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Okay, I've been thinking this through and we all love/hate the compass. There's huge discrepancies when it comes to how it actually works and the nature of it. I think I've figured it out. IT'S NOT INTUITIVE!

This may be a little confusing, but stick with me here. I want to know if you guys think this makes sense.

First time with compass: Norrington pulls it off Jack, opens it, it points to Jack, Norrington notes it does not point north.

Explanation: It points to Jack because Norrington really, really wants to capture this bastard pirate that just rescued the girl he proposed to.


2nd significant time with the compass: Jack is in a storm using it to find the Pearl. Self explanatory.

3rd significant time: Jack opens it at the end, we do not get to see where it points, but he smiles. We'll come back to this one.

We don't see the compass again until DMC when it starts going haywire. Now, this is where it gets confusing. T&T said what you want most can definitely change. This is true. Otherwise the compass would stay pointing at one thing the whole time rather than going back and forth. But, let me use this example.

Say I really, really want some rum, and I'm pretty sure I forgot to get it out of my car. So what I want changes to going to the car, but I still want the rum. I open the compass. Now, will it point to the rum or the car? If I've convinced myself I know where the rum is, it should point to the car BUT it's still the rum I want most. Do you see? So if I convince myself I want the car because of the rum, the rum is still what I want, but I want to go to the car and go get it. If the rum was in the refrigerator the whole time, the compass wouldn't figure that out for me, so it's not a catch-all device.

Now we're going to use that logic for the next compass moments.

4th significant time with the compass: Jack explains how it works to Elizabeth. The previous times with it, it doesn't count because we know he's torn between two things. He needs the chest right now. He has to sell her this idea. For the moment, Jack has two trained puppies here, one to get him the key and one to get him the chest. I won't go into the sexual symbolism there, but he NEEDS Liz to believe this compass works. So she finally holds it and it points straight ahead of her. If it works like how I said it works, where it does not necessarily point to what you want most. Liz wants the chest, it points to the chest. Here it works just fine.

5th significant time with the compass: Liz uses it because Norrington has messed with her mind and it points to Jack. Okay. I'm a J/Eer, and if the compass is intuitive, it will point to Jack because Jack has the information/abilities necessary to find Will. But, the compass is not intuitive. It doesn't assume the rum is in your refrigerator. The rum is going to take you to your car where you think the rum is. So throw out the explanation that it points to Jack because he can help with Will. One of two things is going on here.
1. It is pointing to the chest and Jack is just in the way. It is Liz's own mind that draws the conclusion it points to him because she wants him.
2. It is pointing to Jack because Jack is a sexy pirate king and Liz is beginning to realize it.

You can draw your own conclusions there, but it can't be pointing to Jack for the purpose of saving Will. The chest is what will save Will. The other times after this point are fairly self-explanatory. It points to the chest the whole time, but that doesn't mean Jack and Elizabeth interpret it that way. Jack uses to debate whether or not to go back to the Pearl and it seems to work just fine there. Any thoughts, or have I confused everyone?

Originally posted by willofthewisp

2. It is pointing to Jack because Jack is a sexy pirate king and Liz is beginning to realize it.


Agree with you ^ And your theory does make sense when you get your head around it

Wow, that was great and my mind is swimming. But yeah, I agree.

i agree wholeheartedly!!!!

That must of had your brain squished by the time you had worked it all out lmao!!

I just hope you are right!!!!

I shall tell everyone my little story now...and its VERY close to the jack/liz/will triangle lmao!

I have been with my boyfriend for 2 and a half years.
We are happy together, and we both love eachother very much.
He's kind and he would never do anything wrong to me or treat me badly...

HOWEVER;
There is another guy at the moment (suspiciously a Jack character, i may add...tattoo's, funny swagger, has all the ladies around him and everything...lol) and although we have been friends for about 2 years...suddenly we're kind of seeing eachother in a different light.
The way he talks to me and such...I was actually meaning to ask him if he was as obsessed with Jack Sparrow as i am lmao!

I'm telling this story because at the moment i feel JUST LIKE Liz.
I havent kissed him or anything like that...im not about to cheat on somene because that's just not me...

But i know how it feels to love someone, and then lust after someone else...especially someone who actually looks like johnny depp (its true...and thats why it is killing me lmao!)

So if i were in Liz's position, i would know EXACTLY why the compass was pointing at Jack.
The first time it points there it has nothing to do with LOVE...but something about what he said to her ("Persuade me" had really gotten to her....

And then by the time we next see them together, shes talking about wanting to be married (or in the way we're supposed to read it, she really just wants some sex lol).

I found it really weird how MOST of the pearl scenes at one point were Jack/Liz.

There has got to be a purpose for it all.
Jack is not just leverage. lol

So you agree that it can point to something even if you really wanted something else all along?

Wow... Willo, I'm impressed!!! that's amazing!!! great detective work there.

T.Maria.... sorry you find yourself in that situation!!! hahaha. wow. i'm assuming your posts take on a whole new meaning when you actually find yourself in that situation.

I think we generally give the compass more weight than we should. It's a navigational tool, not a fortune teller. haha. It's going to point you to whatever you want most at that moment (and lets check out Maslow's hierarchy of needs to assure ourselves that that changes every 5 seconds), but i dont think that means there are any deep spiritual soul mate hints in that. haha.

here's a problem i have with the compass (one of many.) T and T said there is no transference aka its not intuitive. So let's say the compass is pointing at Jack--- which, as everyone assumes, is because Elizabeth wants him. But when we say that, we are essentially saying Elizabeth wants to sleep with him. right? but that, logically speaking, is transference. Either that, or its objectifying people in a really offensive way.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
So you agree that it can point to something even if you really wanted something else all along?

wow! wat a thought lol i think it might b true, i hav 2 think about this more............it points to somthing u want all along but then again it might just point to the thing u are thinking about while you are holding it (i hope you guys are getting what im saying lol)

so basically the compass might point to somthing ur thinking about while ur holding it but you still might be thinking about somthing else u might of always wanted.......(i think tht makes more sense )
or exactly the same as b4 lol

hope noone has mentioned this already hehe......

I have to disagree with this theory, just a little.


I don't think that if you convince yourself that the rum is in the car, that the compass will point at the car, unless you convince yourself that what you want most is the car.


Ted and Terry have stated that what you want is changeable, so the compass could swing in any number of directions. Such as, if at some point, Elizabeth had been wanting some shade, if she had pulled the compass out it might have shifted from the heart to where the shade is.


It doesn't matter WHY you want what you want. The compass doesn't tell you that. It simply points you in the direction of whatever is on your mind that you want the most at that particular moment.


So for Jack, the compass isn't working simply because he can't figure out what he wants more. He wants the chest, he longs for companionship, but he also longs to distance himself from that same companionship because he doesn't like being vulnerable.


So basically, if you want one or more things in equal terms, then the compass won't know where to point, especially if said things are in two different directions.


Maybe the compass pointed to Jack because Elizabeth wanted to know where Will was, and Jack had the answers. Maybe it pointed toward Jack because the Flying Dutchman was coming from that direction, and Jack happened to be in the way. It could be that it pointed to Jack because Elizabeth has raging hormones and she wants to have sex with him (although honestly...how could she pass up Scruffington? *sad sigh*). Maybe it pointed at Jack because she really secretly wants to kill him.


Or maybe it's a combination of all those reasons and even more than we can come up with.


Well, that's my theory, at least. That the compass just points to what you want most, but it doesn't really matter WHY you want it. You just want that particular thing in that particular moment.


Oh, and ya know...the compass pointed to Jack for Norrington because duh, Norrington wants to shag the sexy pirate. Sparrington forever!!! Or not.

To some extent I agree with you. But the compass is definitely not intuitive. Here's the gist of what I'm getting at. Let's go back to the rum in the car analogy. I can see your point, that it would just point to the car. That's what I'm saying all along. It's not intuitive enough to guess you want the car because you want the rum. Therefore, can you want something more than anything else and yet have the compass point to something different? Forget briefly the fact that what you want can change.

No. It points to what you want most. If it points to the car, it means you've decided you want the car more. I think the only way that would work is if you want more than one thing.


Is there a relevant example from the movie that we can dissect into little tiny pieces?

Originally posted by willofthewisp
So you agree that it can point to something even if you really wanted something else all along?

I agree 100%, Willo.

Being in this situation right now has actually made me think about POTC and sparrabeth and the whole compass thing.

Jack actually states that the compass points at the thing that you want most...
But he doesn't state HOW you should be feeling emotionally when you find where the compass is pointing...

So basically, liz could have completely dismissed the compass and thought;

"oh, what the hell...its just jack and yeah, hes hot! Ofcourse i want him!! But i would never act on the situation because its only some hidden lust that ive been keeping on a low profile..."

But instead, the way she has emotionally gone with it is something quite different.
She's gone down the path that MANY of us go down...the one that only gets you into more trouble because you're CURIOUS...
You WANT to know 'What if'.

But to be honest, i dont think she was emotionally prepared for the way she actually reacted to it.
To me, i think the compass COULD be seen as a turning point for Liz...its the time when she actually grew up and became more of a woman.

Just my two cents...(or pennies if your english lol)
Feel free to say im talking from my buttox cheeks

Okay, I'll tell you what inspired this idea. It's the whole thing about "Is it pointing to the chest or is it pointing to Jack?" I don't like J/Eshippers to use evidence that is no good because argumentative, yet brilliant people like you come along, Surreal, and give them the smackdown. So I'm dissecting the hell out of the scene where Norrington messes with her and she looks at the compass.

I don't know why it's still a matter of debate since T&T say it was pointing to the chest the whole time, but let's go for it anyway.

People want multiple things all the time. Honestly, the first time I heard Jack flat out say what the compass does, I thought he was pulling a fast one on her. I figured it did something along those lines, but my first thought was, "How can someone want just one thing?" So right at that moment, Liz wants to find Will. That's what she wants the most. She uses the compass and it points straight ahead of her...to the chest. This already proves the compass is not intuitive because she still wants Will. His safety is what matters most at this moment to her, but she wants the chest because it ensures Will's safety. So really, the compass is pointing to something different than what she really wants.

Later, Jack comes into play as far as Liz using the compass goes. She is as complex a character as he is, so I doubt the arrow stays on one thing every time she uses it. If it spins for Jack, it should spin for just about anyone on the same complexity as he is, and Liz and Will both do that. So she takes out the compass again and even though it's pointing at Jack, there is speculation as to why. There are three reasons usually given.
1. It's pointing to the chest and Jack is just in that line, but because Liz already wants him, she attributes it pointing to him to mean she wants him. (This makes the most sense to me) Self-fulfilling prophesy is at work here, not the compass.
2. It's pointing to Jack and not the chest because for this brief moment, Liz wants Jack the most.
3. It's pointing to Jack because Jack has all the information/abilities to save Will.

So let's do #3 first. The compass is not intuitive. It's not going to point to the rum in the fridge because you want the non-existing rum in the car. It's not going to point to Jack because Jack can lead her to Will or the chest. It might as well just point to Will if it was intuitive.

Now to #2. Now, it is true what you want can change and often does, but I have a few problems with this.
1. There's no reason to want him AT THIS MOMENT. (give her some time, wink wink)
2. If she wants him at this moment, she's not going to want to want him. She'll be in the same position Jack is where the compass will go haywire rather than definitely pointing at something. All J/Eers have to admit she feels some guilt about having feelings for Jack, so she doesn't want to want him.

So let's go to #1. Because the compass is not intuitive and because Liz has conflicting feelings, we have to conclude the compass is pointing to the chest. She's already convinced herself (well, Jack convinced her, but whatever) that she needs the chest for Will, so in a sense, the compass is pointing to something even though she wants something else more (Will to be safe).
So should she assume it's pointing to Jack? Well, it doesn't help that James Norrington caught her enjoying the fact Jack wants her, so the idea is already in her mind. I would say AT THIS MOMENT, her main concern is still Will. But she is attracted to Jack, has a friendship with him, and has just found out he's attracted to her. So she already wants him, not most, but wants him. And that's why she gets so upset, because she does not want to want Jack. It's not the compass. It's her own mind.

Thank you! I've been trying to say that for months, but never put it half as well.

I've always thought that it wasn't where the compass was pointing that was important, but rather, Elizabeth's interpretation of where it was pointing that held more significance.

Doesn't the compass point to your heart's true desire, or just what you want most? Or is it the same junk?

Have you notice that not even the writers can agree on how the compass works.

There are times that I don't agree with one of them. I love them alot and respect their work but I'm not a suck up. If I see something that won't fit then I have to go oppisite on what one of them say.

Chiki, you are far from a suckup!

Okay, in the commentary, both writers seem to agree very firmly about how the compass works. To quote them, "It doesn't point to your heart's desire. It points to what you want." A heart's desire is that deepest, most sincere desire for something/someone that if you have that, you'll feel complete. A want is just a want. Consider my rum in the car analogy. For a couple of minutes, that rum is what you want most in the whole world. Is your heart's desire rum? Nope. But you still really want some. Also, I think it would take a lot for a heart's desire to change. Wants come and go and are very subject to change.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Chiki, you are far from a suckup!

Okay, in the commentary, both writers seem to agree very firmly about how the compass works. To quote them, "It doesn't point to your heart's desire. It points to what you want." A heart's desire is that deepest, most sincere desire for something/someone that if you have that, you'll feel complete. A want is just a want. Consider my rum in the car analogy. For a couple of minutes, that rum is what you want most in the whole world. Is your heart's desire rum? Nope. But you still really want some. Also, I think it would take a lot for a heart's desire to change. Wants come and go and are very subject to change.

Is it bad? lol

On why the compass pointed to the chest for Lizzy is a little tricky. Was it because she was inspired by Jack's story on how the compass works?

Well, it may be part of it, but let's not forget that she loves Will. IMO, the compass pointed to the chest because she wanted Will safe. And to help Will, she knows that she needs to find the chest to rescue him. At that moment, the only thing that she wanted most was to have Will safe.

Exactly. Surreal will disagree with me because she and I have discussed this scene, but it's actually interesting how Johnny and Keira play it and the direction Gore gave them. She doesn't think it fits, and to a point she's right.
This isn't a romantic scene between them. He's SELLING an idea to her. He absolutely needs her to believe him so she'll use it and find the chest for him. So what does he do? He plays it up, uses some showmanship and it does in fact make her smile. He captures her interest, gets her to believe it, and lets her keep it, which really shows the trust he has in her.
But is he also flirting and is she also flirting?

Jack: It points to whatever you want most in this world.

Liz: Jack, are you telling the truth?

Her face here is a little strange. She's very intrigued by this, yet she interprets his line to mean he's implying he wants her more than anything in the world. (he does but not at this point, wink wink). So, are they flirting? How much does the nature of the compass play into this? I can see why he lets her keep it: three reasons.
1. It makes no sense to take it from her and keep giving it back to her.
2. He trusts her. She's going to give it back to him when she's done with it.
3. He doesn't want to use it with her there. He does not want a definite "yes, this is what I've been pointing at all along" from it.

So as I've asked/stated before, it can point to something other than what you want. And to be perfectly honest, obsessive, and a faithful J/Eer. I don't think they're intentionally flirting here. He's relying more on storytelling/showmanship-style seduction rather than physical seduction. I think this is just how they react to one another and that they can't help it.

Oh yeah, he's not lying to her. He's just dressing it up. It wouldn't do much good to be like, "oh yeah, and by the way, it points to what you want" and then toss it to her. No.

I'm not defending Jack, but Jack had to lie about him not being involved of Will being captured by the Flying Dutchman so that Liz would be his side at the moment. And use the opportunity in telling Liz about the compass, so the compass would for Liz for Jack to get the chest.

Yes. I mean he's not lying to her about the compass. The whole "Will's gone but it's not my fault" is of course a lie. I was just referring to the compass.

I get what your saying but in that scene when Jack gives here the compass he already has to change what she wanted the most(to save Will) into finding the chest of Davy Jones, in the commentary T&T kind of say that, and then in the scene where it points to Jack one of the writers say that it probably only pointed to him for a second which is true because it does go back to pointing the chest.

I think if Liz wanted Jack and to find the chest then the compass would have started spinning like it was when Jack held it

^^ I get what you're saying, murphy83.

In Isla del Cruces, The compass pointed at Jack at first, then when she dropped it on the ground, it pointed to the chest. It was still in Liz posession until another person picks it up and is now in control of the compass.

The compass finally pointed to the chest as in like maybe wanting to save Will and not to deal with wanting Jack. The compass was starting to get whaky like the way it was doing it to Jack.

Would you say it points to freedom even if a character has convinced him/herself they want something more? Also, they could view something as giving them freedom when in fact it might not.

But an intangible idea also brings up the same problems of does the compass point the way to get what you want, the means to get what you want or just a symbolic interpretation of what you want?

I've been reviewing the quotes from the writers about the compass. Ted flat out states that the compass only points to material objects. Which does and doesn't make sense in some respects. The compass was pointing at the chest the whole time, but the only thing that matters is where the owner of the compass thinks it's pointing.

On the other hand, if it only points at material objects, then how do you explain the way it wobbled back and forth for Jack in the beginning of the film. He wanted to find the chest, or at least some sort of solution to his problem, yes. But then, that discounts the theory entirely that it was pointing towards Elizabeth in Port Royale. Unless of course, Jack thinks of Elizabeth as a treasure. Not all treasure is silver and gold.

I don't like the compass

*pulls hair*

again, i have a headache and now after trying to read this thread now i have a migrane!

"On the other hand, if it only points at material objects, then how do you explain the way it wobbled back and forth for Jack in the beginning of the film. He wanted to find the chest, or at least some sort of solution to his problem, yes. But then, that discounts the theory entirely that it was pointing towards Elizabeth in Port Royale. Unless of course, Jack thinks of Elizabeth as a treasure. Not all treasure is silver and gold."-----savvysparrow

Only points to material things? That makes no sense at all. "It shows you what you want most in this world....but only if you can see it and touch it! So if you want world peace, forget about it!" Honestly, they should have extended the scene where Jack explains it just to make sure the audience got it. Only material things? The writers have blatantly stated in the commentary it wavers towards Elizabeth when Jack holds it, so that can't be true. People aren't material objects.

Another point, if it only pointed to material objects, why would Jack have to change what Elizabeth wants to make sure she wants the chest? If it can't point to Will anyway, it won't take much convincing to get it to point to the chest.

but if it point to will then jack would never get the chest so he had to convince liz to want the chest so they could go get it. jack used her to his advantage on that one

That's what I'm saying. If there was no way on earth it could point to people, he wouldn't have to convince her to have it point to the chest. Do you see? It wouldn't have taken as much convincing on his part because he had to convince her she wanted the chest and not Will. If he knew it couldn't point to Will anyway, there was no reason to change what she really wanted.

wait wait wait, i just got into this thread, now how are u figuring that the compass doesnt point to people?

oh i get it my bad willo!

Someone earlier said that the compass points only to material objects, which I have to disagree with. The writers make it perfectly obvious in the commentary that it can in fact point to people.

yea, i was going to say, nowhere does it say or prove that it only point to material objects only

Savvysparrow cites the writers saying that, but I don't think they're right in their own story.

That's why I always say I love 'em and respect 'em, but I'm not a suck up to 'em .

Only material things sounds silly to me. I didn't know Liz was a walking material.

lol^^

materials does sound a bit silly.

it is what you want most (noun), a person, place or thing.

Originally posted by willofthewisp


Only points to material things? That makes no sense at all. "It shows you what you want most in this world....but only if you can see it and touch it! So if you want world peace, forget about it!" Honestly, they should have extended the scene where Jack explains it just to make sure the audience got it. Only material things? The writers have blatantly stated in the commentary it wavers towards Elizabeth when Jack holds it, so that can't be true. People aren't material objects.

Another point, if it only pointed to material objects, why would Jack have to change what Elizabeth wants to make sure she wants the chest? If it can't point to Will anyway, it won't take much convincing to get it to point to the chest.


I swear I'm not making this up. It's one of the posts on word player. I have it saved somewhere. I'll try to dig it up. But I think it's a load of crock because how would they explain Jack's weeble wobbling compass? Other than it doesn't matter so much where the compass was pointing, but rather where Jack thought it pointed.

Whoops wrong url, here's the right one:

The compass points to material objects only.
http://www.wordplayer.com/forums/moviesarc07/index.cgi?read=85572

Then why is it wavering all throughout DMC? They even say in the commentary that it's pointing to Elizabeth. They don't specifically say why, but they say it does. It's definitely not pointing to her corset.

Well Elizabeth is a material girl in a material world

Maybe it has to do with the way that Jack viewed Elizabeth at first? As a material object. Some men view women as objects rather than as human beings. But in all likely hood, I think that's a far too psychological answer. In all likelihood, the writers are just toying with us.

so maybe it proves, that Jack wants just body...

Or maybe it just proves that it doesn't matter what the compass thinks. It only matters what the two people who held the compass thought.

Ok, excuse my frustration on this topic..

WHO CARES ABOUT THE COMPASS.

It would be nice to show a lesson in this movie that you don't need a bloody compass to know what you want most. You have your heart to guide to.

I personaly think the writers are toying with us. Writers have a way of manipulating words. They just want us to see our reaction and how we will solve it. It's a way of testing us.

Originally posted by Minie Mina

It would be nice to show a lesson in this movie that you don't need a bloody compass to know what you want most. You have your heart to guide to.



And then we can all hold hands, sing kumbaya and braid the tentacles of Davy Jones beard together?

Yes! Kumbaya all the way, baby!!

And we can pray for world peace!

I have to agree. The writers are messing with us there. Savvy, I believe you and I'm not saying you're messing with us, but I think what you found was either a slip-up (which is very forgivable considering the complexity of the world they created) or a "stop asking us questions" answer. It seems that if they were in a friendly mood, they would have explained it a little deeper instead of just saying "it points to material things."

Jack's thoughts on Liz if the compass only points to material things:

She did have a kickass hat....

Elizabeth: singing I'am in a material world and I'm a material girl!

Originally posted by willofthewisp


She did have a kickass hat....


HA! Ten points for you! That's awesome.



As far as the compass goes, it's a creation of both writers, so one of them believes that it only points to material objects, while the other has a very different interpretation. So it's probably a combination of things. But I think what they're essentially trying to say with their commentary on the compass is that it doesn't much matter where the compass was pointing when it comes to the interpretation of human emotion. The writers are very clear on the fact that they believe actions are much more important than words.


The compass was more than likely pointing at the chest the whole time for Elizabeth; possibly it was pointing to Port Royale and the chest the whole time for Jack. All that matters is where those two characters THOUGHT the compass was pointing and the actions subsequently because of their interpretation.

So in other words, the compass did the trick in tricking them to beleive that they want eachother.

I am taking a que from Willo on this compass puzzle and I offer the following rational. hehehe

I have run across a quote by Peyton Conway March. "There is wonderful mythical law of nature that the three things we crave most in life -- happiness, freedom, and peace of mind -- are always attained by giving them to someone else."

Mythical is an adjective derived from myth: Usually legendary narritive that presents part of the beliefs of a people or explains a practice or natural phenomenon. 2. An imaginary or unverifiable person or thing.
Mythology: a body of myths, especially those dealing with the gods or heros of a people.

The question was, did Jack return to the Pearl because the compass pointed to Lizzy, or the crew, or the Pearl.

Well, if we can believe Ted in his explaination that it points to material things then that would be the Pearl and by returning he in essence shows Lizzy he is a good man, but he also has decided to stay and go down with his "freedom". (He said this on the beach w/lizzy in COTBP)By doing this he knows he will bring peace of mind to the crew, Will and Lizzy, but most of all it will mean happiness for Will who will finally have Jack out of the way. So by his returning he is giving all of his happiness, freedom and peace of mind to others.

Also, the "mythical law"part goes with this Pirate trilogy in that TnT have said the Pirates are like Pirate Gods.

The way TnT twist words and slip in the subtle innuendos, and fact that the whole trilogy is based on freedom, happiness, and peace of mind, I tend to believe that this quote was their whole hypothesis for this trilogy, but after the Kraken attack and Jack tells Gibbs "It's only a ship mate" and looks around, he did not have Lizzy in his sights, it was all for the Pearl.

Or maybe not. hehehe

Originally posted by Minie Mina
So in other words, the compass did the trick in tricking them to beleive that they want eachother.


Well, not exactly. I'm saying that the emotions and desires were probably already there to begin with. All the compass did was allow them an excuse to give into the curiousity that was essentially already in place.

I think I'm not making sense. I'm trying though....

Keep going Savvy you are doing OK.

BTW when Norrington first opened the compass, it pointed at that little island that Johnny wanted to buy after COTBP was through filming. hehehe

No, no. I'm not making any sense. I really hate the compass.

You're explaining it better than me, savvy.

Actually, last time I paused on the scene in CotBP, I couldn't find the red arrow that points at what you most want.

1. There is no triangle, unless you are referring to the thing Elizabeth wanted most at one point being the chest, and at another point being Jack.

2. At no time did Jack was wibbling about Elizabeth, or vice-versa.

3. If you think Jack using Will as leverage to serve his own interests, or Will taking action against Jack to save a loved one, is a perversion of their relationship in the first movie, then that's what you think.

4. Jack was never enamored of his ship; he was and is enamored of what his ship represents: freedom. And, of course, as it turned out the very thing he wanted so much he was willing to make a deal with the devil to get, has come to represent either a hundred years of servitude (and eventual loss of identity) or death.


http://www.wordplayer.com/forums/moviesarc07/index.cgi?read=85939




OK, I'm going to use this quote from Ted to further my interpretation that it in no way matters WHAT-SO-EVER where the compass was pointing.

Back to the idea that the compass "tricks" you. No, what she's saying is that the power of suggestion/self-fulfilling prophesy is more at work. The best example of this is when Liz whips out the compass on the Pearl and closes it quickly because she thinks it's pointing to Jack.

We know from the commentary the compass is pointing to the chest the whole time it's in Elizabeth's possession. However, that's not what she interprets. She already wants Jack. Therefore when she sees the compass point to him, she concludes it's pointing to him because she wants him, not because he just may be in the way of what the compass is really pointing at.

She already knows where the chest is and they are on the way to Isla del Cruces. So that has been discarded at that moment because she wanted Will safe. But now, she wanted Jack.

I'm not good at this.

ok i dont know if u have already talked about this but wen they are on the island, how is it that jack can get the compass to work but he couldnt before

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Back to the idea that the compass "tricks" you. No, what she's saying is that the power of suggestion/self-fulfilling prophesy is more at work. The best example of this is when Liz whips out the compass on the Pearl and closes it quickly because she thinks it's pointing to Jack.

We know from the commentary the compass is pointing to the chest the whole time it's in Elizabeth's possession. However, that's not what she interprets. She already wants Jack. Therefore when she sees the compass point to him, she concludes it's pointing to him because she wants him, not because he just may be in the way of what the compass is really pointing at.


YES! That's exactly what I'm saying willo! Only you said it ten times more eloquently than I ever could. Self-fullfilling prophecy! So, essentially what Ted is saying in the quote I mentioned was that Jack and Elizabeth's feelings have never waivered from each other. If the compass pointed at the chest the whole time, which is a material object, then it never pointed to Will. There was never a triangle.

I'm really stupid at this.

The compass was pointing to the chest the whole time because she only wanted Will saved.

So in the island scene The compass was pointing to the chest, but she thought it was to Jack. When she sat down and put aside the compass, it pointed to the chest.

so lizzie was still in control of the compass not jack?

Originally posted by lady_captinjack
ok i dont know if u have already talked about this but wen they are on the island, how is it that jack can get the compass to work but he couldnt before


Because Jack knows how the compass really works in that he knows that it can only point to material objects. Hence, the way he changes Elizabeth's thinking when he first introduces the compass to her.

He changes Elizabeth's thinking from: finding the chest to save Will to
saving Will by finding the Chest of Davy Jones. Notice that he's altered her thinking from something that is a non-material object: saving Will, to finding a material object: The chest of Davy Jones.


Remember the writers have also said that "what you want most" can change from moment to moment", which also implies material objects versus something intangiable, like saving Will for instance.

So on the island, the only material object that is present that they all desire is the chest of Davy Jones, which means that the compass will point only to that object if that is the only material object present. Hence, why it worked for Jack on the island. Also, it may not have been working, but he can infer that if the compass isn't spinning and pointing in a solid direction that Elizabeth is sitting on the material object chest because he knows how the compass really works.

Also, the whole thing about Jack's compass at the beginning of the film. Remember the writers have said that it was torn between two things, Port Royale, and finding the chest of Davy Jones. Land can become a material object. It doesn't matter so much what he wants as WHY he wants it, savvy?

So all that matters again, is not where the compass is pointing, but where the people who own the compass think it's pointing.

oooo

ok, boo I am confused.

Pointing to Port Royal, a material object where Liz lives. It's official, I lost it lol .

Ha, bottom line, the compass doesn't matter. All that matters is interpretation of said compass.

With the whole Port Royale thing. Land is a material object, people desire to acquire as much as it as they can because land is the equivalent of power at the time. So, since Jack knows that his compass only points to material objects, it was pointing toward Port Royale. But, like I said, it's not the what the compass was pointing to, so much as WHY it was pointing there.

"Why is the rum always gone?"

Exactly!

I couldn't have said it any better. Hehehe, I think this is a good sign.

So there never was a love triangle.

Nope. Also, this is the last part of the quote that I found most interesting because it applies to other costume spoilers on other threads.

From Ted:


"Why, it's almost as if Jack claimed the thing he wanted most in the world at the eventual cost of his own freedom. Hm ... I wonder if that idea might be relevant to some other part of the movie? Reflected, refracted and explored throughout the movie, even? Demonstrated in action and dialogue, or even overtly referenced at points?"

If he's already willing to limit his freedom in one way, what's to prevent him from limiting his freedom in others, say a marr--i-age. It's just a hunch, but in the interpretation of the compass, I don't think we're wrong.

That is very interesting. Now I'm starting to understand how the compass works.

How will it work in AWE?

ok first the dam compass points to the thing u want most.

then it points to ur deepest desires.

then it points to Material Objects only.

and now its forget where the compass is pointing, it doesnt even matter, what matters is why?

which brings us back into a circle and starts us at....it points to what u want most and etc....

how long must we go on about this dreaded compass. I mean didnt Jack explain it himself in DMC...IT POINTS TO THING U WANT MOST!!! it's not left open for interpretation...cause when Liz opens the compass and it points to Jack it's suppose to let us know that she has feelings for him....they are pretty much telling us what to think! Jack said it's what u want most...thats is what they want us to think!! That she wants him most!

Jack said that to trick Elizabeth into finding the chest. I understand now. It does only point to material things. Jack's compass was wanting to go to Port Royal and not wanting in wanting to go there. It was between pointing Port Royal or the chest.

Originally posted by Minie Mina
That is very interesting. Now I'm starting to understand how the compass works.

How will it work in AWE?

Does it matter? All that matters at this point is what the two of them were thinking.

That's what I think. It blatantly says in the commentary that the whole purpose of the "why is the rum always gone" line is to call the audience back to COTBP to inform them that and I quote, "Elizabeth is playing into Jack's thoughts" for some reason. If it points to material things because that's the best it can do, then it may be pointing to Port Royal. Keep in mind it's probably not the closest land mass to where Jack is since their first stop is the Pelegostos (sp?) Island and then they stop at Tortuga. Also keep in mind it's dangerous for Jack to go back to Port Royal because he'll be hanged once he goes back, so why would he want to go there of all places? I can think of only one explanation: a non-material "object" is there that he wants and the land mass said "object" is on is the best the compass can do to pointing at it, so to sum it up, the compass can in theory point to non-material things if you know what it is you want.

Giggle...you're right, savvy.

This is funny, Elizabeth thinking all this time it was pointing to Jack. If she knew about the only pointed to material things, the curiosity scene never would have happened. Because she wanted to see on why the compass was not working for Jack and wanted to test if it was pointing to her.

And look where it got them.

Exactly where they wanted to be.

No, I mean look where it got them like they almost kissed. They both wanted each other without the compass. Like T&T say, it became more than they could handle. That's why this compass thing doesn't shake me too much.

And why I'm saying that it doesn't matter where the compass was pointing the entire time. We're saying the same thing, I think.

lol, I think we are too.

Again, no love triangle. HAHA! This is hillarious. All this time thinking the compass was to Jack because she wanted him. When in reality it was pointing to the chest NOT WILL. She thought it was pointing to him because on how Jack manipulated his words into making her believe it points to what you want most. Not on how it really works in only pointing to material objects.

Confusing, but in a way makes sense, especially if you take the compass out of the picture.

lol...for once im in this thread with no headache....lol

now everything is making sense!

Ha! My Sparrabeth side is taking over now.

Anyways!

The characters weren't the only one being fooled by the compass, but the audience also

But we kick ass.

Now, to be fair: it could easily go the way of Willabeth if one wished to interpret it in that way. To spare everyone, including myself a headache, I'll refrain. To be honest, I think we have the correct interpretation, and I think it does serve the ball into the sparrabeth side of the court.

I'm not 100% certain, because after all Wil and Elizabeth do share a rather passionate kiss in the AWE trailer. My bias could be leading me down an erronious path. But me thinks it's unlikely. Call it a hunch.


Nice work ladies!

Well, to be honest, there was never a love triangle like the writers were indicating. Therefore it has been resolved .

Well, there was sort of a triangle, but it was very much resolved by the end of DMC. But if you look at the overrall scope of the story, remembering that each movie is a chapter in an overall larger story, you'll see that there was more than likely never a triangle.

Aye, triangle was solved by the end of DMC. I think that people made the image of the love triangle.

okay i was reading and i am still confused, sorry today is monday i am a little slow and need waking up.

So the compass points to material objects? correct?

okay no love traingle right? The ending of DMC was sparrabeth, so that who liz chooses is more on sparrabeth the willabeth right?

Am I stupid? Am I the only one who doesn't think the triangle is resolved at all? I feel no closure whatsoever at the end of DMC. If the writers are saying DMC resolved the triangle when in my opinion the triangle was just beginning, I have to say I'm confused.

1. Willabeth: Well, if the triangle is resolved, this is easy to interpret. Jack's dead and Liz "slaked her lust." She had to get it out of her system and it's over.

2. Sparrabeth: How in the world is this resolved?

The writers said somewhere that they wanted DMC to be shot in this fashion. One scene raises a question, the next scene is the answer to this question.

So, in my opinion, yes the Kiss raises a question. She slakes her lust, drowns her guilt and sends Jack to his death. But, then, where is the answer? Why, it's in the next scene in Tia's cabin, in which Elizabeth agrees to go to the ends of the earth to bring Jack back.

In my opinion, that is where the triangle is officially resolved.

Ah. That makes sense, but I still don't FEEL it's resolved. I guess that means I'm just stoked for AWE. I felt like it could go either way, honestly.

Well, it's not entirely resolved. While the kiss resolved a lot of tension between the two characters, it essentially sent a message to Jack that she has chosen Will. So now they're at two different places. He's in love with her, but thinks she's in love with Will. She's in love with him, but due to his actions of AWE, thinks that he's not the man she cares for.

So yeah, it's not entirely resolved. But her choice was made, if that makes sense.

It does. Do you really think she loves him at this point? I never really know what to make out of her. I agree 100% about Jack, but not her. I think she will, but not yet, if that makes sense.

You're right Willo, let me correct myself. In the long run, I believe Jack was always her intended choice, but she has to get there first. She's confused, because she's sent a man to death that she "may in fact love" (quote from Terry).

There are going to be bumps in the road. Jack's behavior after he returns from purgatory is going to be a huge road block. Her alligance to Will is another. They won't resolve the tension until the end of the story.

Elizabeth has feelings for him, that could turn into love. I think that makes sense. She has the potential to love him.

There are sooooo many little things that I think are really important to keep in mind. That their story begins from the first frame of COTBP and ends with the last in AWE. So the little moments between them in COTBP play a huge signifcance in the events of DMC and AWE.

I have some other theories that I'll put up for discussion later, but I want to finish watching COTBP right now.

Giggle...ok, savvy .

I'm anxiously awaiting your return, savvy!

*pokes willo*

poking?

I'm not poking...

*pokes willo*

I'm just bored. 37 minutes until the AWE web will be updated. And savvy is gone

35 minutes!

im bored too. wasting time watching videos on youtube

We should have poking wars.

*pokes Pocky* lol

Unless I get Jack to pop out of a cake if I win, I'm just going on to bed. Night!

*pokes mina*

I have a feeling i've missed a lot on this thread....

*pokes mina and savvychick*

mwhahahahaha

we have...

12 minutes!

Wow...this thread is amazing. I have never read it until tonight. So let me get this straight. Ya'll have figured out that the compass only points to material objects, through Ted's post on wordplayer. The thing that is important is what the holder of the compass believes it to be pointing at. So the compass was pointing to the chest, not Will. There is no love triangle. There is no love triangle. What does that mean? The triangle is resolved at the end of DMC...why? Because Jack comes back to the Pearl, and everything that they discussed is the curiosity scene comes to fruition in this scene. Jack has proved he is a good man and Liz proves that she is willing to act on selfish impulse. They kiss. She leaves Jack there to die.

Mina...I LOVE your new siggy. It is hysterical. The look on Will's face is priceless. All of their expressions are wonderful.

So, Jack is in love with Liz, but he thinks Liz chose Will.
Liz, may in fact be falling in love with Jack, but doesn't like what's become of him after she sends him to his death. Go figure.
But in the end they come together.

I'm glad you girls are so optimistic. I'm utterly confused. Well, there is no doubt that that one silly little ole compass has our heads spinning.

So when Jack is looking at the compass in his cabin and it points to Port Royal....there can only be one reason for that. Why on earth would Jack want to return to Port Royal. To be hanged? Doubt that. To visit Will, highly unlikley. To see Governor Swann, notta. To exchange small talk with Norrington, extremely unlikely. So that only leaves one other person...Elizabeth. Ah, and so it gets interesting. Why is the rum always gone?

That sneaky, sexy Jack...I love how he can manipulate Elizabeth into thinking she wants the chest most in this world. I don't care what Surreal thinks. I think the scene when Jack gives Lizzie the compass is very sexually charged. I love it. He even licks his mouth real quick with that lucious tongue of his.

Sorry ladies! I had to finish watching the movie and dancing with the stars is on. I promise to return very soon!

we have to wait AGAIN? wow.. 51 days.. thats when the movie comes out isnt it??

guys...

any summary on your findings? i read the first post, but seeing everyone had their own opinions i didn't have time to read them all so...

any summary?

Thanks, lovethemtigers lol for the siggy compliment lool.

We have to wait..again?

Ok, I'm back and ready to analyze!

Okay, summarize for me, if you will, What has been concluded about the compass and the love triangle...What exactly are you saying when you guys say and T and T say that there is, was and never has been/will be a love triangle?

i think that's kinda what i asked earlier... Okay.. so summarize... can you please do that guys?

savvy would probably analyze it better than me.

Well, for starters, the compass does only point to material things. The compass was never pointing to Liz, it was pointing between Port Royal and the chest. With Port Royal, he doesn't "want to want it." He is in between in wanting to go to Port Royal (material) and wanting to get the chest (material).

Jack: Why is the rum always gone?!

One of the writers insists that there was never a love triangle. The other insists that there was a triangle, but that it was resolved by the end of DMC.

I can see the argument of both sides. Let's start with the first one, that there was never a love triangle.

I believe that when the writers set out to write DMC and AWE, that they never intended for there to be a love triangle. My belief is that given Elizabeth's extreme interest in pirates from early childhood, and that one of the writers have said that the most romantic scene in all of COTBP is the scene on the island, that with the series as a whole, Elizabeth has secretly been attracted to and will probably end up in love with Jack.

If you watch COTBP closely, you can see how they could feasibly set up their claim that there is no love triangle. Yes, there is an interest on Elizabeth's part in Will because she believes him to be a pirate. She recognizes that he will one day be a pirate before any of the other characters do, including Will.

If you look at the way that Jack and Elizabeth meet, you can sort of see what the writers are setting up. For starters, Jack uses Elizabeth to escape in COTBP in the same sort of way that Elizabeth uses Jack to escape in DMC. They use chains for starters (the writers have said that Elizabeth chaining Jack to the Pearl was a deliberate call back to their meeting COTBP).

Also, we see in their first meeting even where and why the attraction started. My hypothesis is that the pirate medallion is symbolic because it reveals Elizabeth's true nature from the start to Jack. He recognizes her pirate nature. In the same vein, we also see why he admires her from the start. She knows he's a pirate, but she's still willing to commend him for being a good man. She sticks up for him against her father's and society's wishes because "one good deed CAN redeem a man of a life time of wickedness."


With me so far? I don't want to write too much. Again, this is the topic of why one writer insists their is no triangle.

so what do you guys make out of it when the compass needle pointed to jack when liz was holding it?

That it was pointing to the chest the entire time, but that it doesn't matter where it was pointing. All that matters is how the people who were holding the compass interpreted where it was pointing. So, even though the compass was pointing at the chest the whole time, Elizabeth automatically assumed that it was pointing at Jack. Why is that, I wonder?

So, in other words...there is no love triangle according to one of the writers, because Liz has always been and always will be attracted to Jack and is in fact, in love with him...but doesn't realize her true feelings? will, whom she thought was a pirate, was a romantic notion for her until she met the real thing, Jack Sparrow. The island is a very romantic scene. Will and Liz never even come close to having any scenes like The Rescue scene, Rum Runners Island, Peas in a Pod, Hide the Rum, Persuade Me, Curiosity and the Kiss of Death....very intense scenes where Jack and Liz are in each other's faces in all of these scenes....

They meet, in POTC...known as "the Rescue"....Jack rescues Elizabeth from her watery grave, she insists that they not kill her rescuer, but Norrington seems intent to send Jack to the gallows, so Jack uses Elizabeth as his "leverage" to escape...

http://i13.tinypic.com/4i4ld1j.jpg

Face to Face....

http://i7.tinypic.com/4gfj6ns.jpg

http://i3.tinypic.com/2wej2w7.jpg

http://i14.tinypic.com/35chehf.jpg

maybe she did want Jack, but refused to admit it to herself because she is engaged...

the next time they see each other....on the Interceptor, Jack rescues Elizabeth from being slaughtered by a nasty Pirate and she calls him "wretch" when asks where the medallion is.....

http://i7.tinypic.com/2akbjti.jpg

if you look at 3rd picture, she smiles a bit

the island....if you watch the island scene...they are right up in each other's face, and there really is no reason for it, they are just simply drawn to each other even when fighting...

http://i12.tinypic.com/403eolj.jpg

this is "why is the rum gone?"

Ok, good. I'll go on with the same subject. So, really what COTBP does is two things with the there is no triangle perspective. One, it sets up the theme of choices and the consequences of those choices. Two, it sets up Jack and Elizabeth as opposing but attracted forces. The catalyst of their attraction is the island scene, where you again you see a little of Jack's honest side; he admits to her that his legend is not so real. (You spent three days on a beach drinking rum). And, in turn, this is the first point where we see what an incredible pirate Elizabeth could make. She burns his rum, and while he hates her for it, he also admires her for it.

If they were mildly interested in one another before, this cements the attraction. Also, note Elizabeth's choice of words when she talks about why she burnt the rum. 1) Because it is a vile drink that turns even the most RESPECTABLE men into complete scoundrels.

The man she is referring to is Jack. She respects and admires him, probably all the more now that she knows that the legend is also just a man.

I'm leaving the deleted scenes out because they're not in the final cut. Even though the writers do insist they were cut for time, they can't specifically be considered cannon.

More over, when Elizabeth gives into her pirate side, we see what more she is capable of. She's capable of bartering herself to Norrington to get him to turn around and save Will, a VERY pirate like act, since it destroyed Norrington, and essentially killed many men in the struggle. It was also, a peaceful way to comandeer a ship without firing a shot...sounding familiar?

yes, Savvy...sounds very familiar....

you know I thought about that line last night when I watched POTC "it turns even the most respectable men into complete scoundrels"...she has to be refering to Jack, cuz who else has she witnessed drinking rum...hum, and what did she mean, did Jack, in fact, take advantage of her? Just kidding...since t and t say that in the final scene when Jack says "it could never have worked between us, darling, I'm sorry"..she has this look on her face "hush up, Jack"..they even comment "just how far did she go with Jack on that island"...just food for thought!

you know this reminds me of why I compare Jack and Elizabeth to all the great historical romance novels I read. They always butt heads, they fight each other, they challenge each other, they play games with each other, they flirt with each other, they despise each other, yet admire each other, and boiling just under the surface is a passion just waiting to boil over and explode and ignite into a passionate love....

and the terms she uses on Jack are atypical of heroines in historical romance before admiting that she loves the hero..."scoundrel" "diispicable" "wretch"

other words commonly used "cad" "cur" "rat" "pig"

Also, I've mentioned before that the Jack and Elizabeth relationship is set up like a chess game in that they're constantly trying to out wit each other. Jack starts the game by taking her hostage and using her as leeverage. Elizabeth retaliates by burning his rum. Jack retalitates in turn by having her locked up on the Dauntless.

The same sort of pattern is established in the verbal banter and behavior in DMC. Jack wins the game between them in the Persuade me scene, Elizabeth wins the upper hand in the Curiousity scene and the kiss of death scene I would judge to be a draw. They both gained something and lost at the same time.

yep....savvy...explain that to me. I've always felt stupid cuz I can't quite grasp all the things that went on in POTC, I guess cuz I've never analyzed as much as we have DMC. So, that's how she gets locked in that room, Jack does it. Explain to me how that happens. I always wondered about her line "that was Jack Sparrow's doing!"...and also, what was Jack's plan that he suggested to Norrington, when Mulroy tells Murtogg "why don't we do what that Jack Sparrow suggested we do."...and then Norrie says something like "because it was Sparrow that suggested it."...and then when Barbossa says "gents, take a walk"...Jack seems surprised by that...I am so confused on all of this...can you help?

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
yep....savvy...explain that to me. I've always felt stupid cuz I can't quite grasp all the things that went on in POTC, I guess cuz I've never analyzed as much as we have DMC. So, that's how she gets locked in that room, Jack does it. Explain to me how that happens. I always wondered about her line "that was Jack Sparrow's doing!"...and also, what was Jack's plan that he suggested to Norrington, when Mulroy tells Murtogg "why don't we do what that Jack Sparrow suggested we do."...and then Norrie says something like "because it was Sparrow that suggested it."...and then when Barbossa says "gents, take a walk"...Jack seems surprised by that...I am so confused on all of this...can you help?



Ha, I can try. From the way I understand it, as punishment for burning his rum, Jack encourages Norrington to try to protect Elizabeth by locking her in the room. He knows this will irritate her because she's Elizabeth and she's no shrinking violet. She wants to be in the thick of it, hence his smug smile when he's rowing out to meet Barbossa. He knows that he's won. Consequently, Elizabeth also knows that it's Jack's hand in it because she understands how his mind works.

I can't exactly recall all of the details of Jack's plan that he suggests to Norrington, and the plan that he suggests to Barbossa. I think the gist of it is, that he wants to get the pirates to lift the curse so that when they row back to the ships to try to take over them, Norrington and his men will "blast the bejezzes out of them" and essentially take them out in one foul swoop.
This is one of the instances when Jack is actually telling Norrington the truth, and the plan is a good one. Norrington doesn't trust Jack, and decides to stay in the boats, rather than returning to his ship.
Meanwhile, Jack attempts to convince Barbossa to follow through with his plan, but Barbossa isn't stupid. He must have suspected something was up, so he told his pirates to "take a walk" affectively sabotaging both Jack and Norrington's plans in one foul swoop.

That's the best I can do in terms of explanation. I'm not entirely sure I understand the whole of those scenes myself.

Originally posted by savvysparrow
Ha, I can try. From the way I understand it, as punishment for burning his rum, Jack encourages Norrington to try to protect Elizabeth by locking her in the room. He knows this will irritate her because she's Elizabeth and she's no shrinking violet. She wants to be in the thick of it, hence his smug smile when he's rowing out to meet Barbossa. He knows that he's won. Consequently, Elizabeth also knows that it's Jack's hand in it because she understands how his mind works.

I can't exactly recall all of the details of Jack's plan that he suggests to Norrington, and the plan that he suggests to Barbossa. I think the gist of it is, that he wants to get the pirates to lift the curse so that when they row back to the ships to try to take over them, Norrington and his men will "blast the bejezzes out of them" and essentially take them out in one foul swoop.
This is one of the instances when Jack is actually telling Norrington the truth, and the plan is a good one. Norrington doesn't trust Jack, and decides to stay in the boats, rather than returning to his ship.
Meanwhile, Jack attempts to convince Barbossa to follow through with his plan, but Barbossa isn't stupid. He must have suspected something was up, so he told his pirates to "take a walk" affectively sabotaging both Jack and Norrington's plans in one foul swoop.

That's the best I can do in terms of explanation. I'm not entirely sure I understand the whole of those scenes myself.


Oh I love it...so that's why Jack has that little smug smile on his lips, he knows she will be totally frustrated locked up in that cabin...he knows she's a lady of action. I don't think Will has learned that yet, but he does in DMC when he sees her dress on the English Ship.

So this kind of foreshadow's Jack's line on the island with the chest when Norrie says "You actually were telling the truth." and Jack responds "I do that quite alot, and yet people are always surprised" - so he was telling Norrie the truth about the plan, but Norrie didn't believe/trust Jack.

I believe that Will's actions of saving Jack at the end of COTBP have unforeseen consequences for him. But I'll get to that later. I want to touch on a few more things before we look at Will from this perspective.

There are some hugely important quotes at the end of COTBP that set up the course of the next films for most of the characters.

One: Sometimes to do the right thing, demands an act of piracy, if piracy itself can be the right thing.

Two: "Sometimes a good decision, if made for the wrong decisions, can be a wrong decision."

Ok, the first quote essentially applies to our three main characters who become pirates because they do the right thing. Jack becomes a pirate because he did the right thing in releasing the slaves he was carrying as cargo. Subsequently he was branded a pirate. Elizabeth becomes a pirate because 1) it was the right thing for her to convince Norrington to turn around and save Will 2) She sorta did the right thing in sacrificing Jack to the Kracken to save the lives of the crew.
Will became a pirate because he did the right thing in saving the life of a man who deserved to be saved. Good, we have an accord about why it is they are pirates.

Governor Swann has a GEM of a quote towards the end of COTBP that really underlines her struggle at the end of DMC, and I think for much of AWE.

"Sometimes a good decision, if made for the wrong reasons, can be a wrong decision."

Do you see why this specifically applies to her choice of killing Jack at the end of DMC? She made a good decision in sacrificing Jack. I believe that at heart, she had the good of the crew in mind when she made that decision. But, the decision was tainted because the kiss was to "drown her guilt and simultaneously slake her lust". So, it was a good decision, but made for the wrong reasons, and subsequently is a WRONG decision.

Savvy, I wish to participate on your analyses but I'm not feeling well.

Good night everyone.

Keep the faith.

i will! bye chikikins!

Last scene..
just watched this..and I don't see where Gov. Swann says that line about the wrong decision.....


Norrington: So, this is where your heart truly lies then.

(Elizabeth just shakes her head yes): It is.

Jack: Well, I'm actually feeling really good about all this. I think we've all arrived at a very special place, eh? Spiritually, economically, gramatically..(something like that) (to Gov. Swann)

Jack: (to Norrie) I want you to know, that I was rooting for you, mate.

Jack: Elizabeth, it would never have worked between us, darling. I'm sorry

Jack: Will, nice hat

Jack: This is the day that you will always remember as the day that you ..(jack falls over wall)


Britishman: Idiot, he has nowhere to go but back to the noose.

what's your course of action,
sir?

Gov. Swann: Perhaps on the rare occasion, persuing the right course demands an act of piracy. Piracy itself can be the right course.


Norrington: Mr. Turner. This is a beautiful sword. I would expect the man who made it to show the same amount of care and devotion in every aspect of his life"

Britishman: Commodore what about sparrow.

Norrington: Oh I think we can afford to give him one day's head start.

Gov. Swann: So, this is the path you've chosen. After all, he is a blacksmith

Elizabeth: No, he's a pirate.

is that quote from the script and didn't make the final cut? Perhaps?

No, it's from the scene where Elizabeth is trapped in the cabin. He's talking about her decision to marry Norrington. But it's still important because the writers drew from COTBP to write the rest of the films.

Originally posted by Minie Mina
Savvy, I wish to participate on your analyses but I'm not feeling well.

Good night everyone.

Keep the faith.

Sad Mina! Feel better soon!!


Ok, now let's talk about Will for two seconds. As much as most Sparrabethers wish he'd fall of the edge of the planet, we can't ignore that he's part of the story too.

Remember that I'm looking at the whole of the story from the perspective of there was never a triangle.

It's my belief from the there-was-never-a-triangle-perspective that COTBP serves as an introduction to the characters and to the themes of the pirates series. It's also my belief that Will's fate and perhaps the ending of AWE are foreshadowed from the opening of COTBP.

Elizabeth tells Will that she is watching over him the day that they met. And that is what they do for each other and my suspicion is what they'll continue to do for each other in the final frames of AWE. (Think that the Captain of the Dutchman has to have a living heart, and he'll probably have to bury it somewhere safe. Who better to watch over it than the girl who has always looked after you?) It's a theory.

COTBP essentially sets up this meeting and potential attraction between Jack and Elizabeth I'm not going to get into the struggle of romantic versus real love, etc etc, because that is where most of the arguments fall flat. All it does is leave open this possibility. They're attracted to each other, but Jack steps aside because it seems from every angle that Elizabeth only has eyes for Will. But does she? If you look at COTBP from the there is no triangle perspective, Elizabeth's action at the end of the film are as much for BOTH men as they are solely for Will. The only way that she can save Jack's life is if she protects Will's. So, she pretends to faint, and she steps to Will's side when they are surrounded by guards to save them both. So, whoever said that her interest in Jack in DMC comes out of nowhere isn't doing their homework.


Then, interestingly enough, Jack uses Elizabeth's distraction again to make his escape. He also tells her "Elizabeth, it would have never have worked between us darling, I'm sorry." Which, is the infamous line repeated by Elizabeth to Jack in AWE. (If you think of Elizabeth's repeating that line as a part of the same chess game sequence between them, it makes a whole lot more sense. Clearly, she's never forgotten their first parting.)


It is Will's actions, and the consequences of his actions at the end of COTBP that define his fate and essentially divide him from any happiness with Elizabeth.
Bootstrap Bill has an amazing line at the beginning of DMC that I think defines Will's actions at the end of COTBP and his fate.
Bootstrap says: "I'm sorry for my part in the mutiny against you. I stood up for you, everything went wrong after that."

Where does that sound familiar? That's right, Will's actions in COTBP. He stands up for Jack, calling him a good man and calling out his fate: he says something like, if all my actions have done is earn another pair of boots on the gallows, then so be it. At least my conscience will be clear.

See how father and son's fate mirror each other? Even down to the boots. Bootstrap stood up for Jack and was sent to the depths, Will stood up for Jack and will eventually and regrettably be sent to his doom.