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Ok we have got ranks for all super heroes in general what about Martial artists. Ok let me suggest a ranking.

Current Hierarchy

Cosmic Tier: (Transcendent Martial Artists)
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis, Thanos

Uber Tier: (Unearthly Martial Artists)
Kirigi (DC), Mandarin, Moondragon, O-Sensei, Ogun, Stick, Temugin

Top Tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman, Black Canary, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Daredevil, Elektra, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Snake-Eyes, Storm Shadow, Taskmaster, Wolverine

Second Tier: (Master Martial Artists)
Adam Warlock, Agent X, Azrael, Backlash, Black Panther, Black Widow, Bullseye, Cable, Captain Mar-Vell, Champion of the Universe, Cheshire, Crossbones, Daken, David Cain, Deadpool, Deathstroke, Donatello, Echo, Eric Killmonger, Gorgon (Tomi Shishido), Green Arrow, Grifter, Jason Blood, Judomaster (Hadley Jagger), Karnak, Lady Deathstrike, Leonardo, Merlyn (DC), Michaelangelo, Midnight Sun, Mr Sensitive, Natas, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Prometheus, Puck, Ra's al Ghul, Raphael, Ravager, Red Hood, Red Skull, Silver Samurai, Steel Serpent, Stone, Talia al Ghul, Twelve Brothers in Silk, White Tiger (Angela del Toro), Wildcat (Ted Grant), Winter Soldier, Wonder Woman, Vandal Savage, X-23

Third Tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists)
Ares, Arsenal, Bane, Beta Ray Bill, Black Bolt, Black Knight (Dane Whitman), Blade, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Colleen Wing, Damian Wayne, Doctor Mid-Nite, Doctor Strange, Domino, Donna Troy, Drax, Grendel (Hunter Rose), Hawkeye, Hercules, Huntress, Katana, KGBeast, Kingpin, Lady Vic, Loki, Matsu'o Tsurayaba, Midnighter, Mister America (Tex Thomson), Mister Terrific, Mockingbird, Moon Knight, Namor, Night Thrasher, Nightcrawler, Omega Red, Onyx, Psylocke, Punisher, The Question, Revanche, Robin (Tim Drake), Sabretooth, Shadowcat, Shatterstar, Shrike IV (Boone), Speedy (Mia Dearden), Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew), Stacy X, Terry McGinnis, Thena, Thor, US Agent, V, Viper (Madame Hydra), Wild Child, Wong

Fourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artists)
Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Batwoman, Black Cat, Blink, Blue Devil, Boom Boom, Cannonball, Carol Danvers, Catwoman, Colossus, Cyclops, Falcon, Gambit, Hawkgirl, Hawkman, Iron-Man, Jamie Madrox, Jubilee, Misty Knight, Mystique, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Superman, Tarantula, Thing, Zauriel

Accomplished Fighter: (Little formal training/Some Skill)
Apocalypse, Beast, Grace Choi, Hulk, Invisible Woman, Luke Cage, Monet St. Croix, Spider-Man, Strong Guy


-----------------------------------

US Agent should be second tier IMO, seeing as he managed to batter Hawkeye who was atleast low top/high second.

Originally posted by CasanoVa
US Agent should be second tier IMO, seeing as he managed to batter Hawkeye who was atleast low top/high second.

That might be because Hawkeye doesnt have that much durability. Remember we are talking skill here.

I think Spiderman can beat Shang Chi but nor because of his knowledge of fighting but because of his superhuman stats.

US Agent could be second tier, and Punisher should be third.

Throw in Danny Rand with Shang Chi, and put T'Challa in the class right below them.

Batman should be up there with Cap.

Originally posted by Alfheim
That might be because Hawkeye doesnt have that much durability. Remember we are talking skill here.

I think Spiderman can beat Shang Chi but nor because of his knowledge of fighting but because of his superhuman stats.

Hawkeye was wearing armour at the time actually, have you seen the fight? He's plenty skillfull.

Take a look:


http://herochat.com/forum/index.php/topic,119056.0.html

Originally posted by Soljer
US Agent could be second tier, and Punisher should be third.

Throw in Danny Rand with Shang Chi, and put T'Challa in the class right below them.

How the hell is Punisher third tier? Tchalla is second tier

Originally posted by CasanoVa
Hawkeye was wearing armour at the time actually, have you seen the fight? He's plenty skillfull.

Take a look:


http://herochat.com/forum/index.php/topic,119056.0.html

Ok second tier its is.

Originally posted by Alfheim
How the hell is Punisher third tier? Tchalla is second tier



Ok second tier its is.

Punisher is second tier IMO, and T'Challa is definetly first tier.

Originally posted by CasanoVa
Punisher is second tier IMO, and T'Challa is definetly first tier.

Exactly.

Couldn't this just go into the regular tier thread? It's basically just creating a needless sub-category for something we're already documenting.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Couldn't this just go into the regular tier thread? It's basically just creating a needless sub-category for something we're already documenting.

Well you're the mod. But as far as I can see this is something different. the other thread is ranking based on their overall powers. This is ranking specfically for MA skill.

For example Spiderman is highier in the other rankign but is bottom on this.

Fair enough. Proceed.

midnight sun is probably cosmic tier

KarateKid for CosmicTier

Cosmic tier: (Can damage class100s with no problem)
Mantis, Gamora, Midnight Sun, Karate Kid

Uber tier: (Better than the greatest martial artists)
Stick, Gorgon

Top tier: (Are usually given the title "is one of the greatest martial artists in the world."
Cap, DD, Wolverine, Shang Chi, Black Panther, Batman, Deadpool, Nightwing, Red Hood, Robin, Green Arrow, Taskmaster, Elecktra (not sure about this one), Kingpin, Shin Kuei, Iron Fist

Second tier: (Close behind the best)
Punisher, Black Widow, USA Agent, Nick Fury, Azarel (mainly brute strength rather than skill), Bullseye, Moon Knight

Third tier: (Has MA training and experience, but not particularly good.....meh!)
Agents of Shield

Accomplished fighter: (May have alot of experience but very little formal training.
Spiderman, Luke Cage, Beast

By the way who is Midnight Sun did he get reincarnated by the Kree to fight the surfer?

Are they in order? as in going from the best (from the left) to the worst (to the right).

Originally posted by CasanoVa
Are they in order? as in going from the best (from the left) to the worst (to the right).

Well no not from left to right. Top to bottom is in order. In all fairness that would be really difficult to do for some of them.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Cosmic tier: (Can damage class100s with no problem)
Mantis, Gamora, Midnight Sun, Karate Kid

Uber tier: (Better than the greatest martial artists)
Stick, Gorgon

Top tier: (Are usually given the title "is one of the greatest martial artists in the world."
Cap, DD, Wolverine, Shang Chi, Black Panther, Batman, Deadpool, Nightwing, Red Hood, Robin, Green Arrow, Taskmaster, Elecktra (not sure about this one), Kingpin, Shin Kuei, Iron Fist

Second tier: (Close behind the best)
Punisher, Black Widow, USA Agent, Nick Fury, Azarel (mainly brute strength rather than skill), Bullseye, Moon Knight

Third tier: (Has MA training and experience, but not particularly good.....meh!)
Agents of Shield

Accomplished fighter: (May have alot of experience but very little formal training.
Spiderman, Luke Cage, Beast

By the way who is Midnight Sun did he get reincarnated by the Kree to fight the surfer?


Um Robin is nowheere near tier one I'd say he's second tier same with Red hood and Green arrow unless your talking about Conner Hawke.

Black Canary and Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) should both be tier 1 however

Originally posted by Devil Lance

Um Robin is nowheere near tier one I'd say he's second tier same with Red hood and Green arrow unless your talking about Conner Hawke.

Black Canary and Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) should both be tier 1 however

hey im no DC expert but im quite sure Red Hood is top tier.

Originally posted by Alfheim
hey im no DC expert but im quite sure Red Hood is top tier.

I agree with DL, Ollie is a good MA not a great one, in pure hand to hand he wouldn't be that high. Also with Red Hood, who is pretty much a less skilled more brutal Nightwing.

Originally posted by Alfheim
hey im no DC expert but im quite sure Red Hood is top tier.

no he isn't any Top Tier MA would own him

not sure sure about shang hi he was able to hang in there with thing and break down steel downs, and lets not forget his chi attack. not so sure he's in uber tier then again he's above the rest in the catagorty that his in in.


Karnak (with his abilities he should be in Top tier, but he seems more second tier)

Red skrull (same class as Captain America)

Champion of the Universe (cosmic tier)

Tasksmaster, where would he be? hes copied so many abilities and knows most of thier moves so.

Cosmic tier: (Can damage class100s with no problem)
Mantis, Gamora, Midnight Sun, Karate Kid

Uber tier: (Better than the greatest martial artists)
Stick, Gorgon, Midnighter, Deathstroke (maybe, not sure).

Top tier: (Are usually given the title "is one of the greatest martial artists in the world."
Cap, DD, Wolverine, Shang Chi, Black Panther, Batman, Deadpool, Nightwing, Red Hood, Robin, Green Arrow, Taskmaster, Elecktra (not sure about this one), Kingpin, Shin Kuei, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Batgirl, Conner Hawke

Second tier: (Close behind the best)
Punisher, Black Widow, USA Agent, Nick Fury, Azarel (mainly brute strength rather than skill), Bullseye, Moon Knight, Sabretooth, Night Thrasher (is very good but he does use a hyrdraulic suit...so thats cheating a bit)

Third tier: (Has MA training and experience, but not particularly good.....meh!)
Agents of Shield

Accomplished fighter: (May have alot of experience but very little formal training.
Spiderman, Luke Cage, Beast

Originally posted by HigH ScholaR
Tasksmaster, where woud he be? hes copied so many abilities and knows most of thier moves so.

He should be TopTier at least but his showings tend to be low

maybe we should post soem feats to back up where we position them in the list?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
He should be TopTier at least but his showings tend to be low

yeah thats the probably most of MA's SHOULD be in one place knowing their skills but their showings in comics counters it.

Fury definetly is top tier, as is Bullseye. I don't think Deathstroke is uber tier either, purely based on skill I reckon he'd be high tier.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
He should be TopTier at least but his showings tend to be low

Taskmaster seems to be the Apocalypse of the street levelers ie jobs

Originally posted by HigH ScholaR
maybe we should post soem feats to back up where we position them in the list?

Well somebody gave me a link for US agent so I put him in second tier. Yeah that would be a good idea especilaly for some of the DC MAs, but I wont be posting anyting im going now and probably wont be back till Monday.

Originally posted by CasanoVa
Fury definetly is top tier, as is Bullseye. I don't think Deathstroke is uber tier either, purely based on skill I reckon he'd be high tier.

Bullseye has be beaten by Punisher pretty badly but then again Bullseye has beaten Elecktra on a regular basis. I was thinking of making Punisher top tier.

Oh yeah I added Night Thrasher to the list above.

Originally posted by Devil Lance
no he isn't any Top Tier MA would own him

Are you kidding Red Hood beats up Nightwing on a regular basis.

Originally posted by CasanoVa
I agree with DL, Ollie is a good MA not a great one, in pure hand to hand he wouldn't be that high. Also with Red Hood, who is pretty much a less skilled more brutal Nightwing.

Actually I was going to be GA on the bottom he seems to be a brawler but people on this forum say there are different verion,s and one was very skill anyway im a bit confused now. Im pretty sure Red Hood is not less skilled. Red Hood owned Nightwing as Robin.

What about Cyclops, I mean he did beat six man once with his eye's closed?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Cosmic tier: (Can damage class100s with no problem)
Mantis, Gamora, Midnight Sun, Karate Kid

Uber tier: (Better than the greatest martial artists)
Stick, Gorgon, Midnighter, Deathstroke (maybe, not sure).

Top tier: (Are usually given the title "is one of the greatest martial artists in the world."
Cap, DD, Wolverine, Shang Chi, Black Panther, Batman, Deadpool, Nightwing, Red Hood, Robin, Green Arrow, Taskmaster, Elecktra (not sure about this one), Kingpin, Shin Kuei, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Batgirl, Conner Hawke

Second tier: (Close behind the best)
Punisher, Black Widow, USA Agent, Nick Fury, Azarel (mainly brute strength rather than skill), Bullseye, Moon Knight, Sabretooth, Night Thrasher (is very good but he does use a hyrdraulic suit...so thats cheating a bit)

Third tier: (Has MA training and experience, but not particularly good.....meh!)
Agents of Shield

Accomplished fighter: (May have alot of experience but very little formal training.
Spiderman, Luke Cage, Beast

If we're talking skill wise, i dont think Deathstroke is more skilled than Cap, DD, Bats, Fist (first tier ppl).

Black Panther, Deadpool, Red Hood should all be 2nd tier imo. They just arent as skilled as the rest of the people there.

Id also put Fury in the top tier.

Deathstroke is definitely second tier. He beats the shit out of people because he's enhanced like crazy, but his actual SKILL is a notch below the likes of Batman and Captain America.

Black Panther, Deadpool, and Deathstroke, should all be second tier. There is NO WAY the Punisher should be top tier.

Nick Fury should be in the top.

good thread, Alf

Deadpool is definitely a top tier, just because he abuses his healing power doesn't mean he isn't a very skilled martial artist. He went toe to toe with Killmonger, who beat T'challa, without relying on his healing factor.

Green Arrow shouldn't be moved, since 'One year later' he's become a beast. He's just as well trained as Deathstroke now, if not better. He's mastered the 'good' and the 'bad' techniques.

Azrael is a very skilled fighter, and he doesn't rely only on his brute strength, his strength wasn't even that amazing until the last 20 issues or so of his series (Out of 100) Keep him where he is but remove the disclaimer.

gorgon is not above top tier..........

Jason is Nightwings superior.


Cable should be in top-tier

Add Psylocke to the second tier list. Could possibly be low first tier if she used her telepathy to predict her opponents moves.

Black panther is top tier.

.

Originally posted by Soljer
.


Intead of just saying hes not, why dont you prove it, I believe I have, in the past, provided enought proof to show that he is.


Strange.

why is black panther consider a top tier martial artist again?

Originally posted by capt it up
why is black panther consider a top tier martial artist again?

Because, if you disagree, you're racist.

Please dont bring that lame ass excuse into this.........

Nobody has yet to prove anything yet

And honestly, what separates people from skill, when nearly each and every person mentioned in this thread has the ability to end the fight with one nerve strike.

Yeah, nobody thinks about dumb shit like that.


Being in Martial arts myself, any martial artist worth his weight will tell you the key to being a good martial artist is.....

Instinct>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Skill>>>>>Natural physical ability

Oh Oh OH, Instinct is the key to being a good martial artist, You can have all the physical ability in the world, or you can be like batman and mastered all 100+ styles, but you still have the ability to lose.

Why...?

Because in one instant, in one small second, his opponents Instinct will take over, he See's nothing, and everything at the same time, a blur of movements if you will, batman throws a punch, his opponent dodges, not intentionally, his vision is blurred, he is drunk with focus, he in many ways, knew it was coming, next thing you know, batman is on the ground from a single, well placed, nerve strike to the neck....

The fight lasted all of 5 seconds....(sorry for using batman batdude just trying to make a point)

Get away from the comic books for 5 seconds, stop thinking about all the scans, and feats and what not, because everybody on this list has lost, some multiple times, hell I can think of a few of those "Top Tier's" who have had their asses handed to them, verily.

You wanna make this list real, then don't sit here and say

"well this person has mastered all this, and that person knows all that"

Sure its important, but its not everything, a person who may only master two styles his entire life, may be a more capable fighter then a man who has mastered 10, why?

He has that natural fighter instinct.

Sorry for the rant, but I realize many people live or die by who has mastered this style, and how many fights have they won (never caring about how many they lost, blame it on the respect threads).

IMO, alot of those top Tiers, shouldn't be top Tiers, and maybe a few of those second tier, should be top.

Put Erick Killmonger top tier also, that guy is a freaking monster. Probably the most underrated martial artist in marvel.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Intead of just saying hes not, why dont you prove it, I believe I have, in the past, provided enought proof to show that he is.


Strange.

Im sorry but im backing up Apolloknight on this.


Originally posted by Soljer
Because, if you disagree, you're racist.

Please dont come with that crap. We were in a thread where Apolloknight showed two scans of BP out doing Wolverine in speed and you were still saying **** like Elecktra can beat BP.

I have noticed occasionaly you make statements without backing them up.

Some people can't take a ****ing joke.

Alfheim and Reggie for example

Originally posted by CasanoVa
Some people can't take a ****ing joke.

Alfheim and Reggie for example

What joke? According to Soljer BP is not a top tier MA thats crap.

Originally posted by Alfheim
What joke? According to Soljer BP is not a top tier MA thats crap.

You didn't think he was top tier either until you were persuaded otherwise, so it's hardly crap seeing as you believed it yourself. The joke was that if you disagree with Black Panther fans and say he isn't top tier, you are racist.

Did you not see that was light humoured? That if he had meant to prove that Black Panther wasn't top tier seriously he would do so rather than make jokes?

Originally posted by CasanoVa
You didn't think he was top tier either until you were persuaded otherwise, so it's hardly crap seeing as you believed it yourself.


Huh? The point is this Apolloknight provided evidence to prove that BP is top tier, but despite this Soljer keeps laughing at the evidence provided and given none.....thats crap.

Originally posted by CasanoVa

The joke was that if you disagree with Black Panther fans and say he isn't top tier, you are racist. Did you not see that was light humoured?





Well did you see what Soljer said before. Apolloknight said that BP was top tier and Soljer laughed.

Originally posted by CasanoVa

That if he had meant to prove that Black Panther wasn't top tier seriously he would do so rather than make jokes?


Well no he did this on another thread, he kept saying BP wasnt top tier and he didnt provide any evidence and hes doing it again.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Put Erick Killmonger top tier also, that guy is a freaking monster. Probably the most underrated martial artist in marvel.

QFMFT

Originally posted by CasanoVa
You didn't think he was top tier either until you were persuaded otherwise, so it's hardly crap seeing as you believed it yourself. The joke was that if you disagree with Black Panther fans and say he isn't top tier, you are racist.

Did you not see that was light humoured? That if he had meant to prove that Black Panther wasn't top tier seriously he would do so rather than make jokes?


I'm tempted to waste my time..................tempted.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
I'm tempted to waste my time..................tempted.

Are you really Reggie?

Originally posted by CasanoVa
Are you really Reggie?

So you said its a joke when someone downplays panther, the whole "Im a racist thing"

Is this also a joke I shall deal with, you know the whole, if you defend Black panther you must be "Hudlin"

Is that now a joke.

This is dumb.

Do you see how much of each others time we wasted!? do you see how stupid this has become!?

Soljer and jordalism said black panther wasn't top tier.

I and affiem said he is.

Soljer laughed.

I said prove it.

Soljer called himself a racist.

I said don't use that excuse, just prove he isn't.

Soljer never post again (like usual because he cant prove it)

And then me and you start.


This is dumb to me, I wanna debate comics, not opinions people cant prove.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
So you said its a joke when someone downplays panther, the whole "Im a racist thing"

Is this also a joke I shall deal with, you know the whole, if you defend Black panther you must be "Hudlin"

Is that now a joke.

This is dumb.

Do you see how much of each others time we wasted!? do you see how stupid this has become!?

Soljer and jordalism said black panther wasn't top tier.

I and affiem said he is.

Soljer laughed.

I said prove it.

Soljer called himself a racist.

I said don't use that excuse, just prove he isn't.

Soljer never post again (like usual because he cant prove it)

And then me and you start.


This is dumb to me, I wanna debate comics, not opinions people cant prove.

I didn't call you Hudlin, you just seem like a Reggie to me. I never said I didn't think BP wasn't a top tier, ask Alfheim, I said he SHOULD be top tier a few pages back actually.

Originally posted by CasanoVa
I didn't call you Hudlin, you just seem like a Reggie to me. I never said I didn't think BP wasn't a top tier, ask Alfheim, I said he SHOULD be top tier a few pages back actually.


And I seen that. Which is why I didn't ask for proof from you, because you know he's a top tier.

I asked for proof from other posters, and got ignorance.

But what you have to understand it, this is not the first time, there have been many other times also, and each time I get no proof and I provide all sorts.

Strange.

Entertaining to say the least. I'm glad everyone quotes apolloknight since he's been on my ignore list for so long now.

Also interesting how hard it is for people to take a joke. .

Look; T'Challa is good. No one is doubting that fact. He just doesn't have the feats to back up the pedestal you're trying to put him on.

Also; who the hell said I was laughing at what you posted? As mentioned, I've had you ignored for ages - I didn't even read what you'd posted. I laughed because, without reading, I knew exactly what you were saying.

"T'Challa could take Gamora in a fist fight! What are you talking about!?! He's the bestestest!" .

Also consider that perhaps I hadn't posted again because...I hadn't been on the forum. What a novel idea. That life would get in the way of precious KMC every now and again. Go to hell.

And, before I forget, Alfheim; Elektra can beat T'Challa.

Originally posted by Soljer
Because, if you disagree, you're racist.
oh ya I forgot.........lol

Originally posted by Alfheim
Im sorry but im backing up Apolloknight on this.




Please dont come with that crap. We were in a thread where Apolloknight showed two scans of BP out doing Wolverine in speed and you were still saying **** like Elecktra can beat BP.

I have noticed occasionaly you make statements without backing them up.

neither of those scanns showed black panther out doing wolverine in speed. It showed him taking wolverine by surprize. Those are two very different things........

deadpool is not that great in TERMS of martial arts IMO he got owned by The Cat (Shin) Who's in top tier.

Originally posted by HigH ScholaR
deadpool is not that great in TERMS of martial arts IMO he got owned by The Cat (Shin) Who's in top tier. dude, deadpool was all gaga-eyes about him....he just was unfocused...The Cat even said he'd get owned if they fought again....

deadpools...gay?

Originally posted by capt it up
deadpools...gay?
?????

Originally posted by capt it up
deadpools...gay?

No way, he's in love with Bea Arthur.

Originally posted by Nataku8188
No way, he's in love with Bea Arthur.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e301/SumerianWarlord/beaarthur.jpg

How is BP not top tier? He has been able to beat or keep up with IF, Cap, DD and the other top tiers listed.

Originally posted by AcousticDoc
How is BP not top tier? He has been able to beat or keep up with IF, Cap, DD and the other top tiers listed.

Maybe because he used herbs to keep in peak or enhanced human ability's, but I'm not sure.

I believe he should be up in the top tier list

Would Batman be cosmic then, having fought and either defeated or faired well against the likes of Grundy, Metallo, Mongul, Amazo, Hulk, Grodd, Hulk, Wonder Woman, Superman etc etc?

Originally posted by Brutacus
Maybe because he used herbs to keep in peak or enhanced human ability's, but I'm not sure.

I believe he should be up in the top tier list

If so, shouldn't we use the same excuse for the other top tiers? Cap has his super soldier serum, wolverine has his healing factor to prevent fatigue, DD can fight with 360 vision from his radar and IF can amp his natural abilities by using his chi. They should all be second tier then. Why only hold BP back because of enchanments from thier powers? Cause he's black?

Originally posted by AcousticDoc
If so, shouldn't we use the same excuse for the other top tiers? Cap has his super soldier serum, wolverine has his healing factor to prevent fatigue, DD can fight with 360 vision from his radar and IF can amp his natural abilities by using his chi. They should all be second tier then. Why only hold BP back because of enchanments from thier powers? Cause he's black?

This is about skill only.

RadarSense, SSS, HF and Chi don't come into play as far as I have gathered.

Originally posted by capt it up
deadpools...gay?


Well his fantasy is massaging Cable on a beach.......

Put Killmonger in top teir, Then somebody provide proof that BP isnt top tier, until then, hes top.

On another note.

Where do you guys think, Bane, Rah's al ghul, Cyclopes, "The Hand" and Red Skull should rank?

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Put Killmonger in top teir, Then somebody provide proof that BP isnt top tier, until then, hes top.

On another note.

Where do you guys think, Bane, Rah's al ghul, Cyclopes, "The Hand" and Red Skull should rank?

Top tier for Bane Rahs al ghul and Red Skull. Im not sure about Cyclops but apprently hes not bad H2H.

I think third tier for the hand eventhough their supposed to be ninjas Spiderman can beat hand ninjas up.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
This is about skill only.

RadarSense, SSS, HF and Chi don't come into play as far as I have gathered.

Chi defintely comes into play beacuse that is part of MA skill. Chi is utlised in alot of Chinese and Japnese MAs.

I think you can use people powers to an extent and I dont think you can seperate their physical stats entirely from skill since part of MA is training is increasing your speed and power.

Part of what makes Wolverine good is his mutant abilities but alot of it is skill so we can ignore that, the same could be said about DD's radar sense because he combines it very well with his MA, but of course Spiderman is bottom beacuse we know alot of his fighting skill is just his superhuman stats.

So I think powers can come into play if their powers are closely linked to their MA skill and they have had extensive MA training.

You probably need to clarify exactly how much powers can come into play, and how much the hierarchy you're making is based on skill. And apply that comparably to everyone in the list. Additionally whether weapons and tools are taken into account, in which case characters like the Green Arrows, with an abundance of trick arrows, would probably need to be listed higher than weaponless people.

Take the example of Deathstroke. He's listed as above the likes of Captain America, Shiva and Batman, but that's largely due to his physical enhancement. While someone like Spider-Man or Beast is listed in the bottom group despite their physical superiority.

That being the case does someone like Thing, who's considered moderately skilled in fighting get listed very high due to his superhuman durability and strength which supplement his skill or does he get listed in, for example, third tier solely on skill.

If you're allowing Radar Sense then not Spider-Sense? If Captain America has his shield and Elektra gets her sai, does Batman's utility belt come into play? Etc.

Basically I suggest you standardize the criteria under which you're ranking and apply it uniformly.

Co-signed with X. I say we throw every power and weapon out the window, and look at skill and skill alone.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You probably need to clarify exactly how much powers can come into play, and how much the hierarchy you're making is based on skill. And apply that comparably to everyone in the list. Additionally whether weapons and tools are taken into account, in which case characters like the Green Arrows, with an abundance of trick arrows, would probably need to be listed higher than weaponless people.



I'll think about it.


Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Take the example of Deathstroke. He's listed as above the likes of Captain America, Shiva and Batman, but that's largely due to his physical enhancement.


Yeah im going to change that for the reasons you gave.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

While someone like Spider-Man or Beast is listed in the bottom group despite their physical superiority.

Well like I said im going to move DS to second tier because he obvoulsy has MA skill but his enhancements enable him to beat people like Batman.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

That being the case does someone like Thing, who's considered moderately skilled in fighting get listed very high due to his superhuman durability and strength which supplement his skill or does he get listed in, for example, third tier solely on skill.


Things goes at the bottom.


Originally posted by xmarksthespot

If you're allowing Radar Sense then not Spider-Sense?

Well yeah. We all know that Spiderman can beat Cap and DD but even with all his powers H2H, I know Cap will give him problems defintely

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

If Captain America has his shield and Elektra gets her sai, does Batman's utility belt come into play? Etc.

Basically I suggest you standardize the criteria under which you're ranking and apply it uniformly.


Well I will have to think about that.

Originally posted by Soljer
Co-signed with X. I say we throw every power and weapon out the window, and look at skill and skill alone.

On second thoughts I think I will just leave out weapons and powers. Otherwise it will get too complicated. Anyway I will think about it. As it stand it seems I have done that already mostly.

List based on H2H skill. Imagine if characters were all human and then you gave them their MA skill, training and experience. Chi is defintely taken into account because that is MA technique that is taught even in the real world ie Tai Chi, Chi Kung.

Cosmic tier: (Can damage class100s with no problem)
Mantis, Gamora, Midnight Sun, Karate Kid

Uber tier: (Better than the greatest martial artists)
Stick, Gorgon, Midnighter, Karnak (mmmmmmaybe he jobs a bit).

Top tier: (Are usually given the title "is one of the greatest martial artists in the world."
Cap, DD, Wolverine, Shang Chi, Black Panther, Batman, Deadpool, Nightwing, Red Hood, Taskmaster, Elecktra, Kingpin, Shin Kuei, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Batgirl, Conner Hawke, Killmonger, Bane (not sure), Ra Al ghul (not sure), Red Skull.

Second tier: (Close behind the best)
Punisher, Black Widow, USA Agent, Nick Fury, Azarel (mainly brute strength rather than skill), Bullseye, Moon Knight, Sabretooth, Night Thrasher (is very good but he does use a hyrdraulic suit...so thats cheating a bit), Deathstroke (helped alot by enhancements but still has MA skill), Robin.

Third tier: (Has MA training and experience, but not particularly good.....meh!)
Agents of Shield, Hand ninjas

Accomplished fighter: (May have alot of experience but very little formal training.
Spiderman, Luke Cage, Beast, Thing, Green Arrow

Bane is definitely moved down. As is Midnighter, if you aren't taking into account his enhancements. Nick Fury should be top-tier.

Also, I think we either need a better definition of third Tier, or to eliminate it entirely. I'd say that we could introduce a third tier, and move some of top to second, and second to third, and not worry about things like hand ninja's and Shield agents.

I mean, in second tier, there are some people that are clearly superior than to the rest there, but not as good as top tier. In top tier, same thing, some are inferior, but not quite 'second tier.'

If you get my meaning, anyways.

For example, Deadpool is skilled, but I wouldn't say he's on the level of Batman, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Shiva, and Cass. Similar for Nightwing, Black Panther, Red Hood, and Taskmaster. They're all skilled, but they couldn't really keep up with the aforementioned.

However, all the people I named are a bit better than the likes of the Punisher and US Agent, so they don't really fit in tier two, either. You're basically breaking ALL the martial artists into two tiers (since you've put no one in tier three). That hardly 'ranks' them very well.

I suggest expanding the bracket into at LEAST three, perhaps four, and putting everyone in order like that. It'd make things much cleaner, and much less polarized.

Your list. Alphabetized with spelling fixed.

Cosmic tier: (Can damage class100s with no problem)
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis, Midnight Sun

Uber tier: (Better than the greatest martial artists)
Gorgon, Stick

Top tier: (Are usually given the title "is one of the greatest martial artists in the world."
Bane, Batgirl, Batman, Black Panther, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Conner Hawke, Daredevil, Deadpool, Elektra, Iron Fist, Killmonger, Kingpin, Lady Shiva, Nightwing, Ra's al Ghul, Red Hood, Red Skull, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Taskmaster, Wolverine

Second tier: (Close behind the best)
Azrael, Black Widow, Bullseye, Deathstroke, Green Arrow, Midnighter, Moon Knight, Nick Fury, Night Thrasher, Punisher, Robin, Sabretooth, US Agent

Third tier: (Has MA training and experience)
Hand Ninjas, Shield Agents

Accomplished fighter: (May have alot of experience but very little formal training.)
Beast, Luke Cage, Spider-Man, Thing

Comments:
-I've added Bronze Tiger and Richard Dragon to the Top Tier.
-Green Arrow should still be second tier, so I've moved him there. -Thing should probably be higher too.
-Moved Midnighter into Second Tier, (but without any of his enhancements I'm not sure I'd put him that high even...)
-You have far too many people in Top Tier - off the top of my head imo the following should be lowered: Bane, Black Panther (without his powers with regard to sheer skill imo he isn't on the level of Shiva, Batman, Captain America, Bronze Tiger, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi) Deadpool, Ra's al Ghul, Nightwing, Red Hood. Possibly the likes of Elektra and Daredevil too (see comment about Black Panther)
-You probably shouldn't include Hand and Shield. If you're going to have a Third Tier, you should find some third tier MAs e.g. Psylocke is probably Third Tier, and some of the Second Tier's too (once the top tier is cleaned out a bit). Thing would probably be Third Tier too. Likewise Luke Cage.
-You should really just eliminate the bottom group, if you intend to rank Martial Arts Skill there's no point in having a group where you're basically saying they don't really have any.


For reference:
DC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: DC_Comics_martial_artists
Marvel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Marvel_Comics_martial_artists

Originally posted by Soljer
Bane is definitely moved down. As is Midnighter, if you aren't taking into account his enhancements. Nick Fury should be top-tier.



Argh thats the thing Midnighters powers are directly given to thim to increase his MA ability...but then again so is super strength. Damn it forgot about Nick. This is the thing im starting to want to cinlude powers; Ah this gives me an idea powers are only allowed if it is a result of MA training. For example Wolverines heightened sense are not included because thats just his mutant ability but Chi is beacuse thats part of MA training. Bane has good whosings against Batman wiithout venom.

Originally posted by Soljer

Also, I think we either need a better definition of third Tier, or to eliminate it entirely. I'd say that we could introduce a third tier, and move some of top to second, and second to third,
and not worry about things like hand ninja's and Shield agents.

I'll see what everbody else thinks.

Originally posted by Soljer

I mean, in second tier, there are some people that are clearly superior than to the rest there, but not as good as top tier. In top tier, same thing, some are inferior, but not quite 'second tier.'

If you get my meaning, anyways.

Well lets put it this way BP is staying in top tier because evidence has been given to me that he is.


Originally posted by Soljer

For example, Deadpool is skilled, but I wouldn't say he's on the level of Batman, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Shiva, and Cass. Similar for Nightwing, Black Panther, Red Hood, and Taskmaster. They're all skilled, but they couldn't really keep up with the aforementioned.

Hasnt Dp beaten Wolverine on a couple of occasions and beaten Taskmaster in cuffs....ok that was PIS I think.

Originally posted by Soljer

However, all the people I named are a bit better than the likes of the Punisher and US Agent, so they don't really fit in tier two, either. You're basically breaking ALL the martial artists into two tiers (since you've put no one in tier three). That hardly 'ranks' them very well.

I suggest expanding the bracket into at LEAST three, perhaps four, and putting everyone in order like that. It'd make things much cleaner, and much less polarized.

Punisher is staying in tier two beacuse he has good showings aaginst DD and Bullseye. US agent seems to be better than I thought because I have seen some scans of him fighting but I might change my mind about US agent.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Comments:
-I've added Bronze Tiger and Richard Dragon to the Top Tier.

Cool.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

-Green Arrow should still be second tier, so I've moved him there.



Are you sure? I have a comic where GA gets completely pawned by an MA on bats level. Basically the guy just presure pointed GA and he went down. People say GA is a good fighter but he seems a brawler i dunno maybe it was just a low showing. Anyway im not DC expert.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

-Thing should probably be higher too.

mmmmmm. Yeah I think you're right not second tier though.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

-Moved Midnighter into Second Tier, (but without any of his enhancements I'm not sure I'd put him that high even...)



Ok.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

-You have far too many people in Top Tier - off the top of my head imo the following should be lowered: Bane, Black Panther (without his powers with regard to sheer skill imo he isn't on the level of Shiva, Batman, Captain America, Bronze Tiger, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi) Deadpool, Ra's al Ghul, Nightwing, Red Hood. Possibly the likes of Elektra and Daredevil too (see comment about Black Panther)
-You probably shouldn't include Hand and Shield. If you're going to have a Third Tier, you should find some third tier MAs e.g. Psylocke is probably Third Tier, and some of the Second Tier's too (once the top tier is cleaned out a bit).

MM doesnt BP have good showings agisnt Wolverine without enhancements. I think you might be right about Bane, but I thought Bane had a good fight against....oh nevermind I was thinking the same thing actually.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

For reference:
DC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: DC_Comics_martial_artists
Marvel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Marvel_Comics_martial_artists

OK but I have a feeling you will be far more useful on the DC side of thing. Concerning DC I will probably assume you are correct.

Latest version, some small changes. Thing in third tier. Bane in second tier.

Cosmic tier: (Can damage class100s with no problem)
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis, Midnight Sun

Uber tier: (Better than the greatest martial artists)
Gorgon, Stick

Top tier: (Are usually given the title "is one of the greatest martial artists in the world."
Batgirl, Batman, Black Panther, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Conner Hawke, Daredevil, Deadpool, Elektra, Iron Fist, Killmonger, Kingpin, Lady Shiva, Nightwing, Ra's al Ghul, Red Hood, Red Skull, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Taskmaster, Wolverine, Nick Fury

Second tier: (Close behind the best)
Azrael, Black Widow, Bullseye, Deathstroke, Green Arrow, Midnighter, Moon Knight, Night Thrasher, Punisher, Robin, Sabretooth, US Agent, Bane, Invisible Woman

Third tier: (Has MA training and experience)
Thing, Psylocke, Cyclops

Accomplished fighter: (May have alot of experience but very little formal training.)
Beast, Luke Cage, Spider-Man, Nightcrawler

Comments:
-Here is just a suggested structuring (although some of it is probably still off.)

-I suggest you limit the category of top tier to those who have actually been recognized as the best in their respective universes - after all "One of the Best MAs" doesn't mean all that much if you're going to . E.g. Shiva, Dragon and Bronze Tiger are basically noted as the 3 best in terms of skill in the DCU. Captain America and Wolverine are noted as among the best fighters in Marvel. And those who has proven themselves equal or very very very close to these fighters in skill.
I.E. Imo you should drop perhaps even a few more down a notch if they don't fulfill that criteria, and raise back any that the majority think does fit the criteria.
In the end it really should come to something akin to a normal distribution with most fighters in the second group.

-I've added WW and Black Canary into 2nd Tier. As well as Barbara Gordon, Black Cat, Storm and Catwoman. If you decide not to follow these suggestions then remember to add them back in.

Cosmic tier: (Can damage Cl100s with no problem)
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis, Midnight Sun

Uber tier: (Better than the greatest martial artists)
Gorgon, Stick

Top tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Iron Fist, Kingpin, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Taskmaster, Wolverine

Second tier: (Master Martial Artist)
Azrael, Bane, Black Canary, Black Panther, Black Widow, Bullseye, Deadpool, Daredevil, Elektra, Eric Killmonger, Deathstroke, Green Arrow, Nightwing, Midnighter, Moon Knight, Nick Fury, Night Thrasher, Punisher, Ra's al Ghul, Red Hood, Red Skull, Robin, Sabretooth, US Agent, Wonder Woman

Third tier: (Moderately to Highly Skilled)
Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Black Cat, Cyclops, Psylocke, Storm, Thing

Accomplished fighter: (Little formal training/Some Skill)
Beast, Catwoman, Luke Cage, Spider-Man

Dakon should be Top Tier for sure.

you put DareDevil as a second tier!? And Psylocke as a third tier!? WHY!?

Originally posted by AcousticDoc
you put DareDevil as a second tier!? And Psylocke as a third tier!? WHY!?

... because it makes sense?

Originally posted by AcousticDoc
you put DareDevil as a second tier!? And Psylocke as a third tier!? WHY!? It's a suggested alteration to the criteria/structuring. See comments.

Also, forgot to finish sentence, too late to edit:
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
after all "One of the Best MAs" doesn't mean all that much if you're going to put 20 something people (i.e. basically half the people) in it.

I would put Elektra in the top-tier bracket. In terms of pure skill, she's definitely in the same league as the likes of Lady Shiva and Shang Chi.

Why is shang chi considered top tier? Has he ever fought some of the other top tier heroes?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Comments:
-Here is just a suggested structuring (although some of it is probably still off.)

-I suggest you limit the category of top tier to those who have actually been recognized as the best in their respective universes - after all "One of the Best MAs" doesn't mean all that much if you're going to . E.g. Shiva, Dragon and Bronze Tiger are basically noted as the 3 best in terms of skill in the DCU. Captain America and Wolverine are noted as among the best fighters in Marvel. And those who has proven themselves equal or very very very close to these fighters in skill.
I.E. Imo you should drop perhaps even a few more down a notch if they don't fulfill that criteria, and raise back any that the majority think does fit the criteria.
In the end it really should come to something akin to a normal distribution with most fighters in the second group.

-I've added WW and Black Canary into 2nd Tier. As well as Barbara Gordon, Black Cat, Storm and Catwoman. If you decide not to follow these suggestions then remember to add them back in.

Cosmic tier: (Can damage Cl100s with no problem)
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis, Midnight Sun

Uber tier: (Better than the greatest martial artists)
Gorgon, Stick

Top tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Iron Fist, Kingpin, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Taskmaster, Wolverine

Second tier: (Master Martial Artist)
Azrael, Bane, Black Canary, Black Panther, Black Widow, Bullseye, Deadpool, Daredevil, Elektra, Eric Killmonger, Deathstroke, Green Arrow, Nightwing, Midnighter, Moon Knight, Nick Fury, Night Thrasher, Punisher, Ra's al Ghul, Red Hood, Red Skull, Robin, Sabretooth, US Agent, Wonder Woman

Third tier: (Moderately to Highly Skilled)
Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Black Cat, Cyclops, Psylocke, Storm, Thing

Accomplished fighter: (Little formal training/Some Skill)
Beast, Catwoman, Luke Cage, Spider-Man

Definitely co-signing X's suggestions. It seems a lot closer to actuality, though people like the Punisher, Robin, and US Agent still don't seem nearly as skilled as Daredevil, Elektra, or Ra's Al Ghul. Hence, in my opinion, the need of four tiers (besides the 'accomplished fighter' bracket).

Also, the kingpin (though he has taken it to Spidey, Capt and Daredevil) isn't in skill nearly as impressive as the company he keeps.

I dont fully agree with a few of X's 2nd tier picks.

For example theres Fist, Kingpin, Chi and Wolvie in the top while Daredevil, Elektra, Fury and Wonder Woman are 2nd?

If we're off skills, the 2nd tier characters i mentioned show more skill than some of those top tier characters.

Kingpin I agree with moving down. However, the top tier should be reserved for the best of the best. The smaller the top tier, the better - just like in the regular 'tiering' thread.

Chi, Fist, Wolverine, and Captain America are renowned on Marvel Earth as some of the best fighters alive. Daredevil has some insane showings, but he isn't commonly referred to as one of the best fighters on Marvel Earth. We also must take into account the fact that he has a HUGE advantage in his radar sense, and this ranking is supposed to discount powers.

(powerless)Wonder Woman was beaten by the Black Canary who got handled by Batman. She isn't top tier in skill.

Nightwing and Robin shouldn't really be in the same tier, theres a clear gap in terms of their fighting skills, if they do get grouped together it probably suggests there should be an addition tier.

Originally posted by Wally West
Nightwing and Robin shouldn't really be in the same tier, theres a clear gap in terms of their fighting skills, if they do get grouped together it probably suggests there should be an addition tier.



Something I've already been advocating. Nice to have another voice agreeing.

umm gorgon skill would not put him at over top tier........

Originally posted by capt it up
umm gorgon skill would not put him at over top tier........

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/373/w31011ip7.th.jpg

Furthering my earlier suggestions:
-I'd probably limit the Top Tier grouping to 6 a piece from Marvel and DC i.e. the top 6 MAs from Marvel and the top 6 from DC. E.g. for Elektra to move up, someone would have to move down.
-I don't really see the point of having two categories above Top-Tier, and would probably amalgamate them and add a Fourth tier...
Comments:
-I agree about Gorgon to an extent, because he had a lot of power enhancements. I would also drop Midnight Sun I think, as I'm assuming he was placed there because of his physical powers, besides the likes of Gamora and Karate Kid are universally recognised.
-Some reshuffling... it's probably still off.

Cosmic tier: (Can damage Cl100s with no problem)
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis, Midnight Sun

Uber tier: (Better than the greatest martial artists)
Gorgon, Stick

Top tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Taskmaster, Wolverine

Second tier: (Master Martial Artists)
Azrael, Black Canary, Black Panther, Black Widow, Bullseye, Deadpool, Daredevil, Elektra, Eric Killmonger, Deathstroke, Moon Knight, Nick Fury, Ra's al Ghul, Red Skull, Silver Samurai, Sabretooth, Wonder Woman

Third tier: (Moderate to Highly Skilled)
Bane, Green Arrow, Kingpin, Lady Deathstrike, Night Thrasher, Nightwing, Midnighter, Punisher, Psylocke, Red Hood, Robin, Shadowcat, US Agent

Fourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artist)
Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Black Cat, Colleen Wing, Cyclops, Misty Knight, The Question, Storm, Thing

Accomplished fighter: (Little formal training/Some Skill)
Beast, Catwoman, Luke Cage, Spider-Man

I applaud your work, X. It's very well done.

Anything particularly off?

Having Robin in the same grouping as Nightwing was a bit iffy but then he's above the Cyclops/Thing level, while Nightwing is below the Black Canary/Daredevil level... so they basically got squeezed together.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Anything particularly off?

Having Robin in the same grouping as Nightwing was a bit iffy but then he's above the Cyclops/Thing level, while Nightwing is below the Black Canary/Daredevil level... so they basically got squeezed together.

I agree on the Nightwing/Robin scenario....it's hard to accurately space out everyone, though. So I understand your feeling - the same problem has arisen once or twice in the full tiering thread, as well.

Besides that, I'm kind of wondering about Shen Kuei. He's great, but inconsistent. Sometimes he's beating Deadpool and Shang Chi like they're nothing, and in others he's one shotted by the Iron Fist.

He's good. He's inconsistent. . I, personally, think he can stay, though.

There are small discrepancies. Nick Fury is a great fighter. The robin/nightwing scenario.

But for the most part, I'd say it's fairly accurate. .

Put Cable in Top-Tier.......

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Put Cable in Top-Tier.......

And exactly which feats justify him as one of the greatest martial artists on the planet?

What has Stick done to place him on his own level?

Originally posted by Soljer
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/373/w31011ip7.th.jpg
thats mean literrally nothing. That does not make him wolverine or capt superior in combat. He was superior in every other way to these guys, but he was not as skilled which is shown in the fact wolverine was landing hits and giving gorgon quite a mess.

also Ogun should be placed ion the uber tier. He is stick = in combat skills

Originally posted by capt it up
thats mean literrally nothing. That does not make him wolverine or capt superior in combat. He was superior in every other way to these guys, but he was not as skilled which is shown in the fact wolverine was landing hits and giving gorgon quite a mess.

Only because Gorgon let him. He doesn't care about pain or damage to his own body. You know damned good and well that if he wanted to, he would have NEVER been hit by Wolverine or Elektra.

Originally posted by capt it up
also Ogun should be placed ion the uber tier. He is stick = in combat skills

Ogun never did anything impressive.

Originally posted by capt it up
thats mean literrally nothing. That does not make him wolverine or capt superior in combat. He was superior in every other way to these guys, but he was not as skilled which is shown in the fact wolverine was landing hits and giving gorgon quite a mess. I actually agree with Capt here. Gorgon was just superior in nearly every physical aspect, and didn't really feel damage, so he wasn't stunned by blows that would fell a normal man.

However, none of these speak of his actual martial arts skill. He was just a lot faster, stronger, etc.

However with what MA skill he had, mixed with his array of powers that were just too over the top for most street levelers, yeah, he was dangerous.

Originally posted by Juntai
I actually agree with Capt here. Gorgon was just superior in nearly every physical aspect, and didn't really feel damage, so he wasn't stunned by blows that would fell a normal man.

However, none of these speak of his actual martial arts skill. He was just a lot faster, stronger, etc.

However with what MA skill he had, mixed with his array of powers that were just too over the top for most street levelers, yeah, he was dangerous.

Yeah, he was superior in every physical aspect, but that doesn't take away his superiority in skill.

Also; Thanos should go in the Uber or Cosmic tier. He isn't a well known martial artist, but he trained gamora, and definitely deserves some recognition.

I really don't see Gorgon as any different than Deathstroke in that he has a crutch for what MA skills he does have, in that he's simply more powerful than most other opponents, so he can overwhelm them.

In fact, Deathstroke's feats outdo his by a longshot as well.

Originally posted by Soljer
Only because Gorgon let him. He doesn't care about pain or damage to his own body. You know damned good and well that if he wanted to, he would have NEVER been hit by Wolverine or Elektra.
actaully thats not true. he was not lettign him self be hit. He was simply gettign hit he did nothing that puts him over wolverines level of skill.

Originally posted by Soljer
Ogun never did anything impressive.
really now? You mean like spanking wolevrine like he was a child. Becoming immortal from simply being so good at martial arts. Being superhuman in every area because of his martial arts knowledge and prowess, but naw he did nothing impressive.

Oh by the way stick has done absolutly nothing more impressive then Ogun.

stick and Ogun are pritty much the same character ecpt they excell in different weapons.

so I am sorry to tell you this, but stick is no more skilled then Ogun.

Yeah? Post the scans, or get out. Stick > Ogun. Stick impressed me. Ogun was meh, at best.

Originally posted by Juntai
I really don't see Gorgon as any different than Deathstroke in that he has a crutch for what MA skills he does have, in that he's simply more powerful than most other opponents, so he can overwhelm them.

In fact, Deathstroke's feats outdo his by a longshot as well.
gorgon clearly more skilled the death stroke though the concept is the same

Originally posted by Soljer
Yeah? Post the scans, or get out. Stick > Ogun. Stick impressed me. Ogun was meh, at best.
to bad what you think does not mean fact.

prove stick superior if he is you should not have a problem doing so.


let see stick a meta human from martial arts....

Ogun a meta human from martial arts....

Stick cheated death becuase of martial arts....

Ogun cheated death from martial arts.....

Stick consider the greatest BO staff fighter to ever live......

Ogun consider the greatest Sword fighter to ever live....

Stick is very old

Ogun is over a 1000 years old....


yup pritty much the same character with the same abilities.

Oh by the way you remeber mister x........ya Ogun was rediculously more skilled then he was and mister X is a top tier MA.

Originally posted by capt it up
gorgon clearly more skilled the death stroke though the concept is the same I don't think so.

But yeah, the concept was what I was shooting for anyways.

It really depends on whether consensus is that the teacher is still superior to the student or whether the student has surpassed them, with characters like Ogun, Stick, David Cain, O-Sensei etc.

I'm ambivalent on Gorgon.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
It really depends on whether consensus is that the teacher is still superior to the student or whether the student has surpassed them, with characters like Ogun, Stick, David Cain, O-Sensei etc.

I'm ambivalent on Gorgon.
very true

Originally posted by Soljer
And exactly which feats justify him as one of the greatest martial artists on the planet?

stalemating Wolverine in a contest of Skill....

Originally posted by Martian_mind
stalemating Wolverine in a contest of Skill....

Oh, boy. Now you've done it. Capt's gonna attack you with a barrage of half ways coherent ninja-babble.

Originally posted by Soljer
Oh, boy. Now you've done it. Capt's gonna attack you with a barrage of half ways coherent ninja-babble.
come on was there a need for that really.















you can handle this one all by your self.

I was gonna say "beat" but even i'm not that crazy

Originally posted by Martian_mind
I was gonna say "beat" but even i'm not that crazy

lol he did sorta beat logan once in 2000 if I am not mistaken, but not due to skill.

Heh,I think you'llk concur he should be in the same bracket as Wolverine.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Heh,I think you'llk concur he should be in the same bracket as Wolverine.

I am still on the fence about him. I have been re reading his fights and I have yet to complete my thoughts on the matter

which comic is the one were cable jumps off the biulding and hits wolverine. It one of there first fights I can't find the issue and I am pritty sure I own it.

It's new Mutants.it is their first on panel confrontation.Cable basically outskills Wolverine in a roundabout way.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
It's new Mutants.it is their first on panel confrontation.Cable basically outskills Wolverine in a roundabout way.
yes but what year of new mutants and issue number.

Number 97 or something like that.Just before it became X-force.

you mean this issue.........

No.....Their first fight.The one where Woplverine says he doesn'tneed Claws,gets manhandled and then has to bring them out.....

Also Cable didn't even want to fight there...

Originally posted by Martian_mind
No.....Their first fight.The one where Woplverine says he doesn'tneed Claws,gets manhandled and then has to bring them out.....

Also Cable didn't even want to fight there...
really as I recall he jumped wolverine from behind.......

I am quite positive that is the fight you are referring to.........

No......


my one has him sneaking up on Wolverine,then hitting Wolverine,who sasys he won't need his claws,then he loses,has to bring out the claws,and then the fight is interrupted.Also as Cable is trying to Talk to Wolverine there,i doubt he was going hard out,plus that looks like a very Cheapshot from a Wolverine who thought Cable killed X.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
No......


my one has him sneaking up on Wolverine,then hitting Wolverine,who sasys he won't need his claws,then he loses,has to bring out the claws,and then the fight is interrupted.Also as Cable is trying to Talk to Wolverine there,i doubt he was going hard out,plus that looks like a very Cheapshot from a Wolverine who thought Cable killed X.
umm no that was a completely different fight. When he though t cable killed x he had Bishop with him.........


also that picture has the same art as the comic were cable ambushes wolverine......

If I am not mistaken that is the out come of the fight.

also the fight when cable ambushes logan, you do know logan poped his claws out........

That isn't the outcome of the fight,and that still looks like a cheapshot.can you post the rest?


Again,that is not the fight,Cable is dressed differently to what i remember.

edit

edit

never mind you are correct it was a different fight

Just re-read the issue,that never happens,Cable is holding Wolverine,who ad to unsheath his claws,up by the collar,then they break a water tower over them.

That is a later fight....and no,Cable isn't attacking,he is trying to speak to him and gets cheapshotted.

Edit:soz missed ur last post.Never mind.Do you have the fight or should i post it?

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Just re-read the issue,that never happens,Cable is holding Wolverine,who ad to unsheath his claws,up by the collar,then they break a water tower over them.

That is a later fight....and no,Cable isn't attacking,he is trying to speak to him and gets cheapshotted.
I edit my post already it was a different fight


oh and no in the scann i posted cable was not trying to talk he was out for blood, but I just realize it a what if comic I looked it up. That was my bad.

I don't have the fight your welcome to post it if you want.

Fair enough.


So can he be top-tier?

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Fair enough.


So can he be top-tier?

I still deciding. One fight is not the end all decider. I am reading over him and I will have my thoughts on the matter later. He at least the tier below top tier, he may be top tier I need to re read up on him. I have read some issues so far they look promissing.

He is uber seriously.


I remember rictor walking in and Cable is training against two robots on the highest setting and Rictor thinks "No man could possibly survive that!" then Cable owns them.


Cable pwns.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
He is uber seriously.


I remember rictor walking in and Cable is training against two robots on the highest setting and Rictor thinks "No man could possibly survive that!" then Cable owns them.


Cable pwns.
impressive, but again not enough. Wolverine maxed out the danger room before while costing is nuetral

He Fought his way through the dark riders......plus he once through a Katana withe perfect aim,so that it pioned a man to a tree by catching his robe exactly beneath his testicles.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
He Fought his way through the dark riders......plus he once through a Katana withe perfect aim,so that it pioned a man to a tree by catching his robe exactly beneath his testicles.
see again not that impressive. Wolverine fought thousands of hand ninja and won with out taking a hit. He also has thrown darts with such aim that they stuck in the back of eachother with out trying.

Those feats don't make him top tier.

It puts him on Wolverine's level,Isn't that top-tier?

Cable didn't take a hit either and theses were the best warriors in the world.


Hell a Cable with no powers who was being torn apart from the inside out was able to block a kick from deadpool and then in 2 moves put him out of the fight for awhile,then when DP came back,Cable caught his kick and threw him 50 feet long and two stories high.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Third tier: (Moderate to Highly Skilled)
Bane, Green Arrow, Kingpin, Lady Deathstrike, Night Thrasher, Nightwing, Midnighter, Punisher, Psylocke, Red Hood, Robin, Shadowcat, US Agent

Nightwing is far beyond "Moderate to Highly Skilled", he is a Master of many martial arts, and has knowledge of pretty much every form of combat that Batman knows. He can't be placed in the same tier as Robin and Punisher, he is one of DC's very best. I don't see why in terms of purely martial arts ability he shouldn't be in the same tier as DareDevil, I think Nightwing's martial arts knowledge is probably superior to his. Green Arrow is a martials arts master as well.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
-Some reshuffling... it's probably still off.

Also the parentheses probably shouldn't really be taken too literally...

Although I'd actually probably second moving him up a notch in retrospect..

Green arrow should be considered a master martial artist now. Dakon should be on Greatest Martial Artists. Agent X should be at Master Martial artist. Thanos should be at LEAST master martial artist, considering he trained Gamora. Blade should be under Master Martial Artist.

That is all, for now.

Originally posted by Wally West
Nightwing is far beyond "Moderate to Highly Skilled", he is a Master of many martial arts, and has knowledge of pretty much every form of combat that Batman knows. He can't be placed in the same tier as Robin and Punisher, he is one of DC's very best. I don't see why in terms of purely martial arts ability he shouldn't be in the same tier as DareDevil, I think Nightwing's martial arts knowledge is probably superior to his. Green Arrow is a martials arts master as well.

Nightwing should be in the same tier as batman, he could be better at this point,not in mastering forms but in a one on one fight H2H(yes its debatable)

He was younger than bruce when he started,he had acrobatic training as a child,he was trained by the best of the best,he has grown into an adult in the very pages of the comics over 40 years(real life hehe),no character from any universe has his experience and training,without coming from nowhere,its easy to make a new character and say hey he is one of the best or even an adult in the comics,by showing Dick get older we have to beleive so are the adults he grew up with, batman is starting to give hints at him being better

just my opinon, i dont hold to any of the tiers or systems that created them,but Nightwing is one of the best

Originally posted by starlock
Nightwing should be in the same tier as batman, he could be better at this point,not in mastering forms but in a one on one fight H2H(yes its debatable)

He was younger than bruce when he started,he had acrobatic training as a child,he was trained by the best of the best,he has grown into an adult in the very pages of the comics over 40 years(real life hehe),no character from any universe has his experience and training,without coming from nowhere,its easy to make a new character and say hey he is one of the best or even an adult in the comics,by showing Dick get older we have to beleive so are the adults he grew up with, batman is starting to give hints at him being better

just my opinon, i dont hold to any of the tiers or systems that created them,but Nightwing is one of the best Last time he ran into Bruce, he couldn't land a hit and Bruce ran the show. But then again, that happens to most any Martial Artist once Bruce gets serious.

I gotta agree with everything Wally said a couple posts up however.