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Setting: Mustafar
All the terrain that was destroyed in their first fight has been rebuilt since. There are no conditions; both opponents may use whatever they have at their disposal, short of extra help, to finish it. Only one can survive.

***

I would bet on Obi-Wan, here -- he did it the first time, and he can do it again. Vader was unable to penetrate his defense on the Death Star, and with the terrain to move through, Obi-Wan's defensive abilities will become greater.

If you say Ben can beat Vader, then Dooku, who could pwn Ben, could pwn Vader
I say Vader takes this.

Or, alternatively, A>B>C arguments are inherently flawed.

A>B>C arguments can be be true or wrong.
However, most people think Dooku can pwn Ben, if Ben can beat Vader, there's no way Vader>Dooku.

Saying that there's 'no way' that Vader could defeat Dooku if Obi-Wan could defeat Vader is puzzling. Each of the combatants have their own fighting styles, and their own abilities. Claiming that is akin to claiming that since paper loses to scissors, there's no way it could beat rock -- it doesn't fit logically at all. Obi-Wan being able to defeat Vader has nothing to do with Vader being able to defeat Dooku.

Hold up, I swear down rock beats paper.

NJO Luke mega pwn Ben & does that mean Luke can't pwn Vader? A>B>C is only not suitable when A, B, & C are close.
Also, Ben>Vader is actually not true. So it is useless to debate Dooku>Ben>Vader.

"NJO Luke mega pwn Ben & does that mean Luke can't pwn Vader?"
No, it simply means that you can't tell the obvious flaws in relying on ABC logic. Each opponent is better than another for individual reasons, not because you think they can take a guy who took a guy who took another guy who could probably take that guy. Mace Windu beat Sidious, but Yoda, who is undeniably more "powerful" than Mace, only managed to stalemate Sidious.

Though I could be operating under flawed assumptions, I don't see why "Ben > Vader" would not be true.

Fact: Obi-Wan could and did hold off Vader's attacks in ANH.
Fact: Obi-Wan could and did competently take the offensive against Vader in ANH.
Fact: Obi-Wan, as of ROTS, was able to overcome Vader, on the same place where they're fighting in this match.

Obi-Wan was killed when and only when he allowed Vader to strike him down. Regardless of how other people might compare to Obi-Wan, he is capable of defeating Vader.

You think Vader is "full out" against Ben in ANH? You must be kidding me.
If Ben continued to fight Vader, I can see he is losing. Vader's force power would also be greater than that of Ben.

Did I say that Vader was "full-out" against Obi-Wan?

I did not. I said that Obi-Wan matched Vader, and that he was only killed when he allowed Vader to defeat him. Regardless of the intensity of the fight, the facts remain that Vader did not penetrate Obi-Wan's defense up until the moment that Obi-Wan ceased to do anything at all. Where you get your idea that Obi-Wan was losing as the fight continued, I'm not particularly sure.

In any event, Anakin's force power potential was greater than Obi-Wan's in their first battle, and in the long run, it didn't seem to do him much good at all. Obi-Wan's done little else but improve in Force power since he emerged from Mustafar that day; Vader has, in fact, been vastly degraded in the available power he can throw. Additionally, he is operating under the additional hindrances his suit will provide, in Mustafar's environment conditions.

If Ben didn't allow Vader to defeat him, he still loses at the end. Vader has more fighting experience too. He also has more experenice fighting in Volcano Planet.

No. There was no reason for OB1 to sacrifice himself if he could have won. Vader was stronger than OB1 at that time, had grown far more patient, and grown immensely in the force. The ONLY reason he won in ROTS was because Anakin was blinded by rage and made a bad choice. Had the fight continued, Anakin would have slaughtered OB1. It was no different on the Death Star, and would be no different here.

Vader has matured, grown, and learned from his mistakes. Surely someone of his caliber would not do the same thing he did the first time, as also, he wouldn't be in a fit of rage.

Vader takes this.

Also, the same is true form OB1. You said he took the complete offesnsive. And he could not penetrate Vader's defenses. Everything you're saying Vader failed, Ben did too.

Yes, Vader>Ben. Also, Vader would DEFINITELY not make that mistake he did in ROTS again.

Originally posted by Captain Bob
I would bet on Obi-Wan, here -- he did it the first time, and he can do it again.

Such a compelling argument, Robert. Now, here were two (of three, which the third doesn't apply) of the main supporting reasons as to why Obi-Wan was even able to overwhelm Darth Vader in RotS:

Originally posted by Advent
1. "Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior." (Revenge of the Sith, Ch 20)

Obi-Wan knew Anakin like the back of his hand, it's quite apparent that that was the main reason he was able to last so long. While the reverse is also true, the duel would be drawn out nonetheless. Especially if you consider the below.

2. Obi-Wan's plan was to constantly give ground to the point where it would be hard to strike down your opponents, or at least, so Anakin's wrath would be "slowed down". For example, platform jumping, lava skating, and the like. Had he stayed in one general area (i.e. like on the Invisible Hand), the duel definitely would've ended sooner.

1. He doesn't have this advantage anymore, or at the least, he wouldn't know Vader's technique anywhere remotely close to as well as he did before, given Vader's implemented elements from several different forms into his form.

The reverse, however, could be true, considering Obi-Wan still uses Soresu. Now, that doesn't account for much as we saw in ANH (although, the duel itself went 'unfinished'), but it detracts from your point that 'Obi-Wan did it once, he can do it again', as it was partly the reason he even contended as well as he did.

2. Ben Kenobi is slow, and unagile compared to his former self (likewise with Vader), and there's no way that he can use as many, if any at all, of the advantages that he had on Mustafar again. He needed to give ground to withstand Anakin, and resorting to all sorts of tactics. I'd love to see old Ben try lava skating for a second time. It's likely that they wouldn't go very far from the open spaces, seeing as they are both too hindered (in age, and physical limitations respectively) to move around like they did in RotS.

Now,

3. Darth Vader's force abilities have grown far too great for Kenobi to handle, as much is obvious through his masterful displays:

http://img462.imageshack.us/img462/4024/strongassteelap9.th.png
http://img462.imageshack.us/img462/4595/darkwomanbattlenc5.th.png
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/5696/tarkcommitzk7.th.png
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/4443/beastbattlejb4.th.png

The first scan simply shows that even Boba Fett hadn't felt power like that before (albeit, he's a non-Force sensitive), and his grip was described as "strong as steel". The second Vader bringing down trees with a clench of the fist (the humongous tree was already cut, however, the tree in the background was not). The third and fourth scan simply shows Vader's vast telekinetic abilities.

More or less to show Vader's prowess, and how much he's grown in the days since the incident on Mustafar, and how old Ben just doesn't compare in the least bit.

Of course, there's more, but there's a snowballs chance in hell that Obi-Wan could overwhelm Vader in this respect. So, even if Vader is lacking the necessary ability to take down Obi-Wan in lightsaber combat, he can triumph through usage of the force. Not only that, but throwing debris and shrapnel around is one of Vader's specialities to overwhelm an opponent, as he's done on several occasions (notably in ESB, and against Dark Woman - among others), and there's an abudance of that on Mustafar, IIRC.

Really, that's the factor that changes the entire fight.



Star Wars Insider, Issue 62 says the following about the duel:

"Classically, Form III allows Kenobi to hold off the Dark Lord but cannot bring him victory against the more powerful Form V". (Star Wars Insider, Issue 62, p. 35).

It seems the case that the duel was a stalemate for the time being, so it's not as if Obi-Wan was going to defeat Darth Vader, or had the upper hand in the duel. And seriously, the battle lasted all of a minute and twenty seconds, I'd go as far as to claim that Vader would've won had the duel went uninterrupted.



What? The most he could do is retreat into main control center, there's no way he could do as he'd done in RotS without putting himself at a great risk - greater than whatever advantage he might have gained.

Anyways, Vader takes this.

Hmm, well I'd put Vader slightly above Ben overall, Ben could maybe do it on Mustafar - he'd be betetr at avoiding falling rocks and lava that tries to fall on him and such, as Vader can't do acrobatics and is slower in his suit. If Ben jumps onto an object floating in the river, and Vader tries to follow him, he *might* not make it. Definitely a close match-up, though.

try to argue your "Old been is faster than younger OB1" perspective...I honestly want to see what Advent has to say about that...

Old "been" is faster than younger OB1?
Who said that Old Ben is faster actually?

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
try to argue your "Old been is faster than younger OB1" perspective...I honestly want to see what Advent has to say about that...
Old Ben, in the Cantina, WAS faster than AOTC Kenobi, and if she'd wanted to debate with me she would have in the Ben vs. AOTC Kenobi thread.

So now you're just saying in the cantina, not on a whole? And not necessarily. She may not have visited that thread.

By using those Vader supporter's idea, this isn't really a fight. Vader just pwn Ben by force crush.

Originally posted by Advent
snip

This is indeed all true, and so your many excellent reasons have proven to me conclusively the outcome of the fight.

It is possible that Obi-Wan would take the chance and go out into the lava anyway; it would be near suicide, but he doesn't have much else to lose at this point. Vader's flexibility has decreased since their previous fight on Mustafar, and there's the chance, though extremely remote, that he could bring Vader down with him, at least if Vader actually came out with him instead of simply throwing things at him with the Force. However, since the most likely good outcome here is both opponents dying, it isn't enough to count as a legitimate victory, even if it was to happen (and that's extremely remote, as it relies entirely on Vader deliberately and purposefully being an idiot and walking into undue danger).

So it would seem that my original judgement was indeed flawed, and that Vader would win, and decisively as well.

Kudos!

Wow, we finally get a new member that isn't lacking intelligence for once, lol. Thank Buddha. You should get involved in some other threads.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Hmm, well I'd put Vader slightly above Ben overall, Ben could maybe do it on Mustafar - he'd be betetr at avoiding falling rocks and lava that tries to fall on him and such, as Vader can't do acrobatics and is slower in his suit. If Ben jumps onto an object floating in the river, and Vader tries to follow him, he *might* not make it. Definitely a close match-up, though.

Only this time, Vader has grown in force ability and knowledge, isn't mentally reduced by his hatred, and is a master at using the environment to his advantage. Vader would look at Old Ben disapprovingly and merely flip over whatever he is standing on.

Or Kenobi can lose in a semi-prolonged duel.

Or if Ben did try to lava surf again, Vader could simply cause a wave of lava to consume Ben.

Then why Vader don't use force crush?

Because, he was mocking him. He wanted to do it blade to blade. If he had just blasted forth with fire and brimstone, crushing him into a pulpy mass, that's not showing him his lesson, he was talking down to him.

If he had done that it would have been like... like... http://youtube.com/watch?v=3vbtpr6XWy4

No, I mean in this fight. The author said they can use whatever they have.

Jesus Christ man, let go of the fcuking force crush move from the other thread. Everytime you bring it up in you sarcastic adolescent demeanor, you give everyone more and more reason to believe you're a 12 year old with an inferiority complex. Drop it. You sound stupid.

What's wrong with that? Vader can't use crush in this fight?

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Only this time, Vader has grown in force ability and knowledge, isn't mentally reduced by his hatred, and is a master at using the environment to his advantage. Vader would look at Old Ben disapprovingly and merely flip over whatever he is standing on.

Or Kenobi can lose in a semi-prolonged duel.
But if Ben jumps onto the lava, Vader will still try to follow him, otherwise neither of them could win, and he *might* not make it. And if Vader tried to Force Push Kenobi off whatever he was standing on, they'd both die, as Kenobi could try and block it and they'd both end up flying back (like in the Mustafar Control room in ROTS).

In a duel I would give it to Vader, too, but he does have the disadvantage of being less acrobatic so he might not be able to jump around above the lava quite as easily as Ben. Which could be bad for him.

Originally posted by vader11
What's wrong with that? Vader can't use crush in this fight?

Its not that. Its that ever since Kadesh said that Vader's crush is instant, you've said it whenever Vader is mentioned and although in text, the underlying sarcasm is all too evident. It's like if you find out your girlfriend gave a lot of dudes head before you got together, anytime you might be arguing or around a guy, you might say, 'Well why don't you just give him head?" Not saying it to be serious, but saying it to be a dick. Same thing here.

OK. But Vader still win this fight.

Originally posted by darthsith19
But if Ben jumps onto the lava, Vader will still try to follow him, otherwise neither of them could win, and he *might* not make it. And if Vader tried to Force Push Kenobi off whatever he was standing on, they'd both die, as Kenobi could try and block it and they'd both end up flying back (like in the Mustafar Control room in ROTS).

In a duel I would give it to Vader, too, but he does have the disadvantage of being less acrobatic so he might not be able to jump around above the lava quite as easily as Ben. Which could be bad for him.

Please show me when ANH Ben has shown the slightest ability to be acrobatic. He could barely walk through the dunes without almost stumbling and falling on his face.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Please show me when ANH Ben has shown the slightest ability to be acrobatic. He could barely walk through the dunes without almost stumbling and falling on his face.
He was walking fine through the desert. Kenobi likely isn't as acrobatic as he used to be, but he is still likely more acrobatic than a guy who has mechanical legs.

In the movie, Vader didn't seem like slower than Ben.

Originally posted by vader11
In the movie, Vader didn't seem like slower than Ben.
At saber dueling, no, but ben proved that he was faster because of what happened in the cantina.

Originally posted by darthsith19
He was walking fine through the desert. Kenobi likely isn't as acrobatic as he used to be, but he is still likely more acrobatic than a guy who has mechanical legs.

Didn't GG have mechanical legs? Hmm...

And no, when he first walked up on Luke, he was kind of stumbling. And one part in a cantina scene doesn't trump everything else we see in the movie.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Please show me when ANH Ben has shown the slightest ability to be acrobatic. He could barely walk through the dunes without almost stumbling and falling on his face.

Look at Yoda when he moves around with his walking stick....
Then look at Yoda fighting...

Really. Obviously older force users or such that suffered some physical damage (like Vader) do need the force to aid their movements more than younger once. Still. Look at Dooku in the PT. He's in his 80s and still far away from looking "old" during combat. I don't see, why Obi-Wan with 60 or Vader being in his 40s should be less acrobatic than Dooku. In fact there are serveral sources which do show Vader performing some rather artistic movements even when he's in his suit and I'm sure Obi-Wan would also be able to kick some major ass in that department.

Back to the topic:
ANH Vader would destroy ANH Obi-Wan. As far as I remember Obi-Wan even thinks himself that he can't defeat Vader (ANH novelization) and hence he basically "gives up" to ensure that Luke and his friends are able to escape. You just have to think about the statement of Lucas that Vader, even in his suit, is still 80 % as powerful as Sidious himself. Had Vader tried to kill Obi-Wan with the force in ANH the fight would have been far shorter imho.

Making your yearly visit to KMC, Nai?

Vader would win, he was certainly more powerful in ANH, and its not like Ben Kenobi seemed that agile anyway.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Didn't GG have mechanical legs? Hmm...

And no, when he first walked up on Luke, he was kind of stumbling. And one part in a cantina scene doesn't trump everything else we see in the movie.
GG was fast, but not acrobatic. The one scene proves his speed, there's no reason to disregard that scene. He doesn't stumble, either.

No, if he was "so fast" one minute against a non force user, then he's slow against someone where speed would matter, then ya know what? He's not that fast in all his movements...

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
No, if he was "so fast" one minute against a non force user, then he's slow against someone where speed would matter, then ya know what? He's not that fast in all his movements...
Doesn't matter, so if Yoda had only ever fought against Dooku in AOTC and never in ROTS then by that logic he'd still be slow since that was just one scene? Lol, no, that logic doesn't work, if he's fast once then he can be just as fast again, even if he never displayed such speed again, unless there's proof that the speed diminished, which there isn't, then that's how fast ANH Kenobi is capable of being.

that logic does work, cause Ben wasn't fighting then, he merely moved his arms once. That in no way means he could constant;y keep that seed up throughout the duration of a duel. He was nowhere near being fast in his duel against Vader, when it counted...besides, Lucas said that the fight was slow and uncoordinated because it was an old man vs a half man, half cyborg...so right there, there's no more debate...he was slow, and not up to the dueling standards of the PT era...which includes his AOTC self...

Ben must be slower than before, but I don't know how much slower. Even if he wasn't try his best when fight Vader in ANH, I don't think he can much faster than that.

He isn't. And although this isn't the AOTC OB1 vs. ANH Ben thread, even in comparing the two bar scenes, Alec Guiness is simply NOT as fast as Ewan McGregor...simple as that. Vader wins this cause he is simply the better warrior. More powerful and proficient in the force, a hell of a lot stronger, despite the hindrance of the suit, more mobile and agile...he's just better. All the ben fanboys can argue against that all they want, but it doesn't change it. If Ben had nothing to lose by beating Vader in ANH, then he would have. but he couldn't so he sacrificed himself...