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Takes place on Coruscant. All four have all their weapons and abilities. Who wins?

The NJO team.

Luke is stronger than Revan, and Jacen is stronger than Dooku.

Originally posted by zephiel7
The NJO team.

Luke is stronger than Revan, and Jacen is stronger than Dooku.

Luke alone

Team 1, easily, as much it pains me to say it.

How badly does Revan/Dooku get hurt?

This is the second time you've made a stupid thread to fellate your character. Try a more subtle approach. Anyways, Luke assrapes Revan and Jacen assrapes Dooku. Luke could do this on his own.

Dooku doesn't get assraped, he is an Aristocrat, he is well behaved and probably he is to old for Jacen.

Can Dooku or Revan by themselves beat either man?

Originally posted by LORDSIDIOUS01
Can Dooku or Revan by themselves beat either man?

I would argue that Revan could defeat Jacen. Luke would know that he'd been in a fight.

However, I don't think Dooku can defeat either. He'd probably give Jacen a run for his money though.

Team 1 easily.

According to the LotF series, Jacen is "second only" to Luke in terms of power in the Jedi hierarchy. He is superior to Kyp, Kyle, and everyone else. He nearly defeated a Force phantom of Luke conjured by Lumiya, that was said by both the omnisicient narrator and Jacen himself to be a "fair match for Luke".

Meanwhile, we know that Revan is less than RotS Yoda, due to the RotS novelization confirming that Yoda was "the most powerful foe the darkness had ever known" and Malak confirmed that Revan, as a Jedi, was stronger than Revan as a Sith. So, Yoda > Revan.

Luke would basically, ergo, wipe his ass with Revan. And so would Jacen.



Not really.

No, because Luke almost always defeats anyone he's pitted against.

Originally posted by zephiel7
No, because Luke almost always defeats anyone he's pitted against.

Thats true

I would respond, Zephiel, but it would be identical to Nai's own. Thus, it would be redundant and a complete waste of time. I will, however, add that LightSnake has proven that the contents of the RotS novelization was personally overseen by Lucas himself, according to an interview with Stover, and - as Nai so eloquently pointed out - Lucas's interpretation of what is canon and what isn't trumps not only your opinion, but the movies themselves.

The novelization confirms that Yoda was the strongest Jedi ever. Actually, he was the strongest "foe had ever known" which one could interpret to encompass anyone who had ever battled evil, or - more specifically - the Dark Side. This is established canon, and something you must unfortunately come to grips with.

Escape, I would have to disagree with you concerning Jacen tooling Revan. Granted, he fought a force phantom of luke, but you and I both know Luke was not giving his best. Furthermore, he is described as second to Luke in the CURRENT Jedi hierarchy. His knowledge, in terms of variety, trumps anybody in the SW universe but his overall knowledge isn't comparable to the likes of Sidious, Yoda, and Revan. So again, I don't see how Jacen would be tooling Revan anywhere.

NJO Luke does this by himself.

That does not surprise me. Everyone has a soft spot for Revan, these days.



There isn't any evidence of Luke intentionally holding back during the fight with Jacen (who he also recognized as a "phantom" and not the real Jacen). In fact, Betrayal says that Luke: "countered every blow and pitched attacks of his own".

Luke has never been an "aggressive" fighter (save for instances when he was either a.) using the dark side or b.) under Sidious's thrall), so I don't see what you mean to accomplish.



Right, and several members - especially with the amount of Skywalkers present - have shown far greater examples of "raw power" than any incarnation of the Jedi Order.



His knowledge is broader than theirs, yes. Certainly not as specific, but he is definately more of the cultured and enlightened warrior. In either case, knowledge isn't the ultimate deciding factor. Skill is.



Jacen is on par with LotF Luke. Revan is not. Revan isn't close. That's why he's better, and would tool Revan.

Edit: Shark's on. Be back either later or tomorrow.

While Revan and Dooku is a hell of a team, NJO Luke is the most powerful in Star Wars, and i would say Jacen is a close 2nd. Jacen and Luke win this.

Originally posted by Gideon
That does not surprise me. Everyone has a soft spot for Revan, these days.
If that's your outlook on it. I on the other hand, don't believe Revan gets enough credit, especially with more revelation about him in POD.




There was no evidence of Luke going all out was there? I have the book and I don't remember Luke having any trouble whatsoever with the force phantom.


Right, he was aggressive against the Emperor. Was he not as aggressive against the Vong when he slayed nearly an entire army? Again, I didn't see any description of him having any difficulty whatsoever with the force phantom.




Ok.... My point is Jacen is second in the NJO, nothing states he's second overall. And again, I don't see anything that would put Jacen's force abilities above Yoda or Revan, perhaps you c an list some examples of what makes him more powerful.




Are you insinuating that his skill is superior to the likes of Yoda and Revan, or are you just making the point that skill is the deciding factor? How much skill does Jacen have compared to those two exactly?




You are basing your argument on this ONE quote, that Jacen is a fair match for Luke? Come on Escape...Aside from that one quote, there is nothing that suggests Jacen is better than, or equal to Revan, or Yoda.

Well, then we're victims of "differing opinions". I think that Revan's "power" - for the most part - is well defined and well accepted by most of the KMC members, save for the few who are extremely stupid. However, he is certainly not as powerful as Jacen. He's less than RotS Sidious and Yoda.



Ah, I see. So, you acknowledge that there is no evidence of Luke restraining himself, so now you're asking for evidence of him going full out? This is becoming ridiculous, Darth Sexy. Surely you see the ridiculous nature of your rebuttal. Are we to assume that all instances where a "fight to the death" isn't defined, that the characters are restraining themselves?

I've offered you a quote that Luke countered Jacen's attacks and gave some of his own. I will also provide a quote for you that displays both of them barely evading wounds:

"he felt the skin of his left forearm pucker a little from the heat of a near hit, saw the Not Jacen's robes catch fire from an especially close thrust of Luke's... - page 351.

That quote is a goldmine: both of them were struggling and both of them were aiming to defeat the other.



Luke isn't normally an aggressive fighter compared to "reckless" Jedi or Sith Lords. Hell, Yoda - by far - is more aggressive than he is. Save for, again, a few instances, he is a complacent, defensive duelist.



I never said that Jacen was second "overall". He is the second most powerful Jedi in an Order whose upper echelon possesses far more "raw power" than any old incarnation of the Jedi Order.



I am suggesting both, and Jacen's skill is most decidedly superior.



You should know better, Darth Sexy. Quotes are conclusive, interpretation of "evidence" can be flawed and inconclusive. So, yes, when there is a quote - and it is, at least, mildly supported by other quotes or on panel evidence - I will support it.

Glentract earlier suggested that Luke was restraining himself in combat.

pg. 340 "The not-Jacen struck, a fast, powerful lateral blow that Luke met with little effort, without conscious thought. Not-Jacen's blade was immediately in guard position for an anticipated counterstrike, but Luke held back. "

I'm not pretending to have read this book, but it seems pretty damn obvious that when the writer chose to include "Luke held back" that he probably meant it.

He also mentions:

Pg. 351 "Well, I'm both sure what our disagreement is, but perhaps it could be settled by talking."

So he was not fighting as he would have with one of his other opponents; say DE Sidious or Shimrra, where everything hinged on the fact that he killed said opponent. This was of course, also his nephew, and we know that Luke is not possessed of the same ruthlessness that Jacen seems to be exhibiting lately.



Prove up Jessiah. One saber duel is hardly enough evidence to base a sound conclusion. Especially a duel as questionable as this one.

Originally posted by Gideon
Well, then we're victims of "differing opinions". I think that Revan's "power" - for the most part - is well defined and well accepted by most of the KMC members, save for the few who are extremely stupid. However, he is certainly not as powerful as Jacen. He's less than RotS Sidious and Yoda.
While he's not as powerful as Sidious or Yoda(I'd still disagree but canon statements prove me wrong), there's still nothing to suggest Jacen is more powerful than him.




Luke held back Escape, read the book. I didn't say prove Luke went all out, but it would make more sense of Jacen WAS a match for him as opposed to him taking it easy.




Read the quote from Zephiel. Not to mention, you have no idea what goes into a force phantom. For all we know, Jacen's force phantom was powered by the darkside of Bimmiel. While this is just an assumption, my point is we don't truly know what happens with a force phantom, while you're taking the fact that because Jacen fought Luke as a force phantom, he's a match for him.








And again, I disagree. You've yet to offer how Jacen is more powerful in the force than Revan, or saber combat.




And a "fair match for Luke" means what exactly? How can you base your argument on that? This isn't a conclusive quote like the ones with Yoda. You've yet to offer any evidence of Jacen's superiority over Revan.

Does Dooku stand a chance?

No he doesn't.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
No he doesn't.

LOL LMAO Why is that?

Because both Luke and Jacen are so much better then him.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Because both Luke and Jacen are so much better then him. Hey, he just want you to say that Dooku is worse than them, since he hates Dooku.

I bet he is laughing now, in his basement, where he still lives, with his mother.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
I bet he is laughing now, in his basement, where he still lives, with his mother.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
I bet he is laughing now, in his basement, where he still lives, with his mother.


Wrong thing to say. LOL LMAO

Hey, i was just joking.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Hey, i was just joking.


Sorry but I do not joke.

Why not, everybody jokes, are you telling me you don't have a sense of humor, thats sad.

He's too much of a highly educated and intelligent man to joke around. Joking is beneath him. Just like his ridiculous threads are beneath me.

Also note that Count Makashi is one of the two biggest Dooku fans on this site, and he says that Dooku doesn't stand a chance in this fight, so never say that everybody here just picks their favorite character to win ever again. Okay?

Originally posted by darthsith19
Also note that Count Makashi is one of the two biggest Dooku fans on this site, and he says that Dooku doesn't stand a chance in this fight, so never say that everybody here just picks their favorite character to win ever again. Okay? You won't say Maul>all too

Which means, what? He didn't follow up with an attack? That means that Luke "restrained himself" for the entire fight? I don't find that convincing.



The context of which only applies to a counterstrike. That's all it said, that instead of following up with a counterstrike (which Not-Jacen was prepared for), he didn't.



And Jacen engages in the banter as well; am I to assume, then, that Jacen was holding back, because he considered "talking it out"? If that is the case, then they were both holding back.



I've provided proof that Luke not only countered, but that he "pitched attacks of his own", culminating in him nearly wounding Jacen and Jacen nearly wounding him.



I would suggest finding Glentract and offering more proof. Jacen is second only to Luke in the Jedi Order, and above Kyp "I-can-move-a-black-hole" Durron. Where has Revan exhibited such tendancies?

It's safe to assume in this instance that Luke's stance on the fight remained the same throughout.

Originally posted by Gideon
Which means, what? He didn't follow up with an attack? That means that Luke "restrained himself" for the entire fight? I don't find that convincing.
I'm sure you can find different interpretations, but what it DOESN'T mean was that he was going all out, so I fail to see how Jacen is a "fair match for Luke", and how that quote alone renders him above Revan.






Do you know the properties of a force phantom Escape?



So because Kyp can do attack A, he's suddenly above Revan? I can argue that because Revan knew the thought bomb and was capable of unleashing a force storm(the one bane needed the brotherhood for), and that he knew a shitload of ancient sith techniques, that he is superior to both Kyp and Jacen.

It said also that Luke defended easily get against it.

That he held back and didn't decide to go on the offensive seems pretty evident that he was not hell bent on showing his "full fury", so to speak, on Jacen.




It's fair to assume that the context could have been set for the entire fight. If not, please provide proof.



If he does, and if you are asserting that this influenced the ruthless Jacen to be wary of hurting an opponent who he probably thought could easily kill him, then please, prove up.



From Glentracts quotes, such a state was reached because Luke was not yet fully sure on whether or not to "hold back."



According to Sexy, his position in second was only defined in the context of the NJO. I also want some proof that he physically moved the black hole.

I think I see the passage in Dark Tide. Apparently Luke helped the Yuzzhang Vong machine move the "void." So apparently it was the machine moving the void, and Luke was giving a bit of help not independently flinging the black hole across the galaxy.

From the novel Dark Tide:
The dovin basals devoted their efforts to sliding the void into place, which required both some lateral movement and shortening the arc over which the void would travel. As they brought it close to the vehicle, Luke pushed with the Force. Since the dovin basals were already tugging the void back toward the vehicle, they were not prepared to have the travel accelerated.

Luke helped the "dovin basal" push the void. He didn't start flinging it into them by himself.

I would imagine the same was for Durron, who for all intents and purposes is weaker than Luke. I also recall seeing that these voids were not quite of the stature of a full fledged black hole.

Didn't Luke manipulate black holes in the battle of Dantooine?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Didn't Luke manipulate black holes in the battle of Dantooine?

I believe this was the one. I haven't actually read the book though... if Luke actually manipulated a black hole by himself, it would be nice of anyone so inclined to post the evidence.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Didn't Luke manipulate black holes in the battle of Dantooine?

Zephiel's assumption is correct. The excerpt he posted regarding the black hole was at the Battle of Dantooine. Although, if you have actually read the book, zephiel, Luke has to use his energy to keep the void in place against the will and power of the dovin basals. It describes the event as such:

"Immediately the dovin basals started to shift the void to cover this new attack vector. Luke fed the Force into his hold on the void, thwarting them. Their pressure increased, and still Luke held it unmoving." (Dark Tide I: Onslaught, Ch. 32).

At the end, he 'let the void slip', however, he still had to manipulate it, and it wasn't like he just assisted in moving it. So, I don't know how you came to the conclusion that it he gave "a bit of help", when he wasn't even helping, and the dovin basals were working furiously to counter Luke's actions.

Also, dovin basals aren't machines, they're creatures.

Yup, I remember that part.

However, black holes are massive objects. I wouldn't imagine Luke would have to expend too much "force energy," so to speak, to keep these basals from moving the hole. To move an object - for all intents and purposes - of infinite mass would require a lot of energy, something that I reckon these creatures barely possess.

I personally would see the amount of energy Luke would have to spend to hold the hole in place was not that much, considering the black hole's mass itself was what was probably causing most of the difficulty.



Didn't they say something like - "they were not prepared for the acceleration"



Now that's ****ed up. They must be some beastly creatures.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Yup, I remember that part.

However, black holes are massive objects. I wouldn't imagine Luke would have to expend too much "force energy," so to speak, to keep these basals from moving the hole.

Then you'll probably remember this part as well:

"Luke stared at the Caamasi for a moment, trying to reply, but a wave of exhaustion crested over him and eroded his ability to think. He shook his head, then slumped back in the chair. The Force energy he had used to help the Yuuzhan Vong destroy themselves had drained out of him completely, leaving him limp and barely able to keep his eyes open. " (Dark Tide I: Onslaught, Ch. 32).

Indeed, the amount of power he expended was vast, and left him in an extremely fatigued state.



Uh, no.

They are made to do such, and manipulate energy. They can block 'laser bolts, as well as plasma bolts' with the voids they project. They're capable of nullifying the effects of deflector shields, and even have pulled a moon into the planet it orbits, which decimated both of them (as revealed in Vector Prime, during a conversation between Nom Anor and Da'Gara).

They're power is immense, and even in this case, they were several.



See above. Just to keep it in its position, he used a huge amount of energy, and was spent afterwards.



Yes, and this means what exactly?

He didn't 'help' them in any sense of the word, he was trying to destroy them. They were attempting to move the void back towards the vehicle, as it says, and when Luke cut off his connection to the black hole, it annihilated the Vong as they were applying their strength to pull it back.

As we know, when someone holds a door closed while another tries to open it with their full force, and the person who is keeping it closed lets go, the other usually goes flying (or falls backwards, rather).



They really are.

Hmm, I didn't bother to read that last part.

Well, its interesting to note that it was a tough ordeal for him...but it is certainly not akin to him actually moving an object of near infinite mass. This still does not exclude the fact that he was using the mass of the black hole to his advantage when he was preventing those things from moving it? How could he not?



Again, I must stress that even moving an object as massive as a moon into a planet is trite in comparison to the amount of energy required to move a blackhole. Negligible in fact. A moon is a definite mass, huge actually, but the mass of a black hole is theorized to be high enough to pull light into it. Hurling a hundred moons 100 metres would probably require far less energy than moving a blackhole by even an inch.



I would imagine, yes, that it would require tremendous amounts of energy. However, I am merely arguing that it would not be the titanic godly amounts as actually flinging a black hole towards them, since the black hole itself acts a source of near infinite mass to make it hard on those creatures to move. Luke must have expended a lot of energy, don't get me wrong, but not as much as I previously assumed.



Gotcha.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Well, its interesting to note that it was a tough ordeal for him...but it is certainly not akin to him actually moving an object of near infinite mass.

I don't recall saying it was, but your post states plainly that all he did was 'help push it a bit', when that's completely false.



1. How is the former sentence a question?

2. Treating it as it is: considering there were more dovin basals, no.



First, I'm going to note I'm no physicist (nor taken many classes regarding the subject), therefore I really haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Next, the dovin basals are used for the purpose of gravity manipulation. They move these voids around constantly, as noted on basically every occasion of which they appear. So, why would they 'barely possess' the power to control a void of which they create? The logic does not follow.

Finally, one dovin basal is enough to do such a feat of moving a moon into its body. Again, I must stress their colossal power, and the fact that there were multiple dovin basals at the Battle of Dantooine, who were striving to regain their command of the black hole.



Zephiel, it left Luke to the point where he couldn't even so much as open his eyes, or think. I don't understand what you're trying to say, as the basals were obviously larger in numbers, can move these miniature voids to block all types of oncoming fire, and create "gravitic anomalies" to the point where they can prevent any ship from hyperspace travel.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Why not, everybody jokes, are you telling me you don't have a sense of humor, thats sad.


I do have a sense of humor. Nobody talks about my family

Yup. Like I said, I was skimming through countless pages of poorly conceived plot devices before I came upon the passage, so I was a bit fatigued, if you know what I mean.



It was just to indicate I was curious. Like I said before, I am not too familiar with the source material. And I'm tired.



In short, black holes have a lot of mass. To accelerate a mass would require a lot of force. To move something of near infinite mass would require a near infinite force and hence near infinite energy (infinite amount of man power). From my admittedly limited perspective (since I have not read the books), it seems that the two contenders (Luke and the basals) were fighting for the control of the black hole. Luke however was only trying to keep it still, so he would not have to worry about imparting an acceleration (at least on the level of what the basals had to do) on the mass (black hole). All he would have to do is "siphon force" - I suppose - to increase the already considerable inertia of the black hole (wow, I sounded like a nerd.) The basals however, would have to actually accelerate the mass at a far greater rate, hence they would have to impart more energy than Luke would have to spend.

I apologize if I sound like a raving madman, but like I said, I had to sift through pages of some of the most DBZish material I've ever read, and here in Ottawa its past midnight.



Whether or not they create it, it follows that they would still be subject to the burden of carrying it, right? If I were to consume, on a daily basis one hundred pounds of fat, and gain say, 200 pounds worth of weight, I would suffer the consequence of lifting those extra two hundred pounds of weight. This analogy may be a little "rough around the edges," but it still conveys some semblance of the idea, which is a fair assumption.



How many? Again, I remain unconvinced with the facts presented thus far that moving a blackhole would have been an easy feat for them, especially considering that independently moving a black hole would require far more energy than moving a moon. I have my reservations in accepting that these things could "easily generate the required energy to move a black hole," without a quote that proves that there was little effort - which, the very concept, is hard for me wrap my mind around.

I'm pretty sure you got the idea, but if someone was barely dragging 1000 pounds, and if I jumped on the mass, they would probably not even be able to budge it.



My initial purpose with the posts was to illustrate the idea that Luke "moving black holes" wasn't really accurate. In this specific circumstance, it may of been a difficult feat for him - but it certainly isn't like actually moving a black hole say 100m.

I was not implying that you suggested he did, though, and I agree with the majority of your points that it would have been a trying affair, and very few in the SW universe could even attempt it.

I'm not even going to bother addressing the entirety of that reply, seeing as your misinterpreting my position. Once you realize that I didn't claim it'd be an 'easy' feat, nor something that would require 'little effort', then we'll start discussing the matter. I'm saying that it isn't as extremely difficult as you made it out to be, which is true. Hell, it's not even that hard from what we know, a mediocre amount of power would be used, at best.

You made an assumption that they "barely possess" the ability to move them (and bolded the 'barely', indicating you believe that its intensely demanding). That's simply not true, and every single shred of evidence I've provided suggests that they do have the capabilities to do such (even the most obvious one where one can do it on its own. Wow, how is that not convincing?), and it's not as if they employ the upper limit of their ability. I never denied that they don't exert themselves, but it's not as if they just have enough energy to manipulate them. So, try again. I simply do not like to argue when my statements are being taken out of context.



Even after Luke let go of the void itself, they had to reposition it, and still had enough energy to do so. Whereas after Luke pushed it, he couldn't even think, nor had the strength to so much as open his eyes. Nothing indicated that the dovin basals had any problems controlling it when Luke's power was not projected onto the black hole itself.



And this makes your logic follow how exactly? Oh, right. It doesn't.

They 'barely possess' the capabilities to maneuver these miniature black holes, but they don't actually get worn until the void contains energy such as that of proton torpedoes? In what world does that make sense?

One still is able to move a void, even while absorbing fire (which causes even more vigorous usage of power).



I don't believe it gives an exactly detailed account of the number of dovin basals present, but the definite number isn't the actual point. It's the fact that there was, at the very least, more than one. Now, considering that one by itself can move the void that it projects, I'm going to say that it'd be even less strenuous with two (again, the absolute minimum) dovin basals.

And if I said that, I'd be correct.



You're stuck on this one feat? Why? Did you miss the sentence that says "they move these voids around constantly, as noted on basically every occasion of which they appear"?



And your quoting what exactly? Something I never said or implied?



That's a rather faulty analogy, because they aren't "barely dragging" the black hole. If they are, why don't you prove up? I've provided sufficient evidence that suggests otherwise. And therefore, I'm not going to bother typing, or finding new things that show they don't apply nearly their full strength.

Alright Advent, like I said, I'm not too familiar with the material, but seeing some of your points, I do agree with what you said. However I am slightly confused as to your position. I think you think that it does take effort for these things to move the "voids," but it wouldn't pose too much of a difficulty right?

If you could answer these two questions, it would be helpful in seeing the capabilities of these things, and help clarify Luke's feat.

1. Did the NJO books explain how exactly these basals are moving the "void?" Are they actually "muscling" it around, or are they manipulating the field in some way that they wouldn't have to use as much effort in carrying it?

2. Are the voids themselves of the stature of a full fledged black hole? I remember skimming through some material that said they were not quite as "big." If they were smaller, the feat would not be equivalent to using TK to "move" a black hole. I've heard from Wookiepedia that the maximum these "voids" could pull were "small planets," so they wouldn't be as powerful as a blackhole.

3. Luke never actually moved these "voids" according to you, right?


On a side note not directly related to the argument, these basals were definately powerful in that they could move planetary bodies like moons. However their power isn't quite as high as what I thought it was, since Bane himself was capable of nudging moons in much the same way.

Casually too, while riding on the back of a flying beast, it seems.

Originally posted by zephiel7
I think you think that it does take effort for these things to move the "voids," but it wouldn't pose too much of a difficulty right?

Exactly.

It may seem like I was arguing that they undemanding (such like when I state things like "they move them all the time", etc.), but you have to take a look at what I'm actually replying to.

1. If by 'muscling around' you mean like physically grab them, then no. They manipulate the gravity fields to maneuver the voids around, and other various things (such as to stop hyperspace travel, and the like).

2. No, they are described as "miniature black holes". So, you're right. I'm not quite sure what this has to do with what I said, though. It only pertains solely towards what you're talking about, in that the feat isn't as remarkable as it has been said to, but I wasn't really trying to go into that.

3. Actually, he did. I missed the part in the book where it says that "Luke pushed with the Force", as they were in the middle of bringing the void back near the vehicle. Now, in that part of the situation, Luke would've had assistance (and it wouldn't have been as hard as just flinging it into them) due to the fact they were already "tugging the void back".

And, there's a difference between 'nudging' a moon, and actually being capable of pulling a moon into its larger celestial body.