnt help either

Originally posted by chillmeistergen

but try and have some geographical knowledge here, hip hop is not what's causing gun crime. The Congo is full of child soldiers and I doubt very much they listen to hip hop. There's gun crime everywhere because of greed not because of a style of music. This is a typical modern society scape goat, it cannot face facts and see that it's society's fault not musicians.

Er well you would be suprised I was watching the news where there was this African rapper who was from the Congo who was rapping in front of politicians. Of course hip hop is not entirely to blame, but it doesnt help either when you hear that a group in the Civil War was called the West Side Boys.

Furthermore there is an increase in gun crime in south london and most of the people who are doing it are black.....there is a pattern emerging.

No it would be stupid to say the cause of war in Africa is hip hop, but at the sametime gun crime seems to be growing amongst the balck community in the Uk and other countries. The problem is black people want to emulate these people in rap music and they think its positive.

It's growing in the UK because of the deprivation these young people are suffering, on council esates etc. They may listen to hip hop and this will be because they can relate to it as it talks of the deprivation they too suffer. These people need money so they use guns to exercise power, it would be alot more plausible that the selling of illegal drugs, car theft and robbery were to blame in the rise in gun crime.

Bro im fed up...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q8LxO4wnCQ

Everybody has to face deprivation but I dont understand why is it that gun crime is the highest amongst the black youth.


To quote Chris Rock "Theres a civial war going on amongst black people and there are two sides. Theres black people and theres n***** and the n***** have got to go."

Originally posted by Alfheim
Bro im fed up...

Everybody has to face deprivation but I dont understand why is it that gun crime is the highest amongst the black youth.

I can't watch that at the moment but I will later, my theory as to why it's more common amongst the black youth is that we unfortunately live in a very racist country. Black youths are given little or no chances in employment or education, due to this many of them are concentrated in inner city schools and are forced to turn to either violence, drugs and many other types of crime, in order to prove themselves. I don't know how much of the London shooting news you've been reading up on but recently a white male shot another white male who he'd been bullying for years, he was also a fan of hip hop. Rap music is not exclusively influential to black youths and you'd be a fool to think so.

It's what skinnyman coined as the councilestate of mind that's causing gun crime, not music.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Oh har har very funny im black you know and I can actually rap, so no you failed.




what exactly did i fail at? and it's not your fault that you have been brainwashed into thinking rap is a form of music. Anyone can spew together words from a thesarus and create a set of beats from a synthesizer and sound board.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
I can't watch that at the moment but I will later, my theory as to why it's more common amongst the black youth is that we unfortunately live in a very racist country. Black youths are given little or no chances in employment or education, due to this many of them are concentrated in inner city schools and are forced to turn to either violence, drugs and many other types of crime, in order to prove themselves.


What black people are the only minorities....you wanna blame everything on racism. Look there are lots of black people who are not into gun crime, but the fact of the matter is there are still a significnat number of them who are.

I think every race has its own problems or 'history', but the fact of the matter is that us black people have a n***** problem, period....and all these excuses about racism and poverty dont wash with me. Sure poverty doesnt help but the fact of the matter is its growing fastest amongst black peopel.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen

I don't know how much of the London shooting news you've been reading up on but recently a white male shot another white male who he'd been bullying for years, he was also a fan of hip hop. Rap music is not exclusively influential to black youths and you'd be a fool to think so.

White people listen to hip hop.....really??? I didn't know that...thanks.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen

It's what skinnyman coined as the councilestate of mind that's causing gun crime, not music.

Well i've already said my piece. I think it would help to analyse what im saying more carefully.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
what exactly did i fail at? and it's not your fault that you have been brainwashed into thinking rap is a form of music. Anyone can spew together words from a thesarus and create a set of beats from a synthesizer and sound board.

Hey I dont care about that im talking about gun crime.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
what exactly did i fail at? and it's not your fault that you have been brainwashed into thinking rap is a form of music. Anyone can spew together words from a thesarus and create a set of beats from a synthesizer and sound board.

Lets not turn this into a musical debate, as it concerns something a lot more important than that. People probably don't like your taste in music, so what? Your opinion isn't going to change anyones taste, no matter how compelling and humorous the argument.

Originally posted by Alfheim
What black people are the only minorities....you wanna blame everything on racism. Look there are lots of black people who are not into gun crime, but the fact of the matter is there are still a significnat number of them who are.



I'm definately not trying to say all black people are into gun crime at all. The fact we have to both agree on is that gun crime is getting out of control, no matter what the reasons we're both striving to make the same point. There are also alot of white people who commit gun crime. the undeniable fact is that the judical system cannot be fully trusted to produce correct statistics, because, we have no clue as to how much gun crime goes undiscovered. This is what sociologists call the dark figure of crime.

Music isn't to blame for what people do, people are to blame for what people do.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
what exactly did i fail at? and it's not your fault that you have been brainwashed into thinking rap is a form of music. Anyone can spew together words from a thesarus and create a set of beats from a synthesizer and sound board.

Hip hop is a genuine form of music and you're a fool for thinking otherwise. Like it or not, it's a genuine form of music.

That's like saying Britney Spears doesn't make music just because you dislike it.

-AC

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
There are also alot of white people who commit gun crime. the undeniable fact is that the judical system cannot be fully trusted to produce correct statistics, because, we have no clue as to how much gun crime goes undiscovered. This is what sociologists call the dark figure of crime.

Yeah thats true but this is the thing. I've live in south london so I know what goes on. When you get on the bus and you get two black youth saying such and such got shot then you know guns crime has increased. Forgot about the figures I live in the envinroment. I dont hear other minorities glorify guns like some black people do.

Furthermore its not always poverty. As Asha D (rapper) put it he was from a lower middle class background, some of these kids arent in poverty at all they are just copying rap music...so no the music is to blame as well.

Furthermore I have more chance of being shot because im black.....I mean what the **** you cant even go to Canada cos the smae **** is going on.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Music isn't to blame for what people do, people are to blame for what people do.



yeah really i dont think the root of the problem is music but it does contribute to the problem. I am just upset as a black person because of this problem.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah thats true but this is the thing. I've live in south london so I know what goes on. When you get on the bus and you get two black youth saying such and such got shot then you know guns crime has increased. Forgot about the figures I live in the envinroment. I dont hear other minorities glorify guns like some black people do.

Furthermore its not always poverty. As Asha D put it he was from a lower middle class background, some of these kids arent in poverty at all they are just copying rap music...so no the music is to blame as well.

Furthermore I have more chance of being shot because im black.....I mean what the **** you cant even go to Canada cos the smae **** is going on.

The music isn't to blame. Music doesn't make people shoot guns, people can try and say music was the inspiration to do so, but those people are idiots. It's not the music's fault in any case, it's the idiots' fault for thinking it's ok to copy what they hear on record.

Forget about figures? What? Oh yes, let's ignore facts just because they disprove what you believe.

You can't go to Canada? What are you on about?

Most nonsensical fool ever,

-AC

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Lets not turn this into a musical debate, as it concerns something a lot more important than that.

i'm sorry, i just fail to see the relevance of the statement that started this thread. It is absurd to think that gun crimes are soley contributed to gangsta rap. It is probably a fact that it has in some way inspired or influenced some people into embracing the "street mentality" which challenges impressionable youths to become like the icon on the front of the rap cd. The smae icons that speak about NOTHING other than paranoia, and a singled out state of mind, that everyone is against you and you have to re-up and stay strapped to be on your "game" Gang crimes were around before rap, rap only glorified gang life while giving it an outlet to success.

Truth is, young impressionable minds who feel alienated will find any kind of rebelious outlet to express their tormented and disoriented emotions. It is called falling into the wrong crowd. Gansta rap or not, western society will always have the social ills of youth crimes. Unless the community steps in and gives these youths an alternate way of life. It is up to them to grow and mature on their own and see that their way of life leads nowhere but into a vicious cycle. This i believe is related to natures way of weeding out the weak

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
i'm sorry, i just fail to see the relevance of the statement that started this thread. It is absurd to think that gun crimes are soley contributed to gangsta rap. It is probably a fact that it has in some way inspired or influenced some people into embracing the "street mentality" which challenges impressionable youths to become like the icon on the front of the rap cd. The smae icons that speak about NOTHING other than paranoia, and a singled out state of mind, that everyone is against you and you have to re-up and stay strapped to be on your "game" Gang crimes were around before rap, rap only glorified gang life while giving it an outlet to success.

Truth is, young impressionable minds who feel alienated will find any kind of rebelious outlet to express their tormented and disoriented emotions. It is called falling into the wrong crowd. Gansta rap or not, western society will always have the social ills of youth crimes. Unless the community steps in and gives these youths an alternate way of life. It is up to them to grow and mature on their own and see that their way of life leads nowhere but into a vicious cycle. This i believe is related to natures way of weeding out the weak

It's called hip hop, first of all. Rap is what hip hop MCs do, it's not the name of the genre.

Two; You said it. Young impressionable minds. It's not the music's fault. Gangsta orientated hip hop came after, original hip hop wasn't anything to do with glorifying crime. I suggest you brush up on the ol' research.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The music isn't to blame. Music doesn't make people shoot guns, people can try and say music was the inspiration to do so, but those people are idiots. It's not the music's fault in any case, it's the idiots' fault for thinking it's ok to copy what they hear on record.


Yeah but that doesnt help me at all. The fact of the matter is its happening and something needs to be done about it. Im not disputing that its stupid what im pissed off about is that it happens.

Hip hip is not the root of the problem, but it defintely is a factor

Originally posted by Alfheim


Furthermore its not always poverty. As Asha D (rapper) put it he was from a lower middle class background, some of these kids arent in poverty at all they are just copying rap music...so no the music is to blame as well.



Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
gures? What? Oh yes, let's ignore facts just because they disprove what you believe.

Are you just arguing for the sake of it? Read and comprehend. So the fcat that I live in the envinromnet doesnt count for anything. What im saying is this there is theory and practical ie theory and real life and in rea life it suggests that gun crime is growing amonsgt black youth. Oh and the figures show that gun crime is growing amsongst black youth in london....those are the figures.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I've live in south london so I know what goes on. When you get on the bus and you get two black youth saying such and such got shot then you know guns crime has increased. Forgot about the figures I live in the envinroment. I dont hear other minorities glorify guns like some black people do.




Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

You can't go to Canada? What are you on about?

Most nonsensical fool ever,

-AC

Of course I can go to Canada im just pissed off because something similar is happening as well...it seems

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's called hip hop, first of all. Rap is what hip hop MCs do, it's not the name of the genre.

Two; You said it. Young impressionable minds. It's not the music's fault. Gangsta orientated hip hop came after, original hip hop wasn't anything to do with glorifying crime. I suggest you brush up on the ol' research.

-AC

jesus christ who cares what its called. When i go into a musci store looking for "hip hop" ( which i never would) and ask to se the rap section, guess what? They will show me to the hip hop section. Alternate rock, techno rock, classic rock is still rock. Your seriously splitting hairs over the technicalities of the difference between rap and hip hop. Most of the modern world associates rap with hip hop.

I wasnt trying to condem your shitty, uninspired, melody absent music genre. I was actually trying to support it by saying it has very little if any effect on gun crimes.

Im not sure you are aware, but during the early 90's during the birth of gansta rap ( which is hip hop but referred to as rap) was connected to the gang epidemic which stormed through California, and later spread to the east coast cities.

The reason RAP music is stigmatized with gun crimes is because it is the music of choice of "gangstas" and has very clear lyrics. The exact same reason death metal is stigmatized and related to Hate crimes by skinheads and neo nazis.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah but that doesnt help me at all. The fact of the matter is its happening and something needs to be done about it. Im not disputing that its stupid what im pissed off about is that it happens.

Hip hip is not the root of the problem, but it defintely is a factor.

I don't care that it doesn't help you. You're pissed that gun crime happens, well welcome to Planet Earth. It will always happen, I suggest you deal. I don't like it, but it will always be there.

Hip hop may be CITED as a factor, but it isn't to blame, at all. Music doesn't kill people.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Are you just arguing for the sake of it? Read and comprehend. So the fcat that I live in the envinromnet doesnt count for anything. What im saying is this there is theory and practical ie theory and real life and in rea life it suggests that gun crime is growing amonsgt black youth. Oh and the figures show that gun crime is growing amsongst black youth in london....those are the figures.

Figures are facts, what you've experienced does not overrule them, is my point.

You can't discard facts because you saw differently.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Of course I can go to Canada im just pissed off because something similar is happening as well...it seems

Have you just been born? Are you just discovering things for the first time?

Yes, crime happens everywhere.

-AC

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
jesus christ who cares what its called. When i go into a musci store looking for "hip hop" ( which i never would) and ask to se the rap section, guess what? They will show me to the hip hop section. Alternate rock, techno rock, classic rock is still rock. Your seriously splitting hairs over the technicalities of the difference between rap and hip hop. Most of the modern world associates rap with hip hop.

It's an accepted term, that doesn't make it a correct one.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
I wasnt trying to condem your shitty, uninspired, melody absent music genre. I was actually trying to support it by saying it has very little if any effect on gun crimes.

MY genre? It's a genre that has a few artists I like, I'm not married to it. The fact that you are speaking about it and condemning it (Which is what you are doing.) without knowing anything about it besides what you see on TV just proves you're an ignorant fool.

If someone said "Rock is just screaming and stupid noise." because they heard some shitty bands, what would you say? Exactly.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
Im not sure you are aware, but during the early 90's during the birth of gansta rap ( which is hip hop but referred to as rap) was connected to the gang epidemic which stormed through California, and later spread to the east coast cities.

Yes, I am aware of my music history. Gangsta "rap" didn't come first, that's not how hip hop was born.

Connected because coincidentally, people who were involved with the genre were also up to no good, the music isn't at fault, which is what Alfheim is disputing.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
The reason RAP music is stigmatized with gun crimes is because it is the music of choice of "gangstas" and has very clear lyrics. The exact same reason death metal is stigmatized and related to Hate crimes by skinheads and neo nazis.

Why capitalise "Rap"? It's called hip hop. It's all hip hop. I understand "rap" is an accepted term, but it's incorrect. Just make sure you're aware of that.

Either way, we're suggesting that it gets stigmatised, so that doesn't prove the music is at fault, it's not, and that's all I'm saying.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Music isn't to blame for what people do, people are to blame for what people do.

Hip hop is a genuine form of music and you're a fool for thinking otherwise. Like it or not, it's a genuine form of music.

That's like saying Britney Spears doesn't make music just because you dislike it.

-AC

I'd like to agree with AC and say that we have to give people credit enough to say that they are able to separate fictional reality from reality itself, and don't commit crimes based on Rap/hip-hop music, GTA games, or by watching I Know What You Did Last Summer.

That being said, I'd also like to take a shot while my window's open. I took a major dump last night and I have hereby proclaimed the conception of it as music.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I don't care that it doesn't help you. You're pissed that gun crime happens, well welcome to Planet Earth. It will always happen, I suggest you deal. I don't like it, but it will always be there.

Were not talking about gun crime in general. We are talking about gun crime in the black community.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Hip hop may be CITED as a factor, but it isn't to blame, at all. Music doesn't kill people.

Yes it is because most of the black people into gun crime are into hip hop. I know this from real life.



Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Figures are facts,

Well there not all the time actually but again since you love figures so much...I repeat..

Originally posted by Alfheim
Oh and the figures show that gun crime is growing amsongst black youth in london....those are the figures.






Originally posted by Alpha Centauri


what you've experienced does not overrule them, is my point.

You can't discard facts because you saw differently.

Ok let me explain this concept to you. Theory and practical. Theory states that such and such should happen, practical is an implementation of that theory....what happens sometimes is that the theory has to change because when you apply it in real life you see that some of the aspects of the theory is wrong.

What am saying is that my experiences are an example of practical and it shows its growing amongst black youth.



Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Have you just been born? Are you just discovering things for the first time?

Yes, crime happens everywhere.

-AC

Im not talking about gun crime in general im talking about crime amongst the black community.

If Hip Hop's to blame for any of this..blame it on the new Hip Hop culture. Not the music. Violence isn't Hip Hop. People kill people, not music.

Don't use a form of entertainment as a scapegoat for societies woes.

Originally posted by The Core
If Hip Hop's to blame for any of this..blame it on the new Hip Hop culture. Not the music. Violence isn't Hip Hop. People kill people, not music.

Don't use a form of entertainment as a scapegoat for societies woes.

Bro im not saying its the root cause but it is a factor.

Maybe, but, like I've mentioned in the music forums time and time again, "Hip Hop" is a shell of what it used to stand for. How it's represented in the mainstream now, isn't how it was ever intended to be perceived. Any element of Hip Hop being considered "mainstream" is the biggest tip off.

Originally posted by The Core
Maybe, but, like I've mentioned in the music forums time and time again, "Hip Hop" is a shell of what it used to stand for. How it's represented in the mainstream now, isn't how it was ever intended to be perceived.

Yeah I know that, but thats not whats happening now is it?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Were not talking about gun crime in general. We are talking about gun crime in the black community.

In London, you mean?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes it is because most of the black people into gun crime are into hip hop. I know this from real life.

No, you know it from your experiences. You don't know that for a fact, all encompassing. It's a gross generalisation.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well there not all the time actually but again since you love figures so much...I repeat..

Yes, proven statistics and figures are facts. No denying this.

Gun crime growing amongst black youths doesn't imply anything about hip hop MUSIC, at all.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok let me explain this concept to you. Theory and practical. Theory states that such and such should happen, practical is an implementation of that theory....what happens sometimes is that the theory has to change because when you apply it in real life you see that some of the aspects of the theory is wrong.

Theory isn't fact, it's theory. Proven stats are fact. Proven stats say it's an escalating situation in black community, so what? That means nothing in relation to music.

Originally posted by Alfheim
What am saying is that my experiences are an example of practical and it shows its growing amongst black youth.

Shows no connection to music, though. No factual link. Just coincidence.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's an accepted term, that doesn't make it a correct one.



MY genre? It's a genre that has a few artists I like, I'm not married to it. The fact that you are speaking about it and condemning it (Which is what you are doing.) without knowing anything about it besides what you see on TV just proves you're an ignorant fool.

If someone said "Rock is just screaming and stupid noise." because they heard some shitty bands, what would you say? Exactly.



-AC

I know quite a bit about the RAP world. At one time i was a blind fool whom followed the bandwagon of rap popularity. I can even recite the rappers believed to be the founding fathers. That however is not the point, i dont need to be a rap historian to know when the negative connotations started surrounding it. Of course gangsta rap came after the birth of hip hop, but the fact of the matter is, Gangsta rap gave hip hop the stigma of being responsible for fueling hate crimes in the world of inner city gangs.

Is t.v not a source of education? Assuming that is where i got my knowledge on the subject. Most Rap fans follow their favorite rappers and learn about the genre through t.v. My knowledge and views of Rap and it's connection to society come from living, being around the crowd that it inspires, and observing the type of language and actions that it inspires people to embrace.

I will forever refer to it as rap because to me, the actual rap is the only real thing on a rap album. hip hop is supposed to be a combination of rap and harminous beats to create music, and that music genre is hip hop. I dont consider beats to be music. This is my opinion. I may personally attack the genre, but i dont condem it. I'm not the one saying it is responsible for crimes and the dumbing down of a generation. I only attack the lagitimacy of the genre being considered music I could care less what you say about rock, i would listen to your views and debate them with you. I wouldnt attack your knowledge or intelligence. there is no way to gain a glimpse of your perspective this way.

The genre and the term has been bastardized. How can KRS-One & The Game be considered as the same form? Two different lyrical styles, two different LIFESTYLES, which is what gets me. One advocates knowledge, the other? Violence.

In the end, they're guilty by association? Why can't we just blame PEOPLE for what goes on? I remember the whole Tupac incident where the kid was supposedly "driven to kill" by his music.

There are kids that want to immulate the lifestyle of "Hip Hop" artists.
Note the quotations because I use the term as loosely as it's freely thrown upon artists that are considered in the same game. What's being represented by said artists IS..NOT..HIP..HOP.

That's why I'm proud, in my mind, that I can distinguish the true heads from those who took advantage of the "ugly" Rap tag being dropped by the media. The same media that wants to place the blame on those evil, evil Hip Hoppers.

It's all just bullshit, like I said. People kill people out of being a product of their environment. Music is entertainment. You see Ice Cube's making a sequel to "Are We There Yet?". He's an entertainer. His music is a form of entertainment. Glorifications abound. Cultural, financial, whatever.

Make the distinction here and place the blame where it really belongs. It's like a neverending witchhunt.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
In London, you mean?


Everywhere and in partcularly London, obvoulsy because I live here.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

No, you know it from your experiences. You don't know that for a fact, all encompassing. It's a gross generalisation.

So that doesnt count for anything. Im just supposed to ignore it.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Yes, proven statistics and figures are facts. No denying this.

Er if you say so..but it works fine for me.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Gun crime growing amongst black youths doesn't imply anything about hip hop MUSIC, at all.

Ok so let me get this straight.......gun crime is growing amongst black youth in london most of them listen to hip hop...or garage as we call it in the Uk. The music glorfies the use of guns and there is no connection?


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Theory isn't fact, it's theory. Proven stats are fact. Proven stats say it's an escalating situation in black community, so what? That means nothing in relation to music.

Bro...you dont know stats are used to create theory? Anyway I was just trying to draw an analogy you completely missed my point....i dont think I want to explain again.

Again....


Ok so let me get this straight.......gun crime is growing amongst black youth in london most of them listen to hip hop...or garage as we call it in the Uk. The music glorfies the use of guns and there is no connection?




Originally posted by Alpha Centauri


Shows no connection to music, though. No factual link. Just coincidence.

-AC

Why am I going to bother to get you a link so far you're wasting my time...I mean I can get you one link, but as far as I can see you're just beign argumentative.

Hell if gun crime is increasing amongst balck youth and hip hop is the most popular music...which glorifies guns....and you're telling me there is no connection, you are obvoulsy in denail.

Originally posted by The Core
The genre and the term has been bastardized. How can KRS-One & The Game be considered as the same form? Two different lyrical styles, two different LIFESTYLES, which is what gets me. One advocates knowledge, the other? Violence.

In the end, they're guilty by association? Why can't we just blamePEOPLE for what goes on? I remember the whole Tupac incident where the kid was supposedly "driven to kill" by his music.

There are kids that want to immulate the lifestyle of "Hip Hop" artists.
Note the quotations because I use the term as loosely as it's freely thrown upon artists that are considered in the same game. What's being represented by said artists IS..NOT..HIP..HOP.

That's why I'm proud, in my mind, that I can distinguish the true heads from those who took advantage of the "ugly" Rap tag being dropped by the media. The same media that wants to place the blame on those evil, evil Hip Hoppers.

It's all just bullshit, like I said. People kill people out of being a product of their environment. Music is entertainment. You see Ice Cube's making a sequel to "Are We There Yet?". He's an entertainer. His music is a form of entertainment. Glorifications abound. Cultural, financial, whatever.

Make the distinction here and place the blame where it really belongs. It's like a neverending witchhunt.

I understand the distcintion and we are arguing about nothing.
Furthermore I know even in the presnet day not all hip hop is about guns.

I dont think there is anything there which you said which I dont agree with.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
I know quite a bit about the RAP world. At one time i was a blind fool whom followed the bandwagon of rap popularity. I can even recite the rappers believed to be the founding fathers. That however is not the point, i dont need to be a rap historian to know when the negative connotations started surrounding it. Of course gangsta rap came after the birth of hip hop, but the fact of the matter is, Gangsta rap gave hip hop the stigma of being responsible for fueling hate crimes in the world of inner city gangs.

You are a blind fool and apparantly you have no real knowledge outside of what's been fed to you. For one, the laziness of calling it "rap" and painting all MCs with a single brush.

Nobody is denying the connotations, but that's all they are. There's no signficant connection.

You're being stupid making comments saying that hip hop isn't real music. Of course it's real music you fool.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
Is t.v not a source of education? Assuming that is where i got my knowledge on the subject. Most Rap fans follow their favorite rappers and learn about the genre through t.v.

Which is precisely why most "rap" fans think 50 Cent and Lloyd Banks are true hip hop, which is probably the people and music you are thinking of.

If you let TV tell you what to call things and who to look at as representatives of a genre, then you're being ignorant.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
My knowledge and views of Rap and it's connection to society come from living, being around the crowd that it inspires, and observing the type of language and actions that it inspires people to embrace.

A crowd. There isn't a specific crowd of people it inspires.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
I will forever refer to it as rap because to me, the actual rap is the only real thing on a rap album. hip hop is supposed to be a combination of rap and harminous beats to create music, and that music genre is hip hop. I dont consider beats to be music. This is my opinion. I may personally attack the genre, but i dont condem it. I'm not the one saying it is responsible for crimes and the dumbing down of a generation. I only attack the lagitimacy of the genre being considered music I could care less what you say about rock, i would listen to your views and debate them with you. I wouldnt attack your knowledge or intelligence. there is no way to gain a glimpse of your perspective this way.

Rapping is just an act, it's not a genre. The genre is hip hop which contains the act of rapping. Rap is an accepted term for the genre, I accept that you use it, but the fact that you seem to believe it's a CORRECT label suggests you don't know what you're on about.

You are wrong, though, in saying beats can't be music. As long as there is a human touch applied to the creation of music, that's what it will be. The fact that you think music can only exist if there's people playing instruments is retarded and archaic. If you went back to when music was first created and showed them an electric guitar, I'm sure they'd say about guitars what you are saying about electronically created beats.

So no, you holding that opinion does not bestow upon you some kind of magical barrier. You're wrong and you're illogical, it's not a matter of what you AREN'T saying, because what you ARE saying is false.

-AC

See why using "Hip Hop" as an all encompassing genre tag really exasperates things? Who in the bloody hell decided to change that, anyway?

Hip Hop CULTURE doesn't advocate or glorify violence. Hip Hop MUSIC may, which is ridiculous because you can't use the term two describe two totally different things, blame one, and not have the other be equally as guilty.

It's just sad how the term's being misued, and for monetary gain, so it seems.

Originally posted by The Core
See why using "Hip Hop" as an all encompassing genre tag really exasperates things? Who in the bloody hell decided to change that, anyway?

Hip Hop CULTURE doesn't advocate or glorify violence. Hip Hop MUSIC may, which is ridiculous because you can't use the term two describe two totally different things, blame one, and not have the other be equally as guilty.

It's just sad how the term's being misued, and for monetary gain, so it seems.

By the way did you see my edited post.

Studio Gangters talk shit.

Real Gangters kill people.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Everywhere and in partcularly London, obvoulsy because I live here.

I live in London too, but the fact remains that you're basing things purely on experience.

Originally posted by Alfheim
So that doesnt count for anything. Im just supposed to ignore it.

No, you're just not supposed to assume that because you don't know any different, that your experiences are all there is.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Er if you say so..but it works fine for me.

No, you can't deny proven statistics. What part do you not get?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok so let me get this straight.......gun crime is growing amongst black youth in london most of them listen to hip hop...or garage as we call it in the Uk. The music glorfies the use of guns and there is no connection?

Garage is an entirely different genre of music, Alf. It's nothing like hip hop, so that proves my point further. I know most of London's well known "garage" acts personally or at least know OF them, and back in the day when garage was a sensation here, there was coincidentally a lot of people going around mugging other people. These people often had connections to, or were involved in, the UK garage culture. That doesn't mean the music is to blame, it means they're bad people.

The fact is, the MUSIC isn't doing ANYTHING. The culture that the people MAKING the music represent, might be a factor, but the music itself is not.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Bro...you dont know stats are used to create theory? Anyway I was just trying to draw an analogy you completely missed my point....i dont think I want to explain again.

You prove theory with fact also.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Again....

Ok so let me get this straight.......gun crime is growing amongst black youth in london most of them listen to hip hop...or garage as we call it in the Uk. The music glorfies the use of guns and there is no connection?

Between the culture? Perhaps. Between the music? No. The music is a catalyst to promote the culture, the message IN the music causes idiots to go and do stuff, but it's not the music's fault because there are people out there who listen to that same music and do nothing.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Why am I going to bother to get you a link so far you're wasting my time...I mean I can get you one link, but as far as I can see you're just beign argumentative.

No, you're trying to say the music is, in some way, directly responsible. It's not. The culture, maybe.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Hell if gun crime is increasing amongst balck youth and hip hop is the most popular music...which glorifies guns....and you're telling me there is no connection, you are obvoulsy in denail.

A) You're confusing hip hop with garage.

B) I'm telling you the culture is connected, not the music.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You are a blind fool and apparantly you have no real knowledge outside of what's been fed to you. For one, the laziness of calling it "rap" and painting all MCs with a single brush.

Nobody is denying the connotations, but that's all they are. There's no signficant connection.

You're being stupid making comments saying that hip hop isn't real music. Of course it's real music you fool.



Which is precisely why most "rap" fans think 50 Cent and Lloyd Banks are true hip hop, which is probably the people and music you are thinking of.

If you let TV tell you what to call things and who to look at as representatives of a genre, then you're being ignorant.



A crowd. There isn't a specific crowd of people it inspires.



Rapping is just an act, it's not a genre. The genre is hip hop which contains the act of rapping. Rap is an accepted term for the genre, I accept that you use it, but the fact that you seem to believe it's a CORRECT label suggests you don't know what you're on about.

You are wrong, though, in saying beats can't be music. As long as there is a human touch applied to the creation of music, that's what it will be. The fact that you think music can only exist if there's people playing instruments is retarded and archaic. If you went back to when music was first created and showed them an electric guitar, I'm sure they'd say about guitars what you are saying about electronically created beats.

So no, you holding that opinion does not bestow upon you some kind of magical barrier. You're wrong and you're illogical, it's not a matter of what you AREN'T saying, because what you ARE saying is false.

-AC

first off, i havent been fed anything. I have observed. The laziness you speak of. Is a personall choice to call Hip hop rap. I fully understand the difference, but refuse to dignify it by refering to rap as hip hop, because that would then be accepting hip hop as music. I do not see it that way. So the ignorance you speak of is a conscious educated opinion. I guess you failed to comprehend this through the many remarks i made explaining this. I fear however that we have gotten far off point here. We are not debating whether rap should be considered music.

I fail to see your point in saying connotaions surrounding rap are nothing more than connotations. These connotations are very serious in the world of rap. They give sensors, and anti music organizations ground to relate rap to gun crimes.

I dont let t.v tell me who to look at as representatives. I look at the most popular artists and producers that plague the genre. What you consider to be real hip hop may not be the artists giving it an acknowledged relevance.

there is no specific crowd that hip hop inspires? Wow, you must be the one who is blind. There is a distinct difference between fans of music genres. these groups of fans can catagorized into a crowd. Living in detroit and california, i have never met "gangstas" who listened to britney spears. All types of music find a crowd of people, or rather the people find the music as a way of expression. Art inspires people to do many things. Music being a form of art definently has inspired people to do a great deal of many things, both positive and negative. the same way literature can inspire. I am not trying to say that the inspirer is at fault however. The inspiration only stirred an already existing passion or emotion inside the person

A guitar is an instrument, and trying to compare it to an electric synthesizer is complete ignorance that does not even warrant debate. you cannot add new already created sounds to a guitar.

Originally posted by RedAlertv2
Cut the musical ignorance dude

I think its musically ignorant to say that hip hop culture (not hip hop itself) has no negative impact on society.

Hip hop needs to get back to its roots of speaking for the unspoken and standing up. Artists AND Labels need to promote this.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I live in London too, but the fact remains that you're basing things purely on experience.



South London?????

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

No, you're just not supposed to assume that because you don't know any different, that your experiences are all there is.


Well if you listen carefully to what im saying its not just my experiences but its the facts and figures as well. If I get on the bus and hear black kids frequently saying this guy got shot AND they say on the news that gun crime is increasing its a double whammy

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

No, you can't deny proven statistics. What part do you not get?


Yeah because facts are disproven all the time, but at the dnf of they day figures say that gun crime is increasing.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Garage is an entirely different genre of music, Alf. It's nothing like hip hop, so that proves my point further.



Er no I dont think so somehow, thats maybe because there are different types of Garage but you dont have to be a genuis to see that some forms of Garage are influenced by hip hop...eg Lethal Bizzle his music may not be classified as rap but it obvoulsy is infulenced by it.



Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

I know most of London's well known "garage" acts personally or at least know OF them, and back in the day when garage was a sensation here, there was coincidentally a lot of people going around mugging other people. These people often had connections to, or were involved in, the UK garage culture.
That doesn't mean the music is to blame, it means they're bad people.


Yeah so why is it you can go to other music scenes and none that stuff happens?


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

The fact is, the MUSIC isn't doing ANYTHING.

Rubbish.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

The culture that the people MAKING the music represent, might be a factor, but the music itself is not.

Do you want to analyse tthis statement. You do realise that the people making the music are going to heavily influence the music? Its like saying if you have dirt on your hand and try to make a cake that no dirt will get into it.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

You prove theory with fact also.

Yeah and....sorry mate you still ahvent really grasped what I was trying to say...anyway nevermind.




Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Between the culture? Perhaps. Between the music?

Im sorry but now you're getting confused. You cant sepearte music from culture you do know my defintion music is part of what makes up culture.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

No. The music is a catalyst to promote the culture, the message IN the music causes idiots to go and do stuff,

Yeah and why is there that message in that music? Because these people rap about their life, they rap about their culture and they put it into the music. You cant seperate the two.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

but it's not the music's fault because there are people out there who listen to that same music and do nothing.

No that just proves that some people will have integrity not matter what.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

No, you're trying to say the music is, in some way, directly responsible. It's not. The culture, maybe.

See what I said above.



Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

A) You're confusing hip hop with garage.

Er no maybe you misunderstood me. Garage is a seperate form of music but you can see some forms of Garage are influenced by hip hop and have inherited the negativity as well.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri


B) I'm telling you the culture is connected, not the music.

-AC

Absolute nonsense. Culture has a direct influence on music. Culture is about life and rappers tend to rap about their life.

You know what this remind me of. I was watching this program about Garage. According to this guy people where apprehensive to promote Garage events because everytime there was one trhey would wreck the place.....but at the sametime when people where being negative about the music he would complain that they were being picked on.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
first off, i havent been fed anything. I have observed. The laziness you speak of. Is a personall choice to call Hip hop rap. I fully understand the difference, but refuse to dignify it by refering to rap as hip hop, because that would then be accepting hip hop as music. I do not see it that way.

The fact is, hip hop is a music genre, it is music. I'm not sure why you believe you have the right to just ignore and deny that a type of music exists simply because you do not like it. That's pathetic.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
So the ignorance you speak of is a conscious educated opinion. I guess you failed to comprehend this through the many remarks i made explaining this. I fear however that we have gotten far off point here. We are not debating whether rap should be considered music.

Educated? You're attempting to say hip hop isn't music because you believe it's made on computers and therefore isn't music. Wrong for so many reasons. Some of which I'll explain later, but one I'll share with you now; You think all hip hop is made WITHOUT instruments, and yet you call your opinion educated? No, you're very far from educated and even further from credible.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
I fail to see your point in saying connotaions surrounding rap are nothing more than connotations. These connotations are very serious in the world of rap. They give sensors, and anti music organizations ground to relate rap to gun crimes.

So what? They can connect hip hop to gun crime all they like, the music isn't to blame. They connect Slipknot to Columbine, Manson to suicide, Prince to homosexuality.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
I dont let t.v tell me who to look at as representatives. I look at the most popular artists and producers that plague the genre. What you consider to be real hip hop may not be the artists giving it an acknowledged relevance.

Precisely, you look at who TV and idiots have made popular and base your opinion on that purely because you lack the desire to research further. If you don't care about the genre, fine, that's up to you, but don't attempt to discredit it based on what you see when you've made no effort to do any further research. That's just ignorant.

Public Enemy, El-P, MF Doom, Cannibal Ox, Pharoahe Monch, Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five, The Cold Crush Bros, Kool Keith. These are hip hop artists, true hip hop artists. 50 Cent etc are not.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
there is no specific crowd that hip hop inspires? Wow, you must be the one who is blind. There is a distinct difference between fans of music genres. these groups of fans can catagorized into a crowd. Living in detroit and california, i have never met "gangstas" who listened to britney spears. All types of music find a crowd of people, or rather the people find the music as a way of expression. Art inspires people to do many things. Music being a form of art definently has inspired people to do a great deal of many things, both positive and negative. the same way literature can inspire. I am not trying to say that the inspirer is at fault however. The inspiration only stirred an already existing passion or emotion inside the person

Haha, so...hip hop inspires a specific crowd just because music genres attract different people? How generalising do you want to be here?

For one thing, I never said hip hop fans were the same as metal fans or rock fans, I was just saying that they do not necessarily attract typical crowds. You don't need to be a black man living in NYC to like hip hop, you don't need to be a blonde Norwegian to like metal. Hip hop appeals to all different people, especially real hip hop.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
A guitar is an instrument, and trying to compare it to an electric synthesizer is complete ignorance that does not even warrant debate. you cannot add new already created sounds to a guitar.

You're suggesting synthesizers aren't instruments now? What a mug. Of course they are. You'll be saying keyboards aren't instruments next.

Aphex Twin isn't music? Aphex Twin is more computer based than any hip hop and yet Richard D. James is regarded as one of the most pioneering figures in music. You obviously believe that if it's not made with guitar, drums or bass, it's not music and it's not an instrument.

"Educated opinion." Hahaha.

-AC

Originally posted by Alfheim
South London?????

East.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well if you listen carefully to what im saying its not just my experiences but its the facts and figures as well. If I get on the bus and hear black kids frequently saying this guy got shot AND they say on the news that gun crime is increasing its a double whammy

Yes, and that proves that it's your experience. If that's ALL you hear it doesn't mean that's all there is.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah because facts are disproven all the time, but at the dnf of they day figures say that gun crime is increasing.

Facts are never proven wrong, that's why they are facts, you fool.

Gun crime is increasing, that was never my argument.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Er no I dont think so somehow, thats maybe because there are different types of Garage but you dont have to be a genuis to see that some forms of Garage are influenced by hip hop...eg Lethal Bizzle his music may not be classified as rap but it obvoulsy is infulenced by it.

You said hip hop is known as garage over here, not that it was influenced by it. UK hip hop and UK garage are two entirely different genres.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah so why is it you can go to other music scenes and none that stuff happens?

Excuse me, I believe I just saw you suggest that no other music genre has violent connotations.

There's this genre called black metal...maybe you should research it.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Rubbish.

It's not. CDs aren't killing people, music isn't killing people, it's not to blame for how idiots interpret it.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Do you want to analyse tthis statement. You do realise that the people making the music are going to heavily influence the music? Its like saying if you have dirt on your hand and try to make a cake that no dirt will get into it.

I'm not saying people can't put negative messages in music, I'm saying that the music isn't to blame for that, nor how someone interprets or acts on those messages.

If you go and shoot someone cos an MC said so, it's not the music's fault, it's yours for being an idiot.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah and....sorry mate you still ahvent really grasped what I was trying to say...anyway nevermind.

I have, it's just dumb, like everything else you've said.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Im sorry but now you're getting confused. You cant sepearte music from culture you do know my defintion music is part of what makes up culture.

Your definition of music counts for shit against the real definition of music, and its involvement in what you are trying to pin on it. Sorry.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah and why is there that message in that music? Because these people rap about their life, they rap about their culture and they put it into the music. You cant seperate the two.

Yes, you can. People live that life even if they don't listen to hip hop or garage or anything like that.

Originally posted by Alfheim
No that just proves that some people will have integrity not matter what.

It proves that music cannot make people do things, people do things of their own accord. No song can make you shoot someone. You listen to the song and decide to shoot someone as a result, it's not making you do it, the will to kill was there beforehand.

Originally posted by Alfheim
See what I said above.

Dusted.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Er no maybe you misunderstood me. Garage is a seperate form of music but you can see some forms of Garage are influenced by hip hop and have inherited the negativity as well.

How is that relevant? You said: "most of them listen to hip hop...or garage as we call it in the Uk". We don't call garage, hip hop. Garage is garage, hip hop is hip hop.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Absolute nonsense. Culture has a direct influence on music. Culture is about life and rappers tend to rap about their life.

Yes, but the music itself isn't actually doing anything.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
There's this genre called black metal...maybe you should research it.

-AC

I'm trying to avoid reading this thread, but skimming it I did see a shout out for black metal, and it reminded me of when I was 13 years old and listening to Venom - the creators and masters of black metal. Ah, the memories.

Here's the website in case anyone wants to do some research:

http://www.venomslegions.com/

Originally posted by botankus
I'm trying to avoid reading this thread, but skimming it I did see a shout out for black metal, and it reminded me of when I was 13 years old and listening to Venom - the creators and masters of black metal. Ah, the memories.

Good band. I think Emperor are the masters of "black metal", although they incorporate more styles. Venom obviously started the genre and coined the phrase, though.

Anyway, that's even more off-topic.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The fact is, hip hop is a music genre, it is music. I'm not sure why you believe you have the right to just ignore and deny that a type of music exists simply because you do not like it. That's pathetic.



Educated? You're attempting to say hip hop isn't music because you believe it's made on computers and therefore isn't music. Wrong for so many reasons. Some of which I'll explain later, but one I'll share with you now; You think all hip hop is made WITHOUT instruments, and yet you call your opinion educated? No, you're very far from educated and even further from credible.



So what? They can connect hip hop to gun crime all they like, the music isn't to blame. They connect Slipknot to Columbine, Manson to suicide, Prince to homosexuality.



Precisely, you look at who TV and idiots have made popular and base your opinion on that purely because you lack the desire to research further. If you don't care about the genre, fine, that's up to you, but don't attempt to discredit it based on what you see when you've made no effort to do any further research. That's just ignorant.

Public Enemy, El-P, MF Doom, Cannibal Ox, Pharoahe Monch, Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five, The Cold Crush Bros, Kool Keith. These are hip hop artists, true hip hop artists. 50 Cent etc are not.



Haha, so...hip hop inspires a specific crowd just because music genres attract different people? How generalising do you want to be here?

For one thing, I never said hip hop fans were the same as metal fans or rock fans, I was just saying that they do not necessarily attract typical crowds. You don't need to be a black man living in NYC to like hip hop, you don't need to be a blonde norwegian to like metal. Hip hop appeals to all different people, especially real hip hop.



You're suggesting synthesizers aren't instruments now? What a mug. Of course they are. You'll be saying keyboards aren't instruments next.

Aphex Twin isn't music? Aphex Twin is more computer based than any hip hop and yet Richard D. James is regarded as one of the most pioneering figures in music. You obviously believe that if it's not made with guitar, drums or bass, it's not music and it's not an instrument.

"Educated opinion." Hahaha.

-AC

i think you have gravely misdirected my points into an offensive attack

If you would have gotten my points you would have understood that i acknowledge hip hop as being music, just refuse to call it that because i despise it. this is more of humorous action on my part than anything. If you seriously want to challenge musical awarness and education then we can do that. I have no problem educating an arogant rap fan boy, in music theory. That was just a joke, just thought you would appreciate the assumed personal characteristic, seeing how you were the one who started throwing around termas like ignorant and blind. When i was trying agree with your views. We just got lost in the debate of opinions.

i know very well that many progressive hip hop artists try to incoorperate intruments into their "music" in hopes to give their genre credibility. Fact of the matter is, most of mainstream rap is nothing more than beats derived from a sound board

I was agreeing with you about the negative connotations. No where did i say that they give creedence to the argument that rap is to blame for a rise in gun crimes. however, they still give the people who believe that rap is to blame relevance. Just like any other music, just like death metal and hate crimes, rock and anarchy loving teens, pop and the sudden infatuation with self image.

and yes, rap does inspire a specific crowd. Just as all music inspires the specific crowds that they attract. Country is not going to give me any kind of artistic inspiration because it does not appeal to me. Music is art, and art inspires people, the group of people that it attracts.
just as movies, literature and all forms of art inspire. How is this generalising? Do you deny this to be true? Rap inspires the community it attracts just as rock tends to inspire me, i am apart of a crowd, the rock crowd.
Yes, it's true that you dont have to be apart of certain crowd to enjoy rap, but denying that their are certain groups of people it attracts, to me is not accepting a fact.

I completely understand that mainstream music can be very different than the secondary market, but is it not true that the mainstream is what dictates a certain music genre's image? By observing the current artists who top the charts in rock, you can get a general idea of the type of image that it projects on it's listeners.

No, i dont consider a synthesizer an instrument. I have very different standard of what an instrument is than most people. When you go to a renowned music school to major in music, a synthesizer is no where in the curriculum or required playing.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
i think you have gravely misdirected my points into an offensive attack

I find your ignorance and presumptuous nature gravely offensive. Whether or not you intended to offend, it would appear not.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
If you would have gotten my points you would have understood that i acknowledge hip hop as being music, just refuse to call it that because i despise it. this is more of humorous action on my part than anything. If you seriously want to challenge musical awarness and education then we can do that. I have no problem educating an arogant rap fan boy, in music theory. That was just a joke, just thought you would appreciate the assumed personal characteristic, seeing how you were the one who started throwing around termas like ignorant and blind. When i was trying agree with your views. We just got lost in the debate of opinions.

Then your "humourous" action is still ignorant, but at leasy you acknowledge it.

Arrogant "rap" fanboy? You're genuinely funny. I like some hip hop, I don't dedicate myself to any one genre because there's no point. I'm a music fan, not a genre fan. To assume you of all people could educate ME on MUSIC, that in itself is funny. Especially coming from Mr. Synths aren't instruments.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
i know very well that many progressive hip hop artists try to incoorperate intruments into their "music" in hopes to give their genre credibility. Fact of the matter is, most of mainstream rap is nothing more than beats derived from a sound board.

Which is precisely why mainstream hip hop is entirely shit and pathetic, and why I suggested you do a bit more research than branding the ENTIRE genre because you're a lazy idiot.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
I was agreeing with you about the negative connotations. No where did i say that they give creedence to the argument that rap is to blame for a rise in gun crimes. however, they still give the people who believe that rap is to blame relevance. Just like any other music, just like death metal and hate crimes, rock and anarchy loving teens, pop and the sudden infatuation with self image.

Yeah, and the people who make those connections are fools.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
and yes, rap does inspire a specific crowd. Just as all music inspires the specific crowds that they attract. Country is not going to give me any kind of artistic inspiration because it does not appeal to me. Music is art, and art inspires people, the group of people that it attracts.
just as movies, literature and all forms of art inspire. How is this generalising? Do you deny this to be true? Rap inspires the community it attracts just as rock tends to inspire me, i am apart of a crowd, the rock crowd.

Hip hop music inspires me because I like the music. I don't buy music to relate to lyrics, if that's what you're talking about. A majority of the black community in areas such as Los Angeles could relate to N.W.A etc because their LYRICS referred to common ground, either from a participant or spectator point of view. The MUSIC doesn't specifically refer to anything, and therefore draws far less of a specific crowd than the lyricism does.

Tool probably have a lot of fans who enjoy the occult, ritual magick or spirituality because it's dealt with in some of the lyrics, but that doesn't mean their music attracts those people, because their music is just...their music.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
Yes, it's true that you dont have to be apart of certain crowd to enjoy rap, but denying that their are certain groups of people it attracts, to me is not accepting a fact.

I'm not denying that, I'm denying that the MUSIC ITSELF attracts some specific group of people.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
I completely understand that mainstream music can be very different than the secondary market, but is it not true that the mainstream is what dictates a certain music genre's image? By observing the current artists who top the charts in rock, you can get a general idea of the type of image that it projects on it's listeners.

If that's the area you are focusing on, mainstream, then judge mainstream fans and people who love only mainstream music, and don't judge any other kind of music.

Judging rock music based on a Nickleback song is dumb, isn't it? Judging metal based on...I don't know...any shit mainstream metal band, is dumb. Because that's usually very far from what's true in the alleged genre. You get the odd exception; Foo Fighters being a rock band in one of the truest forms, like Queen. That doesn't mean all rock is how you see it.

That's just part of human arrogance; "There's nothing I can possibly be unaware of.". I get what you're saying; By looking at 50 Cent etc, you get an idea of what image it is presenting entirely independent of the music, but my point is, don't judge the genre based on those bastardising it. That's not "educated".

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
No, i dont consider a synthesizer an instrument. I have very different standard of what an instrument is than most people. When you go to a renowned music school to major in music, a synthesizer is no where in the curriculum or required playing.

Quite easily one of the single most unbelievable statements I've read on this site.

The reason it's not usually taught is because in comparison, it's a newer instrument. Synths, keyboards, they all come from piano. Eddie Van Halen, one of the greatest guitarists ever, considers synth an instrument.

The reason it's called synth is because it comes from the word "synthetic", as in artificial. The sound is artificial in that it isn't traditionally produced, but it's still a musical instrument. Just not a traditional one.

Music "schools" are just about the biggest travesty in music. Music isn't about staring at one part of the picture so much that you miss the bigger painting, which is exactly what music school has done to you. Aphex Twin is more creative than anything Avenged Sevenfold have come up with, and their guitarist has a degree in music. Richard D. James has nothing, and most of it is done on a computer. Yet he receives more critical acclaim for innovation and perception from the world musical community than most of the traditional bands you see today.

Then there's some music school pretentia-boy that'd say he's not a musician or that he doesn't use instruments.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
East.

Good for you.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Yes, and that proves that it's your experience. If that's ALL you hear it doesn't mean that's all there is.

Yes but if you see what else I said...its my experiences AND the figures.



Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Facts are never proven wrong, that's why they are facts, you fool.


Oh ok so something that was previoulsy a fact has never been proven wrong.....whats that? Yeah I thought as much.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

You said hip hop is known as garage over here, not that it was influenced by it. UK hip hop and UK garage are two entirely different genres.


My bad.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Excuse me, I believe I just saw you suggest that no other music genre has violent connotations.

Not exactly was I was saying is that I dont know of any other scenes that have as much violence actualy happening in their scene as much as hip hop...or garage...which to me is just another form of hip hop because of the influence.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

There's this genre called black metal...maybe you should research it.



Er dont need to know I know about Mayhem and all that...I am primarly concerned with London because I live here. I dont live in Norway and yeah there is actually violence in the black metal scene. So that proves my point that sometimes lyrics can have an affect on peoples attitude.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

It's not. CDs aren't killing people, music isn't killing people, it's not to blame for how idiots interpret it.


Do you want to answer why is it there alot of violence which happens around hip hop?


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

I'm not saying people can't put negative messages in music, I'm saying that the music isn't to blame for that, nor how someone interprets or acts on those messages.

If you go and shoot someone cos an MC said so, it's not the music's fault, it's yours for being an idiot.

I know. The fcat of the matter is alot of hip hop and garage has alot stuff associated with guns and violence in the lyrics....but despite this gun crime is growing amongst the black youth. Its not a coincedence



Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

I have, it's just dumb, like everything else you've said.

No you haven't.



Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Your definition of music counts for shit against the real definition of music, and its involvement in what you are trying to pin on it. Sorry.


If you dont know that music come under the defintion of culture then I cant help you. You're talking about facts anybody who knows what he talking about knows that music comes under the defintion of culture you are just ignorant.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Yes, you can. People live that life even if they don't listen to hip hop or garage or anything like that.



Bro alot of serial killers experienced alot of abuse when they were younger, so you can see that one of the factors that can make somebody evil is abuse. Of course some people experience abuse but dont become twisted that doesnt mean that abuse isnt a factor that CAN make a person evil.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

It proves that music cannot make people do things, people do things of their own accord. No song can make you shoot someone. You listen to the song and decide to shoot someone as a result, it's not making you do it, the will to kill was there beforehand.

Well its like this the root cause is the breakdown of the family. Your right the music doesnt make them do anything. Its the fact that these kids dont live in a stable envinronment and dont have any role models. They look for role models and the problem is that the role models that they have are negative..




Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

How is that relevant? You said: "most of them listen to hip hop...or garage as we call it in the Uk". We don't call garage, hip hop. Garage is garage, hip hop is hip hop.


the point is that they're a similar.



Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Yes, but the music itself isn't actually doing anything.

-AC

Yeah but I dont understand. You have music with guns and crime but around this scene there is alof of guns and crime.

I repeat music is not the root cause of gun crime, its also the envinronment that these people are living in...what im saying is that the envinroment plus the music encourages them to pick up the guns.

To deny that the music has no influence whatsoever is to be in denial.

Furthermore some of thes people that are getting into guns are really young. Are you trying to tell me that if you're really young and you're surrounded by music that glorifies gun crime that its not going to influence you?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes but if you see what else I said...its my experiences AND the figures.

You're missing the point.

Is gun crime increasing? Yes. Is gun crime in the black community increasing (London)? Yes. Has it been discovered that the criminals listen to a certain kind of music? Yes.

What you fail to see is that the MUSIC itself, the sounds, that is not what is making them do it. The LYRICS aren't even making them do it. The lyrics talk about topics, it's then entirely the person's responsibility how they deal with that.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Oh ok so something that was previoulsy a fact has never been proven wrong.....whats that? Yeah I thought as much.

A fact is an undeniable truth. E.g: The Earth is round, the Sun is hot.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Not exactly was I was saying is that I dont know of any other scenes that have as much violence actualy happening in their scene as much as hip hop...or garage...which to me is just another form of hip hop because of the influence.

Well A) You're wrong.

B) That's wrong also. It's not another form of hip hop just because of the influence, it's an entirely different music genre.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Er dont need to know I know about Mayhem and all that...I am primarly concerned with London because I live here. I dont live in Norway and yeah there is actually violence in the black metal scene. So that proves my point that sometimes lyrics can have an affect on peoples attitude.

It wasn't the lyrics that did it, that's my point. It was nutcases with violent beliefs that USED lyrics referencing them and idiots either went out and did the same or just enjoyed the music. The music itself didn't do anything. Lyrics CAN have an effect on attitude, but that's because of the attitude, not the lyrics.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Do you want to answer why is it there alot of violence which happens around hip hop?

Because the culture from which some of its participants hail from happens to be a bit of a violent culture. The mindset comes first, then comes the act....or not. It's a choice.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I know. The fcat of the matter is alot of hip hop and garage has alot stuff associated with guns and violence in the lyrics....but despite this gun crime is growing amongst the black youth. Its not a coincedence

It's a coincidence that they listen to it, yes. If someone says "Garage lyrics made me do it.", they're an idiot. They didn't make you do anything.

Originally posted by Alfheim
No you haven't.

Tell yourself that if it makes you feel better.

Originally posted by Alfheim
If you dont know that music come under the defintion of culture then I cant help you. You're talking about facts anybody who knows what he talking about knows that music comes under the defintion of culture you are just ignorant.

Music can be part of culture, or culture can stem from music. E.g: The second wave of black metal (The wave seen as when it first became it's own, distinctive genre) came because of a violent culture. Whereas straight edge mentality/culture came out of music, a song, actually. It can work both ways.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Bro alot of serial killers experienced alot of abuse when they were younger, so you can see that one of the factors that can make somebody evil is abuse. Of course some people experience abuse but dont become twisted that doesnt mean that abuse isnt a factor that CAN make a person evil.

"Evil" is a choice. Abuse doesn't inherently make someone evil, you either choose to move on or you choose to act on its effects in a negative way. It's a choice.

If lyrics make you hate someone or something, that's bad, but you acting upon it is a choice. You can't control how something makes you feel, but you can control how you deal with those feelings.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well its like this the root cause is the breakdown of the family. Your right the music doesnt make them do anything. Its the fact that these kids dont live in a stable envinronment and dont have any role models. They look for role models and the problem is that the role models that they have are negative.

You're putting the cart before the horse again.

Bad kids like bad role models because they want to do bad things. When I was young and my cousin played N.W.A records or Wu Tang Clan records, I looked up to them as pioneering musical figures at the time, I didn't become a bad kid cos they spoke about the odd bad subject. Bad kids like bad things.

Originally posted by Alfheim
the point is that they're a similar.

Not really.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah but I dont understand. You have music with guns and crime but around this scene there is alof of guns and crime.

Yes, bad people are attracted to bad ideals. The point is, the bad is already there first, music doesn't make it happen, as I said two quotes above.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I repeat music is not the root cause of gun crime, its also the envinronment that these people are living in...what im saying is that the envinroment plus the music encourages them to pick up the guns.

The capacity to do bad is already there, is my point.

Originally posted by Alfheim
To deny that the music has no influence whatsoever is to be in denial.

Who said that? Not me.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Furthermore some of thes people that are getting into guns are really young. Are you trying to tell me that if you're really young and you're surrounded by music that glorifies gun crime that its not going to influence you?

Hence why I said it's stupid. Once you're 12 or older, you're old enough to know right from wrong (Or you should.) and in my eyes, you don't get off the hook because you "Don't know better.".

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You're missing the point.

Is gun crime increasing? Yes. Is gun crime in the black community increasing (London)? Yes. Has it been discovered that the criminals listen to a certain kind of music? Yes.

What you fail to see is that the MUSIC itself, the sounds, that is not what is making them do it. The LYRICS aren't even making them do it. The lyrics talk about topics, it's then entirely the person's responsibility how they deal with that.

I dont think I actually disagree with this.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

A fact is an undeniable truth. E.g: The Earth is round, the Sun is hot.


Yes im aware of that but at the end of the day there are some things that have been classified as facts and then disproven regardless of what you're defintion is. How did we get ont his anyway.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Well A) You're wrong.

If this is concerning violence in other scenes im refering mainly to london and especially south london. As far as I know other scenes in london dont have this problem.



Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

B) That's wrong also. It's not another form of hip hop just because of the influence, it's an entirely different music genre.


OK lethal bizzle has no similarity to hip hop does it?



Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

It wasn't the lyrics that did it, that's my point. It was nutcases with violent beliefs that USED lyrics referencing them and idiots either went out and did the same or just enjoyed the music. The music itself didn't do anything.


I'd totally agree with that

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Lyrics CAN have an effect on attitude, but that's because of the attitude, not the lyrics.

Come again.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Because the culture from which some of its participants hail from happens to be a bit of a violent culture. The mindset comes first, then comes the act....or not. It's a choice.


Anyway i wouldnt disagree with that anyway im getting tired.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

It's a coincidence that they listen to it, yes. If someone says "Garage lyrics made me do it.", they're an idiot. They didn't make you do anything.


No but it can be a factor, especally if you're in a certain envinronment.



Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Tell yourself that if it makes you feel better.

ok


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Music can be part of culture, or culture can stem from music. E.g: The second wave of black metal (The wave seen as when it first became it's own, distinctive genre) came because of a violent culture. Whereas straight edge mentality/culture came out of music, a song, actually. It can work both ways.



Er ok so if music stems from culture that that means its not part of that culture......its still part of the culture.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

"Evil" is a choice. Abuse doesn't inherently make someone evil, you either choose to move on or you choose to act on its effects in a negative way. It's a choice.

Yes but do you agree that violence can contribute to you being a violent person? This is what im saying...dont you think its easier to be positive if you are brought up in a positive envinroment? You admit that the lyrics in hip hop and garage can be negative dont you think if you have negative lyrics and a negative envinronment it can contribute?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

If lyrics make you hate someone or something, that's bad, but you acting upon it is a choice. You can't control how something makes you feel, but you can control how you deal with those feelings.



You're not telling me anything I dont know.





Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Bad kids like bad role models because they want to do bad things. When I was young and my cousin played N.W.A records or Wu Tang Clan records, I looked up to them as pioneering musical figures at the time, I didn't become a bad kid cos they spoke about the odd bad subject. Bad kids like bad things.

You're not telling me anything I dont know.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Not really.



Ok for example lethal bizzle doesnt sound anything like rap music? So sold crew doesnt sound anything like rap music.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Yes, bad people are attracted to bad ideals. The point is, the bad is already there first, music doesn't make it happen, as I said two quotes above.



The capacity to do bad is already there, is my point.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Who said that? Not me.

Well whats the problem?




Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Hence why I said it's stupid. Once you're 12 or older, you're old enough to know right from wrong (Or you should.) and in my eyes, you don't get off the hook because you "Don't know better.".

-AC

Ok so when youre 12 you're mature now? Dont you think at 12 its alot easier to be influenced? You're trying to make out that all 12 year olds are very mature.

You might not have gun out and mugged people at 12 but im sure you've done some stuff at that age which you wouldnt do now.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes im aware of that but at the end of the day there are some things that have been classified as facts and then disproven regardless of what you're defintion is. How did we get ont his anyway.

Then they were never facts.

Originally posted by Alfheim
If this is concerning violence in other scenes im refering mainly to london and especially south london. As far as I know other scenes in london dont have this problem.

Precisely. As far as you know. It's experience, and you lack this.

Originally posted by Alfheim
OK lethal bizzle has no similarity to hip hop does it?

Not the original stuff he did, the original stuff he did was garage. When he tried to make hip hop, obviously it sounded more like mainstream hip hop. Everything he's done has been one thing, though; Shit.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Come again.

I worded that a bit unclear, sorry. What I meant was that lyrics can't create an attitude. The attitude is already there, if it's mirrored in the music then it's nothing more than an excuse.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Anyway i wouldnt disagree with that anyway im getting tired.

You were, which is why we're debating.

Originally posted by Alfheim
No but it can be a factor, especally if you're in a certain envinronment.

Yes, but you have to remember why it's a factor.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Er ok so if music stems from culture that that means its not part of that culture......its still part of the culture.

Read it again. There are cultures that are born of music and music genres that are born out of a culture.

For example, the straight edge lifestyle was created by Ian Mackaye of Minor Threat in the song Straight Edge. The song wasn't part of the culture in general, it created a culture because of it's ideas. People who didn't even like the song happened to agree with what it was about. Therefore, straight edge culture wasn't necessarily full of people who liked straight edge musicians/music.

In the case of garage, it's opposite. Out of a culture, people started making that kind of music, modern garage anyway. So it comes back to it being an attitude first.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes but do you agree that violence can contribute to you being a violent person? This is what im saying...dont you think its easier to be positive if you are brought up in a positive envinroment? You admit that the lyrics in hip hop and garage can be negative dont you think if you have negative lyrics and a negative envinronment it can contribute?

Of course it can, but it is a choice. Nobody's fate is sealed by being raised in a bad way. That's precisely why the connotations are just that, because it all depends on the person's reaction. Negative lyrics get blamed for someone CHOOSING to interpret them literally or in a bad way. They shouldn't, the person should. Musicians are ultimately only responsible for themselves.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok for example lethal bizzle doesnt sound anything like rap music?

See my previous reply about that.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well whats the problem?

What do you mean? I never denied music was influential.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok so when youre 12 you're mature now? Dont you think at 12 its alot easier to be influenced? You're trying to make out that all 12 year olds are very mature.

I'm not saying that at all, I'm saying at 12 or older, maybe even younger, you have clear notions of what you should do and what you shouldn't do. Seeing as we're talking about gun crime, though, we must be talking early teens, in which case they DEFINITELY know that what they're doing isn't good, but they do it because they're bad kids.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Then they were never facts.



Precisely. As far as you know. It's experience, and you lack this.



Not the original stuff he did, the original stuff he did was garage. When he tried to make hip hop, obviously it sounded more like mainstream hip hop. Everything he's done has been one thing, though; Shit.



I worded that a bit unclear, sorry. What I meant was that lyrics can't create an attitude. The attitude is already there, if it's mirrored in the music then it's nothing more than an excuse.



You were, which is why we're debating.



Yes, but you have to remember why it's a factor.



Read it again. There are cultures that are born of music and music genres that are born out of a culture.

For example, the straight edge lifestyle was created by Ian Mackaye of Minor Threat in the song Straight Edge. The song wasn't part of the culture in general, it created a culture because of it's ideas. People who didn't even like the song happened to agree with what it was about. Therefore, straight edge culture wasn't necessarily full of people who liked straight edge musicians/music.

In the case of garage, it's opposite. Out of a culture, people started making that kind of music, modern garage anyway. So it comes back to it being an attitude first.



Of course it can, but it is a choice. Nobody's fate is sealed by being raised in a bad way. That's precisely why the connotations are just that, because it all depends on the person's reaction. Negative lyrics get blamed for someone CHOOSING to interpret them literally or in a bad way. They shouldn't, the person should. Musicians are ultimately only responsible for themselves.



See my previous reply about that.



What do you mean? I never denied music was influential.



I'm not saying that at all, I'm saying at 12 or older, maybe even younger, you have clear notions of what you should do and what you shouldn't do. Seeing as we're talking about gun crime, though, we must be talking early teens, in which case they DEFINITELY know that what they're doing isn't good, but they do it because they're bad kids.

-AC

I'll respond to this later im really too tired right now. probably respond on Monday.

At any rate I dont think getting rid of hip hop will get rid of gun crime it just seems that hip hop seems to attracts alot of ***holes...sorry.

Don't be sorry, if you believe that then that's up to you.

If your experience has made you believe that, fine. Just realise it's not necessarily the case.

-AC

That reminds me of when the two kids at Columbine shot everyone after listening to Eminem's music

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
That reminds me of when the two kids at Columbine shot everyone after listening to Eminem's music

I believe they blamed Marilyn Manson, not Eminem.

-AC

These people are just angry that they like shitty music, thus they kill people.

Very simple, that.

I've lived in Toronto for the past 12 years of my life, I walk home past 2 am all the time and feel perfectly safe. You have to realize that even with the increase in gun violence lately Toronto still has a fairly low crime rate in comparison to other cities it's size and population. There's sketchy areas sure, but those who live here know to avoid them. shrug

The article paints it as some sort of seedy area where you get shot hanging out on your front porch, completely opposite to the Toronto I know.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
So the ignorance you speak of is a conscious educated opinion.



You do realize this means you have to have invested some time into listening to various artists on a certain genre to have a "conscious educated opinion" right?

I think someone who does not listen to a certain genre of music regularly should not even comment on the validity of that genre since they do not identify with it at all, and call only make sweeping generalizations.

Need a few songs?

Alfheim, or whatever it is, you cannot surely think that this problem is exclusive to south London. Are you really that naive? Do you realise that Glasgow has a much higher murder rate than London? Yet I very very much doubt this is due to a gun toting black community, like you make s.London out to be. You need to accept that violence has always been and always will be, there will always be a scape goat and it will range from religion to music nowadays. Get a grip and blame something with a bit more validity.

Hip-Hop does promote gun crime but it's the person who commits the crime who is to blame, not the music. Another problem is that these so-called 'gangstas' are seen in music videos livin' it up with fast cars and hot women so some kid is going to think "If I get into gun crime, I could have all this". It happens very subtly and over a long time but it does have an effect. Nevertheless it's the individual's fault, not the music's.

Messed up here LOL. Didn't mean to pratice that

Originally posted by chithappens
http://www.bgsu.edu/studentlife/greeks/phi-gamma-delta/Brothers/Thug%20(3).JPG

Not them 2!!!!! HAHAHA

I don't disses rock or whatever you listens to, so don't diss Hip-Hop culture.

Dude, I'm hip hip. Actually, I'm willing to say without even speaking to you, I know more hip hop than you by far.

I'm being facetious about the pic. Check my previous posts.

Sigh sensitivity. Would seem like I was just being silly anyway...

I reffered to the starter of this thread

2guns Damn you and your lack of context.

This is where gun violence comes from in civilized folk.

As your name nearly says... Shit happens

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Alfheim, or whatever it is,

what the **** is that supposed to mean?

Originally posted by chillmeistergen

you cannot surely think that this problem is exclusive to south London. Are you really that naive? Do you realise that Glasgow has a much higher murder rate than London?

Er yeah Glasgow has the highest muder rate in Europe and is worse than New York.


Originally posted by chillmeistergen

Yet I very very much doubt this is due to a gun toting black community, like you make s.London out to be.


Ok listen carefully to me....I know from personal experience in South London guns are increasing among the black youth and also the figures say that as well.

That does not negate the fact that Glasgow has a highier muder rate. I dont live Glasgow I dont give a ****. Furthermore according to some articles I was reading on Toronto gun crime had a Jamaican connection. Hell dont argue with me read the paper and argue with them.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen

You need to accept that violence has always been and always will be, there will always be a scape goat and it will range from religion to music nowadays. Get a grip and blame something with a bit more validity.

I dont really know what to say to that statement really, now your just talking down to me.

Originally posted by silver_tears
I've lived in Toronto for the past 12 years of my life, I walk home past 2 am all the time and feel perfectly safe. You have to realize that even with the increase in gun violence lately Toronto still has a fairly low crime rate in comparison to other cities it's size and population. There's sketchy areas sure, but those who live here know to avoid them. shrug

The article paints it as some sort of seedy area where you get shot hanging out on your front porch, completely opposite to the Toronto I know.

Yeah I know gun crime is still low in Toronto.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Then they were never facts.


Actually I remember how this started we were talking about stats and figures. I said I wasnt concerned about figures and then you said that you cant ignore facts. Therefore implying that stats are facts.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Precisely. As far as you know. It's experience, and you lack this.



Well no ive been to to other scenes in london. Alternative scene has no violence at all. Oh yeah and you had better ask vintagesw77 about gun crime in Manchester he would say the samething as well.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Not the original stuff he did, the original stuff he did was garage. When he tried to make hip hop, obviously it sounded more like mainstream hip hop. Everything he's done has been one thing, though; Shit.

I heard two songs both of them sounded like rapping and he is classified as being Garage, the same with the So Solid Crew. I dont know about bizzles earlier stuff...yeah he is ****.



Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

I worded that a bit unclear, sorry. What I meant was that lyrics can't create an attitude. The attitude is already there, if it's mirrored in the music then it's nothing more than an excuse.



You were, which is why we're debating.



Yes, but you have to remember why it's a factor.


Ok lets put it this way what do you think would happen if all the gun toting rappers told people to be more positive to go to school and forget about the gun lifestyle? Do you think this would affcet the gun crime in the scene.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Read it again. There are cultures that are born of music and music genres that are born out of a culture.

For example, the straight edge lifestyle was created by Ian Mackaye of Minor Threat in the song Straight Edge. The song wasn't part of the culture in general, it created a culture because of it's ideas. People who didn't even like the song happened to agree with what it was about. Therefore, straight edge culture wasn't necessarily full of people who liked straight edge musicians/music.

In the case of garage, it's opposite. Out of a culture, people started making that kind of music, modern garage anyway. So it comes back to it being an attitude first.


I dunno man i cant be bothered with this point anymore.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Of course it can, but it is a choice. Nobody's fate is sealed by being raised in a bad way. That's precisely why the connotations are just that, because it all depends on the person's reaction. Negative lyrics get blamed for someone CHOOSING to interpret them literally or in a bad way. They shouldn't, the person should. Musicians are ultimately only responsible for themselves.



See my previous reply about that.



What do you mean? I never denied music was influential.


Well at any rate....

Ok lets put it this way what do you think would happen if all the gun toting rappers told people to be more positive to go to school and forget about the gun lifestyle? Do you think this would affcet the gun crime in the scene.



Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

I'm not saying that at all, I'm saying at 12 or older, maybe even younger, you have clear notions of what you should do and what you shouldn't do. Seeing as we're talking about gun crime, though, we must be talking early teens, in which case they DEFINITELY know that what they're doing isn't good, but they do it because they're bad kids.

-AC

You're underestimating peer pressure and envinromnet and over simplyfying things.