Questions about Karma

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Shakyamunison

Czarina_Czarina
i thought karma was the name of a Hindu deity and what you listed above are the attributes and characteristics of that Deity or the society of that Deity. sometimes, i like these circular arguments and that everything goes round and round, nothing has it's own distinction and even if it does, it feeds the outcome b/c it's existence and therefore, should have it's proper place...sometimes, that kind of thinking works well for my views in life, but other times, it upsets me, and i don't know why yet.

Grand_Moff_Gav

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Isn't Karma just rubbish made up by a bunch of randoms?
(See, I can do it too! stick out tongue)

So, after doing all that reading, you still have that opinion?

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So, after doing all that reading, you still have that opinion?

Well...wheres the proof that these people weren't just really high?

Czarina_Czarina
http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/deity/KarmaAsDeity.html

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Well...wheres the proof that these people weren't just really high?

Please take your point elsewhere.

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Please take your point elsewhere.

Its really irritating isn't it. Wait until people start saying Sigmund Freud proved you wrong...

Maybe you will just reap what you sowed in the Adam and Eve thread.

Czarina_Czarina
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Well...wheres the proof that these people weren't just really high?

good point, i do some research on medicinal plants/herbs, for canary as well as medicinal reasons, i don't know much about the herbs that people smoke in order to meditate, this stuff about karma could be from a bad herb or a good one, who knows, but if the herb was bad, it doesn't matter b/c bad eventually become good...right??? erm

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Czarina_Czarina
good point, i do some research on medicinal plants/herbs, for canary as well as medicinal reasons, i don't know much about the herbs that people smoke in order to meditate, this stuff about karma could be from a bad herb or a good one, who knows, but if the herb was bad, it doesn't matter b/c bad eventually become good...right??? erm

Exactly, it's amazing, Christianity doesn't stand up to scrutiny on these boards, and neither does Buddhism.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Its really irritating isn't it. Wait until people start saying Sigmund Freud proved you wrong...

Maybe you will just reap what you sowed in the Adam and Eve thread.

I will report for for trolling if you continue.

leonheartmm
shakyamu, are KARMA and action intertwined and mutually complementing in buddhism as u see it or are there distinct differences between the two.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by leonheartmm
shakyamu, are KARMA and action intertwined and mutually complementing in buddhism as u see it or are there distinct differences between the two.

They are mutual. In order to explain why, I would have to explain the ten worlds.

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I will report for for trolling if you continue.

Go for it, fact is, Karma is about as believable as the great flood. The fact that it insults you to answer to the possibility that Karma is all rubbish is your fault not mine. I can't help you have this confrontational attitude when someone criticise your faith.

Any Moderator who reads this will realise I have acted as you would act in many of the other Christianity related threads.

JIA handles criticism better.

Now, becasuse I feel you understand what I meant in the PMs I will ask the questions you feel appropriate, never again will I question if its all true.

leonheartmm
{i think some people dont understand the fact that buddhism is a philosophy of spirituality and finding the purest, truest mental or spiritual path. it does NOT like christianity or other relegions attempt to bring in the generally followed practices of humans or logical debates as it does not mix materialism in its teachings. nor does it pass judgement on certain practices the way other organised relegions do and as such is not plagued by the self contradictory nature of the amalgamation of spirituality and practice/realism/materialism/judgement. also because of this it cannot be criticised on the same grounds the other are. even an atheist or agnostic{given he is logical} can at best say{as i do} that it is merely a differnt and not necessarily more incorrect way of looking at the world as compared to mine and at the very least, its humane teachings are logical and its spiritual teachings soothing and loving. ofcourse one might wanna humbly argue that its chant's or unselfishness{to a more extreme extent then is normally human as we takke it} make one forget their soul, but that is a very dodgy and inconclusive topic as far as the open ended teachings are concerned.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Go for it, fact is, Karma is about as believable as the great flood. The fact that it insults you to answer to the possibility that Karma is all rubbish is your fault not mine. I can't help you have this confrontational attitude when someone criticise your faith.

Any Moderator who reads this will realise I have acted as you would act in many of the other Christianity related threads.

JIA handles criticism better.

No, you are being spiteful because you feel like you were mistreated in another thread. I am not complaining about your disbelief in Karma; I am complaining about your attempt to derail this threat because of a lesson you wish in impart onto me.

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
No, you are being spiteful because you feel like you were mistreated in another thread. I am not complaining about your disbelief in Karma; I am complaining about your attempt to derail this threat because of a lesson you wish in impart onto me.

You understand it can be annoying yes? I have no intention of continuing, its just a point- relevant to Karma! What goes around comes around!

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
You understand it can be annoying yes? I have no intention of continuing, its just a point- relevant to Karma! What goes around comes around!

I understood your point yesterday.

Czarina_Czarina
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
No, you are being spiteful because you feel like you were mistreated in another thread. I am not complaining about your disbelief in Karma; I am complaining about your attempt to derail this threat because of a lesson you wish in impart onto me.

i am actually speaking as your friend, isn't this viewed as a lesson b/c you believe in karma? and if there aren't distinctions in negative and positive, if they are mutual, then doesn't the negative have just as much right as the positive, and if this is true, and you view this experience with Grand as negative, won't it come out positive since neither one really exists or they are the same so they cancel each other out? sorry for the sarcasm.

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I understood your point yesterday.

I am glad.

Originally posted by Czarina_Czarina
i am actually speaking as your friend, isn't this viewed as a lesson b/c you believe in karma? and if there aren't distinctions in negative and positive, if they are mutual, then doesn't the negative have just as much right as the positive, and if this is true, and you view this experience with Grand as negative, won't it come out positive since neither one really exists or they are the same so they cancel each other out? sorry for the sarcasm.
Thanks, you understand it better than I do.

Question Time

How do you personally implement your belief in Karma in your daily life?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Czarina_Czarina
i am actually speaking as your friend, isn't this viewed as a lesson b/c you believe in karma? and if there aren't distinctions in negative and positive, if they are mutual, then doesn't the negative have just as much right as the positive, and if this is true, and you view this experience with Grand as negative, won't it come out positive since neither one really exists or they are the same so they cancel each other out? sorry for the sarcasm.

I do not view my experience with Grand as being negative.

Good and bad are relative. Example: a predator takes down pray in the wild; to the pray, this act is bad, but to the predator, the act is good.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
How do you personally implement your belief in Karma in your daily life?

How do you implement the law of gravity in your daily life?

Czarina_Czarina
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I am glad.


Thanks, you understand it better than I do.

Question Time

How do you personally implement your belief in Karma in your daily life?

I don't worship Karma, i think some aspects of life can be seen as karmic, but i like Catholic stuff, even though i am no catholic, the 7 deadly sins are pretty good thing to avoid, see, in Christianity, we only focus on the negative in order to avoid it, we don't honor it, if i am wrong, let me know.

Czarina_Czarina
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I do not view my experience with Grand as being negative.

Good and bad are relative. Example: a predator takes down pray in the wild; to the pray, this act is bad, but to the predator, the act is good.



i have real problems with that philosophy, it really does bug me, even purgatory bugs me sometimes...does the negative HAVE to teach us positive, why does the negative get a positive place of honor? this has been some of my troubles when trying to accept Eastern philosophy.

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Czarina_Czarina
I don't worship Karma, i think some aspects of life can be seen as karmic, but i like Catholic stuff, even though i am no catholic, the 7 deadly sins are pretty good thing to avoid, see, in Christianity, we only focus on the negative in order to avoid it, we don't honor it, if i am wrong, let me know.

Well, if your separating Catholicism from Christianity then you could look at it like this:

Message of the Catholic Church: Live a good life, go to Heaven.

Message of the Post-Reformation Churches: If you dare live a bad life. You'll go to Hell!

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Czarina_Czarina
i have real problems with that philosophy, it really does bug me, even purgatory bugs me sometimes...does the negative HAVE to teach us positive, why does the negative get a positive place of honor.

Negative does not get a place of honor, but neither does positive.

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I do not view my experience with Grand as being negative.

Good and bad are relative. Example: a predator takes down pray in the wild; to the pray, this act is bad, but to the predator, the act is good.



How do you implement the law of gravity in your daily life?

I don't the Laws of Gravity is absolute garbage, there are things out in space which act totally contradictory to Newton's Laws.

Apparently I asked the wrong question, but what can I say, I am new to this, your meant to explain it too me. Let me try again.

What does Karma mean to you?

Czarina_Czarina
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Negative does not get a place of honor, but neither does positive.


positive does have honor, i know that in certain circumstances, both are the same, but not in all.

sorry, but canceling out positive to save face of the negative is really something else.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Czarina_Czarina
positive does have honor, i know that in certain circumstances, both are the same, but not in all.

sorry, but canceling out positive to save face of the negative is really something else.

I do not understand your point of view, and that is probably why you do not understand mine.

Positive and negatives do not exist independent of one another.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I don't the Laws of Gravity is absolute garbage, there are things out in space which act totally contradictory to Newton's Laws.

Apparently I asked the wrong question, but what can I say, I am new to this, your meant to explain it too me. Let me try again.

What does Karma mean to you?

Karma is the river that I am on. Does that help?

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I don't the Laws of Gravity is absolute garbage, there are things out in space which act totally contradictory to Newton's Laws.

Apparently I asked the wrong question, but what can I say, I am new to this, your meant to explain it too me. Let me try again.

What does Karma mean to you?

i think the POINT he was trying to make was that KARMA is an omnipresent aspect contributing to your existance so u cant really implement it in your life like a doctrine. personally i think u can infer things from the possible phenomenon and think of ways to WORK OUT BETTER in a specific flow or phenomenon.

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Karma is the river that I am on. Does that help?

Does it affect how you make decisions? Do you stop and think...of the Karmacal Implications?

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by leonheartmm
i think the POINT he was trying to make was that KARMA is an omnipresent aspect contributing to your existance so u cant really implement it in your life like a doctrine. personally i think u can infer things from the possible phenomenon and think of ways to WORK OUT BETTER in a specific flow or phenomenon.

Yes, he explained that.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by leonheartmm
i think the POINT he was trying to make was that KARMA is an omnipresent aspect contributing to your existance so u cant really implement it in your life like a doctrine. personally i think u can infer things from the possible phenomenon and think of ways to WORK OUT BETTER in a specific flow or phenomenon.

Thank you.

It is possible to change your karma for the better. Please re-read the last section on Simultaneity of cause and effect.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Does it affect how you make decisions? Do you stop and think...of the Karmacal Implications?

Please re-read the last section on Simultaneity of cause and effect, and then ask me questions.

Grand_Moff_Gav
So, cause and effect are linked and inseparable...but therefore does your knowledge of Karma mean you can act in a way that provides the best effects thus gives you the best lifestyle?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
So, cause and effect are linked and inseparable...but therefore does your knowledge of Karma mean you can act in a way that provides the best effects thus gives you the best lifestyle?

Yes. I can change my karma with my Buddhahood life condition.

Imagine you could stand outside of time, and see all of time stretched out before you. In the Lotus Sutra it states that we all will gain enlightenment. So, you are enlightened in the future. Buddhahood is that future state of being that reaches through all time. Because you will be enlightened in the future, and Buddhahood is not bound by time, you can access your enlightenment now.

Grand_Moff_Gav
So if I worked hard enough, presumably through meditation I would become as enlightened as the Buddha?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
So if I worked hard enough, presumably through meditation I would become as enlightened as the Buddha?

No. You cannot gain enlightenment through deeds. You cannot gain something you already have. What you have to do is wake up and realize your enlightenment.

Grand_Moff_Gav
So I am enlightened...but I haven't realised that yet?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
So I am enlightened...but I haven't realised that yet?

You and every other living thing.

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You and every other living thing.

Including the Lotus?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Including the Lotus?

Sure. What is your point? confused

Grand_Moff_Gav
So, even lifeforms which Science would regard as...mindless are enlightened? How do they become aware of it if they cannot think?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
So, even lifeforms which Science would regard as...mindless are enlightened? How do they become aware of it if they cannot think?

We will take it one step further. All things have a Buddhahood.

You will need to find a Nichiren Buddhist teacher to answer that question. I can recommend a good book.

Grand_Moff_Gav
I would love to learn about this ideal in detail but I'm afraid I am finding Vatican I and II hard enough at the moment. However, recommend away, I am sure I will find a copy in the Library somewhere and I can delve into Buddhism when I have time.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I would love to learn about this ideal in detail but I'm afraid I am finding Vatican I and II hard enough at the moment. However, recommend away, I am sure I will find a copy in the Library somewhere and I can delve into Buddhism when I have time.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Buddha-Daily-Life-Introduction-Daishonin/dp/071267456X

Czarina_Czarina
everything that has life (frequency vibration as an entity) has an abstract architecture, and again, a frequency vibration, and are connected to each other like a spider web, each node of the web is a different life form with different attributes/functions and frequency vibration, from protozoa to flowers to whales.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Czarina_Czarina
everything that has life (frequency vibration as an entity) has an abstract architecture, and again, a frequency vibration, and are connected to each other like a spider web, each node of the web is a different life form with different attributes/functions and frequency vibration, from protozoa to flowers to whales.

OK confused

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Czarina_Czarina
everything that has life (frequency vibration as an entity) has an abstract architecture, and again, a frequency vibration, and are connected to each other like a spider web, each node of the web is a different life form with different attributes/functions and frequency vibration, from protozoa to flowers to whales.

Fascinating.

Czarina_Czarina
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
OK confused

eek!

leonheartmm
i think our conciousness exists as a purely virtual construst having been born as a result of an imaginary function{as in mathematical functions} of the content/context which consist of the type of arrangement of physical particles which consist of brain impulses etc. so it is at the same time completely dependant yet completely unique and in its domain, independant of the physical variable. in other words it or part of it is self contained and that makes it have both final and no boundries at the same time in its domain. thats why from a CONCIOUSNESS perspective of mine anything and all things has a conciousness or potential conciousness as the conciousness is infinite, in number and scope.

Goddess Kali
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Go for it, fact is, Karma is about as believable as the great flood. The fact that it insults you to answer to the possibility that Karma is all rubbish is your fault not mine. I can't help you have this confrontational attitude when someone criticise your faith.

Any Moderator who reads this will realise I have acted as you would act in many of the other Christianity related threads.

JIA handles criticism better.

Now, becasuse I feel you understand what I meant in the PMs I will ask the questions you feel appropriate, never again will I question if its all true.



You didn't simply challenge his claim...you completely insulted him with your sarcastic statement. There's better ways of approaching people and questioning thier knowledge, than to act like a child.


Trust me....i learned the hard way that when you approach people in an antagonizing manner it only comes back to bite you in the ass later when no one respects your perspective any longer.

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Trust me....i learned the hard way that when you approach people in an antagonizing manner it only comes back to bite you in the ass later when no one respects your perspective any longer.

Your a little late, besides this my my childish and spiteful response to Shakyamunison's childish and spiteful actions a day or two ago. So if anything, this is the "bite in the ass" for his antagonizing behaviour.

lord xyz
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
According to this concept of karma, one's actions in the past have shaped one's present reality, and one's actions in the present will in turn influence one's future. This is the only part which, to me, makes sense. However, I already knew this.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Your a little late, besides this my my childish and spiteful response to Shakyamunison's childish and spiteful actions a day or two ago. So if anything, this is the "bite in the ass" for his antagonizing behaviour.

So, because I say Adam and Eve are myth, I'm being childish? There was a lot of childish people on that thread, in that case:

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Adam and Eve did not exist.

Originally posted by Strangelove
I just like to go with "It's a crock of shit, never happened" stick out tongue

Originally posted by lord xyz
Adam and Eve don't exist.

Originally posted by Vinny Valentine
They never existed. They are Myth, not factual.

Originally posted by Vinny Valentine
Wrong.

If they didn't exist, they could not have been any race.

Originally posted by lord xyz
... you can't prove where Adam and Eve lived, using science in your theory, if they don't exist.

Did you troll any threads made by these people?

Grand_Moff_Gav
You are correct, all those well structured on topic arguments show very well thought out intelligent arguments. Oh, and what a marvellous list of the most respected members of the forum...and at least I never came into your thread and said "I think karma's a crock of shit, never existed." I just pointed out that it could all be myth. You are now instigating flaming here I think, I have explained myself, I have humoured your Karma belief and even displayed interest.

Lets not get off topic anymore, I shall ignore all future baiting with blissful ignorance.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
You are correct, all those well structured on topic arguments show very well thought out intelligent arguments. Oh, and what a marvellous list of the most respected members of the forum...and at least I never came into your thread and said "I think karma's a crock of shit, never existed." I just pointed out that it could all be myth. You are now instigating flaming here I think, I have explained myself, I have humoured your Karma belief and even displayed interest.

Lets not get off topic anymore, I shall ignore all future baiting with blissful ignorance.

laughing *snap* laughing
Intent is everything. That is how Karma works; you know what is right and wrong, and you live with the mistakes you make, as well as I do.

Grand_Moff_Gav
Is there a god in Buddhism?

Shakyamunison

Grand_Moff_Gav
Well, it is time for you to explain the truth behind this "god".

lord xyz

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Well, it is time for you to explain the truth behind this "god".

That will take a long time. The mystic law is not easy to understand. Many people struggle a lifetime to understand. I do not believe that I could teach you something that I only understand deep within me.

Here is the definition:

Mystic Law (Chin miao-fa; Jpn myoho )

The ultimate law, principle, or truth of life and the universe in Nichiren's teachings; the Law of Nam-myoho-renge-kyo. This term derives from Kumarajiva's Chinese translation of the Sanskrit word saddharma, from the title of the Sad-dharma-pundarika-sutra, or the Lotus Sutra. It has been translated into English also as Wonderful Law, Wonderful Dharma, Fine Dharma, etc. (In this dictionary, in accord with published translations, it is rendered as Wonderful Law when referring to the title of the Lotus Sutra, and as Mystic Law when referring to the underlying principle it represents in Nichiren's teaching.)

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by lord xyz
You need to work on your grammar.

I am a lost cause. wink

lord xyz
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I am a lost cause. wink Aww. Well, atleast you know. wink

lord xyz
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
laughing *snap* laughing
Intent is everything. That is how Karma works; you know what is right and wrong, and you live with the mistakes you make, as well as I do. There's a right and wrong?

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by lord xyz
There's a right and wrong?

Absolutely.

The big EH
but if you were to kill somebody to save a thousand people, would that still be wrong???

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by The big EH
but if you were to kill somebody to save a thousand people, would that still be wrong???

It would depend on the circumstances.

The big EH
how does it get more clear than that, if that guy dies thousands are saved, he lives thousands die.... think of it like this, if somebody killed all of the 9/11 bombers (hey without the dash it's 911) and 9/11 never happenned and the whole stupid war in iraq never happenned saving i think over a million people, would it be a wrong to commit those murders

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by The big EH
but if you were to kill somebody to save a thousand people, would that still be wrong???

Only you can answer that question.

Nellinator
Originally posted by The big EH
how does it get more clear than that, if that guy dies thousands are saved, he lives thousands die.... think of it like this, if somebody killed all of the 9/11 bombers (hey without the dash it's 911) and 9/11 never happenned and the whole stupid war in iraq never happenned saving i think over a million people, would it be a wrong to commit those murders It wouldn't be murder, defending the helpless or innocent is not murder.

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by The big EH
how does it get more clear than that, if that guy dies thousands are saved, he lives thousands die.... think of it like this, if somebody killed all of the 9/11 bombers (hey without the dash it's 911) and 9/11 never happenned and the whole stupid war in iraq never happenned saving i think over a million people, would it be a wrong to commit those murders

God does at times permit those who are in authority or those in extenuating life-threatening circumstances to kill. For example, police officers, those in combat (i.e. justified combat), and true self-defense for oneself or another. But this is not a license to take someone's life. For instance, if you found yourself in a situation where you deem it necessary to take someone's life (justifiably) but you do not have to, then in that situation preservation of life is paramount. Just because you can take someone's life justifably doesn't mean that you should if you have other options. Case in point, you awake to discover that someone has broken into your house. They see you see them. There is at least twenty feet between the two of you. The intruder turns to leave the house but trips and breaks his/her leg. You have a loaded gun within reach. The intruder is in obvious pain and it appears that he/she is not carrying a weapon. The phone is within easy reach. Do you kill the intruder anyway or do you point your gun at him/her and threaten to shoot if they try to harm you while you call the police? In that situation you have the situation under control, there is no need to kill the person.

Goddess Kali
I agree, killing should be a last resort...

The big EH
i never said to use it as a first resort, and i wasn't asking if "the all-powerfull lord" would think it's alright to if i killed somebody for a right reason like saving thousands of others, i was asking if it was morally right

Shakyamunison
Back on topic please.

lord xyz
Is it true that Buddhists are supposed to respect all other religions? As in, let your own be made fun of as much as you make fun of other religions?

lord xyz
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Absolutely. Then what are these absolute rights and wrongs? I'm not just asking you, I'm asking everyone.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by lord xyz
Is it true that Buddhists are supposed to respect all other religions? As in, let your own be made fun of as much as you make fun of other religions?

No. confused Where do you get that? laughing out loud


Originally posted by lord xyz
Then what are these absolute rights and wrongs? I'm not just asking you, I'm asking everyone.

And what does that have to do with Karma?

lord xyz
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
No. confused Where do you get that? laughing out loud




And what does that have to do with Karma? I must've read it somewhere. But the Hindus and Sihks believe that.

That question evolved fom your statement:

Also, if Karma is "Do good things, good things happen to you. Do bad things, bad things happen to you."

Does it work the other way? "Bad things happen to you for no apparent reason, good things happen to you for no apparent reason?"

Or something like that?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by lord xyz
I must've read it somewhere. But the Hindus and Sihks believe that.

That question evolved fom your statement:

Also, if Karma is "Do good things, good things happen to you. Do bad things, bad things happen to you."

Does it work the other way? "Bad things happen to you for no apparent reason, good things happen to you for no apparent reason?"

Or something like that?

It is far more complicated then that. I believe nothing happens by chance; everything is the product of cause and effect. Karma is the interaction between your Karma and all other karma. Did you know that inanimate objects have Karma too?

lord xyz
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It is far more complicated then that. I believe nothing happens by chance; everything is the product of cause and effect. Karma is the interaction between your Karma and all other karma. Did you know that inanimate objects have Karma too? JIA responce: You say you don't believe in chance, yet you thoroughly defend evolution as science? Haha.

Now, my responce is more like: Things don't happen by chance, that is true, but it's not as simple as Karma. Nothing is that simple, but by saying it's not a simple rule, doesn't mean it's by chance. It's through lots of complex rules that may look like chance but aren't.

Eg. Lightening looks like it strikes the Earth at random, but it doesn't, it strikes the Earth passing through the most electronically active particles first, making the quickest journey.

And the thing about Karma, is that it's too simple to be possible. People do what are called bad things, but are just ways of obtaining power, however, extra power is uncontrollable, therefore those with extra power lose it, and thus, something what people called bad happens to them.

Hard for me to explain, better you hear it from Alliance or someone of similar intelligence and maturity.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by lord xyz
JIA responce: You say you don't believe in chance, yet you thoroughly defend evolution as science? Haha.

Now, my responce is more like: Things don't happen by chance, that is true, but it's not as simple as Karma. Nothing is that simple, but by saying it's not a simple rule, doesn't mean it's by chance. It's through lots of complex rules that may look like chance but aren't.

Eg. Lightening looks like it strikes the Earth at random, but it doesn't, it strikes the Earth passing through the most electronically active particles first, making the quickest journey.

And the thing about Karma, is that it's too simple to be possible. People do what are called bad things, but are just ways of obtaining power, however, extra power is uncontrollable, therefore those with extra power lose it, and thus, something what people called bad happens to them.

Hard for me to explain, better you hear it from Alliance or someone of similar intelligence and maturity.

Karma is NOT simple at all.

Goddess Kali
If a meteor hits the Earth, that is most likely the result of chance, and we are in no way responsible for such a thing.



I am not trying to anger or challenge you Shaky, but despite my trust and respect in Buddhism, I am a strong beleiver that Nature is more powerful than Mankind.

We can certainly influence and affect nature, but we are not more powerful than nature, and many aspects of nature are not only beyond our control, but are in no way our responsibility.


Buddha even stated himself that one can only have true control over his or her self..not over anyone or anything else.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Goddess Kali
If a meteor hits the Earth, that is most likely the result of chance, and we are in no way responsible for such a thing.



I am not trying to anger or challenge you Shaky, but despite my trust and respect in Buddhism, I am a strong beleiver that Nature is more powerful than Mankind.

We can certainly influence and affect nature, but we are not more powerful than nature, and many aspects of nature are not only beyond our control, but are in no way our responsibility.


Buddha even stated himself that one can only have true control over his or her self..not over anyone or anything else.

You still have a Christian understanding of Karma, no offence.

If a meteor hits the Earth, it does not do that by chance. It hits the Earth because the Earth intersected it's path (the Earth's karma). The reason the meteor was on that path was because of all the gravity that influenced it, or in other words, it's karma.

Goddess Kali
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You still have a Christian understanding of Karma, no offence.


I am not talking about Karma...I am commenting on your point about chance vs. cause and effect.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
If a meteor hits the Earth, it does not do that by chance.


Yes it does



Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It hits the Earth because the Earth intersected it's path (the Earth's karma).



That's still chance....If i cross the street, and I get hit by a car, that happened by chance. It can happen at any time (hopefully i wont ever happen, but u get the point laughing )

Yes, I decided to cross the street, and the street is the natural path for a car, but me getting hit is not only cause and effect..it is also chance. There was a chance it could have happened, and a chance it could not have happened, but this time the chance occurred.


Why do you separate chance from cause and effect ? I beleive chance is a part of cause and effect....






Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The reason the meteor was on that path was because of all the gravity that influenced it, or in other words, it's karma.



I think you and I are using different defintions of the word chance.

Shakyamunison

Goddess Kali

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Okay

laughing

No, they do not appear and disappear, but the moment that a car heading in one journey and a person heading in another journey meet and collide is what I personally define as chance.

Cause and Effect could have easily been that these two forces never met....but they did...that is chance.

That is one definition, but that's not what I am using.

I fill out a Lottery Ticket...the balls form into a formation in the machine which matches the numbers I guessed. That is cause and effect, but it was also chance. They cause was the SAME, but the effect could have been one out of a hundred others.....

Cause and Effect are not the only the manifestations of sentient action. Non-Living objects and forces become causes and create effects. A sentient being like a human, animal, or alien is capable of making decisions which are the causes and consequences which are the effects.

A nebula births stars....that is cause and effect. Yet, there is no behind the scenes force directing this action. It just happens. That can easily be defined as chance.

The Birth of the Universe could be mere chance. That does not rule out Cause and Effect.

I do not define chance as randonmess or lack of order. I define chance as the likeliness or something happening or not happening due to the factors behind it.

Under your definition, chance would be Karma, kind of.

To me, there is no such thing as chance because there is no effect that does not have a cause. Am I wrong? Can you give me an effect that does not have a cause?

Just because something is to complex to predict, does not mean that it does not have karma.

Goddess Kali
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Under your definition, chance would be Karma, kind of.


That's what I was referring too




Originally posted by Shakyamunison
To me, there is no such thing as chance because there is no effect that does not have a cause. Am I wrong? Can you give me an effect that does not have a cause?


But one cause can have many different effects...life is not black or white where one cause will only have one possible effect....the possibilities that spring from one single action are endless.


I beleive Chance is entirely dependent on the numerous factors that create it....a single effect can have numerous causes...a single cause can have numerous effects...


Chance is the probability that a certain outcome will or will not occur based on the factors involved...no let me rephrase that...Chance is the possibility of what effect will arise from a cause.



As for your other question....the Birth of the Universe may or may not have a cause...or point....If the Big Bang and Big Crunch theory is correct, then it is likely that the Universe's cycle of birth and rebirth is infinite, like a circle, and therefore there is no initial cause and no final effect. Just a series of causes and effects.





Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Just because something is to complex to predict, does not mean that it does not have karma.


I never said that....


But that does suggest that all bad things happen for a reason....

Shakyamunison

Goddess Kali

Shakyamunison
^ I don't believe in chance. Nothing ever happens by chance.

Goddess Kali
We've established that already

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Goddess Kali
We've established that already
The rest of what you are saying is not convincing to me. You seem to have some idea that Karma has to do with fairness and that is why you don't believe in it. I wouldn't believe in that either, fortunately, Karma has nothing to do with fairness.

Goddess Kali
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The rest of what you are saying is not convincing to me. You seem to have some idea that Karma has to do with fairness and that is why you don't believe in it. I wouldn't believe in that either, fortunately, Karma has nothing to do with fairness.


I never said Karma has anything to do with fairness, and I never said I don't beleive in it...where do you get this from ?


I simply beleive that chance is a part of cause and effect, I do not beleive it is unrelated.


Ex:


Cause: I ask a guy out... I ask him upfront, nicely, and clearly....


Effect 1: He smiles and says yes

Effect 2: He smirks and says no

Effect 3: He is speechless, i made him too nervous

Effect 4: He says, "yeah whatever"

Effect 5: He runs away



The same cause will not have the same effect....in all situations. Chance is the uncertainty of what effect will occur. Chance is not independent or separate of or from circumstances and involved factors.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Goddess Kali
I never said Karma has anything to do with fairness, and I never said I don't beleive in it...where do you get this from ?


I simply beleive that chance is a part of cause and effect, I do not beleive it is unrelated.


Ex:


Cause: I ask a guy out... I ask him upfront, nicely, and clearly....


Effect 1: He smiles and says yes

Effect 2: He smirks and says no

Effect 3: He is speechless, i made him too nervous

Effect 4: He says, "yeah whatever"

Effect 5: He runs away



The same cause will not have the same effect....in all situations. Chance is the uncertainty of what effect will occur. Chance is not independent or separate of or from circumstances and involved factors.

Chance is a guessing game, but once the effect takes place, there is no more guessing. However, the effect that did not take place, would have never taken place.

Cause and effect are simultaneous, however, the effect awaits for the correct time to manifest its self. There is no chance.

Goddess Kali
I thought you didn't beleive in time....

leonheartmm
i think were getting bogged down by our definition of chance. simply its a question of perspective, if u look at the localised phenomenon of an asteriod hitting the earth. it was random and by chance since u cant know of all the asteroids paths and at best can say that there was a so n so perccent chance that the earth cud be hit n that happened. this is when ur looking at a localised closed system and dont know or cant predict events outside it with accuracy, just their rate of average occurance. thats why u call it random. on the other hand if were not confined to a localised area of space and can accurately see and predict the paths of all meteors and earth{their karma i believe} then we would know the FATE of the earth and any collisions that would happen{cause and affect principle, only comes into play if we know the history of sumthin precisely and their present} and all randomness would be gone as it was supposed to happen. its strictly a matter of perspective, hollistic or localised. if u see things in their entirety, then theres no CHANCE, if you look at individual things, then everything is chance. and shaky, what parallels can we draw between KARMA and FATE? or destiny.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by leonheartmm
i think were getting bogged down by our definition of chance. simply its a question of perspective, if u look at the localised phenomenon of an asteriod hitting the earth. it was random and by chance since u cant know of all the asteroids paths and at best can say that there was a so n so perccent chance that the earth cud be hit n that happened. this is when ur looking at a localised closed system and dont know or cant predict events outside it with accuracy, just their rate of average occurance. thats why u call it random. on the other hand if were not confined to a localised area of space and can accurately see and predict the paths of all meteors and earth{their karma i believe} then we would know the FATE of the earth and any collisions that would happen{cause and affect principle, only comes into play if we know the history of sumthin precisely and their present} and all randomness would be gone as it was supposed to happen. its strictly a matter of perspective, hollistic or localised. if u see things in their entirety, then theres no CHANCE, if you look at individual things, then everything is chance. and shaky, what parallels can we draw between KARMA and FATE? or destiny.

You are correct except for the idea that we have to know anything. Things have their own karma, and knowing is not required for the universe to work. We are part of the universe and therefore part of the universes karma.

Goddess Kali
I thought you didn't beleive in Time....

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Goddess Kali
I thought you didn't beleive in Time....

That is one of the reasons I believe that cause and effect are simultaneous.

Goddess Kali
Do you beleive that it is only the present which exists and moves ? That past and future are an illusion and do not exist in reality ?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Do you beleive that it is only the present which exists and moves ? That past and future are an illusion and do not exist in reality ?

Yes, to a degree. Time dilatation does exist.

Goddess Kali
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Yes, to a degree. Time dilatation does exist.



Do you mean Time exists as dilation, or that the only aspect of the concept of Time which exists is dilation ?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Do you mean Time exists as dilation, or that the only aspect of the concept of Time which exists is dilation ?

No. Time dilation is part of Relativity.

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