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Battle takes place on Russan. Laa is the referee.

I say NJO Luke takes this

Would be a very tough match. With a blade, Luke would pull it off with some difficulty. With the force, Luke should be able to handle both of them without much difficulty.

Sith duo take this imho. Close though.

Hmm in a saber match, Luke will end both characters with some difficulty, as he is above both of them. In the force it won't be that close.

Put it this way, the Orbalisk Armour and the Vonduun Crab Armour would make things extremely difficult in a pure saber battle. I'd actually argue that Bane alone could take Luke, in a sheer lightsaber battle.

I'd actually argue that Bane alone could take Luke, in a sheer lightsaber battle.

And I and pretty much this entire board would argue against you.

I'd like to see you try.

Really Nebs? I think by now we already know what the outcome would be.

Oh indeed my friend! Indeed! However, if you're feeling brave, create the thread, but you will lose, I can guarantee it.

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
Oh indeed my friend! Indeed! However, if you're feeling brave, create the thread, but you will lose, I can guarantee it.


Why waste the time when we BOTH know that won't happen. And quite frankly I don't care that much about either character for me to do a boring ass run around "debate" with you.

Good for you, it's not like I even need to make a case anyway.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/439525_1-lotf-luke-skywalker-vs-bane-orbalisk

BTW, nice job contradicting yourself.

Argue should be substituted with disagree.

Not that it matters anyways even if I did humor you, you'd post your "Bane = 1337" list that has been constant;y disproved to be nothing more then you nutting over feats and then what. Oh yeah, you stop posting and the topic dies. Really after a while it gets old.

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
I'd like to see you try.

See us try? We've all as a team, defeated any piss poor argument you've ever thrown out? Bane wouldn't last 10 seconds with Luke in a saber match, much less in a force battle. Stop lying to yourself, it's embarassing for you.

But you're right you don't need to make a case. You haven't typed anything resembling a logical argument during your tenure here, so please post more links of your nonsense because according to you and your ongoing denial, anytime you type, its constituted as an argument. Dumbass

This could go either way, it really depends on a lot of things:
- if emerald lightning can penetrate Bane and Krayt's armor then Luke wins instantly
- If it can't but Luke can aim for the heads and they can't dodge it (not sure how fast emerald lightning travels) then he wins instantly.
- If Luke's Djem So can penetrate their armor then he wins after a short to medium length fight.

Note: I'm assuming that this is Bane and Krayt in their primes.

- If Luke can't penetrate eitehr of their armors or get them with emerald lightning then they could win, for then all they have to do is make sure that his lightsaber doesn't get to their heads, and he can't hurt them.



So it all depends on if Luke can penetrate their armor with his saber or the Force or not.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Battle takes place on Russan. Laa is the referee.


Krayt is my man , but so is NJO Luke. Luke can take this.

I think NJO Luke, but i don't know how good is Krayt, how good is he.

Luke too.

What do you mean, Luke too.

I "ALSO" think Luke would win

Oh, OK.

Be smart

I have no clue how strong Krayt is. I have never even seen a copy of the Legacy comics in person. So I will not argue anything about how strong Krayt is at this time. However, I don't see Luke taking this. Yes, he is definately stronger than Bane. This is not to say, however, that he would just defeat Bane with ease in lightsaber combat or with the Force. I'd imagine that Bane alone could give Luke a relatively hard time. Even if I don't know how strong Krayt is I imagine that he is of considerable power to be the DLOTS of so many, especially post-NJO Force Users. If he is about as strong as Bane, then they take it. Luke's great, but no one Force User is strong enough to deal with two people at the same time as strong as Bane.

I beg to differ Glentract. While Bane has some pretty impressive power, I wouldn't dare put him in the same league as Luke, Sidious, Revan, or Kun. And his saber skills would get him wtfpwned by Luke. Krayt is probably very powerful, but that's me talking because I think all mysterious characters are powerful. However, I don't see them taking Luke in either the force or saber combat. Luke is too fast and too good.

i'm sure luke will win because in TUF he was described as 20 blades moving at the same time. he was killing vong warrior after vong warrior and kills like 4 slayers.

so the orbalisk armor and crab armor may be resistant to lightsabers but that really doesn't stop luke.

Luke would indeed kill Bane without many problems. Krayt is a nonissue.

I personally think Luke would lose. He's up against 2 extremely powerful sith lords, both of whom would likely give Luke a hardish time. Luke's not strong enough to pull this off, I actually no longer consider him quite in the top tier (Zonama Sekot, Nihilus and Sion), and generally agree with Glentract.

Please stop talking, Nebaris.

Luke is much stronger than either Nihilus or Sion. You're an idiot, and always have been.

Yeah, Luke would win.

No he's not, you just can't accept that your main man isn't the best. Nihilus can near instantaneously drain an entire force sensitive race at will, with no preparation and no power enhancements, while holding his entire ship together with the force, and tear entire fleets out of mass gravity wells with telekinesis. Add in the fact that he can't be directly affected by force attack, or be sensed, and Luke's pretty much screwed.

Sion can't be killed, which automatically puts him above anybody he can't actually kill himself (which consists of a whole 1 person - Sekot).

Zonama Sekot is a force sensitive planet, enough said. I doubt even Nihilus can take The Planet.

Blah, blah, blah. This means nothing.

Nihilus has taken a PLANET. And Sion can be killed. Just hack him to pieces. He ceases to be a threat. And continuously reviving takes a lot out of them. Oh, and Nihilus can be sensed, you lying moron. And Luke can loop, remember? Plus, he's stronger, faster and better.

You're a ****ing idiot. Go away

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
No he's not, you just can't accept that your main man isn't the best. Nihilus can near instantaneously drain an entire force sensitive race at will, with no preparation and no power enhancements, while holding his entire ship together with the force, and tear entire fleets out of mass gravity wells with telekinesis. Add in the fact that he can't be directly affected by force attack, or be sensed, and Luke's pretty much screwed.
Except for the fact that Luke IS the best and it's been proven countless times. Just because you can't debate for shit and you love to constantly argue against facts, doesn't mean that Lightsnake is in denial. Furthermore, Luke can loop out of the force to combat Nihilus' drain and I don't recall Nihilus holding his ship up with the force and tearing entire fleets out of mass gravity wells. Stop making shit up jackass. Nihilus would get monkey stomped by Luke.


Except he was killed by a relative weakling, so it stands that anyone more powerful than the Exile can kill him. Try again Noobaris.


Nobody cares.

Would you get off this "Exile is teh suxors!" shit. You've yet to prove it and you seem to ignore anything proving the contrary, focusing on irrelevant arguments that are largely off topic( in my topic of course) now it wasn't just the Exile, she had Visas and Mandalor with her not mention Nihlius was severely weakened coming into the fight purposely to even the odds. Kreia lied to him and told him there were Jedi on Telos, thus he came into the fight starving and weak, then he further weakened himself when he tried to feed on the Exile.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Would you get off this "Exile is teh suxors!" shit. You've yet to prove it and you seem to ignore anything proving the contrary, focusing on irrelevant arguments that are largely off topic( in my topic of course) now it wasn't just the Exile, she had Visas and Mandalor with her not mention Nihlius was severely weakened coming into the fight purposely to even the odds. Kreia lied to him and told him there were Jedi on Telos, thus he came into the fight starving and weak, then he further weakened himself when he tried to feed on the Exile.

I don't have to prove she's powerful, you do because you claim she is. Stop bitching about it..

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I don't have to prove she's powerful, you do because you claim she is. Stop bitching about it..

I didn't say you have to prove she's powerful now did I? I said you have to prove your claim that she's a relative weakling. Asking for a proof on a claim you made with no support = bitching? And I already have proved she's powerful and certainly above "relative weakling" simply because you choose to ignore it for whatever reason doesn't make it any less true.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
I didn't say you have to prove she's powerful now did I? I said you have to prove your claim that she's a relative weakling. Asking for a proof on a claim you made with no support = bitching? And I already have proved she's powerful and certainly above "relative weakling" simply because you choose to ignore it for whatever reason doesn't make it any less true.

You have not proven that she was powerful. Beating Traya and having two other companions beat Nihilus does not make her powerful. Try again.

Again, if that was the only thing I said you'd have a point but guess what buddy...it isn't and...you don't. You've posted this exact same thing what twice now and I've provided an abundance of more "feats" then the two you named, not to mention I didn't even talk about Nihlius. Pay Attention.

Welcome to "Revenge of the Fanboys IV". I'm going to try to spread some words of wisdom:

1.) Sion is not a veritable powerhouse, Nebaris. If you're implying it, you might as well give up. The "KotoR-era characters owning all" syndrome is getting repetitive and old, and it's obviously unsupported. Luke would keep beating Sion's ass, effortlessly. Sion might win by virtue of his immortality, but that is it. Period.

a.) Sion can be killed. If memory serves me, he was in the game. Thus, he can be killed. He was easily manipulated by someone who isn't an extremely skilled manipulator. So, put him in a fight against Traya or Sidious? He's screwed. Especially Sidious, who is miles above him in all aspects - and he's the ultimate manipulator.

2.) The Exile's power issue is also ridiculous. Darth Sexy, you're not giving her enough credit. She is extremely skilled, and I'd say so. At the same time, Ac, the Exile is most definately not one of the "ubercharacters" - and someone on the level of NJO Luke would wipe his ass with her. In fact, I'd see any of the PT powerhouses taking her down without straining themselves.

3.) Please detail Sekot's examples of power. I am unfamiliar with him completely.

I've said this infact in almost exact wording, I've never stated her to be anything more then she is, an extremely skilled force user capable of adapting to almost any situation in a duel. Does this put her on the level of DN Luke? Hell no, or even Revan? Again hell no, but she is still very powerful in her own right in league and above people like Ulic Qel Droma.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
I've said this infact in almost exact wording, I've never stated her to be anything more then she is, an extremely skilled force user capable of adapting to almost any situation in a duel. Does this put her on the level of DN Luke? Hell no, or even Revan? Again hell no, but she is still very powerful in her own right in league and above people like Ulic Qel Droma.

leagues above Ulic Qel Droma? That would put her saber abilities above Kun since Kun and Qel Droma were equals.. Sorry, but her saber skills are nowhere near Ulic's, and force powers are debateable.

In league and above people "like" Ulic. It didn't necessarily mean Ulic himself, and Kun and Qel Droma were only equals for a very short period of time, Ulic is not head and heels above the Exile in that respect, and its debatable whether he's even better.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
In league and above people "like" Ulic. It didn't necessarily mean Ulic himself, and Kun and Qel Droma were only equals for a very short period of time, Ulic is not head and heels above the Exile in that respect, and its debatable whether he's even better.
It's not debateable in saber combat. Kun and Ulic were equals until Kun created his new style, and Ulic stalemated Sylvar without the force. Sorry but all evidence puts Ulic as being superior to the exile in saber combat. It doesn't help your case that there is nothing that calls the exile was a saber prodigy, or especially good with it.

So...since when was Kun at that time the be all end all of saber combat? Especially considering Kun hadn't reached his status as "most powerful being of the age" at that time yet. The narration said they performed like masters, thats nice, so does the Exile when she's able to mimic a style and contend with Jedi Masters who've spent their lives using that particular style after only a few minutes of demonstration.




No, the f*ck he didn't, he ran away and parried a blow or two, he mounted no offense. Sylvar even says this:

"Ulic, you'll have to do more then block my blows."



No, it actually doesn't.




So we need to be spoon feed information for it to be true, whats the definition of a prodigy in the Star Wars universe? Some one who learns things very quickly, what does the Exile do? She learns and becomes adept with: Ataru, Juyo, Niman, Shien, Jar Kari, and Soresu and in minutes. Thus the Exile = prodigy.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
So...since when was Kun at that time the be all end all of saber combat? Especially considering Kun hadn't reached his status as "most powerful being of the age" at that time yet. The narration said they performed like masters, thats nice, so does the Exile when she's able to mimic a style and contend with Jedi Masters who've spent their lives using that particular style after only a few minutes of demonstration.
Since he still wtfpwned his master as a padwan. It doesn't matter what you've heard because Kun and Ulic were both known saber prodigies while the Exile was not, and has nothing to show for her sable skills. Try again. I guess gameplay and facts elude you. But by your logic the exile learned all 7 forms of lightsaber combat within days.





I'm looking at the comic, you're wrong as usual.








Good god you really are an idiot. Those are gameplay mechanics and there is nothing canon about the exile learning 7 forms. You need to learn how to debate facts before you continue this crap.

Oh thats great just great, and who the f*ck was his master, Vodo, and since when was Vodo EVER known as anything special in lightsaber dueling? Oh, yeah thats right, never. The fact that he got the shit beat out of him by a padawan proves this.

It doesn't matter what you've heard because Kun and Ulic were both known saber prodigies while the Exile was not,

Translation: "I have to have sourcbook#5 to tell me something because I'm not keen enough to form an opinion on my own"




Would you stop this "try again" shit? Especially when you've made NO points, you've defeated NONE of mine. Also it reeks of some kind of "holier than thou" attitude which you have no right to claim since your, not that good. And yeah I'm sure her sable skills suck ass.



So am I but unlike you I actually back up my statements with proof:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=6&page=107
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=6&page=108
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=6&page=109

Oh guess what smart guy? In every panel his either blocking or in a flat out run. Oh and smart guy what does Sylvar say on the first page I posted?

"You have to do more then just block my blows Ulic."


So what does that make you? A dip shit who's wrong again




Nothing canon? Other then the masters like Kavar saying:

"Its remarkable how fast you learn."

or Vrook even though he out right stated he didn't like the Exile admitted that:

"Your form is a little sloppy but you've got it."

But no if it doesn't fit with "Darth Sexy's" view of Star Wars its not canon? Get real, kiddo.

When we have Nomi Sunrider who for the first time in her life touched a lightsaber wielded it like a master, its FAR from a farfetched idea that the Exile could do the same with styles.




I do? You've been wrong on almost every point, you can't pay attention to save your life, when I do post something not involving a gameplay element you ignore it, you keep putting words in my mouth (by keep claiming I'm talking about Nihlius) you seem to think your so "LEET" that you don't have to back up your bull shit claims with evidence. So no, its you who needs to learn.

But here as I proved I'm a master at getting your post's down to a T, Darth Sexy's response:

"Shut up, Francine lol, you an idiot! lol, and you can't debate! I just PWNED you lol"

Think up some new insults, your shits getting old, fast.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Oh thats great just great, and who the f*ck was his master, Vodo, and since when was Vodo EVER known as anything special in lightsaber dueling? Oh, yeah thats right, never. The fact that he got the shit beat out of him by a padawan proves this.
This coming from the guy who takes gameplay mechanics as canon.


No the translation would be "He is stating facts while I'm spewing out garbage such as the fact that the exile allegedly learned all 7 forms of combat within 1 month!!"




You have made absolutely no points to defeat, which is why I'm telling you to try again.




Oh wow and lets see if your simple mind can grasp this concept. What is he blocking with? What is he doing with Sylvar? That's right big boy you can say it, he's having a saber duel with her WITHOUT using the force. Him not getting wtfpwned and actually blocking all of her blows shows how good he is with the blade, so thanks for proving my point jackass.



Good one, try winning an argument for once.





Sorry, I don't take a moron who thinks the exile learned 7 forms within a month, as a canon source, seriously.


Except there's nothing to suggest the exile was a saber prodigy or even good with it, despite gameplay mechanics. That's like saying Revan was a saber god because he learned so quickly. Except for the fact that there is no canon evidence on the exile being good, although Revan was the best in the order of tens of thousands.





I'm going to give you a female name based on your stupidity, like I did with Noobaris. You have thrown out nothing but gameplay mechanics and your reasoning skills are as bad as they could possibly get, betty.


Yet another idiot like Noobaris, thinking that because you have the ability to type, you've proven a case or an argument.

LMAO, I love how you call him stupid whenever you're in a debate with him, yet constantly give him back rubs whenever you agree on something. BTW you post about this 'Nebaris' guy an awfully large number of times, do you like have the hots for him or something?

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Ad Hominem.
Do you even know what an Ad Hominem is? And assuming that you did(you clearly don't), it's a little too late for you to be throwing out logical fallacy definitions.




Facts such as there's no proof even with logical deduction, which includes your ridiculous gameplay mechanics.




So you acknowledge the fact that it was a stalemate but try to twist the definition to justify your point? Nice debating skill Betty. Now for the intelligent person(not you), a stalemate is where there is no clear victor, dead even, etc, aka exactly what happened. Please, continue humoring me.


And I rest my case.





Except I've defeated you in our other argument a few months ago, and I don't see anything change.




Leeland Chee? Explain what Leeland Chee had to do with KOTOR II.. Thanks





Except that due to gameplay mechanics, you have no idea how she beat the exile nor how she beat Traya. That's like saying Revan wtf pwned Malak on the starforged if you beat Malak in 30 seconds, which doesn't exactly count as canon.


Denial seems to be a strong characteristic among the poor debaters on here.



No dumbass, for the last time, gameplay mechanics aren't canon. I know this concept is impossible for you to grasp and I'm sure either Escape or Advent will back me up on this, but we don't know how the exile beat Traya or Sion. We don't know how easily or hard of a fight Revan and Malak had..











I would get some new material except for the fact that you're a piss poor debater which means your opinion means little to me and I will continue calling you by a girl's name until you learn how to debate.

Not really considering you and your "argument" fit the definition of it. But of course I forgot, none of the "rules" of debating apply to Darth Sexy. And again you still didn't respond to the point.




Except for I provided you with such and you continued your "I don't believes it crap!"




No, I acknowledged the fact that Ulic can block(which Vader did in ROTJ, Which Dooku did in ROTS, which Qui Gon did in TMP, which Vodo did in DLOTS, which any retard can do) you seem to have lost your ability to read.




Are you retarded? (a rhetorical question, of course you are) They were dead even now? I'm sorry, I guess there must be something wrong with my since I could swear that being pushed back to cliff, having to run away and mounting NO offense what so ever, seemed to imply that they were not even. But of course in "DarthSexy" land that is a dead even fight.




What case you'd have to actually have an argument for that to happen, Vader showed even while Luke has knocking him around that its not that hard to put your saber up and block, especially considering Ulic had AMPLE area to run.




Well "I don't see anything change " in your shitty arguments and you logic of "I insults teh most so i = teh winnar!"



I take a cut scene in a game which is canon according to LeeLand Chee

I didn't say the game now did I? Really slow down big guy, your confusing yourself.


Except that due to gameplay mechanics, you have no idea how she beat the exile nor how she beat Traya.

Except apply just a tiny bit of logical deduction(I know this is a foreign concept to you but hang in there) how the hell else would she combat three lightsabers not bound by the human hand attacking from everywhere, these same lightsabers being controlled by a force user who can kill masters in seconds, blow away ten Sith assassins with the flick of her hand and cloak her presence to masters while standing right in their face. I'll answer it for you since you seem to be totally devoid of any type of intelligence. With a lightsaber.




Not really, dip shit but nice try though.




Tell me about it.




Gameplay mechanics backed up with quotes from cutscenes however are canon.



And yet they haven't, get off this "smarter people then mes will helps me!!!" In fact Escape flat out disagrees with you:

"Darth Sexy, you're not giving her enough credit. She is extremely skilled, and I'd say so."

Wow who looks like a ass clown now? (Hint: Its you.)




With logical deduction we do, as for Sion other then the fact that he engages every one in a duel, he flat out says after you kill him a couple times:

"You can strike me down 100 times Exile and I will rise 100 more!"

Strike implies that they're using lightsabers, as for Traya see above.




Expect we do, from numerous sources that say that it was a: vicious, epic battle that left Revan severely wounded. And enough with the double periods..It makes you look dumber then you already do..




And who in the blue hell are you? The debating "skillz" you've shown thus far are worse then Nebaris's. Really, champ its bout time your insults and your grandmothers vag got some lube.

Wow betty, the concept of gameplay mechanics versus canon storyline really does elude you. Since you're making a fool out of yourself I'm going to let someone like Advent or Escape continue this, seeing as common sense seems to be above you.

And here I thought I was gonna finally get a actual logical argument out of you, silly me.





Translation: Well shit, you've made me look like a complete ass and an idiot, I think I'm gonna let people much smarter then me argue for me. Cause well...I suck.

Really sport, Escape already agrees with me, so looks like your down to hoping Advent will "pwnz!" me for you. and if I'm making such a fool out of myself, why can't you prove me wrong? Oh thats right because I've provided ample canon evidence (in the name of quotes from the masters in cut scenes) that backs up the gameplay mechanic.

Moreover with that the game gives an excuse for why the Exile can learn so quickly, its her mimicking and absorbing the knowledge through the force. If you engage in battle with the masters it explains it even better as the Exile can mimic their form to a T in mid duel.

Dude get it through your head, you blow. You've committed logical fallacies, misinterpreted my words, got entire panels in comics wrong, put words in my mouth, ignored canon fact, and although my grammar isn't perfect all the time: at least I can form a sentence that makes sense and NOT use double periods.

Nebaris does MUCH better then you, and although he does have ridicules points at times at least he can form his own opinion instead of hitching on smarter peoples, like you do to Advent, Escape and even me and if I'm such a idiot what does that make you?

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
And here I thought I was gonna finally get a actual logical argument out of you, silly me.






Good lord Betty, for me to have that translation would require you wtfpwning me in a debate, and not the other way around. Denial is a ***** huh?


Escape agrees with you? My my you've taken denial to a whole new level. Twisting escape's words around to try and prove your point is sad beyond belief.


Once again, its gameplay mechanics when the Exile learns 7 forms of lightsaber combat within a few days. It's not canon, it's gameplay. Learn it, understand it, embrace it. You're making a fool out of yourself.


As you continuously show, you have no concept of logical fallacies, nor the ability to form cogent arguments. Now please, I say this a lot, quit while you're behind.


I don't need to hitch on Advent or Escape, but they could shut you up better than myself because they have more tolerance for stupidity than myself. As for you, you're an inferior debater so I don't know why you're lying to yourself about being intelligent, like Noobaris. And calling him better than me makes me laugh, because you're not an authority on the skill of debaters, nor logical arguments, as you are showing yet again.

Sure thing tough guy. Why don't you go take a couple more shots of that absinthe with some of those anti depressants your so fond of mentioning. You need them.

Edit.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Sure thing tough guy. Why don't you go take a couple more shots of that absinthe with some of those anti depressants your so fond of mentioning. You need them.

Good god, you're using my own insults now? It's bad enough that you can't debate for shit but now you're pulling a Noobaris and being a parrot? Way to go Betty. Instead focus on your debating skills, it will greatly reduce the self humiliation.

No, retard. Had you had the attention skills higher then that of a 6 year old you'd realise that I hadn't twisted shit, and your just making excuses as to why you can't prove shit, and can't debate for shit.

What Escape said:

2.) The Exile's power issue is also ridiculous. Darth Sexy, you're not giving her enough credit. She is extremely skilled, and I'd say so. At the same time, Ac, the Exile is most definitely not one of the "ubercharacters" - and someone on the level of NJO Luke would wipe his ass with her. In fact, I'd see any of the PT powerhouses taking her down without straining themselves.

But as usual I'll have to spell it out for you: Escape said she's extremely skilled, and thats what I've been saying from the start. Regardless of the current argument, that was the overall point: The Exile is extremely skilled. You however are claiming that she's not and I quote "A relative weakling." Now you've got two people superior to yourself (Me and Escape) saying your wrong. Finally you've YET to provide proof of your stupid claim.




I truly am tired of explaining simple concepts to the dyslexic, I'll go slow because I know its hard for you to concentrate on big concepts, I'll capitalize alot big stuff might get your pathetic minds attention.

The Exile learns these forms in minutes withing seeing them, some call it a gameplay mechanic, which its not since the "CANON" story gives MULTIPLE excuses for why this happens. Such as, her very nature as wound in the force, her mass bonding abilities, and finally the masters even say it at the end on Dantooine.

Not only that (are you still with me idiot?) but we are given CUTSCENE evidence that SAYS that she learned these styles VERY quickly. I really don't see whats so hard for you to grasp about this, if I had only provided gameplay evidence you'd have a point, but I didn't and you as said before: you don't.

Now, who is acting like Nebaris, your arguing CANON FACT. And you look as dumb as he does when he does it. Its a CANON fact that she learned these forms quickly because its SAID in a CUTSCENE.

And come on dumbass, why are you wasting my time with this? You YOURSELF even say that "It's only canon if its in cutscenes." in regards to anything that has to do with Revan, cause your "fav" isn't the one in the argument you change your position? What a stupid b1tch.



A huh I don't do I:

As provided by Dr. Michael C. Labossiere

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.

This was what I said:

Oh thats great just great, and who the f*ck was his master, Vodo, and since when was Vodo EVER known as anything special in lightsaber dueling? Oh, yeah thats right, never. The fact that he got the shit beat out of him by a padawan proves this.

You cleverly responded with:

This coming from the guy who takes gameplay mechanics as canon.

"claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument."

You've also committed a Strawman:

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

Person A has position X.
Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
Person B attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

What I said:

I've provided ample canon evidence (in the name of quotes from the masters in cut scenes) that backs up the gameplay mechanic.

Moreover with that the game gives an excuse for why the Exile can learn so quickly, its her mimicking and absorbing the knowledge through the force. If you engage in battle with the masters it explains it even better as the Exile can mimic their form to a T in mid duel.


Nothing canon? Other then the masters like Kavar saying:

"Its remarkable how fast you learn."

or Vrook even though he out right stated he didn't like the Exile admitted that:

"Your form is a little sloppy but you've got it."

When we have Nomi Sunrider who for the first time in her life touched a lightsaber wielded it like a master, its FAR from a far fetched idea that the Exile could do the same with styles.

What you said:

Sorry, I don't take a moron who thinks the exile learned 7 forms within a month, as a canon source, seriously. Once again, its gameplay mechanics when the Exile learns 7 forms of lightsaber combat within a few days. It's not canon, it's gameplay.

"when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position."

Nice Job

And I could name others but my post is already long enough.




Ok tyke, your like the little kid on the play ground who just got his ass beat and runs to get mommy and daddy to fight teh big baddie bully.



Wow, a paragraph with no ridicules spelling mistakes AND it actually makes sense! How long did it take you to type that?

But seriously kid, I'm better then you, half this forum is better then you. You "win" your debates by simple dishing out lame ass insults till the opponent gets tired of you. OR you make a few weak ass points and wait for Advent to come in and save your ass. You suck.

BTW: Basic writing tip #1: PROOF READ.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
What Escape said:

2.) The Exile's power issue is also ridiculous. Darth Sexy, you're not giving her enough credit. She is extremely skilled, and I'd say so. At the same time, Ac, the Exile is most definitely not one of the "ubercharacters" - and someone on the level of NJO Luke would wipe his ass with her. In fact, I'd see any of the PT powerhouses taking her down without straining themselves.
The funny thing is, during your stupid rant you fail to realize that you were making her out to be very powerful, aka giving her too much credit while I didn't give her enough. Learn to read your own arguments..


I still call her average while you claimed that she could somehow beat Ulic in saber combat due to her gameplay mechanics, which Escape never bothered to get into. Notice, if you COULD read, my initial argument was that I couldn't discuss the force battle because Ulic is more of an unknown than her. So much for YOUR reading comprehension.



Gosh parrot, stop repeating me. You sound like a blubbering vagina when you repeat me word for word.


No, the canon storyline doesn't say anything you buffoon. That's like saying "Oh she knows force storm and force crush because she had the abilities in the game". You sound like a complete tool when you argue based on your own stupidity.


I am NOT arguing canon fact seeing as how it is NOT a canon fact that the exile learned 7 forms of combat quickly. You're now comparing her to Yoda and the saber powerhouses, which is ridiculous and makes you look dumber than you already look.


When did I say its only canon if its in a cutscene? Are you a complete moron?

I erased your pseudointellectual bullshit because it's clear to the average human being that you took a great deal of time to read and understand logical fallacies, and then apply them to this argument, seeing as how your argued was already defeated. But in a logical debate, the last resort next to conceding a debate is to point out flaws in grammar, spelling, or what you're doing. Congratulations.



What's his name in KOTOR also said the ground shook when Exar Kun walked. Should we believe that as well?


Yet you're not proving any case for her being even as good as Ulic in saber combat..Nothing..

Follows up with more pseudointellectual shit you clearly spent a huge amount of time on.





This would only work if you defeated me in a debate, which you haven't now, nor the last time we debated. As I recall, someone had to enter for you because you were getting humiliated and stopped posting in that thread.




Not half as long as it took for you to learn several logical fallacy definitions to increase your pseudointellect.


Awww how cute, the Noobaris denial from a piss poor debater. And making shit up with Advent.. That's adorable pumpkin. You done embarassing yourself? Go back to the drawing board, you're a joke.

This is fun.



What a dumb f*ck you are...


I've said this in fact in almost exact wording, I've never stated her to be anything more then she is, an extremely skilled force user capable of adapting to almost any situation in a duel. Does this put her on the level of DN Luke? Hell no, or even Revan? Again hell no, but she is still very powerful in her own right in league and above people like Ulic Qel Droma.

I made it a point to not put her on the level of the powerhouses in Star Wars, but oh I forgot, reading isn't your strong suit.




Strawman, again. Your really racking up the fallacies.




And...does that change the fact that he thinks she's extremely skilled? No.




Did I bring this up? No. But does that change the fact that you, and I quote said she's a relative weakling? No. And what does this have to do with the present discussion? Nothing.




"blubbering vagina" wow that was lame, you know what forget getting new material, stick to the old stuff. Your not that creative.




Except it does. Nice job arguing with canon fact.



Strawman. No, a more accurate description of my argument would be if she used force crush or force storm in a cutscene, then it would be canon. But I know such "high" thinking is FAR above you.

Moreover, the burden of proof is on you to prove it wrong, I've provided a NUMBER of quotes you provided "Darth Sexy's opinion." which, and I think I speak for the entire forum, no gives two shits on a stick about.



You sound like a complete tool when you argue based on your own stupidity.




Except it is, it was said in cutscenes by THREE people at separate times. Its canon fact genius.




Hasty Generalization. I NEVER said she was on Yoda's level, in fact I NEVER said she mastered the forms in fact I've gone on record as to saying:

"No, she learned them, it never says she mastered them, the most I'd rank her is adept at the 6 forms."



Now your copying me.



So gameplay evidence IS allowed in debate.




Sure my argued was totally pwned by you You haven't defeated shit, you've committed fallacy after fallacy and you claim to be a "logical" debater? Oxymoron, dipshit.




Not really, as I've been doing it the entire argument since the start, you're horrid grammar is just that noticeable, since I normally don't care.



Irrelevant Misdirection, and OBVIOUS hyperbole, we have OTHER canon sources saying thats BS, with the Exile we have THREE separate masters at THREE separate times commenting on the Exiles REMARKABLE ability to learn forms withing moments of seeing them. Its canon.




I've taken into account I'm dealing with mentally challenged here so I wouldn't expect you to..get..it..



Not really, I don't have to actually try that hard to beat you, its rather easy. I have to put more thought into pwning Nebaris than I do you.




No, lil buddy, I stopped posting because I tried to be civil and NOT insult you while you insisted on putting in random insults, this time however, thats not the case. I thought you were one of the "smart guys" on this forum, but thats obviously not the case. I love how in almost every debate your in you claim to "pwnz!" everyone, yet no one agrees with you. Go figure.




That made you look like a complete ass clown who has NO clue what he's talking about.




You are beyond lame, as you've said: Denial does indeed run rampant on this forum. Your a damn fraud, who claims to be the apex of logical debating and in a position to judge others, and yet you don't know how to logically debate, you have atrocious grammar, you commit logical fallacy after logical fallacy, and you can't read. You flat out suck.

LMAO, this debate's had me rofl, continue guys.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx

Notice how I deleted everything for the sake of saving you from further embarassment. Usually I would find your posts and stupidity funny but it's just getting sad for you. But please, continue making a fool out of yourself instaed of conceding an argument.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Notice how I deleted everything for the sake of saving you from further embarassment. Usually I would find your posts and stupidity funny but it's just getting sad for you. But please, continue making a fool out of yourself instaed of conceding an argument.


*Yawn*

You don't want to get owned again, its ok. Why the hell would I concede to you, you are by far one of the worst debaters on this forum. You've committed fallacy after fallacy, you haven't proved a thing, I've more then proved my point, one of your "heroes" Escape disagrees with you. And yet you still put up this little act of false bravado LOL.

I recommend you visit this site:

www.hop.com/

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
*Yawn*

You don't want to get owned again, its ok. Why the hell would I concede to you, you are by far one of the worst debaters on this forum. You've committed fallacy after fallacy, you haven't proved a thing, I've more then proved my point, one of your "heroes" Escape disagrees with you. And yet you still put up this little act of false bravado LOL.

I recommend you visit this site:

www.hop.com/

When was I owned the first time? I believe you're 0-2 against me. And according to the best debaters(escape, Advent), I'm pretty damn good so that leaves you back at square one, being a joke.. Stop lying to yourself and stop embarassing yourself..
Btw, if you really were yawning, you wouldn't waste everyone's time and bandwidth with your incessant stupidity.

Sure buddy..your one of the best here..your so awesome..even though..you can't debate for shit..and just got your ass handed to you..on a silver platter..

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Sure buddy..your one of the best here..your so awesome..even though..you can't debate for shit..and just got your ass handed to you..on a silver platter..

How cute, more denial after getting pwned. Now I suspect you're going to repeat everything I've said back to me. It must suck being a piss poor debater always lying to yourself huh Betty?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
How cute, more denial after getting pwned. Now I suspect you're going to repeat everything I've said back to me. It must suck being a piss poor debater always lying to yourself huh Betty?

Not really, cause anyone with a brain (not you) can see I just took a shit on you and your "argument" I'm done, I've more then proved my point whether you accept it or not, I don't care.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Not really, cause anyone with a brain (not you) can see I just took a shit on you and your "argument" I'm done, I've more then proved my point whether you accept it or not, I don't care.


Of course you're done, you were done pages ago. Now if you're done accept being a moron and stop posting, it's pretty sad now. Apparently anyone with a brain doesn't include you because if you had any common sense, you would have stopped posting yesterday.

Excuse me, Gentlemen but I have to intervent in your so called debate.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
So we need to be spoon feed information for it to be true, whats the definition of a prodigy in the Star Wars universe? Some one who learns things very quickly, what does the Exile do? She learns and becomes adept with: Ataru, Juyo, Niman, Shien, Jar Kari, and Soresu and in minutes. Thus the Exile = prodigy.

You, sir, are an idiot. Plain and simple.

You are referring to something that is determined via gameplay. In case you didn't notice it: If you do play the game as Counselar, you won't learn all lightsaber styles but instead receive training in the so called "force forms".

But even estimating you did choose the option that allows you to learn all seven forms: How good do you think somebody can learn a style within some minutes of training (or for the sake of an argument in a single practice session) ?

Using one little bit of common sense or logical reasoning should actually tell you that this option just exists for the sake of gameplay experience. Same with dual wielding lightsabers (aka Jar'Kai) or the Stealth Mode. That are game features.

For a debate you have to apply at least some common sense. The Exile might have learned form I (basical training) and I would suggest knowledge of another form (possibly Makashi) or even two (adding Soresu against blaster wielding opponents). That's exactly as far as it goes for a Jedi Counselar. But everything beyond that is pretty much a stupid suggestion.

Even outright prodegies in the lightsaber fighting department (be it Luke Skywalker or Nomi Sunrider for the sake of that debate) weren't able to instantly master forms. Mace Windu took years to develop and master his Vaapad and he was one of the most gifted persons in the lightsaber department. People like Kas'im did dedicate their entire lives to master all forms. Somebody like Kenobi (who's an above average lightsaber duellist) did need more than a decade to master a single form.

Yet you really want to suggest that the Exile should have been able to learn or even master something as complex as lightsaber forms in a time span of minutes ? You did notice that every single form comes with a complete philosophy, different stances and movement patterns aside from a certain state of mind ? If anything, the Exile might have learned to apply one or two moves from a single technique and implement that in her lightsaber style, like Quinlan Vos did with Vaapad after seeing it in action. But more is hardly possible.

And even IF we waste our time by estimating that this rather stupid assertion is actually correct. What would that proof ? As Bane is the topic of this thread: With mastery of a single form (Djem So) he was able to pratically defeat Kas'im in lightsaber combat who learned all seven. Obviously knowing all forms of lightsaber combat doesn't mean much, eh ?


Back to the topic: Luke tools Bane and Krayt. Badly.

Ahahaha...Too funny.. Logic, meet AC...

Nai, I swear down you used the whole 'Exile mastered multiple forms' argument against me one time. Oh and BTW, Nomi Sunrider wielded her saber like a Master the very first time she picked one up, which is as good as instantly mastering forms, so it's not impossible for the Exile to have done the same. BTW, I'd love to see how you formed that conclusion, considering Bane himself is a match for Luke, as is Krayt.

Excuse me, but your arguments for Krayt don't hold up at all. Argue Bane if you want, but trying to prove that Krayt is a "match" for Luke is only going to elicit a bunch of laughs from the rest of us, and I'm not saying this to insult you or be rude, but the bias has a limit where it goes from "barely tolerable" to "stupid" and you're toeing the line.

Right, because I'm totally biased towards Krayt.

The fact is, when you have people like Lumiya being made a match for Luke (granted under extremely advantageous circumstances), it's not that hard to believe that someone with centuries worth of experience, training and learning under the ways of the force, saber resistant armour, and the ability to tool 6 powerful force users with a saber couldn't possibly give Luke a hard time.

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
Nai, I swear down you used the whole 'Exile mastered multiple forms' argument against me one time.


Since you happen to be a stupid liar, let my comment on this be "No. Idiot."



In short: No.
Nomi Sunrider, in case you didn't notice, was married to a Jedi Knight. She could have watched him training / fighting and remembered a lot of his movements. Then she picked up the weapon and essentially used her memory. Yet, she still didn't have an exact idea what to do with the weapon, and indeed she refrains from using it again for a pretty damn long time.
Still every (and yes, I mean every) trained lightsaber duellist would have tooled her because mastery of a style, like Mace Windu descripes his Vaapad in the ROTS novel, basically means that a Jedi can leave the fighting to his body without having to think about it any longer. And that was clearly NOT the case with Nomi when she picked up her weapon.



a) Luke can make himself completely invisible and unsenseable via the force while remaining able to do what he want.

b) He can create loops in the force (as he did to turn an entire planet invisible) meaning he can directly manipulate the force to do something he wants. Means he does actualy have direct access to an infinite amount of force energy which is enough to tear every opponent apart.

c) In lightsaber combat he slaughtered through entire armies of enemies, during the NJO series even some that were equipped with lightsaber resistant armour and weaponary. Without having many problems.

I'd really like to see how you reached the conclusion that either Bane or Krayt are a match for Luke. In force combat point "b" is pretty much enough to destroy them. In lightsaber combat I'd really like to see how Krayt and Bane are going to stop somebody who can apparently utilize his offhand as well as all other NJO members can fight with their main-hand, move with speed that makes him appear like a nice blur to other Jedi (namely Jacen and Jaina in TUF) and is obviously able of cutting down opponents wearing lightsaber resistant armor with a single strike.

Now you typed that novel and didn't realize I was:

A. Being sarcastic.

I've already said, in this very topic that:

B. "No, she learned them, it never says she mastered them, the most I'd rank her is adept at the 6 forms."

C. The text in KOTOR the comic says Nomi wield her saber like a master. And makes no mention of the extra training you claim she needed, in the lightsaber category.

D. My point was the Exile's rate of learning regardless of what you choose was remarkable, and no matter what archetype you play as you still get the same quotes from the masters noting your extremely impressive learning rate. Meaning she still learns and becomes adept with these forms mid duel, and if she were to face Ulic she'd do the same thing to him.

As thats what allowed her to beat Kavar, if you choose that path(yes you can kill the masters and STILL get the canon LS ending) she uses Juyo mid duel and beats a master of it.

Finally...

E. Nomi wields it like a master when she first touches a saber, I fail to see how its sooo unfathomable for the Exile to do the same.

If your going to interrupt in a debate at least know what the hell your talking about.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
B. "No, she learned them, it never says she mastered them, the most I'd rank her is adept at the 6 forms."
Since your argument was defeated, I'll continue from where Nai left off. Being adept at 6 forms means she mastered them to a degree which is hardly the case. Try again.


As Nai said, her husband was a Jedi knight. Not to mention what does it mean to wield your saber like a master? Does it mean she knows all 7 forms? What...


No, your point was based on retarded gameplay mechanics. I made the analogy of how your logic states that the Exile also learned force storm and force drain or whatever gameplay allowed.. She doesn't stand a chance against Ulic, quit lying to yourself.



I'm pretty sure Nai knows what he's talking about seeing as how he's probably the most knowledgable debater on these forums. Meanwhile you can't shut up with your ridiculous stupidity.

No, she learned them, it never says she mastered them, the most I'd rank her is adept at the 6 forms."

Nice job at reading though.



Who was so pathetic that he was killed by random thugs, now if he is a lightsaber master then wow just wow. In that case she's going by what she saw him doing ie: her memory. This guy is can perform like a master? LOL. Nice job at reading though.




And I..made an analogy how..if it was done or said in a cutscene..it'd be true..Nice job at reading though




Suck his dick all you like doesn't bother me one way or the other.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
No, she learned them, it never says she mastered them, the most I'd rank her is adept at the 6 forms."

Nice job at reading though.
Good thing, I'll rank her as knowing a few moves from some forms, good thing you're NOT an authority on interpretation.




What a moron, your ignorance is evident. You don't even know how he died. For all you know there were 500 thugs that killed him before he unleashed a thought bomb. My point is youre making ridiculous assumptions that are irrelevant.





And/





Yes, I defeated your argument aka I'm a poor debater. Someone else defeats your argument and I'm sucking their dicks. Your denial is amusing, so are your sad debating abilities.

Yes you did, it was when we were discussing Kas'im, and you brought up all these people who had mastered multiple forms, and if memory serves me correctly, those people were Yoda, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Tulak Hord and indeed The Exile (might respark your memory). But whatever, continue with these not so witty retorts as you please.



Despite the fact that he couldn't possibly have trained purely by himself, and the fact that whenever he carried out his Jedi missions for the Order, he went away and left Nomi and Vima behind. There's also the fact that Nomi was 100% against being a Jedi, so I doubt she would have put any effort into paying attention into Andur's training, it's much more likely that she would have actually put effort into not paying attention into such a thing, given how badly she was against becoming a Jedi. Really, what you're arguing is a huge unsupported assumption, there's nothing to suggest that she would have picked up anything from Andur while he had been a Knight. There's also the fact that the context in which it's stated in the comic is purely to put emphasis on how prodigious Nomi Sunrider was, so if she'd simply recalled stuff that her husband had been doing, it wouldn't quite have the same effect that the comic was trying to relay, don't you think? And really, let's pretend that this is the Nai Fohl Land, and Nomi Sunrider really had observed some of Andur's training sessions: do you really think she would have retained anything? Given that she wouldn't have had any clue what he was doing, and thus wouldn't be able to relate to the practise sessions, I doubt her observations would have been strong enough that she'd retain them in times of duress.



How is that not the case? Nomi Sunrider quite clearly was letting the force guide her movements. What don't you get about her wielding her saber like a true master the very first time she picked one up? You're twisting canon sources here, and it's making you look extremely silly, given how black and white it is in this case. She wielded her saber like a true master, not like someone who was very proficient with a saber, but like a true master, that's all there is to it, deal with it.



I want a source, page number, and quote (along with the passage that the quote appears in) for all of this, because you've been known to lie about things in the past (example - Mace fully creating Vaapad by the age of 13), and IIRC, his power capabilities within this state were unknown. And really, given how you downplay the fact that Darth Nihilus is naturally always in this state, I find it funny how you make such a big deal out of it when Luke's involved.



"I want a source, page number, and quote (along with the passage that the quote appears in) for all of this, because you've been known to lie about things in the past (example - Mace fully creating Vaapad by the age of 13)."



Entire armies? If you're referring to TUF, doesn't he only slaughter one army? Without having many problems? By the time he was done, wasn't it actually noted how fatigued he was? If so, I'd say it's safe to say that he likely had to put a tad bit of effort into it.



The arguments have already been made, I can't be arsed to present them again, I was just wondering why you were of the opinion that Luke would beat them with such ease, when he struggled against Lady "I'm a cyborg, ergo I suck" Lumiya.

He didn't struggle against Lumiya. If you read the new LOTF book you'd know that.

He held back, big deal, doesn't change the fact that he didn't have the ability to properly defend himself.

What are you talking about? It changes everything? She claims Luke could have killed her with ease, any time he wanted to.

That's great, but the way Nai's talking about him, he should have had no problem simply just holding back and defending himself.

That's great but the fact stands that Luke would have no problem with Lumiya, and although he might have some problems with Bane and Krayt, he should win without much difficulty.

Thats nice, you seem to think I care.





Um what the hell are you talking about? Here's how he dies

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Gorm-worm.JPG

He takes about 4 thugs.

Nice Job though.




And your a retard.




He finally admits it.

I'm done with you, your on the Ignored list so respond if you want. I'm gonna wait for a response from the real debaters, like Nai.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Thats nice, you seem to think I care.
That's nice, if you don't care you sure as hell take the time to post and get owned.



Do you know the skill or power of those thugs? And thanks for the irrelevant misdirection.





You're, dumbass.





That's nice, I pwned you, Nai did as well. Stop crying, *****
http://www.sesa.org/ceehi/pics/crying-baby.gif

Oh, and against Lumiya, didn't Exile make it clear Luke is fully capable of killing Lumiya-who he never stopped caring about- whenever he wanted to?

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
Yes you did, it was when we were discussing Kas'im, and you brought up all these people who had mastered multiple forms, and if memory serves me correctly, those people were Yoda, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Tulak Hord and indeed The Exile (might respark your memory). But whatever, continue with these not so witty retorts as you please.

I surely never did site Tulak Hord or the Exile as people who learned multiple forms. Because I, unlike you, don't discuss unknowns.



I was merely remarking upon the fact that there is a difference between a trained warrior and and somebody who wields a weapon for the first time. No matter how much of a prodigy Nomi Sunrider was. A fully trained master of the weapon would still take her out. Even talent, even as great as Nomi's, does have it's limitations.

We can keep arguing that back and forth. But in no way can somebody simply pick up a weapon and, without prior knowledge, handle it exactly like a master who trained combat with that certain weapon over years and decades. It's simply not possible. Yet Nomi's feat in lightsaber combat are rather limited - or did you see her outduel anybody ? The "lightsaber ownage" in the TOTJ comics is clearly left to Kun and Ulic.



With the expanded knowledge about the lightsaber forms that we do pocess today, a decade after the TOTJ comics were written - do you really consider it possible that somebody picks up a lightsaber and wields it like a "true master" ? You have to take into consideration that at the point in time were that line was written, there were no lightsaber forms. Lightsaber combat was pretty much some variation of Katana swordfighting

I don't want to argue that Nomi Sunrider wasn't impressive or talented when it came to lightsaber combat. The point is that she would miss the results of years / decade long training that other lightsaber combatants do possess. The same is naturally the case with the Exile. Watching some movements or knowing which end of the lightsaber you need to stab into the next enemy isn't the same thing as mastering lightsaber combat or a certain form.



Oh my. Where was the lie about Mace creating Vaapad when he was thirteen ? Do I really have to give you a lection in SW history again ? It's a known fact that Mace became a Jedi Master and Council Member at the age of 28, correct ? It's also a known fact that to receive this position somebody must have sucessfully trained another person to Jedi Knight status. We know that Mace did train Depa Billaba and taught her Vaapad in that days. Now use some logic. As the average training of somebody to Jedi Knight status takes at least 13 years (Anakin, Mace himself), at least with the guidelines of the PT Jedi Order, we can safely say that Mace must have started to train Depa when he was 13 or 14 years old. And as he, at the same time, was capable of teaching her Vaapad he must indeed have designed that style before. As you might have noticed he obviously start practicing that art immediatly after constructing his first own lightsaber (age 14) which again means, that he had to design that style before that point in time. Or do you have a source saying something different ?

And for Luke you have to check the Black Fleet trilogy (the last book). I don't have it at hand but it descripes point "a" and "b" of my previous argument pretty much. Luke is learning from the Falanassi. One of them, being a far lesser force user than Luke, simply makes herself invisible and completely unsenseable via the force in less than a second and then escapes from Luke's ship. Luke learned that technique. The "loop" thing is also descriped there. Luke simply closes his eyes for a few seconds and then renders a complete planet and a pretty huge spaceship invisible. Then he says that this will remain like that for an infinite amount of time while he doesn't have to focus on it any longer.



Given how I asked you to proof that Darth Nihilus is hard to sense in the force or even "invisible" or "unsenseable" two times and you utterly failed to do so, I will you tell you for the third time that this idea is just a construct of your imagination. Obviously all people in KotoR 2 are capable of sensing the Exiles nature through the force (Kreia, the Jedi Masters) meaning that they can sense the Exile which isn't different from Nihilus. And just to remind you: Wounds in the force are pretty apparent and well recognizeable. Leia stumbling across a phenomenon like that was simply knocked out by the feelings of loss and pain it was radiating. Means: You're trying to hand us bullshit you made up as fact.



Oh my.
-> in SotE he's hacking his way through a nice amount of Black Sun members and bounty hunters
-> in Trace of Bakura he takes it up with a an army of Ssi'ruuk
-> in the NJO he slaughters through the Vong HQ with apparent ease
-> in the DN trilogy he has to deal with a nice amount of Killiks

And back to the NJO scenary. He's descriped as a "maelstrom" of power who's movement only appear at blurs to Jacen and Jaina who did pretty much only watch their uncle doing most of the work himself while they have a pretty much hard time following him (not to mention the other troops who fall back rather far behind the three Jedi). Yet Luke is still able to take it up with Shimmra after that who is at least in one league with somebody like Kar Vastor (if not even more dangerous than him). Sure he's a little bit tired there but aside from the fact that we won't have had a real showdown, had he simply tooled Shimmra with his force powers, killing an army of being who can only hardly be affected with the force and do possess lightsaber resistant weapons and armour is pretty much a testament for Luke's skills. Especially if you consider how he took the slayers out (that were seven at once, correct ?) when other Jedi (like Kyp Durron) obviously had problems taking out one of them.

Yet what did Krayt and Bane do that comes even remotely close to such an action, hmm ? The mere fact that Luke did defeat DE Sidious in a lightsaber duel, who was more powerful than ROTS Sidious who - at this time - was already more powerful than Bane is actually enough to show you, who is the better force user here. DE Luke would be able to defeat Bane most likely. His NJO version would destroy Bane on the spot.



Yeah. Your famous Bane fanboy arguments have also been destroyed multiple time here as well as over at the EOD. I wonder why you still want to stick with them. And wow...he held back against Lumiya as you should pretty well know. Simply look how he actually defeated Raynar who was attacking him with the combined force powers of millions of beings (in that case 275 worlds filled with Killiks and joiners). Luke simply shrugged a force attack powered up with this off like it was nothing. I wonder what Bane or Krayt should come up with to actually overpower him.

In this situation, yes, you are.



You nailed it on the head: under extremely advantageous circumstances. Luke expressed restraint throughout the entire debacle. We learn from the latest book in the series (Exile) that he had no desire to kill her. We knew during the duel that Lumiya maneuvered herself in between the pedestrians, forcing Luke to restrain himself. To top it off - they attacked him as well! Yet, instead of hacking away, he disabled them. She was attacking him with full effort, and only wounded him when Mara was distracted.

And this is the self-proclaimed Sith Lady capable of summoning Force Phantoms that are "a fair match" for Luke himself with her mind. I'd say she is considerably powerful.

Put the circumstances in perspective before you comment, Nebaris.



According to you, someone like Yoda (who has much more experience, training, and learning in the ways of the Force than Krayt) wouldn't give someone like Bane a hard time (I believed you said that Bane would "own" him) yet Krayt suddenly can give Luke a hard time?

My advice? Quit with the double standards. RotS Sidious tooled three of the best swordsmen in the Order's history in seconds and - according to you - held back against Mace. I guess he'd own Krayt as well and give Bane a hard time (even though, as Nai has concluded, the continuity seems to think that Sidious > Bane as of PT).

But it doesn't matter. RotS Sidious > Krayt, and I don't see RotS Sidious really giving Luke that hard of a time. So, Luke would manhandle Krayt and then take out Bane.

Luke wins.

Well said, sir. Bane and Krayt aren't indestructible beings that can never lose, it just takes someone to find the weakness...which I believe Mace could do too, who would be no match for Luke...

Could Bane beat NJO Luke one on one?

Originally posted by LORDSIDIOUS01
Could Bane beat NJO Luke one on one?


...


Bane couldn't beat Luke ten on one.

Originally posted by LORDSIDIOUS01
Could Bane beat NJO Luke one on one? No

Originally posted by LORDSIDIOUS01
Could Bane beat NJO Luke one on one?

Maybe if he had the Imperial Starfleet behind him. And I mean the whole thing.

Originally posted by Gideon
Maybe if he had the Imperial Starfleet behind him. And I mean the whole thing. Enough joking, one on one, that means no one helps him

No one can defeat Luke one on one.

Originally posted by vader11
Enough joking, one on one, that means no one helps him

Exactly...



^ This comment was made by Jollyjim in reference to "could Bane beat Luke, one-on-one". I was adding a further joke to this, declaring that Bane couldn't do so even if he had the full support of the Galactic Empire.

I've wasted sixty seconds of my life trying to explain this joke to you.

Ofcoz I understand, but your logic is wrong

Originally posted by vader11
Ofcoz I understand, but your logic is wrong

Is there a problem? Did you completely miss the point of the joke? The joke is that there is no way Bane can beat Luke without support, thus, saying "no, he can't take him one on one". Instead of parroting this, however, I made a jest about it.

Jesus. Why don't you go debate with Kadesh or something, 'cuz you're not worth my time.

"one on one", which means only Bane & Luke, nothing else. No Imperial Starfleet.
Why you always make jokes if you time is so important?

Killing humor is no fun.

You are a simple, simple little man, aren't you?

But his humor is no fun

Your fun is no humor.

People, people, lets stop with the insults, lets keep it civilized.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
People, people, lets stop with the insults, lets keep it civilized. Agree. I didn't make fun in this thread

Get a clue. When do you "make fun" in any thread?

NJO Luke beats them both.

LMFAO, I wasn't even going to bother taking the time out to dig out the quote of you saying such, but the 'unknowns' jab really hurt my feelings, so unlucky:

"Aside of that we have people like Tulak Hord and the Exile who also seem to have mastered several styles"

Please don't lie, Nai (lolz, I'm a poet).



Right, because The Nai says so? Dude, you can't argue against this, she was stated to wield the weapon like a true master the very first time she picked one up, it's that simple. Now I'm not saying that at that point, she could just go and tool any master, not at all, I just find your remark that any experienced master would be able to just tool her, despite the fact that she was explicitly stated to have already wielded the weapon like a true master very odd. It seems you just can't handle someone who's not a PT or NJO Jedi having that kind of talent, and won't accept it.



Absence of proof =/ proof of absence. For all you know, if given the chance, she could have tooled just about anybody in her era (though I will say that I doubt she'd beat Ulic or Exar). We simply don't know.



I've already answered to this above, but I'll reply again: Hell Yeah! When we have people like Kyle Katarn defeating 7 powerful darksider lightsaber wielders without any training, and Ulic Quel-Droma fending off the attacks of an extremely powerful darkside driven jedi Master, while having been cut off from the force, out of practise for a decade, and holding back, it's really not that hard to believe that Nomi could possess such astonishing talent. I'd actually say that it's likely her pure talent with the saber is second to nobody.



Arguing against the line from an out of story perspective is pointless, as it doesn't apply to stuff that happens inside the story, so this is irrelevant.



I'm not denying that she would have missed out on years of experience and training, and general improvement, however it's likely that her natural talent was so incredible that it made up for all of that. I think that was the point of the statement; to show just how incredible her natural talent was, despite her lack of experience and training.



1. "It's also a known fact that to receive this position somebody must have successfully trained another person to Jedi Knight status."

False. It's not a prerequisite for becoming a Master, many Masters, even Council Members, never trained a padawan. This alone proves your theory wrong. Mace could have simply trained her after becoming a Master.

2. "We know that Mace did train Depa Billaba and taught her Vaapad in that days"

Do we know that, or are you just assuming? If it's said somewhere, then I'll eat my words, but if you're just assuming that he must have taught her when she was his padawan, then that's all it is: an assumption. For all you know, he could have created it when they were both Masters, and taught it to her when she was also a Master, like he did with Sora Bulq.

3. "As the average training of somebody to Jedi Knight status takes at least 13 years (Anakin, Mace himself), at least with the guidelines of the PT Jedi Order"

Where's this said? If you're assuming that that would be the minimum time based on a few random examples, then that's quite simply ridiculous.

Really, there's no point in you replying, since point #1 already proves your entire theory wrong. Really, don't you think it would have been mentioned in another source if he had created the form by the age of 13, it's pretty noteworthy. You're looking far too into this.



Yeah, because I'm a bastard, Tyrant's Test . No more excuses now big boy.



If you can indeed prove that this is true, I'd probably rate Luke a little higher, but I really just don't buy it. If that was the case, he would have used the abilities again, in times where they could have helped, for example, against Lumiya. Surely he could have just made himself unsee able and insensible in the force, and used some of his infinite supply of force energy to suspend her in the air and create a wall of light around her or something. Really, if it was as simple as you're making it out to be, he would have used the techniques again sometime.



Nai, what is it that makes the Vong immune to the Living Force, and impossible to sense by the Living Force? I'll answer for you: it's their lack of presence within the Living Force. Now given that Nihilus lacks presence in the force, period (Living, Unifying...) please explain why Nihilus wouldn't possess those same qualities. The Exile example just flat out proves nothing, given that she doesn't possess the same nature as Nihilus, and started slowly regaining her force presence ever since the start of KotOR2, and thus is not a 100% wound in the force.



Please explain what the hell you're talking about. Since when did Leia come across a wound in the force?

Look, quit with the 'oh my's, you made it seem like he slaughtered entire armies all at once, not on separate occasions, so please allow being so sneaky.



A nice amount = army?
BTW, is Darth Maul a god too?



Whatever, if it's no more impressive than what you just mentioned, it means jack, quite frankly. What you need to understand is that for even slightly powerful force users, taking out large numbers of non force users really isn't that tricky, as can be seen constantly throughout the mythology (the Darth Maul comic, for example). If relative weaklings like Maul can do similar feats, it's really not worth bragging about.



Again, quit with the 'apparent ease' bs, if it was so easy, he wouldn't have been so fatigued by the time he fought Shimraa. Now this is impressive, I won't deny that, but is it really so beyond someone like Bane, who himself can move at insane speeds, and who possesses near indestructible armour?



Read the title of the topic, genius, this is NJO Luke, Pay Attention!!



And? Bane was described in a similar light too during his duel with Sirak, and that was lightyears away from his ability shown in BotS.



I'm not denying that Luke's very powerful, but so are Krayt and Bane. I just can't see him getting past the both of them with any sort of ease whatsoever.



Bane: Directing the movement of a moon to a considerable degree, casually, while riding on the back of a flying beast.

Controlling and directing enough power to wipe out an entire world, and virtually anything in its path.

Moving at speeds comparable to what Luke achieves at a point where he's nowhere near as powerful as his BotS incarnation.

Mastering lightning on first usage, and creating miniature storms with it.

Having the skill and ability with a saber to defeat Kas'im in a duel.

Possessing near indestructible armour.

Krayt: Tooling about 6 powerful Imperial Knights with a saber all at once.

Ruling above an entire legion of darksiders, and keeping them in line.

Possessing Vonduun Crab Armour, which is extremely potent in defending against a lightsaber.

Having hundreds of years worth of experience, training, and studying under the force.

...

Defeating armies really isn't too beyond what people like Krayt and Bane can accomplish, it's not the end all be all of who's powerful in the SW universe.



Oh how you love twisting things. You forgot to mention a few facts.

1. Sidious wasn't even taking their duel seriously, and could have finished Luke if he chose to use the force

2. Luke was only able to defeat Sidious because Leia was powering him up via battle meditation.

3. RotS Sidious is in now way superior to Bane, stop using LiarSnake's fake sources, they don't work.

4. BotS Bane and DE Sidious are basically on par, and Bane is likely superior to Sids in terms of saber duelling.

What we're essentially getting down to here, is that you're using an ABC argument that doesn't even work. That's what you'd call a double fallacy.







No.



If you consider typing up long ass responses that I don't have time to reply to a victory, then you'd be correct.



WTF? Is this some sort of poor attempt to skirt around my question? You seem to have missed my point, which was that if Luke was as powerful as you seem to think, he wouldn't have struggled so much against Lumiya. I already went into this point earlier along in this post, so there's no need to repeat my self, already dealt with.



"Read the title of the topic, genius, this is NJO Luke, Pay Attention!!"

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
LMFAO, I wasn't even going to bother taking the time out to dig out the quote of you saying such, but the 'unknowns' jab really hurt my feelings, so unlucky:

"Aside of that we have people like Tulak Hord and the Exile who also seem to have mastered several styles"

Please don't lie, Nai (lolz, I'm a poet).

Nice action ripping out statement out of the actual context. Also notice the "seem" within the sentece. I didn't state that that Hord or the Exile did actually master several styles, I said it seemed as if that was the case. You might spot a nice different there. And I did never try to argue that the Exile mastered all seven forms or that Hord did. Which was actually where we were coming from while I did say, even in this debate here, that the Exile most likely had knowledge of different forms. So what do you want, smartass ?



Oh my, idiot. Please define "like a master" to do me. Like what master ? Like Master Windu who created his own style ? Like master Yoda who was capable of dodging three lightsaber without having one in his own hands ? Or like Master Agen "WTF Sidious raped me in two seconds" Kolar ? And yet I don't know why you even brought that up. Nomi is descriped as a prodigy in all fields of the Jedi Arts while the Exile is descriped as "midiocre Jedi" by Vrook and "average" by Vandar with the exception of the force bond thing. Does somebody mention her UBER skills in the art of lightsaber combat ? No ? Then lay this strawman to rest.



Obviously she was not able to "tool" Nihilus or Sion. Revan ? Malak ? Bandon ? I guess they were all "above" the Exile in the ranks of Revan's fleet for some reason. And Kun as well as Ulic don't really belong to the time of the Exile. The people in the first KotoR game are already just remains of the TOTJ comic Jedi Order. After being hunted down by Sith assassins that situation did most likely not turn any better.



The point is that the Exile is by no means compareable to prodegies in the art of lightsaber combat as she was average at best. An average Jedi doesn't take up a weapon to instantly fight like a master. That's the entire point in my argument. The Exile isn't compareable to the like of Ulic, Kyle or Kun in that department. Not even close to.



Arguing against canon from any given perspective isn't exactly smart too. There is simply no way to "master" the art of lightsaber combat by simply picking up the weapon and swing it around. Otherwise Luke in times of ANH should have been able to kick the asses of some random thugs using his lightsaber. Yet obviously he still prefers his blaster - even after training with Yoda in ESB.



Really. Talent can't make up for years / decades of combat training no matter how long you're trying to argue it. I can again only site Mace who in the RotS novel is capable of fencing Sidious without even wasting a thought on the actual movements he does with the saber just because of the training he had.That's a level of combat skill only archievable through training. Talent would obviously help you there to advance faster but that's really as far as it goes.



Lacking knowledge much ? All members of the Jedi Council (in times of the PT) did sucessfully train Padawans to Jedi Knight status. The only exception actually is Ki-Adi Mundi who was chosen into the council because of his logical abilities.



Read Shatterpoint. He recalls them fighting together as Master / Padawan combo both using Vaapad. So yes. He did train her in that art when she was his padawan.

So he can't have created it when they both were masters. It's even said that he created it together with Sora Bulq who was one of his lightsaber trainers at that time. As Jedi Knights don't receive lightsaber training any longer and Mace became a Jedi Knight at the age of 14 he must actually have come up with Vaapad before that. So ?



Oh. You did notice that those "random examples" are actually the two most gifted students (meaning advancing through the ranks the fastest) the order had at that time ? As you might have noticed it took other people 25 years to become Jedi Knights (Kenobi for example). Getting there in 13 years after actually starting to train (Anakin, Mace) is pretty outstanding since normally people with that training time where just chosen to become Padawans.



Since your #1 is already wrong that's pretty nice. And since I, unlike you, possess some knowledge when it comes to Star Wars it's pretty pointless for you to actually come up with any sort of rebuttal to this.

continue...

...cont:



What excuses are you talking about, idiot ?
Here some display of the Falanassi abilities Luke did learn in that book:

"When she did not even look back, he started after her. But in the next moment, she vanished--as thoroughly and effortlessly as she had aboard the ship. There was not even a tremble in the Force to mark her disappearance or betray her presence afterward."

Ups. She simply turned herself completely invisible and unsenseable.

Then Luke doing the same thing to the vagabond to "practice":
When Luke closed his eyes and began breathing in deep, slow waves, Eckels noted it without comment. But he was not wholly surprised when, a short time later, the vagabond disappeared completely from view.

Ups. Entire massive star ship disappearing thanks to Luke without needing any concentration from him to keep it hidden once it vanished. He's manipulating the force to do that directly



See above. And that happened roughly a decade before the NJO giving Luke pretty much time to practice that abilities further. And please: How boring would SW novels get if Luke would use this every time ? You would only see him "stealthing" around just to reappear (if even that) right next to his opponent and kill / defeat them. What do you think why they always have to either weaken him before confrontation, make him hesistate (holding back) or equip his opponents with huge amount of powers. Hell...in the DN trilogy Unu'Thul is wielding "the combined powers" of the Killiks (at that time 275 planets filled with them and joiners) and he puts everything into one single attack on Luke and Luke - shrugs it off and doesn't even move a centrimetre.



WTF ? Again. Where does it ever say that Nihilus doesn't have any presence in the force ? He and the Exile are both descriped as "wounds in the force" and they are senseable - even more than any other force user as they radiate pain via the force. They do carry that in them. Technically they are some compressed versions of what Obi-Wan felt when Alderaan was vaporized and what Yoda sensed when Order 66 was executed. That's "not senseable" for you ? Again I can only ask you where it was ever mentioned that Nihilus can't be sensed. And don't dodge this question again.



The destruction of the second Death Star over Endor did create a wound in the force. Leia was simply knocked out because of that when she did return to Endor five years after ROTJ. As I said: Wounds in the force are always created when a huge loss of life happens in short times. And they are pretty damn senseable.




Yeah. Your reading disability is obviously my fault.



Yes. It's completely beyond Bane to actually do that unless you show me where he kills people that have force lightning "arching away from them" with force abilities or he slaughters people with lightsaber resistant armor, multiple times as strong as trained human soldiers, with entchantments done via bio-engeneering that makes their speed compareable to that of Jedi.



Of course Bane was descriped in a similar way to this here:

"He was his own vortex, deflecting amphistaff strikes, whiplike lashes, and spurts of deadly venom; dodging or redirecting flights of thud bugs; parrying the thrusts of coufees, to sidestep, duck, maneuver his body in ways that seemed to defy gravity. Stunned or burned by Luke's green blade, thud bugs were ricocheting from the walls and high ceiling, chipping away at the yorik coral surface.



His single blade might as well have been ten, or twenty. He took the steps at a lightning pace, burning his way through dilating membranes but in complete control of his momentum. Seen through the Force he was a maelstrom of luminous energy, a Force storm against which there was no shelter. And yet all his energy poured from a calm center; an eye.

He made no missteps. None of his actions were interrupted by thought. In fact, Luke didn't seem to be there at all - physically or as an individual personality. Jacen and Jaina were astounded - but they had little time to reflect."

You were saying ?



Which still has not be confirmed to have actually happened as he just thinks he has to do that himself. And again I can only say that RotS Sidious has been descriped as the strongest Sith of Bane's order, meaning he > Bane at this point already.



I wonder how powerful that opponents / followers actually were.



Yeah. Yuuzhan Vong armor. See above how much it did help against Luke's actual onslaught.



Yeah. Calling the RotS and TPM novels "fake sources" is pretty funny. Or the comments of Leland Chee on the issue. Or Lucas own words. Really funny that is.



Come back when Bane "ravages space-time itself" with his force powers.



This was the dumbest justification attempt for losing a debate that I've ever seen.



Yeah. What you haven't dealt with is that the last story of the series released (Exile) tells you that Luke could have destroyed Lumiya on the spot any time given. So why even bother to argue that fight ?

And because Nebaris is a clear fool"

Bane of the Sith takes place immediately after Path of Destruction. ALmost immediately