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Instead of spreading it across all vs boards, lets keep it in one place, here.

I am going by the fact that they were stated to be supreme, the two staffs fighting about which were the best.
Thats why the nominated heroes (the brothers choosed a couple of heroes to fight for all reality) and let them fight.
In the end they agreed to be equal "You have done well"

And also going by the fact that they were supreme.

So it's either:

Blue Brother > Presence
Red Brother > The-One-Above-All

or

Blue Brother = Presence
Red Brtoher = The-One-Abve-All

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Instead of spreading it across all vs boards, lets keep it in one place, here.

I am going by the fact that they were stated to be supreme, the two staffs fighting about which were the best.
Thats why the nominated heroes (the brothers choosed a couple of heroes to fight for all reality) and let them fight.
In the end they agreed to be equal "You have done well"

And also going by the fact that they were supreme.

So it's either:

Blue Brother > Presence
Red Brother > The-One-Above-All

or

Blue Brother = Presence
Red Brtoher = The-One-Abve-All

Interesting

I think that idea stunk, personally.

The Brothers weren't omnipotent, because they had trouble fighting each other, they weren't omniscient (or else they would already know the outcome of every fight before they set it up), etc.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
The Brothers weren't omnipotent, because they had trouble fighting each other, they weren't omniscient (or else they would already know the outcome of every fight before they set it up), etc.
That was the problem, it was a paradox, two omnipotent beings fighting eachother, no one could win nor lose.
Omniscient, no, since the realities just connected there were many things that they didnt know about.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Instead of spreading it across all vs boards, lets keep it in one place, here.

I am going by the fact that they were stated to be supreme, the two staffs fighting about which were the best.
Thats why the nominated heroes (the brothers choosed a couple of heroes to fight for all reality) and let them fight.
In the end they agreed to be equal "You have done well"

And also going by the fact that they were supreme.

So it's either:

Blue Brother > Presence
Red Brother > The-One-Above-All

or

Blue Brother = Presence
Red Brtoher = The-One-Abve-All Funny... because based on your logic, LT and Spectre can fuse two people who made them, and made their every powers.

But no, awesome logic I must say.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
That was the problem, it was a paradox, two omnipotent beings fighting eachother, no one could win nor lose.
Omniscient, no, since the realities just connected there were many things that they didnt know about.

No, the fact that neither of them were capable of defeating the other, means that neither of them were omnipotent.

Originally posted by WorldWarHulk
Funny... because based on your logic, LT and Spectre can fuse two people who made them, and made their every powers.

But no, awesome logic I must say. Again, once the Brothers were merged, did you see them trying to separate themselves?

I didn't.



There has been certain people saying the Brothers were "owned".

The fact is, they were not.



The Brothers never resisted being merged by Spectre and LT, and once they were merged, the Brothers never attempted to separate themselves.

This event was far from ownage, and wouldn't lead me to think Spectre or LT were in any way more powerful then the Brothers.


The fact of the matter is, LT and Spectre were AWED by the power of the Brothers.

"Power is unleashed that none have ever witnessed....."
"And The Spectre and The Living Tribunal are Awed":
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/9734/bro15qz2.th.jpghttp://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5062/bro16bi3.th.jpg



As for this thread, do I believe the Bros were meant to be supreme?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
No, the fact that neither of them were capable of defeating the other, means that neither of them were omnipotent. Question?

What happens when two truly Omnipotent beings fight each other?



Exactly.

They stalemate.

Dang Galant you beat me to it, however there is one scan you missed.

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/1834/bro18ln6wr9.th.jpg

Spectre (Logos) and the Living Tribunal couldent affect the Brothers. Even though they tried to get their attention, they were beneath their notecing.

Originally posted by Galan007
Again, once the Brothers were merged, did you see them trying to separate themselves?

I didn't.



There has been certain people saying the Brothers were "owned".

The fact is, they were not.



The Brothers never resisted being merged by Spectre and LT, and once they were merged, the Brothers never attempted to separate themselves.

This event was far from ownage, and wouldn't lead me to think Spectre or LT were in any way more powerful then the Brothers.


The fact of the matter is, LT and Spectre were AWED by the power of the Brothers.

"Power is unleashed that none have ever witnessed....."
"And The Spectre and The Living Tribunal are Awed":
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/9734/bro15qz2.th.jpghttp://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5062/bro16bi3.th.jpg



As for this thread, do I believe the Bros were meant to be supreme?

i agree.

Originally posted by guy222
Interesting

I will admit to this before this turns into an all out war between Marvel and DC. Post means Before. Pre Brothers were awesome. Post Brothers work for LT. Nuff said

Originally posted by Galan007
Question?

What happens when two truly Omnipotent beings fight each other?



Exactly.

They stalemate.

No, nothing happens, because it's impossible to have more than one truly omnipotent being. If it is stated that there are more than one, then at least one of them is not omnipotent.

Originally posted by Galan007
Again, once the Brothers were merged, did you see them trying to separate themselves?

I didn't.



There has been certain people saying the Brothers were "owned".

The fact is, they were not.



The Brothers never resisted being merged by Spectre and LT, and once they were merged, the Brothers never attempted to separate themselves.

This event was far from ownage, and wouldn't lead me to think Spectre or LT were in any way more powerful then the Brothers.


The fact of the matter is, LT and Spectre were AWED by the power of the Brothers.

"Power is unleashed that none have ever witnessed....."
"And The Spectre and The Living Tribunal are Awed":
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/9734/bro15qz2.th.jpghttp://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5062/bro16bi3.th.jpg



As for this thread, do I believe the Bros were meant to be supreme? I never said anything about the other things.

You really think that Spectre and LT could fuse the Gods of their universes?

Also...
"The brothers are not happy about it."
http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/1695/dcvsmarvel04p04cl9.th.jpg

It seems that Spectre and LT are actaully fighting against a force to do this...
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4071/dcvsmarvel04p06rd3.th.jpg

Look, I don't give a shit if Spectre, or LT were mere pissants to the Brothers.
Fact is, they held them together, and I know for damn sure, Spectre, and LT together aren't doing that to the Gods of their respective universes.

So, unless Spectre, and LT could do that to Jeebus, or God, that kind of rules them out, of being God.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
No, nothing happens, because it's impossible to have more than one truly omnipotent being. If it is stated that there are more than one, then at least one of them is not omnipotent.
It was stated that they couldent exist with their lack of uniqeness.
They couldent exist together in harmony, the balance tiltet.

Every being is uniqe, since they consist of different atoms, they are different indivudual's and so forth. Now these beings were exactly the same, they were light, darkness, emotions, senses, all energy and matter the universes consisted of.

But the one can not kill the other without the other willing so, so it ended up in a stalemate.

If TOAA and Presence was above Amalglam brothers... they would interfere. WHich they didn't. They are intelligent beings, they wouldn't want to be fused together

Originally posted by WorldWarHulk
I never said anything about the other things.

You really think that Spectre and LT could fuse the Gods of their universes?

Also...
"The brothers are not happy about it."
http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/1695/dcvsmarvel04p04cl9.th.jpg

It seems that Spectre and LT are actaully fighting against a force to do this...
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4071/dcvsmarvel04p06rd3.th.jpg

Look, I don't give a shit if Spectre, or LT were mere pissants to the Brothers.
Fact is, they held them together, and I know for damn sure, Spectre, and LT together aren't doing that to the Gods of their respective universes.

So, unless Spectre, and LT could do that to Jeebus, or God, that kind of rules them out, of being God.
They didnt notice it, at least not on panel until they broke free.
In fact they even thought they merged together by own will.

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/7332/bro9yv2hb7.th.jpg

"The Brothers are setting the contest their own way...

And you're forgetting, they were supreme.

And even thoguh Spectre and the Living Tribunal fought they they were beneath their notecing. Less than flies.

This is just a view of mine not set in stone, but i like this thread and thought i would participate

I think they could be greater than TOAA and the Presence
Issue #2 marvel vs DC has some interesting info

i would say they are like the parents of TOAA and the Presence

i am at work and will try and put more input at times

Originally posted by WorldWarHulk
Look, I don't give a shit if Spectre, or LT were mere pissants to the Brothers.
Fact is, they held them together, and I know for damn sure, Spectre, and LT together aren't doing that to the Gods of their respective universes. Fact is,

The Brothers never fought being merged in the first place.

Just because the Bros weren't happy about it, does not mean they fought the merger.


Now if they had fought the merger and failed, (which they didn't), then I could see people trying to bring more light to the scans you posted.

However, those scans are really meaningless if we are trying to compare the Brothers to LT/Spectre.


Now the scan(s) I posted........ You know, the ones that say LT and Spectre were AWED by the power of the Brothers, is most certainly one worth mentioning.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
No, nothing happens, because it's impossible to have more than one truly omnipotent being. If it is stated that there are more than one, then at least one of them is not omnipotent. This makes no sense.

Are you trying to say that one company (Marvel or DC), can have a truly omnipotent being, and the other company can not?

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I hate Amalgam Comics.

Originally posted by WorldWarHulk
I never said anything about the other things.

You really think that Spectre and LT could fuse the Gods of their universes?

Also...
"The brothers are not happy about it."
http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/1695/dcvsmarvel04p04cl9.th.jpg

It seems that Spectre and LT are actaully fighting against a force to do this...
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4071/dcvsmarvel04p06rd3.th.jpg

Look, I don't give a shit if Spectre, or LT were mere pissants to the Brothers.
Fact is, they held them together, and I know for damn sure, Spectre, and LT together aren't doing that to the Gods of their respective universes.

So, unless Spectre, and LT could do that to Jeebus, or God, that kind of rules them out, of being God.

I agree.

Originally posted by Galan007
Fact is,

The Brothers never fought being merged in the first place.

There's another fact,

The Brothers were going to Obliterate One of the Two Universes,

that's when Spectre and LT made their "Last ditch effort" to save everything.

So in fact,

LT and Spectre resisted the Brothers' from acting out that plan,

by pulling both Realities together.


Originally posted by Galan007
However, those scans are really meaningless if we are trying to compare the Brothers to LT/Spectre.

You mean the ones depicting Spectre and LT physically holding the Merger together?


Even struggling, yet the Brothers were not trying to break free.? hm


Originally posted by Galan007
Now the scan(s) I posted........ You know, the ones that say LT and Spectre were AWED by the power of the Brothers, is most certainly one worth mentioning.

You mean the statement?

The LT and Spectre would never Own TOAA and the Presence,

but LT and Spectre DID OWN these Brothers momentarily:



"The Brothers are MERGING Realities, combining Universes"
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1752/one262ai.th.jpg

(Actually we find out in the Next Issue, that the Living Tribunal and Spectre were the ones that MERGED the TWO Universes BY FORCE!)





When LT and Spectre MERGED the TWO Universes/Brothers, (by Force)

the Brothers became ONE Universe called the Amalgam Universe

(basically a Mixture of BOTH)

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/2343/br1bn2.th.jpg





"He had thought the MERGING was the DOING of the Brothers,

it was NOT"

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/2453/br2sj1.th.jpg
"because of the War, ONE of the Universes faced being hurled INTO OBLIVION"





"And the Cosmic Guardians ... the Living Tribunal and Spectre,

are HOLDING it ALL TOGETHER" (by Force)

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/6881/br3vf3.th.jpg
"Their effort Created a Amalgam Universe ... the Brother aren't Happy about it"





The Living Tribunal and Spectre were struggling to keep the Brothers MERGED.

But they still succeeded in doing so: (momentarily)

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1033/ltspni4.th.jpg



Catch LT and Spectre trying to do this to TOAA or the Presence

Who ever these Brothers were supposed to be,

it sure wasn't TOAA & Presence.

I don't care what excuse cats come up with to disregard the FACTS.


This merger would never be possible on TOAA & the Presence,

even for an instant.


LT and Spectre Merged the Brothers, and kept them Merged against their will.

The Brothers wanted to destroy One of themselves,


and LT and Spectre did NOT allow this by Merging both Realities instead.


Owned! (momentarily though)


swank




btw. This Merger was going to destroy BOTH Brothers,

had it not been for Access who helped LT and Spectre separate them safely.



"When it looked like the Universes would be Obliterated"

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/731/b1ll3.th.jpg

"We're still here indicates our Universes coexisting rather than smashed together"



LT and Spectre even say,

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/6078/b2ze1.th.jpg

The Universes are momentarily safe"

"It is nothing short of miraculous they exist at all"



So it's interesting,

Spectre and LT were "awed" when the they saw the Brothers battling,

but they were not "awed" that they themselves nearly obliterated both Brothers.

dontgetit

Originally posted by BaptizedAtheist
If TOAA and Presence was above Amalglam brothers... they would interfere. WHich they didn't. They are intelligent beings, they wouldn't want to be fused together

I agree


Could Lt and Spectre do what they did to TOAA and The
Presence
Yes if thats what the writers and editors wanted from both companies
Can we say the amalgamation fused entity is more powerfull than One (TOAA or The presence)

How many stories involve a second in command going against his boss, and winning. or a more powerfull boss getting beat by his student-it happens

It might not be Canon but it was written by both companies and we can see with all the legalities,the money making,they wanted to tell a story and i am sure the story was agreed by both companies

For the Marvel Vs DC Crossover the brothers could be more powerfull than TOAA and The Presence

Just some thoughts on the matter

I am just putting out some ideas

For this story i can see the brothers as the parents of TOAA and the presence

They gave birth to TOAA and The presence
We know that LT or Spectre never made a reference that their respective bosses were involved
They were in awe of them
LT and Spectre were unoticed by them or insignificant

We know they were all that was and they had a fight which resulted in a a death and rebirth which created multiverses- i think thats when TOAA and The presence were born and the brothers forgot about eachother untill the surfer/GL crossover

Starlock, you're obviously lost here. For one, you're creeping WAY past speculation here. Two, the brothers obviously weren't far and away stronger than Spectre and Tribunal, as the pulled the two together. Three; if these WERE the representatives of TOAA and The Presence , then they certainly would not, could not act against that will, and thus certainly, could not do so to a being that created their omnipotent creators.

Originally posted by Juntai
Starlock, you're obviously lost here. For one, you're creeping WAY past speculation here. Two, the brothers obviously weren't far and away stronger than Spectre and Tribunal, as the pulled the two together. Three; if these WERE the representatives of TOAA and The Presence , then they certainly would not, could not act against that will, and thus certainly, could not do so to a being that created their omnipotent creators.

Hey there juntai

Issue #2 of Marvel vs DC leads me to believe that they were their before The presence and Toaa at the begining
When Marvel was Atlas and such, and after the surfer/Gl crossover they became aware of eachother again

I wont post again its ok,i thought this was the place to bring up ideas and thoughts about the brothers, i did not know i was lost

Sorry Thanos_thotu,it was not my intention to offend anyone

Originally posted by Mr Master
Catch LT and Spectre trying to do this to TOAA or the Presence.

Who ever these Brothers were supposed to be,

it sure wasn't TOAA & Presence. Care to explain this then?

"Power is unleashed that none have ever witnessed....."
"And The Spectre and The Living Tribunal are Awed":
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/9734/bro15qz2.th.jpghttp://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5062/bro16bi3.th.jpg


How many times have LT or Spectre been AWED by another beings power?



And if LT and Spectre "owned" the Bros once as you said, then why were they incapable of stopping them again here:
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/1834/bro18ln6wr9.th.jpg

(I see them trying to stop the Bros, but I also see their efforts failing).

Originally posted by Juntai
Starlock, you're obviously lost here. For one, you're creeping WAY past speculation here. Two, the brothers obviously weren't far and away stronger than Spectre and Tribunal, as the pulled the two together. Three; if these WERE the representatives of TOAA and The Presence , then they certainly would not, could not act against that will, and thus certainly, could not do so to a being that created their omnipotent creators.

clap3 Perfectly put.

Originally posted by Mr Master
clap3 Perfectly put.

Originally posted by Galan007
Care to explain this then?

"Power is unleashed that none have ever witnessed....."
"And The Spectre and The Living Tribunal are Awed":

How many times have LT or Spectre been AWED by another beings power?

Brother G,

I never said LT and Spectre were made to be more powerful than these Brothers.

So I'm not surprised they were amazed at what they saw.


My contention is that these Brothers, how ever powerful they were,

they were certainly NOT the Supreme Beings, or anywhere near TOAA & Presence.

Why?

Because Spectre and LT were able to affect them, beyond affect,

Spectre and LT Merged the Brothers, who were Two Universes, and made them One.

That's the Re-Structuring of BOTH entire Realities.



Then again, it's all Non-Canon anyway, so I shouldn't be surprised.


Originally posted by Galan007
And if LT and Spectre "owned" the Bros once as you said, then why were they incapable of stopping them again here:

(I see them trying to stop the Bros, but I also see their efforts failing).

Well this demonstrates that the Brothers were more powerful than LT and Spectre in this Non-Canon Arc,

BUT,

LT and Spectre still managed to momentarily Warp the shit out of both Brothers.


In fact the Merger was going to destroy Both Brothers. (Let's Not Forget)


So while I agree that the Brothers were more powerful than LT and Spectre.

I must also contend that LT and Spectre were able to obliterate both Brothers On Panel by Merging them.


It's a fact, and it should be known.

Originally posted by Galan007
This makes no sense.

Are you trying to say that one company (Marvel or DC), can have a truly omnipotent being, and the other company can not?

In a crossover, yes.

It's logically impossible for two omnipotent beings to exist.

Besides, the mere fact that they couldn't defeat each other, and that they didn't automatically know the results of the battles before they even started, proves they're not omnipotent.

In fact, it's hard to say if anything in fiction is really omnipotent, because if you think about it, a true omnipotent being would only have to act once, and then everything would be perfectly the way the being wanted it to be, forever into the future as it would be all - knowing.

Any being that acts more than once is not omnipotent.

Originally posted by Mr Master
So while I agree that the Brothers were more powerful than LT and Spectre. That's all I wanted to clarify.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
It's logically impossible for two omnipotent beings to exist. I disagree with this.

How is it impossible for two omnipotent beings to exist, especially when one of these beings represented Marvel, and the other represented DC?


Please explain to me exactly why this is an impossibility?
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Besides, the mere fact that they couldn't defeat each other,Again,

The Bros powers were exactly equal.


What happens when two beings whom are exactly equal in power, battle each other?

They stalemate, (which is what happened with the Bros).
Originally posted by Endless Mike
and that they didn't automatically know the results of the battles before they even started, proves they're not omnipotent.What you're referring to is omniscience.

In the comic world, omniscience and omnipotence don't always go hand in hand.


Meaning that in comics, someone can gain omnipotence, but not gain the omniscience that should logically come with it.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Any being that acts more than once is not omnipotent.
Unless this being is fighting another being who is his equal in every way.

Originally posted by Galan007
That's all I wanted to clarify.

This is all I wanted to clarify: shifty
Originally posted by Mr Master
So while I agree that the Brothers were more powerful than LT and Spectre.

I must also contend

that LT and Spectre were able to Obliterate both Brothers On Panel,

by Merging them.


It's a fact,

and it should be known.

Originally posted by Galan007
I disagree with this.

How is it impossible for two omnipotent beings to exist, especially when one of these beings represented Marvel, and the other represented DC?


Please explain to me exactly why this is an impossibility?

Because if one being is omnipotent, then, by definition, that being can do anything.

If another being is supposedly omnipotent, then that being can oppose the first being. If the first being can be opposed, then it can't do anything, and is thus not omnipotent. The same holds true for the second being.



You don't get it. An omnipotent, by definition, has no equals.

Logical deconstruction -

The first Amalgam brother is omnipotent - Premise

Given any ability, the first Amalgam brother has that ability - Definition of omnipotence

The first Amalgam brother was unable to foresee the results of the DC vs. Marvel fights, or defeat the second Amalgam brother - Shown in the comic.

Points 1 and 3 contradict each other, therefore point 1 is wrong. Apply the same for the second Amalgam brother.



"Omniscience is a necessary corollary of Omnipotence" - Dr. Doom.

If you're omnipotent, you can know anything just by wanting to. Why would they want to set up the fights if they could just know the outcomes by wanting to know?



Which would mean that neither of them are omnipotent, because an omnipotent being, by definition, has no equals.

Originally posted by Galan007
especially when one of these beings represented Marvel,

and the other represented DC?

I find this notion contradictory to On Panel scenerios depicted like this one:



"When it looked like the Universes would be Obliterated"
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/5138/br8qc7.th.jpg
"the Bum helped me jump someplace, Inbetween,

someplace where NO ASPECT of the Brothers Existed"



How can there be a place that the Brothers are not a part of,

if they encompass all of Marvel and DC? (everything) hum






And where is this place exactly?

Where is this exra-dimensional Space coming from, if the Brothers are all?

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/5840/br10nk6.th.jpg

Sure Bats, & Cap can barely comprehend what they're seeing but it's still,

"someplace, Inbetween, someplace where NO ASPECT of the Brothers Existed"


SO where is this place?


This, amongst other reasons, is why this garbage is NON-CANON!

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Because if one being is omnipotent, then, by definition, that being can do anything.

If another being is supposedly omnipotent, then that being can oppose the first being. If the first being can be opposed, then it can't do anything, and is thus not omnipotent. The same holds true for the second being. If TOAA in Marvel fought the Presence in DC, what would happen?

Because we know that these characters are both omnipotent.

Yet I have a hard time believing that one of them could beat the other.



Originally posted by Endless Mike
If you're omnipotent, you can know anything just by wanting to.Again,

This doesn't always hold true in the comic world.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Which would mean that neither of them are omnipotent, because an omnipotent being, by definition, has no equals.
Originally posted by Galan007
If TOAA in Marvel fought the Presence in DC, what would happen?

Because we know that these characters are both omnipotent.

Yet I have a hard time believing that one of them could beat the other.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I find this notion contradictory to On Panel scenerios depicted like this one: The meaning of what I said was simply that,

The Red Brother represented Marvel.

The Blue Brother represented DC.


Whether or not they represented the "sum total" of their companies, wasn't even commented upon.


Though this scan kind of speaks for itself, where that part of the debate is concerned:
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1076/bro5vc5.th.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007
If TOAA in Marvel fought the Presence in DC, what would happen?

Because we know that these characters are both omnipotent.

Yet I have a hard time believing that one of them could beat the other.

That's just it, it would be impossible for them to fight, because if one existed, then, by definition, the other one could not exist. So asking who would win a fight between two omnipotent beings is like asking what would happen if you had a square circle. It's logically impossible.



It holds true according to the definition of omnipotence "All - powerful, able to do anything".

If there's something you can't do, then, by definition, you're not omnipotent. Unless you're redefining omnipotent to mean something else.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
That's just it, it would be impossible for them to fight, because if one existed, then, by definition, the other one could not exist. So asking who would win a fight between two omnipotent beings is like asking what would happen if you had a square circle. It's logically impossible.So it's impossible for these beings to exist together just because they're omnipotent?


That makes no sense....


But answer the question, if those 2 omnipotent beings were able to battle each other, who would come out on top?

Or would they stalemate?
Originally posted by Endless Mike
It holds true according to the definition of omnipotence "All - powerful, able to do anything".

If there's something you can't do, then, by definition, you're not omnipotent. Unless you're redefining omnipotent to mean something else. If we are going by "real world" definitions, you are correct.


But the real world and the comic world differ in many ways.


Beings who have held omnipotence in comics, have not always been omniscient.

That much is a fact.

Originally posted by Galan007
So it's impossible for these beings to exist together just because they're omnipotent?


That makes no sense....


But answer the question, if those 2 omnipotent beings were able to battle each other, who would come out on top?

It's impossible to answer, because it's impossible to have more than one omnipotent being.



So that means they're not truly omnipotent.

Let me ask you this, if someone suggested a fight between a being that was supposedly "omnipotent" but not omniscient, and a being that was supposedly omnipotent and omniscient, who do you think would win?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
It's impossible to answer, because it's impossible to have more than one omnipotent being.Still makes no sense, but whatever.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
So that means they're not truly omnipotent.

Let me ask you this, if someone suggested a fight between a being that was supposedly "omnipotent" but not omniscient, and a being that was supposedly omnipotent and omniscient, who do you think would win? That's an obvious answer, but not really what I was getting at.


Who would win between pre-retcon Beyonder v.s. a being who was his exact equal in EVERY way?

Beyonder was a prime example of a character who was omnipotent, but not omniscient.


So if those 2 battled, what would happen?

Originally posted by Galan007
Still makes no sense, but whatever.

It makes perfect sense.... if you introduce limitations to an omnipotent being, then that being is not omnipotent, and never was.



Well it is what I was getting at. If the obvious answer is that the omnipotent + omniscient being would win, then the first "omnipotent" being would have been defeated and overcome. For an omnipotent being, that's impossible, by the very definition of omnipotence. So therefore, your idea of omnipotence isn't really omnipotence at all.



PR Beyonder was not omnipotent, he had limitations, he was often surprised by things, he was challenged by Molecule Man....

The fact that he was not omniscient proves that he was not omnipotent. You can have omniscience but lack omnipotence, but not the other way around.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
It makes perfect sense.... if you introduce limitations to an omnipotent being, then that being is not omnipotent, and never was.Who had limitations?



Originally posted by Endless Mike
Well it is what I was getting at. If the obvious answer is that the omnipotent + omniscient being would win, then the first "omnipotent" being would have been defeated and overcome. For an omnipotent being, that's impossible, by the very definition of omnipotence. So therefore, your idea of omnipotence isn't really omnipotence at all.Of course this is correct, in the real world.

But again, in comics you CAN have omnipotence but not omniscience.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
PR Beyonder was not omnipotent, he had limitations, he was often surprised by things, he was challenged by Molecule Man.... If you're omnipotent, yet not omniscient you would be surprised by things.

And MM only "challenged" Beyonder, until Beyonder actually tried.


This doesn't disprove omnipotence.

Originally posted by Galan007
The meaning of what I said was simply that,

The Red Brother represented Marvel.

The Blue Brother represented DC.

Cool.


Originally posted by Galan007
Whether or not they represented the "sum total" of their companies, wasn't even commented upon.

Earlier on you said they were the Supreme Beings IYO.

That's why I said that,

if you feel differently now, that's good.


Originally posted by Galan007
Though this scan kind of speaks for itself, where that part of the debate is concerned:

The debate concerns the Amalgam Brothers, so everything about them is of concern.

So yea, that Scan says that, but other scans from the same Arc contradict that.


It's not your fault really, the Creators of this nonsense are to blame.

Originally posted by Galan007
Who had limitations?

TOAA and the Presence have no limitations. But if you introduce one to another in a crossover scenario, then they are given limitations by not being able to instantly defeat each other.



So then your definition of "omnipotence in comics" isn't real omnipotence at all, and is just meaningless.



Yes it does, because if he was omnipotent, he could have just wanted to know something, and he would instantly know it.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
That's just it, it would be impossible for them to fight, because if one existed, then, by definition, the other one could not exist. So asking who would win a fight between two omnipotent beings is like asking what would happen if you had a square circle. It's logically impossible.



It holds true according to the definition of omnipotence "All - powerful, able to do anything".

If there's something you can't do, then, by definition, you're not omnipotent. Unless you're redefining omnipotent to mean something else.
It was even stated that they couldent exist to their lack of uniqeness.
That's why they fought.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
It was even stated that they couldent exist to their lack of uniqeness.
That's why they fought.

Yet they did exist, so therefore they weren't omnipotent.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
TOAA and the Presence have no limitations. But if you introduce one to another in a crossover scenario, then they are given limitations by not being able to instantly defeat each other.

So then your definition of "omnipotence in comics" isn't real omnipotence at all, and is just meaningless.

Yes it does, because if he was omnipotent, he could have just wanted to know something, and he would instantly know it.
In comics you can surpass infinity, give characters different levels of omnipotence and so forth.
As Einstein said. With logic you could go from A to B, but with fantasy you could go everywhere.
The comics isnt logialy based, they can invent levels beyond omnipotence, it's not hard at all.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Yet they did exist, so therefore they weren't omnipotent.
But then again, fantasy >> logic, since logic has limitation on its own.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
TOAA and the Presence have no limitations. But if you introduce one to another in a crossover scenario, then they are given limitations by not being able to instantly defeat each other. Why?

They are both Omnipotent, they would stalemate eternally.

One infinity can not be greater then another, but there can be more then one infinity.

A characters power-set doesn't change this.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
So then your definition of "omnipotence in comics" isn't real omnipotence at all, and is just meaningless.It depends.

The only truly omnipotent/omniscient character(s) in comics are TOAA/Presence.

But just as there are more then one level of infinity (in comics), there are also more then one level of omnipotence (in comics).

Beyonder, and Thanos /w/ THOTI were both omnipotent, but not omniscient.

TOAA/Presence would have still been more powerful then them.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Yes it does, because if he was omnipotent, he could have just wanted to know something, and he would instantly know it. real world? Yes.

Comic world? Not necessarily.

In logical sense, one omnipotent would be one too much, in other words. Omnipotence is impossible.

Originally posted by Galan007
Beyonder, and Thanos /w/ THOTI were both omnipotent, but not omniscient.

Actually Thanos had Omniversal Omniscience, but was still below TOAA.

Beyonder was omniscient, but not in the absolute sense.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
But then again, fantasy >> logic, since logic has limitation on its own.

So you admit your position is illogical.

I win by default then.

Originally posted by Galan007
Why?

They are both Omnipotent, they would stalemate eternally.

One infinity can not be greater then another, but there can be more then one infinity.

A characters power-set doesn't change this.

Omnipotence isn't the same as infinite power. Omnipotence means the ability to do anything, with no limitations whatsoever. If two beings cannot defeat each other, then, by definition, neither of them are omnipotent.



What you mean is that Beyonder and HOTU are extremely potent, but not omnipotent.



Special pleading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading

Originally posted by Endless Mike
So you admit your position is illogical.

I win by default then.
No, the point is, Spider-man's power is illogical, to lift 10 tons you would need the musles of 10-20 elephants, so Spider-man is illogical, so is Superman and so forth.
But we don't say that Superman loses by default while fighting Punisher.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Omnipotence isn't the same as infinite power. Omnipotence means the ability to do anything, with no limitations whatsoever. If two beings cannot defeat each other, then, by definition, neither of them are omnipotent.

What you mean is that Beyonder and HOTU are extremely potent, but not omnipotent. This goes back to the age old question, which really proves that nothing can be truly omnipotent.


If TOAA was trying, could he create a boulder so large, that he could not lift it?


If yes, then TOAA didn't do what he meant to do.... Proving he was not omnipotent.

If no, then TOAA didn't do what he meant to do.... Proving he was not omnipotent.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
No, the point is, Spider-man's power is illogical, to lift 10 tons you would need the musles of 10-20 elephants, so Spider-man is illogical, so is Superman and so forth.
But we don't say that Superman loses by default while fighting Punisher.

No, their powers defy physics, not logic.

It's not illogical to have a flying, sentient icecube the size of saturn that can shoot fireballs.

It is illogical to have an icecube the size of saturn which is both spherical and cubical at the same time.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
In logical sense, one omnipotent would be one too much, in other words. Omnipotence is impossible. Originally posted by Galan007
This goes back to the age old question, which really proves that nothing can be truly omnipotent.


If TOAA was trying, could he create a boulder so large, that he could not lift it?


If yes, then TOAA didn't do what he meant to do.... Proving he was not omnipotent.

If no, then TOAA didn't do what he meant to do.... Proving he was not omnipotent.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
No, their powers defy physics, not logic.

It's not illogical to have a flying, sentient icecube the size of saturn that can shoot fireballs.

It is illogical to have an icecube the size of saturn which is both spherical and cubical at the same time.

Nice.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
No, their powers defy physics, not logic.
I think you missunderstood it at some point.
Physics = Logical

If: 1, 2, 3, 1, 2 ... is a pattern, then logicaly 3 would be the following.
Logicaly 1 + 1 = 2
Don't you think that if I made a comic I could twist reality so that 1 + 1 = 3 there?
Same goes for Superman's power.

Originally posted by Galan007
This goes back to the age old question, which really proves that nothing can be truly omnipotent.


If TOAA was trying, could he create a boulder so large, that he could not lift it?


If yes, then TOAA didn't do what he meant to do.... Proving he was not omnipotent.

If no, then TOAA didn't do what he meant to do.... Proving he was not omnipotent.

So therefore you redefine omnipotence to mean something other than what it really means.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
I think you missunderstood it at some point.
Physics = Logical

If: 1, 2, 3, 1, 2 ... is a pattern, then logicaly 3 would be the following.
Logicaly 1 + 1 = 2
Don't you think that if I made a comic I could twist reality so that 1 + 1 = 3 there?
Same goes for Superman's power.

Physics are subject to logic, but defying physics isn't a logical impossibility.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
No, their powers defy physics, not logic.

It's not illogical to have a flying, sentient ice cube the size of saturn that can shoot fireballs.

It is illogical to have an ice cube the size of saturn which is both spherical and cubical at the same time. Unless this ice cube is a sphere within a cube.

In that case not only could it be both, but it would make logical sense.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
So therefore you redefine omnipotence to mean something other than what it really means. I redefined nothing.

It is a genuine question, which really disproves omnipotence.

I'm just glad that this is a Non-Canon event.

I'm even more glad,

that this "Brothers" idea was brought into Continuity with a comprehensible approach.

Now, since it was retconned into Continuity it fell in place with the rest of the Canonically established Historical Facts,

concerning Marvel atleast.



And the Retcon IS now Official, at Marvel.com, even DC is mentioned, the Spectre and the Writers of both Companies.

It does not go into details of what became of DC's Brother, but Marvel's is covered.

Originally posted by Galan007
Unless this ice cube is a sphere within a cube.

In that case not only could it be both, but it would make logical sense.

No, the overall shape, not any subshape, is both a sphere and a cube at the same time. Logically impossible.

Originally posted by Galan007
I redefined nothing.

It is a genuine question, which really disproves omnipotence.

Yet you still say that beings who have shown limitations are omnipotent.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Physics are subject to logic, but defying physics isn't a logical impossibility.
You're still able to defy logic in comics.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
You're still able to defy logic in comics.

Can you give an example?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Can you give an example?
Surpass infinity?
Have more than one omnipotent, in Marvel there are many omnipotent beings, it have been stated a couple of times.
And so forth.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Surpass infinity?
Have more than one omnipotent, in Marvel there are many omnipotent beings, it have been stated a couple of times.
And so forth.

No, in Marvel there is only one true omnipotent, TOAA. Some others may be stated to be omnipotent, but their demonstrated limitations prove those statements to be false.

As for surpassing infinity, look up Cardinal Numbers.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
No, in Marvel there is only one true omnipotent, TOAA. Some others may be stated to be omnipotent, but their demonstrated limitations prove those statements to be false.

As for surpassing infinity, look up Cardinal Numbers.
Living Tribunal stated that the Beyonders, though bellow him, are omnipotent beings.

It would be like saying are there more numbers between 0-1 than 0-infinity, there are exactly as many.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU


Hey T,

your Sig is incomplete and gives a false impression of what I was saying.

You partially quoted my post,

and left out the rest that shows the sarcasm I intended.



"Again, the DC & Marvel Brothers could have been beyond TOAA and the Presence,

cause it's a Non-Canon arc, just like Aunt May could be beyond TOAA"




Anything goes in a Non-Canon event, Writers can do anything.


Were these Brothers = to or beyond TOAA & Presence?

Who cares?

It makes no difference concerning Comics that matter.



Just wanted to clear that up for the record.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
No, the overall shape, not any subshape, is both a sphere and a cube at the same time. Logically impossible. K, well you didn't specify that the first time, so I had to throw it out there. Originally posted by Endless Mike
Yet you still say that beings who have shown limitations are omnipotent. Answer me this in yes or no form please.

Can TOAA, (absolutely omnipotent/omniscient within Marvel),

create a boulder so heavy that he could not lift it?



Either way you answer proves that omnipotence in the literal sense is an impossibility, (even within comic-dom).

Originally posted by Mr Master
Hey T,

your Sig is incomplete and gives a false impression of what I was saying.

You partially quoted my post,

and left out the rest that shows the sarcasm I intended.
I said it before. The entire post don't fit.



It's the same as Beyonder (pre-retcon) since his action is not canon, as well as the Brother's.

Originally posted by Galan007
.

Can TOAA, (absolutely omnipotent/omniscient within Marvel),

create a boulder so heavy that he could not lift it?



Either way you answer proves that omnipotence in the literal sense is an impossibility, (even within comic-dom).
One of those omnipotent paradoxes would be the answer for that.
Can a Omnipotent being create a stone so heavy he cannot lift it?
Can he make himself more powerful?
Ect.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
One of those omnipotent paradoxes would be the answer for that.
Can a Omnipotent being create a stone so heavy he cannot lift it?
Can he make himself more powerful?
Ect. Well if a "truly omnipotent" being could make a stone so heavy he could not lift it, this means the being was not truly omnipotent.

If the being could not make a stone that heavy, then he didn't carry out the given task due to lack of ability..... Which also means this being wasn't truly omnipotent.



It's a paradox for sure, but it also makes you question the concept of "true" omnipotence.

Originally posted by Galan007
Well if a "truly omnipotent" being could make a stone so heavy he could not lift it, this means the being was not truly omnipotent.

If the being could not make a stone that heavy, then he didn't carry out the given task due to lack of ability..... Which also means this being wasn't truly omnipotent.



It's a paradox for sure, but it also makes you question the concept of "true" omnipotence.
Again, this is where Einstein's little quote "With logic you can go from A to B, but with imagination you can go everywhere." comes in.
With fantasy you can make, and even surpass omnipotence.

All we know is that other beings have been refered to as omnipotent.
And those have been refered to as supreme of all Marvel and DC, so if they arent omnipotent then no one in Marvel or DC is.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
With fantasy you can make, and even surpass omnipotence. By definition, omnipotence is unsurpassible.


Omnipotence:

(literally, "all power", is power with no limits or inexhaustible, in other words, unlimited power.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence



So if a being already has limitless power, then there would be no way to gain more power.

If this being was able to gain more power, then it was not truly omnipotent to begin with.

Imagination ...

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Imagination ... I can't imagine a being with greater than omnipotent power, (if that's even possible). lsd

Originally posted by Galan007
I can't imagine a being with greater than omnipotent power, (if that's even possible). lsd
Logicaly no, imaginationly (or whatever you call it) yes.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Logicaly no, imaginationly (or whatever you call it) yes. Infinity + 1?

Now that's pushing it...... Even by comic standards.

Originally posted by Galan007
Infinity + 1?

Now that's pushing it...... Even by comic standards.
Pretty much, and no I don't think it's punching it, not too far at least.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Pretty much, and no I don't think it's punching it, not too far at least. In the comic world, I might be able to see some stupid shit like that being published, especially by Marvel.... (they seem to be more into the whole "greater levels of infinity" BS).

But using real logic, nothing can be greater than infinity, and nothing can have greater than omnipotent power.

But there can be more then one of each IMO.

Groups of infinity, like this:

1,2,4 1,2,4 1,2,4 1,2,4 ...

and larger sets, like say: 9,8,1,5,0 9,8,1,5,0 9,8,1,5,0 9,8,1,5,0 ...


but what infinite groupings of numbers have to do with 'power', and where marvel got the idea of doing this in the first place is beyond me...

Originally posted by Ethereal
Groups of infinity, like this:

1,2,4 1,2,4 1,2,4 1,2,4 ...

and larger sets, like say: 9,8,1,5,0 9,8,1,5,0 9,8,1,5,0 9,8,1,5,0 ...


but what infinite groupings of numbers have to do with 'power', and where marvel got the idea of doing this in the first place is beyond me... I know, it was flawed from the beginning lol.

Because, no infinite set of numbers could be greater than another infinite set of numbers.

If one set were greater then the other.... Then the smaller of the two was never truly infinite to begin with.



Infinity = Infinity...

There is no infinity + 1.

IMO it was published to insult the intelligence of the readers.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
The Brothers weren't omnipotent, because they had trouble fighting each other, they weren't omniscient (or else they would already know the outcome of every fight before they set it up), etc.

Are you omnipotent? Omniscient? No?

Then how do you know?

You take Fighter A from Earth, strongest most unbeatable fighter to ever live, has beaten hundreds of people at the same time, just plain impossible to defeat.

He's essentially unbeatable because no one anyone knows about can defeat him. Unbeatable, just like Omnipotent, is a relative term that is based on context.

Now bring Fighter B from Mars, strongest and most unbeatable fighter to ever live, has beaten hundreds of people at the same time, just plain impossible to defeat.

He's essentially unbeatable because no one anyone knows about can defeat him. Unbeatable, just like omnipotent, is a relative term that is based on context.

Put Fighter A and Fighter B in a cage together, and either one is going to be better or they'll fight each other to a stalemate.

Originally posted by Nataku8188
Are you omnipotent? Omniscient? No?

Then how do you know?

You take Fighter A from Earth, strongest most unbeatable fighter to ever live, has beaten hundreds of people at the same time, just plain impossible to defeat.

He's essentially unbeatable because no one anyone knows about can defeat him. Unbeatable, just like Omnipotent, is a relative term that is based on context.

Now bring Fighter B from Mars, strongest and most unbeatable fighter to ever live, has beaten hundreds of people at the same time, just plain impossible to defeat.

He's essentially unbeatable because no one anyone knows about can defeat him. Unbeatable, just like omnipotent, is a relative term that is based on context.

Put Fighter A and Fighter B in a cage together, and either one is going to be better or they'll fight each other to a stalemate. I agree.

Originally posted by Galan007
I agree.

Of course you agree. I'm right. Omnipotent means limitless power. If something has yet to have shown a limit, than as far as perception is concerned, it's limitless. If I've lifted every set of weights you've ever asked me to lift without showing any strain, then as far as you know there is no limit to my strength. Is it actually limitless? No, but as far as you're perception is concerned it is. Just like the 'omnipotent' beings in comics, we have no way to truly know if they are omnipotent, we have just been told and lead to believe they are.

Undefeated isn't the same as omnipotent.

Omnipotent means you have no limits period, not just that you have shown none.

Originally posted by Galan007
I know, it was flawed from the beginning lol.

Because, no infinite set of numbers could be greater than another infinite set of numbers.

If one set were greater then the other.... Then the smaller of the two was never truly infinite to begin with.



Infinity = Infinity...

There is no infinity + 1.

IMO it was published to insult the intelligence of the readers.

not sure if this has already been mentioned, but infinity doesn't necessarily equal infinity. there are strata of infinity. say you start out with one hundred dollars; your friend start's out with ninety. you are each given one dollar a day for infinite days. you will always have ten more dollars, even though you both have infinity monies. ja know?

Originally posted by Galan007
Well if a "truly omnipotent" being could make a stone so heavy he could not lift it, this means the being was not truly omnipotent.

If the being could not make a stone that heavy, then he didn't carry out the given task due to lack of ability..... Which also means this being wasn't truly omnipotent.



It's a paradox for sure, but it also makes you question the concept of "true" omnipotence. Power should not be confused with strength in this regard. Without that misconception, this paradox doesn't exist.

Originally posted by Juntai
Power should not be confused with strength in this regard. Without that misconception, this paradox doesn't exist. Omnipotent is omnipotent.

If an omnipotent being wanted the strength to lift something, he should be able to will himself to have such strength.

So that paradox still holds true, even where strength is concerned.

Originally posted by Juntai
Power should not be confused with strength in this regard. Without that misconception, this paradox doesn't exist.

Put another way.

An omnipotent being should have to power to create a task that it cannot succed at. Paradox holds true.

Originally posted by Galan007
Omnipotent is omnipotent.

If an omnipotent being wanted the strength to lift something, he should be able to will himself to have such strength.

So that paradox still holds true, even where strength is concerned. An omnipotent doesn't adhere to mans perceptions all, and isn't limited to the confines of reality, especially a reality it created. If it LOWERED itself to the rules of reality to have an attribute of strength or even form at all, perhaps the paradox holds true. Until then, it does not.

Originally posted by manorastroman
not sure if this has already been mentioned, but infinity doesn't necessarily equal infinity. there are strata of infinity. say you start out with one hundred dollars; your friend start's out with ninety. you are each given one dollar a day for infinite days. you will always have ten more dollars, even though you both have infinity monies. ja know? A common mistake people make is trying to put a number on infinity.

While it's true infinity can technically start at higher and lower points, if each number set was truly infinite, it would never end.


So while infinity (X) may have started at a higher point than infinity (N).

It is impossible and illogical to say infinity (X) is truly the larger set, because each set stretches on....... Well....... Infinitely.


If at any time for the rest of eternity one of these sets of numbers ended, it was never truly infinite to begin with.



So even though one infinity might have started out at a higher point then the other, this doesn't change the fact that infinity = infinity.

a "larger" infinity does not exist, (in the real world).

Originally posted by Juntai
An omnipotent doesn't adhere to mans perceptions all, and isn't limited to the confines of reality, especially a reality it created. If it LOWERED itself to the rules of reality to have an attribute of strength or even form at all, perhaps the paradox holds true. Until then, it does not. I understand what you're saying.

But that's kind of going around the question.



If I went up to God himself and he told me I could ask one question, and no matter what I asked of him, he would accomplish or answer it with a yes or no.


And i preceded to ask him that very same question...... Figuratively speaking, since it is a paradox, it's impossible to achieve/answer "correctly".



So logically speaking this would prove against "true" omnipotence.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Put another way.

An omnipotent being should have to power to create a task that it cannot succed at. Paradox holds true. However, a true omnipotent, is the task, and the answer/resolution as well.

Originally posted by Galan007
I understand what you're saying.

But that's kind of going around the question.



If I went up to God himself and he told me I could ask one question, and no matter what I asked of him, he would accomplish or answer it with a yes or no.


And i preceded to ask him that very same question...... Figuratively, since it is a paradox, it's impossible to achieve/answer "correctly".



So logically speaking this would prove against "true" omnipotence. If you 'went up to God' and he spoke to you, he already lowered himself to your perceptions so it could be done.

Originally posted by Juntai
However, a true omnipotent, is the task, and the answer/resolution as well.

Are you refering to a true omnipotent as an entity that exists as a summation of everything?

Originally posted by Juntai
If you 'went up to God' and he spoke to you, he already lowered himself to your perceptions so it could be done. Explain to me how it can be done.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Are you refering to a true omnipotent as an entity that exists as a summation of everything? A true omnipotent would be omnipresent as well.

Originally posted by Galan007
Explain to me how it can be done. How can what be done?
You're trying to establish mans laws of physics onto an omnipotent being.

Originally posted by Juntai
Starlock, you're obviously lost here. For one, you're creeping WAY past speculation here. Two, the brothers obviously weren't far and away stronger than Spectre and Tribunal, as the pulled the two together. Three; if these WERE the representatives of TOAA and The Presence , then they certainly would not, could not act against that will, and thus certainly, could not do so to a being that created their omnipotent creators.

Juntai you're obviously lost here

I was lost ?where has this thread gone to?i watched and wanted to learn somthing and all i see is meanigless debates on Omnipotence

i thought the thread starter was trying to see who is greater,and this topic is going where?,looking back on what i said where was i lost,i was throwing ideas out about what the thread starter asked,why not start a new thread about Omnipotence? i backed out of the thread to see where it was going and because i usually respect your view

It is still my view that they were supreme and above TOAA and The Presence

DC and Marvel can write what they want
If they want LT to rebel against TOAA in a story, i am sure the comic wont end in one panel, its up to the writers and staff,it might be pis,or cis,but its there right to do so

Just trying to be fair and open minded, i hope i can expect the same from most posters i respect

Originally posted by Juntai
How can what be done?
You're trying to establish mans laws of physics onto an omnipotent being. What else do I have to establish?

I'm not omnipotent, so I can't be positive how an omnipotent being works..... Can you?


All I can be certain of is if that question was asked to an omnipotent being, there is no way to answer it correctly by...

A.) Either trying to accomplish that task.

or

B.) Answering with a yes or no.

Originally posted by starlock
Juntai you're obviously lost here

I was lost ?where has this thread gone to?i watched and wanted to learn somthing and all i see is meanigless debates on Omnipotence

i thought the thread starter was trying to see who is greater,and this topic is going where?,looking back on what i said where was i lost,i was throwing ideas out about what the thread starter asked,why not start a new thread about Omnipotence? i backed out of the thread to see where it was going and because i usually respect your view

It is still my view that they were supreme and above TOAA and The Presence

DC and Marvel can write what they want
If they want LT to rebel against TOAA in a story, i am sure the comic wont end in one panel, its up to the writers and staff,it might be pis,or cis,but its there right to do so

Just trying to be fair and open minded, i hope i can expect the same from most posters i respect The thread has gone where it's posters have taken it, as it always does. However what I said to you still stands. I didn't mean it in any degrading way. I was simply outright telling you it was wrong, and reasons why. Others pointed it out too, and also agreed with what I said there.

Spectre could not do to The Presence what it did to the Brother.
No amount of Spectre's power could affect God against it's will.
Judging by what Spectre narrated in issue 27 of volume 4, God could simply 'undream' him, and everything for that matter.

If the brothers were above that, LT and Spectre would have been as nothing, let alone forcibly merging them into one.

I don't know how many different ways I can put it.

Originally posted by Juntai
I was simply outright telling you it was wrong, and reasons why.

lol mabey you should start a thredd called "ask juntai"
and you can let all of us know weather or not our opinoins are valid and up to your standards.
why even debate any more ? no need for discution just ask juntai

Originally posted by Galan007
What else do I have to establish?

I'm not omnipotent, so I can't be positive how an omnipotent being works..... Can you?


All I can be certain of is if that question was asked to an omnipotent being, there is no way to answer it correctly by...

A.) Either trying to accomplish that task.

or

B.) Answering with a yes or no. No I can't, then again, I'm not the one trying attribute physical laws or limits to it.


It is the task, and the answer.

Think about that.

The paradox of the question is in that it is limiting from the onset. I understand that the question itself is a paradox of sorts. However, it is still grounded in man's perception.

I was attempting to answer, by showing you that a true omnipotent doesn't adhere these concepts or rules, so the paradox doesn't apply to it. If the omnipotent steps into the confines OF the rules, then it is already limited, and we're not speaking of the omnipotent being at all, but the one we've applied our rules to..

"Can God create something he cannot lift?"

If God had strength, he already limited himself to something human perception can percieve and understand.

Originally posted by xjustice69x
lol mabey you should start a thredd called "ask juntai"
and you can let all of us know weather or not our opinoins are valid and up to your standards.
why even debate any more ? no need for discution just ask juntai I don't see how this applies.

Originally posted by Juntai
"Can God create something he cannot lift?"

If God had strength, he already limited himself to something human perception can percieve and understand. If a being were truly omnipotent, they would have no limits.

Even where strength is concerned.


With omnipotence, this being should logically be able to will themselves to have an infinite amount of anything.



And on a side-note, I wasn't referring to the Monotheistic God per say.

But rather any omnipotent being in general, (comics included).

Originally posted by Galan007
If a being were truly omnipotent, they would have no limits.

Even where strength is concerned.


With omnipotence, this being should logically be able to will themselves to have an infinite amount of anything.



And on a side-note, I wasn't referring to the Monotheistic God per say.

But rather any omnipotent being in general, (comics included). Well most omnipotents in comics do adhere to the perceptions of the writers and artists, readers and even the other characters in the story... and many of them can probably be beat up by Superman.

Originally posted by Juntai
Well most omnipotents in comics do adhere to the perceptions of the writers and artists, readers and even the other characters in the story... and many of them can probably be beat up by Superman.


Superman > Omnipotent...... Duh!

How can i be wrong?

If Marvel made a comic with LT going against TOAA's Will.would LT be depowered in one panel and the comic ends?maybe he does get depowered and goes and gets an item or powersource and tries to interfere with TOAA will

The premise is that canon or not the companies can do anything they want,we have seen pis,cis,and down right stupid things, but i am talking about Marvel vs DC i am not saying its right to do,but can it be done?

Your spectre analogy is absolutley wrong, if the writers do it,you can say its pis or cis,but they can do it if they want to,unless your really the editor for Spectre and make the final call when a writer submits his story

I like you juntai and respect your views,but this seems like closed minded thinking

Pre-retcon Amalgam Brothers = Manifastation of the Marvel- and DC continuity, staff.
The writers and editors have complete power over the comics, in other words all power or omnipotence.
So, yes, I belive they were omnipotent.

Originally posted by Galan007
In the comic world, I might be able to see some stupid shit like that being published, especially by Marvel.... (they seem to be more into the whole "greater levels of infinity" BS).

But using real logic, nothing can be greater than infinity,

I wouldn't condemn it that fast, brother G.


The idea of Two sets of Infinity they use comes straight from Science,


Now Scientifically levels of Infinity are based on distance,

so I'm not sure if Power applies.



The basic meaning for the term Infinite is:

"limitless or endless in space, extent, or size"

If any of you look up the word Infinite or Infinity,

you will realize it focuses on Space or Numbers, and nothing else.


THE Infinite is referred to as GOD.

Originally posted by Ethereal
Groups of infinity, like this:

1,2,4 1,2,4 1,2,4 1,2,4 ...

and larger sets, like say: 9,8,1,5,0 9,8,1,5,0 9,8,1,5,0 9,8,1,5,0 ...

Kubik (Cosmic Cube) on Infinity:


This makes perfect sense.

Kosmos says,

"Infinity by it's very nature is unsurpassable."


Kubik replies,

"Consider then the Set called Whole Numbers - 1, 2, 3, 4 and so on, is it not Infinite?"


Kosmos answers,

"Obviously."


Kubik retorts,

"Then consider the Set called Even Numbers - 2, 4, 6, 8 and so on, how long is it?


Kosmos responds,

"Why Infinite of course."


Kubik with wisdom,

"Half of Infinity is still Infinity, and the same would be true of the Set of Odd Numbers?


Kosmos answers,

"Of course."

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/8929/infipo9.th.jpg




Kubik explains,

"Both Sets are Infinite, and yet the Set of Whole Numbers contains BOTH Subsets,

and is therefore TWICE as Large as either Subset Alone"

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/958/infi2lt7.th.jpg




Kubik finishes,

"Thus are demonstrated TWO LEVELS of Infinity,

there are of course, an INFINITE number MORE"
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/1130/infi3rl5.th.jpg





As does this:


Dr Strange on Infinity:

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/4600/infinitymoremx9.th.jpg
"the very Concept of Infinity is relative,

Numbers are Infinite, so are odd Numbers, yet by definition,

there are Twice as many Numbers as there are odd Numbers ...

One Infinity is included within a larger Infinity"


Originally posted by Ethereal
but what infinite groupings of numbers have to do with 'power', and where marvel got the idea of doing this in the first place is beyond me...

Marvel was giving us a Scientific Fact about the RANGE of Infinity,

not in terms of power, but vastness.


I suppose it can be applied to the grandeur of one's power.

I think what he meant Mr. M, is that in this world, our reality, it's just a theory. In comics however it's reality.

It's still just theories, since neither can be proven.
They're basicly saying, Infinity * 2 >> Infinity
Or X2 >> X, where X is inifnity,

Originally posted by Mr Master





That's not what they're saying T, it's a bit more complicated than that,

yet the answer is surprisingly simple.


The Cantor's theorem

is a scientifically accepted method of understanding the Concept of Trans-Infinite levels,

within Infinity.
No it's as simple as that.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5-infinity = infinity
2, 4, 6, 8, 10-2*infinity = 2 infinity

And fact is, it cannot be proven, since no one can truley grasp the concept of infinity, it's beyond numbers.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's not what they're saying T, it's a bit more complicated than that,

yet the answer is surprisingly simple.


The Cantor's theorem

is a scientifically accepted method of understanding the Concept of Trans-Infinite levels,

within Infinity. Infinity can start at higher and lower points, so you might refer to it as being greater in that way.


But one infinity cannot be greater or go on for longer, then another.

If this were true, then the smaller of the variables was never truly infinite to begin with.



Meaning, if you have 2 sets of truly infinite things, one WILL NOT go on longer then the other, otherwise the principle of infinity is defeated.

As my chemistry teacher said, is there more numbers inbetween 0-1 than from 0-infinity?

You see, funnily enough, I had a discussion with a work mate on this very subject today, as you do.

Originally posted by Mr Master
It's a Scientific Thoerem, not a theory or comic book restricted idea: Again,

Let's say Infinity (A) started at -500,000

And infinity (B) started at +500,000


Now assume both of these values could not only go on for the rest of infinity, but that they began moving forward at the same rate.


Infinity (B) will perpetually be the larger number, because it started out with a greater value.

But this still doesn't change the fact that if they are both truly infinite variables, one of them could never "outstretch" the other.

Or, as I said before, the smaller of the two was never truly infinite to begin with.



Infinity = Infinity.

Back to topic, shall we?
What can be more powerful than avatars of the two most powerful comic companies in the world.
The writer/editor are omnipotent to the characters on the paper, so is the brothers, no?

A scientific theory is completely different from a hypothesis

Originally posted by Mr Master
I think I'll stick to Cantor's Scientific Theorem on the matter.

But you can't expect me to accept your speculative idea on the matter, using simplistic equations to define something that practically gave rise to Calculus. Theorems = 100% fact now?


I was using "simplistic equations" to make things easily understandable for everyone.

No need to overcomplicate something like this.



If you would have responded to my whole post, you may have realized that I already stated one infinity can start at a higher point than another infinity, thus making it perpetually the larger variable.


But one infinity does not go on for longer then another,

Or again, the smaller of the two was never truly infinite to begin with.

Theorems don't equate to indisputable proof.

Don't you understand that?



Theorem:

1 : a formula, proposition, or statement in mathematics or logic deduced or to be deduced from other formulas or propositions

2 : an idea accepted or proposed as a demonstrable truth often as a part of a general theory



You see?

Though it may be accepted by some as truth, a Theorem is not infallible by far.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Back to topic, shall we?
What can be more powerful than avatars of the two most powerful comic companies in the world.
The writer/editor are omnipotent to the characters on the paper, so is the brothers, no?

well back on topic cool

If TOAA and The presence are the writers and editors,we could look at the Brothers as the CEO's that run the company the presidents of the orginizations and such

WHo else could destroy one whole company,not the writers or the editors
if we follow the premise that one of the companies would have been destroyed

Just some thoughts on the topic

HAHA this is just to funny-Essentially proves it and then goes into what i posted,man is this a wate of time even for you


The Brothers in the Marvel Retcon,will we see them again?

Originally posted by starlock
how do i find it? is their a link on that site that your link sent me to?
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/I/infinity.html

EDIT Ah it does not highlight his name when refering to it, i humbley appologize

It's cool,

I just wanna make sure you saw it for yourself.

Back to topic, so the Amgalgam Brothers where supreme, now are they omnipotent?

Originally posted by starlock
HAHA this is just to funny-Essentially proves it and then goes into what i posted,

dontgetit


Essentially:

"used to emphasize the basic, fundamental, or intrinsic nature of a person, thing, or situation"



That sure is a big "ha ha" without merit.

Originally posted by starlock
man is this a wate of time even for you

Ok now you lost me, I thought you were being cool and now this: shrug


Originally posted by starlock
The Brothers in the Marvel Retcon, will we see them again?

The Brother that represented Marvel in the DC vs Marvel arc does not exist,

I don't know and could careless about DC's Brother.


That Marvel Brother along with another Brother,

that just happens to look exactly like the DC Brother,

are now a Megaverse each, IN Marvel,

and will probably never be seen again.


I laugh cause some won't accept they've both been retconned:

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/1395/hand1fd9.th.jpghttp://img258.imageshack.us/img258/8113/ltrules2lu3lb1.th.jpg

Same Look ...

Same Name ...

Same Battle pose ...


but they're not the same. shifty

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Back to topic, so the Amgalgam Brothers where supreme, now are they omnipotent?

Had they been Supreme,

LT and Spectre would not have restructured them completely.


Had they been Supreme,

LT & Spectre would not have been able to Obiterate them by Merging them.



The Brothers were wrenches thrown into the DC and Marvel continuity,

and it was always Non-Canon.

So perhaps they were Supreme of this other Reality where DC & Marvel collide,

but not that Supreme cause LT and Spectre affected them significantly.



In Marvel, the real Marvel Canon Reality that is, TOAA/GOD is untouchable,

and TOAA/GOD is the real Supreme being of Marvel.