A prophet like Moses

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muslimscholar
I read that in the bible it says there will be a prophet that will be like Moses and Christians believe it is Jesus?

Shakyamunison
Ok, but why would you believe the bible?

muslimscholar
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Ok, but why would you believe the bible?

i dont i am asking is it ture

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by muslimscholar
i dont i am asking is it ture

Oh! ok...

Alfheim
The point muslimscholar is getting to is that the Bible predicts Mohammed.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Alfheim
The point muslimscholar is getting to is that the Bible predicts Mohammed.

The bible did not predict anything. We see patterns where there are none.

muslimscholar
Originally posted by Alfheim
The point muslimscholar is getting to is that the Bible predicts Mohammed.

it does tho and you know

Alfheim
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The bible did not predict anything. We see patterns where there are none.

Hey I dont care im just telling you the point he is trying to make.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by muslimscholar
it does tho and you know

I do not know what you are saying, but I understand the bible, and it is the most misunderstood book on the Earth. All predictions in the bible are actually post-dictions.

Regret
The LDS believe this may have been Christ, due to his expounding on the Law of Moses.

We also believe it possibly was a reference to Brigham Young and the expelling of the LDS from the United States and the Trek west to Utah.

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Alfheim
The point muslimscholar is getting to is that the Bible predicts Mohammed.

No, the Bible does not predict Muhammed.

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by muslimscholar
i dont i am asking is it ture

Is it what true? The question concerning whether the Bible is true (or not) or whether the prophet who is foretold by Moses is Jesus? The answer to both questions is categorically yes.

lord xyz
Originally posted by muslimscholar
I read that in the bible it says there will be a prophet that will be like Moses and Christians believe it is Jesus? It is Jewish faith that King David, will return and save the Jews. Those who believed it was Jesus became Christians, those who didn't, remained Jewish.

It is Muslims who believe that there will be a third Prophet, Muhammed, where Moses is the second, and Abraham is the first.

Thundar
Originally posted by Regret
The LDS believe this may have been Christ, due to his expounding on the Law of Moses.

We also believe it possibly was a reference to Brigham Young and the expelling of the LDS from the United States and the Trek west to Utah.

I'm of the belief that Jesus was probably the prophet Moses was referring to. The Isaiah prophecy of the "suffering servant" can be used to support this. Many theologians also think that the Isaiah prophecy alludes to another end time's prophet that may possibly come about, or one who represents a second Moses or a second David during these times, who God(or Christ) makes another covenant with. I think this has to mainly do with the context of the word "servant" is used in Isaiah, as in some parts it doesn't seem to be directly referring to Jesus.

Understanding prophecy is a tricky thing - really impossible to discern what exactly what is meant within the scriptures and who God is referring to unless he allows us too. I try not to worry about understanding all the prophecy inasmuch as i do fulfilling God's will, because in the end - prophecy or not, that's all I'll really be judged on.

muslimscholar
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Is it what true? The question concerning whether the Bible is true (or not) or whether the prophet who is foretold by Moses is Jesus? The answer to both questions is categorically yes.

How is moses like jesus when moses is a prophet and according to you jesus is god

Thundar
Originally posted by muslimscholar
How is moses like jesus when moses is a prophet and according to you jesus is god

Jesus was most likely the prophet Moses was referring to, it's possible that there could be another "Moses" or "David" though based on the later Isaiah prophecy. Only God knows the answer to this one though.wink

muslimscholar
The Aramaic Bible mentions "Muhammad" as the next Prophet of GOD Almighty

This article was sent to me by brother Tera Tak Adamar; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.

I was getting shock when I read that "Paraklytos" is actually "Muhammad" in Aramaic - the mother tongue' of Prophet Jesus (p.b.u.h).




Follow me as we trace the Biblical history of this Greek word "Paraclete". Startling as it may seem, at one time the word read "Periklytos" and "Paraklytos", which is the name for "Muhammad" in Greek. Surprising? It should not be because both words mean "Praised" or "Celebrate," the meaning and character of the man "Muhammad." (1 Jesus in The Qur'an, One World Publications, (c) Geoffrey Parrinder 1965, 1995, ISBN 1-85168-094-2. Knowing this, there is a need for us to study the life of Prophet Muhammad in depth to see if it all stands up. Surprisingly it does.




Allahu Akbar (GOD is Great)!, for the complete explanation by Aramaic Bible Society please visit:

http://www.aramaic.org/PARAVLETE.html

This proved what has been said by Qur'an:




"Those who follow the apostle the unlettered prophet (prophet Muhammad - p.b.u.h) whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures); in the law (Torah) and the Gospel" (Qur'an 7:157)




According to Holy Qur'an the name of prophet Muhammad or Ahmad (p.b.u.h) is mention by name in the Gospel (Injeel):




"And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is Ahmad (the Praised One)." (Qur'an 61:6)




If you refer to Song of Solomon in Hebrew scripture, the name 'Muhammad' also mention there, please read Song of Solomon 5:16, it looks like this:




"Hikow mamtaqiym wkulow mahamadiym zeh dowdiy wzeh ree`iy bnowt yruushaalaaim."

ADarksideJedi
It is either Jesus (got to read that part again where is it in the bible?)Or maybe another person in the bible.Do you mean now or in the bible?jm

Regret
Originally posted by Thundar
I'm of the belief that Jesus was probably the prophet Moses was referring to. The Isaiah prophecy of the "suffering servant" can be used to support this. Many theologians also think that the Isaiah prophecy alludes to another end time's prophet that may possibly come about, or one who represents a second Moses or a second David during these times, who God(or Christ) makes another covenant with. I think this has to mainly do with the context of the word "servant" is used in Isaiah, as in some parts it doesn't seem to be directly referring to Jesus.

Understanding prophecy is a tricky thing - really impossible to discern what exactly what is meant within the scriptures and who God is referring to unless he allows us too. I try not to worry about understanding all the prophecy inasmuch as i do fulfilling God's will, because in the end - prophecy or not, that's all I'll really be judged on. Then, doesn't Brigham Young and his experiences with the LDS not appear to be more than coincidence? Or do these theologians draw the line at someone that doesn't follow their dogmatic traditions?

Mindship
Bible = part Rorschach test

Devil King
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Is it what true? The question concerning whether the Bible is true (or not) or whether the prophet who is foretold by Moses is Jesus? The answer to both questions is categorically yes.

Thanks, you've really cleared it all up.

Regret
Originally posted by Mindship
Bible = part Rorschach test I think more accurately:

Bible Prophecy = part Rorschach test

I think that the Bible as a whole is more like a person. Very plain as to various things, and yet some things are beyond the scope of proper study/understanding as the internal constructs are. Thus you also have the skeptic that says, "mind, pfaw, no real evidence for such a thing."

Regret
Originally posted by Devil King
Thanks, you've really cleared it all up. He's in error. Categorically: Being without exception or qualification; absolute. If the prophecy of one like Moses categorically referenced Jesus, the Jews would have followed him. As it is, the Jews believed such prophecies did not reference Jesus, thus the prophecies did not categorically reference Jesus.

Thundar
Originally posted by Regret
Then, doesn't Brigham Young and his experiences with the LDS not appear to be more than coincidence? Or do these theologians draw the line at someone that doesn't follow their dogmatic traditions?

Not really, particularly when you look at LDS doctrine and how much it contradicts scripture. You'll generally find that those truly called to prophecy within the scripture, are generally those the least likely to want to be prophets and the least likely to reveal themselves as such.

They will also present information that compliments the scripture without really adding to it or taking away from it. Unfortunately, both Mormonism and Islam tend to do both of these things - which is why neither Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, nor Muhammad were true prophets of God.

If you think about it logically, who would really run at the opportunity of being a prophet? Just by looking at the stories of Elijah, Eziekiel, and Moses anyone can see that the prophet's life is a difficult one. Moses had the right attitude when intimidated with God's request. He fully understood that leading people and being a representative of God was not something that could be taken lightly.

Devil King
Originally posted by Regret
He's in error.

No shit.

Darth Jello
Originally posted by muslimscholar
I read that in the bible it says there will be a prophet that will be like Moses and Christians believe it is Jesus?

This is actually one of the reasons jews don't think that jesus was the messiah. The prophecy states that the meshiah is not the son of god, but is one born of man, without foreskin who will free the chosen people from oppression. Jesus doesn't fit this. He never freed anyone from a oppression, he is the supposed son of god, and he had a bris so therefore, he is not the messiah/meshiah.

Regret
Originally posted by Thundar
Not really, particularly when you look at LDS doctrine and how much it contradicts scripture. More correctly stated: "When you look at LDS doctrine and how much it contradicts mainstream Christianity's dogmatic traditions." LDS doctrines only conflict with mainstream Christianity's dogmatic traditions, not with the Bible. They conflict with these traditional interpretations of the Bible, not the Bible. Originally posted by Thundar You'll generally find that those truly called to prophecy within the scripture, are generally those the least likely to want to be prophets and the least likely to reveal themselves as such. Yes, perhaps in general this is true, but we are speaking of a prophet "like Moses" not like the other prophets.

Originally posted by Thundar
They will also present information that compliments the scripture without really adding to it or taking away from it. Unfortunately, both Mormonism and Islam tend to do both of these things - which is why neither Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, nor Muhammad were true prophets of God. Lol, define scripture without the term Bible. The Bible is a collection of books added to the Christian Canon following the deaths of the apostles.

And, I must come to a complete disagreement with you as to your view of Moses, Moses caused the first "addition" to scripture. He is the one that set in motion the written account, prior to him the Hebrew religion was a verbal tradition. A prophet like Moses would be similar.

But then, no man has ever truly added to scripture. God speaks and anything he has spoken is scripture. Who are you, or any other "Christian", to say when and where God may stop speaking? There is no Biblical reference to an ending of prophets, such is assumed by the group of people with whom God did not speak, the "Christians" following the death of the last apostle.

Now, you have entirely responded in the affirmative to "do these theologians draw the line at someone that doesn't follow their dogmatic traditions?" A position you wholly support. Now, Joseph Smith, and all the prophets have one thing in common, Christ himself stated it:



And neither have they.

Originally posted by Thundar
If you think about it logically, who would really run at the opportunity of being a prophet? Just by looking at the stories of Elijah, Eziekiel, and Moses anyone can see that the prophet's life is a difficult one. Moses had the right attitude when intimidated with God's request. He fully understood that leading people and being a representative of God was not something that could be taken lightly. Yes, again, in general this is true, but we are speaking of a prophet "like Moses" not like the other prophets. You are making statements without base, none of the recent prophets have taken being the representative of God lightly. The supposed "Christians" no longer listen to God, as they have turned deaf ears on the possibility of God's speaking to them in their time. The LDS have not taken God lightly, mainstream "Christianity" has.

Regret
Originally posted by Darth Jello
This is actually one of the reasons jews don't think that jesus was the messiah. The prophecy states that the meshiah is not the son of god, but is one born of man, without foreskin who will free the chosen people from oppression. Jesus doesn't fit this. He never freed anyone from a oppression, he is the supposed son of god, and he had a bris so therefore, he is not the messiah/meshiah. But, this is a matter of interpretational differences. This is a problem no one seems to grasp. The Jews are correct, Jesus' coming did not fit their interpretation of the prophecies. Also, the prophecies do not give time lines, it is entirely possible various events will happen in the future. Now, as to being man or son of God, the prophesies are silent, it is assumed by the Jews that he will be a man due to their view of what God is. Bottom line, interpretational differences are all that exist between most Hebrew based religions, the scriptures do not themselves conflict with most views if interpreted by that view.

JesusIsAlive

Mindship
Originally posted by Regret
Bible Prophecy = part Rorschach test Technically wink that's why I worded it as, "Bible = part Rorschach test," but your rephrasing is more concise (I'm actually tempted to say, "Bible Prophecy is entirely a Rorschach test...but I'm not entirely convinced that is the case).

Thundar
Originally posted by Regret
More correctly stated: "When you look at LDS doctrine and how much it contradicts mainstream Christianity's dogmatic traditions." LDS doctrines only conflict with mainstream Christianity's dogmatic traditions, not with the Bible. They conflict with these traditional interpretations of the Bible, not the Bible.


Most of the LDS doctrine greatly conflicts with not just mainstream Christianity, but also with what's written within the scriptures. Still, as it has been mentioned and confirmed in other threads - many non-Christians(at least non-Christians in a scriptural sense) will be deemed as followers of Christ by their loving fulfillment of the law - rather than having a complete understanding of the gospels.


Originally posted by Regret
Yes, again, in general this is true, but we are speaking of a prophet "like Moses" not like the other prophets. You are making statements without base, none of the recent prophets have taken being the representative of God lightly. The supposed "Christians" no longer listen to God, as they have turned deaf ears on the possibility of God's speaking to them in their time. The LDS have not taken God lightly, mainstream "Christianity" has.


I think you're reading way too much into the term "a prophet like Moses." Such a term could mean a lot of different things, and doesn't necessarily have to reflect one who is exactly like Moses was, or does the exact same things that Moses did. It could be referring to the same humility of character that Moses exhibited, it could refer to the works he performed, or it could mean something entirely different. We can't really be for certain. Only God knows the answer to this one. And as it has been generally found within the scriptures - those who dogmatically assign the title "prophet" to themselves or are defined as such by the popular masses - often times really aren't true prophets of God.

lord xyz
I decided to quote this because it's obviously been ignored.
Originally posted by lord xyz
It is Jewish faith that King David, will return and save the Jews. Those who believed it was Jesus became Christians, those who didn't, remained Jewish.

It is Muslims who believe that there will be a third Prophet, Muhammed, where Moses is the second, and Abraham is the first.

Regret
Originally posted by Thundar
Most of the LDS doctrine greatly conflicts with not just mainstream Christianity, but also with what's written within the scriptures. Still, as it has been mentioned and confirmed in other threads - many non-Christians(at least non-Christians in a scriptural sense) will be deemed as followers of Christ by their loving fulfillment of the law - rather than having a complete understanding of the gospels. I would laugh but such would be disrespectful of you. "...But also with what's written within the scriptures." You fail to grasp that the LDS Doctrine is based in the Bible, we merely interpret the text differently than yourself and the rest of mainstream Christianity, as well as hold that God continues to speak to man. You state that if we disagree with you, we are in disagreement with the Bible. This is false.
Originally posted by Thundar
I think you're reading way too much into the term "a prophet like Moses." Such a term could mean a lot of different things, and doesn't necessarily have to reflect one who is exactly like Moses was, or does the exact same things that Moses did. It could be referring to the same humility of character that Moses exhibited, it could refer to the works he performed, or it could mean something entirely different. We can't really be for certain. Only God knows the answer to this one. And as it has been generally found within the scriptures - those who dogmatically assign the title "prophet" to themselves or are defined as such by the popular masses - often times really aren't true prophets of God. And so, once again you state, "I don't know, but regardless of my not knowing, you are still wrong" You obviously have little knowledge of the prophets of the Bible. God called them, and they stood and proclaimed what God had told them, they did what God told them to do, and they still do.

muslimscholar

muslimscholar
you have also proved that Jesus is a prophet not god you are contradicting yourself make your mind up

JesusIsAlive

JesusIsAlive

Thundar
Originally posted by Regret
I would laugh but such would be disrespectful of you. "...But also with what's written within the scriptures." You fail to grasp that the LDS Doctrine is based in the Bible, we merely interpret the text differently than yourself and the rest of mainstream Christianity, as well as hold that God continues to speak to man. You state that if we disagree with you, we are in disagreement with the Bible. This is false.


Umm. We've kind of been over this in the Mormon thread. I mean you no disrespect, but I'm going to disregard it for the sake of staying on topic with this one. If you want to discuss why you think LDS doctrine and how it relates to the scriptures - please feel free to bump that thread.

Originally posted by Regret
God called them, and they stood and proclaimed what God had told them, they did what God told them to do, and they still do.


You are correct - most of them never really proclaimed themselves as prophets, but instead they just "proclaimed what God had told them" usually prefacing most of what they said with "this is what the Lord says" so the people would know that the words coming out of their mouths - and wasn't coming from themselves.

You seldom ever directy read of them referring to themselves as prophets before the people. Jesus himself rarely makes references to himself being "the prophet" or the "messiah" within the scriptures to the people, and I don't believe John the Baptist ever refers to himself as a prophet within theml(even though he clearly was one).

Darth Jello
i'm referring to the Tanach, the hebrew old testamnet. Anything from the new is completely irrelevant to my arguement and nothing you've quoted refutes it. Please refer to a song called "The Most Offensive Song Ever"

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Darth Jello
i'm referring to the Tanach, the hebrew old testamnet. Anything from the new is completely irrelevant to my arguement and nothing you've quoted refutes it. Please refer to a song called "The Most Offensive Song Ever"

Can you provide chapter and verse for what you quoted?

mr.smiley
you could realy even refer to Moses and Jesus as the same person.When looking at the story of Moses in the context of myth you will find that essentialy the two are realy the same person.Moses is the lower self leading his people {his mind),into the promised land.It's actualy Joshua ben Nun who completes the journey.The name,Joshua ben nun can actualy be translated as 'Jesus son of the fish'.
When interpurting the bible as myth,it's easy to see how Moses doesn't make a refernce to the coming of Jesus,but is actualy acknowleding his own awareness and higher state of mind,or of gnosis.

lil bitchiness
I am confused muslimscholar. Firstly, Islamic theology claims viciously that the Bible was corrupted.

So how can something corrupted, predict anything remortlay accurate?

Alfheim
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I am confused muslimscholar. Firstly, Islamic theology claims viciously that the Bible was corrupted.

So how can something corrupted, predict anything remortlay accurate?

He will probably tell you that there is still some truth left in the bible. Of course anything that supports Islam.

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by mr.smiley
you could realy even refer to Moses and Jesus as the same person.When looking at the story of Moses in the context of myth you will find that essentialy the two are realy the same person.Moses is the lower self leading his people {his mind),into the promised land.It's actualy Joshua ben Nun who completes the journey.The name,Joshua ben nun can actualy be translated as 'Jesus son of the fish'.
When interpurting the bible as myth,it's easy to see how Moses doesn't make a refernce to the coming of Jesus,but is actualy acknowleding his own awareness and higher state of mind,or of gnosis.

Jesus and Moses are not one and the same person. What is your evidence that the Bible is myth?

lord xyz
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Jesus and Moses are not one and the same person. What is your evidence that the Bible is myth? Oh my. Try the fact that it's been re-written nearly every year. Why would it be re-written if it's true?

FeceMan
Originally posted by lord xyz
Oh my. Try the fact that it's been re-written nearly every year. Why would it be re-written if it's true?
To help with understanding, as the KJV is damn hard to read.

Regret
Originally posted by Alfheim
He will probably tell you that there is still some truth left in the bible. Of course anything that supports Islam. If Islam is true, such would be an accurate statement.

lord xyz
Originally posted by FeceMan
To help with understanding, as the KJV is damn hard to read. Or rather, to correct errors such as bats being birds.

FeceMan
Originally posted by lord xyz
Or rather, to correct errors such as bats being birds.
Really? I didn't realize that there was a system of classification back in Ye Olde Bible Times.

mr.smiley
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Jesus and Moses are not one and the same person. What is your evidence that the Bible is myth?

Well we now know the story of Noahs flood was a mythological story predating its apperance in the bible.Jesus was based upon much older prophets.In studying mythology and early Christianity it's apparent that Moses,along with Joshua ben Nun were the stepping stones to what would become Jesus.

FeceMan
Originally posted by mr.smiley
Well we now know the story of Noahs flood was a mythological story predating its apperance in the bible.Jesus was based upon much older prophets.In studying mythology and early Christianity it's apparent that Moses,along with Joshua ben Nun were the stepping stones to what would become Jesus.
Jesus was based on prophesy.

mr.smiley
Jesus was the Jewish version of older Pagan godmen.

debbiejo
True the church inserted him and intertwined the stories to bring in the masses. The church, also as we know, changed the pagan holy days to Christian Holidays. And making other holy days such as today Friday the 13th (today) a day of bad luck when actually it was a day of good luck. Such a campaign to rid the ancient peoples of their belief in sacred feminine symbolism has links to the day Friday. In Muslim culture, Friday is regarded as a holy day, while in pagan Norse mythology, Friday is the only day in the week which celebrates a goddess, namely Frigg.

mr.smiley
Just like old times!

debbiejo
Yeppers!! big grin

JesusIsAlive

mr.smiley
Is this why the flood story in Genisis isn't nearly as old as in other traditions.Are you also going to advance the argument the devil created these older stories to decive people?These arguements are nothing new.The bible is as much mythological as any early stories coming from rome or anywere else in the ancient world.

If I show you the nordic story of 'The Ring',you will obviously find parelles between it and Lord Of The Rings,and people would willingly accept this.However,apply this same approach to religon and everyone attributes it to the devil,or totaly denies it by putting blind faith into a system of beliefs.

Nellinator
Originally posted by mr.smiley
Is this why the flood story in Genisis isn't nearly as old as in other traditions.Are you also going to advance the argument the devil created these older stories to decive people?These arguements are nothing new.The bible is as much mythological as any early stories coming from rome or anywere else in the ancient world.

If I show you the nordic story of 'The Ring',you will obviously find parelles between it and Lord Of The Rings,and people would willingly accept this.However,apply this same approach to religon and everyone attributes it to the devil,or totaly denies it by putting blind faith into a system of beliefs. Actually, the tradition is older than the Bible by necessity. How old, we do not know. Ultimately it only goes to show that a flood did indeed happen, this does not validate or invalidate any account of the flood.

mr.smiley
I know their are several beliefs in different cultures of a great flood.I wouldn't say that realy means that a flood happend.For example,take the mythological creature,'the Dragon'.

Depections of dragons showed up all over the world in different cultures without a any insperation for any other peoples culture.Yet almost every culture belived they created the dragon.We know dragons didn't exist,so how could so many different cultures come up with the same idea of this mythological creature?Perhaps the dragon is somehow embeded into our psyche in a way we can't understand?Or maybe people just had the same idea.

Anyhow,when we look at the Old Testiments flood story it's pretty much indistiguishable from the Mesopotamian story of Utnapishtim.when this same story is put into a Jewish context we are given a reason why the Canaanites are bad.

Did a great flood happen?I don't known maybe,their's plenty of researches that go out trying to find proof of it.Most the time you here of some amazing finding they make.It's always front page news.However,once they discover their research was inaccurate,or just plain out wrong we never hear it unless we go looking for it.

In a nutshell i would say the story of a great flood,in any culture,is a moral story for man to be good or the gods,or god is going to get very pissed and get rid of all the bad people.Or it could have been nothing more than mans attempt to attach god to the causes of natural evil,as opposed to moral evil.

FeceMan
Oddly enough, the Book of Adam and Eve--while not canonical--supports the existence of dragons.

mr.smiley
laughing

Dragons.Now lets talk bigfoot,lochness,and the six headed..............

oh.Never mind!

the Darkone
Moses was talking about Jesus and later on there was [prophecy of the coming Elijah. And since Jesus is God the second head of the Trinity who knows his father he created everything for his father.

Also their was a prophecy coming of a prophet like him, most scholars believe it's Elijah, Elijah is one of the greatest prophets to every live and following the Bible he is coming back with Enoch before the second coming of Jesus which is prophecy. The Bible never talks or refers to Mohammad even though he is a decedent of Ishmael who is the son of Abraham.

Thundar
Originally posted by the Darkone
Moses was talking about Jesus and later on there was

That's interesting Darkone, I've never actually heard of that interpretation. I've always thought that the later prophecy was referring to more likely a second Moses or possible David. The bible does say though something along the lines of "and Elijah came first" so who knows, you could indeed be correct.

Prophecy is extremely difficult to determine, and is usually only recognized as being such(by man of course) after the prophecy has been fulfilled. I'd take a stab at saying that even the prophets really don't know what or who it is their prophecying about, seeing as how the words that come out of their mouths are really God's, not theirs.

the Darkone
Originally posted by Thundar
That's interesting Darkone, I've never actually heard of that interpretation. I've always thought that the later prophecy was referring to more likely a second Moses or possible David. The bible does say though something along the lines of "and Elijah came first" so who knows, you could indeed be correct.

Prophecy is extremely difficult to determine, and is usually only recognized as being such(by man of course) after the prophecy has been fulfilled. I'd take a stab at saying that even the prophets really don't know what or who it is their prophecying about, seeing as how the words that come out of their mouths are really God's, not theirs.


Look at this Thundar in John gospel Jesus even talks about Elijah is to come back first before the son of man second coming. Most scholars believe that it will be Enoch and Elijah since the Bible tells us that they never die and went to paradise alive.

Also there is prophecy of John the Baptist the for runner for Christ/Jesus, John the Baptist is Elijah in spirit. Elijah is one of the boldest of all the prophets, challenging Ba'al priest and stright embarrest the hell out of them and then killed them.

the Darkone
Originally posted by Thundar

Prophecy is extremely difficult to determine, and is usually only recognized as being such(by man of course) after the prophecy has been fulfilled. I'd take a stab at saying that even the prophets really don't know what or who it is their prophecying about, seeing as how the words that come out of their mouths are really God's, not theirs.

I agree prophecy is hard to determine, but you search the scripture it's there, but it does take alot of reading. Elijah is one of the baddest prophets ever in the bible in a good way if you now what I mean wink, read 1 and 2nd Kings, and references in 2nd chronicles and Malachi.

the Darkone
Originally posted by Regret
Then, doesn't Brigham Young and his experiences with the LDS not appear to be more than coincidence? Or do these theologians draw the line at someone that doesn't follow their dogmatic traditions? no

Nellinator
Originally posted by Regret
Then, doesn't Brigham Young and his experiences with the LDS not appear to be more than coincidence? Or do these theologians draw the line at someone that doesn't follow their dogmatic traditions?
Deuteronomy 34:10-11
And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, in all the signs and the wonders, which the LORD sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land...

According the Biblical description, Brigham Young does not fit. However, Jesus does.

Jesus knew God face to face, Jesus worked miracles. Elijah also fits this because of his ascension which is interesting when considering that John the Baptist was the fulfillment of the Elijah prophecy.

Another similarity is that Moses came and gave the Law and Jesus fulfilled it, so that is very connected.

the Darkone
Originally posted by Nellinator
Deuteronomy 34:10-11
And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, in all the signs and the wonders, which the LORD sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land...

According the Biblical description, Brigham Young does not fit. However, Jesus does.

Jesus knew God face to face, Jesus worked miracles. Elijah also fits this because of his ascension which is interesting when considering that John the Baptist was the fulfillment of the Elijah prophecy.

Another similarity is that Moses came and gave the Law and Jesus fulfilled it, so that is very connected.

thumb up exactly.

Regret
Originally posted by Nellinator
Deuteronomy 34:10-11
And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, in all the signs and the wonders, which the LORD sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land...

According the Biblical description, Brigham Young does not fit. However, Jesus does.

Jesus knew God face to face, Jesus worked miracles. Elijah also fits this because of his ascension which is interesting when considering that John the Baptist was the fulfillment of the Elijah prophecy.

Another similarity is that Moses came and gave the Law and Jesus fulfilled it, so that is very connected. Let's examine the statements in that verse:Whom the LORD knew face to faceIn all the signs and the wonders, which the LORD sent him to do in the land of Egypt to PharaohWhich signs and wonders did Jesus do in the land of Egypt to the Pharaoh? Did God know Christ face to face? I thought they were the same person according to Trinitarian Dogma.

The prophecy is not to connectedness, only to "like" one another. Also, you are forgetting my original statement:
Originally posted by Regret
The LDS believe this may have been Christ, due to his expounding on the Law of Moses.

We also believe it possibly was a reference to Brigham Young and the expelling of the LDS from the United States and the Trek west to Utah. I have never stated that it was or was not anyone. I just stated the possibility. And Deuteronomy 34 is not stating what is required of the term "like" in the prophecies of a future "prophet". I also believe it possible that the prophecy could be layered.

I have slight issue with a Trinitarian holding the belief that the prophecy refers to Christ due to the following portion of it:This verse threatens Trinitarian dogma. Was Christ (God) then raised up like unto Moses?

I believe that Christ is the prophet spoken of, but I believe that existence and prophecy are repetitive. The Earth died and was resurrected with the flood, Baptism in general, Abraham and Isaac on the Mountain, general sacrifice, sacrament, Joseph requiring Benjamin as a sacrifice for the salvation of the Tribe of Israel, etc. all symbolic representation of Christ's sacrifice. Many other Gospel concepts may also be viewed as repeatedly symbolized in the Bible. I also believe in symmetry of history, or a mirroring effect around Christ. With various events coinciding in some manner around the greatest event in Christian theology. Given this, another symbol is not unexpected.

Nellinator
I never said that you were wrong, just that Bringham Young doesn't fit. And as I admitted it could apply to others (well Elijah is pretty much the only other), just not Young. Also notice that the land of Egypt is not attached to the likeness of Moses, only the existence of miracles. Another thing to consider is that Moses never lead the Hebrews to the promised land, Joshua did, which makes it different than Bringham Young as well.

I'm not Trinitarian perse. I have stated before that I follow a modalic or Sabellenistic view of the Trinity.

God and Jesus would know each other face to face (the whole seated at the right hand thing). Elijah as well considering his ascension and the transfiguration...

And yes, there are repetitive themes, however, prophets seem very different.

Regret
Originally posted by Nellinator
I never said that you were wrong, just that Bringham Young doesn't fit. And as I admitted it could apply to others (well Elijah is pretty much the only other), just not Young. Also notice that the land of Egypt is not attached to the likeness of Moses, only the existence of miracles. Another thing to consider is that Moses never lead the Hebrews to the promised land, Joshua did, which makes it different than Bringham Young as well.

...

God and Jesus would know each other face to face (the whole seated at the right hand thing). Elijah as well considering his ascension and the transfiguration...

And yes, there are repetitive themes, however, prophets seem very different. Then, I fail to see how Brigham Young could not be considered like Moses. There are miracles tied to him. Also, he is, by historians often referred to as like Moses. A few nicknames given by historians are these:"The American Moses""The Modern Moses""The Mormon Moses"Regardless of the beliefs people have about the prophecy, historians compare the two and consider them to be "alike" in many ways.

There are miracles tied with Brigham Young, here are a couple:

The miracle of the gulls - Seagulls miraculously saved the 1848 crops by eating thousands of insects that were devouring their fields. Various healingsHis succession - When Young testified of the power and authority of the Twelve Apostles, many in the congregation recorded that Brigham Young's voice took on the sound of Joseph Smith's voice and that Brigham Young's face also appeared as the face of Joseph Smith.I don't know if he did or did not know God face to face. For me, it is not beyond possibility.

From an unbiased position how does he not fit? If you accept that the miracles I stated occurred, and acknowledge that Moses was supposed to lead the Israelites to the promised land (he only did not due to his failing), which I believe, you have to admit that you have not supplied sufficient evidence to threaten the possibility.

Originally posted by Nellinator
I'm not Trinitarian perse. I have stated before that I follow a modalic or Sabellenistic view of the Trinity.
I apologize, I had believed you were Catholic as to your view of Trinitarian Dogma.

debbiejo
Originally posted by muslimscholar
I read that in the bible it says there will be a prophet that will be like Moses and Christians believe it is Jesus? No, it won't be Jesus. I think you're referring to the End Times prophecies where it says in the latter days two wittiness will come and bring down fire from the sky. Many people believe that these two people could be Elijah and Moses. They will eventually be killed and then resurrect and then descend to the sky and all the world will know they were from god. Others believe that this is more metaphorical meaning that the men actually represent the Law as in the OT and the 10 commandments, and the Spirit Of Prophecy pointing to Jesus meaning the NT. They being dressed in sack cloth some believe refers to the Bible not being read and has become of Poor use.

Regret
Originally posted by debbiejo
No, it won't be Jesus. I think you're referring to the End Times prophecies where it says in the latter days two wittiness will come and bring down fire from the sky. Many people believe that these two people could be Elijah and Moses. They will eventually be killed and then resurrect and then descend to the sky and all the world will know they were from god. Others believe that this is more metaphorical meaning that the men actually represent the Law as in the OT and the 10 commandments, and the Spirit Of Prophecy pointing to Jesus meaning the NT. They being dressed in sack cloth some believe refers to the Bible not being read and has become of Poor use. Here is the prophecy to which he is referencing:

Joseph_Kerr
Let's get back on track (what Islam says and not what Mormonism says wink ).

Deuteronomy 18:15-18 is the scripture discussed. God promises Moses, "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their bretheren, and will put my words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him" (v. 18). Muslims believe this prophecy is fulfilled in Muhammad, as the Qur'an claims when it refers to "the unletterd Prophet , Whom they find mentioned in their own (Sriptures), in the Law and the Gospels" (7:157).

However, this prophecy could not be a reference to Muhammad for several reasons, First, it is clear that the term "brethren" means fellow Israelites. For the Jewish Levites wre told in the same passage that "they shall have no in heritance among their brethren" (v.2).

Second, since the term "brethren" refers to Israel, not to their Arab antagonists, why would God raise up for Israel a prophet from their enemies?

Third, elsewhere in this book the term "brethren" also means fellow Israelites, not foreigners. God told the Jews to chose a king "from among your brethren," not a "foreigner" (Deut. 17:15). Israel never chose a non-Jewish king.

Fourth, Muhammad came from Ishmael, as even Muslims adit, and heirs to the Jewish throne came from Isaac. According to the Torah, when Abraham prayed, "oh that Ishmael might live before You!" God answered emphatically, "My covenant I will establish with Isaac" (Gen 17:21). Later God repeated, "In Isaac your seed shall be called" (Gen. 21:12).

Fifth, the Qur'an itself states that the prophetic line came through Isaac, not Ishmael: "And We bestowed on him Isaac and Jacob, and We established the Prophethood and the Scripture among his seed" (29:27). The Muslim scholar Yusef Ali adds the word "Abraham" and changes the meaning as follows: "We gave (Abraham) Issac and Jacob, and ordained Among his progeny Prophethood And Revelation." By adding Abraham, the father if Ishmael, he can include Muhammad, a descendant of Ishmael, in the prophetic line! But Abraham's name is not found in the Arabic text of the Qu'ran, which Muslims consider to be perfectly preserved.

Sixth, according to the earliest authentic documents, Jesus, not Muhammad, completely fulfilled this verse, since he was from among his Jewish brethren (cf. Gal. 4:4). He also fulfilled Deuteronomy 18:18 perfectly: "He shall speak to them all that I command Him." Jesus said "I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things" (John 8:28). And, "I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak" (John 12:49). He called himself a "prophet" (Luke 13:33), and the people considered him a prophet (Matt. 21:11; Luke 7:16; 24:19; John 4:19; 6:14; 7:40; 9:17). As the Son of God, Jesus was prophet (speaking to men for God), priest (Heb 7-10, speaking to God form men), and kind (reigning over men for God, Rev. 19-20).

Finally, there are other characteristics of the "Prophet" to come that fit only Jesus, not Muhammad. These include things like speaking with God "face to face" and performing "signs and wonders," which Muhammad admitted he did not so.

Joseph_Kerr
The next verse he will want to throw at me is Deuteronomy 33:2
"He said, "The LORD came from Sinai, And dawned on them from Seir; He shone forth from Mount Paran, And He came from the midst of ten thousand holy ones; At His right hand there was flashing lightning for them. "

Many Islamic scholars believe that this verse predicts three separate visitations of God: one on "Sinai" to Moses, another to "Seir" through Jesus, and a third in "Paran" (Arabia) through Muhammad who came to Mecca with an army of "ten thousand".

However, this contention can be easily answered by looking a a map of the area. Paran and Seir are near Egypt in the Sinai peninsula (cf. Gen. 14:6; Num. 10:12; 12:16-13:3; Deut 1:1), not in Palestine where Jesus ministered. Nor was Paran near Mecca, but hundreds of miles away in southern Palestine in the northeastern Sinai.

Furthermore, this verse is speaking the the "Lord" coming, not Muhammad. And the Lord is coming with "ten thousand saints," not ten shousand soldiers, as Muhammad did. There is no basis in this text for the Muslim contention that it is a prediction of Muhammad.

Finally, this prophecy is said to be one "with which Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death" (Deut. 33:1). If it were a prediction about Islam, which has been a constanct enemy of Israel, it could scarcely have been a blessing to Israel. In fat the chapter goes on to pronounce a blessing on each of the tribes of Israel by God, who "will thrust out the enemy" (v. 27).

Joseph_Kerr
Deuteronomy 34:10
"Since that time no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,"

Muslims argue that this proves that the predicted prophet could not be an Israelite but was Muhammad instead.

In response several things should be noted. First, the "since" means since Moses' death up until the time this last chapter was written, probably by Joshua. Even if Deuteronomy were written much later, as some critics believe, it still was composed many centuries before the time of Christ and, therefore, would not eliminate him.

Second, Jesus was the perfect fulfillment of this prediction of the prophet to come, not Muhammad (see my comments on
Deut. 18:15-18).

Third, this could not refer to Muhammad, since the prophet to come was like Moses who did "all the signs and wonders which the Lord sent" (Deut 34:11). Muhammad by his own confession did not perform signs and wonders like Moses and Jesus did (see 2:118; 3:183). Finally, the prophet to come was like Moses who spoke to God "face to face" (Deut. 34:10). Muhammad never even claimed to speak to God directly but got his revelations through an angel (see 25:32; 17:105). Jesus, on the other hand, like Moses, was a direct mediator (1 Tim. 2:5; Heb 9:150 who comunicated directly with God (cf. John 1:18; 12:39; 17). Thus, the prediction could not have referred to Muhammad, as many Muslims claim.

the Darkone
Originally posted by Joseph_Kerr
Deuteronomy 34:10
"Since that time no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,"

Muslims argue that this proves that the predicted prophet could not be an Israelite but was Muhammad instead.

In response several things should be noted. First, the "since" means since Moses' death up until the time this last chapter was written, probably by Joshua. Even if Deuteronomy were written much later, as some critics believe, it still was composed many centuries before the time of Christ and, therefore, would not eliminate him.

Second, Jesus was the perfect fulfillment of this prediction of the prophet to come, not Muhammad (see my comments on
Deut. 18:15-18).

Third, this could not refer to Muhammad, since the prophet to come was like Moses who did "all the signs and wonders which the Lord sent" (Deut 34:11). Muhammad by his own confession did not perform signs and wonders like Moses and Jesus did (see 2:118; 3:183). Finally, the prophet to come was like Moses who spoke to God "face to face" (Deut. 34:10). Muhammad never even claimed to speak to God directly but got his revelations through an angel (see 25:32; 17:105). Jesus, on the other hand, like Moses, was a direct mediator (1 Tim. 2:5; Heb 9:150 who comunicated directly with God (cf. John 1:18; 12:39; 17). Thus, the prediction could not have referred to Muhammad, as many Muslims claim.


thumb up exactly.

the Darkone
Originally posted by Joseph_Kerr
The next verse he will want to throw at me is Deuteronomy 33:2
"He said, "The LORD came from Sinai, And dawned on them from Seir; He shone forth from Mount Paran, And He came from the midst of ten thousand holy ones; At His right hand there was flashing lightning for them. "

Many Islamic scholars believe that this verse predicts three separate visitations of God: one on "Sinai" to Moses, another to "Seir" through Jesus, and a third in "Paran" (Arabia) through Muhammad who came to Mecca with an army of "ten thousand".

However, this contention can be easily answered by looking a a map of the area. Paran and Seir are near Egypt in the Sinai peninsula (cf. Gen. 14:6; Num. 10:12; 12:16-13:3; Deut 1:1), not in Palestine where Jesus ministered. Nor was Paran near Mecca, but hundreds of miles away in southern Palestine in the northeastern Sinai.

Furthermore, this verse is speaking the the "Lord" coming, not Muhammad. And the Lord is coming with "ten thousand saints," not ten shousand soldiers, as Muhammad did. There is no basis in this text for the Muslim contention that it is a prediction of Muhammad.

Finally, this prophecy is said to be one "with which Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death" (Deut. 33:1). If it were a prediction about Islam, which has been a constanct enemy of Israel, it could scarcely have been a blessing to Israel. In fat the chapter goes on to pronounce a blessing on each of the tribes of Israel by God, who "will thrust out the enemy" (v. 27).

very well put.

johannes
The point muslimscholar is getting to is that the Bible predicts Mohammed.
Originally posted by muslimscholar
it does tho and you know

no, it doesnt, first there will be the false prophets, and the proof is they died a normal death as the bible foretold. christians started to worship their prophet and muslims have build a temple on top of Mo Hammed's grave which he strongly advised not to do.
the real prophet is still to come and he wont die, but bring immortallity.

muslimscholar
Originally posted by johannes
The point muslimscholar is getting to is that the Bible predicts Mohammed.


no, it doesnt, first there will be the false prophets, and the proof is they died a normal death as the bible foretold. christians started to worship their prophet and muslims have build a temple on top of Mo Hammed's grave which he strongly advised not to do.
the real prophet is still to come and he wont die, but bring immortallity.

muslims dont build temples for a start

which prophet is yet to come
and wont die is it not true for all other prophets have died? for prophets are humans?

johannes
Originally posted by muslimscholar
muslims dont build temples for a start

which prophet is yet to come
and wont die is it not true for all other prophets have died? for prophets are humans?
would you prefer; a mosque was build on his grave.
christians also have build a "tower" on the grave of Jesus, a spiritual tower same as muslems.
yes all prophets die untill the last prophet comes.

the Darkone
Mohammed is not perdicted in the Bible stop it already, he counted tie Elijah foot strap, for one he is not part of 12 twelve tribes of israel, and pretty much all the prophets came out the tribes of Israel. Mohammed was a warlord killing 500 people, and child molester, haveing a 9 year old wife, the hell.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by the Darkone
Mohammed was a warlord killing 500 people, and child molester, haveing a 9 year old wife, the hell.

And Moses was a merciless warlord who killed the entire population of Canan. What's your point.

I'm sure sure he raped a few kids too.

the Darkone
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
And Moses was a merciless warlord who killed the entire population of Canan. What's your point.

uh-no, I'm sure sure he raped a few kids too.


God told him too, and Canan was immoral. Canan where into sexual perversions, idolatry's, fornication's, they where Sodom and Gomorrah. Mohamed did it to be a dictator a big difference between what Moses did.

SC stick to comics.

Goddess Kali
Originally posted by the Darkone
God told him too, and Canan was immoral. Canan where into sexual perversions, idolatry's, fornication's, they where Sodom and Gomorrah. Mohamed did it to be a dictator a big difference between what Moses did.

SC stick to comics.


So it's okay to murder a bunch of homosexuals ?


Wow your God is so loving roll eyes (sarcastic) ....your religion is twisted, I am glad I renounced Christianity a long time ago

the Darkone
Originally posted by Goddess Kali
So it's okay to murder a bunch of homosexuals ?


Wow your God is so loving roll eyes (sarcastic) ....your religion is twisted, I am glad I renounced Christianity a long time ago


To god it's unnatural, he made the laws I didn't. God loves the homosexual but not there sin, it's there sin that separates them from God. And that's not the only reason they where worshiping g other gods, Canan basically broke all ten commandments.

Goddess Kali
Originally posted by the Darkone
To god it's unnatural, he made the laws I didn't. God loves the homosexual but not there sin, it's there sin that separates them from God. And that's not the only reason they where worshiping g other gods, Canan basically broke all ten commandments.


Okay so it's okay to commit genocide against an entire nation because:


1) They are homosexuals
2) They worship other Gods



erm



Sorry, your God impresses me not...he's rather prejudice and immature. And if God sees homosexuality as unnatural, then why does he allow the animals to enact homosexuality ?

the Darkone
God loves ever body but not there sin, you are trying to compare humans that have a soul as where animals don't. You reject God because you want to live your sinful life, and he will let you doesn't hold anybody back from what they want, but it comes at a price.

I as a Christian believe in the Bible 100%, and try to live a good Christian life to the that best I can with the help of God, but I am not God I didn't write laws and I don't judge that's not my job, I don't want nobody to be left behind and be lost, God wrote the laws I didn't; you take it up with him when every you see him, doers of sexual immortality, sexual pervasion, idolatry, adultery, drunks, sources (drug dealers), magic users will not enter the Kingdom of heaven, everybody else goes to hell where you are by yourself suffering until judgment then you are cast into the lake of fire for all eternity with Satan, the Beast, false prophet, false teachers workers of inequity.

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