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ok, i think three years is enough for even the most giddy fanboy to form a hype-free opinion, so i figured we should do a poll. your final critique. say what you wish, but dont forget to vote

:edit: i'll vote later

3 years later? Might wanna do another edit...on your subject title.

ahh shit i cant. we'll just have to wake queeq up. *bangs on cage*

You can't just go to edit...advanced...change the name?

Anyway...I voted the second one...

I love SW...but I think it sucks sometimes.

15 minute time limit

Closing. Reason: BS!

Second chance, make it work peeps.

I've voted. A few years down the line I've finally formed my opinion. If you want evidence for my obvious opinion on the PT, just ask. But for the time being, I have things to do.

What'd you vote?

I haven't voted yet...

so far its pretty damning

I voted for the "OK" choice.

i hope the poll choices i make were consistant with popular opinions. "disappointed" was the trickiest, since its very specific.

i must admit, thats the one i voted on.

Originally posted by queeq
What'd you vote?

That it failed. Not the best "wording" for the choice, but best that suits my feelings. The PT had the scope, but not the attitude. The attitude is what made the OT for me.

I'm for awesome.

Seriously, the worst Prequel kicks the shit out most other sci-fi/action/comic book films.


I'll be back with why the PT works, what makes it great, and why it'll last just as long as the OT... now as part of the "SAGA"... a little later tonight.

(got work to do right now.)

Originally posted by sithsaber408
I'm for awesome.

Seriously, the worst Prequel kicks the shit out most other sci-fi/action/comic book films.


I'll be back with why the PT works, what makes it great, and why it'll last just as long as the OT... now as part of the "SAGA"... a little later tonight.

(got work to do right now.)

Before you do, I'll nitpick at some of your points, mainly that the worst prequel "kicks the shit out of most other sci-fi/action/comic book films". That is simply not true.

My first example is Serenity. Joss Whedon based the events of Firefly and Serenity on the Falcon and Han Solo was the inspiration for Serenity's captain, Mal Reynolds. Serenity has the bare basics of a good formula, something none of the films in the PT have, yet something the OT was built upon; interesting characters the audience can relate too, dry humour and a sense of wonderment at the size of the universe.

Albeit, Serenity does not have the scope of Star Wars, it could never do, but it doesn't ask for any more than what it already has, and that is a solid, adventure film with enough humour, action and suspense to cater for a large audience. The Prequel trilogy had action, and that is it. (I feel for you if you found the C3PO jokes entertaining!)

Another example is Minority Report. Technically, it delives a blow in the nuts to any Star Wars film, OT included, and has the script and characters to take it beyond anything from the Prequel Trilogy.

God, even the 5th Element, as self indulgent and overblown as it is, is better than any of the Prequel films, and the dodgy looking car chase is much more effective in that film, than the speeder chase in AOTC.

Alien and Aliens, Blade Runner, A Scanner Darkly, War of the Worlds (both incarnations) too name just a couple, are much better than one of the Prequel Trilogy.

As a closing comment, I'd like to ask you again, do you seriously consider the worst of the PT to be superior to any of these films? Even when the other films mentioned include a great deal more talent, direction and focus than even the best of the PT?

Originally posted by exanda kane
My first example is Serenity.

no...just...no. lets be fair about it. watched serenity once, and only once, first half. then i fell asleep. i bought it on dvd because i heard all the hype and figured id like it. lesson learned


Originally posted by exanda kane
...and the dodgy looking car chase is much more effective in that film, than the speeder chase in AOTC.

holy shit thats actually kinda true

Originally posted by Schecter
no...just...no. lets be fair about it. watched serenity once, and only once, first half. then i fell asleep. i bought it on dvd because i heard all the hype and figured id like it. lesson learned

If I get what your saying, and I'm really not sure what this means, then your personal reception of the film has little to do with the fact that in essence, Serenity is much similar to the OT than the PT is to it's forebears.

Originally posted by exanda kane
If I get what your saying, and I'm really not sure what this means, then your personal reception of the film has little to do with the fact that in essence, Serenity is much similar to the OT than the PT is to it's forebears.

if your simply talking about related plots, then fine. it just seemed strongly suggested that serenety was of the same quality as the PT. although the PT disappoints me, i was still able to enjoy a few viewings of it.

I took the OK road, there are aspects of the three films i like mainly the darkside decent, darth maul and the hidden buttsecks reel but things like jar jar, are you an angel?, GG, Count Dickupu and blinged up starships rubbed the shine off the hype. I feel the need to purify myself with a dose of ESB.

forgot to add, if any of you guys think the poll options are slanted, please say something while the thread is young.

The PT was great, it added more depth to the saga.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
The PT was great, it added more cgi action to the saga.

You changed my post, now i am mad- says to himself - there is no emotion, there is peace. PT had some new great characters, sure some wore incredibly bad, we all know who, but it showed the history of the OT, it compliments the OT fine.

The OT didn't need to be complimented. Christmas Special was enough embarrasment as it was thank you.

The PT wasn't an embarrassment, except for Jar Jar, but he is just 1 character.

all i know is i likely never again want to watch anything but the last the last 20 minutes of TPM. and the second half of RotS. imho most of the PT consisted of bland filler.

maybe if someone made an edit. just one movie.

I voted for awesome, just to piss off all the haters.

I wish there was a choice between OK and Awesome. Thats where I would rank both the PT and OT.

i dont think there are any haters left to piss off. at least thats my theory .
so you're implying you didnt make an honest vote?

I made a honest vote, I clarified where my preference would lie.

ok i see.

anyway, to make even more subcategories for people who love the film would only hinder your side of the opinion poll by further splitting your numbers. to be fair i didnt do that since in the end the 'haters' would have the edge.

Originally posted by exanda kane
Before you do, I'll nitpick at some of your points, mainly that the worst prequel "kicks the shit out of most other sci-fi/action/comic book films". That is simply not true.

My first example is Serenity.
Albeit, Serenity does not have the scope of Star Wars, it could never do, but it doesn't ask for any more than what it already has, and that is a solid, adventure film with enough humour, action and suspense to cater for a large audience. The Prequel trilogy had action, and that is it. (I feel for you if you found the C3PO jokes entertaining!)

Another example is Minority Report. Technically, it delives a blow in the nuts to any Star Wars film, OT included, and has the script and characters to take it beyond anything from the Prequel Trilogy.

God, even the 5th Element, as self indulgent and overblown as it is, is better than any of the Prequel films, and the dodgy looking car chase is much more effective in that film, than the speeder chase in AOTC.

Alien and Aliens, Blade Runner, A Scanner Darkly, War of the Worlds (both incarnations) too name just a couple, are much better than one of the Prequel Trilogy.

As a closing comment, I'd like to ask you again, do you seriously consider the worst of the PT to be superior to any of these films? Even when the other films mentioned include a great deal more talent, direction and focus than even the best of the PT?

Suppose I should've clarified that post.

I know that for example Minority Report is better acted, directed, etc... than TPM and probably AOTC, and I loved it when I saw it in the theater.

But, I've seen it only once or twice since and while good, I've no desire to keep watching it.

Not so with any of the Starwars films.

They are simply better movies to me.. and I think that most sci-fi/action/comicbook fans would rather see ROTS than The Fifth Element, A Scanner Darkly, or War of the Worlds. (another great film, but only a one or two time repeater.)


Certainly they'd rather see it or AOTC or TPM than that boring ass Serenity movie.








So, I loved the prequels.

So did most people.

Don't let the popular backlash fool you, most reviewers praised TPM. AOTC was given so-so's, and ROTS ruled with just about every reviewer.

So critics opinions were fair to fantastic, of all three films.

Regular movie going audiences ate them up... a testament of this is that both TPM and ROTS are now in the top 10 films of all time. (and all six SW films are in the top 25)

Regular folks liked it.


The only people that feel the PT is some god-awful bastard child of the OT are the hardcore SW fans.... and that camp is split right down the middle, with some praising the PT and some bemoaning it.



So lets cut all the crap about "everybody hated the PT."

Bullshit.




I see the depth, the interweaving themes, the grand story, the character arcs, the battles, the worlds, and I love it.


I love it the way I loved Star Wars, Empire, and Jedi, as a kid of the 80's before I realized at 13 those films had Episode numbers in front of them.


I still remember to this day how it was when I saw the first TRAILER for the Special Editions coming to theatres..."for an entire generation, people have experienced starwars the only way its been possible, on the T.V. screen..."

Oh what a glorious time to be a Starwars fan!

Those films returned to theatres and WTFpWnEd everything for about 5 weeks straight.

StarWars SE beat out a new Tom Cruise film for first in the box office, and was replaced two weeks later by Empire.


And I got it.

StarWars was gonna come back to theatres.

Having watched them all on VHS and Super-BETA tape since the age of 4, I was that second generation of kids that grew up with the OT. Too young for the theatrical releases, but born with them all around. (I actually was born in Feb. of '83 so I guess technically I was around for part of the original release.)



And I realized that Empire was called V, and Jedi was called VI, so there had to be a I,II, and III.

And seeing the SE's I knew what Lucas was doing. He was getting us ready.


Hell, I still remember seeing the first Teaser POSTER for TPM, just the solitary image of the young boy Anakin against the desert of Tatooine, with a looming shadow. I was walking through a theatre after some crappy movie, Mimic I think, and I spotted it across the hall and ran over to it.

When the movie arrived, I was 16.

No spoilers, no internet, just the Teaser trailer that I went bat-shit over when it played in front of some movie in '98 that I can't remember now.

I went in expecting a new Starwars movie, one that would begin to show me the old republic and how it ended in the empire with vader.


Boy, did I get both!

I took a bus and a light rail train to the best theatre in the next town and about 9 of my friends to watch it opening day, and see it at about noon.

I don't know about you, but my screening was packed.

I loved the expanded worlds, the amazing visuals, the seriousness of Qui-gon when he realizes what he's found, and the action at the end.

And believe me, those in our showing cheered and clapped when Darth Maul got cut in half.

I was impacted hard by Qui-gon's death, just because I wasn't spoiled.

The ending was great, with Obi defiantly taking anakin, and Palps promising to "watch him with great interest" and with the promise that stuff was just gonna get crazier in the next one.


AOTC I also saw on opening day, and I was totally spoiled for that one.

Can't apologize for loving it.

It has a slow start, but the speeder chase is awesome, Obi-wan and Anakin in the club is great, it reeks of the classic starwars feel.

Just how I imagined old Jedi Knights would have been.

The Kamino stuff was pretty good, but it pics up greatly as Obi and Jango fight.

The tatooine stuff is brilliance.

Seeing the homestead, Owen and Beru's relationship revealed, the scene where Anakin contemplates against the twin suns is reversed from Luke's position and we look in on his choice, whereas with Luke we look out on his destiny. Shmi's death is done quite well, and I feel for the guy. His major outburst is not explicitly shown, but is a hint of where he will go.

The scene in the garage is great. "I killed them. I killed them all. There dead, every single one them. And not just the men," (slow darkside music starts playing 'oh-ohhh-ohh') "but the women," (anakin looks aside as the pain and guilt hit him for his next statement) "and the children too." (just as quick he switches back) "There like animals and I slaughtered them like animals. I hate them!"


Dude, there was dead silence and shivers all around my packed out screening.

Then you have the fun in the droid factory and the arena followed by the awesome sight of Jedi running with lightsabers ignited like the Braveheart elite.

Followed up by the duels, which together all 3 short ones make one great sequence.

And the end, you see palps with the army, you know it's gonna hit the fan, you see poor anakin and padme married, knowing that their choice is going to damn everybody but feeling bad for them anyway since they really love each other, and BAM! roll credits.

People screamed dude. People cheered.

I asked somebody walking out of the show ending before ours went in "How was it?" hoping for some indicator. He said: "It's the best one ever!"

I agreed.


I won't spend any time really defending ROTS, as it's critical reception and status with just about all fans defends itself. (sorry Bites!)


Suffice to say that there were more cheers, and gasps, and held breath moments (think of the ruminations scene) in the last one than the others put together, and I saw quite a few grown men and women crying when it was all said and done. (I was close, but I didn't crack.)



So that was my theatrical experience of the PT.

Obviously, seeing them again and again on DVD I've become aware of the limitations more and more now that I'm not on a "new SW in theatres" high...

And "bashers" are right. They are there.

The dialogue is corny and silly in places in TPM. The kid isn't a great actor. The plot moves slowly. It has drawn out senate sequences, and boring trade federation stuff.

The love scenes are over-the-top and wooden in AOTC. CG is dodgy in a few places.

ROTS is not without warts, having cheezy lines and stiff acting, as well as cartoony CG in some places. Anakin's fall is rather fast.


I see all this as a young adult, and not a teen raised on SW going nuts for new SW.

I also see the OT with a more critical eye as well, but that's another discussion.

(Empire is still my favorite of all six.)


But you know what, I see the problems, the detractions, and .....


I don't care!

They bug me, but not enough to stop watching awesome starwars films, and certainly not enough to say that these incredibly revolutionary, magical, fantasy films are "horrible", or "Terrible" or the infamous "raped my childhood" BS that got bantered about.


I see all the care and time that Lucas took to make his story, to add new parts, to have the plots and themes connect to the OT and within each other as well and I'm one of the firm believers that he pulled off something unprecedented in film history by completing and changing his original trilogy into a six movie saga, an incredible story in itself, many years in the making.


starwars

OMG that was really long.

I'll read for class instead firefirefireph

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Suppose I should've clarified that post.

I know that for example Minority Report is better acted, directed, etc... than TPM and probably AOTC, and I loved it when I saw it in the theater.

But, I've seen it only once or twice since and while good, I've no desire to keep watching it.

Not so with any of the Starwars films.

They are simply better movies to me.. and I think that most sci-fi/action/comicbook fans would rather see ROTS than The Fifth Element, A Scanner Darkly, or War of the Worlds. (another great film, but only a one or two time repeater.)


Certainly they'd rather see it or AOTC or TPM than that boring ass Serenity movie.








So, I loved the prequels.

So did most people.

Don't let the popular backlash fool you, most reviewers praised TPM. AOTC was given so-so's, and ROTS ruled with just about every reviewer.

So critics opinions were fair to fantastic, of all three films.

Regular movie going audiences ate them up... a testament of this is that both TPM and ROTS are now in the top 10 films of all time. (and all six SW films are in the top 25)

Regular folks liked it.


The only people that feel the PT is some god-awful bastard child of the OT are the hardcore SW fans.... and that camp is split right down the middle, with some praising the PT and some bemoaning it.



So lets cut all the crap about "everybody hated the PT."

Bullshit.




I see the depth, the interweaving themes, the grand story, the character arcs, the battles, the worlds, and I love it.


I love it the way I loved Star Wars, Empire, and Jedi, as a kid of the 80's before I realized at 13 those films had Episode numbers in front of them.


I still remember to this day how it was when I saw the first TRAILER for the Special Editions coming to theatres..."for an entire generation, people have experienced starwars the only way its been possible, on the T.V. screen..."

Oh what a glorious time to be a Starwars fan!

Those films returned to theatres and WTFpWnEd everything for about 5 weeks straight.

StarWars SE beat out a new Tom Cruise film for first in the box office, and was replaced two weeks later by Empire.


And I got it.

StarWars was gonna come back to theatres.

Having watched them all on VHS and Super-BETA tape since the age of 4, I was that second generation of kids that grew up with the OT. Too young for the theatrical releases, but born with them all around. (I actually was born in Feb. of '83 so I guess technically I was around for part of the original release.)



And I realized that Empire was called V, and Jedi was called VI, so there had to be a I,II, and III.

And seeing the SE's I knew what Lucas was doing. He was getting us ready.


Hell, I still remember seeing the first Teaser POSTER for TPM, just the solitary image of the young boy Anakin against the desert of Tatooine, with a looming shadow. I was walking through a theatre after some crappy movie, Mimic I think, and I spotted it across the hall and ran over to it.

When the movie arrived, I was 16.

No spoilers, no internet, just the Teaser trailer that I went bat-shit over when it played in front of some movie in '98 that I can't remember now.

I went in expecting a new Starwars movie, one that would begin to show me the old republic and how it ended in the empire with vader.


Boy, did I get both!

I took a bus and a light rail train to the best theatre in the next town and about 9 of my friends to watch it opening day, and see it at about noon.

I don't know about you, but my screening was packed.

I loved the expanded worlds, the amazing visuals, the seriousness of Qui-gon when he realizes what he's found, and the action at the end.

And believe me, those in our showing cheered and clapped when Darth Maul got cut in half.

I was impacted hard by Qui-gon's death, just because I wasn't spoiled.

The ending was great, with Obi defiantly taking anakin, and Palps promising to "watch him with great interest" and with the promise that stuff was just gonna get crazier in the next one.


AOTC I also saw on opening day, and I was totally spoiled for that one.

Can't apologize for loving it.

It has a slow start, but the speeder chase is awesome, Obi-wan and Anakin in the club is great, it reeks of the classic starwars feel.

Just how I imagined old Jedi Knights would have been.

The Kamino stuff was pretty good, but it pics up greatly as Obi and Jango fight.

The tatooine stuff is brilliance.

Seeing the homestead, Owen and Beru's relationship revealed, the scene where Anakin contemplates against the twin suns is reversed from Luke's position and we look in on his choice, whereas with Luke we look out on his destiny. Shmi's death is done quite well, and I feel for the guy. His major outburst is not explicitly shown, but is a hint of where he will go.

The scene in the garage is great. "I killed them. I killed them all. There dead, every single one them. And not just the men," (slow darkside music starts playing 'oh-ohhh-ohh') "but the women," (anakin looks aside as the pain and guilt hit him for his next statement) "and the children too." (just as quick he switches back) "There like animals and I slaughtered them like animals. I hate them!"


Dude, there was dead silence and shivers all around my packed out screening.

Then you have the fun in the droid factory and the arena followed by the awesome sight of Jedi running with lightsabers ignited like the Braveheart elite.

Followed up by the duels, which together all 3 short ones make one great sequence.

And the end, you see palps with the army, you know it's gonna hit the fan, you see poor anakin and padme married, knowing that their choice is going to damn everybody but feeling bad for them anyway since they really love each other, and BAM! roll credits.

People screamed dude. People cheered.

I asked somebody walking out of the show ending before ours went in "How was it?" hoping for some indicator. He said: "It's the best one ever!"

I agreed.


I won't spend any time really defending ROTS, as it's critical reception and status with just about all fans defends itself. (sorry Bites!)


Suffice to say that there were more cheers, and gasps, and held breath moments (think of the ruminations scene) in the last one than the others put together, and I saw quite a few grown men and women crying when it was all said and done. (I was close, but I didn't crack.)



So that was my theatrical experience of the PT.

Obviously, seeing them again and again on DVD I've become aware of the limitations more and more now that I'm not on a "new SW in theatres" high...

And "bashers" are right. They are there.

The dialogue is corny and silly in places in TPM. The kid isn't a great actor. The plot moves slowly. It has drawn out senate sequences, and boring trade federation stuff.

The love scenes are over-the-top and wooden in AOTC. CG is dodgy in a few places.

ROTS is not without warts, having cheezy lines and stiff acting, as well as cartoony CG in some places. Anakin's fall is rather fast.


I see all this as a young adult, and not a teen raised on SW going nuts for new SW.

I also see the OT with a more critical eye as well, but that's another discussion.

(Empire is still my favorite of all six.)


But you know what, I see the problems, the detractions, and .....


I don't care!

They bug me, but not enough to stop watching awesome starwars films, and certainly not enough to say that these incredibly revolutionary, magical, fantasy films are "horrible", or "Terrible" or the infamous "raped my childhood" BS that got bantered about.


I see all the care and time that Lucas took to make his story, to add new parts, to have the plots and themes connect to the OT and within each other as well and I'm one of the firm believers that he pulled off something unprecedented in film history by completing and changing his original trilogy into a six movie saga, an incredible story in itself, many years in the making.


starwars "And then you took the words right out of my mouth, it must have been while you were ki---" Not finishing that line.

But still, feckin' awesome man. Right on the ball.

Everyone needs to assert their masculinity by kissing another man now and again.

...and Sith needs to be kissed by a man

I think Serenity is a bad comparison. Not a very good film.

Well, most of you know my opinion, but in short. I find the PT disappointing. The OT is a classic, groundbreaking in its time and two of the films still rank high in the top ten most favourite film lists. The PT had nothing of that grandeur or lasting effect. We had LOTr simultaneously and that kinda did what SW did in the 70s and 80s. It was the grand effects opera everyone went to see and will cherish. The PT is fairly well made but it kinda misses the point on some crucial moments, leaving a lot of non-geek fans like us luke-warm. Judging by its lasting effect, it's clear to me none of the PT films will ever reach a classic, lasting status like the OT did. And without the many limitations Lucas had in the 70s and 80s I think it's fair to say we can consider it a failure.

i was going to write a long post about being a fan of the OT and seeing the films pretty much when they were released up to the PT but it would be zzzzz worthy

in regards to Sithsabres comments to the guy leaving AOTC as they were going in and the comments of "its great...the best one ever" myself and my mate came out of the cinema and told everyone it was ****ing terrible
ill never forget the look on some of their faces

ill agree with the Anakin "i killed them " scene
that was a PT highlight...along with the Opera scene in Sith
funny that....two quiet dialogue scenes in loud cgi action heavy films being highlights

as for the Cantina scene in AOTC they are like a pair of cops...a Freebie and the Bean in outer Space...as far away you can get from my pre PT visions of the Jedi

the droid factory scene is an unessasary late addition that feels like it was made for level 9 of AOTC the videogame

ive commented on the Jedi battle and the swordfights are lame with lamer facial reaction shots
anyone else think that every Yoda fight in the PT looks ****ing ridiculous...surely im not on my own
they look stupid

im a long time SW fan
the thrill turned to chill the first time i saw the S.E trailer and thought "what the **** is that big mouthed cgi singing alien???"
its been downhill from there on

i got a buzz when i saw the TPM poster in my cinema too
but that disappeared when i bought the illustrated screenplay read it and thought that they had left out a few pages
i went to see TPM on the midnight screening the first night and before the flick everone had the expression of someone about to get blown by Baywatch era Pamela Anderson
when the movie finished most of them looked like theyd been blown by Jackie Goody
i remember people being interviewed and saying "well it was poorly written,no stand out characters and Jar Jar was annoying" and then when asked for what they thought of it as a whole they said "it was sattisfying"
that sums up TPM...never have i heard people sticking up for a film that they know 75% of is crap
its like( and i think ive said this before ) having a nice breakfast with two turds instead of sausages knowing they are made out of turd and eating them and going "HMMM YUMMY! that was completley satisfying"

but i never learned
i remember ringing a pal after AOTC and he asked what it was like
he knew..his voice was like someone asking how a relative was after a car crash
AOTC was an abysmal experiance as you thought Lucas would have listened to some crtisisizm

but he didnt
he was surrounded by Yes men
he needed a Kurtz involved with the PT
McCallum just sucked Georges **** and did has he was told
Lucas is The Emperor who answers to no one
and that is why with the PT he failed

So a long post after all.... hehehehe.

I remember talking to non-SW fans after TPM came out. who knew I was a big fan. They all said: it looks great but there's no story. And I thought (Having read the novel before the movie came out): that is shocking, there's a lot of story but LUcas decided to hide it all. I still think that's what he did with the entire PT: he hid the story so we mainly got a lot of fluff.

Originally posted by sithsaber408


Regular movie going audiences ate them up... a testament of this is that both TPM and ROTS are now in the top 10 films of all time. (and all six SW films are in the top 25)



I'll start with that point. It's wrong; no one in their right mind could even put any of the Prequel films, or even all of the originals on a pedastel that high, and if they do, they must be some of the most drall, grey people with little to no intelligence about them. I mean, I'm talking cretins of neandertal taste here.

I'll continue and conclude with my argument after I've shoved your ill founded and porly concieved statements later.

Originally posted by queeq


I think Serenity is a bad comparison. Not a very good film.



Not at all; its certainly a movie of B movie calibre, but then, so is Star Wars, and Lucas should not kid himself that its anything more. Serenity doesn't have the expanse of Star Wars, but it doesn't ask for that much, all it is is a tight script, acted as best as it could be, with some great archetypal characters. That is what the originals had, but what the prequels certainly lack.

Originally posted by queeq
So a long post after all.... hehehehe.

I remember talking to non-SW fans after TPM came out. who knew I was a big fan. They all said: it looks great but there's no story.

i had the same experiance but they just said: JAR JAR
and laughed
nothing else
a true story

im tired of dissing the PT and ill leave you with these
as i like to post pics heres some images from the PT to explain my hatred a little more

and these are actual stills from a "live action" flick
its TOY STORY in outer space!

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o60/cylob46/ep3_ia_91240.jpg
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o60/cylob46/ep3_ia_96395.jpg
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o60/cylob46/ep3_ia_96591.jpg

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Suppose I should've clarified that post.

I know that for example Minority Report is better acted, directed, etc... than TPM and probably AOTC, and I loved it when I saw it in the theater.

But, I've seen it only once or twice since and while good, I've no desire to keep watching it.

Not so with any of the Starwars films.



You've already contradicted yourself with your opening statement, and have conceded your point.



That is what you said, but it is simply not the case. As you agreed, Minority Report's cinematography boasted more than any Star Wars film could achieve, it was cleverer, and the acting was far superior to anything in the PT.

True, Minority Report does not have the replay value of the Original Trilogy, but lets just clarify terms a minute here. Star Wars is a space opera and borrows more from fables of fantasy than it does from the science fiction genre. It's a western in space and it has all the traits that suck the viewer into the films reality; the Star Wars galaxy. What I stated in another recent post was that the Prequel Trilogy lacked the wonderment at the size and expanse of the universe, while the OT heralded it as its finest feature.

When we looked into the front canopy of the Falcon, we realised just how big this galaxy was, and how small our heroes were in comparison. We saw the galaxy through there eyes. Another example I gave is Serenity, for that too, builds upon the themes that the original trilogy adhered too.

This theme is simply disregarded in the prequels, as we watch through the clouded eyes of Anakin, as he appears at one end of the galaxy and then at another, completely oblvious to the simple illusions Lucas first created when audiences saw the opening titles in 19977.

Minority Report does not give a notion of a wide, perculiar galaxy, it simply keeps things on a realistic level, and keeps us within the frame of mini action man Tom Cruise. The same could be said for Blade Runner, albeit the world of Los Angeles in 2018 is drastically different.

Originally posted by Schecter
if your simply talking about related plots, then fine. it just seemed strongly suggested that serenety was of the same quality as the PT. although the PT disappoints me, i was still able to enjoy a few viewings of it.

No, it is little to nothing to do with the plot. It is these archetypal characters that inhabit these pieces of metal in space, a kind of analysis on human nature as they drift through the blackness of space in a great chunk of metal.

The Falcon had Chewie, Han, C3PO and others, conflicting with each other, arguing, humurous banter developed and we gazed in wonder at the size of the galaxy Lucas had created.

Who remembers the wonderful moment in Empire when Han realises C3PO is completely right, and whispers C3PO's advice through the corner of his mouth to Chewie? That was when C3PO was funny.

Remember the look as Han, Chewie, Ben and Luke peer up through the Falcons canopy at the the "small moon". It created space, size and expanse which had never been realised in the cinema before.

Serenity builds upon this idea, one that Ridley Scott twisted as did James Cameron with Alien and Aliens. Joss Whedon isn't a great, revolutionary director or writer, but he knows how to right a solid script, and thats exactly what Serenity has. It's B-movie material with no self deception, like the original Star Wars. Whedon sees Han, Chewie and the Falcon's other passengers, expands them alot, and creates 8 different, interesting and entertaining characters. You get the few minutes on the Falcon with the crew expanded into a 2hour piece of fun and enjoyment. It's nothing more, but it does it well.

Why the original Star Wars is better? The Mos Eisley cantina scene. The original Star Wars is just Firefly/Serenity with a more interesting galaxy to hang around in, plus a few celabite monks to add to the mezra. Don't kid yourself that Star Wars is any more. The PT is proff that it's not the case.

Originally posted by sithsaber408

Don't let the popular backlash fool you, most reviewers praised TPM. AOTC was given so-so's, and ROTS ruled with just about every reviewer.

So critics opinions were fair to fantastic, of all three films.



A critics opinion on The Phantom Menace - http://www.slate.com/id/28553

A critics opinion of The Attack of the Clones -
http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20020510/REVIEWS/205100305/1023

A critics opinion of Revenge of the Sith -
http://www.slate.com/id/2118604

As a note to anyone who may think I generally hate the Prequels, I'll tell you now that the last half of Revenge of the Sith is generally some of the best stuff since Empire Strikes Back. I don't "hate" any movie, nor do I feel there's any point wasting time "hating" a film. I am just gobsmacked by how such a visionary director like Lucas managed to come up with Episodes 1,2 and the first half of 3, especially with the resources he had at his disposal. It's a great disapointment.

Originally posted by sithsaber408


Regular folks liked it.


The only people that feel the PT is some god-awful bastard child of the OT are the hardcore SW fans.... and that camp is split right down the middle, with some praising the PT and some bemoaning it.



So lets cut all the crap about "everybody hated the PT."

Bullshit.



I personally did not say anyone hated the PT. But there's no denying that the PT was recieved with sheer indifference by the majority of cinema goers. When in the topic in conversation, you hear people say "They're OK. Not as good as the originals though." That's not bias, that's pretty much lifted straight from the mouth of little Joey Bloggs who takes advantage of Orange Wednesdays to see his supplement of American on screen garbage.

A little information here on me, as I'd hate to give the impression I'm one of these people that go all gung ho on Star Wars and take the bus wearing a Vader mask and flanked by subordinates in Stormie customes. I enjoy films, I also enjoy Star Wars films. I would consider myself a fan, yes, I have all the DVDs apart from the Phantom Menace (had it on VHS), but excessive viewing of any Star Wars film can just lead to people becoming jaded. Star Wars is a great achievment of a visonary director, yes, but it's not the be all and end all of cinema.

Anakin's pod race isn't the highest staple of cinema, Death From Above and the other choppers of Robert Duvalls squadron riding to war along to Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries, is.

imho:
terminator > prequels
aliens > prequels
star trek (wrath of khan + undiscovered country + first contact) > prequels
dune > prequels

i may think of more scifi later, but you get the picture
its not about 'hating', thats just the way i am. i will grab any of
those movies before grabbing a PT movie to watch, not out of some
corny fanboy hatred and something to prove, but rather how i would
genuinely feel like spending a couple of hours in front of the tube.

Ahh, I leave Star Trek alone. I have a feeling I just wouldn't get on with Star Trek.

But yes, Dune, Alien (sequels) and Terminator 1 and 2 would certainly come above any of the PT for me.

i think too many people rob themselves of enriching scifi when denying star trek (as well as trekkies avoiding star wars).

deep space nine and next generation were awesome series. imho its just like star wars in the respect that your experience is greatly hindered if you cant take the good with the bad. (thus why i pity people who cant recognise RotJ for the great film that it is, just because of a few teddy bears) thats why i accept ewoks just as i accept shatner's bad acting.

my problem with the PT doesnt focus on moments. granted there are some really crap filler moments just as there are awesome moments in all three films. what really matters to me is how i feel overall when the credits roll.
"was that worth yet another 2 hours of my life".

like i said, a dream come true for me would be a complete re-cut of the PT, all the best and plot relevant parts minus every bit of CGI candy filler and horribly dry romance. imho it would be 2-3 hours long and downright awesome.

i dont get the fuss over Serenity at all
i caught episodes of Firefly and they were ok compared to the usual tv sci fi dredge
but as for the movie it didnt work for me
some typical Wheedonesque dialogue and a couple of witty moments as per but what did i miss?

Wow even Dune? I thought most people didn't like it (I did!).

Originally posted by vintageSW77
i dont get the fuss over Serinity at all
what am i missing

from my point of view its a ten minute flick. 10 minutes
of watching and zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz and then
when i wake up the credits are rolling ok i'll stop teehehe

:edit:

Originally posted by queeq
Wow even Dune? I thought most people didn't like it (I did!).

i loved it. its just the hardcore fanboys who hate it due to all the alterations lynch made. i somewhat agree that the story was butchered, but i still think its a terriffic film

Great for the sleepless nights.

Not much of a dream come true, but more of a neccesity for the sake of Lucas' reputation woul;d be reason to completely rewrite the PT from conception. I'm not just talking about little scenes here, but drastically removing or changing certain things. One thing I remember realising was that the Jedi Council being such an indifferent, impartial entity, didn't really allow me to sympathise with them. I actually wanted to leave the cinema witnessing there death as though they recieved just cause.

But then again, that's an opinion, and I have no real idea whether it would have worked or not.

Originally posted by vintageSW77
i dont get the fuss over Serinity at all
i caught episodes of Firefly and they were ok
but as for the movie it didnt work

It's nothing special, but it was well written, entertaining and exhilirating for what it was. Two hours of harmless fun.

Originally posted by Schecter
i loved it. its just the hardcore fanboys who hate it due to all the alterations lynch made. i somewhat agree that the story was butchered, but i still think its a terriffic film

Me too. Especially seeing the latest tv-series of Dune it is so clear what a great visionist Lynch is in adapting that novel. Hope he one day gets a chance to cut the very long version he had in mind.

i want to see it remade as a series of films and the full story told (up till god emporer)

:edit: HEY!!! i know what you're doing!!!

Me?????

Well, don't spoil it for me, I was advised to dismiss the other books by a friend. But there is a series?

Whenever I watch/read Dune though, I cannot help but smile at the thought of the spice, and how it's been used in Star Wars (that'd be EU mind). Adds alot of fun dimensions to the Star Wars galaxy.

there are many parallels between dune and starwars. its obvious that lucas at least read the books (at least the first) and was inluenced by them. there was a thread about it at TF.net if i remember correctly.

He was? Can you remember any of them off hand?

I remember this from my time when I played Star Wars Galaxies (between the usual at university); that the Spice idea as the illegal contraband in the SW universe was not a product of anything to do with Lucas. This was about the Smuggler profession, when all the nerds went up in uproar when they couldn't actually smuggle in the game.

cant find the thread, but google produced this site:
http://www.spookybug.com/origins/dune.html

(mind you its full of spoilers)

nope, wait. found the thread (also spoiler heavy)

http://boards.theforce.net/The_Star_Wars_Saga/b10456/12073632/p1

Very interesting.

Although I have pretty much read this thread and thats it (just the one in the link) I have to take a neutral opinion and suggest that both creators were just re-using old mythology and story telling techniques, instead of outright plaguerism.

For example, the Luke/Paul connection; it's just an archetypal character in use (like those that Serenity employs, had to get that one in there), with parellels like Gurney and Obi-Wan as the Wizards, and so many sci-fi/fantasty franchises use a psuedo religous cult that employ magic that alot of those points are simply coincidence and the result of conventional story telling.

May I just pose a question here? Yes, of course I will.

In the PT, or while watching the PT, who's eyes do you think you see the world from? What characters do you really sympathise with.

Originally posted by Alliance
Everyone needs to assert their masculinity by kissing another man now and again.

...and Sith needs to be kissed by a man







Originally posted by exanda kane
I'll start with that point. It's wrong; no one in their right mind could even put any of the Prequel films, or even all of the originals on a pedastel that high, and if they do, they must be some of the most drall, grey people with little to no intelligence about them. I mean, I'm talking cretins of neandertal taste here.



Hey Exanda.

I think you took my entire post as being directed at you.

Other than the first part about why I like StarWars PT better than movies that ARE better made, it was a general post.


You know, my opinion given in an opinion thread. I suppose you can debate facts, but not opinions really.

But you bring up good points, so lets address them:Originally posted by exanda kane
I'll start with that point. It's wrong; no one in their right mind could even put any of the Prequel films, or even all of the originals on a pedastel that high, and if they do, they must be some of the most drall, grey people with little to no intelligence about them. I mean, I'm talking cretins of neandertal taste here.

I'll continue and conclude with my argument after I've shoved your ill founded and porly concieved statements later.

You must have thought that when I said: "Regular movie going audiences ate them up... a testament of this is that both TPM and ROTS are now in the top 10 films of all time. (and all six SW films are in the top 25)"....that I was referring to some poll, or some movie magazine rank.


No.

I'm talking about box office.


1 Titanic $600,788,188
2 Star Wars $460,998,007
3 Shrek 2 $441,226,247
4 E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial $435,110,554
5 Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace $431,088,301
6 Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest $423,315,812
7 Spider-Man $403,706,375 2002
8 Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith $380,270,577
9 The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King $377,027,325
10 Spider-Man 2 $373,585,825
11 The Passion of the Christ $370,782,930
12 Jurassic Park $357,067,947
13 The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers $341,786,758
14 Finding Nemo $339,714,978
15 Forrest Gump $329,694,499
16 The Lion King $328,541,776
17 Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone $317,575,550
18 The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring $314,776,170
19 Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones $310,676,740
20 Return of the Jedi $309,306,177
21 Independence Day $306,169,268
22 Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl $305,413,918
23 The Sixth Sense $293,506,292
24 The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe $291,710,957
25 The Empire Strikes Back $290,475,067



So I was 100% correct. Movie audiences loved or enjoyed the prequels, two of them in fact are now in the top ten of all time.

Your personal feelings that those dollars equal: "drall, grey people with little to no intelligence about them. I mean, I'm talking cretins of neandertal taste here." notwithstanding, it's fair to say that the films were HUGELY successful with audiences.


Those who "hated" them or "sat back in horror" after a screening of TPM surely wouldn't come back again after the bottom fell out... after their "childhood had been raped."

And if they did, it would only be once or at the most twice to make sure the film really sucked.

Many people relate stories of seeing TPM 5 or 6, up to 10 times even. Explain that one.
Originally posted by exanda kane
A critics opinion on The Phantom Menace - http://www.slate.com/id/28553

A critics opinion of The Attack of the Clones -
http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20020510/REVIEWS/205100305/1023

A critics opinion of Revenge of the Sith -
http://www.slate.com/id/2118604

As a note to anyone who may think I generally hate the Prequels, I'll tell you now that the last half of Revenge of the Sith is generally some of the best stuff since Empire Strikes Back. I don't "hate" any movie, nor do I feel there's any point wasting time "hating" a film. I am just gobsmacked by how such a visionary director like Lucas managed to come up with Episodes 1,2 and the first half of 3, especially with the resources he had at his disposal. It's a great disapointment.

Just for fun, I'll take your second source Roger Ebert, and post his review of TPM: http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/19990517/REVIEWS/905170301/1023


You don't have to read it all, but it ends with:

"As surely as Anakin Skywalker points the way into the future of "Star Wars," so does "The Phantom Menace" raise the curtain on this new freedom for filmmakers. And it's a lot of fun. The film has correctly been given the PG rating; it's suitable for younger viewers and doesn't depend on violence for its effects. As for the bad rap about the characters--hey, I've seen space operas that put their emphasis on human personalities and relationships. They're called "Star Trek" movies. Give me transparent underwater cities and vast hollow senatorial spheres any day."

And includes the words: "an astonishing achievement in imaginative filmmaking."




Also TPM: http://www.reelviews.net/movies/s/sw99.html (3/12 stars out of 4)

AOTC-http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/2002/2002-05-15-star-wars-review.htm USA Today 3 1/2 out 4 stars

A quote: "No screen fantasy-adventure in recent memory has the showmanship of Clones' last 45 minutes."-Mike Clark, USA Today

"It's dark but has wonderfully funny moments; you care about the characters; and the action and special effects are first-rate."-Paul Clinton (CNN.com) http://archives.cnn.com/2002/SHOWBIZ/Movies/05/15/ca.s02.review.clinton.star.wars/index.html

"At the end, when the now computerized Yoda finally reveals his martial artistry, the film ascends to a kinetic life so teeming that even cranky adults may rediscover the quivering kid inside." -Richard Corliss TIME Magazine http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1002323-1,00.html (awesome six page review)



Don't even get me started on ROTS.


"It's good. I mean really good. Is ''Sith" the best of all the ''Star Wars" films? Let the arguing begin. But I'll go on record as saying that it is, without question, the most emotionally powerful of the six."-Ty Burr, Boston Globe http://www.boston.com/movies/display?display=movie&id=6889


"George Lucas has achieved what few artists do; he has created and populated a world of his own. His "Star Wars" movies are among the most influential, both technically and commercially, ever made. And they are fun. If he got bogged down in solemnity and theory in "Episode II: Attack of the Clones," the Force is in a jollier mood this time, and "Revenge of the Sith" is a great entertainment."- Roger Ebert, Chicago Sun Times http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050519/REVIEWS/50503002/1023



Ebert and hiis partner Roeper also gave the film their pattened: Two Thumbs Up review.

"This is by far the best film in the more recent trilogy, and also the best of the four episodes Mr. Lucas has directed. That's right (and my inner 11-year-old shudders as I type this): it's better than 'Star Wars.'"

"Even as he has pushed back into the Jedi past, Mr. Lucas has been inventing the cinematic future, and the sheer beauty, energy and visual coherence of "Revenge of the Sith" is nothing short of breathtaking."

"Mr. Lucas has surpassed Peter Jackson and Steven Spielberg in his exploitation of the new technology's aesthetic potential."

-A.O. Scott, New York Times (last 3 quotes)http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/16/movies/16star.html?ex=1273896000&en=de80e3d3d9553842&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss





Whew!


Now that wasn't meant as an attack, more of an explanation of how I formed my opinions.


1.) The movies were a huge hit with normal audiences.

They hold box office records, which are so high that it goes beyond the "fans supporting the franchise" idea. They gross just as much if not more than all other movies on the list that are liked by every type of person, not just "fanboys." (i.e. Forrest Gump or Shrek made just as much money and were watched and loved by all.)


2.) Critics had good impressions of them.

For every Major News Source detractor of EpI or EpII, you can find a Major News Source supporter. For EpIII it's unanimous: the film is great. It's one of the best SW's ever and was a big FU to all of the Lucas bashers.


3.) Starwars fans are split on the Prequel Trilogy.


And so here we are. I have my opinions, you have yours. Alliance (for the most part) agrees with me, Vintage agrees with you. Paul is somewhere in the middle I suppose.

This is normal, good, and as it should be.

And here we are all expressing our opinions.


But lets not cloud our opinions with ideas that just aren't true, like the Prequels were: "horrible", "critical failures", "loathed by audiences", and that if you enjoyed them you're " a fool with no concept of taste" etc...


They either worked for you, or didn't, or fell somewhere in between.


But they were commercially and critically successful, for the most part.

No, reading the Dune novels it is VERY clear that Lucas took a lot of ideas from Dune. I'm sure he treated it as source material as he did with Greek myths but also LOTR.

The sand planet, the special monk like class (Bene Gesserit - Jedi), the nobility ruling classes (like the Alderaan royalty), Jabba is Leto II... there's an endless list of little details as well. So he didn't copy it, that is clear but I am sure he was very inspired by it.
Also the great influencing war in the past (SW- Clone Wars, Dune - Butlerian Jihad) is such a concept. The Butlerian Jihad was a war on machines, eventually won by man and leading them to never be so dependent on machines. Heck, that's your PT clones vs. battle droids right there.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
I'm talking about box office.


1 Titanic $600,788,188
2 Star Wars $460,998,007
3 Shrek 2 $441,226,247
4 E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial $435,110,554
5 Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace $431,088,301
6 Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest $423,315,812
7 Spider-Man $403,706,375 2002
8 Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith $380,270,577
9 The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King $377,027,325
10 Spider-Man 2 $373,585,825
11 The Passion of the Christ $370,782,930
12 Jurassic Park $357,067,947
13 The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers $341,786,758
14 Finding Nemo $339,714,978
15 Forrest Gump $329,694,499
16 The Lion King $328,541,776
17 Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone $317,575,550
18 The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring $314,776,170
19 Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones $310,676,740
20 Return of the Jedi $309,306,177
21 Independence Day $306,169,268
22 Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl $305,413,918
23 The Sixth Sense $293,506,292
24 The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe $291,710,957
25 The Empire Strikes Back $290,475,067



So I was 100% correct. Movie audiences loved or enjoyed the prequels, two of them in fact are now in the top ten of all time.

to be fair, given inflation along with rip-off movie prices, you cannot compare movie success over a span of 30 years in simple dollar amount. what is relevant is the amount of tickets sold. now consider the average movie price from 77-83, which was around $5 i believe, if that.

If you correct them by inflation I think Gone with the Wind is still no. 1.

Originally posted by queeq
If you correct them by inflation I think Gone with the Wind is still no. 1.

point is we'll never know the true 'top selling film'. thats why i think the box office earnings ranking is pointless, unless they are simply comparing current releases.

Exactly. There are lists though that correct for inflation. But even then, there are more people around than 80 years ago and better distribution worldwide.

not to mention that going to the movies was more of a formal event when theaters were first doing business. so i would assume that people went alot less frequently back then (not the 70's, im talking about oooold cinema)

Originally posted by sithsaber408


1 Titanic $600,788,188
2 Star Wars $460,998,007
3 Shrek 2 $441,226,247
4 E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial $435,110,554
5 Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace $431,088,301
6 Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest $423,315,812
7 Spider-Man $403,706,375 2002
8 Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith $380,270,577
9 The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King $377,027,325
10 Spider-Man 2 $373,585,825
11 The Passion of the Christ $370,782,930
12 Jurassic Park $357,067,947
13 The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers $341,786,758
14 Finding Nemo $339,714,978
15 Forrest Gump $329,694,499
16 The Lion King $328,541,776
17 Harry Potter and the Philosiphers Stone $317,575,550
18 The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring $314,776,170
19 Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones $310,676,740
20 Return of the Jedi $309,306,177
21 Independence Day $306,169,268
22 Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl $305,413,918
23 The Sixth Sense $293,506,292
24 The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe $291,710,957
25 The Empire Strikes Back $290,475,067



So I was 100% correct. Movie audiences loved or enjoyed the prequels, two of them in fact are now in the top ten of all time.



That list in no way tells you people loved the films.

They went and saw them, of course, but that simply shows that people go and see films in the summer, and a Star Wars film is an event film with a very big heritage. Hell, the majority of the budget is spent on advertising and promotion, kids toys, fast food meals, tv slots, internet advertising, no wonder people went to see it.

Originally posted by Schecter
not to mention that going to the movies was more of a formal event when theaters were first doing business. so i would assume that people went alot less frequently back then (not the 70's, im talking about oooold cinema)

The 30s, 40s and early 50s aren't labelled the golden age of cinema for nothing, maybe I misunderstand your post, but cinema was at its busiest back then, and has and probably will never reach those heights again.

Originally posted by exanda kane
The 30s, 40s and early 50s aren't labelled the golden age of cinema for nothing, maybe I misunderstand your post, but cinema was at its busiest back then, and has and probably will never reach those heights again.

like i said, it was a formal affair. i just decided on a whim to see ep1 about 12 times in the theater. you didnt do that sort of thing back then. back then you made plans, dressed up, and went as if you were going to a fine restaurant or broadway show. so while the quality was greater, ill bet the frequency in which people went to the theater was far less. thats what i meant.

Originally posted by sithsaber408



Just for fun, I'll take your second source Roger Ebert, and post his review of TPM: http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/19990517/REVIEWS/905170301/1023


You don't have to read it all, but it ends with:

"As surely as Anakin Skywalker points the way into the future of "Star Wars," so does "The Phantom Menace" raise the curtain on this new freedom for filmmakers. And it's a lot of fun. The film has correctly been given the PG rating; it's suitable for younger viewers and doesn't depend on violence for its effects. As for the bad rap about the characters--hey, I've seen space operas that put their emphasis on human personalities and relationships. They're called "Star Trek" movies. Give me transparent underwater cities and vast hollow senatorial spheres any day."

And includes the words: "an astonishing achievement in imaginative filmmaking."

Fair enough. Alot of critics applauded it, some like Roger Ebert do know what they are talking about. But then you read some of these comments.




No one doubts there is showmanship in Attack of the Clones. In fact, that is all there is; there is no substance, nothing behind the CGI effects.



A personal reception here; but this critic has given little else. I simply did not care for the characters in Clones. Fullstop. It's debatable, but when you know the outcome of the story already, you've picked your squad, know who lives and who dies. You really have to wonder what kind of a novel experiment the PT was. The money involved was obviously a collateral result.




I hate to just disregard this "review", but it's not an analysis of the film, it's an overview of the film before it's theactrical release.




It's certainly arguable, but that doesn't concern me. I don't watch Star Wars for the love scenes when Lucas is directing. Golly, the dialogue is terrible.



This says nothing that I did not already say.



Simply put, no, it's not better than Star Wars. The last half...yes, the last half takes it far, but then we remember the rushed first hour and, oh dear god, we have to disagree.



Of course it is, but as I said earlier, where is the sense of Star Wars adventure?



That certainly is a lovely quote. Why? Because it's totally true. Not even old Georges mother could stop him exploiting these new technologies while completely disregarding the attitude and spirit which made his first two Star Wars films so unique.

Spielberg and Jackson have shown that they can integrate CGI into there films when and where appropriate; they don't puff there chest and display it like some boastful child or horny peacock, they use it in storytelling, they don't let it become the story.

Originally posted by Schecter
like i said, it was a formal affair. i just decided on a whim to see ep1 about 12 times in the theater. you didnt do that sort of thing back then. back then you made plans, dressed up, and went as if you were going to a fine restaurant or broadway show. so while the quality was greater, ill bet the frequency in which people went to the theater was far less. thats what i meant.

Sorry, I still misunderstand you. The last part that is.

The frequency in which people went to the theater was far more than today. Society is so very different these days, we being so casual, that it would hardly be a large factor.

Of course, you wouldn't see the same film twelve times back then, but the output of the major productions companies these days is around 12 a year. Back in the golden age of Hollywood, output of a major studio would be 52 films a year, yes, that's 1 film per week. Films like Star Wars weren't made back then.

interesting

yeah, lots of factors were different i guess. all the more reason why the success of films cant really be directly compared over a long timespan. imho if a more proper formula were applied, ANH would be figured as the most successful film of all time. titanic does not compare, and doesnt even belong in it's shadow, let alone overshadowing.

Well, how good a film is does not really come into it. I mean, I really really can't watch Gone With the Wind, but statistically counting inflation it holds all the records. I mean pretty much everyone saw it. There's no doubt the film has calibre, but I really don't want to be the one watching it.

The Empire Strikes Back is my favourite Star Wars flick by a long, long way, and it's also hailed by critics as the best Star Wars film, but it didn't recapture the success of the original.

Originally posted by exanda kane
May I just pose a question here? Yes, of course I will.

In the PT, or while watching the PT, who's eyes do you think you see the world from? What characters do you really sympathise with.

Count Dooku.

Somebody somewhere tracks the number of tickets sold as the best barometer of movie popularity, and I think last time I checked it was GWTW at the top of the leaderboard.

Interesting though, TESB is the lowest money maker of the SW films, and yet among the best reviewed.

Originally posted by chinabing


Interesting though, TESB is the lowest money maker of the SW films, and yet among the best reviewed.

Actually, I believe Return of the Jedi brought in less at the box office, If I remember rightly, which to be honest, I am not sure I do.

No, ROTJ did better than ESB.

Ahh, that settles that then. I'll have to have a look through the list Sithsaber copied and pasted, didn't think I saw it.

It's not long enough to include them all.

Originally posted by queeq
It's not long enough to include them all.

Sure it is.

I posted 1-25, and all six Starwars films are there, with ESB coming in at 25th.

Oh right... sorry. Didn't look really.

things are looking surpisingly well for the PT....from a certain point of view

15-3 when counting people who remain impressed to people who dont. however its unfavorable in the sense that only 7 out of 11 so far regard it as a film equal in quality to the OT....interesting

Aske them again in ten years. Or 30.

10 years: "i dont know what i was thinking....i cant watch that garbage anymore"

30 years: "wtf is the PT?"

Originally posted by Schecter
things are looking surpisingly well for the PT....from a certain point of view

15-3 when counting people who remain impressed to people who dont. however its unfavorable in the sense that only 7 out of 11 so far regard it as a film equal in quality to the OT....interesting Jury nullification!

Why?

interesting that thew PTM is the most grossing films of SW saga.

no it wasnt

Originally posted by sithsaber408

1 Titanic $600,788,188
2 Star Wars $460,998,007
3 Shrek 2 $441,226,247
4 E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial $435,110,554
5 Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace $431,088,301
6 Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest $423,315,812
7 Spider-Man $403,706,375 2002
8 Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith $380,270,577
9 The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King $377,027,325
10 Spider-Man 2 $373,585,825
11 The Passion of the Christ $370,782,930
12 Jurassic Park $357,067,947
13 The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers $341,786,758
14 Finding Nemo $339,714,978
15 Forrest Gump $329,694,499
16 The Lion King $328,541,776
17 Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone $317,575,550
18 The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring $314,776,170
19 Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones $310,676,740
20 Return of the Jedi $309,306,177
21 Independence Day $306,169,268
22 Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl $305,413,918
23 The Sixth Sense $293,506,292
24 The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe $291,710,957
25 The Empire Strikes Back $290,475,067

And tehse are relative rates, without inflation. If you'd count that I'm sure the PT would rate less than the OT.

^^^Aye, but then so would LOTR, Spiderman, Pirates, Jurrasic Park, Forest Gump, etc....


The OT would rule all!



Anyways, getting back on topic here (sorry if my posts de-railed the thread), I had a specific reason for posting the box office totals and critics reviews.


To remind us all debating on these boards that the PT wasn't some commerical or critical failure.

In fact, they were reviewed as either fair or fantastic (depending on who you asked) for EpI and EpII, and almost unanimously as awesome! for EpIII.

And they made tons of money.

The argument could be made: "Well, that's only because SW fans went to see them, over and over."

Incorrect. This may lead to them hitting 300 Mil and over yes, but for a film to even cross past 200 mil, it has to be a huge hit with a wide audience of all ages, not just fanboys.

See Narnia, Independence Day, Forest Gump, Nemo, Shrek, Sixth Sense, etc....


The PT was watched by many people, and more than once.

Even if all SW fanboys watched a PT flick 3 times each, it would only clear 100-120 mil in the U.S.

The other 150 Mil HAS to come from general audiences, some who went to see it again.






This changes none of our opinions or reasons for either liking, hating, or having mixed feelings of the PT of course.

As SW fans, we have our own personal feelings and logic towards these films.



But I wanted it to serve as a reminder to those that feel they were "failures" or "critical-flops" or "despised by the general public" that just because you may feel that way, it doesn't mean that the non-SW fan public did.


In fact, quite the opposite.



Carry on, then.

No member of the general public I know has said they despire the PT, they just hold the view that the OT was far better. It's like, the magic has left Star Wars for them.

To most people in fact.

well yes thats the unavoidable slant in a survey such as this. only true fans of either the OT or the entire saga are going to stumble upon this thread. but thats ok. still interesting that 7 out of 19 so far consider the PT at the same caliber as the OT

I meant, that TPM is the most grossing SW movie in the world, it almost reached a billion dollars.

OK...

Wow, a sinking ship, a crazy old woman, and Popsicle Jack beat out every Star Wars.

notice how lord of the rings is the only one to gross more with every sequel

Yup... well done, Peter Jackson.

Peter Jackson is fat.

Not anymore.

Rely, he lost weight, which diet did he use, the Atkinson's.

Dunno, but he's thin now.

o rly?

Yup.

http://www.xbox360fanboy.com/media/2006/02/peter_jackson_talks_kong2.jpg

He looks like a Super Hero.

He is.

I personally really like the PT as a whole.

Why?

Umm, cuz it's three more movies set in the SW universe?

Because it's the story of vader and the Empire coming to power?

Because it has incredibly improved action sequences and lightsaber duels?

Because it's incredibly epic?

Because of the phenominal acting?










Well, 4 out of 5 ain't bad.

The OT has the same 4/5 imo.

Originally posted by exanda kane
As a closing comment, I'd like to ask you again, do you seriously consider the worst of the PT to be superior to any of these films? Even when the other films mentioned include a great deal more talent, direction and focus than even the best of the PT?

I actually do believe that the worst of the PT (either Attack of the Clones or the Phantom Menace) was far better than the 5th Element (which I believe isn't that good of a film at all), Alien (quite possibly the most overrated Sci-Fi movie), and Blade Runner (I've seen it and I don't know why it's so "good".

Blade Runner was so very exciting just because of the image of the future that it presented.

Blade Runner...ahhh.... well that is a true cult classic: you either hate it or love it. I understand the haters, but I love it!

Me to.

No one can help if people rate Alien higher than it deserves, people do it with the PT; but lets face facts here, Alien, and its first sequel, Aliens are still great films as is Blade Runner.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Umm, cuz it's three more movies set in the SW universe?

Because it's the story of vader and the Empire coming to power?

Because it has incredibly improved action sequences and lightsaber duels?

Because it's incredibly epic?

Because of the phenominal acting?


this is what i mean. has the world gone mad? when has a film ever been celebrated as on of the greats in spite of bad or at best-dry acting? (unintentional camp excluded) you all know i blame lucas' sub-par directing and not the cast of extremely versatile and able actors, but the fact remains that the end result, regardless of fault, is unconvincing and wooden characters. only the unconditional love and loyalty of life-long fans could begat such lunacy.

I always say this:

Lucas made the OT with a lot of restrictions, and I mean a LOT!
He made the PT without mentionable restrictions.

So why did the PT turn out as it did?

Originally posted by queeq
So why did the PT turn out as it did?

Originally posted by queeq
Lucas made the OT with a lot of restrictions, and I mean a LOT!
He made the PT without mentionable restrictions.

Yes?

Originally posted by Schecter
this is what i mean. has the world gone mad? when has a film ever been celebrated as on of the greats in spite of bad or at best-dry acting? (unintentional camp excluded) you all know i blame lucas' sub-par directing and not the cast of extremely versatile and able actors, but the fact remains that the end result, regardless of fault, is unconvincing and wooden characters. only the unconditional love and loyalty of life-long fans could begat such lunacy.

Excatly why only ANH is the only Star Wars film that could even be remotely considered as a great film.

Originally posted by Alliance
Excatly why only ANH is the only Star Wars film that could even be remotely considered as a great film.

whatever, lucas was a completely different and more agreeable person in 1976. (plus he had much help from alec guinness in regards to motivating actors)

Originally posted by Alliance
Excatly why only ANH is the only Star Wars film that could even be remotely considered as a great film.

So explain to me then why ESB ranks in the Top Ten Best films on IMDB?

Me thinks Alliance is fed up of us parading ESB. He's become delusionsal. First, it was the clone welfare commity, now this! :P

Aye, both ANH and ESB are regarded as classic, great movies.

ROTJ less so, but it's with the other two, which make it better by association.


I've no illusions that the PT will be seen as great, classic films but I do believe that ROTS on it's own is seen as a : "really good" star wars film.


It may be remembered on a few lists at some point, who knows?

Originally posted by Schecter
whatever, lucas was a completely different and more agreeable person in 1976. (plus he had much help from alec guinness in regards to motivating actors)

Certainly Guiness was a titan in that movie. I think his acting alone makes Kenobi one of the most interesting figures in the Saga. More intersting than Anakin imo.Originally posted by queeq
So explain to me then why ESB ranks in the Top Ten Best films on IMDB?

Because people don't have taste? I dunno. i don't really try to explain pop decisions. ESB can never take ANH's position in history or society.Originally posted by exanda kane
Me thinks Alliance is fed up of us parading ESB. He's become delusionsal. First, it was the clone welfare commity, now this! :P

Parading would go under the category of over-glorification.

I like ESB a lot. Its not my favorite. Thats my opinion. I don't think warrants the obsession it gets.

I like clones a lot, thats no secret, and I've written several lengthy posts on why i think they are fascinating.

I'm not denying that Blade Runner, Alien, and Aliens are decent films, but personally, I wouldn't say great.

Part of it might be that I'm 17 years old and some of those films are dated to me, therefore, the things that made them good back then don't apply to now and they don't apply to me.

Blade Runner was an alright film. I'm a huge sci-fi fan and I really like Harrison Ford, so I thought I'd like it a lot more than I did. It presented a grim future (which I've seen/read many times) and added a slight twist with the Androids. I don't love the film or hate it, I just don't think it's very good. I'd rate any of the PT films ahead of it anyday.

As for Alien... MOST BORING FILM EVER. Alright, that's a bit of an overstatement, but honestly, I've seen the film twice and both times I just about gave up. I'm not an ignorant guy who can't appreciate a solid plot-driven film that's a little (or a lot) slow, but Jebus, this one didn't have much going for it.

I did enjoy Aliens, however.

Originally posted by Alliance
Certainly Guiness was a titan in that movie. I think his acting alone makes Kenobi one of the most interesting figures in the Saga. More intersting than Anakin imo.

agreed, but the point i was making though was that guinness served as inspiration to fisher, ford, and hammill, and likely pushed them to discover their character, rather than simply uncle george forcing dialogue into actors who seem to have no motivation other than "look sad" "look angry" "look happy". that much was clear in the documentary. they might not have come off as such deep characters without his guidance imho.

i dunno i thought only Hammil was inspired by Guinness
they got on well away from acting too during the Tunisia shoot
i know that the minor english actors were influenced by Guinness in signing up for SW because they thought if Guiness was in the flick it must be ok because he wouldnt "be in any old rubbish".


Its funny how the PT resembles Anakin/Vader - something that was once good,fun with heart now replaced by something cold,technical and without barely any feeling with Lucas The Emperor distant answering to nobody

Originally posted by Schecter
agreed, but the point i was making though was that guinness served as inspiration to fisher, ford, and hammill, and likely pushed them to discover their character, rather than simply uncle george forcing dialogue into actors who seem to have no motivation other than "look sad" "look angry" "look happy". that much was clear in the documentary. they might not have come off as such deep characters without his guidance imho.

I agree.

I appreciate Lucas' search for no name actors (Ford wasn't quite so at the time) because its easier to identify the actor with the character.

Unfortunately, you get undeveloped actors. You need someone like Guiness to Pull that role.

McGregor did well, hes just no Guiness.

An excellent post on a similar topic by a member of TF.N:


"Regarding the point of the thread...the originals will always be remembered, especially A New Hope...it was the film that changed the movie industry after all.

As for the prequels, I think they'll be remembered as being part of Star Wars, but I don't think that this generation will look back on them the way people who were around in '77 look at the originals.

As for future generations...well only time will tell.

There is the general idea with ANH that it didn't just change movies...it changed the way movies are made. And I think on a technical side, the PT will be remembered the same way...remember, Jar Jar and Watto came before Gollum.

The PT has some cool action, it was a lot of fun and had a great story, just like the OT, however, in a world where blockbusters are a dime a dozen, people have tended to focus on negatives more than positives.

Remember when TPM came out and people complained about all the politics? the pay off for that came in ROTS with the declaration of the Empire, but it didn't matter. The fact that Lucas has managed to create a true trilogy (as opposed to the OT which was essentially ANH...and then the sequels) has gone unnoticed.


I like what Cryo posted: "And I see TPM in a new light today. It is the light of irony and allusion. I could elaborate, but people will only argue over particulars, even though these particulars may be enough to blow people's minds. It all rests in the dialogue. Yes: the dialogue, the very thing Lucas is supposed to suck at. For example, when the Queen (as Padme) says to Anakin, "We are sure her heart goes with you," this is now a clear allusion to ROTS where Padme dies and effectively gives her heart to Anakin. All manner of lines in TPM have fascinating depths like this. When Sio Bibble tells the Queen that Palpatine will need her help, he doesn't realise the full extent of his remark: that Palpatine will certainly need her, not simply to plead her case, but to get elected as Chancellor, and to help turn Anakin. Then there is a casual line by Yoda: "Young Skywalker's fate will be decided later." And indeed, it was decided later: in Palpatine's office when he became a Sith, and even later still above a sanctuary moon. The saga is profound in all sorts of ways. But this all needs time to sink in. One day, maybe it will. "

^^^Cryo mentioned the lines of dialogue in TPM that reflect on later events...the PT has so much depth to it, but people refuse to acknowledge it...either that or they just don't want to look.

ANH is my favourite movie...as far as I'm concerned it's the greatest movie ever made...and a lot of others feel the same way. Others like Empire more...generally speaking ROTJ tends to be overlooked...now I love ROTJ, I love all the films...and between 1977 and 1983, people experienced a phenomenon...they saw their dreams come to life. Things that seemed impossible were shown on the big screen.

When the prequels came around, people expected another OT...they expected a Han Solo character, they expected the "used future" look. Lucas delivered a story that said "this is how the galaxy becomes a used future, this is what happens that makes Solo-type characters appear later on". But it didn't matter. The idea of progression...evolution of the story and the state of the galaxy was ignored.

It seemed as if people wanted a clone of the OT. And I really think that's unfair.

Yes, there are flaws within the PT...but there are also flaws in the OT.

I think that, because there are so many blockbusters now, compared to '77 when there was none (Jaws had been a few years beforehand) the prequels won't be remembered individually the way the originals are.

However, in 30 years, I think people will look at the saga as a whole. I think it will be used in film schools to show the evolution of how films are made. Like The Wizard of Oz, the saga will be shown at Christmas every year...films for the whole family to sit around and enjoy.

As long as there is cinema, Star Wars will have a place, not just three films from the late 70's and early 80's, but as a saga, a story spanning 6 films and a couple of generations. "

I'll read it later 13

Originally posted by sithsaber408
There is the general idea with ANH that it didn't just change movies...it changed the way movies are made. And I think on a technical side, the PT will be remembered the same way...remember, Jar Jar and Watto came before Gollum.


But Gollum was soooo much better. This is where things are different in a way. In the 70s and 80s no one could do what ILM did. Now there are much smaller companies that do a better job than the great and powerful ILM. I think LOTR in these days changed more for movie history than the PT did: it showed an impossible book can succesfully be made into very good films. What did the PT show? That computer game graphics can make money as movies?

I am not reading all this.

Originally posted by sithsaber408

I like what Cryo posted: "And I see TPM in a new light today. It is the light of irony and allusion. I could elaborate, but people will only argue over particulars, even though these particulars may be enough to blow people's minds. It all rests in the dialogue. Yes: the dialogue, the very thing Lucas is supposed to suck at. For example, when the Queen (as Padme) says to Anakin, "We are sure her heart goes with you," this is now a clear allusion to ROTS where Padme dies and effectively gives her heart to Anakin. All manner of lines in TPM have fascinating depths like this. When Sio Bibble tells the Queen that Palpatine will need her help, he doesn't realise the full extent of his remark: that Palpatine will certainly need her, not simply to plead her case, but to get elected as Chancellor, and to help turn Anakin. Then there is a casual line by Yoda: "Young Skywalker's fate will be decided later." And indeed, it was decided later: in Palpatine's office when he became a Sith, and even later still above a sanctuary moon. The saga is profound in all sorts of ways. But this all needs time to sink in. One day, maybe it will. "

^^^Cryo mentioned the lines of dialogue in TPM that reflect on later events...the PT has so much depth to it, but people refuse to acknowledge it...either that or they just don't want to look.



i think some people are reading too much into casual lines
the only lines with relevance to future acts are "at last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi..at we shall have our revenge" and "as for you young Skywalker im sure well be watching your future with great interest" if i remember correctly
the others are just coincidence

as for WETA the cgi isnt always up to scratch there either in my opinion

It was better at least. And definately in characterisation, which basically really brings life to a character.

Heres a few words, in 1977 we had never seen anything like Star Wars before, so thats what made it sooooo good, Don't get me wrong I loved the PT too, i just think people went in to them with super high expectations and found they were disappointed. Let's face it the acting in the OT wasn't all that great either if you really think about it.

Not all of it no. But there's more to it: it was the most realistic sci-fi opera yet. The look: crispy clear, pale clours, a true fairy tale story about a Princess. It propelled the B-Movie to A-movie status. That was amazing. And comparing it to many sci-fi flicks from the 70s (incl. ST) I am still amazed how little dated it looks. Great effort there folks, don't deny it.

The documentary style itself was revolutionary with it's used future concept. GL really went dumb in the PT trying recreate the documentary style. Like in that scene in TPM where they leave Coruscant for Naboo and JarJar yells 'Mesa going home' - he purposely placed JarJar half out of fram to have that documentray style. I thought he'd gone crazy with that, like documentary filmmakers don't know how to frame a shot.

yip as much as i thought it was cool at the time the docu style filming of parts of the Clones attack on Geonosis looks out of place in SW

Originally posted by queeq
Not all of it no. But there's more to it: it was the most realistic sci-fi opera yet. The look: crispy clear, pale clours, a true fairy tale story about a Princess. It propelled the B-Movie to A-movie status. That was amazing. And comparing it to many sci-fi flicks from the 70s (incl. ST) I am still amazed how little dated it looks. Great effort there folks, don't deny it.

The documentary style itself was revolutionary with it's used future concept. GL really went dumb in the PT trying recreate the documentary style. Like in that scene in TPM where they leave Coruscant for Naboo and JarJar yells 'Mesa going home' - he purposely placed JarJar half out of fram to have that documentray style. I thought he'd gone crazy with that, like documentary filmmakers don't know how to frame a shot.

The cinematography was supurb.

Originally posted by vintageSW77
yip as much as i thought it was cool at the time the docu style filming of parts of the Clones attack on Geonosis looks out of place in SW

I heard that before. I personally kinda liked that, especially after hearing that the CGI guys made up most of that sequence. But the style does feel a bit like the Hoth battle in ESB. It's a bit out of place, with the little zip-zooms and stuff...I agree. But still.

I thought the placement of characters half out-of-time was ridiculous as a form to justfy the documentray style.

I agree with where LUcas was going. He wanted more drastic camera movements to emphasize the action of the war.

Some were a bit too dramatic...others were quite poetic.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
Let's face it the acting in the OT wasn't all that great either if you really think about it.

speak for yourself. i found the acting in the OT to be superb and far superior to most of the acting in the PT

Originally posted by Alliance
I agree with where LUcas was going. He wanted more drastic camera movements to emphasize the action of the war.

Some were a bit too dramatic...others were quite poetic.

He didn't make the drastic montage, the CGI guys thought this sequence up themselves, made it and showed Lucas. He accepted. And it's far from drastic, we see that kind of movement all the time. Heck there are movies where every shot is like that.

I'd give alot of things in Star Wars' favour, yet cinematography isn't one of them.

You'd say that to ANH?