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How would this turn out?

LT IMO

what about the celestials? Franklin was said to have celestial level power and the celestial for this match up is tiamut the dreamer

i think he could take one celestial

im not talking about any celestial, im talking about tiamut

At maximum potential, as an adult, he was able to slay a couple Celestial's. But by then he had allready replaced Galactus.
But the Living Tribunal will always be above him.

Either the LT or the entire celestial host would be able to stop him at FP without too much trouble.

will he defeat tiamut the strongest of the celestials?

Originally posted by Kadesh
will he defeat tiamut the strongest of the celestials?

If Tiamut was alone? Maybe.

If Tiamut was with the thousands of other Celestials? No.

Anybody have franklin richards adult picture? All i can find are his childhood scans and did he became galactus in earth x?

Anybody have earth X franklin richard scans or does any1 know where i can read these comics online?

Originally posted by Kadesh
How would this turn out?

LT kills Frankie. Celestials respect Franklin

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If Tiamut was alone? Maybe.

If Tiamut was with the thousands of other Celestials? No.

I will answer
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w17/guy222_photos/c3vk5-1.jpg
this became
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w17/guy222_photos/Eternals_006_019.jpg
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w17/guy222_photos/Eternals_006_020.jpg
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w17/guy222_photos/Eternals_006_021_022.jpg
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w17/guy222_photos/Eternals_006_035-1.jpg

Maybe the celestials cannot create pocket universe like FP franklin can I believe full powered he SHOULD <---- SHOULD be at the same powerlevels as any single celestial.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Maybe the celestials cannot create pocket universe like FP franklin can I believe full powered he SHOULD <---- SHOULD be at the same powerlevels as any single celestial.

Ashema the Listener respects Frankie. All do Celestials

I believe Franklin taken down any Celestial is bogus since it takes couple Celestial to kill just one.

LT > IG > UN > Multi-Eternity > Eternity (singular) > Celestials > Franklyn.



In short LT or all the Celestials would annihilate Franklyn IMO.

Yes all of them but just one would go down

Originally posted by Galan007
LT > IG > UN > Multi-Eternity > Eternity (singular) > Celestials > Franklyn.



In short LT or all the Celestials would annihilate Franklyn IMO.

FP Franklyn could create and alter universes right? Could celestials or eternity do that?

Didn't Celestial tell Franklin Richards in Heros Reborn that If he didn't choose a Earth that they would.

Originally posted by masterbruce
FP Franklyn could create and alter universes right? Could celestials or eternity do that? He made a pocket Universe/dimension.

yet something that the celestials have never done.

Originally posted by Utrigita
yet something that the celestials have never done. Yet something that the Celestials have never tried.

yet something that Franklin did from his subconsciousness he didn't even try .

The celestials could block it though but Franklin never tried going back.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yet something that the Celestials have never tried.

that line of reasoning is pretty specious and you know it

Originally posted by Utrigita
yet something that Franklin did from his subconsciousness he didn't even try .

The celestials could block it though but Franklin never tried going back. Sorry, but good 'ol Franky never did anything to suggest that he is more powerful then ALL of the Celestials.


No way no how.

I thought you quit glad to see you didn't

One Celestial defeated Zeus Odin and Osiris at the same time will not much effort could a Full Powered Franklin do that?

Originally posted by masterbruce
that line of reasoning is pretty specious and you know it Absolutely.


It's also reasoning that I would never try to back up.

Originally posted by Utrigita
I thought you quit glad to see you didn't Who?

Originally posted by Galan007
Sorry, but good 'ol Franky never did anything to suggest that he is more powerful then ALL of the Celestials.


No way no how.

Yet I didn't argue for him bringing down all celestials just one hence the SHOULD <----- SHOULD in a previous post hell Galactus cannot take down all the Celestials combined, unless he is fed to be on pair with eternity

Originally posted by Galan007
Who?

MasterBruce hates it when Members leaves because they fell themselves harassed by other members if they have grown tired of being here fine, then it is best that they leave but other wise a dumb way to terminate a user.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Yet I didn't argue for him bringing down all celestials just one hence the SHOULD <----- SHOULD in a previous post hell Galactus cannot take down all the Celestials combined, unless he is fed to be on pair with eternity Ohhh ok, just a little miscommunication.


I agree that Franky might be able to take down one Celestial, but that's it.

Originally posted by golem370
One Celestial defeated Zeus Odin and Osiris at the same time will not much effort could a Full Powered Franklin do that?

cough cough one of the mighiest celestials cough cough

Originally posted by Galan007
Ohhh ok, just a little miscommunication.


I agree that Franky might be able to take down one Celestial, but that's it.

Fine (couldn't understand you meaning otherwise)

Originally posted by Utrigita
cough cough one of the mighiest celestials cough cough

u are silly

I know but it is true Arishem isn't just a celestial possibly one of the strongest of them so saying that any single celestial could do what he did... I doubt it

Originally posted by golem370
One Celestial defeated Zeus Odin and Osiris at the same time will not much effort could a Full Powered Franklin do that?

arishem

Originally posted by Utrigita
I know but it is true Arishem isn't just a celestial possibly one of the strongest of them so saying that any single celestial could do what he did... I doubt it

tiamut maybe stronger than arishem

Tiamut is the strongest celestial but wouldnt he be able to take on franklin? Didnt we see franklin defeat celestials on earth X?

Originally posted by Kadesh
Tiamut is the strongest celestial but wouldnt he be able to take on franklin? Didnt we see franklin defeat celestials on earth X?

Tiamut cannot be killed. He is badass. Any Celestial destroys Franklin. He is respected by the Celestial race. It appears we did. Frankie became Galactus. That was fun. After that, Franklin=Celestial. The Celestials have returned. Pretty Ommipotent
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w17/guy222_photos/Eternals01page03_04.jpg
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w17/guy222_photos/Eternals703.jpg

we still don't know what FP franklin can do...

just that he created a pocket universe from his subconcious...as a kid...

there are reasons why reed placed mental blocks on franky...as a kid...

besides, the thread includes LT...

LT blinks...

/thread

Originally posted by masterbruce
that line of reasoning is pretty specious and you know it
... Says the Superman Prime fan...

Full power Franklin was Psi Lord and Avatar

As a child, he stomped Mephisto, even created the Heroes Reborn Universe. He is said to = 1 Celestial. I would disagree. When Frankie died, Ashema the Listener resurrected him

Celestial>Franklin

Originally posted by guy222
Full power Franklin was Psi Lord and Avatar

As a child, he stomped Mephisto, even created the Heroes Reborn Universe. He is said to = 1 Celestial. I would disagree. When Frankie died, Ashema the Listener resurrected him

Celestial>Franklin Why does that show Franklin =/= 1 Celestial?

Frankie(child) is said to = 1 Celestial

Franklin(adult) was also killed in an alternate future

Originally posted by guy222
Full power Franklin was Psi Lord and Avatar

As a child, he stomped Mephisto, even created the Heroes Reborn Universe. He is said to = 1 Celestial. I would disagree. When Frankie died, Ashema the Listener resurrected him

Celestial>Franklin

Psi Lord destroyed an universe. Then in AU as Galactus was devouring Celestials. I really doubt every Celestial>Franklin Richards or even Tiamut.
And since FR is an omega level mutant and due to what his powers are, his upper limit of power might go beyond any Celestial (except Scathan and we don't even know how could Scathan be so powerful, was it because of TOAA or something).

FP Franklin Vs. Tiamut, I say FR takes him down.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Psi Lord destroyed an universe. Then in AU as Galactus was devouring Celestials. I really doubt every Celestial>Franklin Richards or even Tiamut.
And since FR is an omega level mutant and due to what his powers are, his upper limit of power might go beyond any Celestial (except Scathan and we don't even know how could Scathan be so powerful, was it because of TOAA or something).

FP Franklin Vs. Tiamut, I say FR takes him down.

Kubik warped a universe into a sphere the size of his hand and still his powers are by his own account nothing next to a ordinary Celestial, also lets not forget that it was in a chain reaction that the universe was destroyed it wasn't with one fell wave of franklins hand. Franklins entire pocket dimension was first sealed off by the Celestials then they would have vaporized it but instead Ashema contained the pocket universe within herself. Adult Franklin at one point tried to force knowlegde from a Watcher and was owned and the Watchers roughly a small step below the Celestials.

FP Franklin vs Tiamut arguably the most powerful mainstream Celestial FP Franklin loses.

Franklin lashed out at Ashema after She killed that polar bear cub it suprised her but didn't seem to harm her

franklin richards is an omega level mutant, and possibly, the strongest shown so far{with the exception of jean who has always been in contact with the phenix and wanda who has PIS feats in house of m}. his power even before the omega advent was supposed to be equal to the celestials. not only did he create a pocket universe from nothing, he was able to create full sized universes and then travel through them with a couple of other people and not even realise that they were of his own creation. he was able to turn into galactus. eternity was interested in him among other abstracts even before the omega theory.

even currently, he has the power to take on celestials, at full potential, there is no contest. he wud win, perhaps even against the LT {since im guessing, even LT's position is subject to be replaced by an omega sumday, and franklin is the strongest omega}. it was also stated that franklin remains one of the few whose power levels have not gone down at all since the house of m etc.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Kubik warped a universe into a sphere the size of his hand and still his powers are by his own account nothing next to a ordinary Celestial, also lets not forget that it was in a chain reaction that the universe was destroyed it wasn't with one fell wave of franklins hand. Franklins entire pocket dimension was first sealed off by the Celestials then they would have vaporized it but instead Ashema contained the pocket universe within herself. Adult Franklin at one point tried to force knowlegde from a Watcher and was owned and the Watchers roughly a small step below the Celestials.

FP Franklin vs Tiamut arguably the most powerful mainstream Celestial FP Franklin loses.

And still Celestial said FR is potentially equal to them, so that means his power within him is beyond Kubik. And who say 616 FR is not like the one on Earth X. Maybe even more. Everything 616 FR did, it was far form him fully powered or that he was even realizing he is doing something.

And he can warp reality and is an omega mutant, so maybe his reality powers are immeasurable, but he still didn't close live up to his full powers (but we saw from AU what he could do, especially Earth X where Celestial really wasn't something to him).
I think he is on of the mutants who could live up to Scarlet Witch.

Franklin will beat one average celestial...and even thats not a stomp if you ask me

Tiamut will win, as will more than one i.m.o

Now if franklin starts to gain more feats and such.....i will reconsider.....but the earth x arch....i dont know all the things that led up to him replacing galactus

I also have a problem with the term full potential, i think eventually young franklin of today...will have better feats than what we have seen from the adult franklin,

also. adult franklin/psi lord was a little crazy and not as powerful as child franklin. his power was more DIRECTED and concious but still not compareable to the youg one's. in my oppinion, franklin is the strongest consistant mutant in marvel. others like hyperstrom/mad jim jaspers/wanda are too inconsistant to be really considered.

Originally posted by starlock
Franklin will beat one average celestial...and even thats not a stomp if you ask me

Tiamut will win, as will more than one i.m.o

Now if franklin starts to gain more feats and such.....i will reconsider.....but the earth x arch....i dont know all the things that led up to him replacing galactus

I also have a problem with the term full potential, i think eventually young franklin of today...will have better feats than what we have seen from the adult franklin,

Hy, starlock, how are you!?

But we also haven seen much really from Tiamut only on words what he is.

LT would win, of course.

(a) Celestial Vs FR:
50-50 either way.

Tiamut Vs FR:
Tiamut.

I think it's a given than characters of the level of Celestials can reality warp, can create and destroy universes (pocket or otherwise), but that they exist/persist for reasons that are contrary to such egregious use of power.

And for Tiamut and him being the most powerful Celestial and always brought up Galactus knew fear when he awoke (Galactus would also probably be little afraid if Tyrant would come back). In BA it was clearly seen Tiamut realizes how much more powerful is Galactus than him.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Hy, starlock, how are you!?

But we also haven seen much really from Tiamut only on words what he is.

Hey there xplosive, how are you doing these days

I remember guy showing me scans of how hard it was for the celestials to trap tiamut, but yeah allot of descriptions and such, but not allot of feats....its not a perfect system but we try

Originally posted by Xplosive
And still Celestial said FR is potentially equal to them, so that means his power within him is beyond Kubik. And who say 616 FR is not like the one on Earth X. Maybe even more. Everything 616 FR did, it was far form him fully powered or that he was even realizing he is doing something.

And he can warp reality and is an omega mutant, so maybe his reality powers are immeasurable, but he still didn't close live up to his full powers (but we saw from AU what he could do, especially Earth X where Celestial really wasn't something to him).
I think he is on of the mutants who could live up to Scarlet Witch.

Potential Equal. Yes it is but you mentioned that adult franklin could destroy a universe I mentioned that so could the Celestials and quiet easy if there powerlevel are truly so far above Kubiks. I have no idea on how to judge franklin/Galactus from the Earth X, because his feats against the Celestials are staggering no doubt about it, however the way I understand it, he has the power of Galactus too and he will remain Galactus as long as none tells him otherwise, which would indicate that him being Galactus have somehow granted him a powerup. Again this is pure speculation since I have never quiet understood what turned Franklin into Galactus.

So can the Celestials, he will most likely operate on one level of infinity and the Celestials will operate at one below equal ore above him Tiamut however imo is above him, Again I will not strictly call that Franklin pure Franklin but that is just my opinion because Galactus power seemed in some way to have influence. And warp the Omniverse I doubt it.

Originally posted by Utrigita
And warp the Omniverse I doubt it.

Yeah, me too, but wouldn't be surprised. But who ever thought Scarlet Witch will do that.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Yeah, me too, but wouldn't be surprised. But who ever thought Scarlet Witch will do that.

Yes you are right if someone in the beginning of the 2000 had said that Wanda would warp the omniverse at a later point of time he would be looked at as insane, I guess you are right we never know just quiet what we are to expect, I didn't expect to see a badly weakened Galactus blast at least three solarsystems to dust along with a Watcher either.

Tiamut stalemated the entire second host by himself.

franklin didnt get a powerup when he turned into galactus. it was merely his childish mentality and innocence which made him galactus as LONG AS NO1 TOLD HIM HE WASNT. a lack of will so to speak. but it was all his own power. point being, franklin wins.

2nd Celestial Host could only contain Tiamut

Aforementioned this morning, when Frankie died, Ashema the Listener resurrected him. IMO, Frankie doesn't equal 1 Celestial

Earth X. If the Celestials knew it was Franklin. Been different. Non Canon

Celestial FTW

Full potential Franklin Richards would be a god,
like the rest of mutant hood.

So let's just play with the best we've seen from ol' Franky.


Psi-Lord proved to have the power to completely obliterate an entire Universe.

As we know we've seen child-Franky create pocket-universes,
I'm absolutely certain Psi-Lord can create entire Universes.


Psi-Lord vs a single Celestial?

Psi-Lord either stalemates or wins.

Psi-Lord vs a Host of Celestials?

Psi-Lord gets stomped.

..................................................................................

Btw. I see Earth-X being mentioned.

Had the Celestials known that was Franklin,
they would've destroyed him.

They literally allowed Franklin (who they thought was Galactus) to explode their containment armor.

Why?

Because they feared Galactus,
because,
in the Earth X Universe Galactus was created by Eternity to keep the Celestials in check.

In fact, the Celestials were literally incapable of killing Galactus.

This is why they only tried to stall him by punching him twice to then
immediately taking off, (or escaping intact rather)
but not before Franklin blasted 3 of them out of their casing.

Simply too many Celestials

i remember it being mentioned sumwhere that all of the celestials combined cudnt destroy the true form of ego the living planet. also, didnt invisible woman also kill a celestial by merely destroying its brain. celestials do not have universe destroying power, that is ridiculous. even galactus doesnt posess that power at will.

Exiles

That didn't make sense. In Thor, numerous Celestials attacked Super Ego. No one knows if the Celestials were helping or destroying SE. It is known, SE was more insane from meeting the Celestials

U reference FF #400. That was terrible. Its been said Defalco cried like a baby because the Celestials punked Thor in Thor #300, so he had Sue 'kill' Exitar. If the rumors are correct, Exitar returns

Never seen a Celestial at full power

Originally posted by leonheartmm
also, didnt invisible woman also kill a celestial IW apparently taps the exact energy which Celestials are weak to . Thus, while that event is still cool to look at - it, in all actuality, is really no more impressive than someone wearing a Kryptonite jump-suit, beating Superman. ermm

Originally posted by Mr Master
Btw. I see Earth-X being mentioned.

Had the Celestials known that was Franklin,
they would've destroyed him.

They literally allowed Franklin (who they thought was Galactus) to explode their containment armor.

Why?

Because they feared Galactus,
because,
in the Earth X Universe Galactus was created by Eternity to keep the Celestials in check.

In fact, the Celestials were literally incapable of killing Galactus.

This is why they only tried to stall him by punching him twice to then
immediately taking off, (or escaping intact rather)
but not before Franklin blasted 3 of them out of their casing.

I don't think that they allowed themselves to be destroyed master nothing indicates that, that they could have destroyed him together that is given as Uatu said, however I see no proof of the Celestials allowing themselves to be destroyed.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
celestials do not have universe destroying power, that is ridiculous. even galactus doesnt posess that power at will.

The single random Celestial that Kubik and Kosmos encountered had the ability to destroy a universe.

Okay why should Galactus have any interest in destroying a universe? The living embodiment of the Universe he sees as his equal and Friend, each time the universe has been threated Galactus has stood up to defend it.

Originally posted by Utrigita
I don't think that they allowed themselves to be destroyed master nothing indicates that, that they could have destroyed him together that is given as Uatu said, however I see no proof of the Celestials allowing themselves to be destroyed.

I cant speak for Mr Master, but i think he meant .....by them thinking it was galactus, they acted differently, they thought they were fighting eternity's creation and he explained the rest, had they known it was franklin...he would have been beaten, but i dont think he would want me explaining his point so...thats what i got from it

Earth X's FR is an alien that shapeshifts depending on what others think of him, had the Celestials know he was Franklin and not Galactus they would have killed him. In the other hand, the Celestials know that to kill Galactus is to alter the balance of the universe so they wouldn't do it.

Originally posted by Utrigita
The single random Celestial that Kubik and Kosmos encountered had the ability to destroy a universe.

Okay why should Galactus have any interest in destroying a universe? The living embodiment of the Universe he sees as his equal and Friend, each time the universe has been threated Galactus has stood up to defend it.

and that plot device bugged me. because cosmic cubes have a lot of awesome showings, even thanos admitted that the creator{a cosmic cube} had INFINITE power ill utilised, and he looked awe inspired when he said that{and that is saying sumthign from the guy wo held the infinite gauntlett and heart of the universe}. also, kubik etc have on panel showings, while the celestials have next to none. if anything, they have been defeated in silly ways more than once. also, even if they are workers or aspects of eternity, still, eternity is the embodiement of PART of the universe {along with infinit, death, master order, lord chaos and the phenix} why whud the multiple WORKERS of eternity each then posess universe destroying power??? i think it is silly. galactus has great respect for eternity and fears death who he knows will one day claim him. he isnt equal to eternity in power, it is only his purpose as guardian oft he balance between eternity and death that makes him a key figure{as abraxas is released if he dies} he is a KEY to great powerr, not the power itself. in my oppinion neither the celestials nor galactus can just straight out destroy a universe.

I will agree with a point u bring up

Eternity>Galactus. Eternity has recreated Earth. A feat Galactus hasn't. He has recreated Zenn La. That's not Earth

We have only seen glimpses of wat a Celestial can do. They were created to surpass beings like the Watchers and Galactus

The convo between Kubik and Kosmos is the only reference about the power between a Celestial and a Cube Being. Celestial>Cubes

Originally posted by Utrigita

I don't think that they allowed themselves to be destroyed master nothing indicates that, that they could have destroyed him together that is given as Uatu said, however I see no proof of the Celestials allowing themselves to be destroyed.
True that.

Franklin tore them up with his own power,
but they were holding back for the sake of the Universe.

When I say they allowed him, I don't mean they helped him,
or opened themselves up for attack.

I mean they didn't go all out, they left the fight abruptly,
and as we know, they could've done more,
this is why it was stated had they known it was Franky, Franky would've died.

Originally posted by Bentley

Earth X's FR is an alien that shapeshifts depending on what others think of him, had the Celestials know he was Franklin and not Galactus they would have killed him. In the other hand, the Celestials know that to kill Galactus is to alter the balance of the universe so they wouldn't do it.
That's 100% correct, save the alien part,
that's actually humanity that's supposed to reach that shape-shifting stage.

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/6418/g2go0.th.jpg




Franklin was the first to reach that stage in Earth X it seems:

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/5751/g1ld4.th.jpg

Originally posted by Mr Master
True that.

Franklin tore them up with his own power,
but they were holding back for the sake of the Universe.

When I say they allowed him, I don't mean they helped him,
or opened themselves up for attack.

I mean they didn't go all out, they left the fight abruptly,
and as we know, they could've done more,
this is why it was stated had they known it was Franky, Franky would've died.


I can agree to that, it's clear that the Galactus/Franklin would have lost if the entire host had gone all out as would Galactus from the 616 reality if he was restricted from the hyperspace drain, but again from my point of view Franklin still under his own power destroyed Three Celestials. It was just me misunderstanding the meaning of your post.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
and that plot device bugged me. because cosmic cubes have a lot of awesome showings, even thanos admitted that the creator{a cosmic cube} had INFINITE power ill utilised, and he looked awe inspired when he said that{and that is saying sumthign from the guy wo held the infinite gauntlett and heart of the universe}. also, kubik etc have on panel showings, while the celestials have next to none. if anything, they have been defeated in silly ways more than once. also, even if they are workers or aspects of eternity, still, eternity is the embodiement of PART of the universe {along with infinit, death, master order, lord chaos and the phenix} why whud the multiple WORKERS of eternity each then posess universe destroying power??? i think it is silly. galactus has great respect for eternity and fears death who he knows will one day claim him. he isnt equal to eternity in power, it is only his purpose as guardian oft he balance between eternity and death that makes him a key figure{as abraxas is released if he dies} he is a KEY to great powerr, not the power itself. in my oppinion neither the celestials nor galactus can just straight out destroy a universe.

First of there is a great difference between the Cosmic cube beings and the Cosmic Containment units. They have next to one however in those showings they have they haven't in a single one manhandel unless they where up against far greater power the only really bad showing the Celestials out from the top of my memory has is against Sue Storm. They would posesses that power simply because they can, because one being hold the power to destroy a universe it doesn't mean that the being will use the power to destroy a universe. And yet LT takes notice of Galactus requests when he makes them and that is because of two things his power and his status among the Abstracts. That is your opinion and we will never see Galactus ore the Celestials destroy a universe because that isn't what they are interested in, however both of them holds the power to do so, by Kubiks own account he is beneath the average Celestial and Galactus, actually he is below quiet a few beings by his own account, Kubik when he toke Kosmos on a trip around the universe at the same time increased the power of numerous characters, Characters that cannot go around taking down a universe here and there.

Originally posted by starlock
I cant speak for Mr Master, but i think he meant .....by them thinking it was galactus, they acted differently, they thought they were fighting eternity's creation and he explained the rest, had they known it was franklin...he would have been beaten, but i dont think he would want me explaining his point so...thats what i got from it

Okay, It was just the choice of words that left me a little curious because to my knowlegde the Celestials that was Blasted didn't allow themselve to be destroyed, and Starlock from my point of view you are always welcome to explain anything you like.

Interesting confrontation between the Celestials and Franklin in this week's FF.

While brief, that was much better written than fraction's galactus/odin encounter.

Also, a bit of ominous foreshadowing about franklin's powers. with all the hints hickman is dropping, i won't be surprised if he intends for franklin to become a hyperstorm like character.

even then its not enough to surpass a celestial

franklin is respected by the celestials

it b nice to see if franklin is the key that allows celestials and galactus to continue living as ppl should know there's an deviant storyline goin and the eternals have a book coming so whatever hickman does will no doubt b changed when the eternals book hits

and celestials or lt ftw

Originally posted by guy222
even then its not enough to surpass a celestial

franklin is respected by the celestials

it b nice to see if franklin is the key that allows celestials and galactus to continue living as ppl should know there's an deviant storyline goin and the eternals have a book coming so whatever hickman does will no doubt b changed when the eternals book hits

true. On the other side of the coin, they really couldn't do much to frankllin either.

tiamut is alive and functioning on earth as of uncanny #3. writers will write what they will.

i am sure they will if he interferes

and i waiting for kieron's response on twitter because i asked a direct question

yes the writers will editors edit

Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
true. On the other side of the coin, they really couldn't do much to frankllin either.


Indeed. Moreover, the celestials apparently view Franklin as a threat to them on some level. Here is how one of the rogue celestials describe him in FF #13:

Human.. Mutant .. Anomaly
BEYOND Omega Classification
DANGER .. THREAT.. HARBINGER

The celestial then attempts to eliminate him with concussive force beams but fails to do so, as Franklin effortlessly transforms the attack into.. harmless flowers.

Having said that, here are my thoughts.

In the modern mainstream Marvel universe, Franklin (our 616 version) has been described as being equal (in terms of sheer power) to that of a celestial.. by celestials themselves, in fact. Other cosmic entities, such as Roma, have pretty much echoed this sentiment. In a recent issue of Fantastic Four, Galactus also told Reed Richards that he feared a confrontation with Franklin, choosing to leave Earth quickly as a result. So, there's really no arguing Franklin's power level at this point unless you're simply in denial.

Now, does all that mean Franklin would, undoubtedly, conquer a celestial in combat? Not necessarily yet. Celestials, aside from their cosmic power, are age-old beings with vast intellectual knowledge. Franklin may have the potential to destroy one or more of them (with proper training), but that remains to be seen. After all, he's still a child. I think that's why the aforementioned rogue celestial referred to him as an anomaly. On the one hand, Franklin is this incredibly powerful being who is able to create and destroy universes with something less than a thought. On the other, he's just a little boy. In some ways, he's comparable to the Clark Kent character on the now defunct Smallville series. Here's why I think so. On Smallville, Clark always had the power to fly, but he subconsciously prevented himself from doing so out of fear that he would be, in some way, losing touch with his human side in the process. It was only until he finally embraced his Kryptonian heritage in the series finale, that he was able to access the power he is most famous for. Franklin, in my opinion, is quite similar. As a human being, he is vulnerable to pain, death, etc., even though he can likely resurrect himself if he so desires (as his alternate counterpart from the Rachel Summers universe once did in the Days of Future Present storyline). My point is that if/when Franklin chooses to transcend his human origins, that is when he will truly become unstoppable. For now, though, he is content being a human child; and I prefer him that way. It makes for a more interesting character and keeps him sort of grounded. With Superman, you have Kryptonite. With FR, you have his very own human shell, which he so desperately holds onto.

A couple of other points I'd like to touch on:

Some have mentioned that Psi-Lord (the teen-aged version of FR from Tom De Falco's FF run) did not exhibit power levels equal to what he is currently wielding (not to mention prior to De Falco's take on the character). Here's why. During the middle of De Falco's run, the writer (and former editor-in-chief) made the following claim: "No child born of woman has ever possessed the terrifying potential or the destructive power of Franklin Richards." Oddly enough, he then went on to send the character into the future, only to be returned as a gun-toting, time-traveling mutant whose full mutant/cosmic potential was held in check by a special power-siphoning suit of armor, bonded to Franklin's physical structure somehow. As such, this teen version of Franklin was limited to using a small measure of his psionic powers (telepathy and telekinesis) in particular. Sound familiar? Yep. De Falco tried to turn Franklin into Teen-Cable. He even gave the character hound scars like Rachel Summers (which were NEVER explained, mind you). Prior to De Falco's FF run, though, Franklin exhibited power levels similar to what we are seeing now. In Byrne's FF #245, some may recall how the child used his reality warping powers to instantaneously transform himself into an adult. In this form (never referred to as Avatar by Byrne himself, btw), Franklin wielded god-like powers. Shortly after, he defeated Mephisto in two separate encounters. (In the first one, he literally destroyed the seemingly all-powerful Mephisto within seconds -- even preventing the demon from connecting with the source of his power, i.e., evil itself!

So yeah, if Franklin, at some point, chooses to transcend his human origins, as was suggested WAY BACK in FF# 216, he would definitely prove a formidable opponent for the celestials. In the Heroes Reborn: The Return limited series, it was actually their hope that they could nurture him in the use of his tremendous gifts, but Ashema talked her fellow space gods out of it.

What else? Someone mentioned that Franklin was killed before. In my opinion, as stated above, the character could resurrect himself at any time if he so desired. Even a parallel version of the character was able to accomplish this to some degree. (And it's important to point out that certain rogue celestials were also 'killed' by members of the Council of Reeds, a team comprised of multiple Reeds from parallel Earths.) Here's another excerpt from FF# 13, where a rogue celestial resorts to a low psychological attack in an attempt to frighten off the child by alluding to his immortality: "If you want/desire/wish it, you will live forever. If you want/desire/wish it, you will see everyone you love die/perish/cease to be." Franklin's reaction to that pretty much gels with what I stated above. Just the thought of living forever freaks him out. He doesn't want to part with his humanity. Some have even speculated that he bends time and space to prevent himself from growing up.

Anyway, it should be interesting to see what Hickman has in store for the character. In Fantastic Four# 600, we see a mysterious figure offering to train him in the use of his powers. I personally can't wait to see who said individual is revealed to be!

As for my vote, I give it to a fully evolved Franklin Richards. He's able to accomplish the impossible WHEN HE ISN'T EVEN REALLY TRYING. Imagine the results if he puts some effort into it.

FR FTW!!!

LT definitely wins.

I think the full host of Celestials would beat Franklin, too.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank


I think the full host of Celestials would beat Franklin, too.

Full host is another story. That's multiple cosmic entities vs one. At least be fair and throw in another combatant on Franklin's side!

This is a silly discussion though because it's not just about power -- it's about knowledge and skill. Franklin's intellect isn't fully evolved yet. Give him time and we'll talk.

LT is likely able to conquer virtually any opponent in the Marvel Universe.

An intellectually evolved Franklin should be able to take down some of the celestials though -- but not simultaneously. Like I said above in a rather lengthy post, I think Franklin will become nigh invulnerable if/when he chooses to transcend his human origins. That won't happen anytime soon though, specifically because he doesn't want it to.

Originally posted by Mr Master
True that.

Franklin tore them up with his own power,
but they were holding back for the sake of the Universe.

When I say they allowed him, I don't mean they helped him,
or opened themselves up for attack.

I mean they didn't go all out, they left the fight abruptly,
and as we know, they could've done more,
this is why it was stated had they known it was Franky, Franky would've died.


That's 100% correct, save the alien part,
that's actually humanity that's supposed to reach that shape-shifting stage.


Franklin was the first to reach that stage in Earth X it seems:

Considering that the celestials are cosmic entities far more evolved than humans, I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't recognize Franklin for who he was. Even a low-level telepath could do that. Food for thought.

Aside from creating a pocket universe, the recent feats Doon mentioned are far and away Franklin's best, imo:
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10770638_FF-13-15.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10770640_FF-13-16.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10770642_FF-13-17.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10770644_FF-13-18.jpg

Subconsciously warping a Celestial's blast, before subconsciously warping an actual Celestial, is extremely impressive (also note that the Celestial's telepathic assault was completely ineffectual against him as well.) Those showings alone put Franklin well above the infinity gauntlets.

However, we have no idea just how powerful those Celestials are yet--we will soon, though. Either way, Franklin isn't beating multiple Celestials any time soon.

indeed

and ashema who is returning brought franklin back to life

celestial/celestials>franklin

The LT for the win and easily. In fact, the entire race of Celestials (minus Scathan and the Ascended Tiamut) AND Franklin vs the LT and the LT would still curbstomp them.

PS I love the attention that Franklin is getting now. It makes his failure and desperation to the point of burning out his powers vs a special someone that much more impressive.

^ Not really.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Not really.

Yes really. And haters gonna hate..............dance

Nah.
a.) What Franklin can do now is not indicative of what he could do 10 years ago (when the Abraxas arc was released.)
b.) I don't think I've ever seen someone say that a single alternate Celestial is anywhere near Abraxas' level of power. Therefore Franklin preforming well against one doesn't mean much in respect to Abraxas.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Yet I didn't argue for him bringing down all celestials just one hence the SHOULD <----- SHOULD in a previous post hell Galactus cannot take down all the Celestials combined, unless he is fed to be on pair with eternity Galactus > individual celestials... Galactus had to talk to Reed because he was scared of fighting Franklin... hence Franklin>run of the mill celestials. not sure about tiamut though. Would be an interesting fight for the 2 panels it would last 1 way or the other. Personally I think full potential Franklin should take it handily. His power creep has only expanded his potential IMO and it's been a while since he's been confirmed celestial level at the least. Celestial power levels on the other hand have remained relatively consistent.

Originally posted by Galan007
a.) What Franklin can do now is not indicative of what he could do 10 years ago (when the Abraxas arc was released.)

Originally posted by Galan007
Nah.
a.) What Franklin can do now is not indicative of what he could do 10 years ago (when the Abraxas arc was released.)
Even if he's the same I wonder how Franklin supporters feel about all of Franklin's power and then some being used so Galactus could win the day

Franklin's powers are only good to summon a more powerful being according to that arc

^

Galactus>Franklin.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Galactus > individual celestials... Galactus had to talk to Reed because he was scared of fighting Franklin... hence Franklin>run of the mill celestials. not sure about tiamut though. Would be an interesting fight for the 2 panels it would last 1 way or the other. Personally I think full potential Franklin should take it handily. His power creep has only expanded his potential IMO and it's been a while since he's been confirmed celestial level at the least. Celestial power levels on the other hand have remained relatively consistent.

which celestial does galactus defeat

franklin>galactus yes

Originally posted by guy222
franklin>galactus yes

I refuse to aknowledge the shit Matt Fraction is serving us.

don't like fraction either good friend

Originally posted by Galan007
Nah.
a.) What Franklin can do now is not indicative of what he could do 10 years ago (when the Abraxas arc was released.)
b.) I don't think I've ever seen someone say that a single alternate Celestial is anywhere near Abraxas' level of power. Therefore Franklin preforming well against one doesn't mean much in respect to Abraxas.

Originally posted by leonidas


You realize that even 10 years ago he was a monster power wise yes? He was creating pocket universes, annihilating demon lords in their own realms (something Galactus himself couldn't do), and bringing himself back from the dead and draining power from the Phoenix Avatar without her permission, etc...



Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Even if he's the same I wonder how Franklin supporters feel about all of Franklin's power and then some being used so Galactus could win the day

Franklin's powers are only good to summon a more powerful being according to that arc

The only reason Galactus was needed was to pull the UN from Abraxas' hands because of his special relations hip to it. Since that incident we've seen Galactus flee Earth in order to avoid a confrontation with Franklin. But these upcoming issues will settle the matter once and for all I guess.

Originally posted by zopzop
The only reason Galactus was needed was to pull the UN from Abraxas' hands because of his special relations hip to it. And you think Franklin knew this? Hell no. He isn't omniscient :/. The only reason Frank/Val resurrected Galactus was because they saw him as the best hope in that situation.

Either way, trying to apply Franklin's current levels, to him as he was portrayed 10 years ago is... Horribly faulty.

Originally posted by zopzop
You realize that even 10 years ago he was a monster power wise yes? He was creating pocket universes, annihilating demon lords in their own realms (something Galactus himself couldn't do), and bringing himself back from the dead and draining power from the Phoenix Avatar without her permission, etc...

how many universes did he create in that arc again....? he was shown to be the scared little boy he is often shown to be. abraxas striking fear into him=meaningless. now that i think of it, didn't onslaught do the exact same thing?

Originally posted by Galan007
And you think Franklin knew this? Hell no. He isn't omniscient :/. The only reason Frank/Val resurrected Galactus was because they saw him as the best hope in that situation.

Either way, trying to apply Franklin's current levels, to him as he was portrayed 10 years ago is... Horribly faulty.

Even 10 years ago he did something Galactus himsefl couldn't do. He destroyed Mephisto in his own hell. Galactus had to resort to eating hell to end that fight. Franklin straight up blasted him into pieces.

Franklin knows of the Nullifier and that it's Galactus' main weapon (as early as Silver Surfer 18, 20+ years ago). Since there was nothing anyone there could do to stop Abraxas, he gambled on Galactus. And it worked. Galactus' connection to the UN allowed him to snatch it from Abraxas' hands.

Originally posted by leonidas
how many universes did he create in that arc again....? he was shown to be the scared little boy he is often shown to be. abraxas striking fear into him=meaningless. now that i think of it, didn't onslaught do the exact same thing?

Did he? I remember Onslaught doing his best to convince Franklin to join with him.

Originally posted by zopzop
Even 10 years ago he did something Galactus himsefl couldn't do. He destroyed Mephisto in his own hell. Issue #?

The fact that Mephisto is still alive and well makes me question your retelling of this event.

Originally posted by zopzop
he gambled on Galactus. And it worked. Galactus' connection to the UN allowed him to snatch it from Abraxas' hands. THEY, not just "he" (it was a shared feat, remember) gambled on Galactus because they felt he'd be their best bet in that situation. However, Frank certainly did not know of Galactus' special connection to the UN, which allowed him to recall it from Abraxas. No way.

Making up character motives aside, the Galactus fight is Mephisto's best feat by a good degree

Also Mephisto has shown to regenerate from an anti-matter blast from the invincible Doom. For some really odd reason he stayed down from Franklin...

I think Mephisto has been "destroyed" several times. But he comes back so long as there's evil alive in the world or some crap.

Still, I think Franklin may be getting a bit too much credit here.

Originally posted by Galan007
Issue #?

The fact that Mephisto is still alive and well makes me question your retelling of this event.

Oh but he did! Blew him apart and he was fractured into 5 or 6 different pieces and needed to use the human "Master Pandemonium" to put himself back together. He FUGGED him up with ONE blast. But it was explained that Mephisto like other demons, simply reform over time as long as there's evil in the world or something. But Franklin wtfpwned Mephisto so badly he needed his pawn, Master Pandemonium, to put himself back together!



They were also trained for this day by Roma (she knew it would come). I'll get the scans. Need to dig them out.

yall silly

lt/celestials win

new thread idea

mr. termineus vs franklin richards

Franklin was in his astral form at the time, which was explained that he had no mental blocks. He was pretty much full potential.

It still doesn't make sense though, since Mephisto should have just regenerated.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Making up character motives aside, the Galactus fight is Mephisto's best feat by a good degree

Also Mephisto has shown to regenerate from an anti-matter blast from the invincible Doom. For some really odd reason he stayed down from Franklin... Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I think Mephisto has been "destroyed" several times. But he comes back so long as there's evil alive in the world or some crap.

Still, I think Franklin may be getting a bit too much credit here.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/705/owned1f.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/687/owned2rc.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/337/owned3f.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/189/owned4j.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/585/owned5.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/190/owned6.jpg/

Annihilated by Franklin. This was an AMPED Mephisto (some evil planet was approaching Earth) in his own realm. I'm trying to find my West Coast Avengers issue that shows just how much Franklin wtfpwned Mephisto (he needed Master Pandemonium to help him fully reform). Never was Mephisto destroyed like this, ever. Unless I'm missing something.

Originally posted by guy222
indeed

and ashema who is returning brought franklin back to life



So what? I'm sure, in time, he will gain the ability to resurrect himself as well. Like I said before, he's an anomaly of sorts. A celestial even said as much in FF# 13. Franklin has not yet evolved beyond his human shell, but he clearly has the capacity to do so; although, he likely has no wish to. "Rest and remember what you are." He wants to be a normal boy, but he clearly isn't.

Correction

Originally posted by zopzop
Never was Mephisto destroyed like this, ever. Unless I'm missing something.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/doom/drsstrangeanddoom73.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/doom/drsstrangeanddoom74.jpg

Originally posted by zopzop
You realize that even 10 years ago he was a monster power wise yes? He was creating pocket universes, annihilating demon lords in their own realms (something Galactus himself couldn't do), and bringing himself back from the dead and draining power from the Phoenix Avatar without her permission, etc...





The only reason Galactus was needed was to pull the UN from Abraxas' hands because of his special relations hip to it. Since that incident we've seen Galactus flee Earth in order to avoid a confrontation with Franklin. But these upcoming issues will settle the matter once and for all I guess.

Well said.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/doom/drsstrangeanddoom73.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/doom/drsstrangeanddoom74.jpg

Nope. I saw those scans before on comicvine. Nowhere near the same thing. An amped Mephisto was brought to his knees and smoldering in his own realm by Franklin. Then after Franklin takes care of the amp (moving the planet out of Earth's vicinity WHILE he's in Mephisto's realm meaning they weren't even on the same plane of existence), he one shots Mephisto so bad, his spirit is shattered into 6 pieces and he cant' reform himself without the aid of his pawn Master Pandemonium.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Franklin was in his astral form at the time, which was explained that he had no mental blocks. He was pretty much full potential.

It still doesn't make sense though, since Mephisto should have just regenerated.

He tried. Franklin simply didn't let him. Reality is what he makes it. As Terry Kavanaugh put it, Frankie bends the limits and laws of time and space.

Originally posted by zopzop
Nope. I saw those scans before on comicvine. Nowhere near the same thing. An amped Mephisto was brought to his knees and smoldering in his own realm by Franklin. Then after Franklin takes care of the amp (moving the planet out of Earth's vicinity WHILE he's in Mephisto's realm meaning they weren't even on the same plane of existence), he one shots Mephisto so bad, his spirit is shattered into 6 pieces and he cant' reform himself without the aid of his pawn Master Pandemonium. He came back at the end of the same year. He apparently reformed right away, but he didn't reform fully. Which makes no sense. Franklin dispersing him should have no effect on him since he can regenerate from nothing at all.

He gets destroyed in 277, and attacks Pandemonium, gives him powers, and tricks him in 315.

Also, Franklin had nothing to do with Mephisto losing his amp.

Originally posted by guy222
yall silly

lt/celestials win

new thread idea

mr. termineus vs franklin richards

Lt sure. I give it to him.

Celestials...depends on how many and which ones. The adult Franklin seen in Hickman's run could definitely handle a few!!

(Forget Psi-Lord or "teen-cable" and his silly power-siphoning armor though. That version of the character was written by Tom DeFalco.. the same guy who wrote a story where Thor defeated The All-Powerful Phoenix in umm.. mere seconds. )

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Which makes no sense.

It's a comic book. And it makes a whole lot more sense than an entire human populace accepting a pair of glasses as a credible disguise for a certain beloved DC character.

Originally posted by Doon
It's a comic book. And it makes a whole lot more sense than an entire human populace accepting a pair of glasses as a credible disguise for a certain beloved DC character. I'll admit it makes more sense than saying a depiction doesn't count because Thor did something cool

Come on Yat Whirlyman.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
He came back at the end of the same year. He apparently reformed right away, but he didn't reform fully. Which makes no sense. Franklin dispersing him should have no effect on him since he can regenerate from nothing at all.

He gets destroyed in 277, and attacks Pandemonium, gives him powers, and tricks him in 315.

Also, Franklin had nothing to do with Mephisto losing his amp.

Yes he did. Didn't he knock the "Evil Planet" out of Earth's vicinity? I don't have the followup issue (ROM Secret War II tie in) so I can't be 100% sure. But in the FF 227 it makes it clear it was Franklin that moved that world and hence removed the amp and then scattered Mephisto to the four winds with one shot.

Here is the confirmation of just how badly Franklin owned the sh|t out of Mephisto :
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/815/superowned.jpg/

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
I'll admit it makes more sense than saying a depiction doesn't count because Thor did something cool

Come on Yat Whirlyman.

Thor couldn't beat Phoenix in mere seconds.. hell ..probably not even in 30 days. That's another thread though..

Originally posted by zopzop
Yes he did. Didn't he knock the "Evil Planet" out of Earth's vicinity? I don't have the followup issue (ROM Secret War II tie in) so I can't be 100% sure. But in the FF 227 it makes it clear it was Franklin that moved that world and hence removed the amp and then scattered Mephisto to the four winds with one shot.

Here is the confirmation of just how badly Franklin owned the sh|t out of Mephisto :
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/815/superowned.jpg/ It says right in the scan that the world was destroyed by a small band of men on a space platform.
I'd go through my Rom collection, but I don't think there's any need.

I realize. It still doesn't make sense.

Also this:
http://i39.tinypic.com/2wcib7d.jpg

Originally posted by zopzop
Yes he did. Didn't he knock the "Evil Planet" out of Earth's vicinity? I don't have the followup issue (ROM Secret War II tie in) so I can't be 100% sure. But in the FF 227 it makes it clear it was Franklin that moved that world and hence removed the amp and then scattered Mephisto to the four winds with one shot.

Here is the confirmation of just how badly Franklin owned the sh|t out of Mephisto :


Wow. I never saw that image. Thanks!

Also this:


That last image you posted took place prior to the encounter with M. Franklin faced Mephisto when he (his astral form) was in Hell with his parents. It's a pretty good read.

I know. It's funny though.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
It says right in the scan that the world was destroyed by a small band of men on a space platform.
I'd go through my Rom collection, but I don't think there's any need.

I realize. It still doesn't make sense.


Yeah, don't bother. I just realized now. The art on the last scan threw me. The Dire Wraith world was destroyed by someone else (his amp), then Franklin destroyed Mephisto.

Still though. Mephisto with AMP in his realm ---- brought to his knees and smoldering by Franklin. Then without the amp, one shotted to 6 pieces in his own realm and needing his pawn to recollect himself. That's still more than what Galactus did.

Originally posted by zopzop


Yeah, don't bother. I just realized now. The art on the last scan threw me. The Dire Wraith world was destroyed by someone else (his amp), then Franklin destroyed Mephisto.

Still though. Mephisto with AMP in his realm ---- brought to his knees and smoldering by Franklin. Then without the amp, one shotted to 6 pieces in his own realm and needing his pawn to recollect himself. That's still more than what Galactus did.


The amp part was good. The dispersing makes no sense. I have no problem with Franklin being above Mephisto, I have a problem with someone who can reform instantly from nothing being inconvenienced by being blasted apart, not only blasted apart, but his essence spread out as well.

Like I said, the Galactus fight was Mephisto's highest feat. The guy was written very high there, like when he toyed with Surfer as if he were a human
Hell, using that as direct proof, we might as well say Adam Warlock is more powerful than Galactus. Adam Warlock via soundly defeating him.
Which would put the hierarchy like this:
Franklin>Warlock>Galactus

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb

Hell, using that as direct proof, we might as well say Adam Warlock is more powerful than Galactus. Adam Warlock via soundly defeating him.
Which would put the hierarchy like this:
Franklin>Warlock>Galactus

When did Warlock beat Galactus? What was Galactus' state of hunger at the time? I know Warlock once avoided Galactus' senses (and thereby humiliated him) during the Infinity Gauntlet affair. That's about the best showing I can recall of Warlock vs Galactus.

Originally posted by zopzop
When did Warlock beat Galactus? What was Galactus' state of hunger at the time? I know Warlock once avoided Galactus' senses (and thereby humiliated him) during the Infinity Gauntlet affair. That's about the best showing I can recall of Warlock vs Galactus. I meant Mephisto. Warlock via defeating Mephisto.

You really jumped at the thought of Warlock defeating Galactus though.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
I meant Mephisto. Warlock via defeating Mephisto.

You really jumped at the thought of Warlock defeating Galactus though.

No I couldn't believe it. I mean I realize Galactus jobbs but that would have been too humiliating even for me.

PS When did Warlock beat Mephisto? Was it in his realm?

Originally posted by zopzop
No I couldn't believe it. I mean I realize Galactus jobbs but that would have been too humiliating even for me.

PS When did Warlock beat Mephisto? Was it in his realm? Silver Surfer/Warlock: Ressurection

He "soundly defeated him" in his own realm after Warlock absorbed souls with the Soul Gem to combat him

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Silver Surfer/Warlock: Ressurection

He "soundly defeated him" in his own realm absorbing souls with the Soul Gem to combat him

Ah. But he used the Soul Gem, so I guess that makes it less humiliating.

Originally posted by zopzop
Ah. But he used the Soul Gem, so I guess that makes it less humiliating.

Hey, even the LT himself was defeated by Thanos, while in possession of the "heart of the universe".

Originally posted by zopzop
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/705/owned1f.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/687/owned2rc.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/337/owned3f.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/189/owned4j.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/585/owned5.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/190/owned6.jpg/

Annihilated by Franklin. This was an AMPED Mephisto (some evil planet was approaching Earth) in his own realm. I'm trying to find my West Coast Avengers issue that shows just how much Franklin wtfpwned Mephisto (he needed Master Pandemonium to help him fully reform). Never was Mephisto destroyed like this, ever. Unless I'm missing something. Yeah, Franklin's mental barriers/self-imposed limitations were non-existent in that battle. Point being: that isn't his standard level of power. Far from, in fact.

...It's like using Hulk from the Onslaught saga (the one Jean mind wiped near the end) and trying to call that his 'regular' level. Doesn't work. All it does is show us what they are capable of when let loose by external factors--which has nothing to do with the debate at hand.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yeah, don't bother. I just realized now. The art on the last scan threw me. The Dire Wraith world was destroyed by someone else (his amp), then Franklin destroyed Mephisto.

Still though. Mephisto with AMP in his realm ---- brought to his knees and smoldering by Franklin. Then without the amp, one shotted to 6 pieces in his own realm and needing his pawn to recollect himself. That's still more than what Galactus did. Do you have a problem with Franklin being that powerful? Kid unwittingly creates universes from scratch.

^ Zop LOVES Frank being that powerful.

Essentially, his stance is that Frank being afraid of Abraxas, and not acting directly against him, equates to Abraxas being uber-as-hell by default... An abc logic that I cannot wrap my head around.

Originally posted by Galan007

Essentially, his stance is that Frank being afraid of Abraxas, and not acting directly against him, equates to Abraxas being uber-as-hell by default... An abc logic that I cannot wrap my head around.
I dunno, that's remarkably straightforward logic to my mind. Not necessarily logic that is applicable in all contexts but still, it's very straightforward.

I see what he's saying, I simply do not agree with it.

That's what I meant by the statement you quoted.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Zop LOVES Frank being that powerful.

Essentially, his stance is that Frank being afraid of Abraxas, and not acting directly against him, equates to Abraxas being uber-as-hell by default... An abc logic that I cannot wrap my head around. Abraxas seemed pretty uber separate and apart from Franklin being terrified of him. Also, I may not be recalling it correctly, but I was under the impression that Franklin wasn't aware of his powers during that storyline until the very end. Didn't Valeria/Roma have to unlock/guide him?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Abraxas seemed pretty uber separate and apart from Franklin being terrified of him. Abraxas was powerful. I just think he gets overly wanked by some... More than what's due, at least.

...And Frank being afraid of him has nothing to do with why I think he was powerful. Nada/zilch/zero.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Also, I may not be recalling it correctly, but I was under the impression that Franklin wasn't aware of his powers during that storyline until the very end. Didn't Valeria/Roma have to unlock/guide him? I don't remember if Frank was unaware of his powers. I just remember that he only used his powers once--to resurrect Galactus--an act which completely burned him out.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Zop LOVES Frank being that powerful.


naughty



They were prepped by Roma and the power to do this :
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/843/tended.jpg/

Yet they never dared direct that power toward Abraxas. Just as all of Roma's arsenal : her Citadel "with enough firepower to lay waste entire dimensions" or her Celestial Nullifier were useless vs Abraxas (or she would have used them). Hell Roma herself is pretty powerful. She held her own for a while against a CCU wielder, that was pancaking realities on top of each other, until he gained the upper hand and beat her. Yet she went down like a cheap whore vs Abraxas.

Originally posted by zopzop
Just as all of Roma's arsenal : her Citadel "with enough firepower to lay waste entire dimensions" or her Celestial Nullifier were useless vs Abraxas (or she would have used them). I disagree.

The CN cannot create, it can only nullify/destroy. That said, if Roma would have used it, she wouldn't have been able to undo the damage Abraxas caused without permanently destroying the universes involved. Why would Roma, the chick who tends to Eternity, want to destroy most/all of her boss if she didn't have to? That's why the UN was optimal: it could both destroy AND recreate/realign the multiverse. Big difference.

hey galan

how would u rank the three

What 3?

lt
celestials
franklin