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did sidious purposely loose to mace knowing that aniken would come?

I say no.

No, George Lucas already said that Mace overpowered Sidious.

Ya, but only overpowered him in saber

which states he wasn't faking until his initial lightning attempt failed.

Oh, yes...

He legitimately got knocked down and overpowered, what he was faking was his, "I'm too weak" spiel, in order to turn Anakin. GL also stated that he was going to make Anakin already be a Sith when that scene happened, and make him have to help Sidious kill Mace, yet giving us another indication that Mace could and did best Sidious.

Agreed. Though, to be honest, I can safely tell you that this is all from Sam Jackson's "not wanting to go out like a punk" demand from Lucas.

Oh, yes. I remembered. If Jackson didn't request this, he is likely to be killed by Sidious' saber.
His purple saber is also Jackson's request.

Originally posted by vader11
Ya, but only overpowered him in saber Yup, he sabre raped him, OMG..!!! weep

Originally posted by Gideon
Agreed. Though, to be honest, I can safely tell you that this is all from Sam Jackson's "not wanting to go out like a punk" demand from Lucas.

Would you say no to Shaft?

Lean how to spell "Anakin" then we'll talk.

Sidious held back. There's a bunch of points supporting such a thing, but I only need to say two of them.

1. Around the middle of the duel, Sidious quite clearly had his saber up against Mace's chest, and could have just pushed his saber forward, but chose not to. He could have ended the duel there and then, so the fact that he didn't strongly suggests that he was holding back.

2. Against a stronger opponent (Yoda), his increase in skill was exponential. He was literally moving roughly 3 times faster, and was generally much more ferocious. Now usually a stronger opponent makes it harder for you to fight as skillfully as a weaker opponent would allow, yet the opposite happened in Sidious' case, which quite firmly indicates that he held back against Mace.

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
Sidious held back. There's a bunch of points supporting such a thing, but I only need to say two of them.

1. Around the middle of the duel, Sidious quite clearly had his saber up against Mace's chest, and could have just pushed his saber forward, but chose not to. He could have ended the duel there and then, so the fact that he didn't strongly suggests that he was holding back.

2. Against a stronger opponent (Yoda), his increase in skill was exponential. He was literally moving roughly 3 times faster, and was generally much more ferocious. Now usually a stronger opponent makes it harder for you to fight as skillfully as a weaker opponent would allow, yet the opposite happened in Sidious' case, which quite firmly indicates that he held back against Mace. Wasn't George Lucas already said that Mace overpowered Sidious?

And? Why do people always bring that up as if it changes anything? We both watched the same movie you know, I quite clearly saw that Sidious was overpowered, however I believe that evidence points to Mace doing so only because Sidious was holding back, as he indeed was.

Mace had the advantages of shatterpoint and Vapaad that Yoda was without, so like you said before, you tend to look better against a lesser opponent, in this particular case that being Yoda.

Done:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=427119

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
Sidious held back. There's a bunch of points supporting such a thing, but I only need to say two of them.
No there aren't.


Good lord, you do not know how to interpret a damn thing. There is NOTHING to suggest he was holding back against Mace. The only thing to suggest is that he underestimated Mace and got wtfpwned for it.


Exponential? Hardly, if you mean he either was disarmed or put his saber away and fled. Furthermore, Mace would do better against Sidious logically, considering he has Vaapad and shatterpoint, which would both work better against the darkside than whatever Yoda has. So once again, your argument fails.

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
Sidious held back. There's a bunch of points supporting such a thing, but I only need to say two of them.

1. Around the middle of the duel, Sidious quite clearly had his saber up against Mace's chest, and could have just pushed his saber forward, but chose not to. He could have ended the duel there and then, so the fact that he didn't strongly suggests that he was holding back.

2. Against a stronger opponent (Yoda), his increase in skill was exponential. He was literally moving roughly 3 times faster, and was generally much more ferocious. Now usually a stronger opponent makes it harder for you to fight as skillfully as a weaker opponent would allow, yet the opposite happened in Sidious' case, which quite firmly indicates that he held back against Mace. You're actually trying to contradict Lucas?

Nebaris, I tried to argue this a long time ago. I agree that it is highly coincidental and the fight scene itself is ridiculous (he is correct about the part where Mace is open to one of Sidious's attacks) and the "creepy-Palpatine-voiceover" in the Jedi Council room that persuades Anakin to go is simply suspicious...

However, George Lucas has stated that Sidious was overpowered in their duel. The only possible way that you could argue that is if you can prove that you can be "overpowered" while not fighting to the best of your ability; that steps into the semantics territory, and it's one I won't argue in.

But, from an in-universe perception, Mace Windu would - actually - be the more difficult opponent for Sidious. He is equipped with a mastery of Shatterpoint (which is aeon's above Yoda's) and Vaapad is the deadliest lightsaber form with an added bonus against dark siders. Yoda lacks both, and though he is "more powerful" than Mace (as is Sidious), he is likely not as effective against dark side wielding opponents.

Ya, that can explain why Mace can beat Sidious but Yoda cannot, and that doesn't mean Mace can beat Yoda in a duel.

Its not that Yoda CAN'T, its just he didn't. If that bar that Sidious grabbed onto didn't just appear from one scene to the next, he would of fallen too along with Yoda giving them again, equal ground. Had the fight continued, I believe that Yoda {i]could have won.

Even if Yoda could have won, Mace can still fight Sidious better than Yoda due to the mastery of Shatterpoint and Vaapad.

If Sidious uses the force like he did against Yoda, I believe Mace would be cooked anyway.

^ That also supports Sidious holding back. Why not just use the force, his forte, if he was going all out?

And about the 'overpowering' issue, since when can't you overpower someone who's holding back? Overpowering is simply overcoming through superior force, so how does that prove that Sidious wasn't holding back?

1 more thing, I really don't see where all this Mace being better against darksiders than Yoda bs is coming from. Simply because of his Shatterpoint talent, and Vaapad? People overrate those abilities way too much, and what you're saying (that Mace > Yoda in relation to darksiders) heavily contradicts the RotS novelisation, when Yoda is labelled as the most dangerous foe that the darkside has ever known. Now if Mace really were the better of the two in relation to darksiders, then wouldn't Mace be labelled as such, and not Yoda? That quote alone proves all of these biased views about Shatterpoint and Vaapad wrong. They're not that impressive, and they don't make that great a difference. Yoda is solidly above Mace, against lightsiders or darksiders. Get over it guys.

Originally posted by vader11
Even if Yoda could have won, Mace can still fight Sidious better than Yoda due to the mastery of Shatterpoint and Vaapad.

Yea if you go back and read, i was the first one to say that...

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
1 more thing, I really don't see where all this Mace being better against darksiders than Yoda bs is coming from. Simply because of his Shatterpoint talent, and Vaapad? People overrate those abilities way too much, and what you're saying (that Mace > Yoda in relation to darksiders) heavily contradicts the RotS novelisation, when Yoda is labelled as the most dangerous foe that the darkside has ever known. Now if Mace really were the better of the two in relation to darksiders, then wouldn't Mace be labelled as such, and not Yoda? That quote alone proves all of these biased views about Shatterpoint and Vaapad wrong. They're not that impressive, and they don't make that great a difference. Yoda is solidly above Mace, against lightsiders or darksiders. Get over it guys.

Good god shut up Noobaris. You're already a dumb human being but you look even dumber by arguing with facts. Mace IS technically better against darksiders because of his shatterpoint and Vaapad, which is perfect for darkside users, but Yoda is still more powerful than him. Nobody is overrating those abilities, but I love how you keep using the term "overrate" when your argument gets trumped time and time again. And no, nothing contradicts the novelization and if there WAS anything that did, it would be the movie which would be canon either way. Get over the fact that you are the worst debater on this forum and you still have yet to win an argument.

Originally posted by kamikz
If Sidious uses the force like he did against Yoda, I believe Mace would be cooked anyway.

If you're referring to the Force Lightning that Sidious used to knock away Yoda's lightsaber, he also used it against Mace when Mace and knocked him to the floor. I think that the reason why Mace's lightsaber wasn't knocked away was because he was physically stronger than Yoda was.

Anyway, I do think that Mace beat Palpatine in a fair fight. There was far too much at risk for the Sith for Palpatine to have taken the chance that Anakin, being unpredictable as it was, would have taken his side over the Jedi. On the matter of Sidious defeating Yoda, Sidious won because he gained the higher ground (like Obi-Wan) and the Clones were coming to his aid. Yoda knew he couldn't hold off Sidious in a Force battle and fight off a bunch of Clones at the same time.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Good god shut up Noobaris. You're already a dumb human being but you look even dumber by arguing with facts. Mace IS technically better against darksiders because of his shatterpoint and Vaapad, which is perfect for darkside users, but Yoda is still more powerful than him. Nobody is overrating those abilities, but I love how you keep using the term "overrate" when your argument gets trumped time and time again. And no, nothing contradicts the novelization and if there WAS anything that did, it would be the movie which would be canon either way. Get over the fact that you are the worst debater on this forum and you still have yet to win an argument.

Like you Sexy, I don't usually argue against people who aren't intelligent or attractive, however I'll make this an exception.

Now before I begin, I take it that we agree on Yoda being more powerful than Yoda, yes? Now what you need to comprehend is that it is your opinion that Mace's Shatterpoint talent and Vaapad makes him more powerful than Yoda against darksiders. Opinions don't override facts, and it's a fact that Yoda was 'the most powerful foe the darkness had ever faced' (granted it was from Yoda's PoV, but in this case, it can be accepted as fact, as he understands Shatterpoint and Vaapad more than anyone on this forum, and fully comprehends the advantages it gives against the darkside). Yoda was quite clearly universally the most powerful out of the two, against light or darksiders. That little line in the RotS novelisation makes this perfectly clear. Argue against it, or quit while you're behind.

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
Like you Sexy, I don't usually argue against people who aren't intelligent or attractive, however I'll make this an exception.
This coming from the dumbest person on this forum who gets wtfpwned in every debate.. Looks like the anti depressants are kicking in.



Yoda is more powerful but Mace's skills are more useful against the darkside. It's not my opinion that Mace is more useful, its fact, something you clearly have no concept of. Yoda is more powerful of the two but again, Mace is more useful against the darkside, which is why he beat Sidious and Yoda didn't. Keep arguing against facts, you apparently love getting wtfpwned.

Sexy, what don't you get about "the most powerful for that the darkside had ever faced?' As in, most powerful, specifically against the darkside.

Awww how cute, the one who always deems quotes inadmissable, and ambiguous, ends up using one because his argument failed. Guess what dumbass, Yoda IS the strongest foe darkness ever faced, but Mace's techniques are more useful. Get that through your skull so you don't embarass yourself further.

Nebaris, I'm not going to argue with you over your assertion that Mace's Vaapad and Shatterpoint are overrated. They are highly effective skills and weapons against dark side-based opponents (or any opponent), and that is concrete.

No one said that Mace was "more powerful" than Yoda in any aspect, and if they did, they're dead wrong. I simply proposed that he is more effective - and he is. He floored Sidious on Coruscant and had Dooku on the run on Boz Pity. The same Dooku who knowingly threw himself into a fight with Yoda, twice. I'm not suggesting - nor am I implying - that Mace is stronger than Yoda in Force skills or in lightsaber skills. But the fact remains that he has proven himself to be more effective than Yoda in regards to dark side opponents. It is because, as the RotS novelization has elaborated upon, Mace (when immersed in Vaapad) can draw upon the power of the dark side and turn it to his advantage. You would have to be leagues above him in the Force or lightsaber skills to overcome him, and while Sidious is certainly the more capable Force user, he isn't that much better than Mace that he could simply blow him away. You'd pretty much need to be a DE Sidious-level Sith Lord, likely, to crush someone of Mace's calibre.



First, Nebaris would have a convincing argument if not for Lucas's own words ("Mace overpowered Sidious" in the RotS commentary). The coincidences and circumstances were simply too unusual for it. Sidious could annihilate three of the Order's most capable swordsmen (and one of them, Sidious killed while attacking Mace!) but suddenly loses to Mace?

a.) There's reason to believe that Palpatine communicated with Anakin via the Force while Anakin was in the Council chambers. His voice can be overheard saying: "Without me, all hope of saving her is lost". This isn't an excerpt of their earlier conversation, it's an entirely new line.

b.) We know Sidious's goal was to convert Anakin. He'd been testing him and preparing him for years.

c.) The timing of Anakin's arrival and Sidious's defeat is too suspicious.

But, I will not defy Lucas, nor do I believe anyone else should. Lucas said Mace overpowered Sidious, so I believe it.



a.) Name a source (and give me specifics) that detail that Clonetroopers were coming.

b.) Sidious and Yoda fought each other to a standstill. During their lightsaber duel, they both exchanged the offensive and defensive (Sidious pushed Yoda back off of the Chancellor's position on the podium, as well).

Both of them were obvious equals and the fight ended in a stalemate. Sidious was just lucky that he didn't get his brains dashed out on the Senate floor.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Yea if you go back and read, i was the first one to say that... Yes, I know.

clearly he was holding back.

Sidious already knew Anakin was coming, which is why he PURPOSEFULLY lost:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=7636224

Where does it stated that Sidious knew Anakin was coming?

Can i say one thing? ok.....Here is how i see it. In a Nut Shell Sidious had a style that mace could fight Yoda had a style that Mace was weak aginst Sidious had a style that Yoda was weak aginst and mace was strong aginst...Some Jedi have more experience and more ability to cope with some different styles that some jedi cannot. FOR EXAMPLE

Example 1 : Anakin Beating Dooku in a Saber duel when OBI-WAN could not Note. Obi-Wan Beat anakin on Mustafar.

Example 2 : Qui-Gon-Jinn was bested by Darth Maul when Obi Wan could beat Maul Note. Qui-Gon-Jinn was more powerful at the time.

Example 3 : Mace Windu Defeating Palpatine when Yoda could not Note : Yoda was more powerful and expericened

THERE YOU GO

I just gotta question the "overpowered" quote a bit. I mean, sure, Lucas said he overpowered Sidious, but that doesn't mean that Sidious must have been fighting his best. I mean, to overpower a faking Sidious = Overpower a full out going Sidious. If we have proof to support Sidious was faking it, couldn't it be used?

Exactly, it seems people don't comprehend the meaning of the word 'overpower.'

Now getting back to who is more powerful against darksiders, yes, Mace has an extreme talent with Shatterpoint and mastery of Vaapad, and yes, those are two advantages he possesses that Yoda doesn't, however nobody here can quantify the advantages that they offer against darksiders and claim that the advantages are to such a degree that they make Mace a bigger threat against darksiders than Yoda, despite Yoda being more powerful.

Now let's go back to the quote in the RotS novelisation - 'most powerful foe that the darkness has ever known.' In this context, 'most powerful' actually means 'most powerful against darksiders,' as in respect to the story, how powerful Yoda is against non-darksiders is completely irrelevant, as they are not his enemies, and he would never be facing them. When somebody is labelled as 'most powerful' in such a context, it mean 'most powerful against his enemies,' it's that simple.

So to go back to my earlier point, despite those two advantages that Mace possesses, Yoda is still the more powerful against his enemies than Mace is. So again, the fact that Palpatine's skill and ferocity increased by such a substantial degree makes it pretty obvious that he was going easy on Mace.

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
Exactly, it seems people don't comprehend the meaning of the word 'overpower.'
1. to overcome, master, or subdue by superior force
Golly gee Noobaris, I guess GL is still correct and your bullshit assumptions aren't.


Yes we can quantify the advantages because they were good enough to defeat Sidious while Yoda was not.


So you twist two different quotes in your favor, how cute. That quote means that he was the most powerful and dangerous being the darkside will ever know, while Mace was the most effective.. "It's that simple".


Right, which is why Mace defeated Sidious and Dooku ran from him while Yoda stalemated Sidious and Dooku chose to fight him. Good point there jackass.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Awww how cute, the one who always deems quotes inadmissable, and ambiguous, ends up using one because his argument failed. Guess what dumbass, Yoda IS the strongest foe darkness ever faced, but Mace's techniques are more useful. Get that through your skull so you don't embarass yourself further.

Well, that's uh... ha ha, kinda, well, you know... mean?

Anyway, I agree. About Mace's fighting style, that is. And techniques. But when it came to the Force, Yoda was definately more of a threat to the Dark Side.

Originally posted by Council#13
Well, that's uh... ha ha, kinda, well, you know... mean?

Anyway, I agree. About Mace's fighting style, that is. And techniques. But when it came to the Force, Yoda was definately more of a threat to the Dark Side. Yes, I agree. Even if Sidious was fighting full out, Mace would still beat him in a saber fight.

Originally posted by vader11
Yes, I agree. Even if Sidious was fighting full out, Mace would still beat him in a saber fight.

Sweet. I gained support.

Sidious didn't lost on purpose, he wanted to rule the universe and if he lost to Mace(fake or real), there was a good chance, that Mace was going to kill him, i don't think Sidious would take that chance and he didn't know for sure that Anakin would join him. So, he had no reason to fake it, Mace is just a better swordsman.

Agree.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Sidious didn't lost on purpose, he wanted to rule the universe and if he lost to Mace(fake or real), there was a good chance, that Mace was going to kill him, i don't think Sidious would take that chance and he didn't know for sure that Anakin would join him. So, he had no reason to fake it, Mace is just a better swordsman.

That's right, but weren't you arguing that Dooku > Mace in lightsabers? Logic, my friend, should become your friend.

Originally posted by Gideon
That's right, but weren't you arguing that Dooku > Mace in lightsabers? Logic, my friend, should become your friend. Really? I think he would agree that Mace would win before

Originally posted by vader11
Really? I think he would agree that Mace would win before

No. He's argued it before, as has Rampant. Both of them place Dooku above Mace, when it simply isn't true.

Originally posted by Gideon
That's right, but weren't you arguing that Dooku > Mace in lightsabers? Logic, my friend, should become your friend.

Unless, i think Dooku is better then Sidious with sabers.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Unless, i think Dooku is better then Sidious with sabers.

Well, that's a nice thought and all, but it would require two things: a.) evidence and b.) a good argument. When you try to argue Dooku's superiority over a character, you usually fall short of both.

Oh, and since you have also agreed that Sidious and Yoda are equals, explain to me something - how could this be if Sidious were inferior to Yoda in a lightsaber duel, since his Force prowess isn't above Yoda's in any respect?

Unless of course you're implying that Dooku > Sidious in lightsaber skills, which would make Yoda > Sidious in lightsaber skills by a considerable amount (given how Yoda managed to force Dooku to flee without putting forth his strongest effort). Yet, this is clearly contradicted by the RotS movie: Yoda, going full out, is only able to stalemate Sidious in a lightsaber duel. In fact, Sidious manages to make Yoda lose ground during their duel on the Chancellor's podium, and forces him to change positions. This would imply a near-equal mastery of a lightsaber, since Yoda never once breached his defenses (and this is when Yoda, again, is going full out against his opponent).

So, in either case, you'd be wrong.

And Mace would still beat Dooku. Sorry.

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud


1. Around the middle of the duel, Sidious quite clearly had his saber up against Mace's chest, and could have just pushed his saber forward, but chose not to. He could have ended the duel there and then, so the fact that he didn't strongly suggests that he was holding back.



Just adding my two cents. When Sidious does that, Mace defends himself by spreading and going back. Not to mention, Mace was focusing on the blade, if Sidious was to push, it would be easy to counter. Watch fencing.

Heres the video

JVhuIRgYM0 (2:01 - 2:010)

In fact, Sidious indeed pushes the saber further. But like I said, Mace countered it.

Again, Mace's victory is attributed to his shatterpoint abilities, which make him more successful against darkside users, but still less powerful than Yoda.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Again, Mace's victory is attributed to his shatterpoint abilities, which make him more successful against darkside users, but still less powerful than Yoda. Since Yoda isn't darksider.

Originally posted by vader11
Since Yoda isn't darksider.
Uh, learn how to read. I didn't say Yoda was a darksider. I said that while Mace's abilities allow him to be more successful and efficient against darksider users, Yoda is still more powerful than him.

I never say you said that. Indeed I am agreeing with you. I mean Mace is more efficient against darksiders than Yoda. But when Mace fight Yoda, Yoda would win since Yoda isn't a darksider so Mace doesn't have an advantage.

Hmm. As much as I'd hate to say it, I say it's a possibility since say if Sidious didn't hold anything back (assuming if he was holding back at all, which I don't think he was), he would've killed Mace, which Anakin would've pitied him for doing, and thus he'd be less likely to join the dark side. In order for Sidious' plan to work, he needed to make himself seem weaker than he actually was (and make himself look helpless to an extent) so that it would seem Mace had the upper hand on him, in order for Anakin to turn to the dark side by saving Palpatine's life by killing Mace in the process.

That's what some of my fellow Star Wars fans brought up one time before, but I can't help but kind of think they assume too much, even though they could be right...

Frankly the pendulum swings either way in this argument.