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in about 1 minute all of the americans on this website is going to hate me, and think i'm a total *******, which i'm not i actually know someone who's dad had to clean up the towers, and that brought him to retiring.

9/11
i know it was a terrible thing that happenned to america, the people died and everything, but america really needs to move on and accept it as past history like they did with Pearl Harbor, WW2, and WW1, all very horridable times, all milatary movements, and i think like PH, 9/11 was a milatary movement aswell, or just an act the government put up to use fear to help rule. anyway it is pretty much the only foriegn attack on america besides PH, and it's such a huge deal, it's like a city was taken out. in 6 years there as been 3 movies, almost as if somebody doesn't want anybody toforget those horridable moments, while PH has only had 2 or 3 movies in over 50 years. so what i wanna know why is 9/11 such a huge deal, so many things go on in europe everyday, you don't see them complaining and making movies about everysingle attack. and really casting nick cage in 9/11 is just awful he's a crapptacular actor, he prettymuch ruined skullrider (that and the storyline was extremely simple) and United 93 is a completly awful movie, trying to make a uge 2 and a half hour movie that lasted less time than that was crappy

I think you are being selfish about this. There are people who have lost loved ones; you can't ask them to forget.

i live in jersey, so 9/11 isnt some trend here. you dont have to look far to meet people who had lost someone then. in the face of world tragedy its not much at all, yet the shock and horror of it all is what amplified that tragedy.

PH was a military operation, and a sound one. 9/11 was the murder of 3000+ people, which was superficial to their plans. the real plan was an attempt to cripple our economy through fear. worked like a charm, since through fear we allow bush to cripple our economy for years to come. so while some will kneejerk and say it was simply terrorism and murder, i guess it can be argued that it was a military operation in the sense that it's sole intention was to cripple the nation, as opposed to just doing it to terrorise for the sake of making some point, or just killing people for the hell of it.

WTF do you know about 9/11? Seriously.

I'll let someone else bash you.

We live in different times. EVERYBODY saw 9-11. Only a relatively few saw Pearl Harbor.

And unfortunately, 9-11 has changed this administrations philosophy on how to govern the US. Until Bush is gone, don't expect to see ANY change. 9-11 has become a political/military event thats signaled a drastic change in American government...just LIKE Pearl Harbor...just like the Civil War. A little bit of comparative American History will show you that...there's nothing really to be all up in arms about imo.

Originally posted by The big EH
9/11
it's like a city was taken out. Oh, you mean like Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

It is something hard to forget and yes there were alot of people who dead.Building the twin towers again I think is a mistake.How they have it now is fine but not to put it up again.jm

proud to be a Canadian..


....

As spectacular as it was, Americans have NO idea about what actual devastation is.

WHy do you say that?jm

Because 2 buildings and 3000 odd people is nothing. Americans need to look at things in perspective...however, they need to actually LEARN to have perspective first.

Originally posted by Alliance
As spectacular as it was, Americans have NO idea about what actual devastation is.

Yes, we are some what spoiled. I really don't want that to change.

Originally posted by Alliance
As spectacular as it was, Americans have NO idea about what actual devastation is.

im not trying to offend you or put you in a defensive stance, but that's a really stupid thing to say. everything is relative and to imply that it wasnt "actual devestation"....maybe you just worded it wrong and didnt mean to suggest that?

Being we are spoiled and many again did lose there love ones we were not ready for this.Sure it is not as bad as what happen in the past but we were not around then.
This to us was scary becaues no one ever had an idea what this would happen to us Americans.jm

Sorry, did I miss the collapse of the US?

People's personal lives were devastated, they are every day...this is nothing unique to 9-11. How is a terrorist flying a plane into your loved one personally that different froma drunk teen drving his car into another?

Two bulding being knocked down is not having a city destroyed...not having a contry destroyed.

The changes AFTER 9-11 came from within.

It's the American way not to give a flying fvck about anything outside their country, until of course it affects them.

if that was addressed to me, read again

Originally posted by Schecter
it's sole intention was to cripple the nation, as opposed to just doing it to terrorise for the sake of making some point, or just killing people for the hell of it.

nowhere do i suggest that they succeeded in this, but rather only succeded in making us blind with fear and allowing those in power to erode our freedom. in other words 9/11 kinda pussified us. we claim that we have never been braver and more resolute, but in actuallity we have never been so irrational and chickenshit.

alienating and openly bashing us doesnt help the situation though, and only bloats the problem.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
This to us was scary becaues no one ever had an idea what this would happen to us Americans.jm

haermm Yeah, because the SAME people hadn't attacked the SAME target before.

Just American ignorance.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
It's the American way not to give a flying fvck about anything outside their country, until of course it affects them.

That is a over generalization.

You mean a group of citizens are more affected by an event related to their country over someone elses?! Wow, I think you've stumbled on a fascinating scientific discovery!

Originally posted by Schecter

alienating and openly bashing us doesnt help the situation though, and only bloats the problem.

Originally posted by Alliance
Just American ignorance.

in fact it makes you a big part of the problem

And I suppose every other countries citizens are "aware?"

Drop that shit. It is media propaganda. Don't make assumptions on the people of an entire country because of what you get from the tube.

No different from the racist topics.

Its a lot easier to judge when you live here.

people seem to bask in the bashing and hatred of people simply because of where they are born. normally such an attitude is condemnable, yet in the case of bashing americans its simply being hip and aware.

(not aimed at alliance, i just know this thread is going to be filled with "stupid americans" comments and i figured i'd nip it in the bud)

Originally posted by Alliance
Its a lot easier to judge when you live here.

I agree but it's no excuse for these sweeping statements you keep making. I can grab idiots of any country, video tape, and air it. What does that prove?

I have lived there, can't think of anywhere I've lived that I've disliked more.

Its not bashing becuase of birth...its bashing because of attitude.

There is a pervasive..."It doesn't affect me" attitude when it comes to Americans and the world. i think that is what people actually complain about.

Originally posted by Alliance
Sorry, did I miss the collapse of the US?

People's personal lives were devastated, they are every day...this is nothing unique to 9-11. How is a terrorist flying a plane into your loved one personally that different froma drunk teen drving his car into another?

Two bulding being knocked down is not having a city destroyed...not having a contry destroyed.

The changes AFTER 9-11 came from within.
How is a terrorist flying a plane different from a drunk driver? Is this a serious question? One is a drunk idiot doing something stupid, another is a group of individuals causing willful and malicious destruction. That's why 9/11 is so horrible. There was no declared war, there was no inclination for the public, we just woke up one day, like ever other day, and found out that 3,000 people had just died.

If you seriously can't understand how 3,000 civilians being murdered on American soil, something that has never happened before, is so devastating, then you aren't even qualified to enter a discussion about 9/11. Everything is relative. Three American soldiers being shot in Iraq by insurgents isn't that surprising. Three American soldiers being shot in, say, Japan would be.

Originally posted by Alliance
Its not bashing becuase of birth...its bashing because of attitude.

There is a pervasive..."It doesn't affect me" attitude when it comes to Americans and the world. i think that is what people actually complain about.

I agree, but who doesn't do that as a majority?

Originally posted by Alliance
Its not bashing becuase of birth...its bashing because of attitude.

There is a pervasive..."It doesn't affect me" attitude when it comes to Americans and the world. i think that is what people actually complain about.

That is an over generalization. I think it's true for some of larger cities but not in other parts of the nation.

Originally posted by Alliance
Its not bashing becuase of birth...its bashing because of attitude.

i understand, but at the sime time you need to understand that your words support those who simply hate americans. comments like "oh, there are like 1% who are actually intelligent dont help either. the more the world acts like prejudicial scum the more it justifies the isolationism of our more 'special' citizens and further mistrust for the rest of the world.

Originally posted by Alliance
Its not bashing becuase of birth...its bashing because of attitude.

There is a pervasive..."It doesn't affect me" attitude when it comes to Americans and the world. i think that is what people actually complain about.

Yeah exactly, I think the rest of the world feel that the American attitude is that they are the only country worth the time of day. I'm not by any means saying that all Americans are like this.

It's also the whole thing about the fact that the countries that do seem to get concern are English speaking. There have been plenty of terrorist attacks on places like Spain and Bali which are ignored or brushed aside.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That is an over generalization. I think it's true for some of larger cities but not in other parts of the nation.

Comming from a larger city and going to school in a more rural area, thats completely the opposite.

Originally posted by Schecter
i understand, but at the sime time you need to understand that your words support those who simply hate americans. comments like "oh, there are like 1% who are actually intelligent dont help either. the more the world acts like prejudicial scum the more it justifies the isolationism of our more 'special' citizens and further mistrust for the rest of the world.

I would simply say that Americans do the same to them. How is reciprocating, though immature, any more prejudicial?

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Yeah exactly, I think the rest of the world feel that the American attitude is that they are the only country worth the time of day. I'm not by any means saying that all Americans are like this.

yes you are. look:

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Yeah exactly, I think the rest of the world feel that the American attitude is that they are the only country worth the time of day.

Americans from rural areas and poorer incomes usually give more to charity than their urban counterparts. I don't really know how else to guage how much someone 'cares' about others, but that's a good estimate, I think. Making, of course, your point moot.

Originally posted by Kinneary
Americans from rural areas and poorer incomes usually give more to charity than their urban counterparts. I don't really know how else to guage how much someone 'cares' about others, but that's a good estimate, I think. Making, of course, your point moot.

how exactly does your own heresay, based on nothing we can read or see, render his point moot?

Originally posted by Kinneary
Americans from rural areas and poorer incomes usually give more to charity than their urban counterparts. I don't really know how else to guage how much someone 'cares' about others, but that's a good estimate, I think. Making, of course, your point moot. Since I was referenceing how much Americans care about non-Americans, I think your point about people donating to mostly American-focused charities is irrelevant.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
Being we are spoiled and many again did lose there love ones we were not ready for this.Sure it is not as bad as what happen in the past but we were not around then.
This to us was scary becaues no one ever had an idea what this would happen to us Americans.jm Yeah the country that raped almost half of Asia, half of Europe, the Natives and latinos of North and South America, African slaves, who do it for money but when they get attacked themself, they go all nucleur and bomb cities for no reason? Yeah, no one's ever gonna wanna attack that country are they?

Originally posted by Schecter
yes you are. look:

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick, I'm not condemning all Americans. What I'm saying is that this is how the American attitude as a collective can be viewed from the outside. It's not that all Americans act in this way; of course not, what I'm saying is that is how it can be perceived, which would be absurd. The point I'm making is that this has to be avoided, not, that I personally think all Americans act like this.

but you have to understand that saying that to an american is completely insulting. reminds me of the age old "compliment" to black people: "oh, your so clean and well spoken, not like most other black people. you're one of the good ones".

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/12/who_gives_to_charity.html

And just for kicks, this is for people who say that Americans only care about themselves.

http://press.arrivenet.com/business/article.php/897028.html

And how is any of this relevant for the topic?

A lot of the world hates America, in the country's that don't hate America there will be a lot of people that simply don't like the US. Especially with your current president. People don't look at individual Americans just at a group and the group they see isn't all that positive.

That does not mean that the US should just forget about 9/11 however. Ignore it or whatever, fact remains that 3000+ died in an attack on their country. Nobody should ever forget that. Doesn't mean they or specifically Bush should just use it as an excuse for every action he takes. But it's certainly not something people should just forget about.

Originally posted by Kinneary
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/12/who_gives_to_charity.html

lol @ john stossel.

sure, ill just trust that guy for objective journalism

zrX9Ca7LSyQ

Originally posted by lord xyz
Yeah the country that raped almost half of Asia, half of Europe, the Natives and latinos of North and South America, African slaves, who do it for money but when they get attacked themself, they go all nucleur and bomb cities for no reason? Yeah, no one's ever gonna wanna attack that country are they?

Seeing as how I had nothing to do with that, I'd like to not be put in that box. Not my legacy.

That's like saying all white Americans should take responsibility for slavery today

If everything worked that way, no one would ever drop anything.

Bad, bad logic.

Originally posted by Schecter
but you have to understand that saying that to an american is completely insulting. reminds me of the age old "compliment" to black people: "oh, your so clean and well spoken, not like most other black people. you're one of the good ones".

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that a lot of Americans are good natured people, just like a lot of any nation. What I am saying is that some Americans do need to broaden their cultural horizons, as these people are basing the 'war on terror' only on what has happened to their country.
You have deliberately ignored my post about the bombings in other countries which have been brushed aside.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen

You have deliberately ignored my post about the bombings in other countries which have been brushed aside.

I didn't. Wanna address what I said?

You are backing up from what you said at first. Syntax is very important here.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that a lot of Americans are good natured people, just like a lot of any nation. What I am saying is that some Americans do need to broaden their cultural horizons, as these people are basing the 'war on terror' only on what has happened to their country.
You have deliberately ignored my post about the bombings in other countries which have been brushed aside.

I AGREE that its wrong to trivialise the tragedies of other nations. however the universal reaction to this seems to be to trivialise the 9/11 tragedy in turn. so the ignorance seems to breed more ignorance.

though the words of you and others are well-meant, they are not well taken. thats what im saying. you seem to be assuming that im exclusively referring to you. i find it completely obtuse for anyone to act like this problem isnt a plague among people in other nations who say things like "americans are ignorant, etc". the fact that you dont feel this way may validate yourself, but thats not really what we're discussing, is it?

Originally posted by The big EH
and think i'm a total *******, which i'm not i actually know someone who's dad had to clean up the towers, and that brought him to retiring.

Oh, the father's brother's nephew's former roomate reasoning.

Originally posted by The big EH
United 93 is a completly awful movie, trying to make a uge 2 and a half hour movie that lasted less time than that was crappy

This guy lost all credibility at this point. The movie is 1 hour, 51 minutes long and in real time. It started at 8:14, I believe, and ended at 10:03 on Sept 11, 2001. The point he was trying to make about it being over sappy and too long was contradicted by...himself. Sad.

And say what you want about United 93's political whatever...the direction of Paul Greengrass in the last 2 minutes of the film is top-notch.

Originally posted by Schecter
I AGREE that its wrong to trivialise the tragedies of other nations. however the universal reaction to this seems to be to trivialise the 9/11 tragedy in turn. so the ignorance seems to breed more ignorance.

though the words of you and others are well-meant, they are not well taken. thats what im saying. you seem to be assuming that im exclusively referring to you. i find it completely obtuse for anyone to act like this problem isnt a plague among people in other nations who say things like "americans are ignorant, etc". the fact that you dont feel this way may validate yourself, but thats not really what we're discussing, is it?

No your right it isn't what we're discussing. I essentially do agree with you, I believe that people who say all Americans are ignorant are just as racist as someone who says that all people of Islamic faith are terrorists.

To be back on topic I don't think that any tragedy to the scale of 9/11 should be forgotten. However, it should never be used as an excuse to promote racial or religious hatred, that's sinking to the people behind 9/11's level.

everything i whould say has already been said

Originally posted by Schecter
im not trying to offend you or put you in a defensive stance, but that's a really stupid thing to say. everything is relative and to imply that it wasnt "actual devestation"....maybe you just worded it wrong and didnt mean to suggest that?

Man there is noone in america alive right now Xcept 4 a few soldiers who have seen real war. Compare that 2 Europe.

we gotta hook this guy up with JM.

?

nothing, i was just pondering on how to bring about the antichrist and armageddon...but thats off-topic of me.

Originally posted by The big EH
in about 1 minute all of the americans on this website is going to hate me, and think i'm a total *******, which i'm not i actually know someone who's dad had to clean up the towers, and that brought him to retiring.

9/11
i know it was a terrible thing that happenned to america, the people died and everything, but america really needs to move on and accept it as past history like they did with Pearl Harbor, WW2, and WW1, all very horridable times, all milatary movements, and i think like PH, 9/11 was a milatary movement aswell, or just an act the government put up to use fear to help rule. anyway it is pretty much the only foriegn attack on america besides PH, and it's such a huge deal, it's like a city was taken out. in 6 years there as been 3 movies, almost as if somebody doesn't want anybody toforget those horridable moments, while PH has only had 2 or 3 movies in over 50 years. so what i wanna know why is 9/11 such a huge deal, so many things go on in europe everyday, you don't see them complaining and making movies about everysingle attack. and really casting nick cage in 9/11 is just awful he's a crapptacular actor, he prettymuch ruined skullrider (that and the storyline was extremely simple) and United 93 is a completly awful movie, trying to make a uge 2 and a half hour movie that lasted less time than that was crappy America got over WWI when they won. They got over Pearl Harbor and WWII when they won the war.

America has yet to win anything against those who apparently committed 9/11. Almost everyone who was old enough to remember 9/11 is still alive, it hasn't been decades, it's been half of one.

The movies are an excellent marketing ploy to make money. Little else.

9/11 was the first in a new type of tragic world events. The London and Madrid bombings pale in comparison to magnitude, since 9/11 was more destructive and on soil many thought untouchable. It was bigger, and it was first. America's made of emotion, of all types, telling them to get over it in just six years, while two wars that were spawned by the event still "rage" on, is foolhardy at best.

Originally posted by Tangible God
9/11 was the first in a new type of tragic world events.

no it wasnt

Originally posted by Schecter
no it wasnt It's what I get for not specifying. Should have thrown Islamic extremism in there.

Originally posted by The big EH
9/11

9/11 was a terrible day. No one is arguing that. But, the hard part to swallow is just how hard it has remained in our memory. It's often called a day that changed everything. That simply is not true. It changed a lot, but it changed not one damn thing that really matters. President Bush told us to go out and shop, to maintain our way of life. Well, if you want to talk about a squandered opprotunity, one need look no further. We were told to go shopping, keep travelling, go to work, eat fast food, etc. The citizens of this country were willing to do damn near anything in the months after 9/11, and we didn't do anything. We weren't asked to do a damn thing.

Pearle Harbor was 1000X more influential than 9/11 will ever be. In the days, weeks and months that followed the bombings, Americans were asked to change their lives, pool their resources, help each other adjust.

I think it's a crime for this administration, for this government, to treat it like so much political propoganda. It changed everything when it needs to have changed everything. It changed everything when you go to pack for a plane ride, but that's just so much window dressing to give the illusion of safety and compotency. Otherwise, 9/11 only changed our spending habits. Now, we go to movies about that day and we buy collectors coins that commemorate it. "WE WILL NEVER FORGET" is a nice slogan, but it should be followed with "BUT WE HARDLY REMEMBER EITHER!"

Originally posted by lord xyz
Oh, you mean like Hiroshima and Nagasaki? definately not america's finest moments, definately not at all

Originally posted by Alliance
Because 2 buildings and 3000 odd people is nothing.

Thanks for clearing that up, I'll be sure to inform the families of those killed in the attack that their loss is "nothing".

*raises hand* 3 buildings fell "from a fire" that day.

Originally posted by The big EH
in about 1 minute all of the americans on this website is going to hate me, and think i'm a total *******, which i'm not i actually know someone who's dad had to clean up the towers, and that brought him to retiring.

9/11
i know it was a terrible thing that happenned to america, the people died and everything, but america really needs to move on and accept it as past history like they did with Pearl Harbor, WW2, and WW1, all very horridable times, all milatary movements, and i think like PH, 9/11 was a milatary movement aswell, or just an act the government put up to use fear to help rule. anyway it is pretty much the only foriegn attack on america besides PH, and it's such a huge deal, it's like a city was taken out. in 6 years there as been 3 movies, almost as if somebody doesn't want anybody toforget those horridable moments, while PH has only had 2 or 3 movies in over 50 years. so what i wanna know why is 9/11 such a huge deal, so many things go on in europe everyday, you don't see them complaining and making movies about everysingle attack. and really casting nick cage in 9/11 is just awful he's a crapptacular actor, he prettymuch ruined skullrider (that and the storyline was extremely simple) and United 93 is a completly awful movie, trying to make a uge 2 and a half hour movie that lasted less time than that was crappy
I'll tell you what I think and you can think what you want of me!
But I almost lost a cousin in the Twin Towers but thankfully I didn't.But I believe that sometimes there's something called going to far!
Right on the corner of My street there's a store that has been vandalized over and over again and Stolen from!People start to believe that all people with wraps on their heads are all Terrorist's!Well thats not true and some people need to remember that.And I think that everyone us and them are wrong!
They judge us by the way we look and act and we think their wrong but here we turn around a do the same thing!WTF!!!
So I told you think what you want of me!But I put my 2 sense in.
And I'm sorry if offend anyone.

sad really, millions die in africa, thousands massacred in palestine, over 2.5% of the population exterminated in iraq, hundrerds of thousands raped and murdered in kashmir, billions livin in worse than hell situations{children included} in south american islands/nations and world over and all we can think of are the victims of september eleventh. im not implying they should be forgotten/hated. as individuals who knew them, they should be remembered{just like all the other more pained ones who are forgotten} but as an ISSUE and PUBLIC discussion point, it should be abandoned as its been corrupted beyond repair because of its{actually minor historic significance} use in rationalisations to wipe out significant part of nations people and livelehoods. its worth NOTHING compared to them. on top of the fact that it has never been proven to be done by alqaeeda{no matter how much the media makes it seem so, there is no formal evidence or admittance} and the fact that it has, to all unbiased engineers and people who know even highschool physics{and have seen the recordings of what happened and pointed to the parts that matter} been almost proven to be an inside job as the buildings did not collapse from the impact of the planes{theres no evidence of a plane near the pentagon, NONE, no parts no debree not even vapourized metal colled deposits, and atleast one of the planes striking the twin towers was probably not civilian} and {also unconfirmed reports of there being absolutely no jews on a normal day in a large place with atleast a significant amount of jewish employees and businessmen}. whatever it was, it should at BEST be forgotten socially{not by the individuals concerned}. as the american nation's actions have disgraced the innocent victims to the extent. i lost sum people close to me there, and have close friends whove lost family{medics n such} in iraq, but it is the duty of even the victim's loved ones to not hype the social/political part of it anymore, inn respect for those who have died.

{btw im not a conspiracy theorist at all. im a sceptic who looks at the evidence and if u think what im saying is idiotic/far fetched/lack of facts, search some places online or some RESPECTABLE news channels not affiliated to the west like aljazeera/geo n lotsa other ones, ull see what im talkin about, stories were run on this for weeks and not for political gain or brainwashing{as those do exist, but this wasnt the same thing} im also an agnostic who is at best against islam/christianity etc, and am not anti jewish specifically, take that into account before making up your mind about what ive said.

the reason these stories are being hyped, recirculated and movies being made about it{for the most part} is for political gain, trying to keep the public scared and supporting the illegal/criminally corrupt bush administration, whose equal can perhaps not be found anywhere but in the third reich as far as the overall harm and willingness to decieve, hurt and take advantage of people you dont see as necessary goes{albeit, this one is far better at hiding its true face from the world}.

Originally posted by Firefighterchik
I'll tell you what I think and you can think what you want of me!
But I almost lost a cousin in the Twin Towers but thankfully I didn't.But I believe that sometimes there's something called going to far!
Right on the corner of My street there's a store that has been vandalized over and over again and Stolen from!People start to believe that all people with wraps on their heads are all Terrorist's!Well thats not true and some people need to remember that.And I think that everyone us and them are wrong!
They judge us by the way we look and act and we think their wrong but here we turn around a do the same thing!WTF!!!
So I told you think what you want of me!But I put my 2 sense in.
And I'm sorry if offend anyone. that post made no sense to me at all it totally switched topic, other than the fact that the people who did it were Iraqi

Originally posted by Schecter
im not trying to offend you or put you in a defensive stance, but that's a really stupid thing to say. everything is relative and to imply that it wasnt "actual devestation"....maybe you just worded it wrong and didnt mean to suggest that?

Originally posted by Devil King
9/11 was a terrible day. No one is arguing that. But, the hard part to swallow is just how hard it has remained in our memory. It's often called a day that changed everything. That simply is not true. It changed a lot, but it changed not one damn thing that really matters. President Bush told us to go out and shop, to maintain our way of life. Well, if you want to talk about a squandered opprotunity, one need look no further. We were told to go shopping, keep travelling, go to work, eat fast food, etc. The citizens of this country were willing to do damn near anything in the months after 9/11, and we didn't do anything. We weren't asked to do a damn thing.

Pearle Harbor was 1000X more influential than 9/11 will ever be. In the days, weeks and months that followed the bombings, Americans were asked to change their lives, pool their resources, help each other adjust.

I think it's a crime for this administration, for this government, to treat it like so much political propoganda. It changed everything when it needs to have changed everything. It changed everything when you go to pack for a plane ride, but that's just so much window dressing to give the illusion of safety and compotency. Otherwise, 9/11 only changed our spending habits. Now, we go to movies about that day and we buy collectors coins that commemorate it. "WE WILL NEVER FORGET" is a nice slogan, but it should be followed with "BUT WE HARDLY REMEMBER EITHER!"

Originally posted by Schecter
i live in jersey, so 9/11 isnt some trend here. you dont have to look far to meet people who had lost someone then. in the face of world tragedy its not much at all, yet the shock and horror of it all is what amplified that tragedy.

PH was a military operation, and a sound one. 9/11 was the murder of 3000+ people, which was superficial to their plans. the real plan was an attempt to cripple our economy through fear. worked like a charm, since through fear we allow bush to cripple our economy for years to come. so while some will kneejerk and say it was simply terrorism and murder, i guess it can be argued that it was a military operation in the sense that it's sole intention was to cripple the nation, as opposed to just doing it to terrorise for the sake of making some point, or just killing people for the hell of it. I find it humorous that people thin Bush crippled the economy, when he really did the best thing he could ever do for it.

You all know that war makes the economy go UP, right?Originally posted by The big EH
in about 1 minute all of the americans on this website is going to hate me, and think i'm a total *******, which i'm not i actually know someone who's dad had to clean up the towers, and that brought him to retiring.

9/11
i know it was a terrible thing that happenned to america, the people died and everything, but america really needs to move on and accept it as past history like they did with Pearl Harbor, WW2, and WW1, all very horridable times, all milatary movements, and i think like PH, 9/11 was a milatary movement aswell, or just an act the government put up to use fear to help rule. anyway it is pretty much the only foriegn attack on america besides PH, and it's such a huge deal, it's like a city was taken out. in 6 years there as been 3 movies, almost as if somebody doesn't want anybody toforget those horridable moments, while PH has only had 2 or 3 movies in over 50 years. so what i wanna know why is 9/11 such a huge deal, so many things go on in europe everyday, you don't see them complaining and making movies about everysingle attack. and really casting nick cage in 9/11 is just awful he's a crapptacular actor, he prettymuch ruined skullrider (that and the storyline was extremely simple) and United 93 is a completly awful movie, trying to make a uge 2 and a half hour movie that lasted less time than that was crappy That's because the Europeans have been through it. It's old news. 9/11 was the second attack on American soil, and the first unnecessary one. We can't forget a random, ruthless murder.

And Nickolas Cage is a good actor when he wants to be. He was pretty good in Lord of War.

Originally posted by Dreampanther

But...

Nobody, apart from a few journalists who are labeled as biased and 'unobjective', have really pursued the question of WHY people were driven so far over the edge that they felt willing to not only attack America, but also sacrifice their own lives in the process.

Instead, everybody - following Bush's lead - focused on vengeance and retaliation: A war on terrorism was declared

we wanted al qaeda brought to justice. take someone who has nothing to live for and offer them their families salvation, and you can get them to 'sacrifice' anything. you seem to think that the very notion that they would commit a suicide attack directly justifies their actions (or at least makes them sympathetic and in turn the u.s. and victims of 9/11 just asking for it). i find this to be completely presumptuous horseshit. sorry

No one is saying that the PEOPLE deserved to die...but America was very ignorant of what was giong on in the world.

Originally posted by Alliance
No one is saying that the PEOPLE deserved to die...but America was very ignorant of what was giong on in the world.

nor did i say that he implied that they deserved it.
his implication is clearly along the lines 'the idiots were asking for it'.

thanks btw for continuing to refer to 'america' as this solid entity of ignorance, all sharing the same views and opinions. gotta keep that myth going that america consists of 99.999999% idiots and .000001% smart people who are really canadians in disguise

Originally posted by Schecter
we wanted al qaeda brought to justice. take someone who has nothing to live for and offer them their families salvation, and you can get them to 'sacrifice' anything. you seem to think that the very notion that they would commit a suicide attack directly justifies their actions (or at least makes them sympathetic and in turn the u.s. and victims of 9/11 just asking for it). i find this to be completely presumptuous horseshit. sorry

My questions remain:

What, in your opinion, did America do to antagonise people to such an extent that they felt the need to plan an operation, do the training, infiltrate America, hijack the planes and fly them into the Towers, taking thousands of lives (including their own) in the process?

Might America's foreign policies have something to do with it?

Or are you trying to convince yourselves that these were the random acts of a few madmen?

Well...just kind of running throught the Reagan foreign policy ALONE should be sufficient.

Nothing as poetic as 9-11 could be termed "random:

Originally posted by Dreampanther
My questions remain:

What, in your opinion, did America do to antagonise people to such an extent that they felt the need to plan an operation, do the training, infiltrate America, hijack the planes and fly them into the Towers, taking thousands of lives (including their own) in the process?

Might America's foreign policies have something to do with it?

Or are you trying to convince yourselves that these were the random acts of a few madmen?

so let me get this straight. any intervention by america, corrupt of otherwise, justifies any and all attacks on u.s. citizens? so i guess once those planes hit the towers, by your logic, america was instantly justified in attacking any islamic militants they deemed a threat? seems that way. maybe 9/11, the u.s. occupations in the middle east, or whatever bloodbaths occur in the future, are NOT justified? or do you just want to run to the side of whomever strikes the u.s. with sympathy and understanding, while withholding the same evolved sensability from the other side? seems that way.

and please please ffs PLEASE, dont try that strawman nonsense about "random acts" as i never said that. you want to debate me or bush's neocon talking points? let me know so i dont end up wasting my time

Originally posted by Schecter
so let me get this straight. any intervention by america, corrupt of otherwise, justifies any and all attacks on u.s. citizens? so i guess once those planes hit the towers, by your logic, america was instantly justified in attacking any islamic militants they deemed a threat? seems that way. maybe 9/11, the u.s. occupations in the middle east, or whatever bloodbaths occur in the future, are NOT justified? or do you just want to run to the side of whomever strikes the u.s. with sympathy and understanding, while withholding the same evolved sensability from the other side? seems that way. and no, dont try that strawman nonsense about "random acts" as i never said that. you want to debate me or bush's neocon talking points? let me know so i dont end up wasting my time

Umm, deliberately misinterpreting what I say and twisting my statements seem to be unhelpful, to say the least.

I started my statement by saying: "Look, I feel sorry for everybody who died in 9/11, and all the families affected by it. And I'm not saying America had it coming - nobody deserves that."

Then I asked whether you think that perhaps America's foreign policies might have done something to antagonise people from a much weaker country so much that they felt the need to plan and execute such a horrific act, against a much stronger country - or whether you believe the attacks to be completely unprovoked.

Then you went on a rant, and you seem to be a bit over-defensive, to say the least.

Now, since we are talking about "u.s. occupations in the middle east", let me ask you another question: Do you think the Middle East will continue these kind of attacks if America withdraws from there, where it is clearly unwelcome?

Or do you think that America should continue to tell the Middle East what to do, and how to do it, and furthermore label everybody who responds negatively to this kind of interference as dissenters and potential terrorists?

Or, to put it another way: How would you react if armed troops pulled into your country, and told you your beliefs are wrong, your society is wrong, your religion is wrong, your government is wrong - and they used superior force of arms to lay down the law - THEIR LAW.

And you ask them to leave, you tell them America is YOUR country, not theirs, and that if they do not like the way you live they should go back to their country? And they refuse, and use military force to attempt to make you conform to their way of life?

Do you think, after a while, you might be tempted to do something desperate as well?

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Umm, deliberately misinterpreting what I say and twisting my statements seem to be unhelpful, to say the least.

oh i did? shame on me. my appologies in advance. with that said, let's see here:

Originally posted by Dreampanther
I started my statement by saying: "Look, I feel sorry for everybody who died in 9/11, and all the families affected by it. And I'm not saying America had it coming - nobody deserves that."

ok, so america didnt have it coming and was not asking for it. therefore the attackers were coldblooded murderers, correct? they made a conscious decision to murder people who clearly did not invite the situation. wonderful. agreed. approved. gold star.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Then I asked whether you think that perhaps America's foreign policies might have done something to antagonise people from a much weaker country so much that they felt the need to plan and execute such a horrific act, against a much stronger country - or whether you believe the attacks to be completely unprovoked.

the foreign policy of the executive branch for the past half-century toward the middle east has been disgustinly exploitative, reckless, and downright criminal. agreed. no, i dont feel the attacks were unprovoked, just as i feel the current wars were not unprovoked. what is unfortunate is when those who do not provoke suffer in place of those who do. moving along

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Then you went on a rant, and you seem to be a bit over-defensive, to say the least.

try having to validate your intelligence to countless people who just hate everyone from your country and call them (and you) ignorant and retarded, and im sure you'll develope the same knee-jerk reflex.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Now, since we are talking about "u.s. occupations in the middle east", let me ask you another question: Do you think the Middle East will continue these kind of attacks if America withdraws from there, where it is clearly unwelcome?

yes. i do believe it will happen. you have to understand that this isnt one nation versus another. this is a battle of opportunistic powers which are fueled by violence and fear. bin laden, insurgent leaders, and king dubya's power and influence are DIRECTLY proportional to the level of fear and irrationality among their citizens. all sides know this and exploit it. and make no mistake. al qaeda leaders are nothing more than fetal versions of brutal dictators, as we saw their will practiced in afghanistan. fear is their enabler, power is their obsession, and whoever they (u.s. or al qaeda) dupe into dying for this farse is inconscequential to the overall point: its all bullshit. bush doesnt shed a tear for our troops and al qaeda leaders dont give a rats ass about the people they claim to defend. its all about gaining power and keeping people in a constant state of fear.

so yes, imho if the u.s. pulled out of the middle east, middle easterners would dance in the streets and a temporary utopia would ensue...except for in a some remote area of pakistan/afghanistan where a powerless al qauda/whoever would plan their next attack. make no mistake, this is mutually beneficial for all those in power, and universally damning to those who live under that power. im not implying that they are coordinated, but rather there is no genuine want for peace.


Originally posted by Dreampanther
Or do you think that America should continue to tell the Middle East what to do, and how to do it, and furthermore label everybody who responds negatively to this kind of interference as dissenters and potential terrorists?

i think we need to find practical means of pushing alternate fuels and rendering the entire middle east irrelevant to our needs. however that will especially never happen so long as texas oil billionares hold such power. do i think its wrong that our military is permanently committed in the middle east? absolutely.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Or, to put it another way: How would you react if armed troops pulled into your country, and told you your beliefs are wrong, your society is wrong, your religion is wrong, your government is wrong - and they used superior force of arms to lay down the law - THEIR LAW.

i really didnt need that to understand, and also its not relevant and completly dramatised into falsehood. america is not dictating law or damning any religion. all our government really did in iraq was kill of a dictator which they helped put in power, and are now keeping the largest cities on lockdown indefinately (all pointless, i know)

Originally posted by Dreampanther
And you ask them to leave, you tell them America is YOUR country, not theirs, and that if they do not like the way you live they should go back to their country? And they refuse, and use military force to attempt to make you conform to their way of life?

Do you think, after a while, you might be tempted to do something desperate as well?
perhaps, just as people were tempted to join the army/navy/airforce/marines and attack whomever we were told attacked us. get it? double edged sword


all this talk of iraq...whats this have to do with 9/11?

Originally posted by Schecter


all this talk of iraq...whats this have to do with 9/11?

NAIL ON THE ****ING HEAD

Originally posted by ~Pielover~
I find it humorous that people thin Bush crippled the economy, when he really did the best thing he could ever do for it.

You all know that war makes the economy go UP, right?

You do not have any clue how the economy works do you?

Originally posted by Dreampanther
My questions remain:

What, in your opinion, did America do to antagonise people to such an extent that they felt the need to plan an operation, do the training, infiltrate America, hijack the planes and fly them into the Towers, taking thousands of lives (including their own) in the process?



That's not what happened. I'll let someone else explain it.

wow, i missed that one

Originally posted by ~Pielover~
I find it humorous that people thin Bush crippled the economy, when he really did the best thing he could ever do for it.

not "THE", but one of the most idiotic quotes ever at KMC.

his irrational leap in logic is that america directly provoked the attack, and no other factors were involved. there in lies the implication that we had it coming and that they were justified. yet douse that with lots of flowery talk of sympathy and sentiment and thats what we're left to read

Originally posted by Schecter
wow, i missed that one



not "THE", but one of the most idiotic quotes ever at KMC.

Funny enough, he is saying starting this war helped the economy and he started it to help the economy which skips all sense of all moral fiber.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Yeah the country that raped almost half of Asia, half of Europe, the Natives and latinos of North and South America, African slaves, who do it for money but when they get attacked themself, they go all nucleur and bomb cities for no reason? Yeah, no one's ever gonna wanna attack that country are they?

Even for you, this is one of the stupidest rants yet.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
It's the American way not to give a flying fvck about anything outside their country, until of course it affects them.

Are you absolutely certain about that? Which other countries then are the opposite of America that care about everything that doesn't concern them?

Originally posted by Robtard
Are you absolutely certain about that? Which other countries then are the opposite of America that care about everything that doesn't concern them?

0. International politics are always utilitarian. On a nation-state level

Wait until a 911 comes to your town and lets see who could forget it and get on as if it was some walk in the park little tantrum.

Get up, uh get get, get down

911 a joke in ur town!

"Get funky, don't be a 911 junkie"

HAHAHA, awww good times, good times. Damn life was simple when I was that young

Yeah, just pulling wings of flies.

BTW I never did that. That's a sin.

LOL, Sega Genesis for me. My mother used to kick my ass with Sonya on the original Mortal Kombat

Originally posted by debbiejo
Yeah, just pulling wings of flies.

BTW I never did that. That's a sin.

It is? Where is that at in the good book?

Yeah, "Do unto others as you would like done unto you"....

Originally posted by debbiejo
Yeah, "Do unto others as you would like done unto you"....

"Others" includes only humans and not all life. At least as I understood it to mean.

Not if youre Hindu.

Ahhh, touche

hmmm i was under the impression tha hindus only refrained from eating cows.

Originally posted by Schecter
hmmm i was under the impression tha hindus only refrained from eating cows.

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/4789/holycowtm2.jpg

Originally posted by Schecter
the foreign policy of the executive branch for the past half-century toward the middle east has been disgustinly exploitative, reckless, and downright criminal. agreed. no, i dont feel the attacks were unprovoked, just as i feel the current wars were not unprovoked. what is unfortunate is when those who do not provoke suffer in place of those who do. moving along

Originally posted by Schecter
his irrational leap in logic is that america directly provoked the attack, and no other factors were involved. there in lies the implication that we had it coming and that they were justified. yet douse that with lots of flowery talk of sympathy and sentiment and thats what we're left to read

Originally posted by debbiejo
Wait until a 911 comes to your town and lets see who could forget it and get on as if it was some walk in the park little tantrum.

Been there, done that...

turned out the government was wrong all along...

Originally posted by Dreampanther


sorry, its not a personal attack. i just think you should read your own words, trim the fat (laa dee daa i wish it never happened, nobody deserved it) and see that you're attempting to partially justify the actions of terrorists, not even considering for a second that perhaps it could be done through MANIPULATION by their own leaders, be it warlord or cleric. you act as if the u.s. is directly responsible for their actions.


it has nothing to do with our occupations, but with our past neglects (post u.s.s.r. afghanistan). thats where we ****ed up.

and ffs again, why bring up iraq? please respond with more than a smilie.

i never suggested that you condoned the attacks.
my words: "partially justify" as in, though you can not logically relate to such an action, you can see a direct and beaming relation of action/reaction between the u.s. and the whole of the middle east. i disagree (if that was your point)


here's my take on u.s./middle east as a whole (because in u.s./middle east relations, thats all thats relevant.)

what i see i demagogue's claiming to speak for god, taking the opportunity to tie it all together as some kind of assault on the almighty himself. really we're taking their oil....all of it. its just common thievery. but they say america is the great satan who wants to crush gods people (apparently....only them.

they make the connection and are the motivators for the particular course of action in terrorism. its state mandated brainwashing and propaganda. its everywhere, mind youhttp://foxnews.com
but not nearly at that magnitude since its all tied together with faith. thats what makes it all unified and volatile.

some in isreal have proven quite sadistic toward palestinians and its never shown on our media. but then again the media doesnt show dead bodies here because its negative and might scare people and keep them from shopping.

point im making is that its not tied together. if this was a war on islam it would be, but it isnt. we buy oil from arab leaders and as a result they let us do whatever the hell we want, we allow isreal to exist becuase we feel guilty about allowing hitler to kill 6 million jews, so we taught them to fly fighter jets and drive tanks to have an immediate response force in the heart of the territory.

with that said, it has nothing to do with islam. sure there is prejudice here and a clinically retarded 32% who want to see the "ay-rabs" nuked, but there is no christian cruisade. just a band of crooks conducting various crimes in a giant treasure trove.

in the case of the 9/11 attacks, those were imho brainwashed middleclass bitches. research osama bin laden in his youth and prepare for laughs. these were not poor peasant people robbed of their livelyhood. they were likely convinced over a long period of time.

well, yeah, my opinion

:edit: by the way i wont attempt to justify any of the west's foreign policy in the middle east. its all just an appraisal really

Good job.

Originally posted by The big EH
in about 1 minute all of the americans on this website is going to hate me, and think i'm a total *******, which i'm not i actually know someone who's dad had to clean up the towers, and that brought him to retiring.

9/11
i know it was a terrible thing that happenned to america, the people died and everything, but america really needs to move on and accept it as past history like they did with Pearl Harbor, WW2, and WW1, all very horridable times, all milatary movements, and i think like PH, 9/11 was a milatary movement aswell, or just an act the government put up to use fear to help rule. anyway it is pretty much the only foriegn attack on america besides PH, and it's such a huge deal, it's like a city was taken out. in 6 years there as been 3 movies, almost as if somebody doesn't want anybody toforget those horridable moments, while PH has only had 2 or 3 movies in over 50 years. so what i wanna know why is 9/11 such a huge deal, so many things go on in europe everyday, you don't see them complaining and making movies about everysingle attack. and really casting nick cage in 9/11 is just awful he's a crapptacular actor, he prettymuch ruined skullrider (that and the storyline was extremely simple) and United 93 is a completly awful movie, trying to make a uge 2 and a half hour movie that lasted less time than that was crappy




you know what dude go sit on your finger and rotate. your lucky your in canada cause id break your neck for sitting there telling america to get over 9/11. i guarente that if that shit happened to you you wouldnt make such a drastic topic. at least we as americans send our prayers to people who die. canada is nothing more than a greedy little ***** country who thinks there better than everyone.

canadians are cool. not the french ones though

Originally posted by PiruBlood
you know what dude go sit on your finger and rotate. your lucky your in canada cause id break your neck for sitting there telling america to get over 9/11. i guarente that if that shit happened to you you wouldnt make such a drastic topic. at least we as americans send our prayers to people who die. canada is nothing more than a greedy little ***** country who thinks there better than everyone.

wow....reported. thanks for your contribution.